She Married The Red Flag

Divorce can look “sudden” from the outside while it’s been quietly unfolding for years on the inside. We sit down with Kelly, a physician assistant in orthopedics, as she tells the real timeline behind her breakup: a college connection, long-distance commitment, then a move-in that exposed early microcheating and a pattern of trust fractures that never fully healed.

We dig into what microcheating actually feels like day to day: the notifications, the constant doubt, the panic that hits your body before your brain can catch up, and the way snooping becomes a symptom of living without safety. Kelly also explains why she kept so much private, how shame and sunk costs can trap you, and why people around you may hand you clichés instead of asking what you’ve already survived.

Then the conversation turns practical. We talk about the non-cheating red flags that often come along for the ride: immaturity, unreliable finances, blaming ADHD as an excuse, and the exhausting loop of arguments that never lead to repair. Kelly shares the boundary that protected her future when a wedding was already paid for: holding off on making it legal until trust was proven, and what finally made her choose separation before the next big steps like a house and kids.

If you’re navigating divorce, emotional cheating, or rebuilding self-worth after a relationship that kept you in survival mode, this one will hit home. Listen, share it with a friend who needs clarity, and subscribe and leave a review so more people can find these stories and feel less alone.

Transcript

Meet Kelly And The Timeline

SPEAKER_05 0:08

Welcome back to the Divorce Dudes Podcast. I'm Zach. And I'm Matt. And I'm Phil. Today we have Kelly here. She's going to tell her story about her divorce. We got a divorce duda in the studio again. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Oh, what? You can't just start off. You did not prepare me for this question. You're not supposed to be prepared to do the other episodes. Oh no. Oh no. Okay. I'm a 34-year-old female. I love rainbows and sparkles and unicorns. And I'm a six-year-old that's never grown up. And I work as a physician assistant in orthopedics. Nice. That's about my summary.

SPEAKER_05 0:41

Nice. So we always like to ask how long you were with your ex-partner.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Okay. Uh probably around six or seven years. I don't honestly know at specific time. Once I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

You don't you don't know if it was six or seven.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Six, seven. No, okay. I immediately hated that. I immediately hated that. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

I can't wait for video.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

So then every time. Every time. If I won't say anything, I will still be back to the six or seven years.

SPEAKER_05 1:10

You don't know. Um how did you guys meet?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Uh we met back in college at the University of Kentucky. Um we had a mutual class together. It was our statistics class, and we had a group of friends. Um, and so I knew some of the guys prior just from sorority fraternity things, and he was just kind of tagging along and it kind of started from there. But mostly it's just friendship.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

Okay. So um you guys had a statistical class statistic. That's really hard to say. A hard word, yes. Stats class. Stats class. There we go. Stats perfect. Um did this like was there an immediate attraction, or did you guys just like slowly kind of to build to a relationship?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, I think there was an immediate attraction to from both ends. Um, but it's because we were both very similar, the same person, very puppy, very bubbly, very fun. Um, and so I was like, oh, that's cool. And I'd always dated guys a little different than that. So it seemed appealing at that time. I was in a different place in my life. I think he actually had a relationship. So we weren't really like that. Um, it was more friendship, but I could tell it was like a little friendship on fire. But again, it was hey, it was in a relationship. So we actually ended up not really dating for a few years after um that class, but that's actually where we met.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

Okay. So met a statistic stats class. I can't say you cannot say that. Stats it is. Um, but yeah, you were in each other's orbit.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Take my teeth out. Maybe I can say statistics. Nope, still can't say. Future compilation. Sometimes I get a little bit of a lisp. Um stats class uh led to a relationship. Um how long uh what year was this? Was this freshman year, junior year, sophomore year?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Uh hard to remember, probably my junior year. And we ended up not dating until like three or four years later.

SPEAKER_06 3:01

I know when we were both figure out this timeline.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I before or after COVID, you're like what somewhere in college, around junior year.

SPEAKER_06 3:11

What song was that? Oh, Taylor Swift. Oh, what Taylor Swift song was out. What era were we in?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yes, yes. Um, definitely kind of the red era. So yeah. We were my college days.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

And um she's in a room with three dudes, and she's like, oh yeah, the red era, like we were supposed to do. I know I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

My Swifties will understand. And so actually three or four years later, like we had had different relationships after that. Like he went somewhere else. I went dating a different guy. And then um, when we were both single, our friend group was still similar. And then that was the first time we were like, hey, do we just try this ourselves? And it worked out. And it was like something I had lusted and um sought after for so long. So I was super excited when it like came to be because it's kind of one of those um, what's the word? They're kind of like your muse. Like I kind of had always thought about him. It just never was the right thing, the right time, but there was always an interest. Um, and it just didn't work out until it did.

SPEAKER_06 4:09

Yeah, it was one of those like the universal each other's friend zones for so long. You're like, ah, we're both single today. Let's do this. You might as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And I will say, uh, during that time, I think girls have a really big feminine intuition, uh, which we'll talk about multiple times later in this podcast, I'm sure. Uh his girlfriend actually really was not a fan of me immediately. Like immediately was like, This girl cannot be part of your life, like to him, which actually um made him, I think, more interested in me. When like, I don't know, it was like more of this like she was like heart knit. Yeah, and I don't know, but I just remember that being a big you want what you can't have, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Yeah. So um, so this is like you're coming up on your senior year in college now, or you're already past, yeah. So you're out of college at this point, getting ready to go grad school. Yeah, different Taylor Swift album.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, or moving past, yes, and applying it uh to um PA school. And um, at that stage, I was looking at University of Kentucky versus moving and starting over with my life, getting new adventures, and I got an offer in Nashville, Tennessee. Um, and me and him were finally starting to

College Attraction And Friend Orbit

SPEAKER_00 5:20

date, but we actually were, I kind of failed to mention we were dating long distance for about two years because he was back at home, which was DC, and I was in Kentucky. So we would actually go back and forth like seven-hour commutes to like be with each other because there was a lot of like love interest, and that was a lot of dedication back and forth. Um, so when I got the opportunity in Nashville, he was like awesome because Nashville had a little bit more opportunity for him. He worked in marketing, so Lexington, Kentucky, it's just the market wasn't there for that at that time. It's grown now, but back then it wasn't as big. So Nashville, he was willing to move and we were gonna move in together. Um, and I think that's where everything went wrong. That's year two, and we go to year six, seven. So we really got some problems. Um, yeah. So uh I will say it started almost just like day one of problems.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Uh so is this because you had spent so much time long distance? You think that he just kind of like kind of got bored with what you were offering when he wasn't when you weren't around? So he was like looking to like you said it was going bad. I'm assuming that he was cheating.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, I will say it, I would call it it's in me. It was called microcheating. It was like so much subtle things like dating apps, but maybe not ever meeting up with anybody, but just having someone to message and text.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

So emotionally. Yeah, and then there was a little bit of dopamine there.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

We were literally living together. I think like I still had balloons and like a welcome homes like picture collage when his when he's taking his first shower in this new apartment we have together. Mind you, my parents are like, Are you sure? Because they're helping me pay for my apartment because I'm in PA school. I'm negative $120,000. I, you know, so they're helping me, but it was still super expensive. So I had to split the rent with him. It was just like one of those things. And they're like, Are you sure he's in it? Like, we're not gonna get screwed here. My my parents are like, yeah, of course, like absolutely, like this is it. This is my one for sure. Um, so like, mind you, I think we're like 24, 48 hours in. All of a sudden he's in the shower, his iPad is just dinging, like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And you don't want to be that girl, but you're also like, why is your phone dinging? So I click on it, and then I can just see this like history of conversation between this girl back and forth, and very much so like cheating in the sense of definitely, I don't know how much was in person. It was a coworker. So I have no idea how much actually was happening. But of course, you know, men can kind of work their way, and you're in just such this excitement phase and embarrassment phase. Like, I was like, I can't tell my parents. So I'm like completely devastated, blindsided, can't tell anybody because I'm like, oh no, I I and I'm also in love. Like, I want this to work so desperately. But I was like, oh my gosh, if I just got in the biggest bamboozle, so don't tell my friends, I don't tell my family, I just like kind of push through, sweep it under the rug, and try to move past. But like you could imagine what that sets the stage for, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:15

Like that's you let it slide once, it's gonna keep sliding. Yeah, like an avalanche.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah, we'll get into that too.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Well, interested now. Um, so just the first pebbles. This is like this is like two days in.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

You guys are already getting the flags. Oh no. Red flag, red flags were red flags are.

SPEAKER_05 8:30

I think you're like Matt, you're colorblind. You don't see red flags.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Oh no. This is true. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_05 8:35

It's they look great to me. Yeah, I don't know what's oh no.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

This is that's a good I like this. That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

So, what was your immediate response? Like, what did you do?

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Oh God, I was probably crazy. You know, when men like like say like women are like, oh, she was crazy. I'm like, yeah, because you created me to be this way. Like, how would anybody not go like psycho? You know, I just have uplifted my life. I have this whole planned out future with you. I have, you know, all this decoration. My heart's broken. And so did you confront? Oh, immediate immediately, like in the shower with the iPad like ripped open. What is this? Yeah, what Eudie, what do you mean? I'm not subtle, you know, I'm not a Well you were hiding it from everybody else.

SPEAKER_06 9:15

I wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, there was a lot of uh tumultuous, is that the right word? Uh there was a lot of turmoil in our relationship that nobody knew because I'm such a happy, bubbly, go fun life that I put, you know, that's like social media, right? You're just putting your highlight reels. And but I also don't like to focus on the negative. I can just really work past it, push it under a rug, and move forward. So so many people would have had no idea what I was going through for so long.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

So what was his response?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Oh God, I just don't even remember anymore. But I immediately like, I'm so sorry, I was lonely. I honestly like can't even tell you. But clearly enough where I forgave him and we like

Long Distance Dedication And The Move

SPEAKER_00 9:55

moved past it, but it was like pretty rough for the first start, right? Like, so that's the foundation. And it wasn't even that. There was actually more within the first month or two. There were like old messages between a different text, like text messages between a different ex-girlfriend. There were emails exchanged from another ex-girlfriend that was like alluding to hooking up. And he like lied and said, Oh, she's just psycho, she's just saying this because she knows you'll see it and like it'll hurt you. And she's just you know, and of course, there's the like, why are you looking through my stuff? You know, so then all of a sudden it's turned on you. You're like, what are you? I mean, yeah, you're right, I did snoop, but at the same time, like, but there's yeah, you gave me a reason for projection.

SPEAKER_05 10:36

Like he's um he knows he's caught in a lie, and now he's trying to project that onto you by uh manipulating you, making you feel bad, making you feel like the bad guy in the situation because you are hurt, yeah. And you've I don't want to say quote unquote broken his trust by looking through his phone, but he already did that to you.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah, it's it's one thing if you were doing it without having found something beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah. And I this is something, and I know so many girls can probably relate to this. There's like a thing that that feminine intuition is so real and so strong. Every single time I looked, I found something. And you can imagine how many times I looked because it was a lot. And I became I like the thing I think that led me to the actual ultimate divorce and separation was I like didn't recognize myself anymore. I was the crazy psycho. I was like, I don't want to be this person, but I've almost like it's curated out of this relationship because I'm so unsafe, unsettled, unsecure, insecure. I like I'm constantly going crazy. Like I couldn't, every text message his phone would light up. I mean, I could feel, like I still to this day feel the palpable like anxiety. Like it makes me emotional because it's I don't think any person who hasn't gone through that can understand. And I know so many women who have, and men, um, but it probably goes both sides both ways, how much that like lack of trust just destroyed so much of me. And it was like taking like cracks at my heart. Like it was like, you know, an eye sculptor, like just sculpting, breaking pieces off of my heart, and you're trying to push through because I truly did want this so desperately. I'd fought so hard to get there. We, you know, and it just broke my soul because it happened consistently for six to seven years. And I would think it would go long enough where I could kind of get over it, and then it would happen again and it would again, and I'd find something and he would make excuses. He would lie through his teeth. He and so I even to this day, I don't even know how deep it all goes because there were things I just didn't keep pursuing. I just said, okay, I I kind of believe you, but I kind of don't. And I have to either make a choice, I'm gonna stick with you or not. And I would stick through it, so I had to like let this go. But every time there were like text messages, there were like social media messaging, liking things. It was like that's what I call micro cheating. I don't know. And maybe there was more macro cheating, I don't know, but there gets to be a point where your heart's broken and you're like, well, great, like, you know.

SPEAKER_06 13:00

So I I I I wonder, just out of my own pure curiosity, this is happening at 48 hours and then continues to happen. What made you decide to get married?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:12

Um that was kind of what I was wondering. Like, was there a long period that this wasn't happening and you thought, okay, it's all over now. I believe him, I'm gonna move forward, or did you think that getting married was gonna fix it?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Kind of. And we would like when the goods were good, it was really good because I'm such a happy. So you have two happies that can just be like elated. It was like life was fun, and we would just beep bop through life, but then what happened was our 22, 23-year-old beepbopping cells had to grow up a little, and he just didn't. I feel like he emotionally kind of stayed stunted, and I was like becoming a PA. I'm getting a lot like getting more mature, growing and learning. And I'm I'm such a big person into growth and like maturity and therapy, like I love it. And he was like stunted and wouldn't wouldn't kind of keep up. And like they were just signs, and besides the cheating, I mean, it was that was just a whole different situation. And um, I was really trying to put this, make this

Microcheating Begins On Day Two

SPEAKER_00 14:10

relationship work because I swore you just have this vision of the life, and when it was good, everything was good, it was great. Um, and that's what a lot of the world saw. So actually, a lot of people were really shocked when we we broke up because they saw most of the good. They didn't see yeah, they saw the Instagram reel, which was the highlights and the real, but like I couldn't even remember half of those photos, even like right before it was like a huge blow-up fight. And then like it would be this like dopamine. I'd post a photo and people would like like it, like, oh my gosh, you guys are so cute. And it would like make my head be like, okay, like you're right, like we're fine, we're cute, like ah, what I was what? I just like looking back on it, it's like so hindsight 2020. But during, yeah, why? I don't know. I I just was so smitten and so obsessed with it being perfect, and I had already dedicated so much of my life. You get to a point where it's like, okay. And then when I was in PA school, I was so distracted. So a lot of time really went when I probably I was also felt kind of stuck, right? Like there were times I thought like maybe I should leave, but again, I was embarrassed to tell my parents, like, hey, I need help.

SPEAKER_06 15:13

And you're financially committed with moving and everything else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yeah. So then there was this that embarrassment part. There was this, um, I was like really wanting it to work out. And you just you would start to micro, I might use that word a lot. I we would start to kind of tell people because this is something Zach's asked me before. He's like, why didn't you just help your friends or your family or anybody? Because nobody really knew these extent. It's the moment you let somebody in, they're gonna immediately judge and like, you know, put you down. And when I would subtly tell people some stuff that was going on, they were like, Oh, that's just relationships. You just gotta push through it. You just all the cliches of like, oh, everybody has those moments, everybody has that, every partner's kind of cheated, every partner's done, you just gotta work through it. So I was like, Oh, and then immediately would like come like the moment I would open like a creak into the reality, I would that door would shut back immediately. And I was like, Okay, nope, I'm I just I can't. And I knew the moment I would let everybody else in, they would immediately say, You have like you need to walk away.

SPEAKER_06 16:13

But I wasn't ready to do that. There was just never even that one bestie that you were just completely open with.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Um Yeah, they are all they were all blindsided. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

I say this all the time those that matter don't care. Like you're gonna feel like you're gonna be judged if you have these situations where you have to come out, like come clean, I wanna say, like um, but there's always gonna be people in your life that care about you enough to go, hey, I'm on your side, I've got your back.

SPEAKER_06 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:41

Like you just you have to find the right person. Like you can tell a hundred people, five of them might actually give a shit. Um those are the people that are gonna help you out. They're gonna they're gonna be the ones that get your back, and um they're the ones they're gonna help you figure out the situation you're in. Um, this is a a prime example of of um just kind of holding it in, being stoic. Like we we always talk about how we gotta stop being the stoic men and uh actually share our emotions with each other and talk about these feelings so that we don't bottle them up and then blow up all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:13

Um and I think that that's kind of kind of how your relationship kind of fell apart is you just got to the point where you didn't have anybody to talk to about it, and then you said, I can't do this anymore, blew up and said, This is it, and you just cut the head off all at one time.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

I will say I did have a coworker who had also previously gone through a divorce. So I probably did open up to her more than a lot of my actual like closest friends, and she has turned into be one of my closest friends because you just when you start telling the truth, she was kind of like, girl, what are you doing? Like, why are you why you're so great? Why are you you know she was almost showing me my worth, which did help. You know, you can hear it from so many people, but it was kind of like having her question me, like, what are you doing? Like, you don't deserve this. Do you want your daughter to go through this? Do you want to have children with him? And like, you know, have them go through the same thing. And I was like, oh my gosh, you're right. Like, yeah, so um it had the it had stopped, or I had stopped looking, I'll say, for a while. So jump closer to time of um, we were a COVID wedding that got postponed for a year and a half. So then there was that. Like we had already paid so much money, our families lost so much money. So I was like, oh my gosh, we really are like, we're in this, we're dedicated. I had waited for so long to get engaged. I had waited so like everything. I was like, also, you're just like you're in your like mid-20s, later 20s, you're just told you've got to follow these, get married, get like, you know, you gotta have kids, you gotta do these. And I thought I was trying to do the right thing by pushing through. Um, and so come time of the wedding, I was hoping things would change and a lot didn't. Um, and I I honestly I stopped looking for a little while because I was like, oh, this is peaceful because I'm not looking. And the moment, the moment I went, it would just be like right back to square zero.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

The same same reason you didn't tell anybody because you knew if you told somebody I'd have to feel they were gonna have to ask you those questions, like what the hell are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yes, and there's like so much I feel like I can't even I I've shared with you a little bit before this like on a podcast, I just there was so much worse that I couldn't even share because it's just that bad. And you put up with it, and I'm sure everyone in the relationship has gone through things you don't like. I still care for him. I want him, I don't want to be with him, but it's not my pro I still hope him well. So there's just certain things I just feel like I can't divulge into because it's just damning. And I finally had to choose me and choose like a future that was better than what it was. And it pretty much like blew up like a lot of people that were around us. And I think that's the hard part for a lot of people when they decide to leave. Um, is you don't just grieve the partner, you grieve like that future you were thinking of. You grieve like um your friendships, the family. Like that's I think that uh that's probably harder for me. It's probably harder for me to leave them than it was to leave him because I I had already kind of over time lost that love. Like it had been chipped away. I get it. Right.

SPEAKER_06 20:05

So I have I have my ex-wife's grandmother who still sends me a birthday card, and I mean it's a handmade birthday card. I would I cherish that every year. We were together for 18 years. Like I got 18 years worth of birthday cards from this woman. Like she's part of my life, whether we're together or not. Like losing the family is also the other half of that, right? It's yeah, it's never just the one person, it's the unit.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

The in-laws, the the the cousins that you got to go and all.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Oh my gosh, if I could only say a message out to all the cousins, like I I also felt like I then, you know, you've got this weird layer of social media where you like don't you're like, what do I do? Do I keep following? I don't know. I was like, I have to just kind of separate because you would see micro stuff, and I was like, I have to get away from this. I can't see it. And nor do I want them stalking me or talking about me. I just kind of wanted to move on, which makes me so sad. So if any of the if this podcast gets those people, just no, I still love you and thank you guys, you're great. But it just, yeah, it wasn't meant to be.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

Um so you mentioned that the cheating wasn't the only thing. What were some of the other things that you looked past in um this relationship that you how in hindsight now should have picked up on and said, hey, this isn't what I want?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, there was a lot of the immaturity and he would blame a lot on ADHD. So I have a hard time with this and I don't want to get canceled because I have ADHD. Zach is ADHD. It's like a very common thing a lot of people suffer from. But what I don't deal with well is blaming and using it as an a crutch or an excuse or as to why you can't perform. So I would notice it with his career, and he would be dropping the ball frequently, and he would always blame ADHD. And I'm sure it had a partial, but there was also like responsibilities. You just have to grow up, pull your pants up, be a big boy, and figure out. And there was just, I couldn't trust him with finances. It was like constantly. We were already limited on funds living in a very expensive city. Also, I'm a student. Like, and he was like wasting $300, $400 on Pokemon Go, like frequently. It was no so many red flags. And it was just like the mature.

SPEAKER_06 22:15

He was also playing Pokemon Go. I was playing Pokemon Go. I wasn't buying anything.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Were you buying the Pokemon coins for $300? Let me tell you.

SPEAKER_06 22:22

I didn't spend a cent on that. Maybe, maybe not all at once, but yes, I was spending Pokemon Go.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Side eye judging right now. That was just one thing. And it was like when you're already emo, when you're already financially struggling, you're like, man, we really this is like we gotta dial in here. Um, and like I said, being that emotionally stunted 22, 23 year old, not matching me where I was, like, even amidst arguments and conversations, and it was just we just couldn't get past so many things. And um, when I would try to like talk things through, because again, and Zach probably can attest to this, I'm a big like therapy person. I'm like, we're gonna work through this. Like, no, no, no, no, we're not just no, we're gonna work through this because I was putting up with so much for so long. I was like, no, no, no, we like have to work this through. And of course, that can be exhaustive, but it's also, yes, I know I'm sure you can agree. Like it's work, it's work into a relationship, but you also are like two individuals trying to come together and make something, especially one that's kind of started on a rocky ground. We have to come to a like a meeting point here, or it's never gonna thrive. And when we would never like have successful good conversations and learning, or they were always filled with a bunch of smoke and lies. You're kind of like, okay, I can't do this. I can't be, you know, and and I felt very justified kind of. Um, so after I left him, his job also fired him. So I was like, okay, like I'm not crazy. Like he was also probably this much of dropping the ball at work as he is as a partner, like missing bills, missing payments, paying for things for months not knowing and just not staying on top of it. And I just, yeah, it was awful.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Um I want to go back to the point where you made about you know working things out at this at the time um being exhausting. It it actually at the moment feels very over overwhelming. Um we we talk about this and you you look on TikTok and you show me these videos with um you know the psychiatrists, psychologists about um the types of uh avoidant, what is it, avoidant, um anxious avoidance or yeah, yeah. There's all different types and how excessive and in

Why Staying Felt Easier Than Leaving

SPEAKER_05 24:30

the moment you're so fired up that um you either want to get it taken care of immediately or you shut down. Um and I I'm I'm one of those that shuts down. It just feels everything's overwhelming. Um you feel like you're not good enough for a failure, um, and that makes you just not want to proceed anymore. Um but a as we've done these things, as we've had arguments and we've gotten past them, um, it makes you realize that when you uh sit down and talk about it, if you just take a breath and you sit there for a minute in quiet and think about it, um getting it out at the time is is so much more productive than sitting on it and then letting it boil and then yelling and then exploding later on or holding that in and then becoming resentful of your partner.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

Um Yeah, because then it becomes something that it's not actually about. It's about all the stuff you had on the back burner for the last month, two months, however long it built up, and it has nothing to do about the toilet paper going on backwards or the fact that you left cheese on a plate or the fact that you like it has nothing to do with that anymore. It has everything to do with the all the stuff you just buried and buried and buried until it collapses.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

It's like you're trying to clean the entire house in one hour. Yeah, you're like exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

I I this is I get from my dad, which I hate this, but it's I liken it to like a snowball going down like an avalanche and it's like going down rapidly. But the m the longer it goes, the more it's collecting, right? It's picking up trees, it's picking up picking up limbs, more snow, and it gets just this massive thing when it's like if we could just handle it now, I'm I won't snowball down and become this really big eruption of crap. Because I, if I sit and think about it, I'm gonna think of a hundred things that I can bring up, which again, these are things you gotta work through. And I'm sure I did this in my last relationship. So the thing I always say in relationships is like there's two sides, and I'm sure I was probably difficult to handle at times, and I'll take every bit of accountability for that, um, which is what I encourage a lot of people to do in divorce is like really focus on yourself. And I think that's part of the reason um that I was so confident in my decision to leave was because I felt like I'd lost myself and I like the person who again once you got to that stage, I was like, I can't go back now. Like I don't I don't know how to like we say it all the time.

SPEAKER_05 26:56

You have to take care of yourself first. Yeah, you have to be able to love yourself and be happy with yourself before you can even think about trying to uh take care of your partner in any way that's um gonna be beneficial for the relationship. Yeah, um, so post-divorce is like a kind of a learning experience, um, but it's also kind of a rebirth. Like yeah, you come out of the the ashes is a phoenix, right? Right. I tell people this all the time when they're thinking about you know the shame and the hurt and the pain that they're gonna go through once they we have a friend who's currently in this situation and um struggling pretty pretty badly with uh you know finances and um emotions and going back and forth between sadness and anger. And and I told her, I was like, listen, it's gonna suck for a little while. But when you get out of this and you pull yourself back up, you're gonna be stronger than you've ever been in your entire life. And and that comes from going through this experience and learning from it, but also from learning how to love yourself afterwards, because we have all been through that. When you go through that that divorce phase, you feel like you're a failure, you feel like you've uh lost a piece of yourself. Uh and finding that again's hard, but it's it's very, very beneficial once you get out of it, take care of yourself and find that piece again. Um because everybody around you is going to benefit from it.

SPEAKER_06 28:17

Yeah, and and honestly, the reason things go bad for a lot of people is because you did give up pieces of yourself over and over and over again, whether it was in compromise um or doing the compromising. Um, and and either side of those, that coin, you you are constantly giving up a s a piece of yourself, and you gotta learn how to find yourself all over again when you finally get divorced. Um and getting on the other side is not fun.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

And giving up pieces of yourself, it it that also includes like your own like coping mechanisms. Like I I'm I was writing poetry before you know when I got married, and going into going through the marriage, I've actually stopped writing. And you know, and that just not having that outlet anymore. That was the word I was looking for a moment ago. Not having that outlet to be able to process and handle my emotions made it more made me more explosive later on down the line.

SPEAKER_05 29:16

Yeah. Yeah. That's I I'm very lucky because Kelly's very um forgiving when I say I'm I gotta go to the gym. I just gotta get this this energy out. It's become my therapy. Um I I encourage everybody uh that's gone through a divorce or going through a divorce to find that outlet, uh, whether it's a hobby or exercise or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:39

Um it's a good way to take your mind off of what you're going through for a little bit and also to work through things.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Um and not take it out on your partner.

SPEAKER_05 29:48

And not take it on your partner.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

I think that's what a lot of men are really guilty of. I have a lot of friends going through stuff um that men who struggle with emotional uh getting out that outlet and kind of regulating emotions, um, I feel like struggle such a uh without and taking it out on their partner, right? And then it becomes this thing that they're not meaning to take it out, but they're the closest punching bag, right? You're just the person that's always there and always gonna come back, right? It's like the punching bag. Punch it's gonna come back. But it feels like when you feel like you're the punching bag. Don't actually punch it. No, don't actually have to tell men this, but here we are.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

No, yeah. There's a lot of women to hit to. Okay. Okay, okay, abuse works both ways.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

That's true. I know, but it's 2026. We need to do that. We need to be past this.

SPEAKER_05 30:37

We get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Yeah. Um, I actually like

Immaturity Money Problems And Blame

SPEAKER_00 30:40

typed something up. I've kind of gotten inspired watched when you guys to ask me to kind of share um the feelings I went through. So I again, Zach always likes to call it the TikToks. I went on and just tried to like kind of ration through my thoughts here, trying to like put words into kind of like a coherent thought of what I went through. And Phil, I was inspired, tried to kind of type this into kind of like a poetry. So I'm gonna read you kind of like what we've already summarized and kind of gone through. So I just want to hear your thoughts on it. Okay. People who don't know my story might think I just woke up one morning, lost my mind, and decided to blow my life up for sport. Um, but that's not and never how these stories really happen. To quote my Lord and Savior, Taylor Swift, it was death by a thousand cuts. It wasn't one catastrophic moment. It was the slow erosion of a relationship over years. It started with tiny things, micro abandonments, some from him and some from me. I slowly abandoned myself. I loosened my boundaries just to keep the peace. I became fluent in saying, it's fine, I don't need anything, I'll handle it. You shrink a little, you bend a little, you sweep one more thing under the rug because it's easier than another argument. Easier than disappointing someone, easier than admitting something isn't okay, easier than admitting you made a mistake. Um, those moments seemed so insignificant on their own, but they're not. They're tiny surrenders of yourself. And then one day you wake up and realize you're living a life that doesn't even feel like yours anymore. And even harder, you don't recognize or even particularly like the woman your circumstances have shaped you into. People often point to the ending as if that's where the story began, and it wasn't. My deep end moment wasn't chaos, it was clarity. It was the quiet, undeniable knowing that I could not keep living a life that required me to lie to myself about what I wanted for my future. For years, I justified things that hurt. I forgave more than I probably should have because that's what we're taught. Love looks like. We hear that marriage is hard, relationships take work, commitment means sacrifice, and while all of that is true, people who haven't lived your story are often the first to tell you to keep enduring it. Um, they hand you cliches instead of curiosity, they tell you to fight harder without ever asking what you've already survived. Eventually I realize there is a difference between fighting for a relationship and fighting to survive inside of one. People say I burned my life down, maybe I did, but the life I burned down was the one I built to survive, not the one I wanted to live. Sometimes the bravest thing you can do is let the old version of your life turn to ashes so you can finally build one that belongs to you. I've always related to Taylor Swift's song Exile because it's such a perfect illustration of how two people can experience the same ending so differently. Bon Ivers, I don't know if I'm saying that right, you are, um, character sings about being blindsided while Taylor is quietly asking and saying, I gave you so many signs. That's what so many people see in divorce. They only witness the ending and assume it came out of nowhere. They don't know the years of conversations, compromises, tears, loneliness, or all the signs that came before it. By the time I finally left, I wasn't making a sudden decision. I was honoring a truth I've been trying to whisper to myself for years.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

I like how you use the symbolism of burning things down and then your ashes.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

I know, I know that Phoenix came around.

SPEAKER_05 33:50

Um it's it's true. Like you once you get through it, the hard part of burning everything down, uh you come out stronger. You always do. You've learned, you've grown. Um financially it might suck. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

I mean, always does. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

What I liked in there was you know, you built the life to survive, it's not the life you wanted to live. Thank you. You know, survival is never thrival. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:17

That's pretty good. I love that's what I wish to see.

SPEAKER_06 34:19

Put it on a shirt. That's what I wish. Damn quote I have up for today. What does it say? Wait, wait, wait, you can't read it today.

SPEAKER_05 34:25

No, no, no. It all ties together. We'll get there in a minute. Okay, so you've um I I know your story. Um there's while you say you were divorced, is there a piece of paper that says you were divorced?

SPEAKER_00 34:40

No. So prior to the wedding, there were things, there were signs, there were we have a lot of cameras in our house, like the we had like that dog, I don't even know what it's called anymore, but like at the Furbo, I think, that can like record. We also had like safety security cameras in our house just to kind of monitor, which I think a lot of people have in 2026. Uh, three months before the wedding, mind you, like they were just, you know, signs again, I've been kind of avoiding. Um, I just remember there was a mask because this was COVID era covering. I came home early one day. Um I got like done early, came home when he wasn't expecting it. Um, and a one of the the cameras in our living room was like covered with a mask, the furbo was turned around, and I found another girl's earring. And he, you know, of course, men are gonna be like, Oh, that was yours. I'm like, no, no, no. Girls know their earrings. I know I don't wear a mini gold hoop. I just know that. I don't, I don't wear it, I don't have it, and you're never gonna convince me that it's mine.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Show me the second one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

And so I'm I'm crazy because I'm also like going through every because then he's like, Oh, it's one of the girls who stayed here, you know, one of his brother, sister, girlfriends, or whoever. And I'm messaging everyone, anyone. I mean, I'm like, is this yours? Is this yours? And then all the people that have been in my house in the last like

Communication Styles Therapy And Outlets

SPEAKER_00 35:55

two months, no. So I was like, no, I'm not going down. And so what I decided was we can go through because we had already paid for everything, marriage, like the wedding, everything was like already ready to go. I was like, I'm just not signing anything legally. Um, mostly I'd had some friends in Nashville who had already gone through similar stuff and just gotten really screwed over with um savings and 401ks and all this stuff. So I was like, okay, well, you know, I don't mind to marry him if it's gonna be it. And this isn't this this isn't gonna be be continued behavior. Um, but I was like, I even told him I was like, you're gonna have to prove yourself. And if you continue, I'm leaving, that's it. And yeah. So I um this is one boundary that I set for myself. And I didn't, we just had a wedding and didn't sign anything legally good. I told him this and he was fine with it. He knew he needed to earn my trust back and I think wanted it too. Um, but I guess I just he just, you know, succumbed to his um weaknesses of social media and girls and I don't even know, dating apps. I don't know. Yeah. So when that behavior all just felt like it was like doing the same thing, I knew the next phase in my life was buying a house, was like having children. And I was like, I I can't move to these next bigger things with somebody who I can't fully trust. And then I just said we have to separate. Like you've got to get your life together, and it's just not gonna be with me.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

So you went through the wedding. Everybody came, everybody thought, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

And that's hard too, right? Because then you feel so guilty. You feel so guilty that like you went through with that, people spent their hard earned money, came to celebrate, and that was also part of it, right? You're like, there's so much guilt, and you feel responsible, and you're like, do I keep pushing through because of that? Like, it's such a hard turmoil thing in your head of what to do next. So eventually, when it just nothing was improving, nothing was getting better, I was like, I have to make this decision for me. And then that's when all my family was like, What? What happened? And my friends were like, I think my friends had started to get a little bit of the story. Some of them knew some things, but no one really knew everything. So when I started sharing, they were like, What? Like, what do you mean? And mind you, I was also in a different city three hours away from them. So it wasn't like we were having powwows every week. And when they were here, we would just be focusing on all the fun and like going and having living our best 20 year years, you know.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

So when you when you finally told them, yeah, and you told them the story, they were pissed. Well, I I the part where you you told them that you didn't actually legally sign anything, were they like high fives everywhere?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Kind of. Uh, they were kind of like, oh, that was smart to do, you know, they were it wasn't like this like high five. It was more just like, I hate that you even had this forethought going. I hate that you were suffering so much that you had the thought to do this and not tell us. And you know what I mean. And then I'm sure there was part of it where they might have been hurt that I didn't share, but I like I said, they're just I also couldn't, I didn't want to

Death By A Thousand Cuts Poem

SPEAKER_00 38:55

separate because of somebody's influence. It had to be my own decision. Because then I would like say, if if I like my mother or like a friend was like, no, no, no, you've got to do it. You need it, wouldn't have been my own decision. And then I would have potentially looked back and been like, oh, like which stupid. But again, it had to come from me.

SPEAKER_05 39:13

But when you when you told them, did anybody at all say, Man, that's that's jacked up, or was everybody there in support saying, We love you, yeah, I I'm glad that you're happy now? Like, was was there open arms when you told everybody?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I think so. I don't think anybody was really um kind of like cra you know, in this day and age, I think they were all like, Okay, you're just protecting yourself and your better interests.

SPEAKER_05 39:39

Those that matter don't care. Yeah, they don't care. And I that's a that's a big thing to you have to get through your head as especially as dudes, um talk about these things. Find your group, talk about them. Let them out, get them out. I say uh I I I'm I'm beating a dead horse here, but like it's very important for all of us to realize that it's better for you mentally and emotionally and physically to just let it out. Yeah. Just talk about it. And it's okay to talk about it. Don't be the stoic hard ass that can't have emotions or feelings. It's okay to talk about these things.

SPEAKER_06 40:14

Sounds like that's true for our dudettes, too. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 40:16

Yeah, just you just find your people. Find a stranger that can become your people. Like you know, you never know. Um we're we're pushing 45 minutes here. This has been very interesting talk.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Uh yes. Very good one. Thank you for sharing your story.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I'm over here sweating.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

She's nervous.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

It's hard to have the spotlight on your eyes. It's also you just kind of kind of I'm combing through this politely as much as I can.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Without, like I say, going into detail. So I'm like kind of nervous. I'm like, what stories can I share that are PG and still reasonable.

SPEAKER_05 40:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, yeah. No, it's like I said, it's uh there is still, even though despite everything I've shared, there is still respect amongst the family and friends, and there's just things I just like I won't go back down. They were so hurtful and so bad that I just yeah. Like that was when I share with family and friends. And we're like, what are you doing? Like, what are you putting yourself through?

SPEAKER_05 41:13

Yeah, and and I think that this you talking about him not really ever wanting to grow up. I think that there's a lot of guys out there that really don't see that they could be the problem. Um, and I think it's very important for us to all get a little introspective and and look within ourselves and say, Hey, these are my faults that I need to work on and actually work on them. I I think it's very beneficial for everybody to to grow as as adults, as people, um and kind of help prevent these things from happening, right? Like if he'd if he'd changed his ways and he'd have gotten better and he would have actually worked on himself and you guys would probably still be together.

The Wedding Without Legal Marriage

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Probably wouldn't be doing this podcast right now. Probably needed to start that at hour 49, but what I mean she might be like you, Matt. She might not see red flags.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

Yeah. Um I think it's also important to say uh like keep aspiring for new things. Like I think sometimes guys get into that point, they've got everything that they wanted. It's very simple. And then why do I need to work to be better? I've got everything I want. Yeah, you get comfortable. Keep finding new things you want to do, keep finding a dream or something to aspire to.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

Yeah, this is this goes goes back to the yes man thing, right? Yeah. Like get out there, be a yes man, go to do something new, do something different, do something you never thought you would do, because that might spark something in you, and then you have a you know a cool story, or you have a cool event, or you have you know some new friends and new community to hang out with. Or a new passion. Or a new passion, yeah. Like you you never know until you try if you're gonna like doing something. Uh get out there and just kind of like go through life, fuck it up, don't fuck it up, like learn from it, live it, just go out there and and and experience the world. Yeah, um, especially post-divorce. That I think that's the biggest thing is a lot of people will hole up, they'll hermit. Um and that's detrimental. You you fall into vices, you um you you you lose a piece of yourself when you when you shell up like that.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

Um so just get out there, live your lives. Matt's got some words of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Before Matt, I want one more piece of advice to men.

SPEAKER_05 43:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I just two things, and maybe it's a women too, but mostly the just like the social media of this day and age, I just put a word of caution because comparison is like a thief of joy. And I think what can destroy so many relationships, and I know so many women struggle with their men on social media and liking pictures. And I just say like have respect. I think that's the biggest thing. I know social media is like fun, it's enjoyable, but it's also like there is hurt that comes along with pornography and what people put on Instagram, and it's pretty much pornography, right? Anymore, there's just so much available at your disposal and in a partnership that is hard. If they see see this, it is hurtful.

Social Media Respect Know Your Worth

SPEAKER_00 44:05

I don't care what anyone says. There might be some girls that are fine with it, whatever. But for a lot of women, it is very triggering and very difficult. So I would just give caution, just be careful on social media and try to be respectful as much to your partner. And I don't know, you wouldn't want that to happen to you. And then my little conversation to the girlies, if anybody's listening, I saw this and also loved this quote. It said, Never come off the top shelf just because someone can't reach. And that was what I felt had happened. I felt like I was a top shelf liquor and I was down there on the wells just getting played around. So that's my little piece of advice. But it's good for men too. But that was just my two cents before.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

Know your worth.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Know your worth. There you go. That was it.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

All right, Matt. Go ahead and give us your words of wisdom here.

SPEAKER_06 44:49

Well, if this wasn't like pulled directly out of your poem, I think I'm quoting you at this point. It says the goal was to live, but somewhere along the way it became surviving.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Wow. How do you know? I feel like you knew. You knew what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_05 45:07

All right. Um, on that, uh, divorced dude's out. Divorced dude's out.