MIS(TER)GENDERED S1 E5 FINN AUSTIN

 |Join host Sar White in conversation with Finn Austin, an ER doctor for 25 years and an ultra‑trail runner, who reflects on how embracing the in-between has led them to finding themselves 

Thanks for listening! Please like and follow! You can watch on YouTube ! Follow us on social @mistergenderedpod Instagram FaceBook and TikTok

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I gratefully acknowledged this series was recorded on the unceded traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Slewatooth nations. Indigenous peoples have maintained stewardship and jurisdiction over these lands since time immemorial.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

And some will say, What is Finn short for? And I'll then I'm which is code word for what is that?

SPEAKER_02 0:28

And I get a lot of questions like, is it are you Irish? People will just say, are you Irish? And I was like, is Irish code for something.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Welcome to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. Today we meet Finn Austin, an emergency room doctor for 25 years, an avid outdoors person, and an ultra trail runner, which means really, really long runs. Let's join the conversation. So welcome, Finn. Thanks. I'm so glad to be here. Yeah, I'm so glad to have you. So how we gonna start out is by getting a quick snapshot of how you identify who you are today, and then we'll, you know, dig into how you got here. So anything, age pronouns, gender, chocolate, favorite ice cream, you know, how do you fully identify?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Uh yeah, okay. Well, um, my pronouns are they them. Um, my name is Finn, and I'm a partner to Sue, I'm a kid to two parents, I'm a sibling to two other folks, and I'm uh I don't know. There's no word for it. There's no gender neutral word for your relationship to your niece and nephews, but I'm that person. I walk through this world as a person who feels it's not like I don't have a gender. I'm just somewhere floating in the messy middle and feel pretty happy there.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, I think I've always found that um interesting and and kind of courageous in a way of you to just say I am all these things, but I'm not gonna not gonna hang on to a term, especially the a lot that are thrown around. Is that is that true that you're kind of you just there's Bush, there's non-binary, there's you know, mask, all the things, but none of those resonate for you, really?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

None of those resonate for me. I I'm quite a visual person. Right. I've always been a visual person. I I have a very active mind's eye. And even when I was younger, when I would try to picture what would I would be doing later in my life, whether it was thinking about my teenage years or thinking about my adult years, like what would I be doing? Where would I be living? What kind of work would I be doing? I never pictured myself as a particular gender. I never thought about it. Really? It was not up here on my radar at all.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

So it was more like I could be an athlete or a doctor or a nurse or an engineer or uh whatever, a plumber, but I there was no gender. That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Pictured myself in clothing that would be related to a particular gender or visualize like, well, what would I look like when I'm in my 20s? What would I look like in when I was in my 40s? I I could not picture it.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

So did you picture the experience or the per or the thing?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

I would imagine what you looked like? I would imagine what I would be seeing, like as if I was looking through my own eyes. So you weren't looking at yourself, but I was never looking at myself. And I I I really I distinctly remember this from when I was so young. Um, when I was uh when I was in elementary school, I had a good friend and I would go over to her house all the time, and we'd always play in the basement. And we played all kinds of things: teacher, doctor. We played Olympic athlete quite a bit in her basement. And she was always like, I'm gonna be a female gymnast. And I was like, oh, I think I'll be a bodybuilder. Like I was probably eight or nine, but these I didn't matter to me that that probably wasn't something that was available to me if I had been an adult in the 70s. Right. And then I said, no, I'm gonna be a I'm gonna be a karate expert. And so she would be spinning around doing the sort of the ballet things, and I would be stacking up these blocks and then pretending to karate chop them in half.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

But it was because I was like, well, that's that's just who I feel like I would be. I would be doing these sports that would be like a little like more typically associated with like um a male or a masculine individual, but it didn't matter to me that that wasn't stereotypically available to me. I never thought about it. It didn't, it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

So how how did that show up, even as that eight-year-old in your family? Like, was that just in the basement at your friend's house, or were you that person in your family? Was that okay or accepted, or how did that work?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I often think that if it wasn't for my my family, and it wasn't for people who I didn't know who made negative comments, it wouldn't have mattered to me. Because I just I was that kid, I was that teenager, I was that young adult, and I was fine with it. Like it it it felt comfortable, it felt good to me. It was only the negative information that I received from people around me that made me think, oh, it's it's not okay to be that way. Like I did absorb that message eventually that that's not okay for me to be that way. I think it was quite distressing for for my parents for me to show up in the way that I did. And it was there was definitely struggles. I I wanted to wear more more typically masculine clothing from a very young age. So a lot of my struggles with my mom was around clothing, right? Like 100%. And at a certain point, I made the decision that I wasn't gonna wear more stereotypic feminine clothing anymore. It was around the early 90s. How old were you then? Uh I was in my early 20s. Okay. And my my brother's wedding, I I I said I would wear a dress, and then after that, it was the last time. So I didn't it's like I remember the last time I wore a dress. Because it was like after that point, I'm kind of done. And my cousin got married a couple years later, and I had told myself I'm not wearing that clothing anymore. So I wore just men's dress pants and a button-down shirt and um and a vest. And my dad, who was always fine with it, when I came down from getting dressed, he said, Well, I have some extra ties. Like, would you like a tie with that? And my mom was like, She would definitely not like a tie with that. And it was like understood that that was the end of the conversation. Um so yeah, it was there was some pretty tough times around that. I feel really happy about how I've shown up for the past couple of decades. It really just feels like myself.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Right. And what about coming out? Where did that fit into the whole picture and kind of how you came out first? And I know that's changed for you over the years. Yeah, I came out when I was 20.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Um, and I fell in love with the queer community.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I yeah, I fell in love with the queer community. I love the people who I surrounded by. I was definitely surrounded by by folks of all gender expression, like more feminine women, middle of the road, more masculine upcenter folks, and I and it was a really important and formative time for me. And a lot of the folks that I was hanging out with and and identified as you know close community were were were butch-lesbian. And so while I didn't necessarily really use that word a lot for myself, it did feel like it was most closely aligned. Right. And I so when I when things started to shift for me in the past number of years, and I was thinking about like how else might I change my express gender expression or pronouns or name, it was a little bit, there was some difficulty a little bit of deciding around pronoun because of my my real connection with the community when I came out because it was I was like, this is these are my these are my people. Women, there's Butch lesbians, masculine up center folks, and and it was so it did really it did form part of like how am I gonna decide what pronoun am I gonna use is so much of my of those formative experiences.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Right, right. So thinking a bit about um your years working and you know, as a younger person, new doctor, and how did the work situations you were in and and how did showing up as yourself, or did you ever have to compromise or where did you ever wear things differently?

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Like I did have to wear things differently. When I was in medical school, I wore things that I didn't necessarily want to wear for a variety of reasons. One is because I I was I needed to present as a as a person who'd be taken seriously. Right. So that was a a bit of a shift from from how I would have dressed before that. And also I understood that uh it would be really complicated if people didn't understand my gender. And so while I didn't go so far as to wear dresses or skirts again, because I had told myself I wasn't gonna do that again, I would wear some clothing that people would say, oh, that's a woman. It's a girl. And it was very, very intentional. So I had some shirts that had little flowers on it. Now things have changed. A lot of masculine of center folks, male-identified folks wear shirts with flowers, but not in the 90s. Right. Or the late 80s. They did not.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

So that was your little signal.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

So that was my signal. I had shirts with flowers on them. I was like, see? I'm a girl. And it didn't feel comfortable, it didn't feel good, but I in some degree kind of knew I had to do it. And I did it through medical school and residency, and then after that I gave it up. And at work, it's not a big deal because for the past 25 years I've worn scrubs. Everyone wears exactly the same thing. Right. I love my job. Right. I love my job for a lot of reasons, but that also nobody cares what you wear. You all wear the same thing. And we also all wear the same thing, even it doesn't matter what role you have. So it flattens that whole hierarchy as well. Right. Everybody wears the same clothing. Right. And it's interesting in my first 10 years of of practice of of work, I had more of my patients be unclear about my gender. And while on some level that was fine with me because I'm kind of unclear myself, and it does, it wouldn't matter. The only time it matters is then when there's like when there's people are unhappy about that. Um so that was more in that first sort of 10 years, and for some reason, even though now I'm like, oh, I'm somewhere in the middle and I use they, them pronouns, it people have less difficulty understanding sort of who I am. And so I I don't really understand that shift, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So I guess sort of like 10 years ago, it was there was less of the they, them, and the pronouns, and people were like, Are you a man or a woman? And what is this?

SPEAKER_01 13:19

And if you're a woman, I don't want a woman doctor, kind of thing, or or just would not be sure, like, am I he him? Is it she her? And I would get called like he a fair amount. And then uh and then somebody would correct them, and then there would be that awkward moment where they were everyone was a bit sort of awkward about that. Right, right. And and then that I don't know if it's just that I'm an older, an older adult now, and right it's more obvious to people. Right. I don't know. Even though now I feel like I'm less clear.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

It's sort of ironic. Everyone else is clear, but I'm less clear.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Oh my god, that's so great. It's yeah, so interesting. But I guess like if you have, you know, do you have your name tag with like your pronouns on it and stuff? Or so or no.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

About five years ago at the hospital, we were offered that our name tags could have our pronouns on it. Right. And it was around similar time when I when I changed my name. And so I got a new name tag. And so um someone said to me, Oh, it's cool, you could put your pronouns on it. And I was like, I don't think so. So lots of people have the pronouns on. It's all the cis people have their pronouns.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

They do like pronouns are for cisgendered people. They are. And I love it, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

I love that because it it does indicate that they have at least an awareness. Sure. And they want the patients and the and the and the clients to know, hey, I'm I'm cool. Like if you want to tell me what your pronouns are, I I get it, right? Yeah. And so someone said to me, Why don't you have they, them on your name tag? I said, Because I only have 10 minutes to create a rapport with this person in front of me. And if for the first three minutes of it, they're looking at my name tag, trying to figure what they them means, I don't really want that 10-minute encounter, a third of it to be taken up by their brain, going, huh, they, them, what is that? Oh, I know that, or oh, is this who's this, what's going on? And I just don't want it to be part of my ex my encounter with this person who's in front of me. I really just don't have that much time to to have a relationship with them. And the relationship is quite critical for my work. Like I need them to have confidence in me and trust me that in this short period of time I'm going to care for them. I'm going to try to understand their experience, I'm gonna provide them with some relief or treatment or whatever. And I just I feel like it's just gonna get in the way. Right. And I was trying to explain this to somebody at work who's a cisgendered man, and he was like, Do you think you're overthinking it? And I was like, No. I don't.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

But what okay, just what about your appearance, which is kind of they them anyway? Without the without your name tag saying they them. Right. Do you think that as you're saying now is just people have a bit more awareness or understanding? Or do you ever feel like in that first 10 minutes, know they them, but they're like, Finn, what who are you? Does do you think that happens? Or you quite convinced that taking away the pronouns helps with that?

SPEAKER_01 16:54

I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that. I suspect that the younger cohort of people that I care for probably are like, oh, Finn looks like a they, them. Right. And they just kind of move on, right? They don't even care, anyways. What does it matter to them? Um the older adults will look at the name tag, will look at me, and then they have not a lot of clue what's happening. Right. And some will say, What is Finn short for? And else, and then I'm which is code word for what is that?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Help us here short for something. And most of the time I say no, but sometimes I just make stuff up. Is short for Tiffany.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Tiffany. Oh my god, that actually works.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

And I get a lot of questions like, is it are you Irish? People will just say, Are you Irish? And I was like, Is Irish code for something? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

So true. Yeah. And so then I just say yes. Um, so yeah, I don't, it doesn't matter to me in a way that it it mattered to me 20 years ago. Like it, I just at some point I realized I didn't have to ask anybody's permission to be who I was. I didn't have to ask anybody's permission to use a different name. I didn't have to get anybody's approval to just be living my life. And and so I'm sure that people have some kind of experience of me at work, and I I don't I don't care. Like in the sense of it doesn't matter to me anymore. Right. And just to to let go of that is just been yeah, it's just been a real relief.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

It's an extra burden to carry every day, you know, because I don't know what your experience is, but I do think about where I'm going, who I'm gonna see, and how they're gonna respond to me. And you know, it's hard to let go of it entirely because it's not always positive. It's not always like, oh, hey, you gorgeous they them. You're handsome. Love your outfit, love your haircut. Yeah, yeah. Love that you're you're challenging the patriarchy right now. Like that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Yeah, that's such my experience.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And I recognize that I'm really I'm in a very privileged situation. Right. I I'm and I'm like I'm I'm really aware of that. I live in a city in North America where it's very accepting. I can walk in this manner, and for the most part, I don't experience a lot of a lot of negativity from it. Um, so I I recognize that that is a really small slice of the world and and I and I'm very fortunate.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. And we being white, don't have that other layer of discrimination.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

And I also don't have to worry that I'm, you know, am I gonna get fired from a job or am I gonna find a job where people are gonna hire me because of how I present? I I don't have those extra concerns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

So if you would, I'd love to um talk about changes that have happened for you in the last few years where pronouns and name and and changes to the body. And I wanted to start a bit with um going back to the the film. So the film being not quite that, which uh is a documentary about for those who don't know, is a documentary that Finn was in and I was the subject of, and it's a film about a bunch of things, including how we see ourselves and how we're seen, and and it's really what's inspired all of these conversations um about representation. So you were not Finn then, and if you would, to tell us about what what led you. Has this just been gone ongoing? When did it start, or was it always there? And yeah, just tell us the story, if you would, about your journey with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

I love the the the dinner party that that you hosted, and I love the conversation. So I just want to start by saying I just thought it was very brave to to spark that conversation and say, here's here's a question. If you had to have an aspectomy because of you know reasons around health concerns, would you have reconstruction? And the conversation like what people said. Was all across the spectrum of people's thoughts around that. And one of the like, there were so many things that were surprising to me about the conversation. So much about it that I loved. And I I realized as I heard myself speaking, it was probably the first time I had articulated to someone out loud that the reason why I would keep my my the chest that I was born with would be for other people so they would know what I was. Right. And that was the only reason. And so it made me think like I'm still living someone else's idea of who I should be. I want to live a life that I'm not asking permission from people anymore to show up how I'm gonna look. I'm gonna dress. And I I thought I had had a little bit of envy when I would hear about people saying, like, oh, I'm gonna have top surgery. There was like a little flicker of envy, like, oh, why do they get to And I was like, Well, finish that sentence. Why did they get to and I don't I could do that? There's no there's nothing that's holding me back. And some of that holding that con that idea of like something's holding me back was all this stuff like from growing up. Right. If you wear that people will think you're a boy. If you play that way with your friends outside, people will think you're a boy. And that is not okay. And this like so hard to like get get rid of.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

So I'm I I made the decision, and I do like to say that part of my decision was like just being part of the conversations with you. And and so when I started down that road to to um to have gender-affirming surgery, I it it just it felt great. It felt right. It never it's yeah, it's been fantastic. I I I love like I love like how I was saying I'm was like a visual person and I could sort of picture myself out in the world, but I didn't picture what I whether I would look like a man or a woman. Right. It's not in it's not entirely, entirely true. I never pictured myself with breast. I always would picture myself with like a flat chest. And for for years, when I would see a picture of myself, it I never looked any different, uh older as the years go by, but I never looked any different. Every time it would be a bit of a surprise to me. That I would see like, oh right, I look like that. I have that chest. Because in my mind's eye, I don't have, I never had that chest. I didn't have it. Right. And so I'd see the photo, I'll be like, oh, right. Or I'd see myself in the mirror and I'd be like, oh right, that's how I look, because it's not how I think I look. Right. It's not how I feel, right? But now for the past three years, three years, yeah. I'm like, I see myself, I'm like, that's me. Right. That is me. Right. That's how I always thought I looked. But now I actually do look that way. It's all kind of come together. I'm like, yeah, right, that's how I always thought I looked. But now I actually do look that way.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah. You know, I remember when I think about the other part in the film, the Butch photo shoot, and uh how I found that really empowering. But also I remember like, you know, the part when Lara's having hot flashes, and I was like, what? There there was this tough because after I had my surgery and I felt so much more comfortable in my body, I would kind of look at people like you and Lara and others who were kind of you know more masculine presenting and be like, what? Like, why do you have breasts and why did you have menopause? Right? This is not fitting for me. Right. So yeah. It's yeah. So I mean, that's seems to be that experience for you of just feeling at home, you know. Yeah. Um what about um the name? So you had a a a female identifying name before. And so I guess that would sort of go with uh wanting to be you don't have that, or before I had my surgery, I went out for coffee with a friend.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I told a friend, I said, Hey, I have some news to share with you. Um, I've decided that I'm gonna have gender affirming surgery. And she was so happy for me. She's like, Oh my god, um, um, congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Um, like, tell me more. Yeah. And then she said, and what do you think? Like, are you gonna change uh take a different name or different pronouns? And uh at the time I said, No, I I think it's really just about looking like how I would feel like I was gonna look. I just I realized though, after a bit of time, that I wanted other things to to line up. And so I took the next step and I said, Oh, I actually would like to have a different name.

unknown 27:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

That feels a little bit more like it fits for how I feel.

unknown 27:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Um, gender-wise. Yeah. And same friend, she's like, that's awesome. Uh, what about the pronouns? And I was like, uh, I think I'm good. You know, I'm gonna keep like I'm gonna keep them.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Right. She's like, mm, okay. We'll wait, we'll see. Right. It's an evolution, hey?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

It is, and that's I think I don't regret the fact that I took time and I and I took things like step by step. I it's it feels fine, it feels great. Yeah. And I it it was it is hard. Like I I feel like, yeah, like the the she hers, like that's like my history. Right, those are my people. And I just felt like it wasn't uh really accurate anymore. Right. And it it wasn't as soon as I started telling people like I I'm gonna I'm gonna go by the them. And as soon as people would start referring to me that way, I it felt right. I was like, oh, okay. Right. Like it it feels feels like that feels like that really fits, it feels good.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

But you haven't actually changed your people.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I was just gonna say, like, no, same people, same friends.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Yeah, yeah, they didn't, um they didn't let me go.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah. Um, would you talk a bit about um because for me I I didn't actually realize that one could have top surgery or change a name or change of pronouns, but not necessarily transition or want to transition. What what was that like for you? Did you ever consider transitioning? Was that part of it or not part of it?

SPEAKER_01 29:39

I think that's the part that made I don't know, would I have had surgery earlier than this if I had thought about it in this way? I don't know that that's true. I think I just needed to come to it organically. But I didn't I didn't necessarily think about it that it was available to folks who just said, hey, I'm I just feel more comfortable this way, gender expression-wise, and I'm not I'm not moving in a direction, I'm not transitioning, I just this is just how I want to look because it feels congruent. I wasn't I didn't necessarily know that that was an a real option. And then it became more common. And so then it and then it all kind of collided, it fit because then it was around the time of like the you're doing the filming and we're having those conversations, and and so I think it all just kind of came together at the right time. Um the uh transitioning to to live as a as a man is isn't something that that I'm interested in. Like that doesn't feel like that would fit. Um and I feel like now I've now I'm I'm you're good. I'm good. Yeah, I'm landed. Right. I'm just happy. Yeah, I'm I think this is it.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

But I was wrong before, so I'll talk to you in a you know a few months earlier. Yeah, but yeah, you've inspired me to you know make me think about like it started to happen for me where I was like, I don't want a female identifying name. It just doesn't feel right. So in that way of not knowing, I'm just like, all right, I'll do Sarah right now, we'll just try that. But like it's on my list, new name, da da da, anyway. But uh yeah, it's it's so important to have models and have people who've you know gone before gone before us and and done these things, and um and most importantly to see how happy and good you feel. So let's uh let's do some kind of fun stuff. What's uh I okay, cat or dog person? Oh cats or dogs? Or both?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Both, although well I grew up with cats. Okay. I grew up with cats, and then somewhere along the line I became allergic. Um and then I became a dog person. So dog. You've come out as a dog person. I've come out as a dog person.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Um how about a what kind of music or song just gets you up dancing? Oof.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I did a little bit of clubbing in the 90s, I won't lie. And so there is nothing 90s dance music is a thing. Yeah, I know I've been hearing it. It's a thing of its own. Yeah. When I hear it, I'm like, oh, that's that's 90s dance music. Yeah. So there is something about that because I'm nostalgic for 90s club music. Right. Uh but I'll I'll I'll kind of dance to anything that's like peppy and uplifting and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Really serious, crunchier smooth peanut butter. Oh. Or sorry, almond butter if that's you, if if that's your thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Um the kind of organic almond butter that's somewhere in the middle, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

A little grainy-ish.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Not dry.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Judge. But a little bit grainy-ish.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

That's it. The middle.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

The messy middle. The messy middle. There you go. That makes a lot of sense why you would like that peanut butter. I mean almond butter, I'm sorry. Yeah. Not butter. Not butter. There you go. Um, would you go to like a super busy, well, they all always are busy, pride parade or go to the beach.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Beach.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Right? Fair. Um favorite season? Like is like spring and even fall.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah. I love I love transition seasons where you can. Oh, really? Interesting. We're sort of in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Kind of like, wait a minute. There's a trend here. There's a trend here. What's what kind of clothes or what do you feel most you in? Jeans and t-shirt. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

And I will tell you something.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I never wore white t-shirts before my surgery.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Ah.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Ever. Because it just didn't feel right good. And I love jeans and a white t-shirt now.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Now you're rocking the white t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Like, that's the thing. Yeah. I never would have worn the white t-shirt before. But I love jeans and a white t-shirt.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

How does it feel to in the summer take your shirt off the beach with your bathing suit or your how does that go?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah. Interesting question. I s I do have I have some anxiety around that. It kind of depends where I am.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Depends who I'm with. It's it feels really easy if I'm with my people. Sure. And I'm just like at the beach, I'm gonna go for a swim. I don't think about it twice. But I do like to swim at the beach and I would go by myself. And so I'm a I am a little bit a little bit wary. Again, it kind of depends where I am.

unknown 35:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

It depends what I'm doing. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

And to say a bit more about that, like what's your fear that someone that they would suddenly realize again that they don't know what I am.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Right. And might have a like a like yeah, negative negative reaction. Like, who do you think you are? Right. I still think that I still think trans and gender diverse, like just taking up our space in the world is still not always a given. Oh no. Like that you can just expect that you can just be yourself, take up the space that you deserve to take up, and not have people like tell you that that's not necessarily the case. And I shouldn't say I still think that, I mean, that's quite clear. Right. Like that's very clear.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Even people trying to legislate these things, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, we know from having had different chests that that that was the only ticket, but it still was not okay. Still like you are not the kind of woman or that you should be. Like you are not what we like here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

So yeah. Yeah. It's not like we passed even then. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

It it was a different kind of passing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

But it was like it's like a barely pass bar. Barely pass? Right. Like a deed was a deed.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

It was a deed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Um what about uh oh yeah, favorite food, like comfort food or pizza. Yeah, you make a mad pizza. I'm a pizza maker. Yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

I'm a pizza maker.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah. Yeah. Um do you have favorite places to go in Vancouver? Uh things to do.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

I I love to trail run. So my favorite places are on the trails on the North Shore, going for a long run.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

It's quiet, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

What is important about represent like why did you say yes to doing this?

SPEAKER_01 37:20

I think I think it's important for people to know that there's a huge diversity of how people think about themselves gender-wise. And that we have a variety of experiences of that, a variety of things that inform how we show up. And and that we're we're we're real people living real lives. And uh that I there's so there's so much now media around trans and gender diverse folks, and it all is focused on a very limited part of the question, right? Should we uh uh be allowed to pee where we want to pee? Should we be able to compete in the sport of our choosing? But this is a very small piece of like who we are as humans. And we're we're we're not a homogenous population. It's so we have like as many different thoughts about who we are and how we want to show up in the world as as we are humans. And so I think it's important that that that people understand that and what our struggles are, but what our joys are, yeah, and how we got to where we are and who we love and and who loves us. And like you said, it's not common for people to be like, wow, look at your gender diverse self. You are so handsome and just rocking it. Yeah. Like it's just not how we uh experience things. Yeah. I was like, why not? Yeah, yeah. Why not? And so if folks hear more about like here's who we are and here's what's important to us, and here's our lives, maybe it'll just make it more easy for people to see the entire human spectrum, the entire gender spectrum as acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Acceptable and to be find themselves in it on it.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks, Ben. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm that was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

So happy to talk about it with you. Thanks for listening to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. On Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, MrGenderPod, webmrgender.com, email hello at mrgender.com. That's M-I-S-T-E-R. The doc not quite that is at notquitethat.ca. Free to watch at TELUS Originals, Optic TV, and Knowledge Network.