Vinnie Fiorello on The New Punk Rock Playbook

This week, we pull back the curtain on what actually moves the needle for bands right now, from streaming algorithms to live shows. Vinny Fiorello of Less Than Jake joins us to talk personal brand, label realities, the modern “jetpack” moment, and how the Punk Rock Museum keeps the scene’s history alive without trapping it in the past.

We dive into:
• Touring momentum and why the live show still converts
• Algorithms pay-to-play and the fight for attention
• How labels can help and what they cannot fix
• Social media backlash and the value of authenticity

Transcript

Sharpies Autographs And Warm-Up Riffs

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Everything you possibly want to know about the music industry. We have it right here. What's going on, everybody? I am Guns from the Guns Show. This is behind the scenes. Dickie Barrett over to my left and over to the right. Sully Sullivan right there. What's going on, fellas? We are back at it. Another.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Notes look like this. Why would you do this to your notes? You know.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Sometimes you got to express yourself when you're on the. If you're a grown man. You know, that's a that's a good question. Hold on. Do you do you carry a sharpie?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Who do you think I am? Donald Trump?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Decided. That's a fair question. Actually, yo, that a Sharpie. What is the what's the craziest thing? No, but I always but I have to ask for one. Every once in a while. What is the craziest thing that you've ever had to sign besides boobs?

SPEAKER_03 1:16

I never really did that. That was always awkward and uncomfortable to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Sorry, guns.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

No, but anything crazy? I kept you having, did you ever sign a baby or something?

Touring Again And Winning Crowds

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Like I uh I like draw, like if someone said sign my t-shirt, I like drawing an entirely different t-shirt on the back, like a drawing of me. Like, overdo that. Um, I never signed a baby. Shoes and neckties, because you know, people's suits, his my father's suit, you know. I do a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah. You you guys uh recently just uh had a couple more shows up uh up on the uh where'd you go?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Vancouver, Seattle. Yeah. There was nothing to sign though, because we didn't have our boys from Bravado or merchant.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah, yeah. Bravado, yeah. But uh the live show's been going great. Raise your glass, the song is picking up momentum, steam, getting some radio air players well. Talk to us just about that. And Dickie, how good does it feel to be able to go back out on stage and just see the reaction from fans? I like this man right here.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

I don't know if it's because of me.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

I think there's I think that's I like hanging out with Sully and I like I like being around their band. There, it's a great bunch of guys. Sullivan band is is talented. It's you know, you're not standing on stage and going, oh, this is painful. I'm the least talented person on the stage, and the Sullivan band is is really, really talented.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I think that it's interesting watching when you first get on stage. Because look at we're stuck, some people know us, but we're still sort of a unknown thing. And you watch the thing as not in this town, my friend. But the point is, you you watch Bill go into a mosh pit inside of two songs, and then we get him in a lather, and then this guy walks on stage.

Rick DeVoe Stories And Band Chemistry

SPEAKER_03 3:00

What's with your manager? What's with that guy? What is I mean, uh Rick's what's his name? First of all, what's his name? Rick DeVoe, who founded D-E-V-I-O.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Legendary, one of my best friends. He he's fantastic. To watch Dickie and Rick is so he either works with the like young boy bands or or yeah, older 20 good summers and you're out. Yeah. He's got a lot of range, that guy, huh? He it's interesting watching his angst when he has to sit next to him.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Does he like boating at all? Does he do any boating or surfing?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

If you know if you know Rick DeVoeau, he's a water man through and through.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

He's got double fingers, uh, I didn't really can't really crack that poke. Look, look at it.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

There he is up there up on the screen. This guy is responsible for at least a half a billion albums with the bands that he's managed.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Yeah. I understand though he likes to boat and surf.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

He does.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

He is one of the finest men I know.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Introduce me to him sometime.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

No, not gonna do it. I just like to meet him. Well, that's it's the real reality show is watching those two. Oh if you can, I it's it's me and Rick. I wish I love him so much. I I know you do.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

He's so much fun. And he loves me and Rick. All right. All right, I'll tell you I'll tell you real quick. I'll tell you real quick.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

It's the Seinfeld parents, though. You want to defend yourself?

SPEAKER_03 4:26

I know I know we I know we got Vinny coming up, and and me and Rick have been hanging out now for it's getting close to a year, and and he's actually super, super nice to me, and he's super enthusiastic. No one has more energy and enthusiasm than Rick DeVoe. And so we're hanging out the other day and we're having fun. It's just kind of me and him, and we're in Vancouver, and we're eating and everything, and he's he's getting excited about the show, and he's getting his Rick on. And uh, he goes, you know, hey, what you know, when am I gonna meet your family or whatever then? And I said, There's no reason for you to meet my family. And his face went like this. He's like, six days together, super close. I mean, he goes, first, you're you're a real asshole, and that's the most that's the most hurtful thing anybody. And I go, I'm kidding. Then I spent the next two days going, I was kidding about my closest.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

I can't wait for you to meet my value. We got a guest. Family's a huge thing, Floor. Well, listen, somebody that is family, of course, is uh Vinny Fiorello. What's up, my man? How are you? Of course, one of the co-founders from Less than Jake, as well as co-founder of Food. Furious fueled by Roman. And so now we're at the Punk Rock Museum and making inroads there and really taking that off. What's up, Vin? What's up, buddy?

Vinny Fiorello On Music Today

SPEAKER_02 5:39

What's going on, man? Where are you right now, Vinny? I'm in Gainesville, Florida, in my hometown, in my home state of Florida. That's your natural habitat, right? It's 100% my natural habitat. You got some Chris Sherry artwork up behind you. I got some Chris Sherry artwork right there. It's great. Nice. He's he's a genius, right? He is 100% a fine gentleman and a genius when it comes to art.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Absolutely. And I can't not mention your frames, those are powerful.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

You know what? It's uh I decided that if I'm gonna have glasses on all the time, they have to be powerful frames. So you got a good look. It's good to see you, Vinny. Good to see you too, Dick.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Thanks for joining us here on Behind the Scene. Of course, it's uh Guns, Dickie, and Sully Sullivan. Vin, you know, what we do here is we give literally behind the scenes of everything that's going on in the music industry. We definitely want to talk about punk rock museum, but I want to uh I want to pick your brain a little bit because you know, you were able to find found um the Fuel by Ramen, one of the most iconic pop punk emo, Jason, whatever you want to call it, record labels in the history of music and especially within the scene. Talk to me about what you think the current state of the music industry is right now, whether it is with the algorithms and with the way AI and with Spotify and all that, and the fact that still, when it comes down to it, you gotta put on a damn good live show in the end. Am I right?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

There's no doubt that live shows super important regardless. But if you want sort of the the go back to what it really is right now, it's all about personal brand. Everyone that I talk to, it's like, well, you know, I'm in a band, but I do this and I do the other thing. And it's more so shining the spotlight on themselves. And when I was coming up, it wasn't necessarily about that. It was about the group, you know, it was about, hey, I'm in this band, and the band should do X and Y and Z. But uh, a lot of the people that I come in contact with now wants to talk about their personal brand. And I don't know if that's uh a good thing or a bad thing from my headspace always about uh music. It's with multiple people, not just one person. That's that's uh the basics. But algorithms are always weird, uh, pay-to-play is always weird, and that's a lot of what goes on now.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Is it more difficult these days to be a successful artist and musician, do you think, compared to when you were starting or even being able to see those few by Ramen bands, whether it's your paying the discos and your Fallout Boys and your Cobra Starships and Punchlines and all them? Talk to us just about how much it's grown and changed and where you see it going after this.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Well, there's a lot more static now to cut through, right? So you have, you know, uh exponential amount of bands, exponential amount of songs being released. So uh it's tougher in that respect, but it hasn't uh, you know, it's much easier now to, you know, release the song, put it out, put it in front of people. And if it's a good song, it's a good song regardless of uh anything else. And if that band can back up that song with being great live, then it's awesome. So uh the answer is not really cut and dry. Yeah, it's more so easier to get out there and and release music and be in front of people with social media and uh to kind of climb over that walled garden of distribution through digital distribution, but it's exponentially tougher for people to pay attention to more than uh a little blip on the radar. You really have to go.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

It's required for them to care. It's harder than ever to get people to care, it seems. Or stand out. Or stand out. And it's funny, we were actually, you know, we were talking about this on the car ride over about, you know, it if you're releasing a song and Sully, you can explain this a little bit better. Like, do you go niche and then hope to build beyond that, or like trying to go broad?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

What like well, I mean, for us, I think Dickie and Rick and Feldi and even Rome, if it's a good song, it's a good song. And I know that you know, we don't put on uh we don't play 10 songs, we put on a show. And I guys will hear me in the green room. I want more show. When you watch us, it's a show. You're entertained whether you've heard of us or not. I promise you, and you mentioned this over the weekend, that look at you're gonna walk in, you're gonna walk out entertained, whether you're a fan or not. I think that's important. I think the real interesting part of this is what is the vortex in terms of uh there's a lot of songs that you know are great, they'll never be heard. They'll never be heard because there's not a a vortex figure to put them out there. So the question is, is it radio? Is it buying onto a sync license somewhere where you've got 30 seconds on a on a shampoo commercial? At some point, you gotta try to stand out or get lucky with an algorithm. But I think at the end of the day, you gotta grind. You gotta go play and you gotta prove yourself, and then suddenly, you know, something's gonna hit. I think there's there's a lot of luck to it, but but I I still think there's gotta be a catalyst somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

What do you think, Vin?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

What is it?

SPEAKER_02 10:48

We need to know here. Uh well, you know, the the the idea that you know there's something that could uh sort of you put this jet pack on of whatever it is and get you uh, you know, five paces uh quicker than everybody else, that doesn't exist. It used to exist a little bit, you know, sync licensing made sense at one point in time. Look what it did for the transplants, right? It had the the the shampoo commercial uh to it.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Rick DeVaux did that. Believe it or not. Where did you go, Vin? Rick, did you cut him off?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Did you pull the did you pull the plug, Rick? There he is. All right, Vin, we're coming back to you.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Uh sorry, Vin. That was Rick DeVaux that did that uh transplants deal. The genius behind that, coincidentally, by the way. But those days, as you were saying eloquently, before I rudely interrupted you, was um that they were they were different back then. Like things that were a big deal, and and I I won't put words into your mouth, but you know, I remember when the Bostones played with less than Jake at at Janice's Landing in St. Peter's, that was that was as big as you got. That was as, you know, as we got us joining forces, you know, the ska punk bands, and it was an event. What about making it?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

What about making it on the radio back then? I mean, was was that a big event for you?

SPEAKER_03 12:15

It was, but it was that was kind of you were sort of removed from that. That's what the record label did. What we were out in the trenches, and we were, like I said, going to Janus' Landing in St. Petersburg, and we're gonna there we're gonna meet up with Less than Jake, and the Bostones are gonna play with the other, you know, East Coast punk ska hardcore punk band of the time. Am I right?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Ben, what do you think, Ben?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

You know what? I I just want to go back to it. It's that when uh Less than Jake first played with the Bostones, that was the biggest show that we've ever done at that moment, right? And to put us in front of their crowd, sold-out crowd, 2,000 people in Janice Landing, that was the jet pack back in 1993 or four, right? Playing with a big band, that was the jetpack, or getting on the radio, that was the jet pack. Getting on TV was the jet uh MTV was the jet pack.

The Lost Jetpack And How To Break Through

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Well, you're saying that that was the jetpack for you, but it was also there were many different jetpacks. Like we knew that going there and playing Florida with less than Jake was going to be something for us as well. So, so so it's different jet packs, but but there were jet packs, and I don't, you know, so you know, welcome to old man Barrett, but I don't know what the jetpacks are anymore or where to be where they're to be found. I I'll tell you this, I I certainly appreciate every time you invite me to to um go to the punk rock museum and give tours because it it's a bit of a jetpack. People know that I'm A, still alive, and B, still have a huge passion for punk rock and music.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Well, I I I appreciate you always going to punk rock museum, right? I mean, uh to on the punk rock museum side of it, it's it's a platform for people like yourself to come in and and tell their story about their place in punk rock music, right? And I don't necessarily think it's the jetpack to be there, but it's the jetpack, the marketing prior, the content being filmed while you're there, and the post of the you or any other artist being there to go onto our socials. And and that makes sense, you know, but I find that there's no one jetpack right now, it's a constant barrage that's that's being shot out, you know. And I've explained this to be, you know, before I think that prior there was these sniper shots in a previous life, right? It's MTV. You have that one shot, it's this jet pack, it takes you up. Now it's a machine gun, you have to keep on shooting it to get it to the same place that one thing got you to before. So really well put you, you need 10 things to make up for one that was an improvement.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

The number one thing that got us to skip two, three steps was touring with Goldfinger. And the second thing was bringing him on stage with us. Because you're right, we're in 2,000 capacity places a couple times a month. Every time, got packed houses serving us up to people that happen to be there, happen to see us, and then suddenly we created you know one audience member at a time. But I think doing that, guess what? We're with Aquabats next. We're getting offers for other bands next. And I think that's honestly the same as it always was.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Yeah, but Aquabats is kind of a step backwards, let's be honest, right, Ben? Uh Aquabats great. The best, right? How much do you love Christian?

SPEAKER_02 15:47

You know what? You you you have to uh uh with the Aquabats or any third, you know, sort of third wave ska, if you're a Jescent parallel band and going with an Aquabat, a less than Jake, a real big fish there around, Boston's, uh Goldfinger. I mean, that that is a jetpack for for a band that's absolutely that world.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

And there's some of the the nicest um people, like like how how nice are the guys from less than Jake? You know what? All super nice dudes. Still your brothers, right? Absolutely. To this day. Same thing about the I mean, if the biggest asshole on the scene is Dickie, it's it's pretty good, right? Yeah. It's like, you know. I mean, there's people, there's some people, I mean, not Rick DeVoe, but there's some people that think I'm a nice guy.

Labels Social Media And Staying Authentic

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Oh my god, Rick is gonna kill him after this. I want to just touch base on this, uh, going back to what you previously said. You're talking about, you know, different jetpacks and everything, and like how it has to, you know, Mike, like, I don't know, I don't know if labels and heads of labels are as committed now. If you're a band and say something doesn't hit, do you think labels are willing to work with that artist as much as they would have in the past? Or are they willing to adapt as much now to do what's necessary? Or is it kind of just like, hey, you might have your one chance, and then if that doesn't rip on TikTok, whatever the marketing plan might be, you are screwed now from just a label. I I don't know if labels have the answer, but are they willing to work for it and adapt in this digital-minded age, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Depends how much they paid you to be on a label, I guess. You know, the the recoup is always a a question if there's uh if there was an appetite uh to to sign to a label, whether it's an artist or whether it's a label. Uh I I think the I think that uh unless you're performing, uh that time is short-lived, right? And uh anyone that's in a band, any artist that I know, I always say you just have to go out and work, you have to continually work, you have to create the create content, and you also have to be a great songwriter, you have to be a great performer, you have to do all of those things. There's no magic wand from a major label or any label for that matter to make you better at any one of those things. The artist has to take that upon themselves to get better, be better, write better songs, do better shows, have better tours. Once you get to a certain level, of course a label could come in for distribution, for press, for a lot of other things in the marketing realm of that. But uh, a major label or a big label can't can't make you a better songwriter or a better performer. Um you have to do that on your own. And uh on top of all of that, uh you know, uh, I think I forget who said it earlier in this uh sort of show, but uh a good song is still a good song, no matter what genre it is. Uh uh if you could write a good song, if you could craft a good song, if you could take that good song and go and play it live and be great at playing that song, uh half the battle's already won. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

I think I said that. I don't know if I said it, I just want to take credit. I'll say Dickie said all these smart things on Mr. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the smart stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Smart move, Vin. Vin, if you're an upcoming band right now, how important is you know, social media can be a minefield, it can be a cesspool. Uh, you know, fans will turn on you. I don't care if you're generally rolled to somebody else, they'll turn on Olivia Rodrigo, they'll turn on you in a second. What would your advice be as far as uh you know um branding goes and how I mean I've seen this with a lot of my friends? It's like, you know, it's that they will be very interactive with fans and respond to tweets and respond to posts, but the minute they might say something or be photographed with somebody that some you know the fans might not like.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Sitting right here, guns.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

They that the fans might not like. Fans will turn on you in a second, or maybe they don't like the new sound that you do. So, how do what advice do you have on that aspect? It's like you need to use social media, but you're you're you're effed. You are effed in the end.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

You know what? You you uh have to be your authentic self, right? Because the minute that you're not being authentic, people could sort of like uh pick up on it, smell it, whatever it is. But if you're being you, being authentic as much as possible as an artist, uh anyone that disagrees, how can they disagree with you speaking your own truth, right? And and being thank you, thank you, Bill.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Thank you for saying that. You're talking about me, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I I I you know what it's funny because are you talking about me or fat Mike? I'll go with you because we we're we're here together. But you have to be your authentic self, you have to be true to who you are the minute that you're not, then uh people smell it.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Yeah, no one wants who no one wants somebody who's not being themselves, or as Vin just said, speaking their truth and telling it like it is. Um, how much do you miss playing live shows, or do you not miss it at all? Or what do you miss about it and what don't you miss about it?

SPEAKER_02 21:21

I I miss the one hour and 25 minutes that I've been.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

And all the rest of it is horrible. Yes. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

And uh I missed the energy of uh crowd, of them singing the songs that we wrote, you know, in a small, dirty space together as a band. And then you take it to the people and having them sing it back, and that energy kind of transference between the band and the crowd. I miss that. And I I miss the live scenario uh of being there with my brothers and and and playing the songs that we wrote together. I don't miss anything else about being onto it.

Punk Rock Museum Future Plans And Favorites

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Um absolutely true. It's kind of a whole day waiting around for that hour and a half or that and um I don't know if I ever told you this, but you guys delivered. You're a tremendous live band. So so from the early days, and I, you know, I never had time to really tell you. And I and I love you guys to death, but uh Less than Jake is a great band filled with great people, um, past, present, and and future. And um, I some of my closest friends are in that band for sure. And Vin, you got a pen? You are you holding a pen? Could you jot down, jot me into the punk rock museum? I've got some time coming up.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, and talk to us about the punk rock museum because I was able to see it last year. Uh, it's in Vegas, it's awesome. So, real quick, talk to us about what you got coming up besides Dickie Barrett making a special appearance.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Um Dickey Barrett's coming back to be a tour guy, but uh we did we did uh our uh recently celebrated our third anniversary uh and had a show with Spike and the Gibby Gimme's. We had XCOM out playing, we had Kate Clover playing as well. We had River Rats from LA playing. Scavalinas. What's that? The Scavalinas came out from Arizona. They did. They played the the after show uh in the bar, and it was a great time. Did you fly out for it then?

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Sorry to interrupt. Did you fly out for it? I did. You did, I did, of course. I think it was out with you, Sully.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

You know, uh coming up, we have uh crossover corner uh that's opening up this weekend. Uh we have Allison Braun's photo uh exhibit also opening up this weekend. We have Scott Ian uh as a tour guide. We have Jay Weinberg as a tour guide this weekend. Uh beyond that, we have something that we're gonna announce in about three days that is uh will be massive for the summer.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Well, how about this? This isn't gonna air within three days, so why don't you tell us right now and then uh and then we can talk about it? Or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

We will have a a Ramones retrospective of their entire career kicking for our second floor at the museum.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Cool. That's awesome. Who do you got who do you got involved in that? Who's doing that? Is Linda? Yep, yeah, CJ.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

CJ, probably right. Yeah. CJ will be there as well. Yeah, love that. That's awesome. And what can people expect at the punk rock museum when they visit it?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

You know what? Uh everything we have uh tattoo shop on site, we have uh, you know, like I had mentioned, uh tour guides that come through that, you know, whether you're in a band or whether an artist or whether you're a director or whether you're a producer, uh, you know, you show up and they walk you through the museum, talk about their place in punk rock history and how they're related to it. Uh, tattoo shop upstairs. We have a jam room where you could pick up uh instruments from your favorite punk rockers and and play them. You know, there's no uh sort of barrier between the person coming to the punk rock museum and some of the artifacts. Not all of them, but some of them.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

And it's everything from CBGB up through warp tour and everything that people can get, you know, some 41 guitar and stuff. So it does really showcase this, this, this, it's it it pays respect to the music that's been able to, you know, really define not just a generation, how about generations of music fans out there?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Well, it it's five decades of punk rock right now, right? And the story isn't uh done yet. So it's not a museum that sort of just goes, hey, we're capping here at this at this time. It's a living museum. We have artifacts from Scal and the Linda Lindas, fairly new bands, but important bands, right? So I think that the beautiful thing about the punk rock museum is that the story of punk rock has a great foundation, but it's still be, you know, it's still being written daily. You know, we had XCOM come out, uh, and their new band, fairly new band, and they're making waves and they're fucking awesome, right? And uh for them to be able to come out and celebrate our third anniversary, uh, that's that's a band I think uh you know is gonna tell the story of future punk rockers. So it's great to be able to recognize the past and then uh push forward into the future too.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

What is one ska band that should have been bigger, do you think, than they that they weren't? What's one of the more underrated ska bands out there that you really think had the potential to be huge?

SPEAKER_02 26:45

The impossible The Impossibles.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

The Impossibles.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah how about the Pie Tasters? Pie Tasters, you know, they had their time on MPV, they should have been bigger than than uh they were. Uh I love Steve, I love uh the band. I released one of the records too, so I I I I love the band. Impossible should have been bigger. There, there's no doubt uh for me uh in my mind. But if you're talking about a newer band that that that should be bigger, I'm gonna go with Bad Operation.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Okay. What makes them stand out? Uh great songs, great live.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

They go for it, that band, right? I I I think so. Uh as far as new stock is concerned, uh, I love them. And I think that uh they deserve all of the recognition and flowers that they could get.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

There's also an artist named Sullivan that you should check out who's sitting to my right. Um check him out. Uh, what was your one of your favorite fuel by ramen? We'll end on this. What was one of your favorite fuel by ramen um stories? Brendan Uri, Fallout Boy, Chaos. Give us something fun, man. Come on, man. Give us something that will go viral, bro.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Oh my god. You know what? I I think at a previous uh show uh we spoke about this, but uh I remember when uh Field by Ramen, I I came home from tour and I would be working on Field by Ramen. And my wife, my ex-wife uh now, but my wife at the time was a school teacher. So I'd be you know, sort of making dinner. She would come home, I would watch the the BET countdown. And uh during the BET countdown, they were having a a rap contest, and I followed it. I was like, oh, that's good, that's not so good, that's not so good. And it came down to two people, and one just dude was super tall and lanky and just big hair. And I was like, This this is this is the guy, you know, just this just dripping with this sort of like just X factor of just awesome. And he wound up not winning. And I was like, Oh, wrong, wrong guy, well, you know, the wrong guy won. You know, this other guy was amazing, and then uh flash forward to a little time, and an EPK came and I was like, oh my god, like this guy right here is the same guy that was on uh the the BET countdown. And I had told my partner at the time uh at the time, I was like, We have to we have to call the this is the band. And uh that was that was Jim Class Heroes. I knew it wow when I when I saw Travis on the screen, I was like, he is is is everything. Like this is just uh the magnetism on it. And then when I met him in person, I went, Oh, this is this is a given. Uh any if he decided to be a car carpenter, he would be the best carpenter. If he decided to be an actor, he'd be the best actor. You just meet some of those people and you go, Oh, anything that uh that you touch, there's a