The Prelim Podcast I Episode 4 — Paul Hughen, ASC

Ever wonder how the massive action pieces in the Marvel Cinematic Universe or the high-stakes battles of Star Wars come together? It all hinges on the 2nd Unit—and we are sitting down with one of the absolute best in the business. 
In Episode 4, we are excited to welcome our friend and veteran cinematographer Paul Hughen, ASC, whose incredible career as a 2nd Unit Director of Photography has shaped some of the biggest blockbusters and premium television series of the last decade. From The Mandalorian, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan Kenobi,  WandaVison, and Stranger Things to The Avengers: Endgame movie and more, Paul pulls back the curtain on what it takes to visually match a main unit while bringing his own signature technical mastery to the screen.
In this episode, we dive deep into:
• The Art of the 2nd Unit: How to seamlessly integrate massive action, stunts, and visual effects with the primary director's vision.
• The Tech of a Galaxy Far, Far Away: Working on the cutting edge virtual production worlds of the modern Star Wars episodes and films.
• The Camera Department Journey: Paul’s advice for moving up the ranks in Hollywood, building collaborative relationships on set, and getting invited into the American Society of Cinematographers (ASC).
Whether you’re an aspiring camera assistant, a seasoned filmmaker, or just a massive fan of cinematic storytelling, this masterclass in visual composition and set survival is one you can't afford to miss!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Alright, everybody. Hey, thank you very much for uh coming back to the Pre Ven Podcast. Um This is usually a two-person show, but today it's just solo. Myself, Tony Muller, uh, my good buddy Pablo is on a commercial shoot, so he can't be here today. So uh it's just me, and we're gonna see how it goes. Uh today's guest is a very excellent guest, Paul Hewan, DP, has done such movies as Black Sheep Scream, Austin Powers, Dr. Doolittle to name a few, the latest Star Wars movie, Ride Along. I mean, the list goes on and on. Fast and Furious, Cowboys Aliens, Venom, Avengers. I mean, it's quite an impressive IMDB list from uh Paul Hewen, second unit DP. Paul Hewan, welcome to the Prelim Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thank you, Tony. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Oh man, this is so cool. I mean, we've we've had camera assistants, we've had operators, and now number one, first DP. Thank you very much. Really? Yeah, this is great. So uh pressures on. You know, no, no pressure. And I haven't seen any of those movies. No, you just work on them, and that's it. You know, it's it's funny. I haven't watched a lot of movies that I've worked on too. The very first movie I worked on, I didn't get a credit on. Oh, what was that? Uh, it was uh Ready to Rumble with a wrestling movie, Scott Conn, and uh it uh my parents sat through the whole thing, watched the whole credits, and then called me and said, You need to call the producer. Your name's not on the credit. I'm like, Mom, I can't, you know. Anyway, enough about me. Let's talk about you, Pa. Okay. Where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

I am from the great state of Texas. Okay. Uh grew up in Fort Worth, Texas. Went to school at the University of Texas at Arlington, studied film, film industry. And uh the rest is yeah. So uh as a kid you were always interested in, always. Uh my dad had a wind-up eight millimeter camera like most kids received, and uh I would wind it up and run around with it. And finally, after about a year, he said, let's put some film in that and see what you can do. So we loaded it up with uh, because you know, eight millimeter was it was a hundred feet, but you had to flip it over, and then uh photo mat split it down the middle and and hot glued it so you had a hundred feet of film, but uh it uh it was different than super eight. It's uh antique or um but uh it uh that that camera and then gradually moving up to super eight were really what uh got me started. And I was always into the bike chase and filming uh blowing something up with firecrackers. Okay. So action was sort of at 13, 14 years old.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, we're gonna get into the action part of your career a little later, but um go can staying in the early days, so your parents were very supportive.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Very uh and when I said, Oh, I'm gonna move to California, and they were like, You are? I was yeah, right now I'm going this summer and moved to California right after film school. Okay, and uh had just seen Raging Bull and loved Michael Chapman, taxi driver, his films to this day. Um, so I I get to Los Angeles and found an apartment with an old film instructor, moved in, borrowed the phone, he had a phone book, and looked up Michael Chapman. Wow. And cold called Michael Chapman, and someone answered the phone, a young girl, and said, Dad, Dad, phone call. So I hear his footsteps across the hardwood floor. Hello. I said, Michael, and he said, Yeah. I said, This is Paul Hugh, and I'm I'm an up-and-comer. I just moved to California. He said, Well, keep your feet. He, you know, he talked about the business a little bit, and I told him how much I loved his films, and uh he hung up, and that was it. Wow, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

And and um from that, how did you get onto a set? What was your first job in LA?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Uh the first job was a Roger Corman film. Uh it was called Galaxy of Terror. And James Cameron was the art director. And I was an electrician and I was up in the green beds, and I was putting the barn doors on a 5K and dropped them from the green beds. And they landed in Jim Cameron's cubby and just smashed to the floor. And the DP walked forward and said, Who dropped that? I said, It's me, Paul Hewitt. He said, Come down, you're in the camera department. So I came down the steps, and I think her name was Annie, his first, uh, the DP's first, and she said, Let me show you how to load my hex. And I loaded Mags, and I think that was in 8082, and that was it. And then met a Russian cinematographer, Misha Suslov, who passed a couple of years ago, and he took me under his wing as his loader, then I was his second, then I was his first, and um operated a little bit for him, but went to uh North Carolina on a slew of films, and thinking I was gonna be a DP, I started shooting and shot two horror films and realized I gotta go back. I gotta go back and learn some more, learn more about lotting than craft. You know, it's not just about dropping a barn door out of the green beds, right? And more involved in that. So um went went back to seconding and slowly just moved up the ladder until I was operating uh in '89 and started operating for a DP by the name of Peter Deming. And uh then in 93, he asked me when I was operating on a poly shore film called Son-in-Law, he said, go to this uh airport. There's a by-wing airplane, make it look like it's flying, and the pilot's looking down and the camera's pushing in. I had a flag creating a shadow, I had the prop going, so the hair comes back and the camera's touching as he pulls back. And I thought, hmm. So I go to Daly's and I'm sitting in Daly's, and uh the shot came up, and the main unit director for Peter said, uh, how did they uh get the camera attached outside the airplane? How did they do that? And that was it. So that was your first real second unit? That was the first second unit. Wow, that's fascinating. And it was two things as he pulled back, and the plane went like that, that flag dropped, and they were perfectly insane, and that sold it. And I realized at that point, look, look what we can do. Yeah, and so I shot second unit for Peter. Uh I was his operator on Austin Powers, but on Gold Member part three. Were you on Gold Member? No, not yet. In part three, um, I was his second unit TP. So we worked together for a long time, many, many years. Would he be considered one of your mentors? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Number one. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Number one. Nice, nice guy. Um for you when you were transitioning from loader to second to first to operator, out of those jobs, which was the hardest one for you to bump up to? The hardest one? Hard like was it was it hard going from loader to second? Was it hard going from second to first operator?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

It was harder um going from first to operator because operator is such a precision craft. Is that the right way to say that? Nick he'll tell us. It's it's very precise in headroom framing, left to right, everything about it, setting up shots with the director, setting up shots, getting them approved with the DP. And so you're making a lot of money as a focus puller. You're known in the business as a very good focus puller. And people don't want you to make that move, but you have to. You wake up one morning and you say, I don't want to do this anymore. And I had hurt my back on a movie with Tellia Davis in Montana, and uh said, okay, I'm operating. Uh and it was the year I got married, so my my big salary went to nothing because you're waiting for people and you're going out, you're going to the rental house. Hey, it's Paul Ewan, I'm an operator. I thought you were at first, but you have to get through that. You just have to do that. You're you're whether you're moving up from loader to second, second to first, first to operator, or operator to DP. DP, it's a little bit easier for that transition because you just go out and shoot. You just go out and shoot a short film, shoot a shoot a horror film, shoot anything to get material for your real. And uh, but that transition from uh uh first to operator, a couple of years. Couple of years. But thank goodness, music videos with I did 250 music videos as an assistant or an operator. Wow. Well, I mean, as a bat with a bad back, I mean that's well, your back cure, okay, you know, it it heals. The cameras were heavy healed in. Yeah. Yeah, and that's I was in Montana walking up a mountain with a Pentaflex on my shoulder. And Cal Mel uh Gaffer was behind me. And as I went back to drop it, he caught the camera. And uh my back went out. I I had to leave the show. But um anyway, that's but to answer your question, I would say for me, uh, from first operator, and I hear that from a lot of people, that that that transition is very difficult. But it it has to be done. Because like I said, you wake up one morning, I don't want to do this.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

I'm not I'm and there are lifelong focus pullers, nothing against her.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I love I love these guys. But well, before we move on from focus pullers, I mean, will you talk about some stories in dailies? Because fo you know, back then you you pretty much you you thought you had the shot, you know, in focus until you see dailies in uh I I always you were you're sharp, sharp shooter. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

No, it's true. You um you don't you don't know. And that's why you get so good at at doing what you're doing. Focus pullers who came up in the business in film and running a tape measure and knowing the distance. And when Nick Nolte does that, you're you know, and I I think in the digital world, of course, uh there's a little bit more depth of field, but um in film uh it was you never thought about how frightening uh this is what you're doing. Uh try not to let that get in your head.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Was the the moment frightening or the dailies aspect frightening? Or both?

unknown 12:41

All of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

All of it, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

The moment, because there were some actors and some directors, some DPs. You just did not want to go to them and ask for another type. You've already done eight takes. Now you're asking for another one, to be sure. And uh the operators uh when when you're in that situation, it's your best friend. Because he's looking through the he's the only one seeing it before everybody else sees it in daily.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

At least that's how it was. You know, back then, like like you said, that was also the responsibility of the operator. Like you need another one, you know, like yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though he messed it up. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

I don't want to wait for another one. That's right. That's right. Uh some fun stories. I mean, what was uh Farley and David Spade like on Black Sheet? I mean, that must have been a blast. Yeah, that's great. I mean those two had great chemistry and any fun stories for the case. And L. P. S Ferris directing.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Um yeah, it um uh let me think of a of a good story from Black Sheep. You know, the whole cabin sequence to me was very exciting because this huge rock is on top of the mountain and it rolls down the hill and hits the cabin at their end and just obliterates it, and all the bunk beds are falling in there, crashing to the floor, and the the the uh cabins being pushed to the ground. And uh I really enjoyed that because it was a day where we had an the A camera. Casey Hotchkiss was A camera, and I was the B camera operator. And um three more cameras suddenly came out and were locked on the bunk beds. So when the bunk beds fell, uh there was a different angle to cut to. And it and that's that's uh primarily not primarily, but that's one of the reasons I'm in second unit, because I like multiple cameras. And to have a day where you're shooting and you have you're you're always two cameras, but then suddenly there are more and there are more people working, it's it's exciting. It really, it if anything, because the day used to be where you would go to a trailer or you would go to a theater. Uh if you're shooting on the lot, we were, I think, at Paramount. Yes, we were at Paramount on that film. And we would go to the lot, to the screening room, and you're watching dailies, and you're watching your work the day. You shot on Monday, Tuesday, you're you're watching. It doesn't happen so much at all. And now I'm sure there's some directors that still do that and demand it, but now it's PICS systems, and we log in on the computer, and you're trying to watch your work and looking at lighting on a on a screen that's not calibrated.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Anyway, um the really I mean Black Sheep was so long ago. Right. But I mean, it's a it's a classic movie. I mean, you know, one you know, for the Farley fans. I mean, other ones, you know, Austin Powers, Eddie uh Dr. Doolittle, uh Starskeen Hutch. I mean, there's some of those movies you must I just kind of be on a fly on the wall with some of those actors, it must be great.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Um Starskeen Hutch, the uh the camera assistant made the slates. And uh the director was Gary Davis, and I was shooting the action unit. And the very first shot, the very first day, there were five cameras, and there were five slates, and everybody was slating their cameras. And Gary's very a very concentrated director. He was looking at the main A camera, and the slate goes in front, and it said director Paul Hewen, and it said director of photography, Gary Davis. And very few directors know how to fly, but Gary came up out of his director's chair three feet in the air and said, What is that? Why is Paul's name is director? No one had seen it. So I said, remake them all, make all remake all the slates, eight through E. And so they remade them and I said, I destroy all of those slates. So cut to 10 years later, uh, I saw on eBay one of the slates. Did you get it? Did you buy it? No.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

You didn't buy your own slate. Oh, that would have been a great I had a slate. It was correct. True. Yeah, that's funny. That's that's a yeah, no, those uh, you know, in the camera department, those slate stories disasters are horrible, you know. If a name is spelled wrong or yeah, no, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

It happens.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

It does happen, you know. But I remember one time I spelt the uh the product wrong on a commercial, a four-day shoot, and they didn't realize well, I didn't realize it. I'm dyslexic, but it looked fine to me. And then on day four, they're like uh the you JC Pennies has two ends or something like that. I'm like, what? Like on day four, now you tell me, you know. But um and then you you also did uh let's talk about Fast and Furious. Yes, which one? I mean, well, you you've done many, but like No, no.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

I mean two, right? Uh two. I did uh Jonathan Taylor, whom we lost this week, uh he did part one, and I was one of the additional camera operas. That's how I met Jonathan.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Um and then on part four, um, I was second unit DP.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Four. Yeah, that was fun.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

That was that was the one after Tokyo Drift, right? I'm getting my fashion tours. I think I did part 19, part 33. Yeah, you never, I mean, out in a few years. I don't remember they all blend together.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

One thing I remember was uh you always an action DP, you always did a great job of placing the camera closest to the action, but sometimes it would got a little too close. Little too close. And uh a couple cameras were destroyed.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Um cowboys and aliens.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Uh yeah, cowboys and aliens, fast and furious. What's that like going to production when they you get the phone calls?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Oh, you don't go to production, they come to you. Yeah, that's it. They are you see them walking across the grassy null walking straight towards you.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

You know, it because it's funny because uh I never had I'd never been on a job before where we where we had to zip tie mags and then cover it in in plastic bags, but on your shoots, sure, you the always you made us do that because occasionally an accident would happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah. Um that that always was what I enjoyed most about shooting film when a camera got hit. Generally the action portion has already been committed to the negative. Uh unless it's completely shredded and the mag's lying in the gutter w open and it's exposed, but you can still send it in. Right. But in the digital world, uh the problem I have, um, and maybe I'll get a phone call after this, and somebody will say, Well, Paul, you're so behind in the times, you need to do this. Because in the digital world, the uh the content has not committed to the card the buffing rate yet. Correct, correct. So, and that was the case in Hancock, the crane got hit with the camera. I'm gonna get less work because we're talking about it. No, no, no. This is only a small part of the show.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

We're gonna we're gonna move on to some of the, you know, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

But Cowboys and Aliens, unfortunately, it was eight cameras. And yeah, and I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

You're right. Yeah. I mean, Cowboys and Aliens, we had some damage, but most of that was weather related. Yes, it was.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

No, you're correct. It was uh fast and furious.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah. Well, occasionally stunts would go wrong, or the car would land much further than it was supposed to. It was insane.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Uh come off the ramps. The cars, they're gonna come off the ramps. No, it came off the ramps. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. And then Terry Leonard, directing sweetheart, sweetheart, still a great friend living in uh Arizona, Cave Creek, but uh gave it away, Terry. Um, he would he would get out of the golf cart and he would, you know, third or fourth hip replacement, and he would walk up. And he would look at where I had put the crash cam, and then he'd look at where the car's gonna come from out of the tunnel and catch air six feet off the ground and come crashing down. And then he would look back and say, Paul, yeah, Terry, let's move this one back three feet. He was always right. Yeah. I mean, this guy did apocalypse now. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

You have to, you're right. Well, you guys had great chemistry, too. Yeah. I mean, that's that's something that loved working with him. No, he I loved working with Terry. He still wants to work. He should work. He was great. Yeah. He's I never really had a director come up to me as a crew member and ask if I feel okay, you know, in his golf cart. We were downtown. No, like we were just close to the action. And he was like, Do you guys feel okay here? If you go, you could scoot it back. And I was like, Well, you're asking me if I'm like, No, I don't feel okay. But like, you know, this is where he said to put it, you know. So yeah, no, Terry Leonard, yeah, it was great. I mean, Cowboys and Aliens, that was a fun job too. But the weather on that job was uh destructive was very difficult, you know. Um I remember one time we were in the plains, and the you know, three o'clock, the clouds and thunderstorms would come in, and you could see it from afar. Yeah, just black death. And then, you know, like one time we're like we're driving closer to the black clouds, and and the you know, it was all pandemonium.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

The rainstorm that they left the trucks down in the gully and the honeywagon and the tents, and everybody had to get out. We're rushing to get cameras, running to get six cameras out of that base. Right. Everybody had some of the camera equipment that day. Harrison Ford got out of his helicopter with that battery and ran up to the van and said, Somebody charge this and bring it back to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah. Yeah, that was uh yeah. I don't know. I think the weather part of it. But um you know, uh other DPs. Let's talk about Jonathan Taylor. You had mentioned before. You you you worked with him first on that.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I'm not sure which came first, Charlie's Angels. Okay. Uh the first full throttle, the first one. Or uh uh I shot some plate shots that he couldn't do for him on um Charlie's Angels, but mostly those two shows as his operator. And then he said, Paul, I'm going to do Planet the Apes for Tim Burton. Would you come and be my operator? I said, No, sorry, uh I'd love to, but I'm shooting. So he goes and he does Planet of the Apes. They're shooting in uh Chona. Is that what it's called? And uh he got sick. There was there was a walnut dust.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Yes. Were you there?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

No, but I've heard this story many times from Jonathan uh yeah, the Willian Peter the dust, the walnut piece of the walnut uh from the Ritter fam went into his tooth. And they have him on a stretcher loading him in the ambulance. And he said to the producer, call Paul Hewitt. And I got in the car after I got the call. I drove the five, six hours to Toronto, got out with my light meter, and uh started shooting. And then um was always grateful to Jonathan because then he did X-Men 3 and got sick got walking pneumonia at the beginning of the shoot. He had prepped 11 weeks, and then the day that he started shooting, he couldn't be there the first day. And they said, Paul Jonathan wants you to fly up. Can you get on this plane right now? And I went up. I did a couple of weeks until he was well enough. The doctors wouldn't let him come back till he was well enough, and then he left to go do Charlie and the chocolate factory. And uh I replaced him. I flew back up and replaced him. And that and then on Mr. and Mrs. Smith, after two weeks of shooting, he uh he and Mick Rogers left and they shot some beautiful stuff, and they left, and then Simon Crane called me and said, uh Jonathan Taylor says I should so I I owe Jonathan a couple of houses down there, you know, a couple of mortgages.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, yeah. And that's great because Jonathan was always great at moving people up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Um, and so that's you know, because yeah, you were Yes, he was, and he's very loyal, very loyal. Yeah. But the thing about Jonathan, if you watched him work, you always learned where the camera was gonna go. And that's where I think I learned more about action photography and camera placement uh from Jonathan than anybody else. Because he just he just knew where it went. Yeah. You know, the A camera was always a big deal. Place the A camera first. Now let's bring in the other ten cameras and surround the courtyard and see what everybody gets, you know. So yeah. He's he's been missed for some time, but his passing this past weekend. Uh it's very sad. It's very sad, it hurts. But uh the knowledge everyone got from him who worked with him. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

And I mean, even a a great cameraman, a great crew member, a great uh DP, but even a uh just a quality person. I mean, Jonathan off-camera, offset. I mean, he was this the stories and he was a kind gentleman and just uh a a wonderful person. And of course, you know, he'll be missed, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

But um in his segue from because we would all like to do this, and I've only done it once on one division, but shooting and directing at the same time, once you're comfortable shooting, uh directing action sequences. Um they if you have a good stunt coordinator and a good stunt team, those two are a marriage. It's a must. I I love it, but you know, no one's hiring me as a director. Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Not yet. You know? Better hurry. You gotta bring out your Super Eight films. Better hurry.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

That slates on the back of a pony heading into the sunset.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

That's funny. Now, uh speaking of a great stunt crew, I mean, yeah, in second units, um it's they're Tony Muller. They're dangerous. They're they're not, you know, I mean, sometimes life-threatening situations. Oh second units. Yeah, you know, so you have to rely on a great stunt director. Um many of them are great, but there's some people that you're like, oh my gosh, you know. Yeah but uh any um stunt disasters that you recall uh that were, you know other than what we mentioned? Other than you know, disasters for a camera or um You know, luckily um well uh uh what's his name?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Uh the accident on Fashion Furious out in the desert. Yeah, yeah. Uh the car's going across the sand and the sand kicked up, and the lead car dove stalled, and the other car just plowed on top of it because they couldn't uh see it. Uh that was, you know, that was with Terry. Yeah. That was uh one of the few times I've witnessed someone being airlifted out. And uh yeah, but everybody's did you keep filming then fine then or no? Uh we we did keep filming, but not that day. I see. We were we were done for that day.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Right, right, right. Yeah. Um uh in lines of crew members, what do you look for in a in a in a key grip, a gaffer? What are the those characteristic traits?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

One thing. And everything else that comes with it. You've got the right tools. I've told you in prep what I need. These car mounts are coming into play. Uh we need this mount on the back of a tanker truck. This lighting is gonna happen with the aliens flying over the city. But one thing always comes into play and is my number one priority with everybody. Camera grip, electric is paying attention. Being there for the safety meeting, being there for the revisit to the storyboards, revisit to the pre-vis. We're going to play the pre-vis, every all everybody. If there's an operator missing from watching the previs when he's been invited to be there, there needs to be a really good reason they're not there watching that on the TV screen so that we can see exactly how this is going to play out. And I try to show all the operators uh, and anybody in the camera department and the key grip and the gaffer, try to watch, have them watch the previs so they know exactly what we're trying to do. And in Fashion Furious, it's pretty easy. The cars go left to right, they turn the corner, they go out of frame. It's previs that way, it's storyboarded that way. So everybody knows exactly what's happening from A to B. And nobody's standing in the middle of the street, or the C camera operator says, Well, I think this would be a better shot. Tell me why. Why is that a better shot? And that guy who who says that is the guy who's gonna be who's coming back tomorrow. He's the guy who's gonna be there. Same with the key grip and the gaffer. You come to the monitors, you watch what's going on. You just did the high fall, something didn't work, we're gonna do it again. The cameras stay where they are. Now, we just did it. If you're able and you're not up on a lift or inside an office building and you can't get to the monitors, come over and see why we're doing it a second time. Or come over after the first time, we got it, and hear the praise. Hear the directors say, This was a fantastic shot. This was great. Who did that shot?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, Terry Leonard was great with that. He was great with that.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah, he was great with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Uh so um one of your longtime firsts, now an operator, Richie Messino. Yes. So he the same characteristic traits. I mean, but um talk about him. You had him for a long time. Uh yeah, he's he's still around. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. But I mean, when I worked on your units, I I never really saw an A-camera lead before in terms of like somebody who, I mean, was right by your side with camera placements, um, but and then sometimes didn't pull focus on the shots, but he was kind of like a assistant head coach, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Right, right. Richie um finds out what the shot is, he knows what's going to happen, and then he executes the shot. He's good at it. He was good at it as a poker puller, and I knew he would make an excellent uh operator. And when he misses something, which isn't very often, but when he does, uh he knows immediately. And he sees me at the monitor. And usually, if my arms are crossed when I'm standing at the monitor, it's a pretty good sign that uh it's not that I'm not happy, it's just that we can do better. And uh Richie would come walking up in his head. It's it's like, you know, where's the battery for that? That he he knows that he did something. And it's not very often that he would, but he knows he can do something better, even if he got it and you liked it, and he he will always strive for 110%. And that's what I like in my gaffer. I like that in the whole crew, everybody, everybody working to the next day do better, get better footage, uh, so that because who doesn't love first unit? Hey, Paul, that shot you did with the car flipping, that that I really like that. That was cool, you know. Or when when the guy took off in the biplane and uh the camera, um, you know, you you want to hear that. Yeah you want to hear that from first unit.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

I mean, what are what are the challenges being a second unit DP? Because I mean, you you were mentioning out there, um you're on the job a lot earlier than we get on the job, and lots of meetings that have been ahead of them talk about.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

But the good thing is you're you're getting onto the job after the main unit TP and the main unit director. It's very rare that you would start at the same time. Uh so let's say they prep six weeks and then you start your five weeks of prep, the very first thing on the phone after you've got the job. And I have a miracle phrase, I call it, to uh get the job, but I can't tell you what that is. Because then you're gonna be a DP and you're gonna get my job. I'll take all the tricks you got.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yes. I know, I know that's the nature of the business. Yeah. Well, I remember you. You were always you're very quiet. You like to get a little information, but it was very hard to get information from.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

So what you do is you start with uh this isn't a lesson, this is just what I do. I start with on the phone asking the DP, what is the reference material you and Johnny discussed in uh prep. What what did you watch that he liked? Oh, he really liked uh Friday the 13th, part 30. He really liked uh whatever, Citizen Kane, whatever film that they watch, you need to be very familiar with that because it will be referenced. And then through production, after you're hired, you start with storyboards and then you move up to pre-vis, and then once you're on board, you can ask for tech vis. And you have all this material to uh piece together. What you're what you're trying to do is get all the material the first unit DP has been successful in getting and reference that material, study that material, because as first unit shoots uh Brad Pitt walking down stairs, second unit's gonna shoot him pulling out the shotgun. So what what does he know about Brad walking down the stairs? What was the lighting like when he came down the stairs? And then as they shoot those sequences, you have to be on the picks list or on whatever dailies system so that you can view the dailies with your gaffer. And then you go to the main unit set, you're standing around trying not to be too uh intimidating, you know. Oh, another DP on the on the set staring over my shoulder. All you're trying to do is get information, see how he's lighting, especially a scene that you're gonna finish. And it may be somebody picking up the phone, as simple as that. But in all likelihood, it's an action part of that scene that you're completing. The fight scene where the ninjas crash through the window. Um main unit shot the two actors on the couch, but you're crashing in through the window. So, what's outside those windows? When do they come in? You look at the previews, you look at the storyboards, you look at the main unit DP's dailies, and uh ask questions. Most DPs 85% love to be asked questions. There are a few that do not, and that's counterproductive to what a second unit is trying to do to help help first unit because the way you get more work as a second unit DP is you create a seamless piece that's going a seamless film, a seamless seamless sequence that's going to cut in. That's right. Two separate units, but two separate units, but the kiss of death is you start making your own movie. Right. And I hate it when I feel like I have to go to a second unit director, which doesn't happen very often, and say, are we is this in keeping with what I mean, you're handheld now, but uh first unit was not handheld, they were on sticks.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah, that's that is yeah, the challenge of a second unit DP. Um now, even though Pablo's not here, he did want me to ask a few questions. So this is the Pablo segment of the show. Pablo is a huge Star Wars fan. So will you talk about some of your work? Uh obviously, you got the the latest movie out. Yes. Talk about Grogu.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Talk about that. Grogu. Um Star Wars is an exact um production when it comes to uh adhering to the Star Wars universe. There are a lot of things you can do, there are a lot of things you can't do. John Favreau is very particular with uh the photography of all of the streamers that we did, which was five or six different shows in the movie. He's very particular with, and Dave Floney's always there. Uh as those two will adhere to the Star Wars universe as close as possible. You know, there's certain rules that you don't cross uh with the phot photography, and that has been adhered to something as simple as a blaster. A blaster doesn't have uh repercussion, you know, when you pull the trigger, it's just so uh when you see that you're hey, you know, you go to the second director or the star coordinator, he's he's got this anyway. Um would they come visit you on set occasionally or no?

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Favreau.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And on Grogu, Dave Floney was directing the puppet unit. Uh and then Peter Ramsey was directing a lot of the other action and second unit. So they were always coming and visiting. And when they weren't coming and visiting, they had the iPad on Q-Take, and they were watching what you were doing. But it's a comfort thing. Once they know that you can do it and they don't want to get in your way, they leave you alone. But they're always watching your dailies the day after, or real time streaming it, watching what you're doing. And either calling you uh if they don't have the voice queue take activated. So Paul, the camera's too high. So instant feedback. Instant feedback. And you either accept it and say, this is fantastic, right? Because what you don't want to have to do, especially in second unit, is come back and reshoot something because John or Dave or Joe or Daniel wanted the uh camera six inches lower. They're fixing it now because it's very expensive to come back and do it again, do it another time. But they're the lightsaber element of lighting and photography from the very first show that I worked on, Boba Fett, the lights lightsaber has uh really for for us. With LEDs and uh it's really progressed in a beautiful way to where it's very realistic. Now a lot of that is replaced. ILM steps in and changes things, but uh there's something about the earlier versions of Star Wars and the lightsaber that were were cool, but now the lightsaber has really become a character of its own, blue or red for the bad guys, whatever. But um it's uh it it's the the good thing about working on a Star Wars project, you know that you're going to have a lot of prep. You're gonna have a lot of prep. And on the streamers, there's a lot of second unit coming and finishing, but there's also second unit inheriting uh first unit scenes and the Mandalorian and Grogu is the same way. Dave Klein would would need to go and pre-light a volume set, and we would come to the water set uh and shoot with the stunt players, uh uh, whatever, whatever needed to be done, and you just go with it. You just like they will spend the money to have this set lit, this set lit, and this set lit. So when you walk in with your dimmer board up and he sets it up, you're like, cue up scene 87C, and he puts 87c, lightly tapping on the scene. Thank you. You're welcome. 87C, and the lights all come on at the levels for that scene. There's some tweaking that's involved, but uh the mechanics of it are just beautiful. But that that's not inherent in just uh Star Wars. That's that's um all projects now with the Dimmer board of today. The tech of today, yeah, exactly. But uh Dave Faloney and John Favreau will will make sure that everybody has props, uh puppeteers, everybody has exactly what they need to deliver a plus. There's no when something's not right, everybody sees it. Or some some there's a little bit of waiting around. Okay, let's send that to John, and we will send it to John's assistant.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Was your first project with John Cowboys and Aliens? I mean, because he's did you work with him? No. No, no.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Uh I one of my first jobs as an operator was uh a movie called Rudy.

unknown 46:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

It was John Favreau's first movie. A little movie, yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

A little movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I remember looking through the camera and and seeing John on the steps of the school, the high school, and he put his hands up like this, and he had two watches on him. He had a watch on each arm. I'm looking through the camera. I thought, is he supposed, does he know? Is he supposed to have I'm looking for props? And um, I was at a dinner at Disneyland because we were shooting Oswald last year, and uh John had invited some of us to a dinner, and uh he was talking about Rudy, and I started to say, that was my first show as a camera operator, and John started saying, that was my first show as an actor. And I just kept my mouth shut. I didn't say anything. But the next time I see him and we're doing the chit-chat, I'm gonna mention that to me. But it was that uh I did a film called Very Bad Things as a camera operator, and um the DP left halfway and um insisted I leave with him, which I did, and I didn't get to finish that film. But Pete Berg, I think, was directing. Yeah, Pete Berg was directing, and uh John was one of the actors, but as a director, um I think it was Cowboys name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yeah, that's uh that's great when people are loyal like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

I mean you gotta love it. Yeah. And this Star Wars five-year extravaganza for us at MBS and all the crew, uh and that that really is the one word that sums up that, which is loyalty. It's not only from production. Uh a lot of times if you're off and they say, hey, there's no second unit this week, and then they end up calling everybody in that Wednesday. You just have to go with it. You can't get upset about it. Okay, I was gardening. Why are you interrupting me?

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Right, yeah. You said I was gonna work next week.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

I was feeding my goldfish. You said Monday.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Right, yeah. That's the nature of it now. Yeah, yeah. Um, Pablo also wanted me to ask you about uh Maul Holland Drive, going way back, way back when that's one of his favorite movies. We chat a little bit about that, David Lynch.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um Peter Deming shot Moholland Drive. Um David Lynch had said early on that there would there would not be a second unit. David, I don't I don't care. Because I if David were to call, God rest him, miss that guy, and say, come do craft service, I'd be there in a heartbeat. But um uh they said there's a shot uh we can't get up to Mohone Drive to do. And Penny Sprague was my focus' puller. And we had a long dolly shot with the limo passing by on Mahone and going away from us. And uh Michael, the producer, came up and Michael Pilaire came up and said, Congratulations after I'd shot it. And I said, Why is Will David's never really had a second unit? And I said, Really? Wow, okay, cool. About that time, um, I was stepping off the dolly and I could smell this very familiar cigarette smoke. And I turned around and David was standing at the end of the dolly track smoking a cigarette. Nice, Polly, nice, thank you. So yeah, so he was there. Which I I'm not sure Michael had that story correct because I know Fred Elms shot second unit on Dune. Uh and Freddie, Freddie Fields, Francis, anyways, shot main unit. Um, I don't know how David was in two places at once on that show, unless the schedule permitted. But um Mullen Drive in Lost Highway, uh, I'm the best thing I ever did for my career was to go back and operate on those two movies for David and for Peter, primarily because you learned so much from David. I remember one shot in a hallway on Lost Highway where the room, uh Patricia R. Cat is in the bedroom, and David said, uh, Pete, um it's a little bright. So Peter turned out a light, and we were already at the at the the edge of the threshold. And Pete, can we try one more? And Peter turned out the second light, to where when you're looking in the room, you saw the frame, the molding of the door frame, and you saw the walls, but the room was pitch black. There may have been a little glow from an alarm clock or a light, but it was pitch black. So when uh the actor came out of the room, it's just they just appear from this black void. And I believe uh to this day that that that's what he was trying to do to get it so dark in that room that he didn't come into the light until he passed through the door, and then he was in the hallway in the morning light with the as he goes outside to look for the videotape, whatever. Um, but Mullen drive was the same way. It was every uh shot was a challenge to try to do something that David really liked and would through his megaphone, because he always would talk through the megaphone while he was smoking, sitting in his director's chair. Uh uh he would always make comments through the megaphone or talk to the directors sometime. And a lot of time he was on the side. It wasn't always through the megaphone, but it was always great to hear his booming voice talking to the actors or a little slower this time, pick it up a little slower this time. Uh and Pete Peter Demming did a lot of the operating. He he likes to operate for uh for David. But um it was always a challenge, and it was always the challenge to fully understand the material. I never understood uh Lost Highway, I never understood Mohlen Drive, but you don't need to. You're you're you're in a hopper painting, you're in a uh uh it's a piece of piece of artwork every shot that you're doing. And that's what I miss most is a challenge to create uh something with such a creative person. And I turned down the original Dune as a loader to go to Mexico City with my friend uh Tim uh Joyce, who is the uh the key first on the film. I I have the last name wrong, but he invited, we did some commercials together, and he said, if you come to Mexico City, I'll hire you. I didn't go. I stayed and did a different movie, but that would have been something.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

I mean, you've done from movies to TV, WandaVision, Stranger Things. What are the talk about those real quick if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

You know, the the transition from movies to TV sometimes can be difficult because of the speed that TV likes to work, the number of pages you're shooting a day, the work. But I've been very lucky that the shows that I've worked on uh have wanted you to work slowly and and yeah, mimic the film, not the film look, but uh quality. It's it's about a certain quality. You know, I I did the first season of Beverly Hills 90210 as an operator and learned very quickly what it meant to speed through the day. Yeah. And always telling myself, okay, I won't do that when I'm when I'm in television if I ever am. And of course I was. I I I love it, but that quality that you've adhered to, adhered to in film, uh easily trend it it can. Right. It can. But you don't have to allow it. You don't have to allow it to. And in second unit, usually on television you're doing some stunt work. And so it you have to slow down for that. You can't if if you're working with a second unit director who's speeding through the day in TV, then you gotta find somebody else to work with.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Right. And it could be dangerous too.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

You don't you don't want anybody hurt. Take the time to do it, do it right.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Did I answer your question? No, you you did. Um no, that the TV pace is much different. I remember, you know, step units, one eighth of a page. You spend five and a half, six hours. Right. Maybe you do the first shot before lunch. If it goes well, we talk about the second shot after lunch, or we, you know, put it away for tomorrow. And then if it if it doesn't go well, then you're staying around a little bit longer to set it all up again and hopefully have a successful take two before dark, you know. Yep. Which uh yeah, those are always fun. One eighth of a page opposite of TV. I mean, it's it's a grind on TV.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

But in WandaVision was great uh for my episodes that I was shooting and directing because uh it was an exact as it was a very complicated shoot. I don't know if you saw the series, but it was very complicated with who was who and w what they were doing in the city that she lived in. And um it it was difficult keeping up with the complications of it and different lighting and different filtration, different lenses for each episode as we went from uh an episode that was going to be on the TV that people were watching and scenes on the TV to episodes that were just normal photography, but keeping a list, again, back to what we talked about. You're not there to make your own movie, you're there to execute and make a seamless uh transition from first unit to second unit, which is people say to me all the time, what's your style? And I say, Well, my style is the 15 guys that shot first unit that I've shot for. Right. You know, and it could be difficult, but there's something to be said for Larry Blamford and Josh Blabtrow and Bruce McCleary and Jonathan, myself, who matched to these other DPs. It uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

If you don't want to do that, stick with first unit. Yeah, don't make your own movie. Um as we're we're getting close to the end, but uh before we do that, we have still have many more questions. Uh talk about the transition from film to digital as a cameraman, the challenges that it presented, and then some of the aspects that you like about it, and then some of the things not so nice.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Um it was difficult. It was difficult because on your hip is your light meter. And now, okay, you're still using the light meter. And some guys don't. They just go to the DIT cart, they go to video village, and DI cart DIT cart is showing you a an OLED monitor that is a representation of what the final product or what the director, the proofs, or the studio are all going to see. Um, so that transition of relying on your light meter uh to set your key light, set your fill, your backlight, whatever, uh kind of slowly, not as you get lazier, but slowly goes out the window. And you rely on the DIT to help you. Uh, here's another entity helping you create this image. And a lot of times when you were shooting film, it was just in your head. It was you and the gaffer out there in the field turning on the backlights and setting those and taking a still. Once you know the 5D came out, we're all taking stills and using that to help us set exposure. But once uh once digital, our digital world took over and we embraced it, and we work, and you get a DIT that is not uh egocentric and uh comes there to help you, comes there to make the image look as good as possible, and takes your suggestions, takes your advice, but gives his suggestions and advice, but doesn't create my way or the highway scenario. That's about Luis Hernandez, who is my Diet. Uh I can't go to a set without him, unless of course it's film. But uh that yeah, I have a story, but we'll save that for another.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Well, you'll have to come back because you're still a working DP, so we're only touching just the surface of your jobs. But uh also talk about where do you think the film business goes with AI?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

Hmm. I don't allow those two initials to get in the way of my day. I don't uh allow it to I I see there could be a place for it, but I don't I've I've been in this business so long that thinking that something's going to either create the actors and take me out of a job, that's fine. I'll I'll be done at 70 and a half. So um I I don't uh I I think there's a place, but I don't know where it is, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Do you see it right now as a helpful tool? I mean, because it has changed even today's film sets. Um in what way? Um well, you know, the previs sometimes it looks so good. You know, some I've heard sometimes they just well, we'll just have this little half-second clip be there. We don't have to recreate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Have you had those situations? I had uh some trouble on occasion on Avengers in game. Um sometimes telling the difference between when they would cut pre-vis into real footage, I would have trouble. But that has nothing to do with AI. That was several years ago. I don't think AI was up to that point. It was just the guy creating the previs third floor, whoever did it, that was uh so good at creating the lighting and the the frame size, the image. Because you know, uh a 50 millimeter looks completely different from a 25 millimeter. And to create previs that that creates that millimeter and that look is uh talent. That's a talent. And when you cut the real footage with the previs footage and and you you're looking at it, playing it over and over, is that maybe nowadays in AI, I'm gonna be more receptive or more uh aware that oh, that's an AI generated shot. Are they gonna use that? Or I I don't know. I don't I I hear through the DJA all the grumblings of uh AI and what we need to do about it. I I can see a car chase and know that that's a digital vehicle. I can see a deer walking across a snowy landscape, uh walking to the house. I'm not mentioning a movie that's out now, but I can I can tell it's a digital shot. Now, is that is that just a digital shot? Is that AI generated? I I don't have answers for why I should be against AI.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Well, not necessarily against. I mean, um the question is just you know, where where do you see the business, you know, because the volume was such a a high-tech, you know, replacing green screen and all that. It was like, oh, this is going to be around forever. And it seems like now, in that short time, I mean, they're still working with it, but yeah, now you hear gray sets or gray walls now and they add everything in in that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

Well, that's just the tech part. Yeah. That's how I am or someone else saying, you know, we we would prefer in this sliding environment uh a gray, a gray wall. And it used to be uh there were many pre-production discussions. Are we green digital? Are we blue chroma? Are we what what and and then you're keeping a list and say, okay, we got to change out the blue screen to green or to go into digital, whatever they want. You know, that's that's one of the questions uh to get information and reproduction.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

But uh yeah, I but I mean the green screen back then, remember the pre-lights, 12, 14 hours to pre-light the green screen had to be perfectly exact.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:19

Exact top, bottom, left, oh yeah, middle, yeah, half stop over key, half stop under or at key, depending on what the visual effects supervisor wants. And they're all different. You can do 15 films that are visual effects laden, and every visual, if you work with 15 different visual effects supervisors, producers, coordinators, they will all have different things to say about the green. Mando is interesting once gray came into play because of the reflections in the suit, the reflections in Grogu's eyes. Uh gray is uh is a gift. It's a very nice present from ILM to to be able to use that more and more. Not that we don't use green. There are instances where we do, but a lot of it's gray. And it really helps with the reflections.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, that's that's great. Uh coming to an end, um, you know, I I just can't thank you enough. Uh it's always fun working with you. We've done a quite a bit of projects together. Um, the energy that you have on set is excellent for crew members. You know, you feed from the people at the top. Uh sometimes it's it's not like that. So uh, but before we go, like as you mentioned, uh Jonathan Taylor was a big part in my in my career as well, and many of the people that I work with. And uh it is sad we did lose him this week. Um so just uh just want to say, you know, rest in peace to Jonathan Taylor. Absolutely. Uh dear sweetheart. And um uh, you know, uh you are still a working DP. I know you have other projects um you've had to cancel on us before, which is excellent because we promote work here on this show. So uh we look forward to having you again on this show. And uh be sure to tell all your friends to like, subscribe, uh the uh YouTube, the prelim podcast, Instagram, TikTok, um Apple, Apple Podcast, and then uh more importantly, most importantly, uh I'm gonna head out this weekend to celebrate my dad's 80th birthday. So, you know, cheers to my pops, happy birthday, and uh Paul Hewan. Oh my gosh, before we go, two favorite questions people some say they don't like. Uh, what's your favorite word on set? Um lunch. Okay. All right. Uh least favorite word on set.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

Um can it be a sound? Sure. Water bottle crunching.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, very good. Very good. Hey, that's haven't heard that one before. Um, Paul Hewan, we'll see you on the set next time. Hey, thank you so much again. Uh tell Pablo next time. Next time he'll be doing it. Yeah. He'll grill you more about Star Wars. I know he's gonna be mad at me. Why didn't you ask this? Why didn't you ask that? But uh thank you, Paul. It's been wonderful and uh keep shooting. I'm I'd play a lot a few more years. That's right, that's right. All right, that's a wrap, Paul. Right. Thank you.