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You're listening to People Behind the Benefits, the podcast exploring the people, ideas, and decisions shaping the employee benefits industry. Thanks for being here

Speaker 2 0:11

We'll, we'll start out by just saying Thanks Rob. I I appreciate your time. I know it's a, a gloomy but warming up Friday here in Michigan. Um, thank, thanks for your time and joining the People Behind Benefits Podcast. Yeah.

Speaker 0:24

Pleasure to be here. Appreciate the time.

Speaker 2 0:27

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I figure where we can start. I think the, the people know me a little bit at this point, but I'm Jordan Kozlowski, the host, um, with Benefit Flow. Excited to be joined by Rob Danzer. I'll let you do a little intro of yourself and, and your role over at EDSI.

Speaker 0:43

Yeah, sounds good. Short and sweet. Uh, just like me, I like to say. Short for sure. Maybe not. Sweet. That's okay. Um, yeah. Rob Dancer, CFO at EDSI, I've been at the company about 17 and a half years. Yeah. And we've done, uh, we do government work, um, workforce development work, I should say. Mm-hmm. Uh, for the government and some training, consulting. Uh, so yeah, I've seen a lot of growth over the last several years and it's been fun.

Speaker 2 1:10

Awesome. And I know one of the things I've noticed too is, is you've been there like 17 and a half years or so. And I feel like from what I remember, your HR person has also been, so I, I guess tell me a little bit about the culture at EDSI and, um, why you've stayed as long as you have and you know, what, what that looks like with your team.

Speaker 1:28

Yeah, it's great. Yeah. I think on the, you know, executive or management team, I'm probably one of the lower tenured, uh, people, right? So it's, yeah, it's great culture. You know, Kevin Schnee is our CEO servant leader and owner and uh, yeah, he is just, you know, culture is number one there. And obviously it shows what the tenured employees, which has been great. I mean, we've had a lot of. Good growth personally and professionally. Uh, like I said, when, you know, I first got there, they were already on their way, uh, to growing rapidly. We were about 300 people. Um, 22 million in revenue or you know, just under a hundred million and 900 some people. Mm-hmm. Uh, now and yeah, that's, you know, a result of a lot of great operations people. Great it, HR talent and obviously great leadership by Kevin. So. It's been a fun ride.

Speaker 2 2:14

It's, it's always interesting when you join organizations who, who really have that servant leadership. And I met you and Kevin, oh geez, probably what, a year and a half ago now for coffee and Yeah. You know, he's, he seems to be one of those people that people just gravitate towards and want to follow. Is that, is that how you would, you would describe him as well?

Speaker 2:32

Yeah. I mean, there's not enough, you know, caring, generous, uh, person out there. Yeah. Really cares for the individual people get to know him on a personal level. Right. So, yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 2:42

Yeah. And I feel like that bleeds into culture. I've wor, I've worked for a CEO, uh, back at the, the tpa I worked for that, I think I told you about Rob. Mm-hmm. Um, he was the same, actually. Funny enough, his name was Rob. Um, and he, he just had that leadership quality as well, where I've tried to follow him, but there haven't been open positions in the last couple years. So, yeah, he's, uh, he, he's one of those leaders as well. But I, I think culture's important. And then. Um, bleeding into benefits. I know one of the things that you and I have talked about in most of our conversations is just the progression of eds i's benefits package and kind of like where you started and where you are now. Um, I know you, how, how did you describe it to me? You didn't say you were behind the times. You, you thought you were kind of in the middle. But for an employer in Michigan, you guys are really ahead of it. With being self-funded, carving out your pharmacy, being with the tpa, a um, a lot of employers, especially in Michigan, aren't like that. So I, I guess my point in the question here is, talk to me a little bit about when you started at EDSI, where the benefits were, and then take me through the transition or the, the progression, if you will, of, of where the benefits are today.

Speaker 3:50

That's great. Yeah. Give a lot of credit to a lot of people that we've been able to work with over the years too. Right. Uh, giving great advice and, um, um, experience that they had.

Speaker 2 4:00

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:00

For us, I think the other thing, like we're a Michigan based company, like we're headquartered here, but we have, you know, only about 35 or 40 of our individuals are in Michigan and we have a lot of offices throughout the country. So I think that also led to us. Pushing to make decisions or changes faster than maybe we would've if we were just based in Michigan and, you know, relying on the blues or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. So when we were growing or adding offices in Pittsburgh and Philly and, you know, New York, as we kind of, uh, made our way across several different states, we were adding, you know, different brokers or different networks or whatever else. So it was kind of when I first got there a little bit, you know. It's separated, segregated, dysfunctional in many ways, right? So first thing we kind of did is just consolidate that under one umbrella, both on the property casualty and the healthcare side of it. And then, you know, took a few years to really understand it. Um, so we moved to, you know, fully insured blues plan for a few years. And then I think, you know, as we got the. I guess, um, really wanted more data

Speaker 2 5:07

mm-hmm.

Speaker 5:07

To figure out how we can drive down cost. And really at the forefront is just helping our employees better. Right. With the best benefits that we can.

Speaker 2 5:16

Yep.

Speaker 5:16

Uh, being an organization that helps a lot of people, 'cause we do run said workforce development programs, so we're helping people, you know, get reemployed that are, um, unemployed or underemployed type of deal. So I think at the heart of it, like we wanna help people and we just thought. As an organization on the corporate side, the best way we can help others is to help our employees who help the others. Right. So,

Speaker 2 5:36

mm-hmm.

Speaker 5:36

Yeah, I think that led us to, you know, push, you know, maybe the envelope to your point, a little bit quicker than we, we might have if we were just in Michigan or, you know, just under the blues for a while. So,

Speaker 2 5:46

no, that makes sense. And so talk to me about the, I guess, how you analyze it, either with your consultant that you worked with, or just from a pure financial perspective when you looked at being self-funded or fully insured. Excuse me. And making that transition to self-funding, did you see a big cost savings prior and then did you realize it, uh, you know, years later? Talk to me about that.

Speaker 6:09

Yeah, I think we, when we got into it, honestly, a lot of the things were, you know, it's always scary to go from fully insured to, to self-insured because of the things you don't, you don't know or that you hope don't happen, right. Uh, the first couple years or whatever. So, yeah, I think a, we were looking at a lot of the data and you never get as much data as you'd love to get.

Speaker 2 6:28

Yep.

Speaker 6:28

Particularly on the self, you know, fully insured. Now, we haven't been fully insured in a long time. That might have changed, but at the time, right, we were always asking for information. It was like, well, you're getting an 18% raise. Well it looks like our, you know, claims were only 8% higher. Yeah, you're getting an 18% raise. I'm like, wait a minute. Type of deal. Right? So the back and forth. So I think that pushed us, you know, to lean towards, um. You know, trying to jump to that self-insured. And then, yeah, I think diving in with good people to help and understanding, you know, the stop-loss packages and how the networks work and having a great tpa a mm-hmm. You know, beside us and, um, at the time, like great, you know, covering up the pharmacy right from the get go too was super helpful. And we had a great partner on that side too.

Speaker 2 7:06

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:07

Right. From get, so, I mean, we saved. I think that the number was like 1.2 million bucks the first year only with, you know, four oh people.

Speaker 2 7:14

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:14

Of what we would've paid under a fully insured plan versus a self-insured plan. It's like, well, you know, cash flow is a little bit different too, so you worry about that, right? With, it's a little bit of up and down as you're paying claims type of deal. But you know, we had gotten a little bit better at managing that. So yeah, all those things came together really well. And then, yeah, it just allows us to continue to look at different options, uh, over the last several years.

Speaker 2 7:35

It gives you the flexibility, right?

Speaker 7:38

Tons of flexibility, which is nice. Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:40

Yeah. That's the part I like, especially from the consulting side and you know, the different companies I've worked for that you know of, Rob. I just think that's the. That's the exciting part of being self-funded because then you can say, this program looks great. Let's add that on. As long as it makes sense to help the people. Um, and it's a benefit they'll use versus a fully insured, you know, you might not see a savings or just might be harder to implement. So that's one thing I've always loved about it is being flexible. Um, one of the other things that you mentioned though, was the pharmacy side. Talk to me a little bit about either like PBM or, or how you guys chose that, and then also I think you have on uh, a Shark's card. Is that correct?

Speaker 8:20

That's correct, yeah. Yeah, we did that just a few years ago, four or five years ago. Uh, three or four years ago, we had the Sharks for the specialty drug piece. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you know, just the evolution I guess. 'cause. Self-insured, you know, try to look at the TPA A and the PBM and all those components every year. You always go out to market for your stop loss, right? Depend, depending on how you're doing. We joined a captive on the, on the p and c side, uh, in 2016, and then 2020 we joined a captive for the stop loss, right on the healthcare side, which has also been super beneficial, not just financially. Resource wise. 'cause now you've got 150 other members in this captive that have a bunch of other experiences with different things. So, and our, you know, broker's been great and uh, you know, a lot of other consultants have been great over the years of bringing different things to us, right. So,

Speaker 2 9:07

yep.

Speaker 9:07

Um, yeah, sharks has been great just for the specialty drug piece and saved us a million bucks a year for the last three years on, yeah. It's a particular thing, so

Speaker 2 9:15

it's crazy. So I guess for the, maybe the people out there who are like. HR leaders or other financial executives? I, I tell, I guess talk to me about what, what the reason that you wouldn't do it is, is there any, was there any downside of what you saw to doing something like that?

Speaker 9:31

You know, it's funny, and I, I forgot to think to even mention this, going back from, you know, fully insured to, to self-insured, it's the employee disruption piece. You know, being a people's first company we're like, okay, like, what is the disruption gonna be? Because there's, there's always something. Mm-hmm. You just hope to minimize it, communicate it as best as possible. Right. Offer as much help and advice as you can to all of your employees. So we're super worried of anytime we roll something like that out on, it's great to save money, but Right. If it's a big pain for everybody, that's. That's not fantastic. Right.

Speaker 2 10:02

Very

Speaker 10:02

true. Somebody made the comment, I think we talked about this a long time ago, like when we were looking at different things, like even if you have a really crappy health plan, but it's communicated and everybody understands it really well, it gets good reviews from your employees. Yeah. It's like that. That's always just stuck with me.

Speaker 2 10:18

Yeah.

Speaker 10:19

Right. And it's like, all right, well how do. Communicate. 'cause now we have a really good one and I'm not sure it gets the good reverse it always should. Right. So, um, anyway.

Speaker 2 10:28

No, you're, you're spot on. I mean, I think we talked about this with my, uh, the company my sister-in-law works for and just the cost where if it goes up a couple dollars, people are like, oh my gosh. But in reality, they don't realize that their theirs is in the top 1% of, of health plans and they're paying less than 99% of everybody else. So, you know, it's, it's, it's all relative to the company that they work for. But I think the perception is still important of how people view it from a cost perspective, and then how easy it is to use. Right.

Speaker 10:58

Yeah. Well played. Exactly.

Speaker 2 11:00

I think those are the important pieces.

Speaker 11:02

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 11:03

All right. What else do we got? Couple more questions. Those are, those are the good ones. I, you know, I can nerd out on those. Rob, um, what about, what about this? So a message to other executives. 'cause I've also talked to different CEOs, CFOs, and CHROs. Who are, you know, in a mid-size range company, maybe a little smaller than an EDSI, maybe 500 to a thousand employees, but they're deathly scared of going self-funded. Mm-hmm. Um, they're very comfortable in the fully insured model, even with getting 15, 20% increases because it's, it's predictable. What would you say from a financial perspective of, um, how to look at that change or, or what you would recommend?

Speaker 11:42

Yeah, it's interesting and I think that's, you know, the struggle we had again, is the disruption. You know, people love to have, uh, blue Cross Blue Shield or Signal or a like, some card that says like, this is it. And like it's just, it is different. Mm-hmm. And a self-insured plan, right? Because you have your tpa and you, and you do have the network listed and your pharmacy and all that kind of stuff on the card, but it's just different. Right. And I know. A lot of different, you know, my wife worked for a school system, like they're not going away from what they had, uh, type of deal no matter what. So yeah, I think there is a stigma for that, especially on the employee side when it's, you know, not well known. So.

Speaker 2 12:16

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:17

Yeah. I think, like I said, financially it's been fantastic for us with a great TPA partner. Right. Obviously a great broker, first and foremost, but great. TPA partner, great broker, great pharmacy, uh, PBM, uh, partner, so some great partners lined up. And then the communication education pieces. You know, I think everybody knows how big that is.

Speaker 2 12:37

Huge.

Speaker 12:37

Probably the one thing we still struggle with the absolute most, um, but I mean, we've had. Plenty of success stories. Like even with, um, in my own family where, you know, subscription wasn't filled appropriately. Mm-hmm. We called our PBM, they were fantastic, Jordan, at like, so hold on, let me get the pharmacy on the phone. Lemme figure it out for you. Then they wrote a thank you letter to us Right. For calling in.

Speaker 2 13:02

Yeah.

Speaker 13:02

I was like, wait, you helped us. Like, which isn't that right? You would think, you know, so anyway,

Speaker 2 13:07

that's, that's the type of, that's the type of service you want in a partner.

Speaker 13:09

It is. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of unknowns, but, and I think that also right, for us, like I said, it's the cashflow piece. Mm-hmm. A little bit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Design. And there's different ways to stabilize and look at that kind of stuff. So,

Speaker 2 13:22

yep.

Speaker 13:22

I think you, you figure out those things. It's at least a lot of. Benefits.

Speaker 2 13:26

That makes sense. That makes sense. Um, one other thing you mentioned right there that I wanted to talk a little bit further about just 'cause it, it kind of hits home with me and a, a company that I worked for in the past was the education piece. I think it's interesting, especially with the shifting generations in the workforce, how people want to consume that information, right? Because you've still got some people who will open up an email and read the whole thing, and then you've got a large portion, the, the most recent generation and then my generation, the millennials. We just wanna see everything on an app. Um, I, I think I've told you this, Rob. I'm old school. I'd rather pick up the phone and call someone. Yeah. But having the convenience of the app is also nice. So I, I guess talk to me a little bit about what has worked for you all from a communication standpoint and maybe what you're trying to do better this year.

Speaker 14:12

Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of times our CEO is also very good at the videos.

Speaker 2 14:16

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 14:17

True. Putting on communications for a video. So yeah, I think we're trying to leverage that more and have him, um, talk about some of the things that are important on the benefit side or whatever. Mm-hmm. Right. Sorry, before open enrollment or, or, or things like that. So that's helped a little bit more. Um, we had did a, you know, a monthly webinar series on benefits. You get, you get some people, but I mean, everybody's busy doing their day-to-day jobs too, right? So,

Speaker 2 14:40

yep.

Speaker 14:40

Couple things. One thing that worked really well last year is we added about 12 people from across the company to an, uh, benefits committee.

Speaker 2 14:47

Okay.

Speaker 14:48

Um, so to help us make some decisions and just to understand more so we can get more experts out in the field on the benefits. 'cause you're a benefit when you need it, right? Because you understand, like, we had a few people that really leveraged the benefits. They were, they knew it better than I did. Right, for sure. Inside and out and how to leverage it and what plan you should be in and for what. And it was amazing. I hate that they had to leverage it. Right. 'cause they had some issues. Right. But, uh

Speaker 2 15:11

Right.

Speaker 15:11

But anyway, it's, it's, it was interesting perspective. So that's been super beneficial. And we're we, are we just, um. Implemented Workday.

Speaker 2 15:21

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15:21

So not the, but that, it just allows us to be, you know, we had a few different systems that we were on before, so like a different one for expense and our, our ERP was on a different one and HR was on a different one. So I think that being all in one, one system, uh, I'm hoping So you have the app to go to?

Speaker 2 15:40

Yep.

Speaker 15:40

For all things needed. I also hope that helps a little bit.

Speaker 2 15:43

Yeah, that makes sense. I love the idea of the benefits committee. I, I feel like I haven't heard that one as much. But would you, would you say it's been generally helpful and then do other employees go to that committee when they have questions? Is that kind of the idea internally?

Speaker 15:57

Correct. Yeah. Just to have more experts and we were trying to flip it like, you know, maybe a researcher a year or two on the committee and then, you know, we'll get 12 more, uh, individuals on there. Uh, just to have more experts throughout. 'cause we have, you know, 65 offices, some with five, some with 50 people. So it, I mean, it makes it. A little less easy to to communicate.

Speaker 2 16:16

Yeah, no kidding. Well, it's the decentralized workforce and the need for a good culture. It all ties back to that too, right?

Speaker 16:23

Yes. Yeah. Good point.

Speaker 2 16:25

Yeah. So I think we have time for a couple more questions. I want to be cognizant of time today, but one of the things that I feel like I hear a lot of times, no matter the industry, no matter the size of the employer, is just change management. So whether it's a system like Workday, you're changing TPAs, it's a new benefit, whatever it may be. How, how do you all look at change management and how have you looked at it at your career? At EDSI?

Speaker 16:52

Yeah. It, that is a fun one, right? Because everybody reacts to change much differently. Mm-hmm. Um, depending on, uh, many factors, right? Um, so it's, um, always. Not the easiest task for us even. Right. Because I personally love it because I think even like a new system or, um, it gives you just a. A great time to step back, look at what you're doing, how you're doing it, and make it hopefully much more efficient, right? Mm-hmm. Um, in the process, the procedures, the communication, all those types of things. And I think most of the organization is like that, which is helpful. Um, so yeah, I think. Again, I think, you know, the communication piece, like, I think we've gotten better every time we've implemented a new system. And then, I hate to say we've done it three times, you know, in the last 17 years. So we're getting pretty good at it, even though, yep. I hope this is the last time. Uh, so yeah, I think it's, it is super interesting and you know. Like I said, Kevin's a great communicator. That's super helpful. Mm-hmm. Right. So if he can, and I think most of the organization does a good job, you know, open up his messages, you know, once, twice a year or once, twice a week whenever he puts 'em out or whatever. So it's, you know, yeah. Still, still working on it, if I'm being honest with you. But

Speaker 2 18:09

yeah, I think that's a good change policy too, right? You've, you figured some things out through trials and tribulations, and you don't know what you don't know, but you've also got a good framework based on your experience, right.

Speaker 18:20

Yeah. And I think being the company started as a training consulting company, so I think that also helped. And we got in the workforce development, you know, many, many years ago at this point. But, um, love, value stream mapping, right? So look at the process flows, how we make 'em more efficient, what's everybody doing today? So I think that also helps, like we kind of like take the work that we do outside inside as much as possible.

Speaker 2 18:43

Yeah, that's great

Speaker 18:44

to try to help.

Speaker 2 18:44

That's a good way to put it. And not all companies can do that necessarily, right?

Speaker 18:48

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. We're always fantastic as, you know, doing what we say you should do. It's like, but

Speaker 2 18:53

okay. What, what's the saying? Do not as I do, do, do what I say, or something like that.

Speaker 18:59

Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 2 19:00

yeah, yeah. It's

Speaker 19:01

like parenting.

Speaker 2 19:02

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 19:03

Right.

Speaker 2 19:03

Yeah.

Speaker 19:03

You can't swear like, wait a minute. I heard you last week. I was like, hold on, it's d Yeah,

Speaker 2 19:08

yeah. Don't, don't tell our almost 2-year-old that,

Speaker 19:10

yeah, yeah. I'll be, I'll be good today.

Speaker 2 19:12

Yeah, exactly. Oh, man. Okay. What about, let's see. We got a couple more questions. I think one of the things that, one of the things that you and I talked a lot about was, was the Workday implementation. So as far as change management goes and like one one, so you're what, almost a quarter into Workday now, what's the perception, Ben, and I guess what would you go back and change, if anything? From, from an implementation perspective and, and how are you guys viewing it in this year?

Speaker 19:43

Yeah. Hook me up to the lie detector right now. Huh? We'll see. Um, so yeah, quite honestly, I think it, we knew it was a big undertaking. There's a lot of flexibility within Workday that you get with different business processes.

Speaker 2 19:59

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 20:00

It's, I think, you know, it's obviously been used by. Ridiculously large organizations for a long period of time. And, you know, coming downstream to mid-market, um, was great for us. 'cause, you know, they've been a great partner, honestly, for us. And then us learning that system is totally different than anything else, right? We have a ton more flexibility in what we do, how we do it, um, and business processes that we can build within the system. And again, they've, they've been great at partnering with us on that. We probably didn't do the best job of saying, Hey, these are the outputs. We want to make sure we have great inputs. Mm-hmm. And the business processes and stuff. The other piece of it is like, you, you have a lot of opportunity to, to, for security and roles and, you know, all those types of things. So who could see information, who can run information. So if you give somebody a report. They don't have the information to see the reports, so they run a report with no information. Like some of those things, like we're still working through as we're leveraging the system more. That makes sense. Dashboards and reporting type of thing. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know that we should have or could have done anything different, but maybe, you know, ending or beginning more with an end in mind. So the benefit honestly, that we have, we're now doing the fins, we're doing the financial piece this year. For Workday too. So we did all the HR time, attendance, payroll, right. Talent, everything, uh, last year. And the rest of the information is coming in to Workday this year. So

Speaker 2 21:21

yeah, I think that's a good 2, 2, 2 year phased approach then, right?

Speaker 21:24

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2 21:25

Yeah. Versus going it all at once. Well, that would've been a year implementation if you did it all at once, right?

Speaker 21:30

Least. Yeah. And we just, yeah, it gives a pause. We learned a lot of lessons from the first time, so we can kind of, you know, do a little bit better job this time.

Speaker 2 21:37

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm gonna shift gears a little bit because I, as I think about our, our hopeful audience and the people who are listening and viewing this, it's, it's gonna be those consultants like I was when I was at Aon. Um, maybe some producers getting into the business, maybe some tenured producers. I guess, what would you tell them from. Everything that we've talked about today from change management culture, your guys' journey at EDSI with, with benefits changing, what would you say is like the number one thing you look to in a partner to help you as a, as an employer? Organization?

Speaker 22:13

Boy, uh, that's great.

Speaker 2 22:16

Or, or just generally a couple if, if not pinned down to one.

Speaker 22:19

Yeah. Um. It's funny because there are so many talented people, you being one of 'em, honestly, Jordan, um, out there in the community that all offer like one or two incredibly great things. Like whether it's, you know, processes, a different way of thinking, something they've seen mm-hmm. Just the education or experiences that they've had. Um, so it's, yeah, it's. It's, it's a, it's a difficult one. I, you know, I personally love, like, you know, many of the people that I've met are great about getting to know us, understanding all the things that we've done where we're at today and we're like, Hey, you've done a pretty good job. Or, these are one or two things I'm might consider, or, you know, let me know if any of the partners you have today are slipping. Like, love to get in there, uh, and, and help you out. Type of deal. And you know, I know a lot of different places can offer different things. We're super loyal, so, yeah. Um, I think that's good. Right. And, and our partners have done a fantastic job. Yeah. It, it seems like Right. Maybe not in every single area, but shoot, like we haven't done a great job in every area either. Right, right. Back at,

Speaker 2 23:31

mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:31

At us. So yeah. It's, that's, that's a difficult one. Um,

Speaker 2 23:35

no, I think, I think the loyalty's good though. I think if you were. Loyal to a fault and you're having a bad benefits experience complaining employees about benefits and increasing costs, then I then I think you maybe might look at it different. Right?

Speaker 23:49

Great point.

Speaker 2 23:50

Yeah.

Speaker 23:50

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:51

But I think, you know, from, from my perspective, my goal was always to give as much information as possible, um, whether or not we're gonna work together tomorrow or the next day. You know, as far as all of the great information you've received from different folks like that or conversations you've had, what would you say has stuck out like the most? Is it a, a tool? Is it a way of thinking? Talk to me a little bit about that.

Speaker 24:16

Yeah, again, I think it's nuggets everywhere, which is crazy, right? Because it's like, oh, like your plan is pretty good except for this one place, and you probably could do this to improve it. And I, I say that and I don't. I also don't wanna, like, you know, you brought some great things to us and I'm just like, Hey broker, I just learned this. Why weren't we doing that? Right? Because I don't wanna steal your idea. Like I kind of just, a lot of times I'll keep those in the back of my. You know, list.

Speaker 2 24:42

Yeah.

Speaker 24:42

And just, it will add up over time. I'm like, okay. Well obviously I feel like we can get more here than we can here. I think it might time, you know, to go back to market refresh, whatever the case may be, so.

Speaker 2 24:52

Yep.

Speaker 24:53

Yeah. I hate to say like, Hey, these guys just said this. Let's go do it. Um,

Speaker 2 24:56

right, right. Which, you know, I, I don't know if I told you this, but that happened to me a few times.

Speaker 25:01

Uh, I'll bet it did. Yeah,

Speaker 2 25:02

I was out there giving really good advice and things, um, and I had a few employers just basically ghost me after they implemented the captive that I told 'em about. And, you know, you know, me at this point, Rob, that wasn't why I was doing it. I was doing it 'cause I wanted to help people and, um, a broader sense of employees if I could. So that was always my goal at least.

Speaker 25:22

Yep. That's great. Yeah. I think you'll go a long ways that way. And Karma, right. Comes back.

Speaker 2 25:28

It does. It It can. It can,

Speaker 25:30

yeah,

Speaker 2 25:31

it can. Well, cool. Well, that, that was a big part that I wanted to round out. Um, one of the things I talked to on the last, uh, episode of this, I, I was talking to an HR leader and we talked about similar, similar things like this of like. Getting attention of, of employers. Um, we've talked about the cultures and one of the things that the HR leader I was talking to mentioned was not to come in with all these shiny objects, but like a, a solid proof case of a strategy that works in a real solution. That, yeah, that stuck with me because I feel like, you know, one of the things I did early on at my career at AON was like, Hey, check out this thing. You can, you know, you can go reference based pricing. You can do this. Um, but I think it's also about the strategy that's in place and, and how to get there.

Speaker 26:17

Yes. Not surprisingly that HR person put it way better than I just did, which is great. But I think that's it too, is like people come in and like, Hey, we can do this and this and this. It's like, is that even something we need, right. Or is this something that we didn't already do or think about? Type of deal. I was like, I don't know, I just love, you know, to get to know you, um, understand the business really well and ask great questions about, you know, things that we may or may not have considered in in the past. Right.

Speaker 2 26:42

Absolutely. And the HR leader I spoke to said something along those lines, too, UN understand our business actually actually get to know us before you just start throwing a bunch of solutions at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Speaker 26:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Speaker 2 26:53

Right. Yeah. Well, cool, Rob. That's about it. Anything, anything else you wanted to cover or, or mention to our audience before we sign off today?

Speaker 27:02

I'm sure there's a few things I'll think about tomorrow or in an hour knowing like, oh shoot, I should have said this, or shoulda have said that, but yeah, nothing off hand. No, you did a great job. Uh. Prepping me a little bit too, and that was great. So thank you.

Speaker 2 27:16

Absolutely. Hopefully the questions helped. Um, we didn't get to a few, so maybe we'll have to have you back on in, in a couple months and, and talk through some of those additional ones.

Speaker 27:23

Oh, you poor audience, okay.

Speaker 2 27:27

I don't know. They might disagree. They might.

Speaker 27:28

Yeah. I'm sure they will. That's great.

Speaker 2 27:31

Well, thanks Rob. Um, appreciate your time on a Friday. Hope you have a great weekend and, uh, thanks for being, being on the podcast.

Speaker 27:38

Sounds good. Good to see you again, Jordan. Thank you.