Just Be Silly - Fallacies of the Manosphere

The manosphere isn’t just a few loud guys online. It’s a pipeline that finds men at their lowest point, especially after divorce, and sells them a shiny shortcut: get richer, look tougher, dominate more, and you’ll finally be “high value.” We’re not buying it, and we’re not letting lonely men get farmed for clicks and monthly subscriptions either.

Zac and Matt sit down with Phil and Kelly to break down what the manosphere actually teaches, why it spreads so easily through social media algorithms, and how “red pill” echo chambers turn normal insecurity into hostility toward women. We talk about the grift behind the courses, the obsession with cars, watches, and image, and the trap of treating dating like a marketplace where people are commodities instead of humans.

Then we get practical. Kelly shares what many women mean when they say they want emotional safety, partnership, and a co-pilot rather than a boss. We dig into emotional intelligence, the difference between listening and fixing, and why hyperstoicism often reads as insecurity instead of strength. We also tackle independence, provider pressure, and whether it’s okay to approach someone in public, plus how to handle rejection without spiraling.

If you’re rebuilding after a breakup or divorce and you want real confidence instead of cosplay masculinity, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more men find the healthier path.

Transcript

What The Manosphere Is

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome back to the Divorce Dudes Podcast. I'm Zach. And I'm Matt. Here to help you along your journey. Um, today we're going to talk about the manosphere. Yeah, we have a couple guests here with us today. Yeah, we got Phil back in the studio as uh I guess he's gonna become a uh an regular on this show.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

I'd be open to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah, yeah. And then we have uh we also have my wife Kelly joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

So sweet.

SPEAKER_06 0:32

That is the quietest I ever heard you.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

I didn't know what to say. I thought about it. I thought I thought I was gonna introduce myself and I went with the we're recording now.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

She has no opinions. Well, she'll have opinions on this topic, I'm sure. Um, so today's episode is about the manosphere. Uh, the manosphere is an umbrella term for a loose network of online communities that pro promote aggressive definitions of traditional masculinity, extreme misogyny, and opposition to feminism. Um these include men's right activists, uh, incels, pickup artists, and men going their own way. And we'll talk about kind of each one of those as we get to it here. Um, the big takeaway of this is that the the manosphere is a bunch of guys that we don't really think that you should pay much attention to because the message they're sending is very anti-women. Um it's very uh anti-being a good man, which is what our last episode was about. Uh, and it's more focused on things and wealth and superficial items like cars and clothing and yeah, they're really selling performance and not connection. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The idea of being a high value man. Yes. Because apparently that's what women want.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

It gives me the ick, to be quite honest. As it should.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

As it should.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That's why we want your opinion. Yeah, literally, that's why we have you on the show today.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

I have a lot to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Good.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

We cannot wait to hear it.

The Predatory Pipeline And The Grift

SPEAKER_00 2:02

So it kind of starts with this predatory pipeline. Um, these guys start kind of come at you like um uh what those those preachers that are you know a prosperity gospel. So basically they're saying, hey, you're lonely. We have the solution. We're the only people that have the solution, so pay us every month, and we'll tell you how to get things like cars and houses and women, and your life will be better because of that.

SPEAKER_06 2:30

Yeah, they really build on a fear, right? They they it's the fear of losing status or that woman might leave you if you don't have these things.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Um what's that what's that TikTok song? Uh you know this one. Um looking for a guy in finance.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah. How's it go?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Uh I know you know it. I know you know it.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I know it. I just can't think about the top of the city.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Six foot, six figures, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah. What a guy in finance. Finance. Yeah. Yeah, you've got you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Um, so that that's kind of the idea that they're selling, is like you're not gonna be a whole man unless you have these certain criteria that you meet, and that no woman is actually gonna love you or want to be with you unless you have these things. Right. Um, which is kind of why you're here today to dispel these myths. Like, yeah, is there a reason that men should feel like the only reason why you would go out with them or or want to be with them is because they have a Ferrari.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

No, and I just find it interesting that they're pushing all these traditional values like into like they're wanting that trad wife, that tradition, you know, where are the traditional women at? But I'm also everything they kind of stand for is nothing that's of a traditional man either, nor is that like we're you know what I'm saying? Like having this crypto wealth, and you know, it's just it's such a strange concept of driving these fancy cars, having to have a 10-pack. It's just not really one realistic, and even if it is for some guys, great, but it's not like that's what's gonna give you more value. I mean, cool, if that's your like shtick, go for it. But I don't uh and I think I speak on behalf of a lot of women. Um, I know I don't speak on behalf of every woman because I think there are some girls that like that, and that's fine. I feel like those kind of people just kind of have to find each other, but my fear is they're projecting a lot of this mindset onto like younger guys who are looking for role models and they're lonely. The thing I don't like is they they really tend to crap talk women calling us gold diggers, etc., etc. And I'm like, but you're the one selling and grifting to like lonely boys and trying to sell your $997, you know, course of how to become a better man. I'm like, who's the who's the gold digger? Be so for real here. That's what kind of drives me nuts about this.

SPEAKER_06 4:54

They really teach you to become a product, yeah. A man, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Um, and and that kind of goes back to that gospel preacher of hey, I'm gonna give you the salvation, I'm the only person that knows the right way. I know you're lonely. Um, and a lot of guys, a lot of these guys actually blame that on the man themselves. Um, some of their their ideas are that men are inherently worth nothing unless they have these things, and they're the only people that can uh deliver them the information they need to get them.

SPEAKER_07 5:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

So they'll they'll go and talk about how uh to pick up women in the bar or you know how to uh get your seven-figure job so you can get the Ferrari in the house.

SPEAKER_06 5:41

Yeah, and you know what? I uh hot take, but like everything that they talk about isn't necessarily bad, right? Yeah, you can go to the gym, you can go make money, and you can be emotionally available on top of that. You don't have to be this product that only does X, Y, and Z, and this is the only way to get women, and this is the only way to live your life. No, go to the gym if you need to go to the gym. If you want to make more money, all the more power to you, but you can't just they can't be your personality. Yeah, that's not it's not realistic in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Right. And the the women that are gonna be drawn to that are the women that you're not dating the woman, right? She's dating the things that you can provide her.

SPEAKER_06 6:25

Right, she's dating your Lamborghini, she's dating your house, she's dating your pool, she's dating your bank account, she's not dating you.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Right. And that kind of leaves you in that same cycle of loneliness. Right. You're you're never gonna get out of that because you're not gonna be with a person that's there for you.

SPEAKER_07 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Right. You're gonna be there for she's gonna be there for things. Yes. Um, and that kind of leaves the it's the it's called a market value trap. Um there's a couple of guys that assign the sexual market value in in quotes. Um it turns dating into a transaction, right? You're it's um you are then a commodity, not a person, not a soul that they can connect with. You are a means to an end to them. And that's what they're they're telling these guys is that hey, you're you're worth nothing unless you have all these things. And and I think that that's very detrimental to men, especially young men or men that are post-divorce, because they're in that vulnerable state.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

Yeah, it's a slippery slope because once once you have that failure there and you've got that shame, you could you somebody comes along and validates that shame and is like, we can take this away. And it's easy to go in that direction because you just want to feel better.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, exactly. And and they're they're selling you, selling you the idea that this is gonna make you better.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

Yeah, trying to sell away your loneliness.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Right, and and and uh luckily we have a woman today to to dispel some of these myths.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Um I I liked kind of what Bruder was saying about like I I think some of their ideas aren't all wrong. I think like it's based in a I think it started in a good place. And I think it's kind of like what this podcast is in a way, right? Where you're just trying to be kind of like men's, like uh just mental health. And I think that that is a good thing. It's a thing to talk about, but I do think the manosphere has definitely like cycled into this kind of I'll just go ahead and say it, it's kind of like a toxic, aggressive, like hyper hyper masculine, alpha male. You know, nothing screams more like alpha male than being like intimidated by an emotionally intelligent woman. You know, they want to like put women down and they want to make them stay, you know. I I've seen so many that there's a great show on Netflix that talks about the manosphere and looks kind of deeper behind where these men are content with having multiple partners, but they're but they are with a woman that has to be monogamous to them. It's just it's a crazy world. I'm like, where do they go thinking that this ideology and I just fear for like the youth that are listening to this, and like you said, feel like being in that vulnerable state, they're like, Yeah, like they get it. And it's almost like those like ideas that you may have in your mind. Like, I know we all you almost, it's like the what it what do you always say? You get in your um, what's the word? Your ideal ideology because it's like people are well, then other people start, you're seeing the same thing over and over, and people are like, Oh, I kind of feel that way. And it just all of a sudden you're like fed this material. It's an echo chamber. It's like an echo chamber. That's the word I was thinking. The echo chamber, that's exactly it, right? There, this echo chamber of like you kind of already thought like maybe some of these bad thoughts, and then you have a million men saying, like, yeah, that's right. Like, you are, you know what I mean? All of a sudden, it becomes this like whole movement. And I kind of feel like that's what's gone on, and this it's scary to think about um this next generation of guys that this is like their role models. I mean, how did you guys come about the like the have you seen them? Does it get on your social media

Red Pill Feeds And Echo Chambers

SPEAKER_03 10:04

feed?

SPEAKER_06 10:04

Yeah, so me personally, almost immediately after the divorce, I start seeing these on my Instagram feed, right? And I start getting these over and over and over again, and it's all this Manosphere stuff. I didn't know that's what it was called back then. I didn't even understand what they were actually about, but I heard things like making money and you know, having nice things and going out and doing these things, and this is how you do it, and it m it sounded good. And that was like it's like Morpheus with the red pill, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Red pill. It's it's called the red pill um pipeline. Yeah. Because they're selling you like they're gonna give you that red pill to get you out of the matrix. Yeah, and they've set up the world as it's like out to get you, and they're the only people that can get you out of it.

SPEAKER_06 10:51

And I'll and I I didn't fall for the trap, but I I saw it and I said, Oh, that's shiny, and I I want to know more. And I did. I dove into trying to understand what it was that they were about, only to find out that they're not just misogynists, they're literally preying on young women to do pornography and selling their bodies. They're they're pimps trying to tell you that this is the only way to live.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

And then and then criticizing them. Like that's what's crazy to me. I'm like, you're gonna, with the same breath of like pimping them out and getting them to do all these things, but then you're gonna talk about how you want a traditional like it's so backwards, right? You're gonna pimp out to get these boys to buy into OnlyFans because you're invested into it, and then all of a sudden, like, oh, but that woman's actually trash. We don't actually want her. I mean, gross. Who wants and you're like, wait, aren't you selling like she's a used product? You're a used product. I mean, yeah, gross. Like it's just how we talk about people. I mean, let alone being a male versus female, we're we're all people. Like that's what grosses me out. I'm like, why are we acting like this? We can be adults here. Yeah, Phil, how did you get introduced to like have you seen it on social media or so?

SPEAKER_05 12:02

I didn't really uh see it on social media. I really kind of stopped using social media after a while. Uh, you know, but I've always kind of kept try to keep in touch with what's going on in the world and like the different groups that are fighting back at against each other. And you know, I come a fa from a family with a there's a lot of conservatives conservativism in my family. You know, there's a lot of people that I that I love that are on both sides of the of the aisle. And so there are there were times where I I would still get that conservatism act, you know, triggered.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:34

You know, and I wanted to understand it. Yeah. You know, I I had some problems with the feminist movement. Uh it's not, you know, nothing's perfect. Yeah. But uh but in trying to understand it, you know, that's when I eventually found the manosphere. I was like, well, that is that's an overcorrection.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Pendulum swung. Right. A lot of guys will fall for this trap of like, hey, we're gonna show you how to get, you know, beautiful watches and houses and uh cars and women and teach you how to have this lifestyle. When to get like to to put some perspective into it, right? They're not teaching you how to build a community, they're not teaching you how to, you know, stand up for the people around you, right? They're selling you this ideology that it's almost narcissism. Yeah, you're first and only. Yeah, you are the only thing that matters. That's what they're selling you, uh, which kind of takes us back to our last episode about being a good man. It's like you are everybody around you, also. You are you, but you are also the community that you build, you're the community you live in, you're the people that you help support at your job or your church or whatever it is. All of those are you, right? You are not the watch, you are not the car, you are not the whatever status symbol they're trying to sell you. That's not who you are.

SPEAKER_07 13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Um, and I think that's where a lot of these younger men are getting uh kind of misguided in this stuff, is that they are pursuing the things that they think are gonna make them more of a high value man to women when in in reality it's it's the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Because they see that a thing works, they want to replicate that, they want that for themselves, and they see that it worked for this one individual, so I'm going to mimic that that person. Yeah. And that creates an opening for malicious people to be like, yeah, I can I can totally you know groom you into this. I can I can pull you into this and you'll give me money.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

Yeah, and I will teach you how to be like me.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

You're never gonna make it, but yeah, yeah, exactly. You're never gonna make it.

SPEAKER_05 14:39

You're never gonna make it, but you can give me you can give me fifty bucks.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Give me your money and I'll tell you, teach you a course about it. Yeah, it's the ultimate influence. And I think women falls victim to this a lot too. Just same thing. You see this ideology or this woman, and you want to follow those steps to be that same thing. And yeah, I just I just hate where it's headed, I hate where it's going. I I just I don't know. I fear if we need more guys like you to speak out about it.

SPEAKER_06 15:05

There's probably a lot of pressure on women to do the same thing, right? You gotta have this exact purse, you gotta have these exact shoes, and you have to have your nails to look exactly like this, and there's so much material pressure on so many people, and that's Manosphere is just doing the exact same thing. Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's advertising material pressure over anything. And the only way to get that is to have the material so that you could have the woman.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, that is but I always ask, and I wish I could what is I think what I would ask a lot of men, and especially going through your podcast, like, what's your ultimate goal here? Is your ultimate goal just to become the best version of yourself? Like, right? And if this is just being your self-health journey, great, that's awesome. Like, if that means you just want to get to the gym, if you're just trying to be, or is it trying to get a woman? You know, you really got to come about it in the way of what is your ultimate goal, right? To be happy, to be healthy, to be successful, and what does that look like? Because you can go a road to path of success and it could be very isolating and just as lonely, right? I just that's I think I'm like, if you're trying to get a woman, you have to recognize exactly what you said. Like when you're trying to go after all this material things and all the Lamborghini, what are you attracting? Like, what do you think is, you know, most I say most average women, yeah, like uh uh wealth is attractive, but it's there's so much more that's more attractive, you know. And I fear that they're not emphasizing any of that. You know, that was the thing I fell in love with with Zach the most, was just like the man he was willingness to speak up for other people. And that was more attractive to me than any amount of money and any amount of car. And you know, that's I think the thing, the message that should be pushed forward is you know, trying to what what's the healthy side of growing as men?

SPEAKER_05 16:51

That's what makes another thing that what makes me so powerful. I think Matt said earlier, like these things that they're trying to sell, they aren't inherently bad things. Right. You know, and so it's a perversion of that goodness. It may it makes you think that, oh yeah, it's okay to go down this path.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:10

I think it's important not to be the quote unquote high value man, but the high quality. Someone who keeps his word, regulates his emotions, contributes to people around him, makes life easier for others, and has integrity when no one's watching. Our last episode. That's literally what our last episode was.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

I was gonna say tag the double D's right here. The high quality man is where it's at.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

So let's uh how did we get to this point?

Why Men Lose Community

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Like, how did how did we get to the point where we have a bunch of lost young men, we have a bunch of uh post-divorce men who are also seeking um this community.

SPEAKER_06 17:51

I think I think it's a digital age, right? Yeah, everybody has their perfect Instagram post. Right. And all you see is everybody's Polaroid of what they want you to see. Right. You don't see the struggles, you don't see their downtime, there you don't see the work and effort that they put into things, and and someone's out there saying, Hey, if you want this perfect Instagram life, this is the only way it'll cost you fifty dollars, and I'll give you my secret. So, how do we fix it?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

How do we fix it? Do we uh go out to the bar and like play fucking trivia at night?

SPEAKER_06 18:26

Like, I mean, what what are they trying to do it right now? Yeah, I think this, I think getting a message out of the way.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

We gotta talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

We gotta get the message out. I think that some of this has come because we've lost community.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Yeah, well, I think this is creating its own. I know you guys are just kind of starting and taking off, but I think that you know, whether a guy has to be divorced or not, I think a lot can relate to the mental health struggles and the isolating feelings and the where mental health in men I think has struggled. I think for a long time, and I think this dates back to like childhood between a boy and a girl. A girl falls down, oh sweetie, like let me get you fixed up. And a boy, it's like rub some dirt on it, get up, but don't cry, don't be a little girl. Like, and it's just like this emotional like separation, right? And so boys now at this age, there's so much conflicting, like they weren't a lot of their emotions, I don't think, were catered to, so now they don't know what to do with it, right? They just it just can go all over the place, and I think that that's almost led to where we are.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Some of that actually has taken over these boys have grown up to be men, yeah, who have had failed relationships who now are in a place where they're lost, so they're like latching on to these guys that are selling them this dream.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Um and also telling them that they were not the reason that it failed.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

That goes back to the last episode also about personal responsibility. Like you have to be able to to self-reflect and and and realize that maybe you're not perfect and that maybe you need to work on yourself too.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

And I don't think that that that that's manosphere is not. That's not something manosphere is proposed to do that.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

They're blaming you already for not being the the high value man.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Right. And the only reason why you are where you are is because you don't have a a Lamborghini and you don't have a mansion and you don't have a Rolex, like and that's what they're trying to sell you. They're trying to sell you this idea that you will be that full, complete man if you have these material things.

SPEAKER_07 20:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Um So I I wanted to I wanna uh really want your opinion on this.

What Women Actually Want

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Um I've got a couple of things here. Basically, it's what women actually want.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Oh gosh. Yeah, I'm there's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

I'm gonna put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Um would you rather have a boss or a co-pilot?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Co-pilot.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Co-pilot. Do you want emotional safety or do you want financial safety?

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Emotional safety.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Emotional safety. Good. So let's let's like kind of break this down a little bit. The the boss versus co-pilot. Do you want somebody who's gonna tell you that you need to have a dinner ready and you need to quit clean the kitchen and that your job is to take care of the household? Or do you want somebody that's gonna look at you like you are a partner in this life with them to where you can enjoy the things in life together versus being their employee?

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Definitely the partnership. And the caveat I have here is I do think there are different types of relationships. I do think there are relationships where women stay at home and you know, the man goes, and if that's in a like a mutually agreed upon, I do think that that's an okay thing. Like I don't want to, you know, the traditional lifestyle that some people have, I think that's great. But I do think it has to come with like mutual respect. And I think that's where you lose a lot of like these women, where the men are like, I'm the One who works, you stay at home, you take care of all these things, and then everything that's at the house is your responsibility, no shared. I think that that each relationship's gotta is different, right? Everyone's gotta have an open line of communication. Um, but I would say that any woman uh that I know at least um is gonna choose partnership. And I think almost every man does too. Ultimately, that's what you're seeking, right? As a partner, someone who's your best friend, who's your love, who like good times and bad times and loss. I mean, the only thing we all know in this life is like crap is gonna happen. So it's like you just want people, a friend, relationship, you want a spouse that's gonna be able to enjoy it with you. Like that's you know, someone you can turn to and who knows your secrets, who knows what your farts smell like. I mean, it's kind of fun, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Someone to share life with.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah. And I think, you know, if it's just a boss relationship, gosh, that's that's just awful.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

And that's that's kind of what those guys are selling you, though, is that you are the alpha male, and that whoever is with you is your subordinate, right? They need to follow into whatever it is you say.

SPEAKER_06 23:04

It's it's something that I've said recently, you know, I'm looking for a partner, not a dependent. Yeah. You know, and and that whole manosphere is you need a dependent, and they need to depend on you for everything, right? You can't you have to supply and be everything for them because if you don't have that status woman on your hand, you're not going to close the deal, you're not going to get the car, get the house, get the keys to whatever it is. And and that idea is advertised as having that trad wife as someone who's going to take care of everything at the home for you. But it just becomes a dependent, it doesn't become a partnership.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

You're you're in a you're in a transaction more than a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

And watching that show on Netflix, I witnessed a lot, but I did recognize there are women like that that want that. And again, that's if that it floats your old boat, go for it, have fun.

SPEAKER_06 24:03

You know, but I think the the women who want to be a stay-at-home mom, wife, etc., I don't see a problem with that.

SPEAKER_05 24:12

That's a huge commitment. Yeah, that's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

It's a job in itself.

SPEAKER_06 24:15

Yes. But they are they are your partner because they're there for you, both emission uh you know, emotionally and physically and everything else. They're they're a part of that partnership. They chose a role to be this person in your life. Yeah. And that's not a bad thing either, but to expect every single woman to be that, and that's the only way they're allowed to be, I think, is a foolish idea.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Yeah. Or if like you're both working full-time jobs and then expecting that same thing when you, you know, and not recognizing their shared things here. Yeah. That's that that that's the idea, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

I think there's a lot of relationships that have failed because uh the men in them have expected that the women uh do the housework, right? It's not a shared partnership. It's like, hey, this is your job as a female. And I think that's kind of also what the Manosphere is projecting, right? That there are gender roles and that women do certain tasks that men are above, right? And I I inherently think that that's wrong.

SPEAKER_07 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

By the way, I would love to be a trad husband. Listen, if she starts making enough money where I I tell her all the time, I will make a great stay-at-home dad. That's right. Call me Mrs. Doubtfire.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Um, so emotional safety versus financial safety. Yeah. Which would you rather have?

SPEAKER_03 25:40

I I definitely double down on the emotional um security. Uh I've been in relationships that were not, and I think that nothing is leaves you more uneasy than emotionally feeling like your heart is just being like juggled around and you don't trust somebody, you don't feel safe with somebody. I mean, there's nothing worse than that. And people can argue, yes, money is nice. I'm never gonna disagree. But I mean, I know a ton of women who are in very financial safe, and I know all their escape plans. Like I know how they absolutely want to get out of there and how can they do it safely? How can they do it? Because they're they've lost their partner, right? They've lost their emotional that that connection that we all go into a relationship, like when you express your vows, like everything you go into it. Um money is just such a factor that I would rather like eat ramen on the floor of a basement with somebody I actually enjoy than eat like some fancy lobster dinner with a jerk, like to be quite frank, right? Like there's just I've been in both sides and I just it goes a long way to have that emotional. And I think men do too. You know, I I know there's that manosphere selling that, like, be this alpha, make this money. I don't disagree. Try to be as successful without selling your soul. Like, I don't want, I don't want my partner to go to work and just hate themselves and hate everything. I mean, that's awful too. You know, at what cost are you, you know, if you're doing something you enjoy, you make a lot of money. Wow, you hit the jackpot, you know, and you want to have a good spouse that enjoys it with you. Absolutely. I don't know. I just the whole money going after and making it your entire identity that the manosphere is done, it just leads to people I feel like can be very unhappy in the long run. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

We're proud betas here. Yeah, I'm is that what they're called?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Is that that's what I'm calling it. Sigmas. We're sigmas, I think is the actual word that we're supposed to use. I'll look that up later.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Oh, do they like have names for guys who don't subscribe to their alpha games?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

One of you to look up what a sigma male is, right? Right, what is a sigma male? I'm gonna ask you

Emotions Without Volatility

SPEAKER_00 27:48

another question. Um, would you rather date or be with a man who um doesn't show emotion or can come home um after having a bad day and not make it about himself? Like can would you rather have a stoic man who just doesn't show any emotion at all, or a man who can come home and say, Hey, I've had a really bad day. I don't want to make it about me. I want to talk about it real quick, but then we'll move on.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Yeah, I well, definitely the way you presented it. I don't think anybody just wants like emotionless. Um, but I also think having emotional intelligence and awareness and ability to talk about it, because that's what your partner's there for, is to talk about the goods, the bads, the funnies. Like that's part of it. And personally, I mean, I guess there might be some women who would rather you just shut up, I guess. But I would say from a personal perspective, I want to share that, you know, day with you, even if it is a bad one. Now, that doesn't mean I'm passing if you come home and someone's abusive and wants to smack you because they got yelled at at work. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want that emotional volatility, but I do think being able to come home and express yourself and say I had a terrible day, like I need a day to just calm down. I'd love to talk to you about it. I think as the spouse, too, that's part of a female's job too, or partner's job, just to be there for them, right? Like it doesn't have to, you know, you the whole goal was we went back to is partnership, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

What and and I think too, this is um I something I've seen on I don't, I don't even know where the TikToks is what Zach likes to call it, where it's like, do you want me to give advice or do you just want me to listen? Like there's you know, when you're telling something, like if you're venting, it's like, hey, before I respond, are you just telling me this to vent and I can just be here to support you? Or are you wanting my advice? And I think this is where a lot of relationships go sour because when people don't and they almost like try to give advice when you're not really looking for that, you just really want like to vent, and I want you to just be mad at that person with me or that thing, or that's it, just be mad with me.

SPEAKER_06 29:53

That was that was something we brought up in another episode. We talked about this, and it's something that I try to practice. And and I'm not as good as I should be, but I I try to get better about this. Is this a listening conversation or is this a fixing conversation? Oh, that's so good. Yes, yes, because as men, we want to fix things. We want, we want to, it's like, wait a second, is this a listening conversation or a fixing conversation?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Listen, guys, listening here or women, I think it goes both, I so think this goes both ways with friendships, any relationship, like sometimes when you want to tell that story, sometimes you are looking for genuine advice. And there are times you just want to like let them vent with you and be angry and like let's just or be happy, whatever it is. Like you're not always looking to have a fix. And I think that that's you know, where a lot of relationships and friends and things can go sour real quick when that's interjected. Sorry, I think we went off of your question there.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

That's okay. The only reason why I asked that question is because one of the things that these guys try to promote is hyperstoicism. Like you can't show emotion, you have to be like the solid rock of a man all the time. If you show any kind of emotion, you're a weak individual who's never gonna make it.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Oh wow, okay, yeah, definitely no.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

And that's that that's why I asked that question, is because I I there's a bunch of guys that I work with, especially uh, don't work with them, I see I associate with them at work sometimes, who we talked about this on the last episode also. They they wear like affliction and tap out and like these Punisher shirts, and they're always like frowning and arms crossed and they're very guarded all the time, and they think that they're like badass or that they're like cool or that people should be afraid of them. And I feel that they're they have this insecurity inside of them that they're they're hiding because they don't know how to emotionally like express it or talk about it. Um and I think it's to their detriment. I there's a lot of women that just will not interact with them because of the way that they're they're representing themselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

I do agree. Women want someone with a little more emotional depth than a drywall. We you know, I'm like, if you I mean, come on, I can't that's so real, and you're exactly right. If I try to have a conversation and it's very flat, very like you said, stoic, I'm gonna lose interest fairly quickly. And that's I understand if that's just your personality and you're a little bit more introverted, but I do think being able to open yourself and express yourself, especially to your partner. I understand out to the world, you may be like kind of guided or guarded. Um, but I guess at least your partner, that should be, you know, you should be able to let loose and be your most vulnerable self.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So would you say that those kind of guys should just like relax a little bit, be a little silly, throw a little humor out there?

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Everybody child come out a little bit. Yes. That's my only advice. Everyone needs to be a little silly. That's that's the told you.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

They went they went scream singing journey and build a bar during single.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Silly. Anyone who can just laugh at themselves and not think take things too seriously, just be a little silly, be a little weird.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

I've saying spice girls are karaoke. I'm proud of you. Which one were you? Which spice girl were you? I don't know. I say wannabe. Baby spice. Definitely not sporty spice.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Definitely not sporty spice at all. I would be sposh. I like bougie things.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

You know, the the DJ, I'll put in the really heavy rock song to sing one night, and he'd he'd announce he's Phil's going up to sing Spice Girls. So it was just his joke. And one day I was like, I'm actually gonna sing Spice Girls.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

That's fantastic. But see, you're being a little silly. We all appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

It was terrible.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

I want that shirt, be a little silly. Be a little silly.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

We should we're gonna make that. It's gonna be on our website sooner.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

I will buy it.

SPEAKER_05 33:48

Divorce dudes merch. Be a little silly. Yeah. Um, I've got to remember that.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

I'm immediately gonna be your friend. If I see that on your shirt, I'm immediately gonna be like, oh, you're a safe space. Yes because you're you have the ability to just be funny and you're uh aware that you might look stupid sometimes, and then that's just okay, and that's actually way more endearing than being this hyper masculine, 10-pack, intimidating, hyper stoic male. That's like not it.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

And again, I'm speaking for you know, maybe myself and a good amount of women, but I I do feel like I speak on behalf of a good amount of women.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah, you see the TikToks of what women are are like upset with men about. Like you you show me all the time about these women that are bitching about God.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Why we choose the bear over the man.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, we're not gonna get that conversation. That's a very different conversation. It is.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Well, no, but I I I see the conversation, so I understand. I think you guys don't get pushed that that echo chamber as often. So I always say, I'm like, and I understand because me and Zach have gotten talked about it a while, but it's that will be a whole other podcast because it's absolutely fabulous conversation. I learned a lot, he learned a lot, but it was, I think when again, seeing the female perspective on so many angles has been super helpful. So I do think I can speak on behalf of a good amount of women and who've been just let down by a lot of men. It makes me sad that they we get where the feminist movement is kind of being like this anti-male, because that's not that's not the vision. It's mostly just to rise women up in power, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

And do you think that this feminist movement has actually uh propagated some of this atmosphere stuff?

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Probably, you know, just they they're like, oh well, they have their movement, like let's create our own, and you know, trying to get that white male identity back. I I don't know, alpha male identity. Yeah, I don't know the pendulum swings. It is, and I do think that probably the a lot of these movements that have been women driven have probably, you know, it's open to conversation, it's open to door. But instead of the way I I would see it as men actually taking a a listen to what the needs that are needing to be met, you know, I think a lot turns into that toxic side of like um deflect and like defend and personal responsibility, yeah. Yeah, not taking personal responsibility. And that was my fear at first when you guys were talking about this podcast and doing this. I was like, oh no, I don't want this to be um the little rascals like women hating club, you know. I was like, oh no. And then he was like, no, literally, that's not at all where we're going. And then when I heard the idea, I was like, no, no, no, that's beautiful. I'm surprised that it doesn't already exist because I was like, this idea is fantastic. Um, and I'm glad you guys have me on here.

Dating Independent Women Without Insecurity

SPEAKER_06 36:34

Well, I'd like to pivot just a little bit here. So I feel like a lot of women nowadays can um provide for themselves, right? A lot of women have jobs, they're making good money, etc.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

We have a friend too in Nashville who is very independent, and she don't need no man.

SPEAKER_05 36:54

Right. Right. Don't need no man.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

She's awesome on her own. Um, so this speaks directly to us.

SPEAKER_06 37:00

Yeah, and I and I feel like, and Kelly, please correct us if we're wrong here. But I think it matters more about can he communicate? Right?

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:11

Is he dependable? Does he listen? Can he handle a conflict without exploding? And does he support your goals?

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:20

Um and I feel like that is much more important than does he have a nice watch? Does he have a fancy car? That last one especially does he have a nice house? Does he have X amount of dollars in his bank account? Can he take me out to a nice dinner?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Like that's not the right the supporting of her goals. So that's a thing that I think that a lot of men struggle with is because they hear these things from the manosphere about um, you know, you're not you're not whole unless you're the alpha. Right. Yeah and I think that a lot of these guys are struggling with the fact that they're the women that they're seeking are very independent or they're they're you know fine by themselves, so they feel insecure with that. Right? They they feel like they're less of a person if their their partner makes more money than them or is more successful in their career than they are. Um and I think a lot of men have problems dealing with that. When in reality, I mean that's like a fucking win, dude. That's like uh she makes more than me. I feel like I won a lottery.

SPEAKER_06 38:27

Yeah, I mean, so would you be Mr. Mom? I'm ready for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Yeah, so many people hinge their entire personality on being that provider. Yeah. And when it's taken away, there's you know, there's an empty space, and anything could get inside. And you have to you have to be they have to be you have to be careful about that.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, so we talked about this on one of our early episodes, um uh about the feeling of failure after a marriage.

SPEAKER_07 38:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

So that also happens when you're in a relationship with somebody who is probably more successful than you, right? You feel like you're less of a man because your wife makes more money. Instead of saying, Oh, hey, we're in this as a team, we're a partnership, right? She tells me all the time, my money is is our money, and I did the same thing, my money is our money. Like it goes into one account, right? Yeah, I don't I don't care that she makes more than I do. I'm I'm happy with her. Yeah, she is my partner, I've chosen to be with her, not her money. But this idea has been institutionalized, right?

SPEAKER_06 39:34

So I mean we're having to break down a lot of walls here for years upon years upon years, right? Uh the the saying was women who made money, right? My money is my money, and your money is our money. Yeah. Exactly. And and there was you could buy you could go to the store, you go to Michael's and buy a piggy bank, and it would even have a little slot on there for his money and her money to put in the piggy bank, and whenever he put a quarter on his side, it would slide over to hers. Yeah, Bugs Bunny does the thing. They made these things and sold them out to the masses for years, and this was an idea that was just pushed over and over and over again. And it literally was institutionalized that you know you are only to provide for her, and that anything that they did on their own was theirs, it wasn't ours anymore.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Right. Um, I I just think that that's a mindset that the guys in the manosphere are are pushing, is that uh they're trying to break that idea in the worst way possible. I know exactly.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

They're they're they're making a bunch of narcissistic But I think what you guys are doing is exactly what is needed and normalizing being a normal dude, for one. I think that what more women need to see that so they we stop becoming this like man-hating like club where we're all disappointed in men because we feel like everybody's a failure. Um, I think that seeing this and hearing this is so heartwarming because it is so important to get that message out there and be a role model, be an inspiration, also remind guys, you know, of like exactly what you just said, like what what value you do bring to a relationship is not your car, your watch, your shoes, your outfits, your house, your money, whatever. Like that those are all things that can come and go, right? That like those can be taken out from underneath you just like that. But you know what, your integrity and your your values go so much further, and your ability to stand up for the little guy, your ability to have good conversation, to you know, cook. I don't know, like there's so many things that are value that are actually valuable, and that's where I'm hoping. Um, yes, Zach, it was you you are a fantastic. Like, I bring this into the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

No, I was talking to Matt, I was just I was gesturing to Matt, that's why we're here. I cook the cereal.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

We can bring cook the cereal, Jesus Christ. That's my value.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

So I I do want to kind of like, I don't know, not push back on this men getting these uh this idea that uh this is how it should be. But there's a lot of TikTok women out there who are are also almost very anti-men.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah, that's where I I kind of want to speak out to that too. Because yeah, I agree. It's a it's I understand where they come from in this, but I do think it leads to this exact back and forth battle, right? Because then you're tearing down, then every good guy then feels like they're part of it. You know, it's like it just kind of goes this back and forth ping-pong instead of like trying to meet at the middle and recognize the good guys that are like still putting in the good fight. But I think what I would argue is like I think that it's when the good guys actually stand up and have an ability to say, yeah, that crap, like that's their problem is the good thing. Because I think for so long it's just been like, ah, well, men will be men, boys will be boys, you know what I mean? You just gotta put up with it. And I think we're finally breaking down a lot of walls, and like you said, a lot of things that have just like come through time and like tides are changing. And I do think that the conversation on both sides, I do agree, I want to hold both sides accountable, but the women and men, like we don't need to be a man hating club, we don't need to be women bashing and putting, you know, women down, you know, and there's something to be said about holding people accountable, and that's I think the most attractive thing of like that what you guys are doing is I think you're calling out these guys and you're like, we want to show you what like real men and good men actually are, because that's what gives the faith back into women, right? Like that's gonna be like the conversation why women are not gonna be choosing this bear. Like that it is gonna be like, oh, they really are good guys, thank God. Cause you know, taking accountability, especially tying this back to divorce dudes, right? Um, I think the biggest thing is not always placing the blame on somebody else, like and really looking inward of like where could I have got, you know, a lot of things are reflections of you and who you were in that relationship, taking that in, learning from it, growing from it, being a better person for another person. Sucks you weren't able to make that work with your previous spouse, but you know what? You have a lot more to offer and move forward. And hopefully they don't turn to Andrew Tate or I don't know the other names of this. I don't know those dudes' names, whatever the manosphere names are. Yeah, we'll we'll get into that episode.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

We're gonna break down each one of their theories in the next episode.

Cold Approaches And Handling Rejection

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Um, so uh would you say that it's okay for a guy to like cold approach a woman in the grocery store? Because this is the thing that I I I I we get this argument a couple times a a month, right? You'll show me a TikTok, and I'm like, well, hey, listen, like this is why guys feel like they can't approach women, is because every time they do, it's like, ew, why is he talking to me? Like, yeah, there's a lot of men who see these TikToks and these social media posts about how men just need to stay in their lane or they need to like um I don't know if like just not approach like nobody wants to talk to a woman anymore because these they see all this stuff. And I think that the these Manosphere guys play into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 45:30

Well, they they play on it a lot. I mean, even in going into the gym, right? Like the the idea of men in the gym and women in the gym, this idea that you can't even look in their direction, how dare you do any of these things because you are preying on a woman.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

But you're danged if you do, danged if you don't. Right.

SPEAKER_06 45:49

If the if the man's handsome enough, all of a sudden it's not a problem. Love how she's uh Am I not allowed to say damned?

SPEAKER_03 45:55

I was like, can I say damned? I was like, am I allowed to say damned?

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Yeah, we're gonna mark explicit on this. Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

Yeah, no, I agree. And that and the problem is you you know, you can't speak for everybody because there are people both sides, but I'll say most women, there's you I you know, you are right. And and what I would say onto like the advice to men is you are right. And it and it doesn't always just be handsome, it could be the time, it could be where you're at, it could be someone who's single, it could be someone who's taken or someone just recently got divorced, who knows what their situation is. But what I would say is you're not always gonna be able to control their reaction, right? Do I wish every woman was super bubbly and nice and kind and whatever and inviting to this kind of attention? Sure. And I all men are happy, great. That doesn't, that's not the reality. And I think that getting rejection, it shouldn't just be like this shutdown, angry. It should just be like, okay, she wasn't interested, move on. Um, and I had also hate that like women don't need to be like, hey, a men was a man was interested in you, just like let it go. You know, I think it's like we all could have a little bit more humility, like this is on both sides, you know, like that's so nice. I mean, Zach thinks I'm too nice when men hit on me. He wishes I was a little more of the like people, it takes people probably a little bit further in the conversation with me to realize I'm very happily married. And then he's like, you know what I mean? He's like, Kelly, they're already buying you a drink and they're just now realizing you're married. I'm like, Well, we were got talking about his son's or his husband or whatever, whatever his husband.

SPEAKER_05 47:30

He's gonna buy you a drink if he's got a husband.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

At least I got too much.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

He might have a really wild story.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Oh my gosh. But you just get started talking into all these stories in life, and by the that time, I forgot to mention I was married. I also I also think oftentimes people just want to be friendly and cordial. And some people aren't just trying to sleep with you. Some people actually, so Zach over here is like, not everybody's trying, everybody is. And I was like, no, some people just want to be friends and have friendships. So I always assume the best intent. Not everybody does that, and not everybody should, because I've definitely gotten myself in bad situations because I didn't say no or I didn't like put boundaries. Um, so I've definitely learned some lessons. But that being said, I think the advice to men is like, don't stop trying. Like, there are gonna be mean girls, there are gonna be mean guys, right? It's just, I think it comes about it with like with grace. Like you're gonna recognize you're not everyone's cup of tea, and maybe they're not interested, but then there is gonna be somebody that kind of was like, hey, like actually that was, you know, like nice, and then it may work out. I just would say don't listen to the hateful side of women who are like, ew, stop looking at us in the gym, stop talking to me in the groceries. Like, that's yes, it's nasty.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Recognize that that's not all women.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, and just don't hate a whole group of people for uh the actions of some. And I I mean, I wish I could call them all out. Like, I don't like that attitude on either side. It's it's not good. I can't defend all the women because there are people that are mean. There are women that are very hateful, and I don't like that attitude, but I also can understand when they get to a point where they just aren't interested. Sometimes men, you have I I know that sounds crazy, but you have to be mean to get them to stop. Like, I've even like had to give my phone. I'm like, okay, someone else has got to handle this because they're not getting the please leave me alone. So it's uh unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Guys, take the hint. They say no, no means no. It's fine. You're gonna be okay. Don't take rejection as like uh the the end of the world. Like it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

We don't have to hate all women, there's plenty of other fish in the sea. Go find your Nemo.

SPEAKER_05 49:34

Keep in mind, you're you're rarely gonna meet people at clean breaks in their story.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_05 49:40

Yeah, that's another thing to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

See, Phil's got the brains.

SPEAKER_05 49:43

I got the I got the words.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

He's got the smarts. Um I think that we've we've kind of covered this topic now, um to the full extent that we're

Stop Doom Scrolling Start Living

SPEAKER_00 49:54

going to. Uh I just want to like give some guys you know some some food for thought. Um stop pursuing things. I think that's the biggest thing that the the manosphere is pushing is that women aren't things and things aren't gonna make you happy. The things that will make you happy are forming community, f mentorship, like find somebody that you can teach something to. The the happiest I ever am is when I can teach somebody a new skill. Yeah, um and that will help grow your community. Um, craftsmanship, get a hobby, get some kind of outlet that you can focus some energy into that gives you some kind of a reward. Yeah, right. Scrolling on the TikToks, I'm an old man.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

And Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

And Reddit.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

Well, Reddit is very came against that. Okay, so Reddit's fine, apparently.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Very bad about very bad about Reddit.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Um it's the only social media that I actually interact with right now.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Um but it does you do get in a bad space because Reddit will show you the things that cause controversy. So will Instagram, so will TikTok, so will all of these other social media platforms. Uh, the things that will make you feel better about you are getting out and doing things with some friends, or going out to do a community event with some people you've never met before. Get on meetup. Like, there are things in your community where people that don't know each other will get together and do stuff. Some of the the best times I've had are playing a fucking kickball game on a Sunday afternoon with a bunch of misfits that I I met for the first time at the Nashville, you know, sports league. Yeah. Like stop doom scrolling, start living.

SPEAKER_06 51:49

Yeah, I'd like I'd like to tack on to that and and remind everybody, you can you are a house, right? You're up for sale. And if your yard looks great and the shutters are perfectly painted, and the house is clean on the outside, you got the perfect roof, that's all the things, right? That's that's what got the woman to show up and look at you. But she opens that door and there's no substance, it's an empty floor plan, and you don't have furniture in there, right? That's the things that you have to get out and do.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

That's substance on the whole thing. Fill your house. You're not spinning around.

SPEAKER_06 52:27

Right? Fill your house. That's a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Fill your house. It's so that's so true. It's so true.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

We're gonna make one as a pun for fill.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

I do agree with that. Um, the things that are on your outside are are basically meaningless if the inside is empty.

SPEAKER_07 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Right? So go out, fill your house. Uh Matt's gonna leave us with some words of wisdom today.

SPEAKER_06 52:58

Yeah, our quote today is from Alex Karras. It takes more courage to reveal insecurities than to hide them, more strength to relate to people than to dominate them.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

That actually is very succinct to this episode. Um, the the manosphere tries to teach you to be the alpha male and dominate everybody.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Um but just be a little silly. Be a proud sick one.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

I was gonna make this title something about the manosphere, but now it's gonna be be a little silly. And people are gonna be really confused.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

I love it. All right, guys. Uh on that uh note, divorce dude's out.