SPEAKER_02

Anybody who's listening that wrestles with uh anxiety or ambition or a sense of busyness or hurry.

SPEAKER_01

I I really wondered if that was the last time I was gonna see my kids. Were you concerned like a heart attack? Truly, I I thought I was dying. I sensed God telling me stop. Multitasking as a concept is in its origins an idea derived from the world of hardware, not humans. The term was coined by IBM.

SPEAKER_02

Consciousness is only able to focus on one thing at a time. AI is not built, it is grown. Understanding what's essential to personhood and not sacrificing it in the worship of productivity.

SPEAKER_01

It feels demonic to me when you read the data about depression, anxiety, thoughts of self-harm. To seek to continually bring back into awareness the presence of God. Attention is the form that love takes in our lives.

SPEAKER_02

The problem with lack of awareness is I'm not aware of the fact that I'm not aware.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. I never knew my father. I see a vision of my parents. My eyes are closed, but I could see it almost like a movie playing in my mind. I began weeping for my dad, just as a man who had inherited a story that he didn't write for himself.

SPEAKER_02

And then to feel like God is saying to you, You're my boy. Yeah. I love you. You're not alone.

SPEAKER_00

And this is just conversation, right? Just like great. Oh. This is inception.

SPEAKER_02

This is formation. And uh I've already had a wonderful conversation, Jay, with you. So thank you for coming. Even if nothing worthwhile happens on tape, it was good just to have this talk so far. Oh my gosh. Any any chance I get to hang with you, John. It's a gift. Uh Jay Kim is uh a pastor. He is a prolific author, graduate of Fuller Seminary. Uh you have written about the intersection of spirituality and technology. You pastor kind of in the heart of what is thought of as Silicon Valley. So lots of what's captivating people all around the world right now is what kind of occupies you. You're a podcaster. Um, one of the unique uh uh joys of getting to introduce you is you have also been my pastor. And uh that's not true of uh any but a very small handful of folks, and uh that was a great joy. I have told you one of the things I love about Westgate Church, where you serve is your predecessor, Steve Clifford, was a self-confessed Texas redneck football coach, converted, became a pastor, and uh we were having a uh gathering of pastors where Nance and I were living several years ago when you were thinking about going to work at that church. I remember it. And Clifford had just told me he had done some series or conference on courage called Grow a Hair.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

That same week you were sitting there and you said, you know, I've just been exploring some limital spaces lately. I love a church that can have two leaders who can be that different and uh have them point people towards Jesus and just flourish. So uh I love you and thank you for being willing to come on.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man. Yeah, that teaching series tells you everything there is to know about Steve. Not everything, but a lot. But a great deal. So yeah. Uh well, John, you're yeah, you've been my pastor long before I met you. You your work was pastoring me. So this is a gift. And now in our friendship, you continue to pastor me. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh uh I want to talk about uh life change and a deep hunger that people have, uh uh and it will be around peace. And uh I I got to read a manuscript. I don't in these conversations usually do kind of book conversations, but this isn't so much about a book as it is uh a topic that people are desperately hungry for. And um so anybody who's listening that wrestles with uh anxiety or ambition or a sense of busyness or hurry, uh uh I know this will be very, very rich. I wanna I want to begin at the ending. At the end of your book, you talk about dropping your kids off on a Friday and you are driving and just expecting to be in control of your mind and your body and your life as we all expect, and then something unexpected happens. Would you would you take us there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, a few years ago, I was uh I had just stepped into my role, the current role I have at the wonderful church um that I get to serve, that you uh were part of for a while, and um it was a busy, I mean, this is a weird thing to say. It's it feels like it's always a busy season for pastors, and I I can empathize with that. It was a uniquely busy season. We were entering uh a few projects that just felt way too big for me. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you know. Um but yeah, my to-do list and my calendar uh was just overrun. Um but I, you know, at that point I'd already, you know, I'd been a pastor for 20 years. Yeah. And so I think not just not just my heart and my mind, but my body had acclimated to a particular pace. And so I just thought, well, this is what it's like to pastor, you know, a church in Silicon Valley where everything's fast-paced. And so uh I usually take Fridays and Saturdays off. That's kind of my weekend. But um, this particular Friday, I had a gathering that evening for some leaders in our church. It was pretty important, pivotal to the season that we're heading into. Um, so I had a plan to get a number of things done that during the day. And uh my mind, I I just dropped my kids off at school, which I do every day. And then my mind is already racing, uh, moving ahead to all that I needed to get done. And then um I'm driving away from the school, and uh all of a sudden I find myself struggling to breathe and I break out into a cold sweat. And at that point in my life, I thought that I had had, you know, one or two panic attacks, what I thought might have been panic attacks before. But I remember having this very distinct sort of cognitive experience, like the red lights just blinking on the dashboard of my life. Like, no, this is a panic attack. I had I had to pull my car over into the parking lot of this little strip mall because I I didn't feel like I could drive. It was unsafe and um took a few minutes, I think. It felt like an eternity. I I at one point during the episode, I really wondered if that was the last time I was gonna see my kids. I I was struggling so much to breathe.

SPEAKER_02

Were you concerned like a heart attack or something physical was gonna happen to you? Yeah, yeah. It's not at all uncommon with panic attacks.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So you know, when you're in it, you're you're struggling. Your body is wrestling with your mind. So my mind is sort of inputting all these thoughts, ideas. What do I do? What is this? What is happening? But my body's also just trying to like regulate, you know, and I just found myself in the middle of that. Um, so yeah, I I this sounds so hyperbolic, but truly, I I thought I was dying. Yeah. Um, which I think is, you know, in hindsight now, really.

SPEAKER_02

It does not sound hyperbolic to me at all. It sounds like that's what a panic attack feels like.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So long story short, I I settled and um yeah, went went through the various things in the coming days after that that I need to go through and saw somebody. And but uh in the moment in the car, you know, the first thing I thought to do saw somebody like a therapist or a mental health professional just out of curiosity. My counselor, and then I went and got a checkup with my doctor. Yeah. And um, yeah, and I continue to see my my therapist, you know, about once a month. Yep. And that was I I had had this therapist before, it was very on and off. And then I just kind of thought, you know, I think I figured my life out. I don't need to pay X amount of dollars for, but that um a few years ago uh initiated a journey that I continue to be on, where about once a month I go see.

SPEAKER_02

Years ago, a guy who was both an instructor and then a therapist for me, Neil Warren, the guy who started eHarmony, said that uh part of the way he views life is it's good to have somebody like that, a therapist or a clinician, uh uh kind of permanently available. Yeah. Uh where they're on speed dial, and there may be seasons when you don't need them and then seasons when you do. And that was a very helpful comment to me, and I have I have done that since then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, agreed. You know, for me, the monthly rhythm has been so helpful. There are there are many months where I'm thinking to myself, uh, maybe I should just cancel this one. I don't really feel like I'm fine. And but what that episode sort of taught me was um I am not, I do not have my finger very accurate accurately on the pulse of my inner life all the time. And um a lot of that is say that sentence one more time. Yeah, I I have realized that I do not have my finger on the pulse of my inner life very accurately, most of the time. And that awareness is um, I think in many ways, the best I can do in terms of a day-to-day awareness of my inner life is the awareness that I don't have deep awareness.

SPEAKER_02

Which, you know, is I it's like I want to cheer that on because that's the first step towards awareness. The problem with lack of awareness is I'm not aware of the fact that I'm not aware of it. Exactly. And so that's a wonderful step, although kind of humbling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it's quite very humbling and it's quite freeing in some ways. Oh, say about that. Say more about that. Well, it's freeing because I don't live with the incessant pressure to have a precise, accurate reading of what's happening internally, as long as I have rhythms, practices, um, rituals that allow me to position myself, sometimes even forcefully. Like I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go see my therapist on Monday, actually. And honestly, as you and I talk now, here I am with you, and um, I'm so glad to be with you. I feel great. It's you know, like, but I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go on Monday. And knowing that that that rhythm, that ritual exists is so helpful because I don't have to live with that incessant pressure. Like, okay, I I I feel pretty happy right now. I'm with John and we're having this fun conversation. But what's really happening is like, no, it's okay. I can live into this moment and uh also know, and it's not just the time I have with my therapists, other practices that I've integrated into my life. I've got these moments and spaces that are a part of my daily and weekly rhythms that will give me the pause I need to get a bit more precise uh reading in the presence of God by his spirit, um, to have a conversation with him about what what is what is really happening in here and how am I really doing, and then having the right people in my uh in my orbit, you know, on a regular basis who can affirm or sort of course correct. It's like, man, that's not you say you're you know full of joy and uh and and grace and kindness and goodness, but you know, I don't I don't sense that in you as your wife.

SPEAKER_02

You know, my wife might there's a little sign in the room where we are right now that just says, be joyful. Yeah. It's like, oh, that's a good reminder. Yes. Uh it would be nice if it were that simple. Yeah. So I just well, hey, come on, give it the program, be joyful.

SPEAKER_01

Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, going back to that parking lot, uh, long story short, I had a conversation in prayer with God, and I am not the sort, I'm not like a visions and voices sort of person. Um, but as clearly as I've ever heard the voice of God, and it wasn't audible, but as close to audible as I've ever experienced, um, I sensed God telling me, stop. And I remember wrestling with him about that, you know, a bit like, well, stop what exactly, you know? And uh, and it became pretty clear pretty quickly um to stop all of the striving and to stop all of the sort of manufacturing and producing of particular desired outcomes or the attempt to manufacture and produce particular desired outcomes. And so this is not always, but at least in that moment on that very busy day with this very important meeting happening that evening, I sensed that the invitation was to trust the whole thing to him and to uh go in unprepared and to not do all of the work that I had planned on doing for that evening gathering. And um, you know, you and I have a mutual friend, Steve Cuss, who in one of his books tells this fantastic story. Um, he writes a lot about anxiety, and he was a pastor for many years. He writes this fantastic story about intentionally giving a really bad sermon. I love that story, you know, and uh and it was a bit like that. It was it was the intention to go in unprepared. And um, the real joy of it was my sense uh initially was anxiety, but it turned very quickly. And I think this was a grace on that particular day. It turned very quickly to um a small sort of delight, you know, like uh, yeah, go in unprepared and just watch what I do, you know, watch what I do. And so I did. I called my wife and asked her if she could um, you know, take uh her half the day off of work. I told her what I had just gone through and she she took half the day off work and we went and had lunch and uh a long, slow, beautiful lunch. I ate, I still remember I ate a very mediocre French dip, and uh I was disappointed. But then we went and got coffee afterwards, and the coffee was wonderful, and we took a long walk, and and then I went into that meeting that night, very important meeting, dramatically unprepared. I hadn't prepared the slides even that I was gonna show. So I had no slides, you know, and you know me, like I didn't have a meeting with no slides. It's like, well, how's the Lord gonna move?

SPEAKER_02

It's like don't have shown up with no clothes, it's like he is just not done.

SPEAKER_01

It was wild. Um but then God did what he wanted to do, and I realized in that moment, it's like, oh, it's not really up to me hardly at all. I just need to be faithful and show up. And this is not to say we shouldn't prepare.

SPEAKER_02

No, I was thinking when you were saying that, uh what I love about it is it makes tan it's a tangible expression of trusting God. And that's not a formula, it doesn't mean never prepare for a meeting or never prepare for a sermon. Um, but it does mean that if trusting God is always just an abstract thing where try harder to generate that feeling, it kind of can't be done that way. Yeah, it has to take some kind of concrete form. Yeah. And uh, as you know, when I first started preaching, uh people did not talk about panic attacks much back then, but I fainted when I was preaching dead away in one of my first sermons, and then the next time I got up to preach, I fainted again. And uh so part of what I had to do, I had to see a therapist, uh, had to admit that it was stress-related, which felt to me like it was my weakness. And uh it took me a long time. I just resisted the idea of being weak. Yeah. And I had to, for the next year or two, when I was preaching, I would literally get up to preach, because my boss then, John F. Anderson, said, Nope, you know, you're gonna get up and preach again next week, and I don't care if it kills you. Well, thanks, pal. Uh, but I would get up there and I would put a chair next to the pulpit back in those days. Right. So that if that feeling of uh nausea and dizziness and weakness came, I would just sit down in the chair. Yeah. And it was very humiliating. Um what I didn't know then, and I think that you uh are on to so much earlier, was actually I would probably have a lot more to offer people out of my weakness than out of my strength. And there's probably a lot more people that would be able to connect and identify and listen and trust um somebody who has some level of awareness of and is open to the weakness. And to me, it just felt like, no, I just want to get past it, I just want to get past it, I just want to get past it and be strong and not needy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You and I were just talking before we started recording about um a gathering you and I were both at, during which you uh shared not out of your gifts, but out of your wounds. And I was telling you just not just me, but several mutual friends of ours who were at that gathering, how unique. I mean, there were several sessions during the gathering, but how unique and sacred that particular moment felt when you were sharing very much out of your wounds. And one of the things that's encouraging to me, I don't know if this is totally widespread or pervasive, but I see in increasing measure amongst especially amongst emerging church leaders these days uh a growing tendency to um at least an openness to that possibility that God most often brings healing through our wounds. He he builds things through our gifts, but uh healing really comes through the sort of vulnerability and um and then i in in connection to that the sort of empathy that can that can you know develop in a room in real time when we are honest and open and and of course there's uh responsible and irresponsible ways to do that, right? You know, where pastors use their congregations as essentially as a collective therapist or something that's very reckless. But there are these really beautiful ways to do that, and uh a lot of that I actually learned just from our relationship, you know, watching you navigate um your own moons in ways that have become a gift to me and to so many. And it's really scary, but um you think about you know that the concept of salvation and the word in the Greek is synonymous with healing, you know, salvation is not just my golden ticket to heaven when I die. Yeah, it's primarily about being saved from um all that is killing me now, you know, and um becoming alive. And I it's strange how it's our wounds that God uses to bring that sort of life to people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, people uh if you ask the question, remember hearing this a long time ago, you know, who here went to college and people raised their hand, and then you ask the question, uh, who here has experienced cancer? There's a whole different level of fellowship connection between people who have shared uh a loss than people who have experienced the same triumph. Yeah. And part of what I wanted to talk about, because we're we're all wanting that healing and wanting that peace and wondering how to pursue it, is what you have thought and talked about quite a lot as um kind of a tool. I don't mean that in a formulaic way, but but uh something that's actionable and and it was developed by Ignatius a long time ago, and it's a way of looking or reflecting at life. Yeah, and uh so I'd love to hear you just talk a little bit about Ignatius and then uh about that tool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, Ignatius of Loyola, um, founder of the Jesuits, he uh was um you know born into uh a noble family uh in northern Spain and uh as a young man. I I love his story because I can sort of relate. I was certainly not, I was not born into nobility. I was born into, you know, poverty in many ways, but but I can relate because he grew up as a young man, as many young men do, as many young people do, um, dreaming of valor and uh, you know, winning the heart of a beautiful young woman and being a dashing knight in shining armor, vanquishing the enemy. And basically a Disney movie. Disney movie, essentially, is what he wanted. And, you know, a lot of people I think know his story. In short, he he joined the military, he was in battle, and uh this sounds crazy, but he was hit by a cannonball. It crushed both his legs. One of his legs, it left now. Remember, this is a very vain, narcissistic, like um the way he looked was a big deal to him because knights in shining armor always look good in dashing. And uh, it left one of his legs. Well, it shattered both his legs, but one of his legs, a bone protruded literally out of his skin. Like that's how severe it was. He goes through not one, but two very significant and very painful, this is hundreds of years ago, very painful surgeries to fix the problem. Doesn't work, it actually worsens the problem, and he ends up laid up in bed for months.

SPEAKER_02

So he's like the father of plastic surgery. Yeah, it's cosmetic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, but it's gone wrong. Give me a little Botox while you're at it. Exactly. And um, and it leaves uh it leaves him with a permanent limp. He he walks with the literal limp the rest of his life. And during these months, when he's laid up in bed, he asks his caretaker for books on Knights in Shining Armor, Stories of Valor and Conquest. And instead, his caretaker starts bringing him books on the life of Christ and on the life of saints who had gone before, you know. And uh one of his biographers So he didn't ask for those, he didn't just give him them. Yeah, caretaker, because the the caretaker was like, Well, you can't move, you're just gonna read whatever I give you, and uh, so I'm gonna give you books that are good for you, are actually good for you. Yeah, you know, and um and his his whole life changes. So he he realizes oh, this is the life I've been after. Um so, anyways, he recovers, he goes and he lives in a cave for uh a couple months, and during this time he develops a number of practices that have become um tremendously influential out of Ignatian spirituality. One of the things he develops is uh what people today know as the examine. They might call it the prayer of examine or the daily examine. It's hard to do, but it's very simple. It's basically, and there's different ways people translate it, but long story short, it's basically a uh a prayer that has five particular movements that um begins with an awareness of God's presence. It moves to gratitude, then it moves to reflection, particularly on that which was painful. Um, it's a daily practice. So you the the goal of it is to reflect with God on the previous 24 minutes. So you can look back on your day, like you're looking at game film or something. Exactly, exactly. The first four movements you look back. So awareness, presence, and then gratitude, and then reflection uh on the on anything that was particularly hard or painful, especially, and then confession. Um, confession for the past 24 hours. Like, where did I miss? You know, where did I not say yes to God's invitation? Uh, and then the the final movement is the one movement where you look ahead to the next 24 hours and you sort of surrender your self-will to God's will and ask him to help you, you know, live into his will. And um one of the reasons why the examine is challenging, it's challenging for me, has been challenging for lots of people, is not because it's complex, but it's because originally it is designed to again reflect back on your day. So it's typically not always, but typically done at the end of your day. And it it does require a certain level of commitment and discipline because by the end of all of our days, we're quite exhausted. And an extended time in the presence of God reflecting on stuff that was hard is like does not sound like a good time, yeah, you know, at 9:30 p.m. before going to bed. Um but uh I began practicing it on my own a number of years ago, shortly before my panic attack, actually. And then once I had that panic attack, the practice just took on holding me. Yeah, right. Became um really enriching and life-giving. So uh I began practicing it personally just for myself. And then my family, uh Jenny and I have two young children, elementary age children. Um, we created a very simple little sort of family version of it. So to this day, we've been doing this for a couple of years. My kids uh sit with my wife and I, and we sort of go through the exam very um simply, you know, uh at the end of every night. And one of the great gifts of this practice for me has been not the practice itself at the end of every day, but how the practice has um sort of naturally become a lens through which I begin to see all of my life, you know, an awareness of God's presence at all times, trying my best to uh lean into gratitude at all times and so on and so forth. So um, yeah, it's been uh it's still hard, but it it's it feels much more natural, sort of an integrated part of my life now, and um I'm so grateful for it.

SPEAKER_02

So let's start with presence. Uh you talk about uh a kind of uh vision, might be the right word, that you had of your parents, and how that uh kind of spoke to you or guided or led you as you think about the notion of presence. Yeah. Say a word about that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm I said earlier I'm not like a visions and voices guy, although this conversation except apparently you are. This conversation may sound like I'm just like totally complete Pentecostal, charismatic. Maybe I am, I don't know. Um, yeah, a number of years ago, I was in a basement with uh about 20 church leaders from around the country. We were invited to this thing, and it was really beautiful. And we're in this time of prayer and worship, singing, and I was not emotional, I was engaged, but I wasn't, you know, crying or weeping. I was just like speaking with the Lord very quietly in the corner of the room. And um, almost as clear as I'm seeing you now, all of a sudden, unprompted, uh, I see a vision of my parents, um, but they're much younger, you know, like in their 30s. And uh in my vision, I in so my eyes are closed, but I could see it almost like a movie playing in my mind. And um, they're they're sort of hovering above me. And pretty quickly I realize, oh, this is like, I think this is kind of first person me when I was a little child. And um yeah, a bit of the backstory. Uh, my parents separated when I was really young, when I was about four. I never knew my father, and he passed away 12, 13 years ago. So I I literally he passed away without he and I ever having a relationship. In total, I shared two meals with in my entire life that I can remember from four onward. I shared two meals with him, and I had a phone conversation with him about once a year growing up. So I don't know what that would have been, you know, maybe a couple dozen phone conversations, which were all about 30 to 45 seconds long, just small talk. So I he was a man I did not know.

SPEAKER_02

And he did not uh exhibit much interest in getting to know you.

SPEAKER_01

No, he didn't, yeah, he didn't. No, I'm so sorry. Um yeah, uh, so I have this vision, and I had spent my entire life up to that point essentially thinking of my father as the antagonist in the story of my family, and thinking of my mother, who is still to this day the most passionate follower of Jesus I know. She's my hero. But I had always sort of boxed my mother in very positively as the protagonist of our story. She was the hero. And I had this vision, and in the vision, my father is um the one who is gentle and calm and steady, and my mother is just railing into him. And I won't get into all the backstory of my sort of upbringing and such, but um, it was a dramatic 180 in uh the narrative that I had been told and the narrative that I had told myself. And so I felt in that moment in that little church basement, for the very first time in my life, I remember having a very distinct emotion toward my dad that I had never had toward him before. And that was one of empathy and compassion. Wow. That he was a broken man who um and I knew parts of his story. He had a lot of trauma growing up in his own life, but I had just never connected those dots. I just thought, well, he was just kind of a loser who abandoned our family. So screw him. You know, that was the narrative. Yep. And uh everything it started to change in that moment. And I remember I began weeping, not because the music was good, I began weeping for my dad. Not as my dad, but just as a man who had inherited a story that um he didn't write for himself. And uh for whatever reason, he either never did the work or, you know, probably more accurately, he just never was given um the language and the invitation by someone to to do the work and to invite God by his spirit to um do some of that healing work. And so that's been an ongoing journey. Uh, but all of that to say, in that moment, I realized the vision was the reason I didn't see myself was it was first person. And uh, so I've worked with my therapist on this quite a bit, and um, you know, I don't know exactly if it's like a core memory that bubbled to the surface, if this was a real scene, or if it was just my own narrative kind of being reshaped in my mind. Either way, uh, I started to feel empathy and compassion for my dad, and then eventually in that moment, real empathy and compassion toward myself, by like my younger self. Yes, you know, and that's a it's kind of a weird thing, but um it's it sent me on a pretty significant, slow and painful but significant healing journey. But what the most important thing about that experience is that um I started fighting the vision because I'm not a visions and voices guy. I was like, I uh I maybe I'm tired, you know, like I I didn't sleep well. No, too much. Too much coffee or whatever. And uh so I started, you know, prayerfully talking to the Lord in that moment. I was just like, God, if if this is this is so weird, but if this is like really something, you need to make it clear to me. And uh, and just nothing happened. So so I'm wrestling it down, you know. It's like maybe this is just like my my brain, and and uh, but I'm thinking about my father and I'm thinking my about myself now as his son. Now I'm a father, and it's like all this stuff. Like, how is this story being passed on through me to my children? What what can I do to not pass on certain elements, all those sorts of things? And um, and then all of a sudden, uh, this goes on for I don't know, for for a while, you know, 20, 30 minutes. I'm I'm processing this and the band singing songs, but I'm not really listening. And um, and then all of a sudden, my friend Todd, who's in the room, um, comes behind me, places a hand on my shoulder, and he just gently starts praying into my ear, um, Lord, I I just sense you wanting to tell Jay to slow down, it's okay, and he can just move at your pace. Wow. He just starts praying this over me. And something happens in that moment. I start to settle. And then as I'm settling, the worship leader starts singing a song that I actually really don't like. And I I don't, you know, I'm gonna get in trouble here saying that it's a wonderful song, lots of churches sing it, but I'm not a big fan of the song. Hadn't been up to that moment. Right. I'm having this conversation with the Lord, like, God, if this is really you, you need to like, I I I just I would really love to know, love some affirmation and confirmation. And then I get this prayer from my friend Todd as if the Lord is settling me down. Hey, it's okay, slow down. And then the the worship leader starts singing this song about God being a really good father. And in that moment, I have what I can only describe as an experience, a tangible experience of the tangible loving presence of God, the Father. I mean, almost in a in a physical way. Wow, you know. So maybe I am a charismatic. I don't know. Um and uh and what that showed me was that it's possible. And I don't mean the ecstatic experience. We should never be chasing that.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

What it showed me, similar to the panic attack, not that that became the formula for my life, but it was a moment, a necessary moment in my life, um, where God was, I think, telling me, yeah, man, I'm closer than you think. Yeah. And you can access me in ways that maybe you've not believed up until now. And um and that's been true for the last few years. I've experienced that in an ongoing way. Uh much more, you know, much more sort of much more quietly and and gently. Not that dramatic.

SPEAKER_02

But as you tell that story, you for me listening to it. I mean, when I think about you as a little boy not having a father that just loves you and is proud of you, I just I get an ache hearing that. And then and then to come to a point when you're ready to be able to say, Well, my dad had his own story. Yeah. And uh to connect the dots of that and his story and his hurt to my experience, and then to feel like God is saying to you, You're my boy. Yeah. I love you. You're not alone. Yeah. Um, and then to be able, then when you're uh seeking to begin this exam and uh invite God to be present, uh just to have that memory. Oh yeah, there I I have had a moment when that was a real gift to me. It strikes me for anybody listening to try to think of when have been moments in my life when I have felt uh a presence beyond myself and a goodness beyond myself and being cared for and being loved, and to to just use that memory as kind of a homing device.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's what now part of what you talk about is one of the obstacles to that is multitasking. Yeah. And if my wife were here, she would throw up in her mouth a little bit because she would say, that sounds like such a man, introverted, academically oriented male kind of thing to say. Yes. If you're a woman and you're a mom and you got young kids, you got everybody pulling at you, multitasking is an indispensable way of life, and it is an elitist masculine misconception that it's possible to live without multitasking. So talk a little bit about multitasking. How do you understand it? What would you say to Nancy if she were here? Yeah. And uh uh what is it about it, at least if it's done in the wrong way, that can be destructive to human flourishing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I love Nancy so much. I can imagine her saying all those things to me right now. And it's like uh oddly enough, it makes me so happy because I miss her. I haven't seen her in so long. Yep. What I would give for her to yell at me and tell me I'm an introverted. I can I can channel that very quickly. Um well, I mean, here's what I would say multitasking as a concept is uh in its origins, linguistically and conceptually, an idea derived from the world of hardware, not humans. Oh, that's fascinating. So the the term was coined by IBM, the computer company. I did not know that. And uh they they created this term in an advertisement campaign in the 1960s. They had just released something called the IBM 360 mainframe computer. You can look it up online and it's wonderful because the computer is the size of a room. Yeah, it takes like three people to operate and it has significantly less computing power than your Apple Watch, you know, like, but um uh when they started advertising it, it was kind of a uh computer, obviously. It wasn't consumer product, it was for businesses because this giant expensive thing. And in their write-up for it in the ad campaign, they said this computer is the first machine in history that can multitask. And that's where the term came from. And uh what they meant was that this computer is so fast, it's so powerful, it can do multiple tasks at the same time. The truth is um that was a half-truth. That computer did not multitask, it um was context switching very quickly. So it was actually doing one thing at a time. It was just moving back and forth from the one thing to the next thing very rapidly, very fast. So, to the human eye, human experience, it felt like it was doing multiple things at once. Now, uh computers today can you can argue that some of them do actually multitask, but even that is kind of an argument, you know, there's an argument to be had there. Anyways, all that to say, multitasking as a concept uh came from the world of hardware, not humans, but very quickly the word just took off because people could relate to it because in their own lives they were context switching. We are context switching all the time, but we perceive it in our bodies as multitasking. So we just took the language, we're like, oh yeah, people do this too. And you know what? I'm actually pretty good at it. And so it it became language used to sell computers, a word used to sell computers has become now sort of like an Olympic medal we put around our necks because we're able to do so much all at the same time. You know, we look back on our day. The problem is, um, well, there's many things that are problematic. One, uh, multitasking at a neurological level is not possible. The human brain doesn't actually work that way. Right. So there is no multitasking human brain.

SPEAKER_02

You can switch back and forth thinking about different topics pretty rapidly, but consciousness is only able to focus on one thing at a time. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And what um neuroscientists like Gloria Mark and others, you know, people who have studied this extensively, what they all almost unanimously say is that when you multitask, or in other words, context switch very quickly, even the motion of my hand sort of reflects this. The the sort of imagery they use to describe what's happening to you mentally when that happens is if your mind is a whiteboard, if your emotions are a whiteboard, then when you multitask, it's like writing something down and then wiping it off the whiteboard and writing another thing and then clearing it off and writing another thing. And um, sure, you have sort of written down a number of things over time, but none of it is really retained at a deep level because you're just wiping the board clean every single time. This is one of the reasons why uh we can look back, like you can plop yourself down on the sofa after a long grueling day of accomplishing everything on your task list. And then once your body settles to a pace that is more human, most of us have had this experience where you look, you reflect back on your day and you ask yourself, like, what was that? What what did I do today? What did I get done? What was the purpose or the point? You know, we have these existential questions we ask ourselves when our bodies can sort of settle into a more human pace. And it's because when we context switch so much. We're essentially scattering our attention to a million different things. And uh, you know, M. Scott Peck talks about how um attention is the form that love takes in our lives. And as followers of Jesus, if we do believe that we are the purpose and the point of life is to be formed by love into a people of love, and your attention is your sort of embodied um cognitive, emotional expression of love. Uh, at the end of a day, if your attention has been scattered to and fro, it's one of the reasons why we lay down on the couch and we think to ourselves, what was that? Like, is this life? It's because it's actually not really life and life to the full, the way Jesus intended. Um, because that life requires attention, you know, receiving the attention of others and giving it in return.

SPEAKER_02

I was thinking, as you were describing mind in that way, uh Frank Lobick, who is a Methodist, missionary, and educator, and uh kind of 20th-century pioneer in learning how to live in the presence of God. And he's got a little book called Letters from a Modern Mystic, where he describes beginning that experiment when he was kind of at the end of his rope. And one of the ways he describes the mind is he says mind is an oscillating thing. And uh that can be a problem, but then what he decided to do with his mind was to seek to continually bring back into awareness the presence of God and to use the mind's ability to oscillate to say, okay, right now we're here, we're talking, we're sitting at this table, I've got these no, and God, you're here. Yeah. And now I'm watching Jay, I'm looking at your face, I'm looking at your body, I'm trying, and God, you're here. Yeah. And now the next topic. So that notion of maybe uh a way of thinking about life that transcends multitask is in any given moment, am I able to be present to God? Yeah. Yeah. Whether I have you know child care and meal prep and a business, you know, meeting to get ready for, am I able to bring God into it? Because it's interesting. Even just the thought of God, would you be a part of this? Yep. Um thinking about the pace of peace um when I'm actually able to remember that God uh just the thought of him brings peace. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Awareness of his presence, yeah, connection to him. I mean, peace is not tranquility, you know, peace is a relational word.

SPEAKER_02

You talk about uh uh we all want an easy life, but the difference between like a soldier being at ease versus easy, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well yeah, I mean, I was never in the military, but um I've seen enough movies to know I've watched them on TV when the commanding officer says at ease soldier, what the officer is not saying is like, okay, just take it easy now. Go do your thing. Yeah. What the officer intends is hey, we can let our guard down just a little bit. The formalities can just drop just a bit, and we can be a bit more connected on a human level. Of course, the metaphor sort of has its limits because God wants more than just uh, you know, he's not a commanding officer telling us, like, okay, you can kind of maybe call me by my first name Yahweh now or something, you know. Um, so but but it the point being it's about connectivity between any two parties that are at ease with one another. Yes. The first time I ever had coffee with you, I was not at ease. You were uh, you know, I had read all your books. I was like, this is John Ortberg. You weren't John Ortberg the person, you were John Ortberg, the pastor, speaker, author. And I was not at ease. But over time, as relationship builds, you become John my friend. And um there's an ease to the relationship.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, that's good. It but it's it's kind of a byproduct of knowing. Yeah. You can't force it, you can't manufacture it. Uh, and in a way, as we think about peace or being at ease, uh uh I can work towards it indirectly, but I cannot will it. And so I kind of need not to be in too much of a hurry to go after it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it also means that peace is not about getting away from all the chores and the to-do's to sort of like, hey, everybody. I just read an article. I don't know if this is fake news or not. I just thought it was hilarious that adult men spend on average six hours a year in the bathroom just for peace and quiet.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I've I totally believe that. Only six hours? Yeah, yeah. That sounds like an underestimated to me. I've also read when they'll ask people what's your favorite room in the house. Um for for men, it's usually either the kitchen or the bedroom. For women, particularly mothers of young children, it's the bathroom. Yeah, consistently. Which is the only door that's got a lock on it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, in there and have a moment of peace. That's right. Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. So that's not that's not what biblically speaking, peace is. Peace actually ushers you into the fray, but at ease.

SPEAKER_02

So say a little bit more about biblically what because you know, as we think about peace and being a person of peace from the perspective of the writers of scripture, what did that mean? It wasn't just uh being on vacation or not having anxiety.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it's it's not sort of running from, uh, it's uh stepping into. So peace, I mean, biblically in in in the Hebrew, the word that many people are familiar with, shalom, it's actually uh um it's a it's a word about equity. It's a word about uh alignment, is another way. It's a basically a way of saying, hey, are we are we aligned? Are we good? Is our relationship good and true and beautiful and equitable? Is there justice here? Um, it is innately a relational, connective word. And so when the Bible talks about peace, it is not talking about quiet tranquility away from everybody. It's not talking about hiding out in the bathroom, although that's a very necessary practice for for many people, especially discipline. Yeah, I'm not knocking it, you know. Go go renovate your bathroom and make it a place of of uh tranquility. But peace, biblically, is about being aligned and connected in a relationship, essentially a relationship of love that is life-giving and life receiving.

SPEAKER_02

I never made this connection before, but there's a phrase in the Psalms that always strikes me as so poignant. Oh, that I had wings of a dove. And and that's in a time of great stress or great pain. Oh, that I had wings of a dove, so that I didn't have to be me here and I could go there, but I don't have wings of a dove. Yes. And so it's not going to be about going there. It's I will have to find him here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And that is um, that's the gift of peace, is that you do not have to leave the madness and the chaos to go find God somewhere.

SPEAKER_02

So so talk a little bit then about uh you have kind of an interesting take on gratitude, which is part of that examination process and where you find gratitude, and at the deeper levels, what you find gratitude for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, gratitude, I there's so much to say about it. Gratitude is uh is a choice, you know. I think it's connected. I I've I've learned a lot about this, actually, just from you, John, from your life. Um, that we are most people today are seeking uh pleasure, you know. There's the the phrase that was coined by um the psychologist, I think Michael Async a number of decades ago, the hedonic treadmill. We find ourselves just constantly chasing whatever thing we think will bring us pleasure, but it's a treadmill because you're constantly chasing, but you you sort of never arrive. Yeah. Um, but joy is something else. You know, biblically speaking, joy is this sort of pervasive underlying reality that undergirds all of life, the highs and the lows, the peaks, the valleys, the the pains and and and the successes. And um I think when we can tap into, I know you're not asking me about joy, but just for me, I think so much of gratitude is derived from that place.

SPEAKER_02

They are very closely related.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, it is not until we can find ourselves um in the reality of joy that is accessible and available at all times through the good times and the bad. It isn't until we get to that place that we can live with pervasive gratitude for all things. Um so yeah, for me, I think that's an ongoing challenge. You know, I I think this is true for you too. I don't, I think it's true for most people who who write books. I don't write from a place of expertise. I write from a place of aspiration, aspiration, struggle, and hardship. So it is not to say, hey, let me tell you how this works, but it is to say I have found at least a path forward. And uh it's a it's a painful path often, um, but it is a path well worth taking. And that is the path. It is to, it is to learn the difference between pleasure and joy. And uh, you know, going back to that whole idea about, well, you know, what about young parents who are just trying to like, man, they got a multitask, and that's totally true. Uh, there's that fantastic little book called Domestic Monastery from Ronald Rolheiser. I read it a number of years ago when our children were really young, and it had a it, it it just shifted things so beautifully for me. He has this wonderful little thing he says about he's essentially sort of paralleling monastery life to like parenting life, you know, family life. And he talks about how in monasteries there are the bells that um usher in the moments of prayer. Yeah. And he makes this connection. He says, so young parents, essentially, the next time your infant just starts crying, you know, on the on the dot at the same time every day because they're hungry or they're tired for a nap, hear it as a monastery bell to pray, but not just to pray, oh Lord, please help my little kid stop crying, but to pray a prayer of gratitude. Um, what a gift, you know, what a gift. I remember reading it.

SPEAKER_02

Might have been Marjorie Thompson wrote a book called Soul Feast. She was having to care for an aging parent. And so uh her old routines for prayer were not working anymore. And then she was going up a staircase, stubbed her toe, and found herself saying, Oh God. And then it struck her that was kind of a prayer. Yeah. And then that struck her in this season of my life, my prayer will have to be more episodic prayer or occasion-stimulated prayer than scheduled prayer. Yeah. And I thought that's a really interesting distinction. And I'd never thought like that you could do that before or that that would count. But there could be a season of life where you end up feeling guilty because you're not able to do the scheduled thing. Yeah. That if you grew up in a more regimented uh Christian tradition, you might have been told that's what you're supposed to do. And actually, you can do something that is built much more around episode occasion events. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, and even that becomes it can be cut, you might stumble your way into realizing, oh, this is a particular rhythm and ritual in my life. Exactly. Because every Monday, Wednesday, I step into this meeting at this time, and there is this person who just grates on me, and their personality doesn't mesh with mine, and I will receive that moment as as the monastery to pray, to pray for this person.

SPEAKER_02

So that's gratitude, then the next step in the examin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's reflection, you know, it's to reflect on your day, but in particular to reflect um on any moments or situations or circumstances that have been painful, and to bring that pain to God and to surrender it, not for him to fix it.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, not for you know why do you not why why why do you not ask him to fix it when you're doing reflection?

SPEAKER_01

Because I think it's about um it's just the ongoing gift of presence that flows through each of these movements in many ways. Um, you know, the the the book that that we're sort of loosely talking about, it's really a book about our attention, is essentially, I think, the way it comes down to distraction and attention. It's about the examine, but really the the gift of the examine for me. I love that it's called the examine. We just don't examine life all that much, you know. Uh we just kind of live it without examining.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know if you've seen somebody sent me an article recently where some of the titans of uh tech industry and AI and other very well-known folks are are essentially anti-reflection. They're saying, I don't spend my time reflecting on my inner life because that's a waste of time and it would keep me from climbing the next hill.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That just sounds to me like a way to become a machine and not a human being. I mean, what is it that separates us, you know? What is it that separates humans from hardware, especially right now as we're talking all of the conversation around AI, artificial intelligence? Yes, people are asking this question. Yes. And when you read, I don't mean Christian thinkers, although there are some brilliant ones doing great work in this space. I mean just like the leading philosophers and thinkers of our day in the secular space. And when you read what some of the designers of this technology are saying, you very quickly realize um we are being forced to ask that question about the delta or the difference between hardware and humanity. And what we're coming to, the reason AI is causing so much angst for so many people. I just there was an article in The Atlantic not long ago written by people who are designing this stuff, um, on the on the cutting edge of it. And the title of the article is AI is not built, it is grown. And what they meant by that was that um the the sort of pioneering uh technologists and engineers and designers, the ones who like understand this stuff better than anyone else in the world, what they would tell you, what they have told us very publicly is we don't actually know how it works.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um, one of the things that's interesting about that is it's forcing us to reflect on how the machine is reflecting on itself. That's why we're asking existential questions like, is this thing more than just a digital technology? Does it have some sort of soul or spirit, you know, consciousness? People are asking that question because we're we're beginning to see this thing reflects back on itself. And that is what it means to be a human, to have a soul. And I'm not saying AI has a soul. I'm just saying what it tells us is if we live our lives as human beings without leaning into the gift that is so readily and available ours and available to us, the gift of reflection, we're acquiescing. I would this sounds like hyperbole. I think without reflection, we are acquiescing a significant part of our humanity. Yeah. Um, we're learning to become unhuman, you know, without so fascinating.

SPEAKER_02

I remember years ago, Rich Mao uh used to be president of Fuller Seminary and ethicist, uh, when he was uh examining the difference between uh personhood and technology, uh, said for him a lot of it was rooted in trust. So Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not into your own understanding and all your ways, acknowledge him. And he said, the day that a computer is able to trust the Lord with all its heart, then it may have crossed the boundary into personhood. Um, maybe it's possible that somehow that could happen. You know, God only knows for sure what's possible, but uh that uh understanding what's essential to personhood uh and not sacrificing it in the worship of productivity. Yes, uh seems like a huge issue. Yeah, I want to come back to another word that you use distractions. Yeah. Because part of what you talk about is that historically Christians would say that distraction was or could be demonic. Yeah. That's a really interesting observation. So talk about that a little.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, if we take seriously the Apostle Paul's invitation um to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, then what he seems to be saying, at least in part, is that what we let into our minds and what we allow to linger there has um a deeply spiritual formational effect on who we are and who we're becoming. So when you look at uh church history and you look at the desert fathers and mothers and many of the monastic movements, and there's a lot of rich sort of literature about this, and it's really quite wild to read some of this stuff. Um, it seems that in uh in a in the sort of pre-Enlightenment world, it was just sort of a given. The assumption was that if my attention is to be devoted to God, because attention is the expression of my love, yeah. Anything that takes hold of my attention in a significant way or distracts my attention from the sort of true center of my being, which is to be in deep union with God, to receive his love and to return that love to God and to those in my midst, other image bearers, other humans. If that is if that is the center of what it means to be human, then my attention needs to be given to that beautiful invitation and endeavor. So then what is distraction? It is that which takes me away from deep union with God and um the ability to deeply receive the love of God within that union and to give that love to others. So who or what does that in the world? Who or what is it that wants to take me away from union with God? Well, it's the devil and his legion of demons, you know. This sounds so crazy talking about this in 2026, but um, so uh for generations, for many generations, the belief was that uh not all distraction, but the majority of distractions were demonic. And this is gonna make me sound like a crazy person. I I don't know that they were wrong. Yeah, I think that there is a demonic element to um the distracted, the utterly distracted age that we live in. And in fact, I I would say I know a lot of listeners, especially if they're parents of children or teenagers, have probably read some of the work by people like Jonathan Haidt and others about social media in particular. And when we look at what the data tells us about what all of our scrolling and what all of our sort of uh, you know, one post to the next to the next, the sort of perpetual distraction that we are living in, what it is doing to an entire generation of human beings. Um it feels demonic to me when you read the data about depression, anxiety, thoughts of self-harm, um suicidal ideation. Yes, that feels demonic to me.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Oh, so it's so striking as you talk about uh devotion of attention. I would tend to think of sermons about devotion to God involving uh you know your stewardship of your money, uh stewardship of your servanthood, um, but not uh that I ought to. I am invited to devote my attention to God. And um uh and it makes me think of all the kinds of statements in the Bible. Uh always before me I set you, O Lord. You know, you keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you. Yeah. And on that one, I think is like for a lot of us. So distraction isn't so much just changing channels in my mind, or I was thinking about this task, now I'm distracted. This task, at its core, in a demonic sense, it's uh something is pulling my attention away from God. Yeah. And that's not a good thing, that's not gonna lead to a good place.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it comes back to what you said earlier about um the simple sort of invitation to live with constant awareness of God's presence. Uh it's hard to do, but if we can do it, it, you know, we don't have to upend our entire life. You don't have to like reorder your entire schedule. Although for some of us that might be a part of the story, really, it's about living with constant, ongoing awareness of God's loving presence at all times. And distraction in a demonic sense is anything and everything that pulls us away from that union with God, awareness of his presence, uh, into something or some someone else.

SPEAKER_02

So then that brings us to confession. I want to ask you a question around this. Um, because it's such a powerful dynamic. Yeah. And uh I think we resist it so much, and it makes such a difference in our lives, we we engage in it. Um, you quote Kurt Thompson in the book, who has written quite a lot about shame, and Kurt has groups now that he'll meet with, and at the very core of what they're doing is very, very deep confessional work. I was talking uh two days ago uh on the way here with uh former pastor, works still part-time as a pastor, Rankin Wilburne, very, very gifted teacher, and he's got a ministry called Broomtree and uh works with pastors a lot that have been through difficulty or pain. And uh he says, really, until they get to deep levels of confession, there's not really anything significant going on. So one of the questions in those groups, because they're very safe confidential groups, is uh what sins are you wrestling with that if you told your church you would get fired? Wow. So what sins are you wrestling with? You don't have to ask answer that one, but uh say a word about confession because in my experience and in talking with people, that one we all kind of get it at the cognitive level. I ought to do that, but it's just hard work. People tend to avoid it. Uh in church services, if I was preaching or leading a worship service, inviting people into a time of confession uh usually felt like it was meeting either resistance or people feeling like I can't think of anything right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because they've not tapped into that deeper place because it doesn't necessarily and I get it, it doesn't feel safe in a big room with lots of people you don't really know that well or at all to go to that that place. I mean, uh, you know, I uh a part of me just wants to throw the question back at you. One of the most profound sort of um stories I've heard about confession is the story you tell about years ago, your friend who you still talk to you know on a weekly basis about um writing it all down. I'm sure you know those watching and listening have heard the story before, but writing it all down and spending how many it was a long time you said that you sat down because you went through everything line by line, and then at the end of it, your friend looked at you and said, John, I've never loved you more than I love you right now. And um I think it's important on a functional level, you know, most of us know this. Obviously, it's gotta be the right person. Yeah. Um, I think in my experience as a pastor and just as a follower of Jesus, it has always felt so much more safe to think about to a certain extent, to think about confession as uh, you know, I'm so glad I'm a Protestant and I don't have to go to another human being, sit in a little boo, say the words out loud, you know, um, and I can just tell the Lord directly. But even then, you don't really tell him directly most of the time. Right. What we mostly do is we just kind of default to the like, Lord, you know, you know all, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm good. All my wrong years done, and the most shameful parts of who we are, and the stuff that's, you know, for me, just being being honest, all of us have different stories. Um, I grew up as a kid uh quite embarrassed most of the time. Um single parent, home. I moved a lot as a child. I went to four different elementary schools in five years. I went to do two different high schools. So I went to uh seven different schools between first grade and twelfth grade. And uh, what that meant, it meant lots of things. One of the things it meant was that I just did not have close friends. I I had long stretches of my upbringing where I had no friends. And so um, and most of the time in these new environments as I went from school to school, I was I was just pretty embarrassed um for whatever reason. Sometimes it was because of things people would say to me. Sometimes it was the simple sort of experience of someone not knowing my name, you know, like, oh, that guy, or those little things that we it's not really a big deal, but as a kid, and what's interesting is now in my mid-40s, I still feel that way when I walk into a room and uh some, you know, I'm in Enneagram 3. Um, so I I I care so deeply, uh dangerously so, about how people perceive me, what people think of me, you know. So even little things like that that are not a big deal, like, oh, I don't know his name, that guy or whatever, those feel like these like really jarring slights to me. So I I grew up um quite embarrassed, and because of that, actually, uh Jenny and I, my wife and I, um, our biggest fights for the entire 19 years we've been married, our biggest fights are always 98% of the time, they are rooted in a moment where I felt embarrassed. Yeah. Um, not because she intended, she's not once intentionally tried to embarrass me. It's my own sort of brokenness, and and they I I always over-react because my body is reacting, yes, you know, like I'm 10. And then she's kind of at this point she understands, but at the you know, in the moment it's very jarring. It's like, wait, what? That wasn't a big deal at all. Why then it's always rooted in my embarrassment. All that to say, um one of the reasons why I confess to why I have defaulted to confessing to the Lord in the abstract most of the time, is because it feels embarrassing. Yeah. So you ask that question, what are the things that if I confessed very truly and honestly, would get me fired from my job? I can probably list things from my past and my present. Um, but even as I say that and think about it, I can feel in like right now in my in in this place, I can feel in my body a shift. Um, and it's that I just I don't want to be embarrassed. So a practice that I've been that has been so helpful for me is to have two for me two people in particular um with whom I have had a similar conversation to the one that you had all those years ago with your dear friend. And uh and it's still hard. It's still not easy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's kind of like if it's not hard, I'm not going to the deeper place where I need to go. It's like jumping into a pool of cold water. It's just every time that cold water shock is gonna be there. Yeah. And uh it never gets easy. But eventually I'd rather do life with that kind of relationship than do life without it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and to feel loved on the other side of it is one of the most formative. Yeah, I think it's one of the most formative experiences a human being can have.

SPEAKER_02

Last part of the examination process, and then we'll go to the lightning round, uh, is you've been looking back, looking back, looking back, looking back, but then at the end, you get to look forward. Yeah. And so what is that like? Um, how does that help you move through the day? Are you a person who naturally carries a spirit of optimism and resilience into the day? How does that what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um, I think generally I'm a pretty optimistic person. Uh so generally, not always. Um, but uh the the final movement of the examine, um, looking forward to the day, it's not really it's not a transactional part of the prayer. It's not like, Lord, these are the things I'm trying to accomplish. Please get them done. Please help me accomplish them and accomplish them well. It's a prayer of surrender. And uh it's a prayer of, you know, it's Jesus' prayer. Yeah, not my will, but yours be done. So good. So it's hard. Um, it's not like the the prize at the end we get to after we've been through the first four movements. It's like, okay, I reflected, I confess. Now I get to tell God everything I need Him to do for me. And instead, it's an honest sort of surrendering of all that I wish to see happen, and then letting um letting God take that and saying, Not my will, but yours be done. And uh there's a real freedom in that. It's also frightening though, because Jesus prayed that prayer and then he got killed on a cross. So there's that. There's that, yeah. You know, there's so I think often of the Bonhoeffer line when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die when I pray that prayer. And it's a small, simple, whispered question to myself Am I willing to die? Yeah. To my own aspirations and dreams, my own plans. That's usually what it is. Yeah. Here are my plans, Lord. Am I willing to die to these plans? And uh what I've discovered is um just the act of praying that prayer, how willing I am to die to my own plans or not, just the practice of saying it to the Lord has over time shaped me into the sort of person that on a regular ongoing basis, a little bit more every single day, can surrender and say, you know, I trust you. You know better than I do. And uh if this doesn't work out, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be really hard, and I'll be disappointed and I'll feel all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but I trust you. I I as you talk about that, I I think of Dallas, he would sometimes use the image of a man carrying his cross to the place of crucifixion. You know, because Jesus made that comment, take up your cross way before he himself was crucified. And Dallas would say, you know, if you think about what's going on in the mind of the man who's carrying his cross, he's not wondering how his goats are doing.

SPEAKER_03

Oof.

SPEAKER_02

Or, you know, uh how the 401k is a cumulative thing. So on the one hand, uh, it's so difficult and painful in surrender. On the other hand, there is an enormous kind of freedom in it. Yes. It's like, no, no, no, if I'm on my way there, those attachments that I used to have, they're kind of not there. Man, and that's free.

SPEAKER_01

Freedom. And there's freedom in it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Particularly if I trust that there is life on the other side of the cross.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yes. That's the key.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Do I trust people? Okay. So uh lightning round, you only get like one at the most two sentences. These are questions that folks have actually sent in as we were doing this. Oh wow. This is gonna be really hard to do as a lightning round question. How are you being formed right now? Or if you're if Jenny was here, how would she say you were being formed right now?

SPEAKER_01

Um, Simplicity is forming me, and I think she would say that too. Cool. We are simplifying our lives, and it's been a gift and painful.

SPEAKER_02

What book did you most recently read?

SPEAKER_01

Oh gosh. Well, um right now, I just picked up a new book by Alan Noble, and I'm so bad with titles, but um, it's about virtue and uh it's really lovely. The most recent book I read that has had the most sort of lasting impact on me is uh about a month ago. I finished um Paul Kingsnorth's new book, uh Against the Machine, and I would highly recommend necessary reading.

SPEAKER_02

Cool. I'm I'm just a couple chapters into it. He's such a good writer. Oh my god, incredible writer. Yeah. What sermon content are you kicking around in your mind? The Gospel of John.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're in it for the next year. Oh, that's fabulous, and I can't wait.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, cool. What's a conversation you had with one of your kids lately that made you laugh or smile?

SPEAKER_01

My son in Little League hit his first ball into the outfield. Oh, and uh, it was the best conversation afterwards. He's seven, and he now thinks he's Shohei Otani, dude.

SPEAKER_02

You know what? And maybe he is. That's the perfect place to stop. May it be so. Uh Jay, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. I really, really agree. You're a gift. I'm so grateful.