Why Group? (Especially for Therapists)

In this episode, we prepare for an experiential webinar we were planning to offer to Asheville therapists and then never did, due to lack of sufficient interest, even though the webinar was free. But at least we got a podcast episode out of it! We explore how being a member of an ongoing process group is beneficial for therapists and also outline some of the theory informing process-group leadership, as well as the techniques that we find especially exciting.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

You are listening to the Present Moment Process Podcast, the official podcast of the Asheville Group Psychotherapy Society, with your hosts Chris Byrne and Sarah Stepson.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Okay, so why should therapists be in a process group? Well, the first thing that comes up for me is therapists are used to being in the helper role, and they're used to asking questions and listening, which is not often a terribly vulnerable place to be in. So group gives you practice at being more of the vulnerable one.

SPEAKER_05 1:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Thereby making you a more well-rounded, integrated human being.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yes. I could see somebody saying, well, you know, uh, I practice vulnerability, I experience being the vulnerable one when I'm in my my individual therapy. But I think that that is a different type of vulnerability because the being in a group member, it's like you're being vulnerable in a dynamic setting with other people. It's not just like with a therapist and you're interacting with other people and experiencing emotions towards those people, and so yeah, it's like enhanced vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah. Next level.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Which, yeah, I I like how um Catherine Barnhill, who is the group I used to be in one of her groups, um, she says like that it expands your capacity to be with a range of emotional experiences and you know, have all sorts of different thoughts, feelings, reactions within yourself and towards other people, which then allows you to have you know a greater capacity for a range of emotional experiences, which then can help to expand your creativity and attunement and presence with clients, which I think that is true. Yes, because so many different things can come up when you're with clients. I mean, there's so many different emotions, not just that they are expressing or or trying to express, or yeah, we're trying to help them figure out what they're feeling, but then we're feeling things, and yeah, what do we do with all these emotions?

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Yeah, and it gives you exposure to different types of people that you might not otherwise encounter, given your own power to choose, because you don't get to pick who you're in a group with. And that exposure could also really inform your work with clients.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

And you know, a group member might talk about something similar to a problem your client has that could help give you a new perspective on your client's issue.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

And along those lines of sort of this, like, because it it's kind of sounds like we're talking about the like exp like how we experience being in the client role or like seeing therapeutic work done in group from a different perspective than when when we are in the therapist chair. So also seeing someone else kind of work. Like, I I don't know, I've gotten a lot out of being in group from just like witnessing the group leader work with other people.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Because in individual therapy, I just experienced them working with me, and even that's you know, totally subjective because I'm the one that's experiencing it in the moment, but it's like watching them do therapy with other people, and then also watching the group help, watching the group provide therapy.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Oh, this reminds me of something Jen Morris said in the recent CGS weekend. Hold on. Everybody is a therapeutic force, yes, and everyone is a patient, so yeah. I mean, I've I've as a leader and a member have been impressed and humbled by uh how people are helped and supported by group members um in ways that maybe don't come as naturally to me, certain ways of responding and relating and resonating and joining and all that stuff can inform my work with individual clients and group clients, of course.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Right. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, some of the some of the most therapeutic moments that happen in group are between group members. I think that's totally true that like everyone in the group sort of takes on that therapeutic role at times, as well as being the patient, quote unquote, and the healing force of the group, too.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Right. It's also a place where you receive feedback on how you impact others, which we don't always get with our own therapists who might not be trained to give that kind of feedback, or um, maybe it wouldn't be therapeutic in that setting. Then we don't always get it from our own clients because they don't want to ruin the relationship, they're not prepared to take that risk with us. But in a group, the invitation is to do that, to tell people how they impact you and to be open to receiving that feedback.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, I'm just thinking of so many different, and sometimes that's in a more direct way that people, you know, say like, ah, I just feel really annoyed by what you just said, or I'm feeling just feeling really bored. And um, obviously it's important to explore like why, like what's happening for that person and why they're feeling bored. And there's something for them to learn there about that, but yeah, like you said, just the other person might not realize that there's something about the way they express themselves.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah. And then we can become more aware of how we come across, uh, often in ways we're not meaning to, and maybe adjust a little bit how we show up for clients. You know, I've gotten feedback, for instance, that I'm seem very serious and maybe distant or uh unemotional. So sometimes I have to amp it up in a way that feels excessive to me, but isn't at all to others. It's just helping me connect with them more or have a little more of an impact, maybe, than I normally would.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, that feels vulnerable to talk about. Does that feel vulnerable? Not really. Like vulnerable when it comes up in group.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Yeah, when it comes up in group, it can feel that way. It don't feel doesn't feel that way now just talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Well, yeah, it's interesting. I'm just thinking of like the feedback that we get about because yeah, when when you said like, oh, then sometimes it you might want to like amp it up in a way that feels more connecting for others, but it doesn't feel as natural for you. But you're probably not doing that all the time, right? And you're probably still being you, right. So I guess it just depends on like the client or the situation or or the person you've gotten feedback from in group.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, I've gotten well, yeah, I've gotten feedback that I interrupt people in group. Um, so I'm like, I hope I'm not interrupting my clients.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Yeah, and then when you get I I got feedback from a client uh recently that I interrupt her. This was not a group member, this was an individual client. And having been in group, both as a member and a leader, I have gotten experience with that kind of feedback that might be described as negative, but I've learned how to receive it without being destroyed by it.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Right. Yeah, that's the thing about group is every time as time has gone on, like every time somebody has something to tell me, you know, that could be perceived as something negative of how they're being impacted by me or some reaction they're having to me, um, it feels less scary. And it just feels like, yeah, like all right, this is gonna hopefully deepen the relationship and lead to some understanding about me and about them.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

And yeah. Which is incredibly valuable to have as a skill when we're sitting with individual clients. We can use our emotional experience as another way in to the client's experience. Um, we can wonder if what we're feeling is what they're feeling, or if we're feeling what they can't really feel.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Right. Yeah, I mean, because so much about being in group is being asked about what you are feeling or what someone else is feeling, or just you know, a lot of ask about feelings. Um and that happens again and again. So, like, yeah, the more that we're asked about our feelings or watch other people, you know, try to access their feelings and express them. Yeah, you're right. Like that helps us to tune into our own yeah, just like getting it's like practicing your emotional muscles or your emotional capacity. Because yeah, there's all sorts of stuff that come up and it can happen so quickly in sessions when you're the therapist. So I think, yeah, you're right. It helps us to like maybe slow down and just be able to notice what we're feeling.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Yeah. And slow down others in their own feelings. You learn how to translate people in subtle ways, and you learn how to recognize when they might be avoiding something in the way they're talking about it, like they're not naming a feeling. They're maybe, you know, they say, I feel I feel like I'm bragging, you know. You can you you develop an ear for that kind of thing. Any sentence that's I feel like, you can be like, all right, so what does that mean that you're feeling? And it's just another way in to their emotional experience.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah. I just had the thought of I don't know if this is like a good point to start talking about like theory and technique, but just some of the ways in which that happens, you know, because there are people as group members and other members that we're all being asked about our feelings and our emotional experience quite a bit. And sometimes I can feel too vulnerable to be asked directly about what your emotional experience is. So the therapist or we as the group therapist might bridge and ask somebody else what they think we're feeling or what they think we mean by yeah, whatever they just said that's not a feeling. Um right. So yeah, bridging is a big is a thing that we're both big fans of.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

And an individual, you could just do a simple version of that, maybe by saying, So when you say you feel like you're bragging, I imagine you're feeling embarrassment. Yeah, that might not be right, but you can do that for your client. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, I think then that helps us to like translate that skill or that whatever you want to call it, technique into our individual work, or yeah, just any work, couples therapy work. I think group has hugely helped me as a couples therapist, too.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Because a couple is, you know, it's not a group, but it is a system, and it's two people interacting that you know, I don't go home with them, I'm not part of that system.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Two people with lots of parts, right? So you could see it as a group in that way.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Lots of feelings that are happening that are either not getting expressed or getting expressed in ways that aren't is not emotional expression.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Lots of, you know, I feel like you're being an asshole, or yeah, I feel like you're being defensive.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Good one. You've not only just said something that's not a feeling, but you've also just interpreted their experience.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

Yeah. Um, I just had a thought. Okay, yeah. Another reason why, especially therapists should be in a process group is because it will show them, especially if there's other therapists in the group, that everybody's fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yes. Oh, yes. So huge, so huge. I mean, I think that's a foundational thing in group in general, uh, with you know, regular groups with civilians, people get that uh, what is it called, universality, or yeah, just knowing that maybe even if someone doesn't struggle with like the same kinds of things, it just everyone has struggles. Everyone has no, no one's got their shit together entirely, right? Yeah. Um, but especially for therapists, and especially for new therapists, yeah. Because there's so much professional insecurity or imposter syndrome for new therapists, or just the feeling of like, I have no idea what I'm fucking doing. Yeah, I mean, that was one of the hugest benefits for me of joining a process group when I first started working as a therapist, was being in a group with other therapists, some of them who had been therapists for at least 10 years, and hearing how they were not only fucked up like me, and also struggled with their clients or struggled with their sense of themselves as a therapist at times.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And when you when you have less of that pressure to not be fucked up or to try and hide that all the time, you're just freer, you're you free up more energy and creativity, like you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, when we're not as like self self-absorbed or can or consumed by with like how we're supposed to be, or because that's another thing, I think, for just us as humans, but certainly new therapists and you know, therapists in general, or this is a human condition, but thinking like, oh, we should be this way, or I should be, or shouldn't be feeling this, or shouldn't, you know, it's like yeah, just to be freer as a therapist and be able to be more authentic and be ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

And you can talk about how you're fucked up and have people respond in a way that is, I mean, not always, but often soothing and validating and encouraging, and um and then you're not as scared of your fucked upness, so then you're not as threatened um when maybe clients are suggesting implicitly or explicitly that you suck in some way, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, what is it that Jacob talks about?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

About that I the idea of like accepting or acknowledging that you know we at some point, you know, we all are greedy, messy, mean, um whatever. Pick the the negative trait that you want. Yeah. Um, and if we can really be okay with like owning that, not as like that's like all that's just who we are, but as like, yeah, sometimes I'm an asshole, sometimes I don't know what to say, sometimes I interrupt you. That that what does he say about that? That's just like helps you to be free instead of it being like I shouldn't be that way, I can't be that way.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

It's like right, right. And then you can help your clients be more free, like you're not as maybe intimidated by their darker, more complex neuroses, right, or their you can join them more.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yes, yeah, you can join them more. And yeah, that we're not as what did you say, afraid of their darker, complex neuroses, and help them to not be afraid of them either or feeling like it's bad or I shouldn't be this way.

SPEAKER_05 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Because yeah, ultimately, I think a big part of like work of being a happier human or even spiritual work is to be more open-hearted and more accepting of the truth of our human experience in any given moment, regardless of what it is.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yeah. And in a group, people often see and are told that you're really good at doing that for other people. Why can't you do that for yourself? And then it's get more awareness around that discrepancy.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Totally. Well, I wonder how that is there anything in technique that that ties into so for technique, I was mostly thinking about bridging and joining and the focus on feelings.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

The other technique, I guess, is also um staying in the here now. And I feel like the discussion of the why that we just had, and we might come up with more, is basically covering the theory. Isn't theory all about why?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Right. Yeah, like why you're doing something with the theory, theory of change or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yes, yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

I mean, we could maybe talk a little bit about the common group agreements, because I think those also point to theory.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Because the process group is unique, uh different from other groups in various ways, but one re way that comes to mind is um you're not allowed to develop relationships with people outside of the group, which is not the case in, say, a support group or a dbt group or lots of other groups. That is not an agreement.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

That points to something theoretical.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Uh-huh. And like why that's important.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

As far as technique, you know, there's really some kind of core important ways in which groups are facilitated. And the whole point of the technique is to help people, you know, identify and express their feelings and connect with other people in the group.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Yep. That's primarily done by bridging, joining, focusing on emotions and staying in the here and now of the group as much as possible. One technique is like when you when the group is getting too far out of the room, either in the past or someone else's, you know, outside life stuff, you as the leader think about how what people are saying applies to the group itself, to what's happening right now. Is there a parallel process at play? How is this problem that Lucy is having replicated in this group? And then we're back with the group. Although it might be in a more heady kind of way. But at least we're getting there. So that I think that I think of that as a technique.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, that's totally a technique. What is that called?

SPEAKER_03 22:06

That falls under the staying focused on the here and now as much as possible.

unknown 22:11

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Or like if someone's talking about like, you know, how they feel exploring parallel processes, maybe you could call that.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah, like if someone is talking about feeling abandoned by their partner or something, and you're like, how much you feel abandoned by by the group right now?

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Or how am I how have I abandoned you as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Because there's that idea in just psychoanalysis with individual work that whatever the client is talking about applies to the therapist. So that's also in the theory category.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Right. And sometimes it can feel like it's a stretch, but it it almost that it's kind of less important because it it gets something happening, it gets a process going between group members in the here and now.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah. Which I guess speaks to the theory that more work, well, the only work you can do is in the here and now.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Right. Yeah, because even if someone is talking about an argument that they had with their partner, you know, we're gonna be asking other group members how that person is impacting them as they're talking about that, or what are they feeling towards so and so? It's not about like, what do you think Bob should have said to his wife? Yeah. Like, how are you feeling about Bob's, what Bob is saying right now?

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Or yeah, this reminds me of another why too for therapists is that I mean, I guess I touched on it in the first one, but we're so used to being in a certain role, and group invites us to be in all kinds of different roles or to show all parts of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

And we get to say things to fellow group members that we most likely can't say to our clients. And that can just be liberating, just a freeing experience.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Uh totally. I mean, talking about um talking about attraction in group.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Um, you know, I think most therapists would not tell their client that they were having feelings of attraction towards them.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Um, but yeah, being able to talk about attraction in group, because again, we're just putting our thoughts and feelings into words, where nothing is going to happen, we're not going into action. So really having the freedom to explore that attraction and even just saying it can be liberating because there's really not a social environment where people can do that with anyone but someone that they are in an intimate relationship with. Usually.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

So that can be freeing, or just yeah, I mean, anything, anything that you might not say to people.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

And yeah, and you don't have to think as much, you know. Therapists have to deliberate and discern a lot how to respond to a client in a given moment. Is this going to be therapeutic, you know? You don't have to do that in group, and it's actually best not to. That's it's a whole other ball of wax, whole other invitation. You're not here to to be helpful, you're not here to provide a therapeutic experience for someone. It might be therapeutic, but that's not your intention.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Right, exactly. And then if that is someone's sort of impulse that keeps coming up, then we get to explore the parts of them that that feel like they need to do that to people, or that the part that you know is afraid to to speak up, or just you know, what gets in the way of of doing that.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Well, you just touched on another piece, big important part of the theory, which is not going into action. So we should definitely touch on that.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

And you learn how to interpret that in different ways, and you notice when you do it with individual clients, too. Yeah, to explore, not gratify by going into action.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Right. Yeah, and I wonder if we should um like touching on some examples of ways that people go into action that really impact the group as a whole, like when people just decide to leave, and even though you know they're giving the appropriate, you know, three session uh warning or whatever, but they didn't talk to the group about the thoughts and feelings that led to them deciding that they were gonna come in that day and say that they're leaving group, like so many people we've seen do in our groups.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Um and in groups I'm a member of.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Oh, yeah, that's happening in Pamela's group. How is Pamela handled that? What is what was the thing that she said that it was like what or like what feelings are you not wanting to be with, or like, yeah, something about are there like are you leaving because there's feelings you're not wanting to tolerate, or yeah, that sounds right. How many people are leaving in your group?

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Two left abruptly, very recently.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Man, lame, yeah, that's lame. Were people mad?

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Yeah, disappointed. What are you looking at?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Well, I'm looking at this thing from my um my log that I wrote. I was having trouble finding it on my computer, but um, the question that I thought of was like, what is the difference between um like what looks like resistance, or is it just like poor preparation? Or like, could we have done a better job preparing somebody for group um in talking about the agreements? Or I mean, I you know, you can always explain them or emphasize the importance of them, or like they're not going into action, and it's like people are still gonna do what they're gonna do. So, yeah, I think it's always it's always resistance, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Right, that's a big part of the theory, too. It's resistance.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Right, and the thing with the agreements is that we don't, they're not rules, they're not, we expect people to you know not adhere to them at various times, and that that's just a form of resistance. We want to study it and understand it and explore it.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

But theory for now includes ideas around the importance of immediacy, what's the other I word, intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Resistance, transference, counter-transference. Um, I'm just gonna put the container words over action.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

That seems like most of the theory stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

And then technique, and you and I can continue to just think about these things and maybe drop down some thoughts, and um, I can email you what I've written down today, and we can start an email back and forth as we think of more stuff.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Even if we don't think of more stuff, I think this is plenty.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Right. Well, yeah, email that to me, and then I can add anything that I think of that goes well with that. But yeah, I think it'll be fun.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Technique, bridging, joining, parallel process, focus on here and now, focus on emotions in here and now. Exploring is a technique.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Explore, explore, explore.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah. Like joining is a way of exploring.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

It's like an in. Yeah, what and what would be an example of that?

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Um, well, anytime you you join with somebody, it's like saying yes and, and that's just a way to go further into it.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Whereas if you don't join, if you resist or argue or yeah, like I like I I really don't want to I really don't want to talk about that. You're like, yeah, yeah, like why would you want to talk about that? That's well, these people, like yeah, sounds really scary.

unknown 31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Or how could these people possibly respond in a way that's helpful?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Illuminating.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Um, so yeah, then instead of being like, oh, you can talk about it, or you know, why not? Yeah, that's just a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, I mean, there is sort of that's the yeah, joining is helpful in that way. Um and it just depends, you know. I think sometimes it can be helpful to be like, depending on what the the situation is, can be like, well, yeah, can you say something about the part of you? I guess that's still sort of like certainly joining, but like, can you like, yeah, that totally you don't have to talk about that, but can you first say something about the part of you that doesn't want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Yeah, right. Um, I'm gonna put specificity here too, as a technique.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Just getting more precise with our language.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

I mean, that also goes back to focus on emotions. Asking people to get more precise about how they talk about that, which we talked about in the last episode.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, clarifying, you know, what what is a feeling and what's not a feeling.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, sometimes um helping people to identify what they're feeling in their bodies.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Right. But because that's here now.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Mm-hmm. Oh, and the last thing, also just you know, um fantasies.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

The word fantasy gets used a lot.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Or, you know, what do you what do you imagine might and that's you know, could be for a lot of reasons, but fantasies around like what you what do you fantasize so and so is thinking, or also turning questions into statements is a technique. Like what's an example of that?

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Well, when we often the fantasy thing comes up when someone asks someone else a question and the leader says, What's your fantasy? Oh, yeah, you know, whatever they're asking. Um so that's the way I'm inviting them to make a statement and be the vulnerable one instead of asking questions and putting the other person in the vulnerable seat.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Totally, totally. Oh, that yeah, it's interesting. I presume I wasn't I I hadn't, I was not that I hadn't thought about it like that, but I guess I wasn't thinking, yeah, because that's like um instead of me being like, well, what did why did you say that to him, Sarah? Me being like, I I imagine that you said that because you were angry. Yeah, it's like still trying to get the same information, or yeah, you're getting information, but also bringing yourself into it, yeah, into the interaction. Cool. Yeah, hopefully this is good enough for a podcast.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Okay, cool. Thank you for listening to the Present Moment Process Podcast, the official podcast of the Asheville Group Psychotherapy Society. For more information, you can visit our website at Asheville Groups.org or email us at Present Moment Process at gmail.com.