The Hollywood Blueprint

Creative executive turned writers assistant, leaving ego at the door with Alec Engerson

• Michelle Goldsborough & A.K. Moore • Season 1 • Episode 3

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The Hollywood Blueprint pulls back the curtain on Hollywood, offering an inside look at the entertainment industry through candid conversations with the people shaping its future — from assistants and executives to creators and anyone in between. What does your job title mean and what do you do? We’re here to help our listeners learn enough to get past the gatekeepers.

Alec is a current Writer's Assistant on Baywatch while previously serving as a Showrunner's Assistant and Creative Executive. We talk about leaving ego at the door, where the power in Hollywood went and his relationship with Showrunner Matt Nix (Burn Notice)

SPEAKER_02

Hello and welcome back to episode three of the Hollywood Blueprint. I'm producer AK Moore.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm your host, Michelle Goldsboro.

SPEAKER_02

Today we're speaking to Alec Engerson, who started as support staff in post-production, moved up to a creative executive role, and now currently works as a writer's assistant on the new Baywatch TV series that will be released this fall.

SPEAKER_01

Enjoy. Hi Alec, welcome to the Hollywood Blueprint. How are you?

SPEAKER_03

Um great. Uh thanks for having me. Back to work. I'm working. Um I'm a writer's assistant on Baywatch. And uh so back in the office um with the crew there, and they're all fucking great. So it's it's really nice to like genuine, like I genuinely, they're just like a great group of people when I really actually like going to work and I like my job. And yeah, it's I know it's it it's such a you feel so conflicted saying that right now because it was so it's it is so bad for people. And for anyone listening, please uh be assured that I did my uh I got my lumps during the strike too. Like I went two years without work, so I like I totally will surprise well like I ended up getting a day job because I just like well ad adjacent.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um but uh but like no writing jobs for two years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love that it's honestly like you're maybe the first person I have met in a while that actually likes their job and the people they work with, and it's all around good vibes.

SPEAKER_03

Uh yeah, and I um am so fucking just aware of how lucky I am to feel that way and to be and like again for what it's worth, like I've I've taken my lumps. Like I've been working for 10 years, um a little over. So I've been working actually 12 years. So it's been you know a long time. So I've definitely worked places where I, you know, don't get along with the removes.

SPEAKER_04

Of course, who hasn't?

SPEAKER_03

And I've been wrong in some of those moments, though probably I mean, I don't think I was, but maybe I was. Um but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, well, I mean, on that note, let's I want to get to know you and your career timeline. So walk me through where you started and how you got where you are now.

SPEAKER_03

Sure, yeah, of course. I am happy to uh do that in any way possible, but just out of curiosity, do you want like the writer spiel version or do you want like just the real the genuine biography of career?

SPEAKER_00

You know, let's do both and then we'll yeah. So you start working with everyone you want.

SPEAKER_03

Together, dude. We are in this together. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00

Um in this together.

SPEAKER_03

So all right, I'll give you like the the the the kind of general spiel, um, which will make anyone who's an exec who listens to this feel like I have a written spiel, which I do. Um so yeah, the basic idea is uh the thing I always talk about and thing that's always exciting is like how I was raised, right? Like that's a good chunk of of generals when you're a writer, they like to know everything about you from before you were a writer. Sometimes, sometimes if you're famous enough to be honest, they probably don't give a shit anymore. But if you're at my level and you're still kind of breaking in, you're still coming up, you're what a lot of people term uh a baby writer. You know, a lot of generals are just trying to prove that you're an interesting person. And and especially when I was an exec, which I'll get into in a second, uh, generals did feel a lot like um, hey, tell me like all of your traumas, and then I'll determine if you're like a good writer based on that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Can you write about your sorrows?

SPEAKER_03

It was, you know, it was an interesting moment. And I'm yeah, we can just get into talking about it real quick, but like it was an interesting moment. So I was just very quickly, my career was I was in college, I went to Chapman, I was not a film major, I was an economics major with a film studies minor. Pure cowardice. This is not a judgment on people who go to film school. I was too afraid to do it. And my mom, who is brilliant and amazing, was like, you should go to film school. So she like reversed psychology to shout out, mom. She's great. Um, and she and so I I went to fucking business school and I got an econ degree that I've never used. But anyway, graduated. I went into my I've worked a few internships. I worked for Mary Parent when she before she went over to uh Legendary, she had a company called Disruption. Uh so we did like Pacific Rim and a few things like that. And I was just a script reader there. So very like the type of internships I'm sure everyone has done, where you're just doing coverage and you're doing, you know, the very normal stuff. But I learned a lot and I'm a fast reader with strong opinions. So I ended up like feeling like I really was understanding what was going on. And though I don't think ever, I don't think anyone I met there led directly to a job. I do feel like I gained confidence there in a really specific, interesting, kind of important way. Okay. Um yeah, so I'm glad for it. But anyway, so when I graduated college, I was actually just took the first entertainment job I could. My mom sold clothes at Nordstrom, so I had no real industry connections. My dad was a criminal, so I don't really know him, and that always is a big part of my general spiel, which people tend to love. Not only was he a criminal, he also was. I mean, before he met my mom, he was a male escort. It's a whole, it's a look, it when I when I get to the like, hey, tell me your trauma section, I'm like pretty interesting. You were say so.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

I got my first job out of college, it was just any job I could get. I got a post-PA job um working in like reality shows. So I did unscripted stuff for um Animal Planet mainly. So I worked on a show called Ice Cold Gold and a show called Yankee Jungle. And I very quickly ended up rising through the ranks in unscripted post-production. I became a coordinator and then eventually a post-soup. I was learning a lot about an area of the industry I really had no desire to like trap myself in. I think it was a time period where people often out loud would say, like, well, if you do reality, you might get stuck. And I do think there's more flexibility now, but there was a real feeling of like isolation in pods.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, everyone's always worried. I think also I've heard that seatman applied mostly to reality than any other. If you're in it, you get like pigeonholed and it's really hard to get out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I mean, like, I guess for what it's worth, I've heard it. Like, I know people who feel pigeonholed in animation, who want to move into live action. I mean, like, and the reality is like it's all silly, but most people can do a lot of stuff. But like, you know, whatever. Where as you're building your career, you're very cognizant, as I'm sure you feel, like, you're very cognizant of what each move might do to affect it. And whether you're right or wrong, you can't help but put a lot of pressure onto those decisions. And so I started to feel uh I was trapping myself in this reality box and post box. And I love post, but it's just I wanted to write and I wanted to be like a part of of movies and scripted things. And um so I took uh demotion, which I've done a couple times in my career, but I became a PA again. I um I went, I got on a show called Kingdom that was um Byron Belasco's like MMA show he did with uh Frank Grillo and Matt Laurie and Jonathan Tucker and Nick Jonas and uh Keely Sanchez.

SPEAKER_01

Whoa. Were you in the same room as Nick Jonas?

SPEAKER_03

Oh well, first of all, before I even got that job, I actually briefly acted. Um and so I yeah, I know. Turns out I'm I'm a little sensitive for it. But I so I was an actor for a little while, and if there were if there was a show that had moderately good looking white people in their teens and twenties in the background, there's like a 60% chance I'm in that show. I was just in like every show where like I've been a certified generic white boy? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

100% like at least you own it.

SPEAKER_03

Inoffensive, good, good looking, but not too good looking white boy. It's it's really the the the perfect spot for me. So I did actually get to work on Kingdom before I worked on Kingdom, and Nick Jonas pushed me in a scene, which is a beautiful, that's amazing. Because he's he's actually super sweet and he worked super hard to date. One of the best shows I I've ever worked on. But anyway, from there I kind of met my people um with the production office team. Um my UPM would take her production supervisor and coordinator just show to show. So I became part of that crew and I did a few shows with them. But when I was working on a show called Yeah, Unsolved, uh about Tupac and Big E, I met Anthony Hemingway, um, who is a writer director. Um by that point, I had become the production secretary, I think, uh, for the production office. But I met Anthony, uh, and he is a dude who works really hard. And so he would be in the office very late when he was in prep for his episodes. Cause he, um, for people who don't know, like when a director is an executive producer, supervising director on a show, they'll be in prep for one episode while a different director usually is filming it. And so when Anthony was in prep in the production office, we would talk about movies and blah, blah, blah. And I take movie watching, especially at that time, I took it very seriously. So I would talk to Anthony about movies and I was watching a movie a day and really trying to be somebody who like knows his shit. And I think, you know, when you reached out to me about this, we kind of briefly talked about the idea of like I think really open like criticism of the industry from time to time. And I I this is light criticism, but I think I spent a lot of my initial years feeling that anyone successful must be so smart and so good and so brilliant. And so I worked really, really hard. I mean, I was like falling asleep in the wheel at the wheel, like literally when I was driving to Paramount from Orange County because I was just working too many jobs. You know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

I was watching a movie a day because I felt like I'm nobody, so I need to like be as informed as you possibly can, which is so hard to do.

SPEAKER_03

It's super hard. But like, look, I love this stuff so much. So I was willing to do it.

SPEAKER_01

And I was as long as you're not watching a movie while you're driving, I support.

SPEAKER_03

No comment. Um, no, I um um but I so you impressed Anthony. Yeah, we you know, I think he he liked what I had to say enough or something about me my passion enough to um invite me to join his company. He had signed a first slip deal with Sony, and he needed uh at the time I was like a project manager for the company. He yeah, he just needed somebody to kind of help put the you know, put the place together, organize it, do like some of the work I had learned from my production supervisor about like how to organize offices and whatever, whatever. And Anthony needed that along with some script reading coverage stuff. Um and I pretty quickly became what I think most companies would actually call like a coordinator for AHP. Yeah. Uh while while we had our first flip deal with Sony, uh first flip deal for anyone who doesn't know, uh, we got paid money to basically show Sony all the ideas we were working on first. And if they didn't like them, we could go elsewhere. But if they did like them, we would develop one with Sony.

SPEAKER_01

Um also thank you for explaining that because I always like to include a little vocab moment of understanding what these terms mean and what people are doing and what the heck you just said. So I love that like you get it, that the concept of an overall deal, like what the heck does that mean? I mean, I know, but like thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_03

But so we did our first look deal with Sony for about two years. We developed a few things with them, and then actually we ended up getting an overall deal. It it's similar to the first look deal for brevity. I'll just say, like, it's similar, except it's usually significantly more money. Uh, and it's a little bit more prohibitive, where if they don't like something like you worked for them, they are keeping you on retainer. And like, you know, to be a good partner, you may end up working on things that you're maybe not as excited about, or you're we're, you know, were inherited, or maybe not, like, you know, whatever. You're just trying to exist in the Disney ecosystem a little bit more uh directly, which is um actually uh how I ended up working on the show True Lies. Um by that point, we uh a few new execs had joined the company when we made the deal with Disney, a few new execs joined the company, and I was fortunate enough to uh begin being introduced as the uh creative executive for the company and got a little bit more uh yeah, and like look, I I got to put my fingers in a lot of pies. Um I got to like learn a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When do you remember the moment when you're just in a room with your boss, these people, and then they just introduce you as a creative executive? Did you have like a okay kind of moment or like it was a conversation?

SPEAKER_03

That's funny. I uh no, you know, it was interesting because it kind of it was kind of a slow play. The execs started doing it before Anthony did. Not like not that they were doing it behind his back necessarily, but I think it was just like as like he's on set, he's directing, and we're doing day-to-day meetings. And I think slowly over time, as my notes became more of a part of the company's notes, and like as I started leading more meetings and bringing in writers, and it just felt I think it kind of just started to be the thing, and and yeah, yeah. Um, it was cool. And I mean, like, look, I mean, just again, random advice from someone who's not that successful and doesn't sorry, my uh my neighborhood cat is walking. So uh but uh who's not that successful there he is. Um he's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

The cat's actually paid.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I don't know. I I I'm super grateful for my time there. I was with Anthony for four years, and yeah, as an exec, I I really got to learn a lot. Like I was in hundreds of generals. We were doing, you know, three or four a day. Um, and I read again hundreds of scripts, and we were developing tons of projects, and I got to learn so much about how the development process works and how hard it is. And I and I also got to learn, and I'm gonna lose some audience members here, like what great execs can accomplish. Like, I really do think great execs, and there are there are ones out there, like, will make a show better. Like, I genuinely think that like I really believe like good notes and and like meaningful, smart execs like really make things better. Like, I truly to my bones believe that we exist in this industry because we are naturally collaborative-minded artists. Like, I think I am a writer and we've lost the plot on that, or you just mean in I no, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01

We've lost the plot on what the purpose of being here in this city is and growing up and learning under someone, and not that the stress is talked about more than the joy of storytelling and the conversation around it. I think that's just my opinions, but I do agree with you that it seems like you've had a really positive upbringing in this position, which is really nice to hear.

SPEAKER_03

And I don't mean as a uh as on my uh I just want to, I just don't want to send the wrong message that like it's all great and easy. Like I had some horrible, horrible. No, not at all. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm sure I I yeah I can assure like anyone who finds this podcast and watches it, there's not one person who has not had at least one horrible job, horrible week, month, day, and it's ingrained in our brains. And it's just like, if someone needed to ask me, I'd be like, ask like which scenario are you looking for? Because I've got like 16.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And like, I like I a thing that is just true of of the entertainment industry is that like you will get fired at some point. Like it's just gonna happen. Every person gets fired. Matt Nick's showrunner of my current show, who I think is awesome, has been fired before in his career. And he's an undeniably successful dude. Like, it's just you are gonna get fired at some point in your career. I'm at I will say, like, I also in this particular period uh uh of entertainment strife, which like I mean it's just really bad right now. I am I am trying to when I can, I am trying to like pinpoint things I think are actually great about our industry, only only to even if it just means for myself, like there's stuff I like about it because there's so much lately. Like, look, getting notes on a show is so hard and so annoying. And getting a show done, like I mean, I I I worked on a show called True Lives that like I'm incredibly proud of and I am so lucky to have worked on, but like critics didn't particularly like love and like you know, audiences didn't. I mean, we had a great retention rate, but we weren't like blowing up any numbers, like you know, we had like fine numbers and we got canceled after one season, and like people were very mean to us online, and my aunt was mean to me once at a wedding about the show. No, like at the same time Oh no, but like, but but all I had to say, like we had many of the same complaints that that viewers would or critics would, but like, you know, and sometimes we felt I mean, sometimes we didn't, sometimes we legitimately just completely disagree, and we're like, no, we think that was great or that didn't work, and we're surprised you liked it. But like, yeah, sometimes we were like, no, we agree, and I wish there were more credit given to just how much collaboration this is, and like sometimes the ship gets scared the wrong way, and it's very hard to blame anybody for anything. But I'll just say, like, I do right now, just because things are so bad, I've been trying to say like, but this is like a great thing about our industry. And I really do think like, I really do think a great thing about our industry is the collaboration. And I think where we are hurting, and I don't know, watch this fucking come back to bite me in like 20 years, but like where we are hurting, in my opinion, the ladder, the like mentor mentee ladder that should exist in our industry uh is is super broken. And like everyone knows it, and we all know it. And really the only debate worth having is how much it was ever there. But the other debate I think worth having is like, well, what can it can it be better and what like specifically is making it worse? And I think a big chunk that we're not talking about enough, maybe, is that execs. There was a great Hollywood reporter article about this, but like execs in the middle are, for lack of a better term to come to mind, like neutered right now. Like they are not able to green light things that they really like and are passionate about. They're just trying their best to impress or just not piss off the person above them who's trying to do the same.

SPEAKER_01

And it's just like it's all about survival right now.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And so it's creating a really bad ecosystem, I think. And and and what it's doing, for me, in my opinion, what it's doing is it's just creating this weird gap between like audiences and and creatives, and and I mean that in like every aspect, like including um executives that are creative. Um I think this gap exists because well, a lot of reasons, but like partially because we're not allowing as many fresh executive voices. And I I can tell you right now, like there's an exec, I mean, I don't have a specific person in mind, but like there is an exec at Disney right now who has an amazing show that they've probably been fighting for for two years that no one will make because they are a middle-level exec and they're not given enough power to green light something, but that that show would be so cool and so fresh and people would be excited about it. And it's just really hard to trust. I mean, these companies are so big.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's really hard to trust people who have power.

SPEAKER_01

Trust me, I hear you. And part of the reason why we're doing this is also just to get, you know, to share the joy and be pride, prideful of our careers and our survival and our career pivots and what's going on and talking about things because headlines have been selling the negative. But thank you for sharing your perspective on all of this because it's really interesting to meet someone I don't know and to pick your brain about it. But on the topic of survival and you know, one's career path and trying to climb a ladder, you're really fascinating to me because you've gone from being a creative executive to a showrunner's assistant, all hard jobs to get. Now you're a writer's PA and it's not a writer's assistant. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's not an a typical career path. Of course, I stalked you on LinkedIn too. So I'm curious to know what challenges did you face if it was challenge-based that helped that convinced you to career pivot, or it wasn't just opportunity presented itself and you just kept taking whatever was coming just to learn and see what happened next.

SPEAKER_03

No, I mean it was um look, the reality is that it's a mix of both. I I mean, it's like life is chaos and we're all just it's a great. I mean, I I'm sure it's not a Bruce Lee quote, but I've only heard Bruce Lee say it. But the like be water thing, like, you know, water, the beauty of water is it fits the mold that it's poured into. So like if you put it in a cup, it's shaped like a cup. If you put it in a bowl, shape like a bowl. Like, and so if you can be water and fit the shape that you're put into, you'll hopefully have a at least more complacent life, or I think I think happier. But um, but so I've I think my like love, love and adoration of movies and TV is just so intense that I would probably do any job, but that I have but that I have a very specific goal and and and desire, and I would argue talent, but I guess debatable. Obviously. But but I um so like also say, like, I think what I've done is I I've I've always had a a goal and a target, but I've been very willing to bounce around to whatever keeps me adjacent enough. Um, you know, especially in this kind of era of survival, like just whatever keeps me. I mean, you know, Matt and and Mike are our co EP or no infection producers on the show, uh, will like jokingly call me like the most overqualified writer's assistant. And maybe that's true. I don't know. I I sure there's a writer's assistant more qualified than me somewhere. But like, yeah, I am a on paper, maybe overqualified writers assistant just from my exec years and from like the handful of times I've been paid to write, which I've just been lucky enough to to get. But like, but at the same time, like I I I guess I believe in myself enough and I believe in the industry enough that like as long as I feel I'm on the path and taking steps towards where I want to be, I actually don't have that much ego about the job. I've been actually paid like shockingly low amounts of money for writing too. Like, you know, and and like I once got paid five thousand dollars to write a script, like a feature. Like, which, like, depending on where you are in your life, that's actually decent money. But like, okay, like $5,000 right now would be rad. But to write an entire feature, that's like fucking crazy uh compared to what you would get as like a a union. I mean, is there like, you know, this is non-union work back in the day, and like, you know, all to say, like, but I felt I was close from my path. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, I'm being one-winded and ranty, but it's no, it's okay. I as someone who knows nothing about um numbers and what you know you someone should be paid for a script, it's good to know that 5,000 is considered a very low number. Um, I don't, I'm not a writer, so I wouldn't even know. That's like something I'd have to look up if I was in that position to pay somebody. But it's also good to know that you know, you did what you had to do, and there's no ego involved. It's always just a learning opportunity. And it seems like you've had intent at all times, which is beautiful to hear.

SPEAKER_03

When I was a PA, uh an AD threw something away, needed someone to dive in a dumpster, and I fucking did it. And like, I don't think that's good. Like, I thought it was good back then because I was like, How old were you at then when that happened? 43. No, I was uh I was probably 26, but like uh yeah, probably around there. Uh yeah, 25, 26. Did they think probably like dumpster diving is like a hard no for me? Well, good. Like that's fine. Like I that's kind of my point. Like, I think at that time I was so willing to just do anything, and I don't actually think that necessarily was good for my career back then. I mean, you know, maybe I'd be more successful if I had harder boundaries, you know. I mean, that's an argument could be made. Sure. Um, but I guess to try to succinctly answer your actual question, it's always been a mix of necessity and uh opportunity. Sometimes I've taken a job purely because I didn't worked in so long, and I just need any job would work. You know, I've done that. That's why that's why I worked at Dick Clark, even though I ended up working for someone who's like one of my favorite bosses I ever had. Like I worked on award shows um that I did not give a shit about. Like I learned about trying not to like get myself in trouble later. Like I learned about celebrities that I would argue no one needed to learn about and are not celebrities now. And like I wrote, it was actually an amazing experience for my writing career because I wrote something that just was so universally hated uh by myself as well, because I just got to watch, I got like I got like real showrunner training in like a month because I basically wrote a sketch for an award show. And then it just I watched what I thought was a pretty funny sketch just get worse and worse and worse and worse every round of notes.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03

And then like budgetarily, and it just got worse and worse and worse. And then we filmed it and it was just getting worse and worse and worse as we were filming it. And I get I kind of just saw the plot to studio earlier, just like moving the plot. We were just, I just felt all the all the strings were leaving and blah, blah. And uh, and this was at the Streamy Awards. And I can tell you that because you can't actually watch the uh the the sketch I made because it was it was scrubbed for copyright purposes. But um the sketch was horrible. When I watched the first cut, I was like, Can we just actually just not do this? Like, I I just don't want it to happen. And uh they said, no, we have to do it. And I said, all right, fine. And they made we cut together something they thought was watchable. I didn't, and then I watched it live during the award show and no one laughed. And it was just silent, and I was just in a room, I was in a room of like with like people who actually now are so famous, but like back then I think we're like probably pretty famous, but in like early YouTube, like Logan Paul was there, and like okay, um, I yes, but I'm we weren't hanging out, but like the uh whatever. I just I just stand in a room with like a thousand people just hating what I fucking wrote, and I've never had to watch that before. I never had to experience people hating what you did in real time, right?

SPEAKER_01

That must be a really awkward thing to go through.

SPEAKER_03

And I yeah, and I don't know how many people watch the streamies, but I'm sure it was a fucking lot. So there's a case to be made that it is probably possibly still the thing that I've written that the most people have seen, and it is by far the thing the most people hated.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03

And I say all that, it was kind of great to get that out of the way early in my career because to my earlier point, you actually don't know whose fault anything is. You don't know if the director made the movie good or bad. Like I genuinely think Baywatch is gonna be a fucking awesome show, and I cannot wait for people to watch it. But even if it were terrible, it would not feel as bad as that moment because I already had that moment.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I'm saying? You are yes, you're and you're absolutely right. And you're putting that into the universe, and I am here for that. Also, really fascinating story, and I'm so sorry you had to go through that because I think in if that was me in real time and I was in a room with all these people, I would have just literally like crawled out of my own skin and just disappeared into thin air. But you mentioned Dick Clark Productions very briefly, and I'm really curious about this because you went from being a post-coordinator, if I'm correct, to a production secretary on a scripted show about Tupac and you know the notorious Mr. Big. What's up with that career job? Notorious Mr. Big is very fine. Um, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_03

Um my LinkedIn might be bad, but like that's pretty accurate. But I actually went, I actually went from um from post coordinator to to PA. Like, so I I actually that was yeah, yeah, I took a even bigger demotion. Um what happened? I it was it was just a scripted opportunity that I I just wanted to work in scripted so bad that I was like, I I don't want to do this. And like to be honest, if we're kind of talking about ladders being broken, absolutely at the time really liked to hire people like show to show and do what we would call like permalance, where they uh don't want anyone to be a full-time employee because they have to play benefits and shit. So they just would hire them for chunks of time and then bring them back. And like I loved the people I worked with, but that was just a not sustainable way for me, like that, you know, we agreed that we're freelance workers by taking this career, but I didn't want to be a freelance worker for a company that generally underpaid people and like didn't seem to care about its own employees. And I was like, why am I doing this? So when the opportunity came up for a different type of freelance work, which was the show came the show show kingdom, a scripted show, I I I said, fuck it. I I I really will kind of what I was I was trying to get to with my like path conversation. It's like if I feel that taking a step back and to the side will put me actually in a better direction to my path, I will take it. I absolutely I've been fortunate enough to always pay my bills, even though I've had like periods of of real real debt. But um, you know, I've always been able to survive it and push by. And I don't want to will this into existence, but I think people's worst fear right now with the entertainment industry is this like idea that it collapses. And again, to try to push some positivity from a pessimistic person. I truly don't believe that an industry is dead if one of its products can make a billion dollars. I just think that's like that's like crazy thinking. I think that's just like an insane thing to think and say. Fucking Mario's gonna make a billion dollars. Like, how could this industry be dead? That is so crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01

But I mean, you are right, it's not dead, it's just very broken. And um it's very broken. It's very hard to fix power and uh money opinions that involve and are led and driven by money. But yeah, there there are good things being made, there is joy in places, but I absolutely love that you said you you take a job that you can get that you need to keep you sane, to pay the bills. There is no demotion, it's it is survival and it will lead it leads someplace else. You don't need to stay stuck just because you're afraid of the what if. Because I think too many people, including myself, have gotten nervous by the what if, and then they just don't do it, and then you would never know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and like by the way, like I I have been nervous about that too. I mean, I've stayed at jobs too long, like I've stayed at jobs too long for sure. Like there are places that and like and and to a detrimental degree where like relationships got worse, you know, where like people who you were fine with started to annoy you because you just stayed around them too long. Like, I think that that that's a real thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but like, but just to take the apocalyptic kind of point of view further, because I I again I I don't want to under I don't want to sound like I'm underplaying how bad it is. It sucks. And I again like I took I didn't work in entertainment for two years. Like I I it was horrible and I was like crying all the time and and all the standard things that everyone I think is or not everyone, but a lot of people are feeling right now. Like I felt it. But I also think that if the worst happens and this con contraction just goes like on and on and on and on, and it just turns out that in the future a showrunner can make like $80,000 a year and that's the reality of it, I would still have this job. And I think I hope that if that becomes a thing and it turns out you can't make half a billion dollars from being the fucking head of a studio, uh, if that becomes a reality and the pe the people who are heads of studios make like 100 grand a year and like, you know, it's an okay paying job. Like it's a pretty good paying job in LA. That's a pretty good paying job.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think that if that is what we end up seeing becomes like the the economics of entertainment, then I'll just think we'll see people who actually care about movies and and TV and like actually like this stuff. Like my favorite thing when I meet new people, and I'm like really fortunate that I I've tricked people into thinking I'm more successful than I am and they want to talk to me on LinkedIn. Not this isn't you, this is actually just random listen college kids. Like I always meet them because I really do like I like actually believe in people and I'm so excited. Like when I do it.

SPEAKER_01

You get like a cold LinkedIn thing, and it's just like and you're like, oh, you want to talk? Like, I I get those, and it's kind of really cute. And I'm like, I in my head, I first want to say run, but then I'm like, don't, don't run, like join us, help make it better, like bring the joy and the passion.

SPEAKER_03

I've been so I've been so fortunate to be around like younger people because Matt's assistant, um, the show owner's assistant on our show is young because he's 24, and I've been around like 24-year-old people who love movies, and I've been like, fucking dude, what like I I love energy. It's so easy for us to to feel the doom and gloom of like movies are dead and the kids don't care, and all they want is their TikToks and their whatever. Like, I it's so easy to fall into this doom and gloom. But if you actually just go find like a 16-year-old and fucking talk to them about movies, they might not have your taste, which is fine, by the way. Like most kids don't have adult taste and they fucking shouldn't. Like they might have your taste, but they're excited about stuff.

SPEAKER_01

And they've got something to say about it.

SPEAKER_03

They have something to say, dude. And and and exact, but like it's tied into my my it's God, it's so hard to say this because it sounds basically like what I'm saying is like people just need to fucking retire. But there is a reality to that. We're if you don't want to retire, fine, but you do need to start giving more power to the people below you. You need to give meaningful power to people underneath you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like be there, like supervise. Like, by the way, like I think experience is really fucking valuable and important. I don't think that a bunch of fucking 23-year-old, like me at 23, should not have run a studio for sure. Allowing for a little bit more freshness, both creatively from like the creative standpoint uh of of writers, directors, actors, stuff like that. I mean, we have plenty of young actors, I guess. But okay, now we're seeing more. But anyway, I'm going to go.

SPEAKER_01

We've lost the plot. I love your head. I love the tangents you go on. I think you this is like so fascinating. But I have so many other questions to ask you about your career. So I know that no, don't apologize. I also wanted to ask you because as I almost break this chair, I know that you worked in adapting books into films at Voyage Media. That is really interesting because adaptation and story development, you know, fascinating stuff. What was your approach to adapting books? And talk to me about your job there. Talk to me about working at Voyage. Yeah, so that was it was freelance, really.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but it was those two freelance projects I did with them. Um, a producer there reached out to me to adapt a book called His Name Is Elijah. It's not, I think it was untitled when I got it, but that's the name now. And uh it is a uh true account by a woman uh named Maria Kuhia, who lives in uh Long Island, New York, which is where I'm from. Um and Maria uh is telling her story about her she was pregnant with a baby boy, and she lost the kid uh in a in what at first she suspected was a miscarriage, but what she later began to believe was actually an alien abduction. What? And it's such an interesting thing to to because yeah, like your reaction, I was like, that's like it's such a crazy thing. But like, yeah, so basically what happened was like the fetal sac um was missing, it wasn't just empty, it was just completely gone, and it was uh like evidence of of her pregnancy was really scarce. So it was almost as though she was never pregnant.

SPEAKER_01

So this was just like a medical phenomenon.

SPEAKER_03

Or aliens at.

SPEAKER_00

No, we're aliens, of course.

SPEAKER_03

What I think was kind of undeniable was that she was putting herself at great risk and um extreme like vulnerability to to to try to tell her story. And so when I got Maria's book and I read it, I really focused on on from a human standpoint, like the the risk you feel like you're taking when you are claiming something that is as perceivedly crazy as my baby was abducted by aliens. You know, so sure, sure. So it it was actually an amazing. I mean, and my grandmother, my grandmother is schizophrenic and bipolar. And so I grew up with her and my mom. She wasn't great about taking medicine, and and so sometimes she would um, you know, have a a manic episode, a schizophrenic episode, and do some stuff that would get her in trouble. Yeah, so I think like it's very easy for me to empathize with the person everyone thinks is crazy.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting to hear. So, okay, you mentioned that a producer found you to adapt this story into a book. How do they find you?

SPEAKER_03

So we had worked together before. Uh, she was a writer I knew from a different show, and she and I became friends. Like, I mean, truly, this isn't this is a friend business, a networking business.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

And uh, you know, I I'm branching out more now, but at that time I was very much branding myself as like purely a horror writer. Now I do more action adventure stuff too, but like genre. Like I'd I'd always push myself as a genre writer. Uh, she knew I was from Long Island, uh, where the story took place. And um, she knew about my grandma and my um, you know, kind of outlook towards uh mental health. And and you were the right guy. She felt I could be the right guy. Yeah. So I I um I met Maria uh and her and her daughter. Uh she has a few daughters, but I met her uh one of her daughters on the phone and and told them like what I kind of saw for the story and what I would do, try to do with it, and how I try to to tell her story. And she um uh I guess liked me. Um I guess and and uh I'm super grateful for her. And I think we made a really awesome, um, a really awesome adaptation. I think um incredible. You know, it's it it's an interesting thing, you know, what uh telling someone else's story with them is such a is the first it's the first time I ever did that. And so it was um it was yeah, it was it was really cool.

SPEAKER_04

Probably incredibly meaningful.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm super proud. And and so I have I bought, you know, uh yeah, my name is Elijah, it's the book, um the movie I probably will never get made, but um, but I'm super proud to have written it. Uh and then just to kind of get to the next part of that question, I uh so I did that with Voyage and uh they liked me, I guess. I had a good I got good reviews or five stars on Yelp, and so they reached out to me about another book. Yeah, but it was a book, it was another book adaptation. So I, you know, read a book, tried to there are the similar thing, just to try to guess make this educational. The similar thing between doing both is like you really do want to figure out what's important to the reader and the writer of the book. Like, like Maria was pretty willing to to let me do like, you know, a little bit, like lean into the horror a little more with certain elements of the the movie in the book, like or you know, do a little bit of truncating. Um, but you know, but also they were things that like, you know, this is her life. She wants it to be accurate to her life. And the same was true if someone writes a book, you know, they want you to feel like they're you're accurately depicting the thing they set up. And uh so yeah, I'm super happy to have been paid money to write.

SPEAKER_01

And it sounds like you had a good experience doing an adaptation of someone's life with them involved because obviously that can get tricky, they can get really opinionated, really involved. They forget they're hiring you as an expert who knows how to do this and working with source material and the source. It's a tricky situation. So I'm glad to hear that it went well.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and by the way, just so I can be a little less positive and a little more real. Um I I wish fucking that every executive that hired me felt that I might be an expert in my craft and know what I'm trying to do and blah, blah, blah. And I do think there's a world where writers are are um are seen as the obstacle between a producer and a great script, like that the writer is the obstacle in the way. And if the writer would just fucking move, the great script would appear. And um I would I would love to see a little bit more uh I don't know, kindness uh. Yeah, I think. But so you're not a writer, what are you? Uh what are you trying to do? Podcaster, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

This, thank you for asking. Actually, I am a currently I'm a content creator, marketing coordinator, whatever. Um, and I've got a full-time job, and then I have some part-time clients that I work for. And the goal is to get back to an assistant coordinator role, working for a producer or creative executive or someone with any kind of deal. So actually, my doing this is a teensy bit selfish besides just wanting to learn because I feel I feel like there's a lot of gatekeeping, but it's also to help me uh get to know people so that they can get to know me because the phrase is usually it's about who you know, it's about who remembers you. So yeah, but that's I love talking to people.

SPEAKER_03

I started off bad because aka already forgot me and I was on him like two weeks ago.

SPEAKER_01

The fact that you guys already met and we that was wonderful, but that's my teeny little spiel I'll give. But I want to talk about Baywatch because for anyone who doesn't know, it's you know it's if I have this correctly, because I don't even know if it's like finished filming yet. All I know is that Shay Mitchell is in it from Pretty Little Liar, so I will be watching it. It's a revival of the original.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

With the basics and in the ocean. And how did you get this job? And can you describe what you know what's the vibe?

SPEAKER_03

I yeah, look, if I'm allowed to just kind of gush for a second.

SPEAKER_01

Please do.

SPEAKER_03

How did I get the job? Uh, very simply. Uh I was Matt Nix's assistant on a different show called True Lies. Uh, and then uh the writer's strike happened, I ended up getting a different job. Matt had a deal with or had has a deal with Fox and developed a few shows. And uh Matt has always been a really great guy to me, um, like a mentory figure. I don't know if he knows that. Yeah, shout out Matt. He's um cool, but you have to tell him that I said he was a cool guy. But uh, you know, I he's been very generous with um, you know, kind of allowing me to stay active in his development. And and so when Baywatch came up as an opportunity, you know, we were I was I basically told him I was like, look, man, I would do anything to make this work. So I mean, like, look, a writer's assistant, generally speaking, is a note taker. You are taking notes of everything that happens in the room, you're compiling those notes at the end of the day. Um, Matt and I have a good working relationship, and I used to note his call, do his notes calls even on True Lies and other things. So uh I've always been just adept at taking notes from Matt and putting them into his scripts. Uh a beauty of this room and just how generous everyone is is we all really are pitching constantly and talking constantly and really has no ego. Like he used to take he took notes from PAs. Like he doesn't mean always do them, but he'll listen to the note and be like, oh, huge. And I love that. And and like and he gives credit for it too. Like, um, yeah, he's he's a good dude, honestly.

SPEAKER_01

He sounds like the normal kind of executive or show what what's his title?

SPEAKER_03

So he's a showrunner, he's a showrunner, so he's a writer. Uh, he created Bird Notice was his big his big show, and then he went to Trues. Yeah, Bird Notice Rock watching that.

SPEAKER_01

That's incredible. I don't know if I should have grown up watching that, but I did. I know what it is.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, we could have a whole different conversation. I know, let's not go there. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

But Bird Notice Rocks and Baywatch is, yeah, Matt is doing Baywatch. And so basically I told him not to do anything for the show, and yeah, yeah, yeah. Right persistence take notes. Um, I I usually lay notes in from, you know, Fox gives us notes, Freeman gives us notes, I lay them into scripts, and and just kind of again a benefit of Matt and the generosity of the room is then we pitch on them. I'm happy to.

SPEAKER_01

The phrase lay them into no into scripts or whatever you just say. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03

Like, yeah, thank you. Um literally like type them into the uh script. Or uh, you know, we use final drafts, so I put them in the final draft and I say, hey, like maybe this note can be addressed here, um, stuff like that. Um we're a very visual room, so it's a lot of putting stuff up on walls and finding blueprints, doing research. You end up doing a lot of research, especially with a show like Baywatch, where it's lifeguards and like, you know, we really wanna but but I it's funny, you know, I've only worked in rooms really actually, like the only rooms I've ever been in is with Matt. Otherwise, I've been writing by myself or um uh as an executive. Uh and so I don't know how other rooms do it, but like I'm it sounds like a beautiful work relationship. Yeah, some room is really supportive and great. It really is. I'm fortunate enough to be involved in like every aspect of of our filmmaking. And and I think I'm very lucky to have had this weird career where I've been in jokingly, I'd say like showrunner training for 10 years because I 12 years I started in post and then I did uh production and then I did development, uh, and now finally fucking writing. Um I've kind of hit Every aspect of the film production process, and I've gotten to learn a lot about it. And and then with Baywatch specifically, like what we're just trying to do is like every day we're just trying to make like the coolest, sexiest show that we can make. When we talk about like broken ladders and the state of the industry and the kind of complaints, like, and it's not fair to put this all on the back of like a handful of shows, but like with Baywatch specifically, we are just so fucking devoted to like making this feel like an LA victory and an LA win, which is why, like before I was involved, I take no credit for this. I couldn't if I wanted to, but like getting the show to film in LA is like such a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00

So, so so important.

SPEAKER_03

So big. And it's because of that that we've actually gotten to get like an amazing crew because we have so many amazingly talented people who fucking live here and aren't working. Yeah. Um, because they want to work, but like from a business point of view, also it's actually like they are the best at it. Like they are so fucking good at it. Like, and like because this is a town that is about that, so everyone here like is good at this and very experienced and trying. And like for this show, the thing we realized that we should do an you know, I mean, people know that I was like in the news and stuff, but like do an open casting call.

SPEAKER_04

So we did.

SPEAKER_03

We did a real proper open casting call, like 3,000 people came. And I'm I'm annoyed that I can't say more about it, but like 100% hiring people from it. And I just want people to know it works, it does work. Like, yes, like whatever bad vibe is in the air of like maybe we're not hiring people. I promise you we're hiring people, and we're thinking about them all the time. When you don't get a job, and when you get a job, I think it's really important to remember that luck was a big part of this. When you don't get a job, you feel horrible. You feel like, oh, I didn't get it because I'm not good enough or because of this or because of that. The reality is the only thing you know is that you didn't get the job. And the same is true when you get a job. You think you got it because you're the best, because you're you gave the best interview, you're the smartest, you're the prettiest, whatever you think it is. That's that could be true, but that's not definitely true. The fact is you got the job. And I think it's very important for all of us to remember when we do and do not get jobs, that like it is so barely a reflection of you in any way, shape, or form. And so, like, when you don't get a job, beating yourself up is not helpful and feeling like cursing the darkness is not helpful. And when you get a job, the humility of like, I'm so lucky to be here needs to be ingrained in you to it to a degree.

SPEAKER_01

Besides your relationship with this show, I'm curious to know what trends you're seeing in television and film that are exciting you right now.

SPEAKER_03

There's two things. One uh is the push towards like anime in the general zeitgeist, but I could feel when I was an exec, I had this kind of feeling like, oh, I think this is the next wave. And then I was right. So I just like that. Um, purely selfishly. I just like feeling like I was on the pulse. But the other thing is uh is video games. I think we are actually now seeing the movement uh towards like video game adaptations made by people who love them. And I think that that's cool. I love when people love things. The other thing I'm really excited about is I do feel we're moving towards what I would consider like classic television tropes in the sense where I think we're realizing that people actually love like a closed one-episode story, like a procedural element thing. I think we for a long time have you heard of um the Surf Ninja metaphor?

SPEAKER_01

No, I haven't really metaphor, I guess.

SPEAKER_03

But so, okay, someone on Reddit, I don't know, came up with a a great analogy. Um that basically the idea was that in the 90s, if there was a show called Surf Ninja, every episode he would surf in and like solve a crime with ninja talent and then like surf away.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

But if but if they made that show now, he would get his surfboard in like episode eight and it'd be the season finale. And it basically, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. Like basically this idea that we've kind of really tried to force TV into becoming extended movies, which is sometimes awesome. Like there are shows that do that that are fucking amazing, and I would wouldn't trade them for the world. But at the same time, I think we put so much energy towards that we forgot that the kind of backbone of TV and and and what we were doing when we were, you know, created uh was was to one, well, be uh to service audiences. Like we are there to do what audiences are.

SPEAKER_01

We are here to entertain.

SPEAKER_03

We are here to entertain. And like I do, like I'm a huge proponent of hiding medicine and then like trying to put like some kind of like themes and questions and challenges into your art. But you also do need to get people to watch it. Yeah. And so I think like finding that balance is kind of what TV is about. And I think a big element of what TV was originally about was bite-sized stories that feel complete in their one bite. And yeah, you know, I think we're seeing people like really flock to shows like High Potential, which is like doing so well. Oh, I love high potential. I'm yeah, I think I think part of why we're seeing people flock to that is because it is a modern version of a very classic recipe that we've been ignoring for too long. And the classic recipe is like, hey, interesting character solving something in a procedure every week. Whatever. All to say, like we are seeing this return to what I would consider like classic television that I'm actually genuinely excited about. And I really do, just to plug my own shit, think Baywatch will fit nicely into. Yeah. Because, you know, there's not a lot of shows that are like, hey, man, this is exciting and fun and sexy and cool, and you'll feel satisfied in 42 minutes. Like, how rare is that on TV right now?

SPEAKER_01

I do have to say, to plug my favorite show, Law and Order SVU, I think does a really good job of having great episodes that are just one-offs and you feel really satisfied. They know what you're there for, and it wraps up with a perfect little bow. But then there's also great episodes that have like excellent flashback moments and stuff that comes up, and they just do such a good job of being like, wow. I think sometimes it is cool to have a show that has just a little movie going on in it and then it's done, and then you never hear about it again. But when does Baywatch um premiere? When does it come out?

SPEAKER_03

We don't have a set air date yet. Um, we'll probably know in a couple weeks, actually. Uh but yeah, right now, fall.

SPEAKER_01

My last question for you do what like what are you hoping to do in your next career move? Obviously, you have this good relationship with Matt. So I'm imagining maybe you want to build off of that. Obviously, when people are working on a show, you hope you just, you know, you have your off season and then you go back, but what's on your mind?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's so I mean, so look, all I need is for Baywatch to run for 20 years, and I can be in it's a small ask. I would love to do Baywatch and then get to take my little off seasons and write my features, Baywatch features, Baywatch features, Baywatch features, and then I'll probably die. What a beautiful world it will be. And but I'll be it, I'll have had such a great time.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for making time to talk with me. Your insight is so helpful and insightful.

SPEAKER_03

I hope, I hope, I hope no one is as good as me, but everyone's almost as good.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah, we'll see you. Thankfully, everyone knows how to have a conversation. Cool. Okay. One mega two, mega two, mega arena. Thanks for listening. I had a really great time speaking with Alec today. He made me remember my why for being here. And I hope that you learned something and felt energized. If you want to be a guest, if you want to talk about something, if you have a joyful story, I would love to talk to you. And I'm excited to see what you think of it because you haven't even listened to it.

SPEAKER_02

I haven't listened to it yet. That's the problem with these things. I don't hear what's going on until we're in editing. But I am so excited to hear this episode, and I hope you enjoyed it too. See you all in the next one.