WWE Mattel Figure Designer Ranks His BEST Figures

Join MDT, WSC , and special guest Magic, a lead designer from Mattel’s WWE action figure team, for an in-depth, fun-filled roundtable on all things wrestling figures! 

Go behind the scenes of the action figure design process, from concept to execution, including how designers capture specific wrestling moments, balance collectibility with playability, and address fan feedback. 

The gang also runs a heartfelt and hotly debated bracket of Magic’s best Mattel figures—culminating in crowning the ultimate champion. If you love wrestling, collecting, or just want the inside scoop from one of the top toy designers in the business, this episode is a must-listen!

Instagram: @mydamncreators

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@mydamntoys

@wscstagecreator

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What is good, everyone? Welcome in live to my damn creators, man. Back again with another fantastic and highly anticipated episode. As always, I am Trey, MDT My Damn Toys, and we do have my man Nate, WSC stage creator, over here. And joining us is one third, maybe you say, maybe half, maybe a fifth nowadays, with everybody working over there. But we have one of the head designers over at Mattel for the WWE action figures that we love. We have Magic. How are we doing, bud?

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Good, man. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Absolutely, brother. Absolutely. Always good to see you. I feel like I see you're like family. I see you two or three times a year here and there.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

So looking forward to all the time.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Absolutely. Nate, what's going on with you, brother?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I'm doing good, and it's a pleasure to have you over here, Magic. And for those who are not aware of the things, the great stuff you've done over at Mattel, can you tell us all what are the lines that you've worked on?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I work on a lot of stuff, thankfully. Uh, I work on the Money Night War Elite, when I wore ultimates, some ringside exclusives, defining moments, uh, the PLE Elite Waves, the Walmart three packs, and then a few other stuff, LJNs, and then some other stuff here and there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, it's good to be busy. Could be new.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, you're valuable then. You're value jack of all trades. You kind of can dabble in all the different stuff. Yeah, I mean, for sure. Not to mention the the PLE ultimates, too. Don't forget about those. Yeah. Those are good. Yeah, for sure. But today, so just to give the listeners and viewers a little bit of what we're gonna do today. So we have a few questions for you. We'll just kind of ramble on with some questions here to start off. And then I'm very excited for this because everybody knows I love brackets, I love ranking things. Today, we are taking some of your best work that I think you've done under the Mattel umbrella. We put them into a bracket, and we're gonna see who works its way up to an eventual champion here. I think we have 24 figures that you've worked on under the Mattel umbrella. You've of course done way more than that, but we didn't want to be here for too, too long. I know everybody's got stuff to do. So we do have 24, I think, of the best, and we'll we'll run through it. We got a seated bracket here, which I'll get into when we get there. But before that, we do have some questions. Nate, you want to hit them up with maybe the first question and just kind of get things rolling?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah, sure. I'm very interested in you know what you guys do over a Mattel designing the WWE figures. And I'm interested to know what is a day in the life of a Mattel designer? You know, what are the tasks that you know you face daily? How many figures are you working on in a day? Tell us a little bit about that process.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Yeah, I mean, so it changes day to day. Sometimes we're in meetings, sometimes we're not. Sometimes we go in the office uh a lot more than we're out. Uh, but task-wise, we're working on so many figures at once. So that's kind of it's all over the place. So sometimes we're turning over new projects simultaneously. We're getting sculpt images or getting uh physical models of other things. So we're constantly sending notes out. Uh, I think at any given time we're working on like 20, 30 figures at once, to be honest. So it's kind of a lot. Uh yeah, it's really hectic. Little lot of photoshopping stuff, a lot of notes, a lot of like digitally uh altering stuff to send feedback to our sculptors. We work with a lot with our sculptors, but work a lot with our um MOA team, our MSc team, China, our China team, basically. So, yeah, it's just a lot, a lot of collaborations, a lot of talking to the marketing team, a lot of talking to our uh teammates just for like manufacturing purposes and stuff like that. So there's quite a lot going on at one time, I'd say. So it's pretty hectic.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

So it's like it's kind of like like people think, oh, you go in the office, you design a figure, and that's the end of the day, but it's a lot of you're you're managing a lot of different things. It's more than the artwork itself, than the you know the design process. I mean, you're you're kind of you know, you're balancing multiple things at any given time all the time. So yeah, you got all these moving parts and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Yeah, the art direction, I would say it's like we have the vision for what it's gonna be. We create this turnover package and we send it out to our MOA teams, and they come back with like the actual physical things for it or sculpts or whatever, where we send out the our feedback to sculptors, but it's a lot just carrying this vision to the end and making sure like it comes in at cost, comes comes in the right tooling and like the parts are being corrected, or you know, there's a lot, there's so many spinning wheels for it. So, yeah, it's really just carrying a vision to the end, I would say. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

So you're working on so many figures in a day. What's the like turnaround process of like say you got like 20 figures to work on? How long does it take to make those 20 figures and then start work on you know the next round of figures that you're gonna work on?

SPEAKER_03 4:39

So the whole process takes like a year. So the first turnaround could take like a month, and that's including getting head sculpts done, getting the body art or getting the body sculpts done, sending out to different vendors who we want to work with on these things, and then choosing the right attires. And after that, uh maybe like a month or two, and we'll get the cost and we'll get the deco sheets and we'll see how much they cost and what we have to take out or what we can where we're going at, like where the whole wave's leaning. If something's too expensive, we'll have to make reductions, obviously. Because at the end of the day, we do have to make the company money, unfortunately. Can't we just make the best world like I always want to? So for me, that's my biggest issue. I always put so much into them. I always wanted to like throw everything at it. I can, but I always have to rein and bin and try to like make the best product we can for what we can afford and still be profitable. Uh, I forgot the original question.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Well, I mean, that kind of leads me into my that kind of leads me into my into my one of my first questions here is you know, you talked a lot about, you know, you try to put your best foot forward. You're you know, you gotta there's a there's a bottom line at the end of the day that you have to, you know, at the end of the day, you can't just make it however you want. You gotta you gotta make money at the end of the day. So my question is, you know, to you, what do you value most when you design a wrestling action figure? You know, maybe, you know, you you let's just I'm just pulling a random guy up. Okay, Cody Rhodes, we're gonna new Cody Rhodes. And let's say, let's say you're not taking into consideration like uh an existing mold. Maybe you want to go all out on it. If you're trying to make this Cody Rhodes the best possible, what's the most important part of making that figure for you personally? Is it gonna be just some, you know, just different examples here? You know, is it the likeness, the feeling hand, the posability, the I want to make sure the deco? And obviously you care a little bit about all these stuffs, but I think people would probably say that I probably value the you know, the feeling hand or the articulation. I don't want the figure to feel a certain type of way. For you designing the figure, what stands out to you the most, or or maybe even when you're not only designing, but you know, when you're collecting yourselves.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I would say uh capturing a moment in time. So I think like if you're gonna do a Cody, you want to do like we're breaking the streak, or he's like like when he uh finished the story, you know, like you want to capture a moment, like a big moment that people want to remember and want to be a part of, sort of, and you want to give them all the pieces that could play out that story with the figure. So you want to give them the heads and the different expressions. I can't remember what Bill did for this figure, so it's probably a bad idea because that's this probably exists somewhere. But if I was doing it, like I would give him the expressions from when he won, like the moment of him like having like crying or whatever he was doing, probably not crying, but like this stuff to stuff to tell a story, you know, that's what you really want to do. So encapsulate the stuff to tell the story. So ideally, I would try to choose a figure that has really cool deco, like a really cool design on him. Uh, something not so insane that we could never afford it, but something that's like really cool, really memorable, and then just execute it the best I can to tell that story and complete that vision. So we when people see it, they are instantly connected and like think back to that moment when they watched it or when they have anything in their heart, like watching old growing up old wrestling. Like, if it could touch that same area, like bring that remnant, like remember that so they can reminisce about those times with the figure. I think that's like what I try to work towards and try to see something memorable and that people are.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So I guess you could you could probably narrow it down to I guess like execution of details or you know, just being detailed in it. Yeah, that's yeah, I mean that makes sense. I mean, I've I think that's probably one of the things you hear the most out of collectors, right? They oh man, I didn't collect, and then I walked down the aisle and they had WrestleMania 13 Stone Cold right there, tapping out or passing out. There it is, and you know, they connect to that. It's almost like these action figures, and I've heard collectors talk about it before, but the action figures almost connect you to moments in history, whether it's your childhood or you know, you and your dad went to that WrestleMania or whatever the case was. So yeah, I mean that that's fantastic. Yeah, I like the accent you gave that guy, but theoretical it's just that's just the standard MDT accent.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

But yeah, definitely, absolutely that's hard for me when I collect like a lot of stuff. Like, oh, that's like I don't know. Also different me though, because I collect a lot of random things and I just like the designs, like this Venom pool. Never heard of the character, but I was like, Healy looks so freaking cool, like I need that, and he's huge. So I'm like, look at it.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

That that happens to me all the time. I think that's Nate, maybe not can speak to it as much, but it's it I think it's like just being a fan of action figures. Like, I saw this random, like Cayman Riders figure. I have zero idea what the plot is. I Googled the plot the other day because I had no idea. I'm like, what is this show about? But I saw this sick figure, and I'm like, dude, that just looks so damn cool. I'd love to have that action figure just because it looks insane. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Totally. Like you would think I'm the biggest Marvel fan. Like I don't like Marvel at all, but I have all these figures. Oh, yeah. I think that's crazy. That's another thing, too. Like, you touch on like how it looks. I I also want to make sure it looks really cool so that you don't know anything about it, but you saw it, you'd be like, that is the coolest thing I've seen. Like, I need to have it for some reason, you know. That's big, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah, tell us a little bit about like your collecting habits and you know, your love of you know, figures and WWE and how you got started collecting.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Uh, I grew up watching WWE during that chairs, like I think everyone in America, so that's like in the 90s. So I was all about it back then. I had a whole shed of action figures from Jax. I can't remember, I think it was the Bone Cruncher they had, and then going into the uh Titentron era, that's when I most started collecting. And that Titan Tron for me was like the peak of everything, being able to play the music and have like everything. And I was always so I could never find the figures I wanted to play the songs, so I was always just touching it and trying to make it play it randomly, which it never did. So I was wanted to hear like road dog or someone who I never had. But that was around that time, yeah. And then uh I stopped watching wrestling for a little bit, and I was mostly into like Ninja Turtles, I think around 2004, 2003, when that show was coming on, and I got really deep into that line, so I have all those still somewhere. And yeah, after that, like that kind of just hit me like someone had sculpted these, and like you can make these, like this was a job for someone to actually bring these in like into the real world, like from the cartoon to the physical product, and so I kind of just tailored everything towards that goal of getting where I'm in now to do toy design.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

So, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That is awesome. Also, shout out the O3 Turtles, man. Everybody always glazes all these other turtles, and I'm like, nah, man, O3 Turtles are p. And I'm not even like a huge Ninja Turtles guy. When I tell Ninja Turtles, it's O3 Turtles. Like when I like my son wants to watch Ninja Turtles, we're throwing on O3 O3 version. So that's good right there. But I had my other question was going to be uh, you know, have do you feel like in your time with Mattel, do you think you've made, you know, you probably have your superstars that you are your holy grails or your superstars that you hold above everyone else? You have your personal GOAT, I'm sure. You know, have you made your dream figure or superstar yet? Has there been a moment that you haven't been able to make that you really want to? Or is there a really big moment from your childhood that you remember, or during those Titan Trun live days where you're like, man, I'd love to make a figure of this moment. And have you have you done that yet? Has it been in the works? Or I mean, you know what you can speak on, but have have you done some of that?

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Uh I've definitely got to make my favorite wrestler, Penta. So that's like always my bucket list thing. Doing the first one and then doing one here, that's like huge for me. But beyond that, I think the coolest one I've done was the WrestleMania 13 Austin with the bloody head. That was like a huge moment. So seeing that and then being able to do the bloody version, and it was like the first bloody version we did, that was huge. So that was a really big moment, and that got thrown on to me like immediately as soon as I joined Bill and started working on it already, and then I kind of took it over, so it was really cool. That was a good moment.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah, that's huge too. Like how I mean, that's that's a pretty legendary thing, too, just because you know, like blood in the Mattel line is insane. Like, that's not something that we've really seen. So that's like a really big kind of defining moment, if you will, right there. So I think that's that's pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

I think it was in defining moments, wasn't it? Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what yeah, it's kind of crazy how that correlates right there. Everything works out.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

You had another question? Yeah, one more question before we move on to that bracket. And it was how much attention do you pay to you know the social media aspect of collecting? And has there ever been a time where you created your own you know, action figure account and you know, kind of joined the community in that sense? Or has it always been like jumping right into the professional space of becoming a designer?

SPEAKER_03 13:15

I think I jumped into the professional space before social media was like as it is now with like a lot of creators and a lot of people doing like photography and things like that. Uh I started like in 2010 or 11. I don't think Instagram was around back then yet. Maybe it was. Yeah, it probably wasn't. So I was a little bit before that when I was started working full-time. I was at Jack's back then, and I wasn't doing action figures yet, I was doing like sports equipment and stuff later on, but anyway. Uh so I didn't interact with it myself making the figures, but I've now I think big part of wrestling and community online is like what I really like about it is how many people there are, and like how many like people this touches and affects, and how much they actually love collecting or hate it or complain. But I do I keep a pretty good finger on the pulse and I see what people are saying. Like, I don't read too many criticisms because I feel like that's just a bad for my mental health. But uh when there's something I see a lot, like I'll definitely note it and like, oh, can we need to improve this in the future? This is needs to be improved or whatever, and then people will message me all the bad stuff, so I see it, you know. So but yeah, uh, I never did any customs yet. I think we're talking earlier. Like, I would love to make customs myself. Uh we talked about super bad, and that'd be like the one thing that never got figures that needs figures. So yeah, that'd be great. That would be fantastic, dude.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

If they ever made like straight up, I've talked about this a lot, but if they ever made straight up, and like I feel like the doors open now because NECA and all these other companies are making they're starting to kind of dabble more and more, they're getting deeper and deeper. I would love to see like a happy Gilmore. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, like there's just so many, there's so much potential there. Like they did home alone, they've done these different things. There's so many. I think that you know, and as years go by, I think we'll start to see more of that, you know, just because um, and I think there's a market for it, and I think it's only growing like we see it with Robocop, we see it with Terminator, we see it with Predator, we see it with you know what I mean. So I think the door's definitely open. It's just yeah, it's time to cash in the money in the bank briefcase and make these things. Yeah, I mean, it's easy, like uh an Adam Sandler three-pack. I don't know. Like you could do so many cool things, I think.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

But do you play Madison with wet pants?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, like there's just so many. You I mean uh it'd be hard to kind of narrow down maybe the three faces of Sandler, but you could, you know, you could debate that, and that's up for them to decide. But yeah, that's something I'd like to see. But yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's cool, man. Really cool to hear about you know your your background there and getting into it. One I think I had one final question before we dive in, and that goes back to your what you were just talking about with the with the customs thing. You think if you didn't have maybe a full job full-time job in action figures or something like that, do you think that that kind of takes away from your personal collection or personal collecting habits or personal projects when it comes to action figures because it's kind of your full-time gig? Or how do you balance that or what's that look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yeah, I think I probably never got into customs because I was doing it working. So like I wouldn't want to keep working after work, you know. So it's like it's uh so I do other stuff I make like music on my computer, play around on my piano, stuff like that. I have other creative outlets I or uh get to, but then also just unwinding watching baseball or watching something completely unrelated, you know. Yeah, for sure, man. Consume so much wrestling, it's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, I guess that Nate, you have any more questions? You want to get into this bracket? I think it's time to get into the bracket. Let's go. All righty, all righty. Magic, are you excited for the magic almost ultimate bracket? Yeah, I'm excited to see what you guys pulled. Okay, so all right, here we go. So just a few little pointers out there to everybody. Okay. We excluded ultimates. We didn't think it was fair, okay. We didn't want to include ultimate editions just because, you know, I mean, I think people would probably fight over, you know, well, it comes with more, the price point, all these different things, right? So we excluded ultimates, and some of them are seated correctly, and then some of them are not seated correctly, and we tried to only include things that we have in hand. There are a couple exceptions and a couple gray area, but for the most part, we have all these in hand. And I think it's gonna be fun. We'll start off. We have a few preliminary rounds, like some of the top seeds have buy buys in the first round. So, like we have some little mini matchups, and then they move on to take on other characters. But this is the official bracket, man. I'm excited. Let's get into this. And I guess what how what we'll do is I will I'll tell you the two figures. We'll debate, we'll each get a vote. Whatever figure, you know, two to two to one moves on. Maybe it's a 3-0 sweep, maybe it's you know, whatever. Uh somebody will probably end up being the tiebreaker, but are y'all ready? Sounds good. Let's go. All right, let's go. First matchup we have Monday Night Wars Steve Blackman versus defining moments, white shorts, CM Punk. So, yeah, we have two two kind of completely different vibes here. You know, we waited forever for both of these figures, really, in the Mattel line. So, what's your first thoughts when you see this matchup? I'll go to Magic. What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_03 18:27

This is a tough matchup for me, especially because I really loved that CM Punk with the white shorts. I really wanted to get that in the line because, like, it's you know, debut CM Punk, like early unknown, like a really unique look for him, too. And I think it's kind of sought after because it's like kind of what he's known for before he got to WWE. So it's cool to make him in the WE line this way. But at the same time, the Steve Blackman, he was super sought after, and like it's he's never had a figure in our line. So uh, I think that's probably the reason I'm gonna go Steve Blackman on this in this one case. Okay, Nate's actually cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

What's your thoughts, Nate? It's interesting. Yeah, we've waited for a Steve Blackman for so long. I never really expected that kind of CM Punk to ever get made, so it's very interesting and really cool that that got put into the line. That this is very tough because they're both great figures. Oof. Uh, you know what? I think maybe because the punk is much more unique, I might go with the punk. But they're both great figures, and it was awesome to get a Steve Blackman after so long.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

You know, I totally forgot too. He has those shorts out of like rubber. It's like totally kind of new thing we did there.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna I was gonna mention it. I think that this is so tough. And then of course the first tiebreaker comes to me. I I love both of these. I've unboxed both of these, talked about them both. The Steve Blackman talked about forever how you know sought after it is and whatnot. God, the white shorts punk is so cool too, because you could get what that elite 124 punk jacket and throw it on there and kind of complete the look. Uh, this one's very tough, but I I think I'm gonna go with Steve Blackman. I think. I think I'm gonna go with Steve Blackman. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

You can't go wrong, he's really good. The cheese head, like he was came out of the great accessories. So cool. I I like that. He was a guy I really liked growing up too.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, super underrated, man. Super underrated.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Him and Al Snow. I really want Al Snow to come back to the line. I want that would be awesome. Yeah, Al Snow would be huge, man. Maybe we'll get can we get away with head? Yeah. I think we could personally, yeah. I think like it's a different world we live in, you know. Like we're making actor figures, it'd be an actor figure head. We do side separate heads all the time, you know. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I mean it's just a mannequin head. Like, I feel I don't know, you know. All right. Next up, we have another unique matchup here. We have Defining Moments Ray Phoenix. I think I have him taking on Royal Rumble Elite CM Punk in the red. Ooh. Yeah, okay. There we go. Yeah, Ray Phoenix. Dude, fantastic. Uh I love the jacket on that Ray Phoenix. Just so good.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah, he came out awesome. I was watching his live stream recently, and he had this like on his shelf, like on top. I was like, Oh, that's pretty sweet. And he had like figures that his figures lined up, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah, I mean, you probably met how many of his figures have you made? You've probably made a ton of them.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Yeah, I think at least five. I think this being number five.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Hey, question for you before we go into our decision on this is that your favorite Ray Phoenix that you've ever done, or is there an AEW one that might top it?

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Uh my corporate answer is this is the best one we've ever done. So this is the greatest one. But uh, I think a close second, if there was one, would be that silver one we did, and I think Unmatched 7. Yeah, that one is great with the silver, his logos all over his pants. Like that came out really cool. And then the death triangle one. I didn't work on that one, but that's like a kind of a recolor of that same figure. Uh, that one came out really cool. That death triangle three pack wouldn't have the silver jacket. Uh that was in the unmatched.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, the unmatched the unmatched one has a silver jacket. Yeah, that's a great jacket. Yeah, that jacket came out fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yes, this is even better because it's it's made by Mattel.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Well, dude, that jacket, that jacket is insane. And then the Ray Phoenix defining moments. I don't know what it is. I literally have it right here. Drop that this figure. There's something about I don't know if Mattel did something different, but like the deco hits on this, I they were not applied the same way the other ones were. I don't know what it is about like on the kick pads. Like, this is like there's a printed, it's like lifted, and it's not I don't know. All the deco on here is insanely clean. Like, I don't think I've ever seen it done this way.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

We did some unique stuff for this one. Thanks for reminding me. He has molded in glitter effect, so it's like kind of a metallic flake in the pants to kind of represent like how he had it like holographic iridescent pants in real life. But then also what you're pointing to on the legs, it's like a printed gradient, so it's yellow going to red, so it has that like ombre.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, dude. That's so and I was gonna mention the thing about the glitter being in there. I mentioned it in my review. It's just insane. Like the glitter is literally like in the figure, like it's a crazy, it's a really crazy figure, super sweet.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Yeah, that's one thing it doesn't show up in photos too well, but I think it's really cool once we have it in hand.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

You can see it and like yeah, and it has and it has ultimate feet, so yeah. Sometimes we get ultimate feet. Yeah, sometimes we do get ultimate feet, but the other one we can't we can't just leave the Royal Rumble Elite Punk in the dust here. All right, Royal Rumble Elite Punk probably uh I mean you could I don't know, you might get argued defining moment, kind of. Like he's out there, he's gotten the promo, he's got the you know, got the unique facial sculpt, he's got the thick beard, which is my favorite version of punk. I like the thick beard punk. Yeah, so do you have that one, Nate?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

I don't actually have that one in hand, the Rumble Elite Punk. I had the basic when I was a kid and I always loved that gear. I haven't gotten around to getting that figure yet, but I think that's a fantastic attire, and I think the head scan's really nice on that too. So props to you on that.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Thank you. Yeah, that was like a really specific, like the you need straight edge. Like he had there's a photo of him doing that, so it's like really specific. I remember in your review, you said you didn't know what that expression was.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, it was it was such a like sometimes sometimes I do think that it's almost like so certain things translate better to figures than others, and sometimes I wonder, you know, maybe why did you know certain choices be made? But I think that head sculpt that head sculpt's grown on me more, and I think I even ranked it the number one figure from that wave, if I'm maybe number two, but I remember like in the review itself, I think I discussed it, and then later in the review, I say, I don't care. This is still a sweet figure, like it's still really sweet and it moves well.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

The likeness came out really good too, and the DIJ came out really nice. So yeah, I think it was pretty good. But that being said, I for the sake of this, I do think the Phoenix is probably taking my vote here. Uh-huh. Nate, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

And for me, I mean they're both great figures, but I think, yeah, Ray Phoenix, it comes with you know the great jacket as well, and it's the first Ray Phoenix Elite that we've gotten. And yeah, I think the execution's really well done.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

I'm going Ray Phoenix as well, man. That's a clean sweep. I think that you know, it was a good, you know, Royal Rumble Elite Punk solid, but I think Ray Fan Ray Phoenix is the better figure, in my opinion. We're gonna go Ray Phoenix right there. But that takes us into the other half of this defining moments wave with the next one. We have Defining Moments, Ricky Saints going up against the SummerSlam Elite China figure.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

So this one, I Ricky, he's such a nice person, and I like love him so much. I like it's hard for me to put anything above this because I put so much love into this because knowing how cool of a person he is. So I think, yeah, this is just a really special figure. He's such a cool guy. But again, again, you got the soft good vest, the PU leather, and then the cool, like faux, I think Louis Vuitton print. And it's like his debut matches when he won the belt.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

It's funny when I when I bring up Ricky Saints, I I know I've told Nate before, I bring this up all the time on my channel, even when I talk about him. I'm like, this dude's like the coolest dude that you'll ever meet. Like, he'll sit there and he'll talk action figures with you, and he's just like a really down-to-earth cool guy. So I like I'm rooting for him in every single possible way. Like, I want him to succeed, and that's why I enjoy his figures. And I I don't know if he has a bad figure necessarily. I think even like all the figures in his catalog have been pretty sweet, pretty good likeness, all those different things. Yeah, that SummerSlam. I ain't gonna lie, though, that SummerSlam Elite China is damn good, though. I I have to say, yeah. I think I have her somewhere. I do have her. Nate, do you have any any thoughts on these?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Did you pick up either of these yet? I do have the Ricky Saints. I don't have the China in hand. That does look fantastic, though. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

The cool head. Yeah, it what what I really love about that China is the the unique sculpts on the top, and then the belts and the buckles, and the arms, yeah. The arms are jacked, he just has a lot going on, and it's probably I think it's yeah, I'm I'm I think I think it's safe to say, I think it's the best China action figure possibly ever made.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah, like high compliment. I know people really like the Monday Night War China, also.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

It's good too. It doesn't have the ball joint waist, though, does it? No, but I think that belt though, the belt's cool.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Yeah, what seals it for me is I was a huge fan of China growing up, like huge, huge. Yeah, uh, so I think for me for nostalgia reasons and for the reason like we got all this cool deco in here.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, dude, it would it's a crazy feel, and like all that's sculpted in too. Like it feels nice, it's like it's not you know flat, it's got like texture to it, it's got the studs in there, show better, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

I hate to put this over Ricky, but I'm gonna have to. I think this gets my vote. China, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

I I think I'm also going with the China, and that again that pains me because I do love Ricky.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

And his figure is so cool. Like, I didn't work on the head sculpt. John did the head sculpt for this main event, it looks just like him. I was like, Wow, it's like a little mini Ricky Saints, it's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, I think they're both they're both great, but even though I don't have that in hand, I think the China is like the better figure because of the details of the attire, and just it's a perfect representation of China, so I have to go with China.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah, I think I would agree. I it also has the gauntlets, like it just has a lot going on with it, man. It's a it's a lot, not to me like it also has ankle pivot on those crazy boots, like those boots have crazy ankle pivot. Like, that's nuts.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah, these boots are fun.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Yeah, just like how high the heel is and like the buckle, super fun to sculpt, and and you even got the like all those buckles and belts, like it's it's low-key unfair.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, a lot of love putting this one, a lot of unique parts.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

So, yeah, it shows too. You can see it. It's it's fantastic. So, SummerSlam China moving on. I'm telling you, this this next round is gonna be stupid with how much like we're gonna be doing, but there's like a lot of really good matchups. I'm excited. All right, next up, we got two Monday Night Wars figures going head to head, and they're two of I'd argue, probably possibly two of the better Monday Night Wars elites that we've seen in the last couple years. We have the Road Dog, I think from Greatest Hit Series 3. It's got the DX jersey, you know, got the bucket hat, things like that, and then you have Albert in there, which was on the list for so long, very unique. It's got all the body hair. Like it's like this matchup is very tough for me.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

This is an extremely hard one. I would say the Albert one I joined right as it's like maybe uh still being sculpted, like towards the end of the sculpting life cycle. So I gotta make some changes to the sculpt and tweak it a little bit. But like it came out so good. Like the head sculpt was already done when I came in, but it like it looks just like him in the body sculpt, which I tweaked mostly, but like all together, like I love that figure, like it was so cool, and then the black and silver, it came out really cool. But then on the other hand, I was such a huge fan of Road Dog, and getting to work on that for me was like a personal highlight. I really loved that, and then the jersey was like a really cool thing to do. Even working on that, that the jersey was really cool, it was like a jersey material. Yeah, so it's really this is a really tough one because I was a big fan of Albert too, like the TNA, him and tests, like those are cool dudes. I don't know, I'm actually torn. Nate, you want to go?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, I I think they're both great executions, but I'm gonna have to go with Albert. I just think it's just such a unique looking figure and a great representation representation of Albert. I'd love to see an A-train too, one day. More hair and everything, the hairy back, yeah, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

100%. That was one note. I remember coming in. We had to add more hair to like I think his shoulders have it. I can't remember where we put it.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah, it's a crazy one. It's it's really, really insane. And he's he's not stiff, too. Like he he moves really well, like he feels good in the hand. So I I'm voting Albert, so it really doesn't, you don't have to decide because I'm picking Albert.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Saying road dog, just so he's not a there you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

But that road dog, I love that road dog too. I think it's super underrated. I think if you see that at retail, absolute purchase. It's it I'd have to do some thinking. I think it's the best road dog that Mattel's ever done. I think when you consider all the bells and whistles, the jersey. That jersey, dude. I mean, we've been waiting for years on that. So I think that's uh that's a good one there. But let's move on to the next round, or not the next round, but the next matchup. So this is another kind of uh preliminary round here. We have set so this is one of those ones that's not in everybody's hands yet, but it's out there and people have it in hand, so I think it's fair. We have Saturday night's main event elite CM Punk with the leg tattoos. This is you know with the blister card and everything, and that is going head to head with a repaint of a similar figure in the Saturday night's main event line, which is going to be defining moments J Uso with the light blue and pink. And I don't know this one. I think this one's uh a little bit closer than people may think right off rip.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

My immediate thought is to put CM Punk over because of the tattoos and the chair. The chair, I think, is like an underrated accessory for that one. Has the DIJ, like uh the event, whatever it was, the poster that yeah. So that thing that was a pretty cool touch, like adding the event chair. It's like that's kind of a cool collectible.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And then the people want to see that more if I'm not mistaken. I think that I hear that from people that like they should do the chairs more, event chairs more, what have you.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

That could be its own segment, it's like the event with the chair somehow, you know, or like the thing with the chair.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Maybe even a good I was just gonna say that could be I don't I don't know how well it would do, but like maybe even a main event line, that'd be kind of a cool, you know, pay-per-view main event line or something. You get the chair, and then you get a you know, a basic. Used to do like the WrestleMania Heritage figures and stuff, SummerSlam Heritage basic stuff like that, and kind of that similar deal there. Nate, do you have either of these?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Yeah, I do. I have well, we don't have that Saturday night's main event yet. I just want to mention though, I want more just normal chairs too, though. Like I don't want them all to be, you know, the cushioned ones, you know? Yeah, but I I'm actually filming a match right now with that defining moments J Uso. It's one of the figures that's on my display. It just pops. I love that colorway for J Uso. So it this is a tricky one because that CM Punk, such a great likeness, the head scan's incredible, it's got that new torso, and you know, this new upcoming one that we're talking about has those leg tattoos, which is a a huge like innovation for Mattel to you know include those. And I've wanted that for so long. So this is very tricky. Oof.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Are we talking about the Saturday main event Jay? Sorry, I got confused.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yeah, because you Trey, you mentioned the defining moments. Yeah, it's the defining moment.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Yeah, oh okay. I thought we're talking about Saturday main event one. That defining moment Jay has a lot of cool things too, like the yeat hands. I really like that. I thought that was so fun. The foam yeah, came to me. He said, We need to give them foam hands.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I'm like, okay, it's got what it's got the icy title, it's got the entrance vests, got the ye glasses, got the foam hands, the very MDT colorway, the white and blue. Well, that's the thing, too. I was gonna say, you know, when Jay Uso was coming out in all these bright colorful gears, I was like, man, they've I think Mattel's made every gear that I wanted out of his, you know, his yeet run, or like that singles run that when he was taking off. I think y'all, y'all made legitimately all the ones I wanted. So I was like, hey, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Uh I'm gonna vote for I'm gonna go for dividing moments, uh Jay, because I feel like you guys are gonna vote the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Okay. This yeah, it's very tricky. Uh, because I love the the colorway, but the head scan, like it's a it's cool, but I prefer my figures to have like a normal like expression or have an option for a normal expression. So since the CM Punk head scan is so good, probably arguably the best Camp head scan that we've ever gotten, I'm gonna have to go with the CM Punk.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, I think like what makes the punk cool too is the innovation of the new torso, like we mentioned. You get the like basically perfect likeness, you're getting that sculpted tape on the wrist. Like, there's just so many like new unique things, and not that the J Uso doesn't, but I think that the collected package, I think I value the the punk. And if you're going like package for package, even looking at packaging, they're very close too. Like that new blister card's incredible. So yeah, I I think I'm gonna go with punk, but it's not an e I don't think it's like you know, wide open basket. I think it'd be a contested layup at most.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Like not a good one. There's a lot of like little things really good about the punk that you're talking about, like the sculptorist hands, the tattoos, like you'd have to be kind of a real hardcore collector to notice these things, you know? Yeah, that's why I kind of lean on Steve a lot at work because he listens to everything and sees all the you know, all the feedback, and he's so clued in, like, he's always able to help push these things and help like make the product the best it can be. Like with these little things I might miss completely, he'll be on it, you know. So yeah, 100% Steve for that.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

How much of a a fight, maybe, was it to get those sculpted wrist tape hands into the line?

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Uh, I don't think that one was a fight. I think that was just a matter of getting it in, like the tooling budget and making sure we had it, you know, doing something innovative for him. And once we had decided we're gonna do like a new torso for him, I think it was pretty easy. It's like, oh, let's also do the wrist tape, make sure he has the wrist arms and the gauntlet. I think they might have existed too. So they all slowly kind of came together. I think one figure had the hands, one figure had the wrist tape, and then I did the torso for like a top picks. So like that one just kind of all came together in one, like, oh, now we have it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, that's cool. How it's kind of crazy how like these little things happen over time, and then you get this like incredible incarnate, like you know, you waited on the per maybe the like there's been good heads, it's like the perfect head, and then it's like, okay, now we have the pretty much perfect body, and then okay, now we have the wrist tape, and now we have the leg tattoos. It's like really crazy how it all kind of comes together over time. But I guess Punk is moving on to the next one, which will be a fun little matchup too, it in in the future here. But this next one, I I don't think this one I don't know, that's not fair. That's not fair. Let's let's run through it. You guys may feel differently. Next up, our matchup is Survivor Series War Games 1, 2, 3 kid versus Monday Night Wars ABA Undertaker with the bandana and the denim and the jacket, which was one of my I loved that reveal. I think it was WrestleMania 41 out in Vegas, the first time to Vegas, which was really cool. Like, I loved that figure. I think we've talked forever about getting you know that version of Taker. My one of my favorite years of pro wrestling, and it may be a controversial thing, but I love 2001. I think 2001 is super nostalgic for me. I love it. And so anything from that era of wrestling is just so incredible for me. But I already know my vote, you guys can discuss amongst yourselves.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

I think I'm gonna go a sentimental vote, and I'm gonna say the Undertaker because that was literally one of the first figures I worked on, also, where I got to like do the head sculpt and came in like a little late in the process, but got to put my fingerprint on it pretty heavy, and then that jacket, like the long trench coat came out really cool, and then like the American Badass was always my favorite at Persian of Undertaker. Uh and then what was the other one? Sorry, totally forgot one, two, three kit Survivor series. I really like that one too. I always joke around because like it has thug written on it, you know, but I always look like Stewie. I'm like, is that right? Like, is that how I actually looked? And I looked at the reference, it looks like it says Stewie, like T H U Y on the on the Survivor Series War, like the purple, red, and white one? Oh, wait, I'm thinking of the wrong one. I'm thinking the black one, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, I think I'm talking about the the purple one, like it's like purple, white, black. I can grab them real quick if you want. Yeah, grab them. Xbox six, all of them. This is the one I'm talking of. Six, that's what I'm thinking of. That's where I got uh wrong. Oh yeah, that one's awesome. Yeah, this one look at him, he's got his Dami award in there. As for my vote, yeah, as for my vote. I'm waiting what what did he win? Oh, he won the sleeper figure of the year. Like, I went in, I'm like, ah, yeah, one, two, three kid. Then I unboxed it. I'm like, yeah, this is one, two, three kid, by God.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah, yeah, I think they're both excellent choices. I think they're both good representations of the character. I'm just gonna have to go with the one, two, three kid because I like the the singlet, the colorway, and the head scan is just bang on. So, yeah, that's gonna get my vote. What do you think, Trey?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you, man. I I love this figure, I think it's so damn underrated. Like, I like people that don't even know who one, two, three kid is, if you don't know who Xbox is, whatever, go get this figure. It's just awesome. I I I just love that. I don't know if it's the color palette, if it's the likeness, if it's both, and also like the metallic gold that mixes with all the other colors. It's like such an underrated look. Like, I genuinely look at this figure and like, damn, that's awesome. Yeah, it came out pretty awesome. That's a good one. It's it's uh yeah, fantastic work on that one. So one, two, three kid moves on. But the Undertaker, though, again, is incredible. I do love that Undertaker. Alrighty. Next up, we have the WrestleMania 13 box set, like we've talked about before. We have the Stone Cold from that box set, which I know we've seen different iterations of him here and there. I think he's it's pretty much a Summersun Elite with a few corrections. It's kind of the defining moments elite, but with a few corrections, like there's some different things going on there. Yeah, he's got the beat beefier legs, things like that. And then up next to him is going to be the WrestleMania 24, WrestleMania 42 Build-A-Figure Elite John Cena with the black, orange, and white 54 jersey, you know, with uh, you know, the 2008 HLR Hustle Loyalty Respect attire.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

So this one's a SummerSlam version. I think uh WrestleMania has a soft good. This one's a molded plastic.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, but I think don't they they have the same head, the same build? Yeah, pretty much, pretty much the same.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Uh even though I'm holding this, I think that John C, I really like that one. I really like that jersey. That jersey is what sells it for me for that one.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

I think too, like, yeah, you make a good point. I think too, like for me, it's the like obviously that is Stone Cold in that three-pack, it's a it's a defining moment, it's iconic, it's like the perfect definitive stone cold. But I think it may does it hurt it that we've we we've had like so many Austin's like back to back to back. Do we kind of overlook this elite a little bit because there's been the Mattel Creation's King of the Ring, and there's been the legends, and there's been the Money Night Wars Ultimates, and there's been the Elite Series 122, like there's been so many Austins, and I love them all. I want them all, I have them all, you know, like they're great. But I do like that Cena, I don't know, man. That Cena special. Nate, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Oh, that's tricky because I think they've like really upgraded the the Steve Austin's, you know, with the bulkier legs and arms and the head scan is great, and even you know, like the the leather jacket as well, so that's really cool. The Cena, I love the new torso, I love you know the jersey. It's not like one of the most like nostalgic attires for me for Cena, so it's very tricky. I mean, yeah, you could go either way. What do you think, Magic? I'll let you pick first.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

I'm gonna go Cena because it was fun to find a look that they hadn't made yet. So it was fun to find something like famine in the rough, like, oh, we should make this, and then it's kind of really cool and the cool 54 jersey. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go Cena.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah, yeah. For me, I think I might have to go Cena too, because I think that that jersey really does sell it. And with the new torso, I think it's definitely uh something worth buying for your Cena collection. What about you, Trey?

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, I think I'm in agreement, and it really pains me too, because of what you've mentioned about the Austin Elites, like genuinely waited forever to get these kind of upgrades to Austin. We talked about it for years, but the the John Cena, and I've talked about this a lot too, is just the John Cena body mold, especially with the new torso, it's just so great. I love it, it's like almost timeless because like it's been around for years upon years, and it's just timeless. Like you give it the double jointed arms, upgrade the torso, give them a new jersey, and it's just I don't know, it's timeless. You get the new removable bands. I know it's not necessarily new, but you know what I mean. It's newer, they're no longer painted on. Like, there's just a lot of fun things there. I'm gonna go with the Cena, and that's the battle of my two goats right there. But I think the Cena advances.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Like we're talking about with the CM Punk with like iterative uh improvements along the way, like the torso is now with the new one for Cena. So it's like it's kind of an upgrade from the previous one, even that Austin, like you're saying, new improved legs.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

100%, man.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

100%. But we move on to our last preliminary round until we get into the actual, you know, the one seed we'll have a battle and stuff like that. We have top picks Roman Reigns. This is the one that was revealed at Comic-Con last year, new torso, meme head, things like that. Versus this is a this is a pretty cool matchup. Defining moments, Paul Heyman from ECW One Night Stan. This is an interesting one. Nate, what's your initial thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 44:33

This is very tricky because you know that Paul Heyman is very, very cool. You know, the accessories it comes with, you know, the jacket, the hat. Uh, does it come with the like a lanyard sort of thing? Yeah. Yeah, I have him right here. I'll grab him. Yeah. And you know, the Roman Reigns, I think that new torso is awesome. I think the head scans, really cool new head scans there. But yeah, that Heyman is really well done. Ooh, this is tricky. You want me to to vote first?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, you go ahead and give your vote, and then then I'll give my vote. That way I'm not always the deciding factor, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

There you go. Yeah, I think I think uh as far as like what's a better representation of the character, I might have to go with Paul Heyman. I think that that's really well done. And I think you know, I I think it just has a slight edge on the Roman. What's your vote, Magic?

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Oh, we're going to Trey, I think, right? Yeah, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Oh, you want to go Trey next? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

This this Paul Heyman's great. I love this new jacket. I love the the all access, you know, ECW little uh card ID thing. It's just such a cool little detail. The ECW hat. I like that kind of like penguin grimacing like little POS head sculpt. Uh but I I think I'm gonna go with the Tribal Chief on this one. And it's very close and hard, but I think I think I'm gonna I'm gonna go Roman Reigns. And it I think I think I'd rather like if I pick these both up, I'd rather like pose around and play with the Roman over the Paul Heyman, and that's literally the only thing I have. Uh like outside of that, the Paul Heyman probably would win, but I I'm gonna go with the Trouble Chief.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Nice. So the Roman is really cool, like you said, upgraded torso, brand new sculpt for him, specific to him, which is always fun. And then the two new heads on there, which are new expression, then the meme head that matches like the uh CM Punk from that same set. And I think it actually came with the hands, too. So you can hit a lot, yeah, yeah. The handshake of the hand, yeah. So a lot of really fun things about that, and like you said, iterative improvements, like small improvements over time. Uh, so that's really cool. But I think honestly, for me, the Paul Heyman just really blows it out of the water. Just the accessories, the likeness is really fun and crazy. And this the trench itself is like so nicely made. I was really blown away by how good it came back.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

And then it reminds me, it reminds me a lot of like the it kind of gives me like Toy Biz Marvel Legends vibes, kind of on the on the uh jacket. Like, I don't know. Like, that's just the it kind of reminds me, like it brings me back. I don't know, which is I I I like I like it. Like, it's just sick. I don't think this coat's ever been redone either.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

So no, and then yeah, then like underneath it has like a full suit underneath, also, and then the moment in time the ECW on at stand is like such a good time, like the the whole video watching that it's like so much fun. It was fun to revisit that episode and uh just uh research this figure. That was cool.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that Heyman. I'd love to see some more modern day Heymans because we've only really gotten that one, and there's so many different suits you could do, different facial expressions, is such an expressive character. I think it would be great to get another Heyman wherever you could fit it in, fit him in.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

I want to do the meme here, him like I'm the bad guy when I'm the blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah, yeah, or like when when the streak was broken, sort of expression, too. Like there's so many different expressions crazy.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

That would be a crazy, yeah. That'd be sick. So that is the so Paul Heyman will move on to the next round. Now we're going back up to the top of the bracket where we initially started off with Steve Blackman. He is coming back, and unfortunately, Brad, he has to go one-on-one with not the Undertaker, but Defining Moments Pinta.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Penta? Did we talk about Penta already?

SPEAKER_01 48:13

No, we have not talked about Penta. He had a bye, he had a bye in the first round.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

I have Defining Moments and Elite 126 right here.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

I got Defining Moments here with me as well. Mine's on the shelf.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Nate, what are you doing? You're left out. He point and laugh at him.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Um I'll let you guys go because I mean it's this one's an obvious one for me, but I'll let you guys discuss it. I don't know if you feel differently.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with the the penta. And I mean, you see it's on back order until like December. Like it is a very sought-after figure. It's it's like pretty much perfect like execution of penta and the innovations with the the mouth expressions, like throws it over the top, and it's like it might be the only penta that we get with the set of mirado hand, so yeah, it's it's definitely moving on for me.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Like, brother, what are we doing? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's just a menace to society out here, man. Little fighter for you. If you take the supreme hand, you can put it in the elite 126.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Now, question for magic: what do you prefer better? The the red or the black?

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Uh, I worked on this one personally, so I'm gonna say the black. And also, it's just kind of true. Like, he wears this one a lot more. Like, if you think about it, like it's this look. The red came out really fantastic, though. I know it's just a repaint, but it looks like really stellar, like red's really cool. So it's hard to really put anything between them. Because I mean, it's honestly they're pretty much the same thing. Just this one has a little more accessories, more mouths, and different, but they're essentially the same figure.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah, the pinta is unbelievable. The black and white pinta is like just unreal. Like that color palette is just unbelievable. It just I I love black and white, though. Like, I've always talked about this. I like the contrast of it. I don't know if you guys are like sneaker heads, but like I love the Jordan 11. I like like like I just love like the white and black, it's just so clean to me. So, yeah, penta's moving on. Sorry, Steve Blackman. I'm sorry. Yeah. Uh next up is an interesting matchup that I think could go either way. But we have the return of Ray Phoenix. Ray Phoenix coming back. Okay, and he is taking on the Royal Rumble Elite John Cena. This is gonna be the Indianapolis Colts attire. This is where he almost won the Royal Rumble. I was there in person, did not win it, unfortunately. But we also have the figure, the Royal Rumble winner of that year in figure form with Jay Uso. Yeah, white and pink attire, also great. But yeah, what do you think of these two figures in the matchup?

SPEAKER_03 50:58

I was mad that Bill had got to that elite, uh, that J Uso peely look before me because I wanted to put it in that Royal Rumble wave. I was like pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

It's a great, it's a great attire. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

Uh for me, this one's also he's, I think, Ray Phoenix. He comes with a cool jacket, uh, has like the green and red, like the Mexico colors, the innovations in the tights with the different paints like we talked about, and the metallic foil and uh molded into it. Yeah, the scene is really cool with that uh jersey, but I think Phoenix gets it.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah, I think the the Cena is very underrated. I think it's one of the most like I don't know, it pops like the the white and the blue. I think it has the socks as well. I think it's really good, John Cena, but I think for me, I think Ray Phoenix is is the better figure out of the two.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

I love I love both. I love that Royal Rumble Cena. I think out of I'm trying to think, I ranked all those Cena's that came out last year because I think there was like 14 or 15 of them. I'm the Cena guy, so I was like, I'm gonna rank these. I think it'd be cool. And that Royal Rumble Cena, I think, ended up being in like the top three or four Cena's of that entire year. It was really good. I really liked it. I just love the attire, so cool. I'm also like a big sports guy and football guy. So having that Colts tie in. I also attended the event, so you know, it's kind of a tie-in. But yeah, I think I'll vote for the Cena because he lost anyway. But yeah, I think I think Ray Phoenix is probably better, but that Cena, that scene is great. And again, that I know we get repaints of it, but that formula is just like timeless. It just it poses so well, it does so well. So, I mean, you can't really go wrong.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

I think we're talking about the WrestleMania one again. My bad. I got confused.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Uh, I think it wouldn't be intervene that much.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

No, I think Ray Phoenix still takes it.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. But uh, our next matchup is gonna be kind of cheating, okay. And you you may have this one in hand. I don't know. We got drug-free Mattel Creations, or you know, Doctor of Punkonomics, CM Punk, Punk Life. Oh, punk life, yeah. The punk life elite versus the SummerSlam China. I think we have a nice one brewing right here. Oh, that's a tough matchup. Yeah, look, you have it in hand, you have this matchup in hand, and I got the China also.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

We can see them side by side. Yeah, this is a tough one. Because on one hand, like this is like I really love this. There's so much really fun stuff going on again. We're talking about like improvements, like the hat swappable, so you get the two heads, but then you just change the hat. Like, yeah, kind of fun things, and then these shorts are so next level. Keep talking about where I go because like I really love how they came out with the soft PVC rubber, so you get the nice bend out of it, but then you also get the really cool texture and the wall.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Is it similar? Is it similar to the Chris Saban figure in that it you know, like it doesn't hinder articulation, like you can actually still bend it, it's like manipulate you can manipulate it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Like this one's an earlier sample, so it's a little stiffer. I think we even made it even softer, but like you can see it bends, like yeah, that bending kind of holds position, so that's good.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Yeah, yeah, that's what I loved about the Chris Saban, the Motor City machine gun figures. I I just thought that that was fantastic, like having that figure in hand. And the new Money Night Wars Brett has this too, right? The same mold, it's the same legs on that one, also.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Like, especially on import figures, they'll have like a huge gap on the back where it's like a huge divot where they cut it out just so like you can flex it all the way. Yeah, it's a good balance, keeps the aesthetic and it keeps it kind of real. But then also for this one, the soft goods are really cool. And it's got like the Larry pad, it's got the punk on the back, and then it's such a unique moment in time where he did this one thing. So it's really cool. It's a really good execution.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I wonder if that's like a thought to do, you know, those kind of shorts with you know Brock Lesnar's or John Cena's in the future. I mean, that could be a a thought or J Uso in shorts sort of thing. Yeah, that'd be cool. It's definitely something I want to incorporate more where we can when we can do.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

Yeah, yeah, that's the matchup right there. I'm gonna go with China only because I feel like this is a more definitive China, more like recognizable, iconic look, versus he just did this the one time. That's true. That being said, I think they're both really fantastic. And if you can pick this one up, I think you should. I think ringside got their hold of some. I want to say they probably pre-ordered and they're gonna resell them themselves. So if you didn't get it, you should because this figure is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Yeah, I I I've mentioned it a lot on the channel how people that miss this one are gonna see it in hand with other people and be like, damn, I should have pre-ordered that. Like, I think people are gonna be upset that they missed this one. Yeah, I think punk looks really, really, really cool. This is tough for me, man. I don't I don't think it's one way or the other, to be honest. I have that China. Nate, do you have a decision yet?

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Uh that it's so tricky because I think they're both great representations of the character. So it's I guess it's kind of a matter of like which one would you rather have personally, but I kind of want to make my decision on you know, general, like what's what's better. But uh, that's tricky because you know what? I'm I'm gonna go with the punk. I think if I had to choose one to have, I mean, if you really need a China though, that would be the one to get, I think. But yeah, me personally, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna pick punk.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

For me, the China pick was also nostalgia, too. Just like I grew up with China, so like that's really nothing really separating between them, so it's hard to choose here.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

Golly, man. I hate that I'm even like the one that's up for this because it's real like genuinely, I feel like you could go either way with this one. Like, genuinely could, yeah. I I think uh, is it even fair? It may not be fair, but I'm gonna go with Punk. He he he just has a little bit more going on. He's got like more accessories, yeah. Jersey, he's got like, I don't know, he's just got a lot of newness that's exciting, which I don't necessarily like because it's like, oh, you're you know, what what do they call that? Uh what's the what's the thing? Um what's the recency bias? Is that the name of it? Kind of playing in there. But I think I I think they're both damn good. But yeah, man, that punk's great. I also just love I love the new sneaker mold. Like I was a huge I did not like the old sneaker mold, but I think the new sneaker mold for elites is uh vastly improved, which I really like. And this even has the calf tattoos, man. I mean, like, yeah, yeah. Give me the give me the punk. It's not by a large margin, though. And he's got his socks too. Pretty fun. Yeah, man. That's that's sick. Punk wins. All right, man. We're moving on. I don't uh yeah, this probably isn't like the biggest thing ever. These guys should probably have been switched, but we have Rick Steiner, Monday Night Wars Elite, which I think is an underrated one, versus Albert, Monday Night Wars Elite. Ooh. Now Rick Steiner, Rick Steiner's a repaint of the Elite 94 or Elite 114, Elite 104. One of those. He's he's one of those. He's one of those, but it's a really cool paint deco, and he feels insane in the hand. So I don't know. There's just a he's underrated. He's probably he might be the most underrated on this entire list. Yeah. But I'm gonna go Albert on this one.

SPEAKER_03 58:22

Stage Creator, what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Uh no, I I I kind of know. Do you do you want me to vote first, or would you like to? Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm gonna go with Albert too. I think the colorway on Rick Steiner is is fantastic, but uh, Albert just it looks insane.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

So I'm gonna have to go with him. Albert would have been in my vote too, just because he's so unique, so like the sculpts and everything, I think he would win out versus like the Rick Steiner's a really cool paint, really paint, and the dog on him is really awesome.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

So yeah, yeah, I was gonna say it would it be different if we didn't already have that OG Rick Steiner. If this was like one to one OG, that I think that may bring it down. But yeah, the paint apps on him is so sick. Like, I really and he like he has the dog collar, he's got the bandana, he's got the sunglasses, he's got the back, he's just like super sick. Yeah, um, the next one is a crazy one, but somehow this is how it got seeded. We have two Saturday Night Main Event elites. We have Hillbilly Jim versus CM Punk, Saturday Night Main Events. Now interesting because Hillbilly Jim hasn't been seeing the line in over a decade. It's pretty much that OG figure, but a little differences, and then we have another kind of repaint, re-release again with CM Punk, but he's got some new twists and turns. So I think this one's I don't know, it's kind of an interesting play here.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

So the Hillbilly is interesting because, like you said, it is pretty much a repaint of the existing, but I think what we tried to do, and I think we hopefully I did X did execute it, was like update it and modernize it in a way that feels fresh. So, like we gave it Dij face printing, we updated overalls to have like the really cool denim uh texture inside of the fabric, and then I think we uh we painted on like the zipper and everything, it has like a metallic uh silver and gold printing on it. So, I think there's a lot of really cool things about that figure. Uh for just being essentially just a reprint. I think it feels really fresh and new, especially when you see it in person. I think it looks really awesome, especially on the card. Like the packaging team did so good for this Saturday Main events. Like, that card really sells the whole thing. Like, it's almost kind of unfair because like it's the packaging kind of steals the show, and like the figures are secondary to a certain extent. Like, no one really cares about the figures inside, like, oh, they just want that package, which is uh so this is a tough one, but I think for me, because just the small innovations onto the hillbilly gym. I'm gonna put him above CM Punk just this one time.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah, yeah. Do you wanna do you wanna be the the tiebreaker Trey? Or I'll let you be the tie if there is even is one. I'm gonna let you be the tiebreaker because I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Or wait, you voted Hillbilly Jim. Magic voted Hillbilly Jim.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

I am undecided yet. Oh, I'm gonna I'm going Hillbilly him. Okay. I I was gonna I was thinking of saying Hillbilly Jim too. I'm gonna go with him because I'm just thinking, like, if you gotta pick one figure for your collection, take your biases out of it. I think you know, Hillbilly Jim. We've gotten a lot of CM Punk so far, but this is the Hillbilly Jim returning to the line and with all these new innovations. So yeah, I'll have to go Hillbilly Jim. Yeah, he he just looks awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

He he really does. The punk obviously looks awesome. I I don't know. I feel like even if that Hillbilly Jim OG didn't exist and I just looked at this figure for the first time, I would still be like, damn, that looks like Hillbilly Jim. Like that's Hillbilly Jim. So I think that's kind of what and not that the obviously the punk does that too. If I never saw that punk, I'd be like, man, they really nailed it with all these different things. I'm gonna go Hillbilly Jim. And they're both a part of the exact same wave, they're both fresh at the exact same time, so it's not necessarily, you know, anything there. But our next matchup is one, two, three kid, damn the award winner, right here, versus Brian Pillman's Monday Night Wars with the crazed head and the crutch and the everything going on there, which I think was a damn good reveal back at WrestleMania 41, as well. Just a simply awesome elite. I love that figure. I think he finished top five, top six something elites of 2025 for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

So you guys want to go? I could be the tiebreaker this time. I know my answer. Pretty easy for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

You want to go first, Trey? I honestly haven't even thought about it until just now when you asked me. So give me a minute, Nate, if you want to go first.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

Okay. Uh oh, this is this is tricky. I think again, they're they're both, you know, great representations of the characters. I can't really think of like you know, any issues there. So oof. Uh I might have to go with the the one, two, three kid, because I I just love the attire. Head scan's great, but not taking anything away from Pillman, but I'm going one, two, three kid.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

I like that answer a lot, dude. I genuinely like look, I don't know what it is about this fake. I think it's just the color palette. It's just such a sick color palette. And the likeness, the likeness is crazy on this guy. Um, but that Brian Pillman, dude, that Brian Pillman head sculpt is I'd say is pretty much equal with this in terms of like, damn, that's that's the character. And then, you know, those newly tooled jeans were sick as hell. Oh man, this is so tough. I'm gonna uh I don't even like this. I don't like I don't even like making a decision on this because I feel like this is like this is like my boy right here. Like I defend this figure to the ends of the earth, but that Brian Pillman, I don't think I was doing the day. I don't think I did the dammies at the end of that specific year, I don't think. Or maybe only Monday Night Wars Ultimate Austin beat it, maybe I can't remember, man. Golly, this is tough. Uh oh. I'm gonna let Magic pick. Yeah, go go Magic. I want to hear Magic's thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Well, I think for me this one's easier just because uh Pillman, again, nostalgia for me. Like I loved Brian Pillman, this whole maniac or psycho, whatever it was, his gimmick was so good. Like I like like the curly hair, I had the curly hair just like that too. And like he's like, you know, punk rock dude. And he's like, Yeah, he has a gun, he's psycho. Anyway, Pillman went for me easily, and like the head sculpt's so good. So this way that came on, like I'm gonna I'm done. What?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

Oh, I was just gonna I think I am gonna go Brian Pillman, but it's not easy for me. I because I genuinely love this one, two, three kid, but that Brian Pillman I think it's the head sculpt, like that they somehow capture Mattel somehow captured that crazy insane look in his eye. It's pretty ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Like the expression was like a hard one to capture, and it's like it's so perfectly nailed in like in toy form, which I think is like not rare, but exceedingly hard to do. And then the hair color itself, like has the wash in it. It came out really nice, yeah. It's got that ombre look, it has brand new pants sculpt, and also has the pants.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Don't they have like the patchwork too?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

Yeah, so it's the patches and it looks really cool, and then uh again, an exoft good shirt and then a vest over it with the plastic, so it's really good figure, like can't really do much better than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

I think it also I I could be wrong. No, I think Tyler Bate may have debuted that torso. I can't remember, but he's got that new torso on him, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

I think it was is that an Austin Theory torso? Yeah, I think that was the debut.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

Yeah, it could be okay. So, yeah, I like that torso too, so that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Yeah, before before we move on to the next one, I just want to ask with the process of like creating the head scans, what do you prefer most? Like when the wrestlers come in to do the 3D like scans, or do you like making it from scratch of like older characters and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

What do you prefer? The older is definitely, I think, more of a challenge, I think a little bit more fun, you know. Yeah, I but I mean, meeting the wrestlers and getting them to come in and do scans first, they they're so generous with their time. And like they always do fun stuff, and it's like fun to make them do silly faces, you know, or like not silly, but like oh, scream for five seconds while we do this. It's always really cool. But it's also like for people men who are like someone it's not possible to do, I think it's really fun to do uh sculpts. And a lot of we do sculpts anyway, for like head scans or we don't have, we'll do hand sculpts for people. So yeah, I think it's cool. That's my favorite part.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

That's sick. I like that. Yeah, if you think of other questions, man, hammer them in there as we transition these rounds here. But next up we have I think this is what does it say? WrestleMania, what is that? WrestleMania 13. I think I think this is supposed to be WrestleMania 13 Brett. So the WrestleMania 13 three-pack Brett going up with that Cena that we discussed before. So we have the the screaming head scan Brett from that three-pack with Ken and Stone Cold Steve Austin. He comes with a leather jacket. And yeah, probably the best Brett head sculpts that we've seen in quite some time. There. I also like the Elite 90. Is it Elite 94? I like the Elite 94 head sculpt as well, was one that I liked. But the the Cena, it's going head up with the Cena. What's our thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:11

Is it Cena the Colt or the Cena the WrestleMania one? WrestleMania jersey.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

Uh I can give my initial thoughts. Like that Brett, like really, I loved working on that one. Uh, Steve had really stressed the importance of doing a good head sculpt and nailing the likeness. He said they had issues like nailing it before, and people weren't happy or satisfied with what they'd done. So uh I worked with a sculptor that I'd worked with in the past and brought him over to do this one special or particular because I knew how good he was. And I think he actually really nailed it personally, and I really liked the screaming head, how wild it was with like the hair tendrils all over him. But then the neutral one came out like pitch perfect in the sculpt uh phase, and I hope it translates to the figure well. So that was my favorite. I think we picked that one just for those reasons. How much fun I had working on that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Nice, yeah. Trey, you want to go next here?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

This one's tough because I I have only seen this three-pack one time and I did not buy it because I was in a in a rush. I I wasn't, you know, like necessarily toy hunting. You said what? So you blew it. You blew it. Had a deal for uh or Billy Madison in that. Yeah, yeah, Billy Madison. You blew it, but all right. Oh man, this is tough. Cena's my guy. I think I'm gonna go with the Cena just because I like I love I I love that formula. I like the way those Cena figures feel, and it's personally to me, I tie it in more with my my own self. Nate, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Ooh, it's it's kind of tricky. I I think I'm gonna go with the Brett. I think you know, I think there's just a lot more there with the Brett than the Cena. So I I think I'm gonna go with the Brett here.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:53

Nice there, and I can't I can't really argue with Softgrid Jacket that came out really cool and the classes thing, really fun. Even that Ken Shamrock, I'm not sure if he's on the list anywhere, but that Shamrock was a little underrated too.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

He definitely was. I uh after I said that, I was like, damn, he probably could have fit in here somewhere, possibly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Damn, do you want to run a little Brett versus Ken here?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

To move on to the next round. See, the cool thing about that Ken, like he has that super tight shirt and like it's in tight on him.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:21

So I was really making unique legs too, right? Like the whole legs are like completely new. Boots for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

Yeah, a lot of new parts on him, and then the head sculpture, two new ones. So he was really fun too. He's the same sculptor that uh both Brett and him, and they did the Austin too with like the smirking or the grimacing face. Uh but yeah, that tight shirt is really what sells it for me because how skin tight we got it. I was like really listening to the artist.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Oh, so we're having a cash in money in the bay briefcase. Ken Champ sliding in here and taking out Brett Hart.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

For me, I'm gonna say Ken for this one. Okay, things right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

I mean, yeah, I'd take his word for it. I don't have it in hand, but I think the Ken may be a little bit more exciting just because it's got some different things. I know the Brett Heads, obviously, but you know, some of that other the rest of that formula we've kind of seen before. So maybe, you know, I can uh I might get on board with a referee Ken Shamrock over the Brett Hart. Yeah, you know what? Ken moves on. Hey, sorry, Brett. Brett gets jumped in Ken Shamrock. There's somebody right now like seething at the 49. He wasn't in the bracket. You don't you don't crap on Ken Shamrock's dreams, all right?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

That just goes to show like that three pack is really good. You should pick it up if you if you can, if it's still around.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

I'm de yeah, I'm definitely gonna grab it. I'm definitely gonna grab it at some point for sure. I feel like my store, my store, man, and I think a lot of people can attest to that sometimes. You know, you have to you have to pick and choose on the aisles. So, you know, just other priorities here. But we're moving into Defining Moments. Paul Heyman returning here after his victory over the tribal chief. He's taking on SummerSlam Elite Mankind, which I think is a super underrated elite.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:04

He's really underrated for a couple of reasons. I think it's a really fun execution of mankind in general, and he's got like the WWF tie or sorry, WE tie, yeah, and then the cool soft good, it's all tattered and everything. But then the selling point for a lot of people for this one was you get the broken gold scale, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

100. Is that a new tool? Like, because we've had that in the past, right? No, this one's existing, but I mean, yeah, you can see it's barely used.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

I feel like it's hasn't been used that much because you can see the diesels are super crisp, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:39

Yeah, dude, it looks fantastic. I put it on my stone cold shelf today or yesterday when I was cleaning up. It looks incredible, it looks incredible. I like the bright gold. It'd be really cool if somehow y'all could get that snake skin on the backside. I don't know how that'd work, but that'd be cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:54

I've tried the other places, it didn't work out super well.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

I mean, I could see, I think I have a few custom belts that have back patterns like that, and it that it doesn't add anything. I think it'd be just unnecessary.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

I think if you were gonna do that, you would have to make it like you know those old WWE championships where they didn't have the plates plugged in and it was just like uh flat thing. If you were gonna do something on the back, you'd probably want to do that, I'd think. You talk about like the old WWE title and stuff, yeah, where it was like the plates were molded in rather than plugged in. Kind of like the the Daniel Bryan versus yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

Yeah, that I think that would work too because it you could see more of it, it'd probably be brighter too, because it's not a decal over black, it would be like painted on. Yeah, that is right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:40

That's totally the issue. Like these being on there like disrupts the pattern, and then it also has like the legal lines and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:45

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

Yeah, if you got rid of that, yeah, for sure. I think it'd make a better execution. Yes, yeah, it'd be nice. I'm looks really nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

I'm I'm voting SummerSlam Mankind here. Oh, what was the other one? Paul Heyman defining Paul Heyman.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:01

Oh, okay. I know my vote.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Okay, I'm I'm going Paul Heyman. I think I I still think it's a really good execution of Paul Heyman. The Mankind's great too. Yeah, I just prefer the Paul Heyman personally.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:14

Mick Foley is my favorite wrestler of all time, so it's hard for me to say, but I think the Paul Heyman edges him out just like the terms of accessories, the lanyard of the soft good jacket on that one. I think he's really cool. And this was more of like a repaint a little bit too, just a little bit of a refresh.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Yeah, it was uh what I like about it is it's I mean, it's kind of like the old SummerSlam Elite Mankind, but you you have so many new additions. You like got the ultimate happy head on there, you got that ultimate shirt with the deco on the cloth goods. I also, again, I like the new elite sneakers mold that's got the new mold over the old mold, which I really like. So yeah, yeah, I understand it completely. Yeah, the defining moments Paul Hammond's cool. He's moving on. Now we're into the I think this is the quarterfinals. Yeah, quarterfinals right here. We have four matchups. We got Pinta versus Ray Phoenix, defining moments.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:10

Oh man, look at that versus brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah, look at this.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:18

I actually never held it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

I mean, this is uh it's a good matchup, but I'm going pinta, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

Yeah, you have to go penta too.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

Yeah, it's it just is what it is. But the the the Ray Phoenix really shocked me, you know. Like when we first saw the images, I had some worries, and then when I got in hand, I was pretty blown away by by everything, the total package of it. And I think that I think it came together really nicely. And it's it it really stands out, man. Like some of these uh things that we talked about, like with the deco and just the different stuff with the glitter, like it has so much going on. Like, legitimately, if he wasn't going up with Pinta, he'd probably make it to the finals, you know what I mean? Absolutely. So I think that's where I am there. But but yeah, so we're all in agreement that Pinta's moving on here.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:04

He keeps showing up on the top ringside top 10 bestsellers every week. I'm kind of blown away every time I see it still. Phoenix Pinta or Penta.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Penta.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

Yeah, yeah. It's all yeah, I think it's on backward until like December. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

Yeah, I mean, like when I tell I mean, we'll probably talk about it here in a minute, but next up, we have a kind of an interesting development. We have drug free punk or punk punk life punk, I think is the official name. Punk life punk versus Albert, Monday Night Wars.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:35

Oh tough one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:39

For the sake of brevity, I'm gonna say punk because he comes with more accessories and more unique accessories. You probably never see a punk like this again, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Fair, yeah. Oh, that's tricky because I I love that Albert, yeah, it looks incredible. Though you are right about that, though. The punk has all those accessories for your punk collection. Like that is really gonna stand out. It's so unique. I think I'll have to go punk too.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

You're going punk. I think I would have gone Albert here, so tiebreaker there. Punk life is moving on over Albert. But that dude, that that Albert figure is that Albert is amazing. Like perfect representation, pretty much, uh like of the character. Next up is a cool one. We got Hillbilly Jim versus Monday Night Wars Brian Pillman.

unknown 1:16:34

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:35

Ooh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:36

Nice little I'll be the tiebreaker on this one because I can't decide.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:40

Oh, I didn't think of that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

Yeah, man. This one's tough for me because I'm a big Hillbilly Jim guy. Like, I like this figure. I'm really, really excited to get this in hand. This is probably and up uh that Brian Pillman was one of the most uh most anticipated elites for me at the time. And now that Hillbilly Jim is in that, he's now in that spot. Um, so it's very tough for me, too. I think all things considered, I am gonna go with the Brian Pillman, and I'm gonna go with Brian Pillman because I think that while we've waited forever to get a re-release of that Hillbilly Jim, that Brian Pillman is the first of its kind, and it's the only of its kind, and it's a really unique look of him that we have not seen again, and we may never get that exact look, and I just love the uniqueness of it. I think that you know the cloth goods, while the overalls are done again and they're upgraded and there's upgrades, those pants like that's like the first time we saw them. I don't think we've seen those pants reused again yet. So, and I'm sure they will, or uh maybe they were used on the recent Goldberg, or is that the soft the sweatpant legs?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:47

Those are sweatpant legs, and I think the newer Pillman that was revealed didn't have them either.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:52

So he was a legends, right? So he had tights. Yeah, I'm going, I'm going Brian Pillman.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:58

What do you guys feel? Well, Magic's gonna be the tiebreaker here, but this is a very tricky one. So I think I'm gonna go hillbilly gym and I'm gonna let Magic decide the final of who's going to the next round.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:13

I was really hoping you'd agree with them so I didn't have to make a decision here. Um I think you sold me saying like this is the only Pillman. I think that really won me over. That's I'm gonna go with Pillman here because they're both awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

They are they are great. I can't wait for that Hillbilly Jim. I I keep telling everybody, I'm gonna make a video on it, and it's gonna be a whole thing. I'll probably pick up two or three of them, but I'm gonna take the him necklace from Carmelo Hayes and I'm gonna dress them all of them and make him Hillbilly Him. That's gonna be like the thing. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Is that is that necklace even gonna be able to show with that big beard? I don't know. We'll figure it out, it's a very tight necklace. I'm filming with the figure right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

I'll I'll have to figure it out. We'll we'll put him bedazzled stuff in his beard, I guess. We'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:57

I'm wearing like three necklaces, they're just really tight. You guys can't see them. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, but no, but it's funny about that uh Hibblodrym, the card, the packaging is so good on those Saturday nights uh main events. It's like I if I owned them, I wouldn't want to open them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:12

So it's like here's what everybody's saying, man. They look so good. Yeah, they really like they look incredible.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:17

I think even for like Hasbro when they did it, like for Marble, like old school red, whatever. I never opened the package, and I was always so like disappointed buying them. It's like I want to play with them, but I feel like I don't want to destroy this package because it's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

That is the tough that's the toughest part about collecting like the animated Spider-Man figures and like these uh you know the retro cards. You look at that package, you're like, bro, I can't tear this up, it looks incredible. So you're like forced to buy two. It's like, damn you. All right. Uh our last matchup here heading into the semifinals is gonna be apparently uh destiny figure Ken Shamrock, referee Ken Shamrock, has cash in the money in the bank briefcase, and he is going one-on-one with defining moments, Paul Heyman, which is an interesting. Um this was so tough because I think it's it's tough because man, I don't know. I think I know my decision. Anyone else want to take the floor?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:13

Oh, you know what?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:14

I want to hear from Magic first. This is tough for me because like that Paul Heyman was one of the first final moments I worked on. So, like again, it's like emotional, and I have like a really strong attachment to it. But that Ken Shamrock is so fun, the two different heads and the tight shirt. I think it's just so funny looking to. Oh, he has a new necklace, also. I keep forgetting about that. The necklace, oh, yeah, the new necklace, and there's the new shoes, the new boots. So he's like a really unique version of Ken Shamrock, and it's like such a moment in time for him. That's like it's like you're never gonna get another referee Ken Shamrock, most likely. That all being said, I do think Paul Heyman still edges it out. That jacket is like next level. I love that thing. Yeah, everything he comes with, like that's like a complete package right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:52

Trey, you want to take this next one?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:55

I think I'm on agreement. I think I'm going to find moments, Paul Heyman. Yep, I'm going Heyman too. All right, Paul Heyman.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:05

He's making a run for it, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

Yeah, man. He's going deep. He thwarted the cash in. And now DM Heyman is on to the semi-final. So now we're into the semifinal round. We got four figures left. The next matchup is Pinta versus Punk Life CM Punk.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:27

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

Oh no, I mean, they look great next to each other. They do look good, they do look good.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:36

Uh Magic, what's your thoughts? I know my answer is also it's like nostalgia. It's just because Penta is my favorite of all time, so I'm always gonna choose Penta. I think this is probably my favorite figure I've ever done, ever. There's a lot of innovation on this one, the mouths and everything, and the unique colorway has so much deco. Like, there's so much into this that I think it really just makes it like a superior figure overall. That being said, though, this one is so nice. There's so many more accessories. The soft good's incredible, it's like a really cool texture on it. The panther, everything we talked about earlier. I keep readering over again, but like this is really close, but my heart wins over, and I'm gonna say penta.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

Yeah, I'm gonna say penta too, I think. But man, that that punk looks great up next to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:21

I'm also going penta. I don't think it's really a shock here, you know. The the penta as good as the punk is, and I think again, I think that that punk is gonna be on a lot of people's like underrated lists or like you know, figures that people really looked over. And it's really good. I think it's gonna be really, really good once we get in hand, but yeah, I'm going pinta here. I think that you know, unfortunately, he ran into the buzzsaw in this in this round. And penta's moving on. But next up is a cool one. We got Brian Pillman versus defining moments, Paul Heyman. Already. Wow. I know where I'm going if you guys want me to go first. Yeah. I'm going Pillman again. I just think that the head sculpt is just ridiculous. I remember like one thing for me, like the way that I remember these figures really standing out, and that's what makes going to these mania events and these the Comic Cons and these events where we get to see the reveals in person. What I know about this, because I have like this insane encyclopedia of the line in my brain. When I can walk up to a booth and like instantly be like wowed in person by something, like standing out, that's like kind of like the telltale sign, like, okay, this one's special in a certain way. It kind of stands out and separates itself. And with the Brian Pillman, I felt that. And so that I'm going with the Pillman because of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:50

It is tricky. They're both great figures, and they both deserve to be, you know, up at the top of this list. I'm gonna go Heyman. I I just I love Heyman, I love you know that representation. ECW Heyman. I think the accessories, everything, I think it's just a great representation of Heyman. Not that Pillman isn't, but I don't know. I'm just leaning a little more towards Heyman, but it's up to you, Magic. Uh-huh. What is your favorite out of these two?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:18

You wouldn't do this to me. I was hoping you're gonna agree with Heyman. I mean, like we can move on. This is really tough because that Pillman head sculpt is so good, and the expression is like so true to him and captured so well. The Paul Heyman for me is like emotional because it's one of the worst uh first figures I worked on, so that's why it's like it's hard for me because like I want to say Paul Heyman, but I'm like, is this just because I it's one of the first things I did here? And I kind of had to prove myself a little bit. So to me, it coming out as good as it did was really vindicating or like fulfilling for me. And the Pillman was also one of the first things I worked on, but the head sculpt was already done when I came in, so I really just worked on this legs and the body and like saw it through to the end and make sure the hair color is right and all that stuff, and make sure the Dij came out good. So it's really tough, but I oh man, for the fact that the head sculpt is so good, I'm gonna put uh Pillman over Ira on this one, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:09

Yeah, as much as I do love that Pillman, man. I I really do. I I it's just a it's just a damn, it's a damn good one, man. Yeah, so that leaves us with our final. We have Brian Pillman versus Pinta. And I'm gonna grab Brian Pillman just so we have the matchup on camera.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:28

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:29

Wow, this has been this has been great going through this list with you, Magic.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:32

Yeah, it's been really fun enjoying this, yeah. And it's like uh yeah, uh it's good seeing your guys' thoughts about what you guys liked about it, like open my eyes up a little bit more to what people appreciate about the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:47

How much further, if we didn't vote Taker out earlier, how much further would Taker have gone in this list, you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:55

He would have made my top 10. I think because I love the American Badass one. That's like he's my that's my taker, that version of him with the motorcycle and everything and the roll.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

You're sleeping on the kid, man. Don't sleep on the kid, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:07

But to me, he's more of like a repaint, you know. So like coming through him. No, that's right. He was a little earlier than when I started watching, also, because I knew X Pac, you know, X Pac was my guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:18

X Pac was my guy. You act like I'm some one, two, three kid connoisseur, because this head sculpt, this head sculpt, like you look at the first, I think it was Elite 40. Was it Elite 40, Elite 41? Was the first one, two, three kid. That one's not even in the same stratosphere as this, you know, and I think that this one, two, three kid is like super underrated special, in my opinion. Like, I think if you lined up the era with him, he would stand out amongst a lot of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:48

Yeah, I believe it. No, that people really like that figure, so I'm glad it's being appreciated. Uh, I did want to bring this up because we didn't really talk about it. Yeah, oh man, yeah. Or sorry, the new ultimate Xbox Monday Night War that was shown at WrestleMania this year. I just want to just highlight some of the the articulation. I like that there. Wow. Got the side to side. Let's see. It's like my favorite thing now. Like, I love doing this.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:17

Hey, I have the goal uh if I haven't said it yet, the Goldberg, the Goldberg is in transit. I should have it within hours of or I the review may be live by the time this podcast goes live, so that'll be something to to look forward to.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:31

What about that uh the crunch forward?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:35

Crunch is really good on him. Yeah, I always like I hold the hip because I don't want it to be cheating, because you could just cheat it by going like this, but this is all you're getting, pure hip, pure torso.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:46

Yeah, do they pop off at the at the waist? You can pop wow. So you wanted to that opens up a lot of you know customization ability, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:57

Yeah, that's uh I'm I'm just so interested in. Oh, you have a Goldberg leg. Look at that. Yeah, that's kind of pretty good. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:11

Leg day every day of his life.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:14

That's good. That's great. Yeah, man. I'm hyped. I can't wait to get that Goldberg.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:20

What about that uh neck hinge? Can you show us that that feature?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:24

Absolutely. This is something I wish we'd put on that WrestleMania 13 Austin just to really sell that. That's true, yeah. You can really get like such a nice upward look there.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

Yeah, love it. It's like uh does it have any side to side ability?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:41

That's one thing you do lose a little bit with this side to side. Like you don't really get too much. You get a little bit of a wiggle, but you don't get the same that you used to. But I hope people will appreciate that you get this much more range of motion this way. So you get more wrestling moves.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

Can you tilt the head a little? Like if he was like looking to the side or something like that. Can do it like that. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:03

Yeah, there's not much to tilt to it. Like it's uh like he oh and the punk's got it too.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:11

Oh no, that's just uh normal head.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:14

So it is limited here up and down, it's only like a nod, but then you do get this. Yeah, but it's like it's so minimal. So I I really I'm hoping people like this new improvement because I do think it adds so much more play value and posability. Because like now you get a headlock, and now he's actually like has his head in his chin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:33

Well, thanks for showing all that up to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:36

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm so hyped to like get this in hand and just you know put it through some different tests and just showcase the differences between you know what we currently have in ultimate form versus what you know we're going to get and everything like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:48

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

Legitimately, like tomorrow afternoon, I should have this within 12 hours. I should have this figure in hand. So looking forward to hearing you. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:59

Is there gonna be consistency within the line? So is every ultimate gonna have that, or are you gonna wait for the reaction of you know the consumer and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:09

Uh I think the plan is going forward to implement that into the newer figures. So, where it makes sense, definitely do it where we can. I think you'll still see some new figures come out with the older torsos. That's just a case of like we had the existing one, or we couldn't afford to do new tooling at the time. This those have like business calls, but the plan is where we can to is implement these going forward, and I'm hoping eventually all of the ultimates will just be this. But it's gonna be it's not gonna be like everything overnight, one you know, it's gonna be a slow drip in, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:40

Great, yeah. Let's go, man. So we have the final. Yeah, we gotta do the finals, but this is groundbreaking. This is groundbreaking stuff. This stuff we've yeah, you know, we've talked about it's been like community notes for years and everything, but yeah, man. Soon enough we shall solve some mysteries and see how it feels in hand, man. But we do have the finals, man. This freaking deco, or this the I think that's really what makes Pillman stand out so nice, is just the pattern on the legs, man. Like, look at the um, like look at the patterns on this, like the patchwork, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:18

That's what dry brushing underrated there. The sculpt on that, those legs are super unique to him. I think he even has like a like a line pattern somewhere, like your pattern at the top. Maybe I'm mistaken.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:30

Yeah, there's like a there's like a tear or something like up here.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:34

Yeah, like there's like really detailed, like the really detailed pants there.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:38

It's really fun and the wash that long patch that goes down like right here, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:43

Like super insane, man. And then the head, I mean, yeah, and then he has the heart foundation shirt or whatever it is, built pillman shirt. I can't remember which one it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:53

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:54

We work on some of these, so many of these figures. Like, I'm getting lost half the time. I'm like, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:58

I mean, these figures are like ancient to you at this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:01

A little bit. Oh, another thing about that one. I just showing it like the silver gems on the back, like those came out really good. Yeah, they did. It's like the same thing we talked about with the China.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:12

Yeah, with that little glitch. Like, it's just uh, I don't know, man. There's just little bitty, little bitty things that just really make it stand out. So and with all that being said, Penta wins.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:27

I was gonna hate to say it, but it's so easy for me. Yeah, Penta, he's gonna win. Yeah, Penta's my pick, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:32

I think uh when you once you sell him, you know, trot trot out in the lineup, it's like okay, well, who's coming in second?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:39

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I hope people put this on their figure of the year list. I feel like it came out so early this year, people are gonna forget about it, but I hope it does make a bunch of no, nobody's forgetting about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:49

Yeah, I promise. That's a brother that's unless you come out with a penta that tops it by the end of the year, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:56

This penta legit, I said it in my review, I said it many places. It's an it's an all-timer. It's up there with the best Mattel toy wrestling figures ever. And I don't know, I'm trying to think like who else would you even put in that conversation? Like, genuinely, who are you, Nate? Or is there anybody that just immediately comes to your brain? This figure comes to my brain immediately, you know, and I know it's new, but it's just like the tattoo work, the unique sculpts, the mask, the paint detail, the interchangeable mouths. It has the signature hands, it's got the custom sculpt or one-of-one sculpt on the kick pads, new knee pads. It's just a cr like a genuinely crazy, crazy figure. And then you even have the waist wrap that doesn't hinder articulation, which is uh and then it's like molded inside with the hip, so it's also it's like really seamless.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

Yeah, it's it's one of one. Did you ever think to do like uh like a fabric or something for that?

SPEAKER_03 1:33:56

You know what? No, I didn't think about that. A fabric would be nice. Maybe try that going forward one day. That'd be kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:02

That'd be cool to like experiment with that. I I guess it could help the articulation with it, you know. Yeah, if you wanted to try something new with it. Yeah, not a bad call. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:11

Well, one thing I just thought about, like if you did cloth goods, if it was like maybe like that stretchy material in the waist, and then you sit it had a hole, and then you could it was an ultimate, and then you'd you know connect the ball joint, and then it's got that loose cloth kind of hanging in the middle between the two pieces that potentially could work. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:32

Yeah, it'd have to be like a thicker PU, like faux leather material, I think, just to help sell it. Yeah, probably so be a little thicker, put a little bendy wire in there. No too. Something to explore. You guys give me some good ideas here. Yeah, no, no residual checks in the mail. Sorry. Oh that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:51

We get to enjoy them, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:54

Yeah, man. That was a lot of fun, though. I had I had so much fun on this episode. It's like I just love to yap about these figures, so you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:02

I'm glad it's all the people that enjoy what we do, honestly, because it's like I used away on these computers all day, and like my back's hurting, and I'm like, I'm getting like a hump in my neck because I'm leaning over what playing on my laptop all day. So it's like it's good to hear from you guys and how much like you appreciate it, and how much detail you see, and all the little things we do to improve them, and how much like you guys recognize that it's really heartwarming, and I really enjoy hearing from you guys. So, thank you. Thank you for having me on, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:26

And we're great to have you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:28

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I I was gonna say, you know, like there's a lot of people that maybe get online and may just like, oh, why are we getting this or why are we getting that? And there's no real basis for it, or there's no kind of response to to something, you know. Like when I have some sort of complaint or an issue or whatever, like I'm always trying to like troubleshoot it myself or give some sort of feedback to it. It's like, it's not just, oh, this sucks. It's more of you know, like consider this, or maybe this, or whatever. And like, not everything's made for me, not everything's made for Nate. Like, there's such a vast market for what Mattel's trying to capture. And so, you know, it's just about meeting, meeting, you know, you're trying to meet that thing halfway and trying to, you know, cater to everyone while also doing, you know, new things. So, you know, it is what it is. But I always, I'm always like super passionate about it, and I always I'm try I'm like never trying to intentionally be negative to be harsh or anything like that in any critique. And I hope I hope that comes across. I hope that anything that I ever say is like met with like a like a passionate sort of uh mood and tone. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:40

Yeah, any any critique that you know people in the space in the community like give. I know some people can be very harsh about it, but I think it all comes from a place of like passion for the figures and they want the best quality. And we've seen the incredible stuff that you guys do. So like people expect like the best quality and things like that. But you know, I hope you guys don't take any, you know, of that to heart and stuff. But you know, we just want to come on here and appreciate like the great work you did, and it was awesome to go through the figures that you had a hand in creating and you know, going through what you think about that, and you know, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:22

Oh, this is great. This is awesome. This is really fun, actually. So thank you guys, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:26

Yeah, but you're welcome, you're welcome back anytime. Anytime we'll have to bring you on and maybe do a round two, or I don't know, maybe we can get you on the Comic-Con recap or something, and there you go, shish or something, and get it going. But we appreciate you having you on. So Pinta is officially the best figure, which comes to no surprise to anyone at all. But yeah. But that is pretty much gonna wrap up My Damn Creators. Is either y'all have anything else you want to say or plug or anything like that? No, I think we're all good here.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:59

Yeah, just follow me on Instagram if you want to find me. It's my name. We'll leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:03

Follow this man. Yeah, we'll leave we'll leave links in the description below for his his customs that he hasn't yet got to got to make, but maybe I want to see that McLovin. Yeah, that mclovin. That's the first one. That's the first one. All right, that's gonna wrap it up, man. Thank you guys so very much for watching. That was a lot of fun. I appreciate Magic. Appreciate you for giving us your time, man. I know that it's getting later over there, midnight for me. Probably was it 10 p.m. for you?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:28

About that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:29

Yeah, about that. Nate, about to eat some dinner, maybe lunch? Some lunch. A late lunch, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:35

But it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:36

I love this. All right, all right, man. Appreciate you guys. Have a blessed one, and we'll see you guys later for the next one.