Banker by day, DJ at night, now she’s a music supervisor - Olivia Schlichting

Olivia Schlichting is part of the Los Angeles based music supervision team at SuperMusicVision, whose credits include television series Better Call Saul (AMC), Poker Face (Peacock), Mayfair Witches (AMC), Your Honor (Showtime), Space Force (Netflix), Guilty Party (Paramount+), Cowboy Bebop (Netflix).

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Hollywood Blueprint. Why another episode? Because I forgot what number we're on. We've done a lot, and I am so happy that we're continuing. If you're ever wondering who's responsible for making you feel the way you do while you're watching your favorite shows, taking you on those emotional roller coaster rides, well, it's in part the job of the music supervisor.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Today I'm speaking with Olivia Schlichting, and she's a music supervisor whose credits include Poker Face, Better Call Saul, Mayfair Witches, Your Honor, Space Force, and Cowboy Beep. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

That's quite the rapport that she has there. I can't wait to hear what she has to say.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I'm good with that.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Hello? Hello. Hi.

unknown 0:52

Hi.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

How are you? Good. How are you doing? Good. Okay. Let me make sure. Yeah, I can hear. Okay. Oh, bye. I've never spoken to a music supervisor before. So this is cool. I had a lot of fun doing the research.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Yes. No, I I actually like just appreciate even the openness to include it in like your crafts. Cause it's yeah, you know, it's not uh it's not like so well known as a job.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

That's fair. That's fair. You know, that's also like why why we're doing this, because I'm like, there's a lot of jobs out there people don't know about. And I'm also learning a lot about stuff I've literally never thought of. And every time I watch something, I'm like, oh, I'm so emotional. I'm like, that's why. Okay, Olivia Schlichting, welcome to the Hollywood Blueprint. How are you doing today? I'm doing good.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah. Super excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, I'm really excited because I know nothing about music supervision, and getting to know you has been an interesting research journey for me. And oh my gosh, you don't even realize like these roles that are behind the jobs that like bring the human experience to life on screen. So I'm very excited to talk to you about your career journey.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Yay! Yeah, it's a it's a weird job. I didn't even know it existed until I moved to LA. I'll admit that.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Heck yeah. Okay, so like let's just get right into it. What first pulled you toward music supervision, specifically like, you know, when did you know this was the right lane for you to go down in entertainment?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, great question. I mean, my career journey is a super long, windy story. Um, but you know, I always kind of had in the back of my mind like film and TV and like entertainment world um and storytelling, I guess. You know, I think that's that's how I grew up. I wanted to make plays and write things, and you know, the first scripts I ever wrote were based on music uh songs, so like music videos. So it kind of was always there, and I always, you know, had just an obsession with music and you know, involved in the music community and stuff, but I never figured I would be in the music business because I'm not really a musician and you know didn't really like consider that path at all. Um, even though I like did yeah, radio DJ stuff and you've done some really odd roles.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Like I saw you even worked in like HR and you were like in banking for a few years. I'm like you, you we've all been around the block, but that is definitely a detour. Did any of those experiences contribute to you getting to where you are now?

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, oh my god, for sure. I think you know, I didn't have the the traditional school route either. So for me it was a lot of like trial and error, and I think a lot of those, you know, jobs that I've done, and I've always been that kind of person that has like two or three jobs, and you know, like that sometimes. Yes. So like from the very beginning, just exploring things, and I think all those experiences kind of led me to this. Um, you know, it is a very challenging job. So a lot of those like heavy admin type of gigs, and you know, just being like thrown into HR, for example, which is dealing with a lot of personalities, you know, a lot of diplomacy and like, you know, human politics, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

And then like on the side, you're like mixing something like HR here and then music there.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I mean, it is, it's like this job has two sides, really. It's like admin heavy to the the crazy, like a crazy amount because of the clearance paperwork and everything involved in that. But then you also have the creative side where you're like digging into characters and um like it's very both sides of the brain, I would say. You know, and budget. It's about numbers too.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So I have like accounting experience and um a lot of these jobs, people don't I don't think people realize how much is required to just like know how to work with an Excel spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah, yeah, like deliver deliver budget reports on time.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Oh my gosh, deadlines, like what time is it? Is there a skill outside of music that you think you know someone should be aware of or that really helped you, or just in general being an organized person and aware of all of the moving parts?

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Yeah, great question. I think that um, you know, just being able to work fast is uh the key thing because I think uh with the economics of this job, you have to work several shows at a time. A lot of people work in TV too, because that's where the money is because we're not unionized. So it's like episodic fee versus like okay, one film fee. Um, so a lot of people work on TV. I think, you know, there's only there's a few handful of people that just work in films, but um at least in narrative, there's obviously a bunch of different medias, like you know, video games, ads, trailers. So, you know, there's worlds to this. But I think I think with TV it's um yeah, I don't know. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

No, I love it. And I love to I love when I find someone who has such an interesting background that's just like you can come into your job in Hollywood, New York, wherever you go in any way, but it's actually really fun to Easter egg hunt for people who have like an HR upbringing, for example, or like something that's just like that doesn't make any sense. How did you go from HR to music supervisor? But then I see, oh, DJ got it. There was like something.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, and I studied screenwriting and did like script reading for a while, and you know, really tried to pursue that at some point, and then like you know, it it took moving to LA to like actually get into, you know, like a does. Yes. So like I didn't really know what the you know TV world looked like at large until you're like in it. Um that's when I, you know, realized like, oh, like I I went the talent agency route when I got here. So I was which one? WPA, um worldwide production agency. It's a below the line agency, and I will say it was a great place to land for my first job. It was like a crash course, you know, and and not necessarily one of the big ones that are just soul sucking. Um you know, but I'm definitely not made to be an agent. Like I knew that from the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

So yeah, you're just like money, please.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

So please, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

I mean, I it was fun learning that mainline uh phone though. Like, you know, it was just it was really crazy. And then um, you know, moving up and working with the CFO there um was valuable. Yeah, and you you just learn a lot about how the industry works, I think, in in that absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I'm really I mean, I it's however you find your way is always, you know, it's just you do what you gotta do, you know. If that's agency route, great. For me, it was physical production. You you make it work, you've got some horror stories, you've got some joyful stories, whatever. But I don't meet a lot of people or have a lot of people in my life who grew up going, music supervisor, that is my job, you know. You think like other things, but what exactly does a music supervisor do?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, I mean, uh another great question because I get asked this a lot. Um, and I feel like I still try to explain to my parents on a daily basis, but you know, it's it's a it's an interesting role. Um, the easiest way I kind of say is like every department has a head, and we're like the head of the music department. So anything you hear on screen or see like musicians playing or anything, um, we probably have a hand in that. Um, so really it goes from pre-production to the very end. Sometimes we're the last people on it, like doing the song licensing paperwork and the soundtrack stuff.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Um I bet you've had a lot of 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, it's not really a nine to five.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

No, most of these jobs are not nine to five.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah, exactly. But you know, I'm not complaining. It's it's like every day is different. And I think, you know, I hear so I work with Thomas Gulovich and I'm super lucky to be on his team, but he's been in the industry for decades, and I've heard him say so many times, just like, you know, I've never encountered this before. Wow. You know, there's there's weird problems you have to solve every day, and a lot of it has to do with music clearance or you know, some random thing on camera that we need to fix, or but I love hearing that your he's the it's his company.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

He runs.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, Super Music Vision is uh where I work and he started this company years ago.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Incredible. But I love I'm in my head, I imagine that your boss, who's the head of the company, owns the company, whatever his thing is, hearing him say, huh, this is a new one must be really cool because that's the idea we that we're in this business in part because we don't want any day to be the same as the day before, and you want new and interesting challenges, and this is all like a puzzle piece. So for him to still be like surprised, that must be cool because you're like, Great, we're learning something new.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah, and it kind of you know builds us as a team, I think. Because when you're like, especially creatively, I think if you're being challenged with a scene and we can't get it right, you know, working together and being like, Wow, I've never had this like sort of problem with a character or um, you know, just interesting, like hunting for certain lyrics or something.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Um yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so let's pull it back for like five seconds because you said that you've read you've done like script stuff. When you were reading a script for a, you know, doing your job, finding music, yeah, yeah. What immediately tells you a scene needs a very specific song versus score or just complete silence?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I mean, breaking down the scripts when we receive them is like one of my favorite things to do because yeah, I think from a story like uh perspective, like analyzing what makes it good is like I don't know, just one of my favorite things to do. And so yeah, when we get a script, I'm reading for it, but like picturing it obviously, and thinking, okay, like is this a character moment? Is there space in the in like written into the script for music here? Um, you know, and if we don't know with if it's gonna be score or song, uh, we just put it in our you know, cues table and track it for later. A lot of times what we do is like, okay, this might be a brainstorm idea, but what we really need to know is the stuff that we need to know for pre-production. So that's like, you know, on camera stuff. Like if there's a band playing or someone's whistling or someone's singing a drunk shanty, um, you know, whatever it is, you need to like, you know, figure that out and clear it prior to shooting. So those are like, you know, priority spots. But then there's also this just the tone question of it all. Um, and I think that's also what really intrigues me about the job is talking to the showrunners, directors, and producers, just you know, about like what do you want this show to be like? And music is a big part of that, I think, and uh score, obviously. And we usually have a hand in hiring uh the composer as well. So it's usually a broad conversation about like what what does this story sound like, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, yeah. You you are responsible for people's tears and also their joy and their gasps, like all right, all of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, and how much of that we want to like, you know, put the gas on. Like you want therapy, we'll give you therapy. Yeah, exactly. Like we're gonna be bawling in this moment. We want everyone to cry like they've never cried before. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Okay, so how early into a project does a music supervisor ideally want to be involved? And I imagine that's a maybe that's a hard question to answer because I imagine with a lot of creative opinions, it's like you're working with a I don't know if you're working with a script that is, I'm assuming it's done, but then also like people want to have a say in it.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I mean, to me, it's an easy question to answer as early as humanly possible. Because I mean, people like are in the writer's room and they're writing in songs that they don't understand what will take to clear. Um, and so for us, it's like sometimes it is an education process. Like, you know, we can't just write Led Zeppelin in here without thinking of like what it's going to uh mean for our budget and it if they'll even clear it, because like they frequently design deny. So just because you have the budget doesn't even mean that you'll get the song. Um so that kind of stuff. And I think people don't also recognize you have to like pay for, you know, if you say a song lyric in dialogue. Wait, what? Yeah, I mean you can reference a song name, that's not a big deal, but like if yeah, you're you know quoting a song, essentially you have to pay for that publishing because someone has the copyright to that lyric.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Right. Okay, so I'm there's a story maybe of some a time when you had a script or like when has that happened where you've see seen that written down or it was in the scene, you're like, you can't do that. We don't have I mean so many times. The rights it's like it's rampant. Have you ever said like re film it?

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah, well, we you know, if we don't catch it in time or they're ad living on set, for sure we've had had to be like, you have to either cut this or we need to shell out the money for this uh this publishing on this song.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Um wow, you would think that's something people would think about. I guess that's why you bring a music supervisor on as early as possible.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

And clearance people. I mean, there music isn't the only thing you have to clear.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Well, yeah, paintings and all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

And we're also like sort of responsible for like, okay, we see an album art over there from a record. Um like, did you get permission from that artist?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Oh, like if you're in a living room and you see a record player or something and you're like, we see the album art. Do you want to make sure that's kosher? Yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Okay. Yeah, like and if you see like a phonograph needle, like do we see the artwork? Um, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Okay. So it's not just the actual sound. That's cool though. So which departments, you know, if you're getting in as early as possible, who is it you're specifically working with?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we work really closely with the like post team. Um, I feel like because, you know, our post producers are kind of like our go-to people to bug, I would say. Um, and they're usually on pretty early, even though it's not in post yet. Um, but yeah, it's it's the creators really. It's like whoever hired us. Well, I mean, yeah, that's fair. Direct directors too, like even on a TV show, we're collaborating with whoever's vision is happening with that storyline, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah. Are there I want to say that it can be hard to work with a lot of people if there's a lot of people involved, people who want. I'm imagining the creative team will say, We want this kind of music, we want this to feel like super emotional. And then they say, We don't, you say, like, well, you don't have the money for that. This is what we can do instead, and then you get into a whole argument.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Is that what a day in the life is like?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I mean, yeah, I mean, you're not wrong. It's a lot of breaking hearts over things that people can't get, you know, and it's um, you know, it can be frustrating, I think, for creators to be like, but I don't understand why I can't have, you know, House of the Rising Sun here or something. Like and then you're like, yeah, but um, you know, and and the studio dictates the budget, obviously, on these uh big budget things. So yeah, we don't really have a say in how much money we're spending, but you know, that's also part of our job is to negotiate with the labels and publishers and you know, licensors or in the artists, you know, to try and fit it in the budget. So we try to make everybody's dreams come true. I really have uh, I don't know, it's it's hard for me to say no, that's not gonna happen, you know, clearance-wise. So I tend to go on crazy scavenger hunts and you know, try to like make it happen for them for sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Um, but yeah, it's a lot of like it's a lot of uh subjective arguments too, like, you know, everybody has different music taste and um oh my gosh, knowledge of music. And so sometimes I think for me at least the most fun projects I've been on are the people who just kind of sit back and let us do our job.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

That is what a beautiful goal. I feel like that is how it's supposed to be. Like you and they knock on your door and like, okay, we're here to listen with you. And you're like, no, you're not.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

No, usually they're like, Well, this is when it's not fun, is when they're like, wait, but I have this really, really great idea on my playlist of 20 songs. And then you're like, wait, but like, is that really servicing the story? Yeah, is it relevant? And can we explore more things? Like more genres, like more interesting. I don't know, like, yeah, Thomas and I have um have spent a lot of hours talking about, you know, why a song isn't working or why it is working. And um, a lot of that goes into it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

I I can only imagine, I feel like that would break my brain as someone who just doesn't innately understand that the way my head works with music. The other day, I even thought, like, wow, there's so much of original music that comes out. How is it not all it like kind of sounds the same, but it's not, and then someone was like, Well, there's math involved, so that when you make a song, it's not the exact same thing as someone else's. And I'm like, What?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just a whole new world. It is, and the content right now of just the amount of music out there is like staggering and a bit overwhelming sometimes. Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

But so, okay, you mentioned how people will, you know, music searching is a whole is I'm imagining it's a very large part of your job. How do you approach searching for music if it's like a period piece versus a contemporary show?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah, super great question. I think, you know, and this is another sort of unknown part of the job that people don't realize is just the sheer amount of people we need to contact in order to do our job. So not only are we on like the film side of stuff, but we also know a lot of people in the music industry. So when we have a specific search, we have our like go-to people to like be like, okay, we need a song from the 1940s that is in this tempo and is a woman singing about, you know, cooking. That is specific, you know, and and it's it's like we don't have enough time in the day to be, we do go on our own and search for music on our own, like any anything goes really, but efficiency-wise, it's so great to know who first would have that catalog that you you know, vintage stuff from the 40s, and then you know, who would have, I don't know, anyway. So you're just you're kind of pulling from different areas and and calling on people who you know are uh fast, efficient, trustworthy, you know, can clear the song. Um, you know, and so yeah, we have a we have a very large database of people we can call on. And contemporary is super fun because you know, there's a lot of labels and publishers out there that only do contemporary stuff. So I think that is more flooded, I would say, than like vintage stuff. Um so you do get kind of like, yeah, again, it's a scavenger hunt. It's like like a, I don't know, I feel like a detective sometimes. Yeah. Um, but it's super fun and and with our friends' help, you know, it becomes like this group effort, really, you know, and and everybody in the sync departments just big shout out to them because um they their job isn't easy either. And they get, you know, a massive amount of searches every day. And um, you know, it takes years and years to get to know your own catalog to a point where you like can pitch the right music for that spot.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

I imagine. What software or how do you organize your catalog and what's available to you?

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Oh boy, really another question. Media management is hard. Um, you know, a lot of people in the industry now use disco, um, which is a platform that like is in the cloud. Um, prior to that, we used this program called Swinsian and you know, iTunes before that. Oh my gosh, iTunes, stop it. I know. No thing. Does that even exist anymore? It does, yes. And some music supervisors. Think still use it. But most of them are, you know, living in the cloud now, I think. And from disco, I'm now sort of migrating over to Cordle, which is my new f favorite platform because it's just, you know, it's a new and exciting sort of way to look at you know your playlists and like think creatively. Cause you know, I'm a visual person too. So I just to have your different playlists of like, okay, here's the show, but then you've you've narrowed it down to like, you know, sad moments, happy moments, tense moments, action moments. Um you know, and then yeah, and that's every show has its own identity, kind of. So yeah. You start all over when you start a new season, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Oh my gosh. Wait, side note when you said the sad, happy moments in my head. Um do you know the like little jingle like happy llama, sad llama, mentally depressed llama?

SPEAKER_02 22:57

No, but I want to.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

What is that? I don't know. One of it came up in my mind. I was like, Yes, I'll find it and send it to you later.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

And I'm imagining some really funky video to go with.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

It's just like something with your hand, and you're like, happy llama, sad llama, mentally upset, llama, mama drama, something like that. It's just funny, but I thought of that. But is it a way to deal with your emotion? I think there's just one of those like kid jingles to do with your hands when you're waiting in line for ice cream or something. But I also imagine that you, your Spotify wrapped must be crazy because you must find and listen to so much, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

The Spotify rapped is a thing that people share. Um, mine is kind of messed up because of my job, that's for sure. A little bit unforge, but that's okay. Yeah, I mean, really, because I can go on a deep end into you know, smooth jazz or something, and then that's all it wants to play for a while. Oh no, you know, just random stuff like throat singing or something. You're like, I don't really need to have that be playing in my Discover Weekly.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah. Is there a project you worked on where you felt the music like genuinely transform the storytelling?

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Oh man, I mean, music is so important. I like I want to say all of them. Yeah. I'm gonna shout out a TV show that no one has seen. Okay, great start, great start. But and I don't even think you can watch it on Paramount anymore. I think they took it off. Um, but Guilty Party with Kate Beckinsale was so interesting with the music. I think why it was fun is just the team was so open to like any genre, and there's just everything from like country hip hop, I don't know, like random sounding songs with like vocalizations, and you're just like, this is so fun to work on. Um, and I really think it made it fun, like it made it a really fun show to watch.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

And it does it no longer exists, or well, it I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I feel like I tried to watch it and it was you can't even find it. Where did it go? Why did it go? Why don't they give you the DVD when you work on something, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah. Well, that's that's I'm happy for you, but that's sad to know, and no one else can see what this I know. I should find some different answer. Um no, my gosh. It's just that's not so someone watches it.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, maybe I could say Get Millie Black is is a really interesting show to watch for the music because it's like a dark Jamaican like crime drama. Okay. Um so yeah, we just I think that was really fun to work on too because you know, you think of typical Jamaican reggae as just being like super happy, but like that's not what we did at all. And I think you know, the music is very interesting in that and super fun to that was fun to work on too. Yeah, a whole new world.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Okay, well, speaking of shows, you've worked on projects like Better Call Saul, Poker Face, and Cowboy Beepop. I'm wondering what's been the biggest lesson from working across such different tones and genres for you.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is I really like working on comedies because if you're watching a scene over and over and over. You laugh, you can laugh six different ways. Exactly. It's just way more enjoyable if you're laughing.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Oh my god, watching like the most depressing scene, you're like, when does it end?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yes, or violent. It can be very like draining, you know, especially like, well, I probably shouldn't talk about shows I'm working on right now, but um when yeah, when you're dealing with really intense subject matter and like oh boy, it's like it can be very um emotionally intense um because you're pulling at your emotions all day, every day in this job. And so it can be really, it can be really draining, is what I'll say. I don't know if that's a lesson, but maybe protect your peace. Um and how do how do you do that? Um taking breaks, I think, and realizing getting deadlines, like realizing not everything is urgent, and if you have an extra day to listen for a scene, like take it. You know, if I'm too hungry, I haven't eaten or like slept a lot, you know, nothing sounds good. Like I'll be, you know, watching a scene, especially if it's a difficult one, and then like you're just nothing fits because you're in a horrible mood. Right, and then it's all just mush in your ears. Yeah, you're like, this sucks, I can't do this, you know, like it's nothing sounds right. So yeah, that's that's time when you should like step away for a little bit or like do some cue sheets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Your cues to go be a human, put your feet in grass, touch, touch grass, touch, I was gonna say touch air. Okay, or just like do some paperwork. That's not that's your way of decompressing doing paperwork.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Well, you gotta like switch it up, and there's a lot of paperwork to do. So oh gosh. But yes, I do I love being outside, and you know, I live next to Griffith Park, so I do I do try to get outside. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Okay, I'm jealous of that. That's incredible. You don't have to pay for parking. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

I can just walk there.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Amazing. Okay, I want to spotlight Cowboy Beepop because it's one of the few shows where audiences treat the soundtrack almost like it's another cast member, which I love. And I I'll be honest, I had to watch a couple of the things that you've worked on to get an understanding of it because obviously there is so much out there and you can't possibly just do it all. But one of the things that I love about hosting this podcast is that I get to learn about work that I've never heard of. And I hadn't heard of Cowboy Beep Bop until I just like just met you and discovered you and learned about your work. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like such an iconic show. Did working on a project with I mean, it has this crazy musical legacy. Did it change how you think about your job and supervision?

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yes, 100%. And honestly, this was my first like thrown in the deep end project because you know, it was it was right when I started with Thomas, and like no one on the team had time. So it was, I just was sort of like, okay, Ann, we're doing this, you know, and and just kind of learning as I went a little bit. Um, but was really fun and honestly one of my dream sort of projects to work on in general, like sci-fi, weird, anything goes, you know, it takes place 500 years in the future. So like musically, that is just so exciting. Yeah, um, you are creating the future, yes, and it was just it was quirky, like, and it's very, very rare for you to send, you know, a playlist of 10 to 15 songs or something, and for the team to pick the weirdest option every time. Yes. I just loved that and it was so much fun to work on. And yeah, I mean, Yoko Kano, the um composer, is uh just like a genius, an absolute genius. She, yeah, it there was a lot of logistical, I would say, hurdles with that project. Um, but it we we worked on the live action adaptation of the anime. She had never worked on sort of like a project like this before. So it was it was like essentially we were laying the tapestry of the series for her to write music to. Um, but she doesn't do like, you know, in the box demos. She doesn't do, and that means like like without a band. So all of her demos are live and we had to track all of those costs in yen. Oh, wow. Um, yes, and translating was a whole thing. Um, you know, and translating uh musical feelings is so interesting. Um it was just it was a fascinating process. Um but anyway, so we we yeah, that was a really intensely difficult project, I think, for a lot of reasons. But for me, it was like it was just so exciting to have a first a blank slate. Like if you went into an episode, you know, every I don't know how much you know about the show, but every episode kind of has like a an identity to it. Like there's like a clown episode, and there's like a western. So like you kind of get to dive in musically in different ways, I think, with each of those. So we got to lay down like temp tracks, so really songs that like spoke to the scene, and it was super fun. Um, because those characters are so well written and just exciting, and I love the storylines. Wow, that's incredible! Yeah, but but you know, once once Yoko got her hands into it, it was like okay, she's she's gonna do a song for this scene and this scene and this scene, and but it was so exciting to see her sort of interpret like our creative like musicality in that particular episode, um, and then make it her own and like do it in a jazz way, like she works with an amazing jazz fan. I love that that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

I love that. I love jazz, so that sounds very exciting. Yeah, and being able to work with people where your brains are so different and you come from such different worlds, but then you have the same group think is so cool. It's so cool to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

There's a very special.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I know you worked on um better. I mean, you worked on your slate is kind of impressive, let's be honest. But I know Better Call Saul. I I have tried watching an episode. It is not for me, but it's interesting to look up these shows and their involvement in relationship with music. And I know you worked on season six where they very sparingly use music. And I'm wondering what that is like for you on the other side of things, where it's like not a show that's using music a lot. So, like, what's it like to be a music supervisor on something that it's just like it's almost like a desert?

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that team in general is so thoughtful in every little thing that happens on screen. So I think you know, and I was coming into it sort of like I don't know, uh a newly adopted child into like a very like, you know, and like intricately just bonded family, I think. Um, so it was really interesting from my perspective to sort of just be like hitched along for the ride a little bit. But the music was really fun because I think you know, they take our ideas very seriously, and not all teams will put that amount of time and effort into like discussing why a song doesn't work or it does work. So yeah, what was your original cut question? Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I wouldn't answer anything. I love that. I love that. No, I'm just wondering what it's like to go from working on a show that's so heavily relies on excellent music to draw out the emotion, and then there's some shows like Better Call Saul where it's used so sparingly, there's a restraint involved. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Well, in the score too. So you know, um, and this is one of the few shows uh that I've ever heard of that don't use temp score. Um and what is temp score? Good question. So when you are delivering cuts, so there's like the editor cut, the director cut, producer cut, network, you know, that you're delivering all these cuts, but sometimes you're not for far enough along in the post-production process to know what to do with the music yet. So they'll put like temp temporary score into it, like um, okay, we know that this is a tense moment, so we're just gonna put in like some strings here. And it's it could be like, I mean, this is a totally different team, but like if you're working on a pilot, for example, you don't have a composer yet, you're gonna be putting in all different types of score from a bunch of different shows and movies. And so you're just sort of like you have this mishmash of sound, right? But like to get your concept across to whoever you're delivering your cut to, it's important, you know, to see what it'll look like in the final go.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

If that's got it, got it. Wow, that's um but anyway.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

This is the yeah, this is the only show I've worked on where we don't use that. So when we go into a music spot, it's completely silent. They have delivered their cuts, it's now locked, but there's no music, and it is so great because you can just it's a blank slate and it could be score, it could be a song. So then they talk about it, and you know, it's it's really interesting. And it I think yeah, and to your point, the story works without music, so you don't need to plaster it with a bunch of music.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Does that make it does that make it seem difficult to find the right thing because music is so scarce that you really want to pick the right thing?

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Yeah, I think it puts a lot of um like weight into our choices, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Sure. Yeah, like I hope it makes sense. Please make sense.

unknown 35:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

For the love of all that is good, make it you're trying to enhance the story, right? So you're just like, okay, what is this doing right now to it? Is it is it making it worse? Yeah, okay. You know, it's just it's a fascinating process.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Were you involved with there's like two iconic music scenes that come to mind for Bedou Call Saul, and I'm assuming you were involved with the perfect day montage and then episode one, Wine and Roses. Were you involved with those? To talk to me about them. So for people who don't know, the perfect day montage became one of the most discussed musical moments in the final season because it's this really hopeful song contrasting with this really like unraveling relationship. And then the other side, the opening scene of Better Call Saul, Wine and Roses is considered iconic for its like artistic and melancholy, the vibe it gives is artistic and melancholy. Not me trying to explain music, not knowing anything about music. That's hilarious. But it's sharing the aftermath of Saul Goodman's life. And I just want to like talk about how your involvement and your thoughts on them because they were very discussed. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, I think in these two cases, both of these were discussed really early on. And and so when I say, oh, we we you know spot a music, uh, an episode for music, like these two in particular had already been discussed, like prior to shooting. Well, I'm yeah, I think prior to shooting, like they were they were very much an early-on decision um because they were so important at those moments. So yeah, the editors like cut to those songs really. Although in the case of The Perfect Day, that was we knew we wanted a cover of um Harry Nielsen's song, but we didn't have it yet. So we ended up sending out like a wide sort of brief to a bunch of different, you know, friends, companies who we know would have artists that would be interested in working on it. And we were very specific about like, okay, you know, it needs to be this long in the intro, it needs to switch at this second, and then switch at this second. Oh wow. It was it was a very intense process of like, you know, first instructing how the song should go and then and then listening to all the submissions and you know, still trying to like the song by the end of that process. Oh my gosh. Um yeah, that was that was a lot of that was a lot of hours um listening to different versions of songs.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

I mean, clearly the meticulous effort that was put into it paid off. So congrats. But that sounds wow, what a what a project.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

That moment was really intense working on, I will say, because something I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen the show, but a really intensely violent, you know, horrible thing happened like the episode before. Um and so it was just it was very heavy. Like, and like you said, it's it's a it's the song in nature is positive, but it has such a melancholy. That's why we wanted a cover of it because we wanted to feel that weight and just how far away we were from like a perfect day, you know. It was just like it was, yeah, that was that was intense. I I love I love working with that team.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Now we work on Pluribus, which is just a fucking hoot.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I love Pluribus. Yeah, I love the music on that show, it is so good. Everything about that show is so good.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

You know, it's to me, it's because this team has been working for so long together. They like we all have our shorthand, and it's like they they have the trust to just let us do our job, which is music. Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

That's the key word that I think people forgot. I that keeps the word trust keeps coming up in my conversations. Yeah, trusting your relationships, your peers, the people you hire to do things. And when the trust is there, the you know, everything gets done, it works out.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Trust is a huge thing, and I think you know, collaboration is hard. And I think the just the fast pace, like for someone getting into the industry, I guess because that's what your podcast is about, it's just you don't realize how crazy it can be because you're putting together a team that is who is like never worked together, and you have these ridiculous deadlines and crazy budgets, and you're just like, How do you make all this work? And so when you're in the trenches together, I think, yeah, you have to there has to be an element of leaning on each other and and talking it through in a way that like makes everyone feel good at the end of the day. Absolutely, and not like shit.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Well, hopefully, oh my god, yeah, hopefully. Are there has there ever been is was there ever a time when you had you brought in any musician to a show, someone new, someone like you know, coming off of a festival? I don't know where people come from. And it I'm imagining there may have been a time when you brought somebody in and it kind of gave them their platform to become seen, and everyone's like, what's that song? Who is that?

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yeah, I mean, I think a perfect example is uh Pluribus, actually, because we were able to have the time and budget to do custom demos for those like end credit uses. I think it's in the second episode. There's a Turkish musician called um, his name is Um Murat Evgin. And I think it was just serendipitous that like Thomas had met him a couple weeks prior. It wasn't even that long that he had met him, and he was just like, Well, we have like these crazy ideas of doing covers for like 60s, 70s countercultural songs. Like, would you want to take a crack at this? And he was like, Yes. Um, and like instantly it was just the favorite of the bunch. Um, so that was just a really cool, like, like just yeah, all the stars aligned. And I do think he yeah, took it and ran ran with it too, like was so excited by the use. And um, you know, I love uh also Kit Sebastian who does who did, I think it was seven, the end of where was it six? Anyway, one of the episode endings where um Minusos is like kind of driving away into the sunset a little bit. They covered a song, and I just feel like they're so talented and coincidentally they're also Turkish, but yeah, it's really cool to like work with, and there's a lot of songs that didn't make it into the series. Um, so we worked with a lot of different uh you know artists from all over the world, and again, the sometimes the translation of it all is is challenging. Um, but it's so cool to be like, hey, we picked you from like the ether, and we want you to do a demo and we're gonna pay you for it.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Like wow, you and you're just like I made someone's life right now. Yeah, it's super cool.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Oh, I love part of the job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Hell yeah. I mean, that must be so fun. I mean, I love everyone, I I don't know a person who doesn't love music, but to be able to do that and get to discover in that way through music, the world and people must be so fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Yeah, it is. It's it's really like just uh yeah, it's rewarding, I think. And you know, I I I love music so much that I want to sort of introduce, you know, artists to to the world that like not you wouldn't necessarily hear otherwise. Like that's one of my favorite things, whether it's contemporary or vintage, you know, I want to dig deep and heck yeah. I love that part of the job.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Heck yeah. Okay, so I would love for anyone who finds this and is interested in this side of the business. Can you talk to people about what they should know if they're trying to get a job in this in music supervision or whatever the entry level roles are called? What do people misunderstand about the job? What they should know when they're getting started, all that jazz.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Yeah, I mean, I think that the misconception is that. We just make fun playlists and then that's like the job, but it's not it's a very small part of it to be honest. Yeah. Um, the creative part is amazing and it makes all the other stuff worth it, but it's it's a lot more to it. There's, you know, you if you're looking to learn about it, I think you know, focusing on the legal part, so like music clearance, music licensing, like learning about it. I used to work with the Guild of Music Supervisors, so I'm a big advocate of them because part of their mission is to sort of not only educate about the craft, um, you know, because I think not being unionized and having sort of misconceptions about a job makes our lives harder. Yeah. Um education is a big part of their mission statement, but also paving that path for people who want the job.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Um, I mean, yeah, let's talk about that because obviously it's good that there's a guild for music supervisors, not something that I'm as I was made aware of until I I met you. So what does the guild do? What how do they support? What's your involvement? What should people know? How do they get involved and what about it is for them?

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Yeah, so I think, you know, again, if you want to get into music supervision, it's it's a very small pool of people. Um, so getting to know them is the best way. Um, I think that's true with most of our crafts in this industry. Um you know, I think I think that's a really good entry point. And I think how I started, like essentially just sort of researching, was finding their podcast. And then I just, you know, listen to their like, you know, educating on clearance, educating on, you know, random stuff.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

And I was podcast as an educational tool to get hired, what a concept.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

I know, I know, it's amazing. Um, yeah, but I think you know, you're you're sort of on your own path, right? And and if you're consuming things that you're passionate about, then yeah, put on that podcast. Um yeah, they have a really they have a really good sort of um entry point into that, I would say. And um also you can become a friend of the guild, which is essentially a subscription. So you're subscribing to their newsletter, but also, you know, in invites to events and networking possibilities and um the possibility to volunteer. I think if you're really into if you learn about it and you still like it, um, then yeah, going into it and and sort of trying to find volunteer role is how I did it, you know, and then you again with the trust word, yeah, kind of gain people's trust and they're like, oh wow, she is actually serious because she's working for free.

unknown 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Well, that is how a lot of these roles work, especially entry level. You volunteer your time, you show up to be the check-in booth person because then you'll just end up having, you never know, but you'll where you will have the most random conversation with someone. Yep. Most of the time it's at like some check-in booth as a volunteer, and then they're like, What are you doing next Saturday? You're like, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, exactly. And they're like, Well, I have this random thing. Like, I remember Thomas hired me originally for like an admin like project, you know, and that's sort of how I got my foot in the door a little bit, you know. And and I think all that other life experience we were talking about before, like really helped me prove that I had the skills that I could do the basic stuff, and then you kind of are able to be taken a chance on like creatively and you know, yeah, personally, because everybody is all about relationships. And if you burn a bridge or you do something stupid, like that they're gonna remember that.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Just don't be dumb. Yeah. You think that it's about who you know, but it's about who knows you and remembers you, and they'll remember you for showing up, raising your hand, saying yes, being available, being willing to learn and be educated. I think everything you're saying makes sense if people want to get involved. Sometimes you just have to do a little bit of the harder work to get to the easier work of getting paid for it too.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Right. Yeah, I think and it's like, yeah, like you said, getting people to know you. And how do you do that? Well, you're not just gonna magically land a job without any experience. So I started from the bottom at 30. So Wow, wait, say that louder? That's so cool. I started the bottom again at 30.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

That's incredible. Is um are there any trends or changes you're seeing in the world of music supervision lately? Like what's what's going on? Or is it kind of like dandy?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, good question. I think I think there is more publicity around the role, a little bit more than there used to be. Like, you know, the stranger things running up that hill thing. Oh my gosh. You know, the cramps in Wednesday. Like, I could go on and on, but there's been articles actually, you know, pinpointing like, hey, there's this role that, you know, actually makes these moments happen. Um, I think it's really important. And us getting an Emmy category was huge. Oh I don't remember how many years now, but it has not been that many years. So that's relatively new to get any recognition whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Which is crazy because I don't know a single person who goes in to watch a television show, a movie, uh like any kind of short form vertical, whatever. And it's like, if there's no music, we don't know what we're supposed to be doing. We don't know what to feel, we don't know who to like be emotionally like sobbing over. Like, I don't know what's going on. The music tells me who to follow. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

I know I remember, I don't remember what year, but the Oscars did like this whole stint. I don't know if you remember where they like, you know, had people sing a song or like there there's this like song moments, and not once did they mention a music supervisor in the whole pit. And I was like, you're leaving out like who's responsible for these moments. Like, I don't understand why you would even, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Like it was just really they go past the person responsible to the person who's like the person that you see, the rec the yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

And I mean, I'm also recognizing too that obviously every craft has like, you know, a director at the helm or producers, like having the that vision, but who's making those music that those things happen behind the scenes is so important to recognize. Um, I just yeah, I'm a big fan of behind the scenes people like getting recognized recognition for their work.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Everyone knows about the, you know, the actor, but then someone casted that person, and that's why that person's on screen, you know, like there's so many, and that's why I know that I'm why I'm in this industry because I would sit in the movie theater and I would watch the credits all the way down to the very bottom. And I wanted to know the people that were involved, not just who were on screen. And there's so many people involved, and music supervision is one of those roles in this whole big crazy business we're in that's I don't think getting enough recognition, which is why I wanted to talk with you about it.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yeah, thanks for including it. Like it's just it's just one of those things where you're like, what is it? And rightfully so, but because it's so complicated and it changes with every project too.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

So which is also the fun of it. But then I think right now a lot of people, I'm assuming based on the way I am reading the news and looking at the world, maybe we're not the most open um industry right now to new people and questions and how does this get made? Because we're like, we don't actually know. Yeah, but it's like yeah, that's a whole nother topic. Are you someone who would be available if people are like, I'm studying this, I'm trying to figure this out. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Yes, yeah, for sure. You can find me like super music vision on socials, um, is a great way to ping me. And I'm the one who checks those things, so she does a lot, guys. Yeah, it's uh you know, lots of hats.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Truly, thank you so much for joining. This was lovely, and um it was great talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

You ask really good questions, and um yeah, this is wait, okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

My last to end it before we sign out. Give me, is there a song I should be listening to? Is there an artist that you're really into? Like, give me someone to walk away with. Oh wow. I know. Sorry, hardest question ever. It's a loaded question. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Um well, I just saw Tamora live, so they're on my mind. It's a it's a collaboration of the Chemical Brothers and Aurora and just wild. I I it was a really good show. They just released their EP, or maybe it's a full album, actually. Um anyway, they just released like brand new, like it they're new, they're new to the scene.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

They're new, they're brand new. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

I will listen.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

You are you are now on my uh like release radar or new music Friday. So I love that.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

I know. I keep meaning to be like, I should, yeah, I should do that. Like, you know, release a fun playlist every once in a while.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

If you have time, that should be your new project. Not like anymore. Sorry, never mind, scratch that. But yeah, thank you for joining. Someday, someday. Cool. All right, well, this was amazing. I'm glad that I got to know you, and I hope that you have a really great rest of your week. Yeah, you as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Thank you so much for watching andor listening, depending on how you're uh viewing andor listening to this podcast. We thank you so much for taking the time and spending the last hour with uh listening to what honestly was a very engaging conversation about the incredible world of music supervision. If you're interested in potentially being on a future episode, please feel free to reach out. We love to have more recommendations. And uh don't forget to like, subscribe, follow along, and we will see you on the next one. I think we're good. Okay, yeah.