Gay guys, the Lower East Side, and persuasive fiction

Gay guys, the Lower East Side, persuasive fiction, Confessions, and testing a different mic, which I think I don't like

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, hello, hello. I'm just testing things out over here because welcome. Actually, first of all, let's back up. Let's back up and get a welcome out there up top because you all deserve that. Because I deserve that. Oh my goodness, I just hit something. I just hit something. You know what I just hit? I hit this microphone that I I bought a long time ago for the purposes of a podcast that was just a dream in my brain. A glint in a glint in an eye? Glimmer in my eye. Something like that. I don't know. I didn't know I didn't I didn't know what was going on. But um I'm experimenting. You know, as we've established with this podcast, it is experimental. It is experimental. Hello, new listeners. Hello, new listeners. I I I see the numbers. I see the numbers rising. I know we have new listeners here, so maybe maybe just to reiterate and explain explain what's going on in this in this strange place that you find yourself in. Um this is first a podcast of things I don't like and things that I do like. And if you if you want to dig into the concept, you know, go back to episode one. I lay it out. I lay it out. It's it's it's it's all about it's all about the philosophy behind this endeavor. But um Things to know. It is a no-effort podcast, so it's all one take. There's no preparation, though you know I jot things down. I jot things down and I think. I think because thinking is preparation. Right? Thinking is work. Thinking is work. And you know, uh canonically, I use my wired headphones to my phone with a little microphone on there. I assume that's where it is. And that's it. But today is different. Today is a revolution. Today no, today is just an experiment. We're just trying new things. We're just that's how things are here. They're fun, they're loose, they're fancy free. They're fancy and they're free, right? Because this is free. And I guess it's not fancy, but it's unfancy free. And I don't know. I just it's worth a shot. I have this microphone. I you know, I used it for a much more professional podcast that I appeared on that should be coming out in a few months, and it was really great, and it was really fun, and I'll tell you all about it when it's out. Don't worry, stay tuned. Um, but you know, I figured that this person who has a much more professional endeavor and a large following and an edits, you know. This person edits, this person has musical intro and stuff like that, all the ads, I believe. No, I think they're on Patreon. Anyway, it's more professional. I figured I would step it up and use this microphone. It caused me a host of headaches, to be honest. I don't know what was going on with IT, Mercury, Saturn, one of those planets or something. But you don't need to know all about that. That's behind the scenes, even though we are behind the scenes. Here, we like to take you behind the scenes of my life. But one of the things about this microphone is it's hardwired, or I hardwire it into my laptop, which is ancient, and I can't take you around the house like I usually do. You know, usually, again, for new listeners, up top we have we have putter patter, one of our segments here, one of our beloved segments. And you know, I give you some patter while I putter around, but I can't do that with this laptop and this microphone. It would just be real clunky. It wouldn't be natural, it would not be authentic. It would be performative puttering. And that's not what we're about here. It's okay if that's what you're about there, because this podcast is not about hating. This is not about yucking yums. This is just about patter, I guess. It's just pattern. It's just patter, it's just thoughts. It's just thoughts against the wall, you know. We like to throw 'em. Ashwagandha tea. Sorry. Sorry for the drinking noises. Though maybe that's what we like. I don't know. I don't know. What is going on with gay guys? That is really the first thing that's really been on my mind. Because you know, last week I talked a lot about straight people, straight culture. I established that Summer House is my colonial Williamsburg. Because it's a window into the the quaint backwardness of of straight culture. And I'm gonna lie down. I'm on my bed, by the way, as we're doing this. I'm in the I'm on my bed in sweatpants. Oh no, there's a little stain on my sweatpants. I'm a mess. I'm a mess. Um. But I'm on bed. I'm on my bed in sweatpants, cozy. It looks like it's maybe raining outside, it's so it's very cozy. It's still a little chilly out, you know. Summer weather is not here yet. Thank goodness. It was cold this weekend. I was out all Saturday walking around with my friend, dear friend. It was cold. Um gay guys. We went to a gay guy party on Saturday. And that was nice. That's not what this is about. It didn't cause a crisis. But just thinking, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, we don't want to be, I guess, heterophobic or whatever. Whatever, make it seem like straight people are all the problem. No, they're not a problem. Gay people aren't the problem either. But what is going on with gay guys? I think specifically what I'm talking about, what's maybe really the most on the brain, is gay guy bodies. What's going on with gay guy bodies? And you know, body beautiful, of course. Of course, up top. Get that out of the way. Body beautiful. But, you know, and this is something that I've been thinking about for a long, long time, as I have ranted at to more than one date. I am obsessed with steroids. Not in the sense that I want to do them, but I'm just obsessed with the fact that so many people are doing them and not talking about them. Well, have not been talking about them. Now, over the past year, you know, there's been this peptides explosion. Everyone's talking about peptides. I think from like, what, GLP1 and all that stuff. Now, peptides are a fair game to talk about. But I have been tracking to no one's interest what gay guys are doing to their bodies. Because gay guys are doing so much to their bodies. I feel like there's a point where if you're especially well, there's an echo in here. There's an echo. These words are important, these words carry weight. If you're a gay guy, or really if you're any guy who goes to the gym and works out, I think there is a point in your workout evolution where you realize how many people are doing it. Used to be steroids, maybe I think it's still kind of is steroids, but it's the peptides, it's the testosterone, because you can work out, work out, work out to your heart's content beyond it, beyond your heart's content, and you're not gonna get the kind of body that those guys are getting, casually, easy, little effort. You know what I mean? They're they're getting these bodies out of 40-year-olds that look like they're 20, you know? It's these these guys who are turning their who are middle age and have the bodies sort of of like a 20-year-old football recruit in Nebraska or something like that. You know what I mean? Like it's very weird, it's very not natural. And there's something there's like an uncanny valley, there's just an uncanny effect. Get rid of the valley, ditch the valley. It's just uncanny, period. Because yes, ostensibly the bodies do look like that 20-year-old football recruit, but in other ways, they don't. And I I now, you know, I think with the peptide stuff, people are becoming more open about the other effects. Where it's like the skin thickens, there's the increased uh blood vessels to the skin, so the skin gets that kind of strange ropey kind of look after a while, and there's like I don't know what's going on. There's something with the Tans. There's something with the Tans. Like, when I first started going to my gym, my fancy gym in Soho, which I'm not even gonna name because I don't want them to hear that I'm talking about them, and I do feel like they are that kind of gym that would ban me um for talking about them. And it's it's a lovely gym, and I don't want to get banned. But when I first started going, when I first started going, I noticed that all these guys were really tan in the middle of the winter, and I was like, oh, I guess because you know, this is in Soho and these guys can't afford to travel in the middle of winter a lot, I guess, to like, you know, tropical locations or whatever, and they get really tan. But no, no, no, no. I don't think that's the case, and now I'm vindicated years later that I'm seeing something about how I don't know, something about the blood flow to the skin, the pigmentation. I know there are also peptides now that are promoting tans, so maybe they're just taking those peptides to promote tanning. Now I'm getting Instagram ads for that. Years ago I was not, years ago no, even though I was, as I say, obsessed with trying to figure out what's going on there. Um so there's the tanning thing, there's there's weird skin things, and like the body fat gets so low, like they have such little body fat, but there's muscular, but the skin is thick, and the veins and it's tan, and it's like you're 40. You're 40, and that is not what a a 40-year-old's body looks like, and it's not really what the 20-year-old's body looks like either, I guess is what I'm saying. You know, there is a difference, you know, from afar, or maybe on a small screen, you know, a little Instagram picture, you don't notice all that stuff. But when you really stare at these people, as I guess I'm doing at the gym, hashtag creepy, sure. Label me. Label me. It's fine. Just don't tell my gym. Um when you really stare at these these bodies, you really start to notice that there's something off. There's something there's something going on there. And it's a little it's a little unsettling because what is the goal, I think, is the thing. What is the goal? What do muscles signify anymore? Okay, boom. This how's that for putter patter, alright? Boom. What do muscles signify anymore? Let's think about that. Because I feel like when I when I was wee, when I was a young person, muscles signified kind of virility, athleticism, strength, an active lifestyle. You sort of associate it with someone who's doing a lot of physical labor, maybe, or who's an athlete in these sort of traditionally masculine commanding roles that required not just maybe confidence, you know, and it's part of the mythos. Probably obviously this is all like whatever, but um, you know, it is associated with people who are commanding, who are affable, team players, you know, the lumbering jock, that sort of hunkiness, you know, that's those hunky traits, hunky, attractive masculine traits, you know, strong but silent, you know. That's what muscles seem to signify because that's what I think generally was what was required to get you muscles. You know, you had to actually be the athlete, you had to be the masculine working man or whatever. Now, now, no, that is not the case. You know, and obviously back then there were the steroids, and you could do them, and I think a lot of people did do them, but I think the steroid body as it used to be, those old steroids, the classic steroids, produced a different kind of body than what we're seeing now with the peptides and the testosterone and the other steroid varieties and blah blah blahs. They're producing something that looks a bit more natural, at least in the beginning. At least in the beginning. Oh, there's so much I need to say. Because I feel like in the beginning, the first couple years, when you see these guys go on these things, the first couple years, they're posting up on Instagram, and half of anybody who has like a stunning Adonis body and posts on Instagram seems to go to my gym. So I see them at the gym, see them on Instagram, and for a couple years it's like, whoa, what? How is that possible? It's like, you know, they have the the perfectly inflated muscles that seem almost like digitally rendered, everything is so smooth and like, you know, there's no ridges, the skin is perfect, it's just taut and tight and supple, and it's like, whoa, you know, it's what you'd want. It's exactly what I think you would have in mind, you know, carved from marble, blah blah blah. But then after a couple years, I've noticed, you know, the wear and tear I do think starts to show, and that's where you get, you know, the thicker skin, the ropier veins, you get some, you know, um wear and tear on the skin, right? Um which is fine. I mean, I'm not casting aspersions at any of these people. Well, I guess I I guess I kind of. I guess I kind of am, but you know, I don't intend to. Like the beautiful bodies, body beautiful, you know, do what you want. And you know, I'm sure they all, you know, have many more Instagram followers than I do, and probably, you know, um many more people thirsting after them, and and that's great. So they're doing great, you know? Good on them. They're doing everything perfect. Um but I don't think the muscles really signify what they're used to anymore. Because you can have these marble sculpted bodies, you know, if before the steroid bodies were a little more obvious. Now you subtly have these marble sculpted bodies where you do really look a lot more like that 20-year-old football recruit, but you are a 40-year-old food influencer who lives in lower Manhattan, right? Do you know who I'm talking about? Because he goes to my gym. And it's like, what's going on? What like what are those muscles signifying anymore? Right? They're signifying that you're rich. I think that's the primary thing at this point because you have access to all of those, you know, performance enhancing. I don't even, it's not even performance enhancing, just body enhancing, what do we call them? I don't know. The peptides and everything, you have access to all of that. And I just see them at my gym, and they're obviously all rich and wealthy, and they have all this money, and they invested in their bodies to look a certain way, but I'm not sure what it's signifying. And it's so I think it's it's to me less sexy, right? Now it's now what it's signaling to me is that oh, you're kind of insecure, and that you are so insecure that you're willing to like mess with your body in ways that might not be safe, you know, or clinically untested and whatever, maybe you're doing some black market, who knows what. But it's it it that threat is outweighed by quashing your physical insecurities. And that's not sexy, you know, it's not sexy to be with somebody who's insecure in that way, in my opinion. And obviously, a lot of us, you know, are insecure about our bodies in many ways, and that's unavoidable, and I'm not saying that we're not sexy because we're insecure, but it's not, you know, a fantasy to be with somebody who's so insecure about their body that they try to patch it up in that way. You know, I think it's a lot sexier to be with somebody who's okay with being insecure with their bodies and can push through it and then becomes confident in themselves in other ways. You know, that's the kind of confidence that people are always talking about, that people are attracted to, right? So it's like it actually becomes kind of, or maybe it's becoming kind of a turnoff. You know, and it's also like I you see it on Instagram a lot now because you know, Instagram feeds all these people to me, you know, gay guy syndrome, and a lot of these guys, like the fitness influencers or whatever, the low-level OnlyFans guys, whatever, will do like these transformation uh side-by-side comparisons. You know, they'll be like, This was me five years ago, and I put in the work, and now I am where I am today, and like the body before is like oftentimes like a super skinny, super skinny guy with like no muscle mass on it at all, and you know, supposed to be so shocking, then now they're like this built-out Adonis, and it's like, oh, that's the the lack of confidence behind all this. Like, you really think that having that body makes you sexy, that that is the essence of sexiness. And I don't know, anytime that I've been with those guys in an intimate situation, and you feel that someone's not really comfortable with their body, um, or just isn't really comfortable with themselves, even if they have an amazing body, it's not sexy. It's not, I mean, not a controversial take, I feel like, right? It's just not that it's just not that fun, it's not a great time, it's not that pleasurable. Uh whereas when you know, when you're with somebody who seems much more confident in themselves and comfortable with themselves and at ease with themselves, I think that puts you, the other person at ease, it puts everybody at ease if you feel at ease, right? And then things become more fun and much more enjoyable. You know, it's not really about, oh my gosh, you have the you know, picture perfect abs or pecs or or whatever. It's more how does somebody make you feel in the moment? And so now I'm anticipating, oh, okay, if I see big muscles on somebody, they're not gonna make me feel good in the moment because the way that they've dealt with their insecurity is just by doing steroids, as opposed to, okay, they've resolved their insecurities and they feel comfortable with themselves in other ways, you know, or they've just feel comfortable with themselves. You can be insecure and just be comfortable with yourself, right? And I think that dissipates the insecurity. Um what is going on there? Or is it the end of muscles? I don't know. Obviously not, right? I doubt that. But there is some weird thing there now where I see a guy who has really ripped body, really ripped muscles, and I'm like, oh. I don't associate it with something hot anymore, and I get a little like skeptic not like it's not skeptical. It's like just it's not a it's almost a turnoff. It's a little like, ugh, yeah, you're just like kind of a weird guy. You're a weird guy, and you know, power to you, sure. I think you're gonna be fine, because you know, I think that's still celebrated and whatever, but but I don't know. I don't know what will happen to the gay community. What is going to happen to Fire Island? How will they deal with this at the Pines?

unknown 21:14

They won't.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Gay people love this. It just feeds in. It just feeds into gay culture. This is what gay culture is all about. It's really superficial, blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, gay guys. Gay guys are also so much about sex. What is going on? You know, 2026 I've decided year of connection. It's the year of connection, it's the year of connection, we're connecting. Um so part of that is you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm socializing, I'm out and about. You might have seen me. You might have seen me here and there. And you know, I hang out with with gay guys, and many, many gay guys the hangout becomes weirdly sexual very quickly, and I'm sort of like You know, a lot of gay guys love ya, love ya, love ya to death, but I don't want to have sex. I don't want to have sex with most gay guys. No offense to anybody. But gay guys really are so horny. It makes me think of Faggots. The book. The book. The book, not the slur, though the slur is the title of the book. The Larry Kramer. Larry Kramer Faggots, the novel that he wrote. It's not a great novel in many ways. It's yeah. He didn't he did not go on to become uh a novelist. But I'm glad he wrote it as a document. And there's a lot in there, you know, because this whole thing was about like in the like pre-Aid 70s when this book was written. It's a lot like gay guys are too focused on sex. Gay guys are too focused on sex. There's so much more that gay guys could do in the world and with each other if they just stopped focusing on sex all the time. And you know, that message I think became really controversial in like the 80s and the 90s because it was sex negative at a time when gay men were stigmatized for having sex with HIV and AIDS, and so I think there was a bigger push for sex positivity. I f not to say that we're at the time to be sex negative, but I think it's maybe the time to be a little sex skeptical again and be like, what's going on? What's going on, gay guys? Why so much sex all the time? What are we trying to accomplish? What are we what itch are we trying to scratch? It's not that I don't like sex, it's not that I don't like sex, it's not that I don't like sex, it's not that I haven't had plenty of sex in my day, in my time, but I guess I guess because I'm trying to do so much other stuff, it's like who has the time? And it's also like just talking to people and meeting people. I feel like sometimes, am I just a little Charlotte? Am I just a little Charlotte? I just like I don't always need to be so aggressively. It's not like cruising, but like there's you'll have conversations with gay guys where they're like sniffing you out or sniffing out the possibility of sex after the the conversation is over, or like at a future date, and it's like I just want to talk, I just want to talk, maybe hold hands. No. I don't want to hold these people's hands, who knows where they've been. Um yeah. I don't think that's necessarily immediately related to the bodies, like these gay guys I'm talking or have been talking with are not, you know, body fascists or whatever, but but I think it's related. I think it's related. These like I think the the idea of sex as as a pick-me-up or a way to solve problems, which, you know, on on some level I'm down with. I've always thought sex is free, sex is can be pretty safe, you know, and doesn't harm anybody, ideally, and doesn't harm the environment, it doesn't consume resources, it can be a really lovely way to feel good. Like in some ways, it's the ideal way, right? To do that. It it it it like you're not consuming anything, you're not harming anything. It there's no capitalist endeavor or whatever, you're free to do what you want, you know, under ideal conditions, obviously. But um but I feel like relying on it so much. I don't know if it's like sex addiction. I don't like I hate thinking of things of like addiction, but like what's what's what's this what is this focus on sex so much? Like, I don't know. I don't know that it needs to be there. And straight people, this is a this is a this is a be this is a queer people conversation, right? You know? You know, let's not act like if you're a straight person out there listening to this, that you that you get it. This is no, this is not for you to say that gay people are having sex too much or blah blah blah or whatever. Because, you know, as we established before, straight people are still stuck churning butter, you know, in in 1700. So you'll get there one day, straight people. You know, you'll get there one day. But um But don't don't go the don't go the gay guy path. I don't think the gay guy path is the right path. I think there's some real there's some real issues there. But I I love my gay guys. I love you. I love you gay guys Right? That's what I shout at concerts. This is for my gay guys, I love you. I do, I do, I think I I I do, I do, I do, but but we have work to do within the community. Right? Peptides, peptides and so much sex. Um maybe my punishment will be that I I can't I won't I won't be having sex ever again uh because I've said all these things. Um I have to say something. Okay, I'm because I'm looking at things I'm looking at things now because I'm in front of a laptop while I record this, so this is changing. This is this is changing how things the m the material conditions of this microphone are changing how how this this narrative unravels. Um Annie Orno is really big in the BDS BDS, the Israel uh movement, not BDSM. I realize hard pivot, sorry. Um so we put respect on her name. I know I really didn't like that book, but but good on her. Just need to get that out there. Um and the Lower East Side is becoming the West Village. What's going on there? You know, I was walking around. I was walking around Saturday and Sunday, being social, connecting. Connect- actually was really connecting, um hopping into shops, popping into shops on Sunday afternoon, and you know, meeting people, meeting people, striking connections, with friends, having fun. It was very uh West Villagey. It's I mean the West Village I've always known. So when I moved back to the city after COVID, because I was in New Jersey at my sister's house during COVID and coming back, I was choosing between the West Village and where I am now in little Italy because Manhattan rents were so much cheaper. And I remember the place that I was considering in the West Village as I was at the corner of the block, I could see two, I think it was Aritzias. I could see two Aritzias. I maybe it wasn't Aritzia. There's one of those other Aritzia-esque stores. And I was like, I don't know if this place is for me. If from one place I can see two, two Aritzia. You know what I mean? Like, one is one is plenty, one is potentially too much, two So this the whatever's happened in the West Village, the nightmare that it has become, I think, has been long in the works, and now I'm wondering if it's happening over here too. I'm I'm just wondering. The East Village is a nightmare, okay? Like west of Alphabet City, nightmare. I've been going to various places in the East Village, and like the uh one of my friends says it's the Murray Hill is really the epicenter of this culture. Summerhouse adjacent culture of you know, just like straight guy straight guys, and they just descend in packs of them into the East Village. 20-something straight guys, and it's just like uh like basic, you know, very basic straight guys. And it's not it's not the vibe. It's not the vibe, and I just worry about it creeping down here. I worry about it, these are things that keep me up at night. No, they don't. No, they don't. But you know, I thought one of my experiments could be with this podcast is going, taking taking you all out in the street, right? Just walking around with the headphones and seeing and and seeing what's out there, you know? I think that could be fun. I think that could be fun. Did it did I even have anything that I don't like in this? I don't know that I don't like, I'm just asking questions. We're just being we're just being interrogatory and not declaratory. How about that? How about that, Ben Lerner? Um and I think that's fine, we're experimenting, we're free flow. We're free flow. Um speaking speaking of fiction, speaking of writers. Speaking of writers, you know what I'm interested in right now? You know, we've been we were talking about the big books. We were talking about the big books. I I've slowed down on my infinite gist, but we're still working on that. If you don't get that reference, oh listen to the catalog, listen to the archive. Um I'm interested, I think, now in persuasive fiction. Persuasive fiction. That's uh what I'm playing with with the book that I'm writing now. And I think it is an interesting literary tradition. I'm thinking Saint Augustine's Confessions, which is so good. You know the thing is, is like the good books really are good books. You ever heard that? I think it's true. Like the classics are the classics for a reason. And obviously, there need to be many more things that are considered classics beyond white Western European stuff. Yes, period. Get out there, for sure. But uh The Confessions is really good. It's really weird. And it's persuasive autofiction, I guess you could consider it, because St. Augustine, his whole deal, he was a rhetorician, right? Which was like a big deal. There were like the what is it? When you would go to school in ancient Rome, that was like one of the things that you would study was rhetoric. Because that's how they did so much, and so much like um of the public life was spoken, right? You'd go down to the forum, you know, legal matters, it was all spoken, you know, it was I guess less text-based. Or is text written or I don't know. I don't know. You know, people were talking. People were talking back then, um, and so he studied rhetoric and he was a rhetorician. And so I think when you keep that in mind when you read and you see it as uh, I guess an evangelical text, it's supposed to convince you to convert to Christianity, basically. So, because like Confessions is a story of his life, and he starts out he starts out, what is he believing in Manichaeanism when he's young? And it's so it's so smart the way he sets it up because it really, you know, he was super smart, you know, he's the super brilliant person, and it makes you, if you consider yourself a smart person, you identify with him. Because like the one of the the early scenes is so he believes in Manichaeanism in the very beginning. I think that's what it is, and it's like um, you know, a very complex and convoluted theology that like the heaven has all these layers and like there's all these different things, and I think there's a lot of like numerology and stuff, and it's really complex. And so he was really into it, but he had all these questions, and he was living in North Africa, and the big Manichaean expert or whatever was traveling around, and so he went to his talk thinking, like, oh my gosh, I'm finally gonna have all my questions answered so I can really believe in this thing. This big rival religion to Christianity at the time. You know, everybody could have been Manichaean if things had gone differently. Um, and so he goes to the talk and he listens, and I don't remember even he asks the questions or whatever, but he's becomes disillusioned, and he says, you know, he looks at this expert talking and he realizes this expert has no idea really anymore what he's talking about than what St. Augustine, the young kid in the middle, you know, of whatever, just studying, understands, you know? And so he's like, oh no, this is all kind of a ruse. And so it sets you up for his whole conversion story, and it's so dramatic, where he he begs God to believe because he's he walks you through it, and his whole thought process, he's like, I just don't understand how this could be true, and he he gets you on his side if you're skeptical about Christianity. He's like, Yeah, skeptical about all these things that don't make any sense. Um, so of course I didn't really believe it, but I so badly wanted to, because I so badly wanted to believe in something. I just needed to believe in something. I felt so lost. So he sets you up there. If you're like smart and lost and young and and kind of arrogant, like you see yourself in him, and he finally does have his, you know, big conversion revelation. Um I mean, it makes it sound maybe a little more dramatic, but um, you know, he finally does become a believer. And it's just so it's it's like it's beautifully written, it's so dramatic. And it's persuasive, I think. And I think it's a huge element of reading it is that you have to kind of read it as someone trying to sell you on something and convince you on something. Not just that he's smart or believable, reliable narrator, but converting to Christianity. And he's really successful at it, right? I mean, classic work of literature, but then also Christianity takes over so much of the world, right? And part of that is because of him. And so I'm really thinking about that. Also, now, because you know, I I think I talked about it a little before, but Helen Hunt Jackson, a writer who who I learned about as I was writing Dream Facades, my book, and she was this magazine writer for a long time, and and later in her life she became galvanized to advocate for Native American rights in the 19th century, and she became politically active, and she wrote a nonfiction book that documented the um injustices, atrocities against Native Americans perpetrated by the US and its people. Um, a century of dishonor. And then when that didn't really have the big effect that she wanted, she wrote a fiction book that was trying to basically do for the Native American cause what Uncle Tom's Cabin did for the black American cause among white people, trying to arouse sympathies and outrage and indignation. And it didn't really work, but um I am fascinated by that it's not I it's a kind of persuasive fiction, I think. You know, I think you can call it political fiction, and you know, you know, on Twitter it's it's was brought up again this week. The whole the CIA was funding the IO writers workshop in the 1950s, you know, arguably with the goal of producing non-political fiction and changing the trajectory of American literature so that it wouldn't be so political and that it would just focus on interiority and individual people and emotions and feelings, you know, don't disrupt capitalism or colonialism or the American regime. And so, you know, people are again online people again online really getting behind MFAs, which I don't understand. Like I can understand, yeah, sure, like the fact that the CIA funded the Iowa Writers Workshop doesn't, you know, damn all of American literature, but like I don't like why why get so defensive about like MFAs and like MFA fiction? I mean like I think it's a I think it's a worth a conversation worth having that like uh so much American fiction has tried not to be political or tried to be political in more abstract ways and is really focused much more on I guess affect or emotional interiority and psychology, psychology, psychology, psychology, psychology has become so important to American fiction. Um and I think it's like why not question that, right? I mean, if everybody's sort of morose about the state of American fiction today, like why don't we, you know, give some other avenues a shot? We don't have to shoot everything down because they impugn the MFA system, which who cares about that? You know, it's just a little silly to me. Um But I think thinking about persuasive fiction has a time, you know? And I'm not saying that we all need to go out and write like agit prop or something, but I think it's worth looking at the tradition there and what does work, what doesn't work, what does it mean to work, what do you want to do? Um and just looking a bit more on on fiction that's that's been trying to do that, that tried to do that, writing, that's tried to do that. But specifically fiction, like what is fiction's role there? As a fiction writer who wants to live in a world where the US isn't bombing Gaza and Lebanon, albeit indirectly, and Iran directly. Um you know, I'd love for that not to happen. I don't know. Would love for the United States to not exist, really. I guess that's the thing. We don't really care about that existing anymore. And the stakes seem high. And so you're gonna write fiction that wants to engage the state of the world, and that's your agenda, that's your goal. Why not think about how fiction works with that? Like, why, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I'm again I'm not saying it has to be like super direct or clunky in there or anything, but just to think about it. Think about what is the relationship there, you know? It could be that writing about interiority and writing about individual psychology is a great way to engage with those questions. That absolutely could be. Um but I guess you still have to think about that, right? Right? I lit a candle earlier because I was thought this would be cozy vibes, and I think the candle is too strong. I'm really not into scented candles because the chemicals, and they always end up just like doing too much. Did you hear that? I blew it out. I slid it away from me. Yeah, I don't know. I'm curious to see what this podcast sounds like recorded on this microphone, if it's way better. Is it beautiful? Is it gorgeous? Is it everything we want in the world? Is it psychological? Is it political? Uh so we'll see. We'll see. I think that's it.

unknown 42:48

I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

I hope you're doing well. I hope you're lovely. I hope you're lovely, and you know what? I think that's it. Goodbye.