The Climb, Megan Is Kim & Why You Have to Start Before You're Ready

Erin, Megan, Cat, and Clare are in the chat this week. The sisters get into what it's actually been like climbing cringe mountain, early lessons from leaping before you're ready, and why they're still climbing anyway. Erin opens up about starting Pepper Home, experimenting in public, overcoming doubt, and why pushing through those early setbacks is a skill everyone needs to develop. Plus: the sisters find their Kardashian counterparts (Megan is absolutely Kim), a full sister fight club breakdown, and everything they're trying, buying, and loving this week.

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Hey guys. Hello guys. The cheekers. How we darn.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

I know. I missed you guys already. I'm sad. You're messing. Yeah, how did it feel to be back? Felt great. Yesterday was beautiful, which was nice. Got to walk all around the West Village, which I haven't done in a while. And it was good to be back. And also, too, I have to say, somehow I've just never been in the new area for a cellar or Amtrak when you leave New York since Moynihan. And it's a different experience altogether. Penn Station used to give me so much angst.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

It's amazing that I I love that place. I enjoy taking the Amtrak because of it. I want to be so afraid of it.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

My one qualm, and I don't understand why they haven't done this, is why don't they have seating anywhere?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Because I know the reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

I know the reason I know the reason. What? Because they don't want people camping. Yeah, they don't want people camping out in there like they did at Penn Station.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

People could sleep on the floor, it's super clean.

SPEAKER_05 1:11

It's a different vibe, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

It is it is a the train station where millions of people stroll through. It's probably not clean. Yeah, but if I almost sat on the floor today, I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

I I wasn't. Oh, I've sat on the floor. Yeah. But that is just my one thing that I'm like, you couldn't have a small room somewhere. But they do have a ragging boat, right? What?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

What there's a ra I think there was a rag and bone there today. I was like, this is so random. Maybe uh you were right. I think I'm right.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

You're talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

You are right.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

I think it's like a little pop-up or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Hilarious. Anyway, that was enjoyable.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, it's just always a better experience than flying like that. Oh, agree. Yeah. But was your Wi-Fi shit on the train?

SPEAKER_04 1:53

No, it was pretty good, actually.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

Oh did you uh sell it or Northeast Regional?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Oh, I sell it. I'm too old. So

I'm too old for the Northeast Regional

SPEAKER_02 2:01

I'm too old for Northeast Regional.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

I realized that when we trained back on Friday, I was like, I got I can't be taking the Northeast Regional.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Too old. It's like when you like you're like 22 and you're taking the Feng Hua bus and then you're like uh also like upgrade. You need the Wi-Fi for work such. I know it was it's amazing how productive you can be on the train. And I love that they now have assigned seats. That also has really reduced my anxiety. Do you remember? Yes, Aaron. We'd have a strategy. We'd have a strategy, like they wouldn't tell you where the train was coming in, so everybody would try and figure it out ahead of time, and then it would be like a mad dash to get a seat. Now you just have an assigned seat, it's a hundred times better. I don't know why they that would take them so long to do that.

SPEAKER_05 2:47

Some clarifying pointers that's for Acela business class tickets. So not everyone is getting an assigned seat.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

I think every ticket on Acela, you have an assigned seat. I got yelled at by an attendant for walking under the guardrails to get to our line because they had announced the track. Remember, Claire?

SPEAKER_05 3:05

You and Kevin were like Kat was where were we going? I forget where, but wasn't this on Friday? We were no, but there was another time where Kat, Kellen, and I were on the train, and the stress Kat was under about making sure we were on the right track. And I was like, I think it's gonna be this one. And Kat was standing on the other end of the station being so stubborn, wouldn't come over to my line, and then sprinted over. But she ducked under the what are those the things called? The garlic rails? What are those?

SPEAKER_04 3:40

The line things, the line together, the velvet robes, the velvet robes, yeah, but they were not velvets, but they're not velvet, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

You play with them at airports, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Some guy went under it today and cut the line, and I was like, You gotta be fucking kidding me.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Like, did you catch yelled at?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I did that, but I wasn't cutting.

The Line Cutting vs. Line Merging Debate

SPEAKER_02 3:57

I wasn't cutting.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Cat would never there was no one in front of me. I would never cut a line.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

That's one thing I wouldn't do. I don't like following rules. I would not cut a line because that's cut losers. Claire.

unknown 4:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

You cut lines.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

I am a line merger. Okay. In what context?

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Where are we that you're merging?

SPEAKER_05 4:17

Bars and yeah, usually bars. If I know someone up front and there's a massive line, I am cutting up with my friend who's in front. I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

I agree. Well, that that's a little different. I think that's different from straight up.

SPEAKER_05 4:32

But I'm also sometimes bringing a group of five with me.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah, that's the kind of uh knowing, but I can cut that I can reconfigure from it.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Yeah. I know, but I'll I'll still stay behind because I have so much anxiety about someone calling me.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Yeah, we'll be like, you go. I'm gonna be there in a minute. It's better if we just all go at once. I'm the person that James calls you up.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Yeah, James gets anxiety flying with me sometimes because I always board in group one, no matter what. Oh, I you just have to walk on with confidence and no one says anything, even if your ticket beeps because you're like the last group, just walk on with confidence. I just always pay extra to be in group one. Yeah, or group A, whatever it is. Like when they're boarding and they're like only group A. I always board with first class, even if I'm not.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

And you board with first class.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

I just walk on. You have the balls to board with first class when you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 5:23

I don't do first class, but I'll do a group that's savage.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

I'll do group two or three, but I am group one.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

No, you are not.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Yes, I did. I did it the other week for work.

SPEAKER_05 5:35

Did Kellen do it and you were?

SPEAKER_04 5:38

My friend did, and she has diamond status, so I just went with her. Okay, so you felt like you were with the professional. I was like, we're together.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Was probably like I actually didn't notice. Yeah, she's like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

These are all not true line cutting scenarios, though. I'm talking about somebody straight up cutting a line. That person has mental problems.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Yeah, that is like morally it's wrong. Not okay. No.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

I would never scenario in an ice cream shop, but sometimes if there's a group of just annoying boys in front of me in line at a bar, I but should be in front of them.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Remember when we went to Disney on ice and all those people cut the line in front of us, and I literally almost that was infuriating. Because we all had kids. We all had kids. I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

In those scenarios, what kind of example are you setting? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

That's valid. Or when you're in a really long traffic line to get off on an exit and someone drives all the way down and tries to cut the train. I do that. I do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I actually a dad move.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

That's just something you should do, honestly. Yeah. Toby does it. I think it depends how long the line is and how Kath and I met everyone. And how pressing your obligations are.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

No, no. It's horrible. This is, I think in that case, cutting the car line is like an adult pro Max move. It's just efficiency. Why would you not do it?

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Because then everyone's gonna do it, and then where are you? No, not everybody's gonna do it. I'm gonna be just a better person. Yes. Don't get me wrong, if I have to do what I will, I just feel bad. You won't.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Do you really feel bad?

SPEAKER_04 7:15

I don't feel bad for that. No, you don't. Yes, I do.

unknown 7:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

Even to the point where Claire and Kellen, my husband, have been like, Oh my god, you're doing that? You're breaking the rules. Like, what rule are you breaking?

SPEAKER_05 7:28

The rule was her ducking under the line. That's how much we're making fun of. Wait, Kat, are you more of a rule?

Rule Followers vs. Rule Benders

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Are you more of a rule follower than I am?

SPEAKER_05 7:38

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Are you sure about that?

SPEAKER_05 7:42

Megan is more in bending situations to get what she wants out of them. And I think that's a form of rule breaking. You are defaulting more to you're like, I don't know if we should do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah. Fair. So Kat's a more classic rule follower. Yes. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

I actually think that's a I'm a role bender. Wrong take. I don't like to break. I'm okay with bending.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yeah. I sometimes bend them. I sometimes bend him.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

There are some rules I take very seriously. Such as if you say you're gonna do something, like if you're gonna volunteer for something, you should just do it and show up and be on time. I can't handle people that aren't a rule.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Breaking a rule, that's being irresponsible.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

That's also just sticking to your word. Okay, fair. What's like a rule I feel strongly about following? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Anyway, I'm not as intense about it as mom, though. No, that's no one's learned as well. The ultimate rule follower.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

I know. Which is where I get it. I just rules are in place for guidance, but no one is gonna give you permission to do what's best for you, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:52

I that's what I was gonna say. Dad's my favorite thing is dad's wisdom that he passed on. He's he always says, ask for forgiveness, not permission, which is funny coming from him, but yeah, because he is he's a pretty big role follower.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

It's like last things, he has his things. I think I'm very similar to dad in that respect. Yeah, I have my things, but then there are other ones where I'm like, I'm gonna just ignore this. Like last week, when after Bell's thing, when we were trying to figure out dinner, and I was like, Oh, let's go to Wellesley Country Club or whatever, and mom was like, Everyone is wearing jeans, and I was like, She was like eye twitching, like literally twitching at the thought of like even entertaining. And I was like, I feel like we'll figure it out. We're short circuiting, she was short-circuiting, especially because the rest of them went home to change, and then her friend Mary was wearing like very nice jeans that you literally couldn't tell. And she was literally like, Okay, Mary, you need to go home and change.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

We're like, I think she's gonna be fine, she'll be all right, but she's and also it's what's the worst thing that happens is they come to you and they say, Hey, next time please don't wear jeans. Yeah, exactly. Love you, Cheryl. Love you, Cheryl.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Do you guys think I might need Botox in my neck? I saw you over there doing that.

SPEAKER_05 10:05

I'm not sure. Don't do that. No,

Bleph Update

SPEAKER_05 10:07

what? Oh, could we get a blinds? Could we get a bluff update?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Oh, yeah. It's looking so it's looking so much better.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

It's all pink and scarry up here, but you just look like you're wearing I actually was gonna ask if you were wearing eyeshadow. Pink eyeshadow? Yeah, I mean it's certainly an improvement from what it was before.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

But hopefully, let me just say you're we can see eyelid, and that is a really exciting step in the right direction. It is an exciting step.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

But so should I Botox might not?

SPEAKER_03 10:37

No, let's simmer. Let's simmer. No, no need to touch anything else on your face at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

I'm not against that, but that seems scary, sticking a needle in there.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

What's I just I don't think both?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

It's because you're looking at yourself on Zoom all day.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

But what are these lines right here?

SPEAKER_05 10:52

Are you mewing? What's mewing?

SPEAKER_03 10:55

What's mewing?

SPEAKER_05 10:56

Like, how do I explain it? Like, Megan does it.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Yeah, Megan did it.

SPEAKER_05 11:01

Like when you can we can we just did it. Can we talk about Megan's closed mouth?

SPEAKER_04 11:05

Can we talk about Megan's closed mouth smile in her Instagram post?

SPEAKER_05 11:08

I would actually like to bring something to the table. Megan, talk a little bit about the kind that you were serving in this Instagram photo. Okay. It was giving slick back stompers to the nines. Oh, oh, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Snipers' so mean, first of all.

SPEAKER_04 11:24

Let me just stompers on.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Wait, those are the shoes I wear all the time. I'm so short and they're comfortable platform shoes. She had her leather skirt and like the smise. Okay. I now have to give the full backstory, okay? Bitches. So you take a few inches off that bob recently? Yeah, I did. And it's extra cunty, so you better get rid of it.

SPEAKER_05 11:49

It's fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Umia clip that. Dear media clip that. Clip it. Two things. One, it was a theme, hence why I decided to go for something different, which is Leslie Bibb has a great slick back hair look. And so I wanted to try that. Meanwhile, I'm sorry, bitches. I got so many compliments on my hair last night on that night. And I don't think people were just like, hey, I'm not saying you look bad. I thought you look great. But I will tell you, so I wasn't gonna post that photo because I agree. I looked crazy compared to everyone else, like actually insane. But it was my friend's birthday, and everyone else in that photo looked really good. And I'm like, And that's why you posted selfish. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

You're really selfless. You were so you're such a giver.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Guys, I thought I literally showed it to James before. I was like, I know I look like absolutely insane here, but do I look like a total lunatic? Because I thought everyone was gonna do a no-tooth smile, and everyone for the big grin, and I just look like a psycho with my slick.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Who actually does no-tooth? I couldn't do a no-tooth smile if my life depended on my god, me either. But if Aaron did that, I'd be like, call the hospital, something's up.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

I wouldn't like could you imagine Aaron be like it's scary. Megan is sometimes primary. Emma and Megan are the primary people that can do it. Pursers. Emma has the lips for it. Megan has the tooth.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Claire, you are a no-teeth smiler.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Sometimes, not always. She's not 100% no-teeth. She's probably a mix. A little bit of a mix. I'm usually a big cat and I are gal.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

I miss the memo in that photo.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

I'm just so uncool. I'm not cool enough. Shut up, Claire.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Wait, quick question. What was the theme of this party? Thank you. It was Dimes Square Reeve Gauche. So I didn't know what Reeve Gauche meant. I'm confused.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

No one knows what Reeve Gauche means.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

What is that? Dimes Square is near Chinatown. Oh. Like downtown. But it's like a fashion term. It means the left bank of Paris, and i.e. like this style there being laid back, cool, but like very put together, but chic. So like down the sleeve. I got a I asked for a mood board because I didn't know what that meant. And I was like, I could really take this in a lot of different directions. Because if you look it up in Chat GBT, it says Bohemian.

SPEAKER_05 14:18

So I'm like, I will say Megan has conditioned me in such a way where I forget what it was. You had it, you've had so many events lately, and Megan threw this random theme at me. And I was like, Can you send me the mood board so I can look if I have anything? It's like I know that whatever event she's going to is gonna have a mood board. There's interest action.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

School 70s thing. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Guys, I'm going to a friend's birthday party on Saturday, and the theme is AI slop. Ooh. Which I'm literally yours.

SPEAKER_05 14:52

I'm sure you're the final boss for that. You should just wear a crown to it.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Nothing. No, but that's really funny. It's what is slop? It's AI is producing all this like slop. Think about all the things that you're seeing on the internet. It's not like a creative.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Like you're just gonna show up as a chick who's super face-tuned with like giant lips.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Is that what I have to I have to get creative? I don't really I haven't thought about how that could be transferred into like themes. Can't we?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

You know the wax standard 80s?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, the wax lips.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

You get the wax lips and like a crazy wig and like fake boobs.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

But how do you make AI slop chic? It's just chic. I feel like is it chic? I don't know. Slop's not chic. Sounds good. It's guys hosting it, so just look at Mrs.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

Bezos for Inspo. Lauren Sanchez. Lauren Sanchez. Miss Sanchez.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Chris is looking good.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

Yeah, she's looking good.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

I honestly am gonna tell you, she was the best looking person at the Mec, L. Her facelift is Chris Jenner.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Impeccable. I thought she looked good. No, I think she looks great. I love her. She looks great. All my found out Chris.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Chris. Amazing, sweetie.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

You're doing amazing, sweetie. Kat and I have been saying, I just don't want to do glam when we don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Guys, I've been thinking about that too because I will always want to do glam. Who is the Courtney who doesn't want to do glam? Because I'm definitely. Who do you think? Aaron.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Let's

The Kardashian Family Parallels

SPEAKER_04 16:26

just let's circle up on the Kardashians real quick. So they mirror our family actually pretty dang well. This is true. And nothing. Do we even go into this rabbit hole this time? Because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

First, in the sense that there are five girls and one boy. That's one boy.

SPEAKER_05 16:44

That's the primary effect. And then it's just the order of operations and the way that we should have done this in our birth order episode. But basically, the oldest is Courtney, who is very just I don't want to be involved in this drama, and I'm better than this, and I'm just gonna do my own thing. Which doesn't want to do one and Duke Lamb. Which is Aaron, not in the sense where Erin's not a team player, because she is, but Aaron's, I'm just not gonna do what I don't want to do, you know?

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Yeah, and she's a bit emotionless. Yes, that's not a bad thing necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

See, she's the one I identify with the least, but I do understand that the surface level is the exact very surface level. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:39

Courtney in her prime, I think, was very you Courtney has taken a different journey in life now. I think I really do ride for Courtney, though. I'm a Courtney apologist, which I know is not common.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Really? I've never heard that term. I wrote it. I love her. But Claire, expand on that. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_05 17:54

A Courtney apologist. Yeah, it means that everyone really was coming down on Courtney when that huge fight between her and Kim happened. So epic. Everyone was ganging up on Courtney, and I was like, you know what? So Courtney doesn't want to do glam. Sue her. I thought Kim and Chloe were being really mean, and I just think that they could have lessened up on Courtney a little bit. So I was Why wouldn't you want to do glam though?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I just it's shocking to me.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

Totally shocking to you, and that's why you're Kim, you know? So easy. Yeah, you are you are Kim. No one, no one is their character quite as much as Megan is Kim. Megan is Kim. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

You just are missing a sex tape, but other than that, we are like par for par there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

So par for par. It's really crazy.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

I will take that any day. I would love to build an empire. So make it.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Yeah, but that's not what it's about, right? It's just what do you it's the selfie stick and like bring back the loomie cases that remember those? Oh. OG, the ones that lit up. Oh my gosh. I had all the it was like a ring light. Megan has all the bot and always looking in every mirror. The Instagram story that she posted was a prime example. Very good. Yeah. Joey is self-discussion.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

So never again will I attempt to wear slick back hair in my stomach. No, you look great.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Just let us look at great. Yeah, girl.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

This is what sisters are for.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, Joey, yeah, Joey's makes sense. I don't know, but I like is Kat Chloe? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Or is Chloe's funny? Kathy. I ride for Chloe. I mean, I learned you're kind of a mix of Kim, not on the selfie stick thing, but like the business side of Kim. You're very much that.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

I actually don't even know their personalities because I've never watched that show. You're just depriving out of Keep. I know. I should. I should start from the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

They're all so different. Hilarious. And it's really funny. It's really funny. But Chloe, she's just the best. Honestly. I love her. From what I hear. I want to hang out with all of them, but right now, Kylie and Chloe are having a good time. A really good time. Kylie's also looking great.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Kylie just lives her friggin' life. Chloe just seems like someone you'd want to be friends with. She just seems really and she's a good boy shoulders. Like she'll cut a bitch if they come for her friend. You know what I love?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

That she's always with her mom. I just love that about her. She's besties with her mom. It's so cute.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

And she has a popcorn company.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

But Claire, are you Kendall?

unknown 20:30

Person.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I mean, obviously, in terms of flips, you are. But I mean, she's like the freaking skinny legs and big boobs. Obviously. It is true. It is true. You're the topic.

SPEAKER_04 20:39

Well, and you guys also suffer from anxiety a little bit. Oh, she's a very small thing.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

I know I was gonna say she does, but I do think that she does. The Emma's almost more Emma's like Kylie in the sense where she's very gen Z online and all that stuff. But then she's more Kendall in the sense where she's a little bit more reserved. Kendall's, I need to separate and take care of myself. I'm overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Kind of like you guys are a mix of the two. Yeah, you are, which makes sense because they're like off on their own, the youngest.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Again, even the split is the same, kind of, if you think yeah, it is. There's the gap, and then it's me and Emma.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

That's why it's so weird. That is weird.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Can we can we turn mom into a Chris to be your mom and jerk? It's too late. We're too old. I know. Actually, you guys have some hope.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

I'm almost 40. It's there's no hope. I should be your momager. Yeah, you'd be a great mama jerk. That could work. You would be. In order to be a mommager, you do have to be a little cringe.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Actually, speaking of that, there is a great

Climbing Cringe Mountain

SPEAKER_03 21:42

newsletter that I read by this guy, Ricky Van Veen, who's my friend's husband. And he just sends it to friends and talking about different topics each week. And he wrote a post a few weeks ago about the whole idea around cringe and your life. Is less exciting because you're not embracing the cringe. I thought it was a very interesting topic because I I've always struggled with embracing the cringe. But I feel like doing this podcast has forced us to definitely do that. He concludes that newsletter by saying one of the greatest arbitrages is having no shame, which I think is so true. And Aaron, I feel like you and I have talked about this more recently. If you live authentically and you're just, I don't give any fucks, a lot of good things can come to you because you're an opportunity generator in a lot of ways, because you're putting yourself out there all the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

I also think that one of the things that was said in the context of this newsletter was like being cringe is proof that you're experimenting and taking risks. And that's what resonates with me now more than ever. And it's I wish it was like a mantra that I lived by when I was younger, because I think I would have put myself out there a lot more than I did, and good things would have come of that. Whereas now, even in the context of doing this podcast, for example, there's a cringe factor here. Obviously, there's concern about other people passing judgment. But the minute you put it out into the world and you're like, as long as I'm not hurting anybody, I don't really care what others think because A, this is fun, B, I'm learning something, C, I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And D, I'm actually learning about ways I can improve on things that matter to me. Speaking how I present myself. So I do think it is just a shame that when we're younger, it's so much harder to have the level of self-assurance we start to possess as we get older. I think it ties back to the whole belief that the only way to achieve anything is by doing it and taking action. And I think a lot of people often never even get that far because they're really scared of putting themselves out there and of what the beginning looks like. Because very rarely does something start out perfect. I don't really know many instances of where that is the case, whether you're starting something, you're trying something new. I'm talking about starting a business, taking a tennis lesson, learning how to cook. I don't care what it is, but it's very rare that right out of the gate, you're gonna be amazing at it. And I think a lot of people really don't pursue interest or or dreams or hobbies or whatever because they're scared of being bad at stuff. And I think especially when you're young.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

They don't want to be talked about behind their back. They also don't want the group text on the side being like, what is she doing? Something like that. But I Aaron, I remember when you and Kelsey started Pepper, and I never knew you felt like this, but you're like the first few years, you're just thinking about how other people may be judging the situation or starting something completely really you felt that way?

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

That shocked me.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

That's shocking to me.

Starting a Company & Lessons from Failure

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Guys, come on.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

I think yes, it a hundred percent felt that way. We started that with very little experienced, no funding. We had no idea what we were doing, and we put a product out into the world that we weren't a hundred percent. I don't want to say we weren't a hundred percent behind because we knew the road that we wanted to go down, and we believed in that part of it, but it was not what we wanted it to be at the beginning. And I would say that that failure at first was very, very painful and hard, but it also has been incredibly it's been like a defining aspect of my character now. What Pepper's eight years old at this point, and we started it when I was around 30 or 31, I can't remember. But that has shaped me into who I am today because I'm not as much of a people pleaser as Megan is, but I certainly care what people think because I'm a human being and I am also a perfectionist. And so to put something out into the world that we did not feel 100% about was scary for a multitude of reasons. One of those things being like, hey, what are people saying about me? Do people think what I'm doing is a joke? And I know for a fact that people did. And I think just who are they?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Give me names.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

I don't even blame them. There were times where we were like, this is not going to happen. We're not, it's not gonna work. We're not gonna be able to figure this out. And I find a way to just block out the noise or use setbacks as motivation to figure something out, that experience everybody should have.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

I would classify that situation in my eyes, though, like from a business perspective, I would almost think of that more as like imposter syndrome. I would never think of that as cringe, like cringy to start a business.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Totally. But in the context of this whole, I think, newsletter and the article specifically, because I think in Ricky's piece, I like that he spins it out into something different that I think is more relevant to us millennials, versus this article, which was more focused on Gen Z and the fact that this is a generation that is embracing being cringe because they've been brought up in a world where everybody can see everything they do if they choose for that to happen, and they are at the mercy of everybody else's judgment. All the trolls can come and comment on what they're doing, good, bad, whatever. The way I interpreted that article was to say to climb cringe mountain is to put yourself out into the world. There's some specific influencer that coined this term because she had, I think it was like a cooking show that people called cringe. I can't remember the specifics, but she put something out into the world that was not perfect, that took time to be good. And that's how I'm tying it back to Pepper.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

You had to experiment in public. You would have experiments.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah, we had to experiment in public.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

He also he also says in the article, he's or in his newsletter, he says the price of admission for being really good at something is being publicly very bad at it at first. You're not gonna be gifted and perfect out the gate.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

And then also another piece of this is the concept of failure. It's not exactly the same as this cringe concept, but I think there are parallels here where it's like a lot of people don't want to do something because they don't want to look bad or because they don't want to fail. It's one and the same. And I think that failure in our case at the beginning was the thing that has made us good, that has made us successful. That's what I'd say to anybody who I talk to about starting a company, where if it doesn't work out in the beginning, in terms of you having immediate success, you just have to be able to move from one failure to the next and process the emotion of feeling like you're hitting a roadblock that you can't overcome and then find a way around it. I think that once you do that, you are like, I can do anything.

unknown 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

The big thing of what you're saying there is it's embracing the cringe and being like, I'm gonna be fearless and putting myself out there and iterating and experimenting in public, which founders have to do as they're building something, but also just having agency. I think part of accepting that you may have to be cringe at times is being like, I'm gonna create my own lot in life.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Everything you want is on the other side of fear, right? Again, but then it's something as simple as being like, okay, I'm like, I want to learn how to play tennis because a lot of my friends play tennis and I love the sport, but I never learned how to play, and I'm a bad athlete with horrible hand-eye coordination. And so I haven't even, which we all know, but I know I just catch you're always in my head just like making fun of me. Sorry. Yeah, it's okay, it's dessert, but I don't take it personally at all. Yeah, it'll make you better. But though the notion of even taking a tennis lesson, even a private lesson, I'm like, I don't want to do that because I don't want people to see me playing sports because I'm so bad at sports. I hope I'm there for it, honestly. I'll let you come. But I'm like, that's sad because I think if I really tried and applied myself, I wouldn't be amazing, but I could be passable to play with my friends. Of course.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

And I think I think embracing cringe is a form of taking initiative. It's just scarier because in some ways that can be more forward-facing or done publicly, which is scary for a lot of people. I feel like I've not gotten comfortable with that literally until this age, and still not comfortable.

SPEAKER_05 30:03

But Claire, I feel like you and I were talking about this a little bit as joint people pleasers and joint people pleasers, but also with I think the doing this podcast, especially, I was definitely the one dragging my feet the most about this. Not because I didn't want to do it or wasn't excited about it or didn't have fun because I I have so much fun doing this, but mentally getting over the hump of putting this out into the world at the world, putting it on Instagram literally gave me our world stage, our world stage. It just gave me panic. When Megan posted this to him, I had a panic. I because it's like that I really felt seen in the newsletter because he references a term or article called this, I think it's called the spotlight effect. Yeah. Where it's like your sense of self is you are so solely focused on yourself because you are the center of your life, that you think that other people are looking at you the same way. And in reality, you're completely over-exaggerating how other people are even thinking about you because they're

The Spotlight Effect

SPEAKER_05 31:22

most likely. They just they just don't care, and they're also not paying attention in the way that you're paying attention to yourself. So I think that's my biggest issue. And my therapist actually tells me this all the time. She's like, what is the worst thing that can happen to you if someone reacts negatively to something that you do? And it's at the end of the day, it's not that deep. I think I am just that's the people pleaser in me where it's like, I don't like having putting bad energy out into the world, and I don't want people to be mad at me or something and talking.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

But this isn't putting bad energy into the world. This is you just being afraid of other people's judgment, which is a human and normal thing to feel.

SPEAKER_05 32:06

Right. I guess not bad energy doing something controversial, maybe. Which not even that this is that, but it's it's cringe.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

I actually I agree. I do care a lot about what people think, but I do think that's actually such a good coping mechanism when you're in a spiral, and I don't know whether it's like in a business meeting and you felt like you said something stupid, or you're with friends, and you're like exactly you're meeting someone new and you say something, you're like, Why did I just say that? I'll sometimes sit in my head and be like, You're literally selfish. No one is thinking about what you just said, no one cares that much. And then I'm like, okay, yes, no one really is paying attention. Everyone is paying way more attention to themselves than they're paying attention to you. So I do feel like telling myself that has actually been a good way to get through the inner dialogue.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

The analogy that they use is that if you're seasick on a boat, your entire perspective is completely warped and shifted. But to anyone else who's on the horizon or watching you from land, you just look like someone throwing up over the side of the boat. It's two completely different things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

And I I think And you might get judged for a second because that's gross, but then I'll forget about it.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

But it it is true. I think it's fleeting, and the worst part was waiting for the first person to say something to me about it.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:29

And then it was like really positive. And it's not a lot of people are going to outwardly be an asshole to your face. And if they are, no, they'll be out.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

I'd respect it more, frankly.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

I agree.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

I would rather someone say to my face it's harder, but it's like people are definitely outwardly an asshole behind your back for sure.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

Oh, that's not that's being a behind your back.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Well, there's guys, it's easier to be a critic than it is to be a cheerleader. Okay. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

You're gonna, I would for any of my actual friends, like I would want you to give me feedback or tell me if I'm being cringe to your face, but there's a way to do it in like a loving, a loving way and constructive criticism, constructive criticism versus being like, You're such a condescender. Why would you do that? Then that that's not a friend, that's an asshole.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Yeah, and I think our cousin Charlotte just knows me so well and sent me a voice memo on the first day that we're so good at voice memos.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Oh my god, what did she say?

SPEAKER_05 34:23

What did she say? What did she say?

SPEAKER_04 34:25

She loved it.

SPEAKER_05 34:26

I wanted a voice memo, Charlotte. No, she has a sixth sense. She was like, I just wanted to let you know. I think this is fabulous. And I Megan and I had just talked, and I was crying. I had been crying.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

She was having a crash out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

My crash out full blackouts. I have to come up for air, and then I'm fine. But Charlotte literally had the sixth sense and sent me this really kind voice memo. And I told her, I was like, oh my God, I really need to hear that. I was freaking out. And she was like, Oh my God, step into my office. I can't wait to talk about this. And she said, she was like, I think ultimately this is going to be a really good exercise for you in life to really practice not caring what other people think about you.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Again, being cringe is experimenting and taking risks. You will only learn something from this. Exactly. It's also quite liberating. It is to not care.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

And I feel like we talked about this. If someone confronts you with something cringy you did, and you're like, Yeah, and you own it. You're taking back the power from them to criticize you. And when they're like, oh wait, they're not ashamed of that. I have no power over them or I have no hold over them.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

So then it just goes away. You know what? My mantra is as I get older, act with dignity and you will never feel shame. Don't be mean, don't tear other people down. Have the best intentions. Like, even if you act a certain way and people interpret it negatively, if your intention was good, then you shouldn't feel shame. I'm not saying you can't apologize if somebody's upset, but if you feel good with the way you conduct yourself, you should never feel ashamed of anything. And I think that is the key to getting through life. Because you're always gonna have word vomit, you're always gonna have an embarrassing moment, you're always gonna do something that you wish you could undo. But as long as nobody's really getting hurt, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

That is to

Troll Culture

SPEAKER_04 36:21

me the antithesis of the trolling ecosystem online. If you are a stranger commenting on someone else's posts and it's a post completely harmless, and they're just doing their thing, putting themselves out there, and you're making a really nasty comment, like that. I really don't understand. You should see you guys don't even know. I really don't get it, which is why I God hope I really don't think I have anything out there like this. But I've never commented on a stranger's post unless it's a positive thing, except for when someone tried to say that Justin Bieber's Coachella set wasn't good, then I clapped back because that was necessary. But I wasn't mean, I just was like, this is a wrong opinion. Wrong take. You're wrong.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

I do troll Bethany Frankel sometimes, but in a very tasteful, not mean way. Not in an I love Bethany. There's no I love Bethany, but when she like I love chicken salad. When she tried to take me and tuck it down, I was like, wrong take, sis. Yeah, that was oh yeah, that that was a that was tasteful.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

You just said wrong taste, sis. Yeah, that's that I wouldn't even consider that trolling.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Yeah, that's more of like disagreeing, a respectful disagreement.

SPEAKER_05 37:30

I troll people who troll our other cousin. Yeah, our cousin, who's a stunning, talented makeup artist. Totally. Who cat said posting just she's literally just posting herself doing makeup? The way that people comment on these videos sometimes, I will either comment back at those people or I will go to their profile and I report their profile.

unknown 37:57

Good.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

And that's not but the That is not trolling, that is defending.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Yeah, you are like a knight in shining armor.

SPEAKER_04 38:06

You are her coming to her honor. And I hope those people feel ashamed when they do that. You know what? When I see these trolls and they're deeply unhappy.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

Are you not only are you deeply unhappy, but do you have any moral compass? What inside of you is let me know.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Guys, they're probably like sitting in a basement. Can't we all just be happy? The world is already dark enough as it is. No, a lot of people are unhappy, and it's really easy to be cruel if you're anonymous and it's happening from behind a screen.

unknown 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:36

This comes back to me being a Courtney Kardashian apologist. Guys, give her a break. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

I I agree. I agree. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Don't come for her.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

She just treat people generously.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

I can't do it. No, it's not that. It's just, and this is what confuses me about the Kardashians because I think the show itself finds a lot of obviously a lot of success from playing up the dynamics. It is a reality show, you guys. But like they really harp on the Courtney versus Kim and the Courtney versus Chloe and making her the villain. Interesting. So it is this. Oh, yeah. So it is hard to kind of take a step back from it, and they'll especially play up clips where she says some nasty things to her sisters. Like, why would you ever get black covers for your furniture? Furniture is so ugly. Is that disgusting? And I'm just like, that's so mean. No, it's so mean, but then it's a derivatives.

SPEAKER_05 39:36

But then Kim looks at her and says, You're the least interesting to look at. That is mean.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

But then on the outside, that's mean when they're talking about it, though. That's a sister fight. I wouldn't be mean.

SPEAKER_05 39:47

I would never say that. That you're uninteresting to look at. That's a good idea. No, that was like a cut. That was I'm sorry, that was scripted.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

That was scripted for sure. I don't think I mean on the outside, Kim is always saying, We're best friends. I'm the Courtney is one of my closest sisters.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Listen, I think they are extremely smart. I think in any show, like you need to have drama, so a lot of it has to be manufactured. But I remember them saying it. They're like, sure, let people believe what if you really want to know, come inside our family chat and we'll actually see what the dynamic is. So I think they're frankly like genius because it's giving things for people to be interested in, but it's probably not fun to be on like the negative side of that and have like it'd be fun to have a reality show and fake fight with each other.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Don't they get in physical fights?

SPEAKER_03 40:34

That was a real fight. That was a real fight.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

They drew blood.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

Are you sure? Dude, watch it.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Aaron, it was like the fight.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Was it with the cat or with Aaron that we got the slapping? No, Megan gave me a bloody nose in a car, bitch. That was short. That was short, but she hit me in the face and drew blood. And Toby had to pull the car over on the side of the road.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Were you guys drunk? I couldn't remember. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Maybe a little.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Okay, at least you were drunk. Wasn't this in daylight in a closet or something?

SPEAKER_05 41:00

You should see the way Emma and I have dissected thrown down, like really viciously. Really?

SPEAKER_04 41:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:07

Like full hair pulling. Like it's really

Sister Fight Club

SPEAKER_05 41:11

bad.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

I've only ever gotten into a physical fight with Megan.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Megan, I think we got in a physical fight one time in high school.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

In the laundry room. You remember like you tapped my face a little bit, like just kind of joking around, and then I like full sleep doing your glasses on. And I think Aaron picked me up and like body slammed me to the ground.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Megan, that's your fight style. Yeah, you're you're annoying and annoying. Someone gives an inch and you take a motherfucking thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

No, no, I take it to an unnecessarily an unnecessary intensity.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah. There's actually not as much physical fighting. I think I got in a physical fight with Joey once. You kicked him in the balls. That was kind of fucked.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Yeah. Yeah. You probably deserved it. I think you punched him in the face one time, too. The balls.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Really? Oh, and wait, how old were we? I remember this vividly.

SPEAKER_05 42:01

I remember it was a hard slap.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:05

A hard fucking slap.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

He was in high school, I think. Oh, I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

No, and then don't you remember Taylor stepped in when we were when you were a senior in college? Because Joey called us a gave him a good one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

And then I thank you, Taylor. I gave verbal flash dressing down. Yeah. He was such a little shit that we did.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

Yeah, I think I think I've only physically fought with Emma. I think that's really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

So everybody's done a little physical fighting. It's healthy. It's bound to happen in a totally gone too much. Come on.

unknown 42:41

And actually.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

I was shocked it didn't happen more.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

I'm happy that Kat and I never came to physical blows because I think that would have gotten really good. It could have been real.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Honestly, I don't know who would win that fight. I don't know who would win that fight. It's a toss-up. Claire's a little string bean. I think I might snap her.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

Dude, we do the same workout class.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

I lift heavier than you do, my sweet girl. Oh, sorry. Instead of a one-pound weight, you lift a four-pound weight? Um, no, Aaron, we lift 25 bitches. What workout class were you at? No, with Kath. We were with Kath.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Yeah.

unknown 43:13

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

I'm much heavier than Claire, which is fine. Not these days.

SPEAKER_05 43:19

Yeah. I think I'm a bit of a scrappier fighter.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I could see you fighting dirty. I could see you fighting dirty for total. For sure. But I would just Kat's gonna do karate because she's I will follow the rules and fight karate.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Fun fact did karate as a kid, got to an orange advanced spell. No big deal. Okay. I think it goes like white, yellow, orange.

SPEAKER_05 43:44

We wouldn't know if Kat was like a ty like a master in karate. You never know.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

I snapped a piece of wood in half, so that was cool. Yeah, you could like, I don't know. Since none of us care about being cringe anymore, you could go back and do adult karate, see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Wait, Claire, do you think that you will be in other ways in life be more comfortable embracing the cringe?

SPEAKER_05 44:13

Like, I hope.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

No, no, I asked that because you and I had talked about, you were like, I'm a person who cares what other people think.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

And at 28, I very much felt the same way. And I still feel it now, but to a very different degree just because of age and life experience and everything else. But I'm I'm curious, if I started doing things like this where I was just putting myself out there more at a young age, would it help wear down the scariness factor?

SPEAKER_05 44:43

I'm sure it would. I think also a lot of it has to come from in my mind, a lot of it comes from your sense of I don't want to say security, but you guys are farther established in your lives, I think was part of it. Where taking a risk, I know it now sounds so silly, but in hindsight, it did when we were talking about doing this feel like more of kind of a risk for me. I don't know why. But you guys were married and had kids, you had your partners who had to support you. And we first started talking about it. I was still single, so I was like, I can't be date a girl with a fucking podcast. Exactly. I was like, I can't be shooting myself in the foot, it's already slim power.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Well, it took us a year to get here. It was a very slow climb to the base of cringe mountain.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

A lot of just recentering and taking myself out of the realizing things. I just think 2023 is just the year of realizing things. Yeah, Kylie, her new year's resolution. Realizing things. It's the year of realizing things. And what was her one this year?

SPEAKER_04 45:55

It was like the year of doing things. I'm like, you know, you go girl. She's my fucking idol. I love her so much.

SPEAKER_05 46:03

She's not a good thing. You know, I can't even get on this topic because she's dating my man. And I threw.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

But she is really she's a really good example too of some loving a rat. She just lives her life so authentically and happily that you're like, oh my god, your energy is amazing, and I want that. Like very positive energy. I want to live so purely that I don't care what people think, and I'm just giving out all this positive energy. It's very, and I think that that is what's so endearing about. I think there are very much different levels and varying degrees of cringiness. I think there are genuinely cringy people that I'm like, oh my god. There's a bad version. There's a bad version. There's a bad and a good version of cringe. But I think in the good version of cringe, it is someone who is just being their authentic selves and being so genuine. And there's something very endearing about that. It's about being sincere in earnest.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

The last thing that Ricky says in that newsletter is he's cringe is about making your inner and outer self mirror or match each other, having there be no gap between those two things. And I think it goes that's the same thing as being sincere and genuine. To me, being cringe, I think some people could interpret somebody who's willing to be vulnerable as being cringe because I think we very much, especially, I think on the East Coast, live in this world of, don't talk about your problems, pretend everything is okay, always put on a happy face. Don't say, you know what really stuck with me in Belle's book was when people would ask her how she was doing, and she would say, actually, I'm devastated. My husband has left me. And how many people were like, I don't know how to respond to this because the expectation was like, just say everything's great, and I'm gonna bury it so I can make sure you, the other person who's not going through this, feels comfortable. People could categorize that as cringe. I'm not saying I believe it, but I think we live in a society where a lot of people expect you to just when somebody asks you how you are, to never say anything other than I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

I bet in that moment for certain people, like maybe if they weren't her best friends, or like maybe they're the neighborhood gossips or something.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Her disarming them with her honesty is again takes away the power from that person. So it's like she's so honest with them, they're like, oh shit, I feel terrible and I empathize with you. I'm not gonna go talk behind your back. Like the tune changes when you take that power away from someone.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

I also think that's why this book has resonated so much with people, not only because of the story, but also her whole approach to the way in which she laid everything out there and did so in such an authentic manner that all you can do is have respect for her. Because that is such a hard thing to do, and she did it so eloquently. And again, it's a big inspiration just to be like, life is short, take the leap, put yourself out there, and I think the universe will reward you.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

I also think we had a conversation recently about adult friendships and how it can be hard to cultivate those. And I think one of the reasons why it is hard is because again, we live in this world where everybody wants to maintain appearances, and I understand why we're all not guilty, but we all I think fall prey to wanting to do that. But I have a very hard time getting close to people that can't be vulnerable. I can't stand people that are like, everything's fine. I'm great, everything is fine. I'm like, I know something's not fine. And it's not that they have to tell me what's going on, but I think it's okay and refreshing when somebody's, you know what? I'm stressed the fuck out right now, or I'm going through it, or whatever it is. It's it's just sad that people can't have that dialogue with one another because there are lots of social constructs in place that I think pressure us all to maintain appearances at all times.

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Yeah, that's the whole point of friendship, too, is human connection

Vulnerability & Adult Friendships

SPEAKER_04 49:56

and what creates human connection is vulnerability.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

Yeah, and I think a lot of people's gut reactions is they're like, oh my god, I could never put myself out there in that way. I could never imagine myself doing that. Because of that, I feel like people lack having genuine connections with people. It's like it lacks the sincerity. And I think if we all again cringe, can be very cringe sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

But going back to what I said before, it's not only something that prevents you from having a relationship that could be amazing, like it's a whole concept of like, I don't know if you guys care about this, but you meet somebody and it's who's gonna follow who on Instagram first.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Whether I'm not even talking about like men versus women, I'm talking you meet a new friend in town. Who's gonna be the person that takes the leap and shows that like level of initiative? I'm not saying that's a cringe action, but there's one person that's willing to take a step before the other person.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

It's like swallowing your pride is an aspect of a lot of this, I think.

SPEAKER_04 50:53

Well, it's that example I don't find cringe, but let's just say that is an example. Like I think people doing that, I'm like, oh, you're confident and you're cool. There's someone I want to be friends with. Exactly. Because you don't care.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

They're decisive and they're like, hey, I like you, and I'm gonna do that. Again, the Instagram thing's a silly example, but I've gone through a lot of this in the last five years, moving to a new town, making adult relationships, whatever, where it's like there's one person that has to take the initiative first to say, Hey, let's all get dinner. You know what I mean? And yeah, I really value people that do that. Totally. It's really nice because otherwise you're gonna circle each other forever and never actually get to know one another.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

That is such a good point. And I feel like that is a another key thing you go through when you're going through the early to late 20s into early 30s adult friendship phase. Yeah. And I feel like I personally struggled with this where you make yourself the victim in the sense where if someone's not reaching out to you to make plans, you're like, they don't want to hang out with me, they don't like me. And there's something I think one day I was like, okay, it takes two to tango, there's two people in a relationship. So I'm gonna start taking more initiative. And there's something very empowering about doing that. And also, I love friends that do that.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

It's just it's a great quality, it's such a good quality. I think developing embracing the cringe is a skill set that you need to practice. But to what you were saying, Kat, about friendships, it's like a level of agency, like anything in life, like you have to assert yourself, take initiative, make things happen for yourself versus just waiting for them to happen to you. Because if you're doing that, like you're not in control of the situation. More things will happen to you if you take the leap in some form, whether it's big or small, you trying to do it. Texting a net new friend. And I think it's something that we have to force each other to do more.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

It's almost like the opposite. As you get older, if you're still thinking about those things, I'm like, that's a little cringe that you're still caring about something like that.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

But I think people get in their head more towards my age versus even like when you were 30. There's a weird reversion to high school. You'll see one day for yourself. It's weird. There's a reason why a midlife crisis occurs. Truly. Yeah. And I think it it can feel like high school again in a way that it didn't.

SPEAKER_05 53:19

Well, I was I was gonna say, I feel I would imagine, I obviously don't know, but thinking about it in the high school sense of it, you never want to be the person that's polarizing and rocking the boat. And I feel like high school is when it's the most sensitive. Where if someone rocks the boat, it's can you believe she did that? Yeah. Where now I'm at this age in my life when someone says shit like that to me. Any gossip that's not in the BAU accepted circle of like gossip or venting with your friends, business as usual, business as usual, like nasty gossip where it's somebody like, can you believe that she's like you're just being nasty? I'm just like, that's gross, and I actually don't want to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_04 54:00

Yeah, that's negative energy, negative energy energy, get that negative energy, and those people are really scared of cringe things, they're also probably just mean, but they are trying to cringe proof their life.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Listen, whenever anybody, especially as you get older, because I think when you're young in high school, like you're just you don't have a fully formed brain, so we can excuse some of that behavior, but we're all old enough. Where if anybody's acting that way, and I've been guilty of gossiping and being nasty, I think frankly, a lot of people have. But when I've done that, that has come up from a place largely tied to my own insecurities. Oh, yeah. It has nothing to do, very little to do with the other person. And I think as you get older, you're right. There's a difference between venting and gossiping, as you just said. And I think when you choose to gossip in a mean way about someone you don't know at all, I think there are like true and scary ramifications for that because you're like, what if there are families involved? I'm at an age where people are getting divorced, and there are things around that. And you have to be very mindful of what you say to other people because what if that gets around? I would never ever want to be the root cause of some kind of gossip that'll spread through my town. And I just think I agree with you that these days, people that really like to talk shit, and again, we all like to talk shit a little bit, but it's when it's their entire personality, it's a huge red flag.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Well, there's a there's a spectrum, it's also it's about energy and intention. And sometimes it's fun to have a little banter inventive. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

But like it's when you get to the really nasty side of gossip that's I think there's such a thing as harmless gossip. I drew I truly do. Yeah, and then there is there's dangerous gossip too. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

One hundred pee.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

One hundo pee.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

Moral of the story is Don't be a dick. We don't be a dick, and we are climbing that mountain, y'all. We're and we'd lack your support while we climb that mountain.

SPEAKER_05 55:57

Yes, we will.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

Okay, y'all, we're wearing harnesses, and we're not gonna fall.

SPEAKER_05 56:04

I'm actually not harnessed. We are disseminating that peak.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

I'm actually like that guy who like does it hands free solo.

SPEAKER_03 56:12

Claire, I'm so curious if you've reached the level of cringe acceptance if you're gonna repost a video on your personal Instagram. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

I will I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 56:24

I think it's like Kat is harness in and then she has me in a bjorn on her back. You're in my like I'm my kangaroo.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

That is unsafe. That is not a secure enough contraption.

SPEAKER_05 56:36

Kat's kind of ascending before me, but I'm right behind her.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

And on that note,

TBLs: Trying, Buying, Loving

SPEAKER_04 56:41

should we talk about our TBA's? Now I'm in the Southern. I know. I love when you're Southern cat. It's not 30.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

I've entered the southern state of mind. Yeah, cat, you haven't brought out the southern accent in a in a minute. Really good time.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

You're really when I'm usually you're gifted and talented. She isn't talented.

SPEAKER_04 57:02

No, when when the high school friends get together, we're like, God, we're so annoying because we can't help but speak to each other in Southern.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

You're definitely like the group of girls that would go on a trip together and wear like denim shirts and the wigs. Have you seen those trips at all? Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Like it does seem fun, but it's very fit for your friends.

SPEAKER_04 57:19

Are you kidding me? But you know what bachelorette trip I would have died to go on? They all dressed up as Guy Fury. Guy Fury.

SPEAKER_05 57:25

Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that. I would agree. I knew you would be able to say that.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

Give me a pixie wig and a backwards visor, and let's go to the bar.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

See, cat's like that, but then there's the part of I'm different in the sense where I really want to go to like Harry Potter World, like, or like this, there's this Renaissance fair that looks so compelling.

SPEAKER_04 57:46

That'd be sweet.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

See, cat gets it. It's like walk around with a chicken bone, like you mean like chicken drum King Richards Fair or whatever in New Jersey where you dress like a fairy, you know, like Comic-Con.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Comic-Con.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

I'm more into the Harry Potter world. I would go to Bravo Con.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

That's all right, Kat, what are your TBLs this week?

SPEAKER_04 58:09

I actually I'm having a Claire moment. I really looked at my credit card bill and was aghast. So I'm trying to not do much. Trying to not do buying. No buying. I'm trying not to do the buying. I am trying to embrace the hobbies that I've tried to the hobbies that I tried to start. I don't want to take on too much. So like needle pointing, I'm just I'm trying to focus my energy on that.

SPEAKER_05 58:38

And like this, my freaking book. So I get book name and Theo of Golden.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Oh. Oh, Theo of Golden. Okay. It is really good. Again, if you want to feel just warm and fuzzy inside, I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

I need that right now. It's really so great. And the needle pointing is a bit frustrating at the moment. It's just, I think I stared at the same stitch for 30 minutes yesterday, and I was like, I cannot figure this out. I almost called Charlotte, but I'm really trying to just figure it out on my own. So that's me. That's nice. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Megan. Trying. I would say. Oh, I saw this recommended in someone's subsack, but I love pattern in CoStar. Have you guys ever used those astrology?

SPEAKER_05 59:30

I mean, Megan, I Aaron, so I don't know if you know that you are on the app, but I always we're friends, and I always like to meagles too, but I always like to check our compatibility. Our compatibility for the day. And Aaron's is always very interesting. What is it? We're not compatible. No, no, it's always fun. It's like Aaron's going through this today.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

Okay, so I love pattern and co-star, but I recently heard about Astrobella and the user interface is very good. And yeah, astrology is really just like the weather. It's not gonna tell you the future, but it's gonna tell you what's happening around you so you can decide if you need to pack a raincoat or not. So I'm beautiful. Did you workshop that before you uh Kevin actually, Kevin, when I was we've done some astrology work and he I was like, what should I how much weight should I put in this? Because I it's it's kind of bullshit. And he's like, No, it's not predicting the future, but it's like the weather. You know what's happening around you, so you can plan accordingly.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:31

Like I really like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Love that okay. So that is what I'm trying, right? Whatever, yeah. Or yeah. I think I was trying. Was it trying? Okay, great. Buying. I saw someone at a work event wearing these amazing pants, and they were by Spanx. I was shook. Oh, wow. So I I was shook with, but they were so flattering and they were they're a stretchy material, but it they didn't look stretchy. As someone looking at them, they look like true business pants. So I bought those, so I'm excited to wear those. And then loving, I am loving. I don't know if you guys have heard of negative brand. I'm on a quest for really cozy pajamas, and I got their whipped henley top.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:22

Oh, wait, sorry, I'm wearing their pants right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:24

Are you? Oh they're sheer so comfy.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

I think I have that top.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

It's so comfortable, and also like wearing their whipped pants. The top is a little bit sheer. Sheer is just a little sexy. Yeah, I have that. So you can be cozy, but also a little like.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

See, I'm not trying to be sexy at nighttime. I'm trying to be you can't really wear that with comfy. No, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:45

I'm never trying to be sexy at nighttime, but like also James is like, could you maybe not wear like your sweatpants that are like 30 years old and chewed by somebody by a dogpand and haven't been washed years old. Oh my god, that is those are from high school. That's insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

They're from high school.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

I can't believe you're wearing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

I mean, that is a testament to the quality of Lululemon. Let me just say, anyone continue.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

Well, it's forever chemicals. All right, Aaron, what are your TBLs?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

I'm loving this new barn coat I got for Mother's Day. Is that the one you were wearing? Yeah, it's very simple, but I really love it. I've already I've owned it for three days and I've already stained it. So obviously it's on brand.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:25

And you definitely didn't protect it in any way. No, of course not.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Trying buying. I just, I'm just gonna be super materialistic. I also just got this Totem, another Totem bag that is it's woven. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

And then the kind of resort collection. Yeah, love. Let's just let's be clear. Toby, the non-gift giver, actually got you a gift for Mother's Day. I gave him three gifts and he bought me. So what? What did you think? What's happening? What's happening?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

He didn't even consult me. He didn't even listen to. I was very simple. I said, here are three things I want to buy. The three of them together culminate as to be less than the piece of jewelry that I want. So I highly recommend that you buy me all three things. And he followed through. Wow. This never happens.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:16

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

What were the other things? And then I got this Totem tote bag, which has not yet arrived. Toby is really making up a lot. Yeah, he has a lot of making up to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:28

Yeah, he has a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

Okay, so I know I sound super materialistic this week, but you know it's a good thing. But it's okay. You deserve it. You deserve it. You deserve to be showered.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:39

Celebrate nice things.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

And I don't know that that I those are really two buying things. In terms of trying, I have nothing really interesting to say, so I'm not even gonna pretend to say it. And then in terms of loving, I did start watching the off-campus series. Obviously, we have to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:55

It is after this, so like let's wrap it up.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Happy for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

Yeah, let's try it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Aaron, I know what you're trying. You're trying not to have RBF. I know I was gonna say that. I was saying, but I'm not trying that hard because the trying started 45 minutes ago. You know what I mean? Well, work on it. Okay. Listen, it is a constant issue in my life. I have a resting bitch face, and it's because my face, my mouth is not symmetrical and goes like this. It's not my fault. I don't think that's the issue, but yes. Okay, well it's genetics' fault. It is no, literally, it is genetics. It's genetics' fault. It is genetics. I'll try to smile more. Anyway, back to off campus. I started it. I love it. And I thought I was gonna hate it, and I then decided that the guy that plays Garrett Graham is the hottest man alive. And so I'm gonna watch the whole thing. What? That is such a reversal. That's what I said. He has got the riz. I'm like, I want you to be my boyfriend in real life. Wait, what? Aaron was like, he's ugly. And then I was like, no, he's not.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:51

He look at his Instagram page. He is perfect. Yeah, and he's got a nice body.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

He's got an ugly body, great butt. I said, I need to watch this tonight.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

I'm gonna be up until one in the morning. No, Dean. Megan, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

No, no, don't even start. You will do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:06

You're like sick, you need to go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Yeah, you had a cough.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

You're like a your child. Okay, I'm very excited to watch it. So everybody go watch that. But Claire, have you Claire? Claire, you haven't gone.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:18

No. My trying this week is I'm trying to not buy those joyride candies that Kat and I love.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

I curse you for getting me on those, you stupid lady.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

They're so no, I don't even want to have them. They're so good. They're so good.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:35

They're so cheap. You can buy a six value pack from Amazon. And I bought the six. Yeah. But I have overly ripe bananas and I'm trying to eat healthier dessert. So I've been making those banana bites that mom makes. But the date are banana bites. The dates are even better.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:52

I need to do the dates. Quickly describe what are the banana bites.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

Oh mom has these this mini silicone muffin pan and Slices banana does a little peanut butter and then melts chocolate. You can do dark chocolate, whatever kind of chocolate you like.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:06

Add a little coconut oil with your chocolate. Yes, you do need to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

Do the melting process correctly. I did do that. And then I sprinkled a little flaky salt on the salt. Really key, which I don't think mom always does. No. But it's really delightful, and you can get a little creative with it. If you want to add a date, then it's kind of like snicker-doodle snickers for it. Uh such a good snack, though. Such a good snack. For my buying, it's more so something I'm considering buying. So I have the Mocha Master that I love. I love it. But I'm just in this weird phase where I keep getting my portions off. And Andrew has in his apartment an espresso, has a really nice espresso machine. You can have mine.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:50

I never use my espresso machine. Do you have an espresso machine? Yeah, you can have it. Oh my god, I was gonna buy one. No, you can't.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:55

Okay, give it to me on trial, maybe. Does your yours have a frother?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:59

Oh, yes, it has a milk frother.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:01

Okay, I might need it. Because I've been buying now coffees because I've been wanting these iced shaken espresso.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

Ooh.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

And they're so good. It's the closest I felt to taking Adderall since going off of Adderall is drinking a shaken espresso. So I really recommend it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Why is the shaking part make a difference?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:20

It it almost makes it like an iced coffee. Like you can just have iced espresso, but they like shake it up and you can put a flavor in there if you want. Okay. It's really, really delightful. Okay. So I'm gonna circle back with you uh on that. And then for my loving, I just saw this, but Hilary Duff is on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She looks so good. She's and I really love that for her, and I just think everything she's doing right now is so great, and she's just so fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

I think she's really I thought she looked amazing.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:52

Talk about having her resource climbing cringe mountain. Not that I'm saying anything that she does is cringe, but I think it's harder to after taking such a break from clearly back out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:04

No, but also it is part of it, is like her so clearly embracing the cringe. Like when she on her tour remade the with love dance, and it's like I was like, Oh god, I love that dance.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:18

Yeah, and also like she's playing into the nostalgia, she's very smart, she knows what the people want.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:23

I also just really love the way she presents herself and her energy, and I just saw the cover and I was like, This is so fabulous. Yeah, she's and I love whoever at Sports Illustrated thought to recognize you're Team Hillary, not Team Ashley.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:38

Ashley Tisdale Frenchdale, yeah. Sharpay, F Sharpay. Remember the whole mom drama? She wrote that hot piece, and it was like I'm team. Friend group is mean, and Hillary Duff.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:51

I didn't really buy into meaning that, but I didn't either, but if I'm gonna check it out, but I'll separate the art from the artist here totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

I like that phrase. Yes, never heard that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:03

She came up with it on her own.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

It's a good way.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

You're a genius, Claire.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:09

Yeah, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you girls. It's always a pleasure. A pressure and a privilege.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

A pressure and a privilege.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:19

And I'm not on that back. It's totally time to wrap it up. Totally, Kyle. Love y'all. Love y'all. Love ya.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

Bye.