Season Finale Interview - Connecting the Dots with Dr Sasha Gollish

This conversation explores how coaching practice is deeply shaped by personal experience, reflection, and intentional learning, with Dr. Sasha Gollish emphasizing a person-centered approach that prioritizes developing humans over just athletes. A key theme is that foundational skills like focus underpin confidence and resilience, and coaches should replace assumptions with curiosity by asking athletes about their internal experiences. The discussion also highlights gaps in research and practice, including the need for internal belonging before team belonging, more nuanced understanding of female athlete development, and greater emphasis on joy, contentment, and emotional awareness. Finally, it underscores the importance of coach self-awareness, through vulnerability, self-compassion, and emotional regulation, as essential to building trust and fostering meaningful coach-athlete relationships.

The show notes can be found at https://thecoachdeveloper.com/coaching-research-to-results-podcast-notes/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hey, I'm Beth Barts, the coach developer. This is the longer form edition of Coaching Research to Results, where I bring in a guest to reflect on some of the research topics I've discussed. Today I'm talking with Dr. Sasha Golish, a longtime friend and coaching colleague, and someone I immensely respect in the area of both academics and coaching practice. Her energetic insights are warm and funny and always really make me think. Our conversation is about what connects all of these themes: mental health literacy, emotional regulation, coach emotions, facial expressions, and self-compassion for coaches, and what that looks like in real day-to-day coaching practice. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Hello, I'm Beth Barts, the coach developer, and I'm here with Dr. Sasha Golish today. I'm super excited for our conversation, and I'm gonna let Sasha do a quick introduction of herself.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, here, I think this will like really frame it for the listeners. Hi, I'm Dr. Sasha Golish, and my mother would remind you all that I'm not a real doctor. So I did my PhD in the connection of mathematics to engineering, which was really talking about how math is a language and one that in particular engineers need to speak. Beth and I know each other through the coaching world. So I'm an advanced coaching diploma graduate as well. Um I work in youth sport, primarily now, actually in athletics, but I really miss my alpine skiing routes. I've I could have a time traveler and I could do all of the things. I would still alpine ski coach on weekends. I work as a researcher. Um I'm gonna say primarily now in the Tannenbaum Institute for Science and Sport in the Faculty of Kinesiology at the University of Toronto. I think for that, let's let's keep it short. Oh, I'm a runner. I should say, sorry, I was gonna say maybe you want to wrench in a bit of running. Yeah. I guess I'm actually still a current Team Canada athlete. I had to do my water training this year, which hilariously worked out well for a paper. We can talk about that another day. I've run everything from the 1500 meters to the marathon for at world the world championships level. Um, and I think we met around in 2015 when I won my Pan Am Games Brawl Medal. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Sure did. And I do a few things very well, my dad. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on. Uh, I've got a few questions for you. Yeah, first thing we can maybe look at is this. Athletes who become coaches often coach the way they were coached. Or the exact opposite. Which one's true for you? And has the academic side of your work changed that at all?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Oh, what a great question. I feel so privileged um with the coaches that I've had, particularly in middle distance um and long distance running. Actually, even in alpine skiing when I was a kid, it was always person-centered first. And I say that as person-centered, not athlete-centered. They knew that if I create, they created a great human in me, they'd create a great athlete. There was nothing they could do to make me fall more in love with the sport. So I guess the other background is I really wanted to be a World Cup Alpine ski racer and was born into a marathon body. So um spent a lot of time in alpine ski racing and like for a love for it, and I also have this like great love for running. It's a little more awkward to go on like a family run because like everybody's at a different pace, which makes alpine skiing. But there's there's lessons in that. Um, as a coach, it's really interesting. So when I started coaching, I was an assistant coach, like as you should be. And I think one of the greatest lessons I learned was when that head coach I was working with went was away for a week and I was left with the athletes and I started to mimic their behavior. And I just remember one of the athletes saying to me, like, well, why are you coaching like that? Like, why, why would you do that? Like, but you're not him. And I was like, What do you mean? They're like, Why do you think that you need to be a dictator and tell us what to do when we have a great relationship? I was like, but that's what he does. And they're like, but we don't like him. I was like, okay, you make a great point. Um and then I and I asked, like, may I have a reset? And I said, thank you for the feedback. And so, you know, I sort of had this dictator style coaching style when I was like very, very early in alpine skiing. So like 2000, like, oh gosh, a long time ago. And but had the rapport with athletes, and like now that I say this out loud, like, what a privilege, had the rapport, the trust and the respect for them to call me on it. So um I then just grew into the coach that the coaches that coached me and running uh had a very similar coaching style. I just wanted to create great humans.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Amazing. I love that. Uh certainly we see lots of that in the academic pieces. Was there a piece of academic work that maybe backed that up as you were making that decision?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Well, I wanted to bring coaching principles to the P to the mathematics classroom. So I really wanted to bring uh confidence, motivation, and engagement into the mathematics classroom. And, you know, I was told, well, do we have a problem? Which I think is really interesting. I think, I think one of the reflections I have now, like where I'm situated, is that we often we want athletes to be resilient and we think resilience has to come first. Um, we don't talk enough about focus. I think you first need to be focused. You have to be focused to understand where you have confidence in what you're doing. Mistakes are gonna happen. You know, I think about volleyball is a great example. I had, you know, such a fun conversation at um the Empower Hearst Sports Summit with some volleyball players. Like, they're like, we make mistakes all the time. Like you have to be resilient and reset.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

And they said, but we've we practice that through focus where we gain confidence in what we're doing so that when we we make a mistake, we know we can have the personal reflection of like, well, what happened in making that mistake so that they can be resilient to focus again to get back into the game. And I was like, what a beautiful reflection from you know, people who are playing a game where you are up against resilience all the time.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Definitely. I think that team sport piece is fascinating, right? It's uh it teaches resiliency in a bit of a different way than perhaps some of those engine sports that uh that you've you've excelled at. So definitely a different.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

And but it's the focus piece for me too, right? Like we talked about this, Beth. Like, I I think in coaching a little bit, we've lost our way of like talking about focus when like it's the most important thing. And I think it's because it's simple and boring and like isn't flashy on social media and on the internet. But it's also a skill that you can apply anywhere. So like I didn't, I loved math. I am not the norm. A lot of students struggle with math. But if you can take that skill of being focused in sport where you love something, you can transfer that to a life skill, like this idea of focus. And I think we've kind of lost our way with that and then demand co-confidence and we demand resilience. So it's like, hold up, let's go back. Let's just figure out how to teach you how to focus.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah, let's tease it out kind of gradually rather than feeling like it has to be a grandiose you have it or you don't kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

And everybody can develop focus. And I really don't want coaches to think, oh, I'm just gonna like pull the Jonathan Haidt research and say I'm gonna blame phones and social media, and that's why athletes can't focus. Maybe that's true, but you've got this awesome opportunity when they don't have a phone in their hand and they're not scrolling to help them work on focus to actually figure out what that means. And what focus means, like, okay, I am a high energy person. There's everybody has got that my idea of focus most of the time is pretty high energy, but that's not everybody. And and even in individual sports, like helping people see like what focus is for everybody, so you find a shared understanding of it so you can work together as a team.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

That's a really good segue into one of the questions I want to ask. So I'm I'm gonna go there. You're rarer in that you read the primary literature and your coach. Not everybody does that.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

What's Who wants to read a methodology?

SPEAKER_02 7:40

I know. Sasha's like, can you tell me more about the methodologies of the papers that you did? I was like, nobody wants to know about that, Sasha. Except for the academics. I do. Fair. Okay. So what's the most significant thing you've found in research that most coaches in your sport feel free to talk about alpine or long distance running that they don't know about and probably should.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

I mean, then we could be here for days to talk about that. I actually think I want to answer this in a very abstract way to say it's really overwhelming. Brilliant. Um, I think if you're not well versed in academic speak, that trying to read this can be really challenging. And even, you know, notebook LM and AI, it's great. It's not quite there yet. And I think the the biggest question we need to be asking ourselves as coaches, and the, you know, when I was an athlete, the biggest question I was trying to ask myself is, okay, well, what are my strengths? And how do I weaponize those? And so where can I draw upon that in in in the literature and then in the you know more popular science to learn from it? And then in that, okay, well, first I'm gonna start by weaponizing my strengths. So I'm gonna think about like what that might be. And then, you know, where are these opportunities, these gaps that I can start? But always starting from weaponizing strengths. So I think it's I think it's gonna be very situational, which is sorry, not really answering your question. But I think if I reflect upon my academic career right now, that's the most important thing I can say. I'm finding it really challenging in academia right now because people are like, this is the way and this is the right way. And I was like, in that context for those people in that situation. And so that then makes it really overwhelming for somebody who's never entered into this space to think about it. So let's go back to this dynamics of of volleyball, right? So maybe it's a sense of belonging. Okay, I almost texted you this yesterday. I don't think there's any research on it. One of the things that I think is missing in the research, and also like, hello, I've sort of sort sorted out one of my life problems, is I think before you can find belonging on a team, you have to find belonging in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

So I am about to go on a deep dive in research about how I, as I'm moving through this transition of retiring from being an athlete, I have struggled to find internal belonging because all I desperately want to be, and it's not wanted, I'm still not in the like past tense yet, working through it, is to be a high performance long distance runner. That's where I find my inner sense of belonging. So if you have somebody on a team, and back to this volleyball example, that is struggling to see themselves as a volleyball player, it might be really challenging for them to find a sense of belonging on that team. So where you might want to start is with motivational questioning so that you can figure out how to talk to that person in a way that brings out whatever their strengths are. And then you can work together to see if that person wants to stay in volleyball. And I think this is the other most important thing that we can talk to coaches about. It's okay for an athlete to want to leave a sport and do something else.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yes, absolutely. You don't own the athlete. It's not your athlete, it's the athletes, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Oh my gosh, yeah. Right? The and your, my, the and my, the athletes. This I am coaching this team. I'm not coaching my team. I am coaching this team. That was a great lesson, I think. I learned in 2009 from Jason Manning while I was coaching at Alpine at Alpine Ski Club. In Alpine Ski Racing. Creative names.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yeah, I know that's uh that's a great takeaway. That's a big one. I I like that lesson and and thinking about the contextual or the situational application of things. The more I'm learning about coaching and coach developing, the more I realize, man, it's really gray. And and not every situation, even if the symbols are the situation seems similar, the answer isn't always the same one. So uh it's it it's really worth looking at uh a different um different ways to get to the same, maybe uh uh happy answer at the end.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And okay, we would be remiss to not talk about AI here, right? And generative AI, right? I think it's really important. I think there's a time and place for it. I think you can't rely on it for an answer that you're looking for. I think you can use it as a sounding board if you bound it pretty well. It's gonna hallucinate.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

So please don't ask it to give you specific research and we're not gonna go like coaches asking a question to AI looking for a solution.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Okay. Yeah, right. Like, and or something very specific in the research, right? Like, you know, talk to me about the biomechanics of the foot movement when somebody's jumping to serve a volleyball, right? I'm not sure that it's in a place yet where it's not gonna hallucinate. We'll get there. We're not there. But I think it's also really important for that self-reflection piece and that actual knowledge piece that you learn to work with AI, but that you don't learn to rely on it. Also, because we know historically, you know, sports science really has excluded women and anybody of, you know, racial minorities, socioeconomic minorities, like you're only going to get a very specific small answer from AI, and it's a start, but it it's probably not your end.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Right. We need to recognize the stereotypes that the AI has been trained on in the first place. Mm-hmm. Is there a piece of research you've read that described your own experience as a coach so precisely it was almost uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

No, but there was a piece of research by Brenne Brown that described my athlete experience so precisely I had to sit down on the sidewalk and baw my eyes out. Whoa. So this is the story I'm telling myself. And I think we do. This is right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

I I think I had a very similar reaction.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

This is the story I'm telling myself. And as coaches, I think it's actually really important. This is the story I'm telling myself about the team that I'm working with. Well, what's the story? What's the fairy tale? And what's the reality? And so I I think as we have those check-ins, and then okay, so okay, so build on that. Sorry, let me go back and say, how do you also have the athletes do that? So, how do you be really vulnerable as a coach to say, here's what I'm seeing? And you don't have to be like, here's the story I'm telling myself about what I'm seeing on the field to play today. You don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

It's not quite that formal now, is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

But you it is in my head. Um, here's what I'm seeing on the field, right? So I'm gonna use a rugby example here. Here's what I'm seeing on the field as to how you're playing. What is it that you're seeing and you're feeling? And then, you know, I think one of the best things that we can do as coaches, when I was in Alpine ski racing, I had young kids, and so you know, they would go and what did you learn today? It's nothing and stuff. So how do you ask those reflection questions? And so, you know, hey, just as a reminder, like, and basically all I did was here, we worked on keeping our hands up this morning. It's basically all you need to do when they're seven years old. Hands are in their pockets. But what you can leave them with is, you know, what was the story that you were telling yourself on the field of play today, right? What how would you change that story? Is there anything that you might want to share with me and ask them not to respond immediately, right? Like, hey, I want you to take 24 hours, bring this back to me at the next practice. Don't make it a demand that they have to do it, but that you start to weave the thread between player and team and coach. So it really helps with communication, but really just helps you authentically connect with people.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

I love that. I uh two uh thoughts kind of came to me just as you were speaking. One was uh a coach I used to work with. Um, he had the idea of just no by asking. Don't just make up stories as a coach for what's happening with an athlete. Just ask. Right? It was that that easy. He actually had a form called no by asking, and it was brilliant. Uh so simple, but so accurate, which was which was a big one. And now will I remember the second piece?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

So while you're thinking about that, also the assumptions that we make when somebody's late for practice. Particularly young kids. And so if you're a coach and you're coaching young kids, historically we've all done it. We often punish kids for being late. What if being late is completely out of their control? So it's like punishment on punishment, where like they already feel bad that they're late. So how do you like the no the no bot, like how do you ask that? Hey, I just wanted to check in with you. I've noticed that you're late. Is there anything you want to share with me? And if they say no, right, which can happen. What can you tell me about it? Yeah. Well, but it also might be a sign that something bigger is going on and they're not ready to talk about it. And so giving them time and space and like continuing to follow that along, because the story you're telling yourself is probably that athlete is late because they're lazy and they don't care. We we've all done it. Sure. All been there.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah. It's usually not the case. 100%. 100%. Totally agree. And I've certainly had those conversations with coaches. I did remember the other piece, uh, which was not just the story. Uh, so you were mentioning the idea of like leaving the field and replaying the story that you're telling yourself. I think it's also worth asking athletes when they're leaving the field to play, particularly in a team sport, what video are they replaying in their head? Oh, yeah. Because we know that anything you're thinking in your head feels like it's a repetition in your body. So that might be even more important than just the story that you're telling yourself because it becomes part of the story because visual is so, so strong for athletes and coaches and anyone else. Great point. Thanks. Is there research that you've seen that genuinely that you don't know how to apply? Something that's intellectually compelling but hasn't yet become uh a coaching behavior for you.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

I don't know. I mean, there's just so much out there to start with.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

It's so hard to keep on top of everything.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Oh, it's actually I'd say it's impossible. Like of the things, like just with the like, you know, proliferation of the peer-reviewed process and how easy it is now to publish. And it's not easy, but it's much easier than it was. I'm really wrestling with Nicole LeBois' social, socioecological model right now. And I think it's, and so it's a much bigger, it's like not contextual, but it's like bigger. But I but I think that pieces it exactly is that, you know, it asks you to focus like at the intrapersonal level. So the participant, the the athlete that you have, the coaching relationship, the function within the organization and the function within the system. And with the proliferation of actual research out there, it's really hard to actually draw that thread between the whole system, right? And so ensuring that you're centering the athlete in the decisions that you're making, centering diversity, equity, access, and inclusion in those decisions across that whole system. That's something I've really been wrestling with lately. And how you would, I'm not asking everybody to go read um the paper. Let me just be very clear.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

That's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

But wrestling with how do you make that easier for people to communicate cross-level in a way that that builds up, not tears down the system.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Can you expand on that a little bit? I can see your hands moving, but I know that people won't be able to see that on the podcast. And I'm curious uh how you might explain that in terms of the hierarchy or the system itself.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

So if we take a whole bunch of concentric circles and you'd put the athlete in the smaller center circle, right? The athlete of the participant, right? Depending on how where you at what level you coach on the playground to podium pathway. And then that next sort of layer, uh, I'm an onion. Let's just use some Shrek.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

That next layer of the onion, that next layer of the of the circle is those intra interpersonal sorry relationships. So it could be teammate to teammate, it could be teammate to coach, it could be participant to coach, um, participant to other actors that might be on the field of play. So that might be anyone in the, you know, chiropractic physio-massage integrated support team there, um, a mental performance coach. Like what are the conversations that are happening there?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

The third layer of this concentric circle onion model is the actual organization itself. And so the situation of the team or club that you play within. And so, you know, as a University of Toronto, yes, I work there, but I ran there forever, right? I work, you know, it's I'm part of the organizational structure of the University of Toronto. And then the system structure, it's kind of two levels. So there'd be both the athletics or track and field, you know, sort of outer layer for me. But that also sits within the greater Canadian sports system or just general sports, and then probably gets bigger. So you have the world one too.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

But let's keep it small enough to Canadian. So you have these concentric circles with the athlete at the middle and the system on the outside.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Love that. I think uh it comes a little more clearly that way in terms of all the influences that are happening on an athlete and on a coach uh that we don't always recognize. And I think as coaches, perhaps we get a little bit caught up in the system a little bit and don't realize um that we actually might have an opportunity to help change what that system looks like and feels like for ourselves and for athletes as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

And how intimidating that can feel, right? So you feel like one voice in a sea of a lot of voices. I think particularly for women, where we are the minority still and a majority of the sports, it can be really intimidating. Yeah if you layer on any other intersecting identities. So racialized people, people of a diversity of ethnicities, you know, people with disabilities, people of di differing socioeconomic classes, people of different genders, it can feel feel even more overwhelming to want to speak up in that system. And you can feel like a very, very, very small person in that in that big place. Um The Fault in Our Stars, do you remember that book? I do by Nicholas Sparks. At the back of the book, right? The eulogy, which like leaves you as a buttering, melting totally blubbering, yes. Yeah. What do you do? You make positive change in the space that you're in, and those micro changes are the things that change the world. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah. And we don't have to change massive pieces to to make such a difference, right? Um, and as coaches, it feels like we we've been afforded giant opportunities to change, and all we need to do is just change those little bits. What do you know now that you couldn't have told yourself when you were competing? And why couldn't you have heard it then?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

I didn't train hard enough. Oh, Sasha. Ouch. No. No, hear me out. I say this in the most positive way. I say this in a way that, like, it's actually really gonna let me have closure. Okay. Uh, again, obsessed with Al Pies King, maybe obsessed with Lindsay Vaughn, Lindsay Kildow. I have been following her career since 2001 when she was Lindsay Kildow. I read her book, I've read um Jesse Diggins' book, I've read Castor Semenya's book, I've read a Des Linden's book. I think the fact that I could pursue my PhD alongside being a high performance athlete and finish it in four years.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It's incredible, but it all I so the whole point, I think what I've learned is we in general treat female athletes like they're more fragile. I don't think I needed to run anymore by any means. I was running 130 to 160 kilometer weeks as a middle distance runner. But I think there were other things that I could have spent my time doing to make myself a more rigorous, resilient athlete, a little bit more plyometrics, a little bit, a lot more, not a little bit, a lot more yoga and flexibility and just like joint, joint movement, joint, joint rotation, being a little bit more aware of your body, doing a lot more work in the gym. This is that fragility piece that like I still think we have a lot to learn. Um, there's some really great research coming out of, I think it's Sweden. I'm gonna blank on his name right now. I will find it for your show notes. He is looking at how we train females and males in the pre-puberty and puberty stage. Oh, okay. And what he's finding is that girls, so female, female-bodied people, probably need to be in the gym more than boys do because of the way our bodies develop. And so if we think about that, and then we think about that across the lifespan and what we're now seeing in perimenopause and menopause research as well, I needed to spend, I needed to be in the gym every day. It's not that I needed to lift so heavy that I was like physically destroyed, right? But I could have been doing more in the plyometric circuit and like let's call it like lightweight movement on a daily basis. I think Femme Cabol, who just switched from the 400 hurdles to the 800, watch out world, um, seeing what she does as well in training, I just like, I didn't train hard enough, but I didn't know any better. Right. I don't think my coaches did it intentionally with any uh sense of harm. I don't think they knew any better. I still don't know that the coaching research knows any better, but I didn't train hard enough.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Okay. That's uh that's a pretty golden and important takeaway. I mean, that's uh that's massive. Yeah, I wonder what training will look like in uh, you know, 10 or 15 years, maybe once that research has been completed.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Hopefully more Nordic skiing, moschemo, like getting athletes to do a more like inclusive set of sports. Your heart and lungs don't know what you're doing. They actually, in fact, they don't really care. They're not like playing up in order cross-country skiing. So they're like, we're beating. Great, we're breathing. Um but more cross-functionality between sports. I think it will help you build different strength in a different way. And also running, I mean, the running example is very specific, but you I think you can only run a certain number of kilometers before like you get into that injury state. But you can bike, you can cross-country ski, you can row, you can there's a whole host of things that you can do to continue to build that aerobic capacity that you just have to have. And it's got to be massive to be really good.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Sure, sure. I I mean, maybe I could have been a runner had I actually discovered, you know, cross-country skiing on roller skis before my late 40s. That would have been a little bit different. The podcast covers 15-minute episodes, one paper at a time. What's the paper you'd most want on the show that hasn't been covered yet?

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Oh gosh, you really needed to give me time to prepare for this one.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Oh pause as long as you want. Google, check your Zotero.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Well, here's a qu I'd I'd love to put a question back to you in which domain, right? Like, I think there's really interesting things that we could explore with mental performance, with physiology, with psychosocial. Um, I think there's really interesting things we could cover in sport culture, in the ecosystem. So, like, I think there's probably one in each of those. Um, and maybe this is actually just like a question we put back to the listeners. Like, what do you like which domains do you want us to play in and talk about?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Love that. Love that. I'm gonna narrow it a tiny bit. Okay. So I know you uh have championed Sawyer Nicholson quite a bit uh as a runner. And if you were her coach, I'm sure you already have a great relationship with her coach. If you were her coach, what would you want her coach to know in order to be able to coach Sawyer better?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

So so timely. I watched the World Athletics um International Women's Day celebration webinar today. Nice. Paula Radcliffe spoke.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Oh, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Oh, she is just, oh my gosh, like what an athlete. And she talked about her love of the sport. And what I would say to a coach is how do you foster that love? And what are the little things that you notice so that when someone's having a bad day or a tough day or just like lost in their head to bring them back to that love?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

So basically, we need some more research and love and sport.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

I think no, I think there's what we need more research in is enjoyment and contentment. I think there's this idea of standing beside love. And I can't remember the researchers who talked about it. It was on a podcast, probably with Maya Shanker. She does a lot of great work. Um, she wrote a book called The Other Side of Change. Can't wait to read that. A little nervous to read it. But I think we need to talk about and separate happiness from enjoyment and joy and contentment. Right. Um, I think game plan's done a lot of great work. Heather Wheeler is a leader in this space talking about the difference in those things. I the other thing I would say in that, Beth, is I think there's a little bit of, and I think we're getting a bit of a correction here of this idea that you have to be flourishing or thriving at every practice. I think that's normal for about 10 to 15% of the practices. Between 80 and 90% of the time, you kind of just have to be there content, committed, showing up, doing it. And I think we've like sensationalized this like flourishing and thriving. And then what we never talk about, and we need to do a better talk job about talking about this, is and this comes back to the part about Sawyer is there are gonna be bad days. Sure. Normal. Yeah. How do we normalize that again? To be like, hey, Sawyer, today was a tough day and not to help to for them to suppress their feelings, right? To really like self-regulate and to understand that that tough days happen and to to again normalize that, but to remind them, like, they're not all gonna be like this. And let's keep an eye on what's happening. And if more days like this are happening than we think should be normal, let's have a conversation about why that might be happening. There is no single answer as to why that might be happening across the kind of bio-psychosocial spectrum of thinking about that. But to normalize, bad days happen. Contentment is where we're gonna be normally. Flourishing and thriving is really like the exception, not the norm.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

I love that. There's some magic there. There's not a lot of acknowledgement of the fact that sometimes you just have to put in a solid shift or a solid workout, even when it's hard, or even when you really don't want to. And those are probably the days that really matter the most. It's a great takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Well, well, and especially think about it like I think about it in a race. Like you're not gonna show up to every race and be like, oh, titra. Yeah, you can't. Competition. Like it's not gonna happen. So, how do you actually then show up and be like, okay, and I can't remember who said this about like winning an Olympic medal. If you like to win, get on that podium, whatever. Like you basically have to be performing at like the lower end of your average, right? Like you have to expect, like to win, you gotta be at the lower end of your average. Like, it's pretty unlikely that you're gonna have an out-of-shoes day on an Olympic day.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

On a very specific day once in four years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Exactly. I think uh Stephen Redgrave mentioned something like that in his autobiography. Uh, especially, you know, rowers putting in crazy long hours on water in terrible conditions. And I mean, he was uh a serial winner over many, many uh races and many Olympics. So same idea. He'd even if if it was a crappy day, he'd still just show up and put in the work.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

And how do we normalize that for people, right? And that, like, yeah, it's it's part of it. And uh, not only is it like a big part of it, but then how do you find that joy and contentment in it? Right. So one of my reflections is I loved the big hard workouts, and it was like the satisfaction of having done something really hard. Some of them went really well, some of them went okay. On occasion, it went horribly quick. But it was, but it was about what was the outcome about and what was like, what was the goal? It was the satisfaction of trying to do something really hard. And so also, how do you shift what the motivation is of why that athlete is doing it? I think I would also say to Sawyer's coach of how do you, and I, you know, have these conversations with her, how do you have the conversation that it's not just about the time, but what you did in that moment? Like, where did you slip up and where did you like come back? You know, what would you do differently? Like, I loved showing up to races to see like what I could get out of myself that day. It wasn't necessarily about a time, but like, how did you perform at your best today? Like, how do we shift that conversation about the outcome, not losing the fact that like, yes, it's kind of like school, like it's gonna be about grades, it's also gonna be about metals, like both can exist.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yes, it's an and both, not an either or.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yes. Yeah. This is why I love you. 100%. Aww, thanks, Sasha. We speak the same words.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

It's an and conversation. It's never an or conversation. Okay, maybe when it comes to chocolate, because otherwise I'd eat all the chocolate bars every night. So it's definitely an or conversation.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Fair, fair.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Okay. Which of the papers do you want to talk about? Smiling. I want to talk about smiling because I think you can relate it to all the papers.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Okay. Give me your impressions.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I think smiling is the most underrated thing that we can do as human beings. So I am obsessed also with Elliot Kipchogi. He really is a good runner. Yeah. Um, he talked about in the marathon when things get challenging. And if you've never run a marathon, just think about being so uncomfortable and still having about 40 minutes of running left.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

And you're like, I I mean, give me three minutes in and I'm feeling that way.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Right. So smile. So Elliot Kipchogi talked about smiling and how, you know, there is research that talks about the chemical reaction that you get when you smile and how like your whole body relaxes. I think we can think about that in coaching, right? Like, what's your regulation? And and genuinely smiling, right? You can be super frustrated with what's going on on the field. Just smile about something else. Don't, it doesn't have to have anything to do with that. I was also thinking about the emotional self-regulation when that person on the field or the court makes a mistake and teaching them to smile so that they can have the their own regul self-regulation in that, but also um feeling seen. The best thing you could do is have them look at you and then give them a genuine smile. It does two things. It makes them feel seen. And in those moments when we make mistakes, that is the most important thing we can do some for somebody is let them know they feel seen. And then two, give them that smile. And it's not to say everything's gonna be okay, but it's that's the smile that says, I care about you, not as an athlete. I care about you first and foremost as a person. Then all of a sudden you're like, okay, well, now I can try again to perform as an athlete.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Yeah, I care that you're okay. And I know that you can try this again and do even better.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah. Or not, or not do better, right? Like there's also those days where like it's just not gonna happen. And you can just see the person as a person and not a function of their performance.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. See the human regardless of the outcome. Okay. So along those lines then, uh, the research is suggesting that athletes are using the coach's face as a performance signal, not just picking up a feeling, but making inferences about how they're doing, which maybe goes back a little bit to our telling ourselves a story comment. Totally. Does knowing that change how you approach post-performance feedback?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Also, it has also changed how I show up. So I think one of the most important things we can do as coaches is recognize that we're also human beings. Today is March 11th when we're recording. Fourteen years ago on March 10th, I was facilitating a ski course and one of my friends died. And I just looked at the group and I said, I just need to go up the chair by myself. I'll talk to you at the top. And I told them and I said, I'm not gonna be the best version of myself today. No kidding. I said, I also need whoever in this group is friends with this person as well. Whatever you need, I'm here. And I don't think we show athletes that vulnerability enough to say, I'm having a bad day, which cues them, don't look at my face. My face is not about me. He's not gonna tell you anything you want to see. My face is about me. Yes, yes, right. Like, because I would basically be talking to them with like tears streaming down my face, but they could disconnect. I wasn't crying because they did something. I was just genuinely really sad. And I think we can have that in our before we start anything. When it comes to debrief, I think the Adam Grant, like, are you ready to have this feedback? Right. Like, I think we have to have that conversation. I think as coaches, if you're having a bad day, if like whatever happens, you're like, I'm not ready to actually give this feedback in a way that's meaningful, I think you can also say that, right? Like, I think it goes both ways. And so I think facial expressions, like, listen, like caveman, like that's how we learn to survive, right? Like this person's going to kill me. I can see it on their face. I must run.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yes.

unknown 36:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

But how do you, in times when your facial reactions are not going to mirror how you're actually feeling, you have to be able to have that conversation with the athletes.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Wow. Yeah, that's uh that's extraordinary, Sasha. And thank you for sharing. Not an easy, not an easy conversation, but an incredible illustration of how we sometimes show up, right? I mean, we don't get to show up as coaches every day as our best selves, and we can't expect that from our athletes either. No. The coach who most needs self-compassion is exactly the coach least likely to walk through the door of a workshop on it. Is there a version of this that can reach that person, or does it have to arrive through a different door?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Ooh, tough question, but great question. I think self-compassion might be one of the most misunderstood things. I think it kind of comes back to like people see it as pity and sympathy and all those like negative things when it's actually just having empathy for yourself. And actually, self-compassion is more importantly the entryway into self-reflection. So if we think about critical thinking and we think about problem solving, you can actually only do that by like reflecting within yourself. But first you have the self-compassion, have to have the self-compassion to say there is something going on here that I may have caused, that's something I set up that has happened. And so I think because it's such a misunderstood concept, people think it's about, I'm giggling at myself, like, oh, I just have to be nice and kind to myself all the time. It's actually self-compassion is holding yourself accountable. It's actually holding yourself to the highest standard. And so, oh my God, I might burst out laughing right now. I don't think I can hold this together. I think about some of those coaches, maybe some of them that you and I have seen together over the years who say they hold themselves to a high standard. And I would argue that the bar is incredibly low. And so I think actually it's like, how do you have a conversation about shared understanding with these individuals to say, hey, I think we both want the same thing here. We're both really trying to get to a high standard. To do that, you have to have critical thinking and problem-solving skills to be able to reflect. The actual, the only way to do that is to be self-compassionate because self-compassion is the key to being able to actually have self-awareness.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

And self-awareness is something that can be hugely lacking, especially when as coaches, we all have a little bit of ego. And sometimes that comes out a little bit bigger than it probably should.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

It's also not a skill we teach. So I think I talked, I talked to you about this. I I've been going to yoga again. I am discovering my inner inflexibility. But yoga is such a like gateway into having a conversation with your body, right? Like, how is my left toe moving? How is my big toe moving? How is my ear? Like, and I'm not being facetious. Like, I think it's really important to actually have that self-awareness as an athlete. The only way that you can do that is with yoga. But then it trains you to let go of your thoughts and think about breathing. And so I was thinking about that in terms of coaching. And I think it's really important in coaching that you develop this self-awareness. And I think the only way to really be able to do that is I probably should abstract up and say, like meditation andor mindfulness, which really is what a yoga practice is. But it's about having that ability to move through space to physically, cognitively, metacognitively understand how you're taking up that space, which really is self-compassion and self-reflection.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

So we might be able to move coaches a little bit if we encourage them to do something might not be related to coaching specifically, but just encourages them to think about things a little bit differently in their life.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

And to speak whatever language they're speaking. So if it's about high standards, if it's about helping athletes to be the best version of themselves, right? It's like, well, if you want an athlete to train a certain way, like don't you need to be role modeling that behavior so that they'll do that? I think it's thinking and then using language that they're using, and then effectively like I'm gonna trick you into doing this. But, you know, there's tons of research on that of like when you speak somebody's language, you know, and you find a shared place of understanding, you're much more likely to help them. Adam Grant, you know, you'll win your argument.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Love Adam Grant and Brene Brown. There's just been so many people you've mentioned who've been just incredible thinkers and writers and people who've really influenced both of us and many others in coaching, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

And if you're uncomfortable with self-compassion, talk, start with their books, right? Like Adam Grant is a highly recognized, world-renowned researcher. If you got to the crux of it, a lot of his work is rooted in self-compassion, right? But start somewhere that makes you comfortable. And then, you know, be it's not actually even open-minded. It's actually just like thinking differently, Adam Grant, once again, about stuff you probably already do. And it's just gonna actually raise your bar of what it is to be a great coach.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Absolutely. I have a coach right now working through uh Atlas of the Heart from Brene Brown and just sort of dipping and diving in the book when uh she she's thinking about different parts of her coaching practice and how she shows up.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

I'm opening an app because there's another one I want to give you called How We Feel. How we I think you get it. How we feel it's so good. But it's I don't use it on a daily basis, but when I can't name an emotion, I'm like go here, right? Like it's front and center on my computer on my phone. Again, it's about how do we name our emotions in a better way? Like inside out the movie is like we basically have like there's like five primal, and most people can only name across those, which is why Brene Brown wrote the book. And I fall into the trap myself as well. Like I'm hungry, tired, overworked, whatever. I'm basically I'm never really actually tired. I sleep very well, but I'm always hungry. Right. And so then how do I do a check-in when I'm like, oh my God, I'm so angry? I'm like, I'm not actually angry. I'm feeling this.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

You're more hangry than anything, like any good distance athlete. All the food, all of the time. Exactly. Uh, someone who's mentored coaches, do you see a generational shift in how coaches relate to their own inner critic? Or is the armor largely the same across generations?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Drop the armor. Brene Brown, let's just like come back to our favorite person. Um, here's an interesting hot take. I think, unfortunately, the future of sport in Canada Commission report almost forced coaches to pick their armor back up. There's a the the final report comes out, but there's a large gaping hole in it in the protection of coaches. So it talks about sport systems and sport organizations, and it talks about athletes. And it largely in the preliminary report didn't talk about coaches. And so I think you're seeing a lifting of the armor again, but but in a way, in an evidenced-informed way. And like, I'd be afraid too. Um, it's all it was also like 396 pages. Who needs to read 396 pages? Worse than worse than an academic paper.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

We definitely need an executive summary.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

You need more than like you couldn't even do that with the 71 recommendations that were in it. But I think um coaches are wearing armor, and I think it's because they are legitimately afraid about what's been happening. If we think about the accusations in maltreatment, I think there have been some horrible, awful, egregious cases. And then I think we've misinterpreted what some of those other things are. Grooming, when grooming exists, it is insidious and awful and disgusting and the most horrible thing in the world. But neglect, you know, I think about some para athlete. That I work with, their definition of neglect would be very different than maybe what we've seen in some media. And I would argue in some media that maybe that's not neglect. And so I can see why coaches are pulling the shield back up. I think we'll see a shift, you know, when we I think the coaching world, I think it needs some rapport, um, conversations built into it. I think part of the challenge with our coaching, and I'm this is why you exist, and this is all the great thing that you're doing, is you know, if you think about a T model and like all these things at the top, you gotta be able to talk, you gotta be able to communicate, you gotta be able to like lead, you gotta be able to mentor, you've got to be able to motivate, right? Like there's all these like key things that we have to do in coaching. And I'd say they're largely lacking from the coach education. Coaches are generally underpaid or volunteers. Indeed. Coaches often have another job and or they have other obligations, including families. I'm thinking both of our pets, it's a lot of work. But like you have other obligations. When are you gonna find the time to do this when there is this overemphasis on the technical and tactical skills that we're trying to teach people? So I get why the armors come back up. I think the best thing that we can do is help people acquire those skills. Yes. And to really think about it in a coaching model, right? Like uh initiation, acquisition, consolidation, refinement, right? Like really be thoughtful and careful and nuanced to recognize that for some people, they're in the initiation phase of this and to not criticize them for that. Right. There's a system level problem that has happened in terms of the skills that we over-emphasize in our Canadian sports system. And how do we bring people in to be like, I'm, I want I'm here to help you? And these are some of the skills that we need to do and make them really foundational. And I think then we'll see that shield start to let's call it melt away. It's you know, we got spring here, let's call it melt away. Yeah, I don't think we're just gonna see people shed it, but I love that uh analogy of melting uh and it just becoming And I think well think you have to have it on your back because I think at times you gotta whip it around when somebody sends a dagger at you so that you don't get shot in the chest.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah, yeah. Keep the protective armor for when necessary, but also have it down so that you can be vulnerable or humble when you need to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah. And maybe think about dropping your quiver of arrows. Maybe that's like the start that it is like stop launching your arrows of negativity into space, right? Like, I understand that you need to carry your shield for a little bit longer with the way our sports system is shifting. You know, whip it back on when you need it, but you know, every so often just drop it down for a little bit, shift it to your back, like whatever your metaphor is. But um try coaching without that armor on and see what that's like.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Right. Which is incredibly hard when coaches feel like they've got so many different aspects to learn about and to do really well and to answer to with athletes, parents, administration, and that kind of thing as well.

unknown 46:58

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Well, and leave this with parents and caregivers. For the most part, that coach standing on the field in the pouring rain in that cold hockey rink is there because they care about your kid. And they want your kid to be really good at their sport. And if you're really lucky, they want them to be a really good person. And I think if we gift that to the coach as a parent or caregiver before we judge them, right? I think if we sh go from uh uh thinking of abundance that this person really cares about my kid, as opposed to a thinking of scarcity that there's something bad gonna happen. I think it's really gonna cause some some shifts. There's gonna be bad actors, but imagine a system in the future where we gift people that we trust and respect them. Those bad actors go away because they get called out immediately. And they're it's like you're not you're no longer welcome here. And so that sense of belonging for them, they're not belonging anymore. They're out the door and nobody is hiring them ever again.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Indeed. Indeed. Best advice I ever got was to uh let other people love my kids and also let me love their kids. Same idea. Thanks, Sasha. Thanks, Beth. My guest today was Dr. Sasha Gauish. She's an academic, high-performance athlete, and alpine an athletics coach.

unknown 48:21

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Gauish, or just Sasha as she prefers, also has her own podcast called Strong Girls Talk with Molly Herford. I'd like to thank her for coming and sharing all of her insights. We covered a lot of ground, and I hope you are able to take away some pieces for you to apply to your own coaching practice. I'm Beth Barts, the Coach Developer. You'll find show notes and the full library of episodes at www.thecoachdeveloper.com. If any idea from today lands for you, like, subscribe, and share it with another coach this week. That's how research actually travels. See you next time. This podcast was produced by Ann Reifenstein at RECER services. Original music created and recorded by Sean Patterson at Vinyl Safari Studio.