MIS(TER)GENDERED S1 E6 GWEN LISTER

 | Join host Sar White in conversation with Gwen Lister, a substance‑use and mental‑health expert, co-founder of the Vancouver Junction Community Centre, a person in recovery, as she traces her path from a strict Mormon upbringing to choosing herself. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I gratefully acknowledged this series was recorded on the unceded traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Slewatooth nations. Indigenous peoples have maintained stewardship and jurisdiction over these lands since time immemorial. What does it say? It says uh only uh broken horses know to run. Just doesn't seem okay now. But gotta put a little Randy Carlisle everywhere, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. Today we'll meet Gwen Lister, a substance use and mental health expert, a person in recovery, a social worker, and a public health nerd. She's a co-founder and team lead at Vancouver Junction Community Center. Let's join the conversation. So why don't we start out with uh the snapshot view of who you are today, how you identify, your age, if you would, pronouns, culture, background, anything that's uh labels that show us who you are, if there are any. I describe myself as queer in general most of the time, because I think it just gets at both my like sexuality and my gender. Uh, but I'd say like, yeah, like non-binary or gender diverse, genderqueer. Um and then like she pronouns, they pronouns, I'll answer to he pronouns. So could be any of 'em. Been with my wife for like ten years, got a cute little dog, got a really great job. Um and uh I'm let's see, been in Vancouver now for about eight years, a little bit more, eight and a half. Um, moved from down south, grew up in in Colorado. Okay. And uh near Denver, Colorado, and yeah, grew up Mormon. Um both of my both sides of my family are Mormon since like the 1830s.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Um so since Mormonism started. Um, and so yeah, predominantly most of my extended family is still Mormon. And then I was the first one of my uh like immediate family as well as my um, at least that I know of, my extended family was like the kind of the first to leave. So how many siblings? I'm the oldest of five. Uh-huh. That's why I'm so short. That's what I tell everybody. Because when you're the oldest, sometimes you have like kind of the weight of the world on your shoulders. And so how old are you if you don't mind? Oh, I'm 40. You're 40. Yeah. Okay. So tell us about wow, your journey from Mormon Central to today. I always tell I always kind of say that I grew up in a glass closet. In a glass closet. So, like, what does that mean? It's kind of like I was locked in the box or in the closet and was trying to really try hard to be hetero and straight and cis and was trying kind of pretty hard, but everybody, at least who knew me really well, could really tell. We just didn't talk about it, and then I just kind of had to stay closeted. But yeah. When you say people who knew me well knew it, do you mean family? Do you mean friends? Do you mean probably were you just kind of different, tomboy? Like what was very different. See you were as different. I think uh I think yeah, like tomboy definitely was a word that was used to describe me a lot. Um just kind of like always wanted to be like going, hiking, going, camping, starting fires. I don't know, like I don't try it like that. I don't know, yeah. Um doing sports, um, helping my dad. I love fixing stuff. It's like um saying like all these stereotypical like lesbian things, which is great too. But um how was your dad with you and that? Did he encourage it or did was it okay? I mean, yeah. I mean, I think especially um well my yeah, my parents and my dad would always call me kind of like a Gwen's just kind of like a force of nature. Ah. Interesting. Because then I had such of such strong and visceral responses to trying to when they would try to fit me into, you know, like a feminine box and female box, and we would have power struggles all the time. So I think in general my parents like did a good job of kind of trying to let me be myself at home. And then when we'd get to church, I had to turn into somebody else and someone who wore a dress and curled my hair. Um, and so I think they were kind of doing their best to maybe try to help me be who I was and not and know kind of that they couldn't really fight against it because it was so strong in me. Yeah. Um and they definitely like, yeah, supported me doing sports and uh whatever other hobbies and um were you at Mormon school or so I wasn't at Mormon school. Like we went to public school. Uh-huh. So I did have like friends who were uh who were not Mormon, but definitely Mormonism, at least for me, grew up pretty like pretty orthodox Mormon. So it was like church was not just on Sundays. It was like every day. Every day, every day you were doing something, and so that really like community feeling was really like insular. Uh-huh. Um, in some ways is really awesome. Right. Cause like when you're in a community like that, it's like you ha people got your back. But if you don't fit in with the rules, then you're ostracized. So I think my parents were helping me to and themselves to kind of like uh toe the line a bit, where it's like, okay, Gwen is this way, we kind of get it, but there's not a lot of language right now. And definitely I didn't know that there was anything like gay, I didn't know that there was anything like um, you know, like gender diverse or queer or anything like that. Or trans, I had no idea that any of those things existed when I was a kid. So just kind of like kept trying to be myself. And uh it just got a little bit more confusing as I got older, because then like when you're a little kid, and I'd be allowed to do certain activities that were just for boys. And then as I got older, um, like the church and society in general just kind of like you know, puberty comes, and they just keep trying to funnel you kinda into a box, and so I was not always allowed to do certain things, and I really always wanted to, so I'd just kind of fight as much as I could. Yeah. Fight against clothes that they would put me in, fight against I mean, we were born into it, so Mormonism and like the strict rules and like hyper religion, it was like water in the beginning. You know, you're just born into it, you're indoctrinated, so it's hard to know what you're missing or know what should be different. Um, just kind of came out in my early 20s. I wrote it, I put it in a letter for people to read. Um, that was easier for me than telling everybody, and there's kind of a lot of people to tell. So And what about when you went to if you went to a public high school, then you're around kids who are not Mormon. And what was that like? Did it influence you? Did you know queer kids? Were there any so I did I like I learned about gayness. Um and definitely there were a couple of kids that were out at my high school, but not really many. So where did you learn when you said learned about gayness? Was that where do you think that was? Like I knew how I felt really early on. Um so when I was 12, I had my first real, real, real serious crush where I figured out like the difference between like liking someone and having a crush feeling, those are different feelings than like dread and anxiety. Um so I think 12 is when I kind of figured that out. Um, but I still didn't know a lot of people who were out. Um, or if I did know people who were out, I wasn't really spending a lot of time with them. Um, because that was I was attempting to yeah, like survive and s n and keep it hidden. Um I just really started kind of exploring that sexual part of things like when I was like 16. I didn't really know a lot about it until I came out and then later met other people and was able to maybe go to a couple of gay bars and talk to other, you know, queer people and really like I think, you know, college, university was probably when you were get away from home and get away, yeah, just kind of get away from home and and really started to then learn about queer culture. Um and then it was kind of like a yes, kind of like a community learning opportunity in that sense, I think. Because I just like was having to, you know, like disavow one side of my learning and then go into another side. Just the letter. So how what happened after the letter? Like what were you at college then when you wrote it or yeah, I mean, in Mormonism, you start when you turn 18, you start going to what's called a single adult ward. The goal is like to pair up and get married.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Uh so I was like in that setting and trying to survive. So you went to the ward. I went to the ward. I was still, yeah, I was very Mormon. I I s that's when I started to wear pants to church, which was very like bold. So this is just after high school? This is like just yeah, like after high school. It's a little bit of a blur too, because I'll just say like, yeah, I'm in I'm a person in recovery too. So like there was kind of like a maybe like, yeah, they're about a 10-year period. And sometimes there's like things get a little jumbled and a little some holes in it. But uh Yeah. Makes sense. But yeah, kind of came out around like age uh 22, 20, like when I was 22, and I had gone to a couple of different schools, was working, going to school, tried tried going to Provo, Utah to spend some time there, because that's just like if you wanna, you know, cure yourself of gayness, or if you want to try and um fit in, then you kind of go where to all the Mormons are, and that didn't work. But so was this on your own initiative? Like, were you just struggling with what was going on internally and trying to say, like, no, I can I'm not this, I'm gonna fix it kind of thing? Yeah, because it's yeah. So trying to like pretend it wasn't there, attempting to date um men. It's just never worked. Right. And then luckily in Provo, I did find a friend, my friend Joe, who was um like uh at one point engaged to like my best friend, and then um he was gay. So then we were like, ah, okay. And they broke off their engagement, and I was like, that's good, because I was jealous because I was in love with her. I was always falling in love with these girls at church, you know, and these women, and it was really stressful and hard. Yeah. I mean trying to figure that out and oh my gosh. It was just like felt like torture sometimes. So luckily found Joe, and then over time we kind of helped each other. Uh-huh. Uh, over time to kind of come out and figure out, yeah, I think it's, you know, time to come out. And then when you come out, that's one thing. But in Mormonism, they say, okay, well, you can be gay, but you can't act gay. Oh. So then it's just like, mm, I don't really know if that's not really gonna work for me. So I ended up, yeah, just uh ended up leaving the church probably about a year after I came out, um, and after I sent that letter. And then um I think like yeah, so basically there was just kind of like a year of that self-exploration and that process of not just coming out, but realizing like there's just no way um that I can uh yeah, just not be true to myself. So I'm just gonna have to do it. And then it was hard to choose, you know, between okay, church family, the community I grew up with, because then I knew that I would be othered. Yeah. But, you know, eventually it just I got to the point where I had to make the choice. So I mean it was the best choice ever, for sure. I'm really happy that I made it. But what a hard decision. Hard choice, yeah.

unknown 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

And did it take some time to unlearn the the negative thoughts and the this is bad, I'm bad. Oh yeah. I will go to bad places. Yep. They die. Uh yeah, I mean, I think luckily I was like grappling with that probably from you know, age at least age twelve, when I figured out kind of like, oh, this is kind of like who what I am. So at least I had been grappling with it like a long time. So then by the time that I came out and left the church, like obviously there's always leftovers, you know, in terms of like, I don't know, tr childhood and trauma and like the culture you grew up with. Yeah. But by by then I was just like just ready to be done and ready to break free. Yeah. And by the time I made that choice, it was like, nah, this is not true. Yeah. It's not true that I'm bad. It's not true that I'm yeah shouldn't be who I am. And so Yeah. I mean it makes sense, and I think you're right. I think you others are you're kind even though you're kind of working on it your whole life. Yeah. Like as hard as it is, or as much as you're i there's some kind of internal fire or force, force of nature that that seems to select those of us who manage to make it out, kind of. Yeah, you know, to propel you forward. So you are kind of processing it all the time, unconsciously or consciously. Yeah. And it just kind of takes up a lot of your brain power, a lot of your emotional power. A lot of emotional power. Yeah. It's like, yeah. So I was very I was just got lots happier after I left. I mean, it was really hard if you know, just feel like the rugs pulled out from underneath you. So 20 plus years of knowing one thing and then having to kind of start all over again was uh terrifying. Yeah. But you know, lots of people have done it. I was glad that I was able to do it because it just I would have probably just withered and died if I would have stayed. So yeah, it was good. Good for you. Made it.

unknown 16:14

Yeah, made it.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Made it out. Made it out. Hopefully made it easier for my siblings to make it out too and yeah, consider maybe some other people as well. Yeah, a huge role modeling. Yeah. And so you what how did you end up coming to Canada and uh well done? Yeah. Right now? Yeah. Must be happy about that. Very happy. Yeah. Good timing. Um, so that's nice how things worked out. Don't want to go back for now. Uh met my partner Sarah in Denver. We met at a women's uh 12-step meeting, but then eventually we had both been working in kind of like uh recovery, substance use, mental health, um, impatient for a while. Um uh and we worked in like detoxing with adolescents, and she'd worked inpatient psychiatry, and yeah. So we just needed a break. So Vancouver seemed like a good spot to come. We've never neither of us had ever been before, but says, okay, I mean, supposed to have like progressive drug policy there, there's probably some good work for us, and then and then was able to get, you know, healthcare take care of my chest. So Yeah, tell us about that if you would, what you yeah, kind of where you were at and what you what led you to that decision and as much as you want to tell us. Yeah. I mean, I I don't think that I had ever felt like I never felt right having uh having boobs, having breasts. Um it was just kind of like something that I um couldn't stop once puberty came. Uh so it never really felt natural to me. I felt a lot of gender dysphoria, um c uh specifically like around my chest uh all all the time growing up. But I mean, you know, it's like a forty to fifty thousand dollar surgery where I come from. So it never were really seemed like it would be an option to get any sort sort of surgery, especially when I was younger. A lot of us weren't really necessarily thinking that that would be an option. So moving here definitely wasn't the first thing on my mind. Mostly just survival was the first thing on my mind in immigrating and getting work. But then I was working in social work here and um was working with uh one of the trans specialty care programs um and helping a lot of people uh do their surgery assessments and uh you know, getting gender-affirming care and um and then a few years later I was just like, okay, I feel like we're kind of like stable enough now in my career. I've got some sick time that I can take, and so I think it's just time for me to do it now. Um and never look back. I mean, happiness or elation or whatever when I when when it was finally done and just being able to have shirts fit the way that I um always hoped that they would. Because you know, like finding clothes as a gender diverse person is not easy. Like you have to kind of go with what's best, or you know, maybe you can afford uh, you know, a couple of um like I don't know, a couple of expensive binders or like expensive Did you wear binders? I wore binders, yeah. I started binding when I was in like uh seventh grade. And we didn't have binders back then, so I would use duct tape. And uh and I would use um uh what's that like uh like gauze that you put around or what's that an ace bandage.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, so I'd use ace bandage that I started binding really young. And I didn't even know other people did that. It just made sense to me. Right. Yeah. It was just because you didn't want them, didn't like how it was. Yeah, like didn't recog you know, wouldn't recognize myself in the mirror. Mmm, just was annoying. Sure. I wish the sports bras were tighter, yeah, you know, and like they're it's expensive to get really good sports bras, it's expensive to get binders, so I just used a nice bandage and I'll did the old school way. Yeah. So yeah. And then when I got older, definitely was able to save up and get a couple of good binders. And you just kind of figure out bit by bit the types of clothes that maybe works a little bit better for your body or whatever. But it's never quite fully there. Or some days I'd be feeling like I could wear it. Other days I'm like, fuck no, I can't. It's just too hard. Yeah. So yeah, so then getting um top surgery was fabulous. Like obviously it's painful, very painful. Um and uh definitely, you know, went in with the knowledge that I wasn't gonna be able to have any uh, you know, like painkillers besides like Advil and Tylenol when I left because uh my substance use addiction problems in the past. Um but luckily, you know, have good support had built good community around me and chosen family around me and things and uh was able to recover enough and then just feels fun to be able to go and to your closet and just wear wear whatever you want and not having to like make sure it's not. So tight that you can't breathe or whatever. So anyway. Do you remember how how long ago was that? Uh two years ago. Oh, two years. This month, actually. Oh, okay. Yeah. Recent. Yeah. Yep. So 2023, November 2023. It's almost your anniversary. Yeah. And do you remember the that feeling or the feeling you had, you know, in your body and your mind when you kind of woke up or knew like a was it right away when you woke up from surgery, or was it a little bit later, or when you go look in a mirror or bandages off? Yeah. Probably like bandages off. Mm-hmm. Bandages off for sure. I think. Um I think like for the first couple of for the first few days or whatever, just like cane. Yeah. Just so and just not feeling good, like just so tired, just sleeping. But yeah, then taking bandages off, and you know, even though it was still healing, not exactly pretty or whatever, um in terms of like just yeah, still cuts and still stitches. But yeah, well I felt like, oh, okay, that's better. That looks more like it, you know, and that's my partner says that too. Sometimes it's just like when I'll just get can easier, more easy to walk around, you know, with my shirt off or whatever, and she'll just all of a sudden say it too, just being like, Yeah, I can't believe that was never that wasn't like all you.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

You know, and it's like seem similar, like when I cut my hair um as an adult, because I had to grow it out as a teenager. This is just like part of the hair. Had a had well, I had short hair when I was young, and then when I was a teenager, I grew it out long so that my mom would stop curling my hair. That was our goal. That was our deal. And then when I was an adult and like I cut my hair, I was like, ah, there you are. Sweet. So I think, yeah. Surgery was like another point of like, ah, cool. There you are. Yeah. And did you, if you don't mind me asking, did you have um keep nipples or tattoo nipples, or do you take your shirt off in the summer? Like what's your um well, it was hard to decide what to do. I was a little anxious that the nipples wouldn't work or take, but so yeah, so I kept my nipples and um so I've got that. And then um I do, yeah. I mean, I when I go swimming, I take my shirt off in the summer and I'm going into the ocean or um things like that. I take my shirt off. I'm mostly more embarrassed about how pale I am than I don't want to like blind people with my whiteness. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. But you feel okay take your shirt off? I mean, you know, it is a like I do feel okay doing it. I don't know how other people feel all always, but I've spent a lot of time in my life trying to not care what other people think. Yeah. And not just like if I cared what other people think, I would not be where I'm at. So I just kind of gotta do it for you. And just kind of see what happens. But definitely it's scary, so you know, no judgment about what other people do by any means, of course. But that's just kind of I'm like, well, I didn't get this to not enjoy it, and to so and now I can. So it's nice to be able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. Mm-hmm. And was that kind of like short hair, top surgery? That kind of land you in, you know, who who you feel most comfortable in, or is there more things you would do or want to do? I mean, uh yeah, for the most part. I mean, I think got a little eyebrow ring that helped. Uh-huh. A couple of tattoos, might get a couple more tattoos, but in terms of like gender-affirming surgeries and things, I feel like very satisfied and very myself, very done.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Um, with kind of like uh maybe like specific medical interventions and things. Yeah. For now, and for me, I'm feeling very satisfied and comfortable and happy. That's great. Yeah. So great. Yeah, and really grateful that I'm able to be here and have that opportunity. Yeah. Because a lot of people, you know, still don't get that opportunity. So I'm grateful it exists. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to show and tell that there are options, you know, whether it is just cutting your hair or maybe changing your clothes, or maybe it's having top surgery, but it's it's one or two or not, or it it it doesn't have to be like one way or the other. Like there's a lot of ways that people feel affirmed. Um and you know, folks just have to find the way that works for them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I love and I love that part, you know, and that's what I think the kids probably are getting right more and more these days, is like, yeah, there's lots now, there's lots more words to describe how people identify. Yeah. Then when I was a kid, there's only a couple, you know, so more vocabulary, and then people are exploring more and not having to always fit into you're either straight or gay, you're either yeah, yeah, uh cis or you know, transgender wanting to go to the other binary or something like that. Uh-huh. There's a lot of in-betweens. So that's nice. And do you feel in between or do you identify as a I mean, you said non-binary, so right? You said all of them, so in between. In between. Um, yeah, it's hard to always know exactly um how to describe it, I suppose. Um, because I mean, I um like I was raised female and I do identify probably a little bit more with uh female with females and like feel m you know, spend a lot more time with females and and women perhaps than with like all men or males, and that's also, you know, probably just because of the way I grew up, there was a lot of splitting people up by by binary gender or whatever. I feel a lot of solidarity with women, with like lesbians, with with like femininity. There are parts of me I feel like they're feminine, and I don't want to necessarily like get rid of all that. Um but I just definitely always been more on the mask side of things and especially of like presenting um in my yeah, gender and my clothes and things like that. Um yeah, but I just like um I definitely I guess instead of like growing up thinking, oh hey, I want to be a I want to be a boy, I want to be a man, that wasn't necessarily it was like I just want to be me. And I want to be allowed to do the types of things that I enjoy and to dress the way I want to.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

And to just be and hang out and not have to be put in this camp or in this camp. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's kind of that's it. Yeah. That was so I think that's probably maybe the most uh easiest way to describe it. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it's it's so kind of pure in a way. It's you know, we spent all this time struggling and fighting against, you know, folks who are trying to like squish us or make us not be. And it's really pretty darn simple. Like, I like chopping wood, or I, you know, I don't know. I mean silly, but it's just yeah, we are in the middle, whatever that looks like, and just leave us alone. Thank you very much. Leave us alone, or be nice, or yeah, be nice, and also it's just like, yeah. Okay, just more it's just a more accurate representation of like human reality. Yeah, yeah. And how about um being misgendered? Washrooms, how things, how's all that for you? Yeah. I mean, as a kid, I would not drink water at school, so I wouldn't have to go to the bathroom. Really? So I grew up like especially in like elementary school and junior high, I was like terrified because of some negative experiences I'd had in washrooms, being bullied and uh uh yeah, that I was really avoidant, so I would like not. I spent like the first maybe like uh the first eight years of school being severely dehydrated. But I mean but yeah, I made it through. Uh but yeah, definitely misgendered a lot in uh bathrooms. I mean, I played soccer growing up, which was amazing and awesome. And then like when it got to high school soccer and time to try out, I was like, that's when you started to be like in the um locker rooms, taking showers. I'm like, I could not cope. Uh-huh. I was like, kept falling in love with all my teammates, yeah, didn't understand what really was going on. And I'm just like, I just can't. I'm just gonna do something else that's a little bit more of a solitary sport because I just can't be in these locker rooms anymore. So yeah. Breaks my heart. Um, yeah. I and yeah, I'm not trying to be a downer or whatever. It's just kind of really interesting and funny, like the different things that come up and the different choices that we make. Yeah. And then you're like looking back on it, being like, huh, well, yeah. Who knew that's why I chose that? Like, that's not why I told my parents that I chose that. Sure. But looking back, it's definitely to not cope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we should start a you know, the iron bladder support group. Yeah, I mean, I can't, I'm probably not the only person who did that, right? So I've talked to a lot of iron bladders through this series. 100%. Oh my gosh. And nowadays I'm like, clear in, clear out. That's my motto. Uh-huh. Gotta stay hydrated. Yeah. So anyway, but yeah, still get misgendered in washrooms. And I mean, I don't know. I guess you just get used to it and you kind of have your auto automatic response that you go to. Yeah. Um, I tend to be a bit more passive. So I'll go into a women's washroom most of the time. Um, sometimes I go into the men's, but going into women's washroom most of the time and I look down and just try to make people not feel, I guess, like scared or uncomfortable or like they can say anything to me. I go in and I keep my eyes down because it's and that's the same with locker rooms. I'm like, you don't uh as far as you know, I'm not even here. I'm not even here. I just gotta empty this bladder. I just gotta pee. I gotta wash my hands. I'm out. And then I'm out. Yeah. I'm invisible, actually. If you didn't notice you can't see me. Um cool. All right. Well then how about um how about some fun stuff? Fun stuff. Fun stuff. Like like uh what do you do when you wake up in the morning? What's the first thing? Take my meds. Okay. Take my meds, uh and pee and freedom. Yeah, pee and freedom. I'm like, oh Lord, I'm like 40 now, so I'd kind of do that a few times during the night. Right. Oh, whatever. Um, no, I just wake up, take my meds, eat breakfast, and then I usually just like I try to always I try to listen to something uh like maybe a podcast or music. It makes me feel good, centered. The type of work work I do is uh not the easiest. So I really spend most mornings kind of trying to center myself. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what what sort of clothes is it how you are now? Like what makes what do you love to wear that makes you just feel you and great? Yep. Uh just like yeah, t-shirts, uh usually not bandages, but jeans I really like. Um I'm more, yeah, just kind of like mostly jeans, t-shirts. Always love plaid. Always joke that like plaid is you know, like uh my inherited culture as a queer person, like, you know, I don't know how so I love yeah, plaid has always been in style. Cargo sh cargo shorts I wear less of. Always uh thanks to Sarah, helps me choose better clothes, but uh less cargo shorts, a little bit yeah, more jeans. I love boots, I love Tim's. Do you like suits? I actually don't wear dressed dressed up clothes very often. I'm very casual. Maybe that's kind of like going against my upbringing as religious, perhaps. I don't know. I wore more more w way more ties when I was a little kid than I do now. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. But I mean, like it does feel good to be able to, yeah, get a little bit dressed up and wear a suit and look good, look sharp. Yep. Thanks. Yep, you got lots of good suits. I love your suits. Yeah, that's great. Love the suits. Yeah. Um, okay, how about comfort food? What's your go-to? Barbecue and fried chicken. Okay. A specific kind of fried chicken? I I well, like like fried chicken from the from like the south, like the way that they do it in Texas. And buttermilk, fried chicken. Really good. And then barbecue and like cornbread. And corn there's not a ton of cornbread up here, but yeah, really like cornbread.

unknown 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Has been the theme of fried chicken in this series. Oh, really? Uh-huh. Ah, it is good company. We'll have to all get together and jukes. Yeah, right. Yeah. Uh you say you have a dog, right? So you do dog person? Dog person. Dog person. Not cat. They've always been mean to me. I don't know. I've had some girlfriends who had cats and we did not get along. So, I mean, I love that other people love cats. Yeah. You support them. I support them. Um, are you a city or a forest kind of person? Man, that's a hard choice. Um both. I like both. Somewhere in between. Suburbs. Yes. Not the suburbs, but uh yeah. I mean, I think in my younger years, city. Yep. And now I'm like wanting to go back to the forest. And I did spend a lot of time in the mountains when I was young, and I just feel like it's more peaceful. And I kind of like am inching towards the peaceful end of things as opposed to like the wild and the city and the rackus side of things. Yeah. We got some good forests here. Such good, such amazing forest, yeah. And do you have a favorite place to go in Vancouver or thing to do that you like to do? Uh I do like to go um I do like to go on hikes and do little uh river dips up in uh North Vancouver at Hyenna's Point. It's really uh refreshing. Refreshing and glacier water thing to do. It's nice nice and cold. If you dance. Do you dance? Do you like to dance? I do. Okay. What kind of music gets you gets you going? It's always been hip hop. Huh. Okay. Yeah. So I think it just because it's political, it's emotional, it's fun, it's upbeat. It's always just yeah, more of what I loved. Yeah. I do like Doji. Yeah. Yes, very she's very good. Yeah. Yeah. What's your favorite um season? Spring. Um because it's just like uh the maybe like the gloom and depression starts to fade Vancouver from everybody. All of a sudden you go out, the sun's out, you're like, oh my god, people do live in this city. Yeah. Not everybody left. Right, right. Sometimes you get to those points in the winter where you just go out. I'm like taking the dog out, looking around, being like, where is everybody?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

So I like spring.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

It's dark all day. Yeah. Spring is nice. Cherry blossoms. Cherry blossoms. Cherry blossoms are the best. Just thinking about, you know, what we've chatted about today, and what does representation mean to you? I think uh representation is really important. I don't really represent anything except for myself, but I think that's the great thing about so many amazing people being able to tell their stories and um get out there. I think that's probably one of the benefits. Uh one of the, you know, pros of maybe like this technology social media age. There's lots of negatives, but the pros is like there's so many people like who you know, you don't need permission to put yourself out there. So then that helps people know all the differences that exist and the ways to be. And yeah, various ways to be and yeah, helps people feel not so alone, which is always good. So what would you say um to that little Gwen trapped b back in Mormonville? Uh or to somebody like that, yes, like you, who might be even out there now and has social media. I would okay. Couple things. One is you don't have to believe everything you think. That's helped me kind of like in many different ways over the past 20 years. And then also Brandy Carlisle, great artist, has the song has like the song with the um oh what does it say? It says uh only uh broken horses know to run. Mm-hmm. That's what I'd tell. Hmm. Just doesn't seem okay now, but this is you're gonna run. Yeah. And this is gonna help you, you know, be the person that you want to be. So love that. Yeah. So gotta put a little Brandy Carlisle quote. Everywhere, I guess. Thank you. So yeah, you're welcome. Uh well, and thank you. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and sharing your story and telling us it'll it will make a difference to somebody out there. I know that. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm grateful for the opportunity. Thanks for listening to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. On Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, Mr. GenderPod, webmrgender.com, email hello at mrgender.com. That's M I S D E R. The doc Notquite That is at notquite that dotca. Free to watch at TELUS Originals, Optic TV, and Knowledge Network.