MIS(TER)GENDERED S1 E8 LOUISE MARSHALL

 |Join host Sar White in conversation with Louise Marshall, co‑owner of It’s Still a Dog’s Life where all the cool Vancouver dogs get groomed, as she shares her story - from small town farm life to Vancouver’s 90’s lesbian nightlife, embracing her identity along the way.

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I gratefully acknowledged this series was recorded on the unceded traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Slewatooth nations. Indigenous peoples have maintained stewardship and jurisdiction over these lands since time immemorial. Were you a tomboy? Were you not? Like the rugby pants? Rugby pants, right? Yeah. Rugby pants and just a sweatshirt. Like that was like I got away with a lot with that. And here's the vest. And here's the vest. You look awesome. Welcome to Mr. Gendered, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. Today we'll meet Louise Marshall, who runs It's Still a Dog's Life with her lifelong partner, where all the cool dogs in Vancouver get grouped. After work, you'll find her paddleboarding on lakes, oceans, and yes, fast-flowing rivers. Let's join the conversation. Uh, why don't you start by giving us a snapshot of who you are today, how you identify your your age, your pronouns if you have, uh gender, anything like that that you feel like sharing with us? All right, so I'm a Gen Xer, 58. I identify as female. Okay. Yeah, and who I am today is I have a partner of 25 years, um, in a great relationship. I have a beautiful home life, and we share our business together as well. So we are literally, you know, always together, and and it's been it's a it's a really nice life, I feel like I'm having. Yeah, nice with my partner and who I am today. Yeah. Um, and do you identify as gay, lesbian any email? For the most part, I would probably say gay. I'm using the word lesbian a little bit more with a bit more confidence. Um But yeah, that's really what I would say. Yeah. So when you say using lesbian with a little more confidence, what's what's there for you? I I mean it's the same thing that we've heard a lot of people say it was kind of like that, but it had an undertone of harshness sometimes. And and um it just seemed a bit negative. And I feel like it's being embraced more now as not being all the rage. It's all the rage. You know, we'll probably get into it, but you know, like, you know, family members didn't like that word. Right. So it's just kind of like it has a bad association. Yeah, yeah. It seemed to be sort of the cringe word for them. And um, so I I'm more confident with it now for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So let's let's go back a bit then and think about little Louise and uh you know the your journey of how you came, you know, what you remember as a kid. Were you a tomboy? Were you not? Like what were you like as a kid? And kind of as much as you want to paint a picture of how you became Louise the lesbian today. Yeah. Well, my memories go back like to when I was three. I had a crush on my mom's friend. So I in I I mean, whether I had words for that or not, I just had crushes on so many women throughout my life. So I knew who I was. Um And when you say I knew who I was, like, was there like at three, you probably don't know, like I'm a lesbian. No, I did not know that. It probably over time something. Yeah, and I knew and I knew it was different than what I should be. Uh-huh. Right. I mean, so my sister and I are like 18 months apart. She's old. Right. And we are a so polar opposite. She is the she's just feminine, everything feminine. Um, you know, my parents had to look out for her because of the boys, right? Right. And me, total tomboy, right? Um so I knew what was expected of me as a young girl, but I never were they okay with that? Like, did they let you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tomboy, I mean, yeah, for the most part. I mean, I grew up on like a little farm, right? So it's not like I had to really wear dresses. But when we were younger, and I was born in England and I spent the first seven years there, we always were dressed identically, my sister and I. It's just what families did then. You just dress the same. So, you know, maybe that had something to do with, you know, feeling like I have to fit in, you know, like later on, like coming to Canada and whatever. But I wasn't forced into it, but I knew I wasn't fitting in. And so how about going to school? Going to school. I mean, I was just always in sports, right? And, you know, and I was lucky, I think they were called the rugby pants. Remember? I mean, I was lucky. That was my era. Rugby shorts. Rugby pants, right? Yes, rugby pants and just a sweatshirt. Like that was like I got away with a lot with that, right? Yeah, yeah, sports. You know, like I'm either in a sports, you know, uniform or I'm in rugby pants, so I kind of got away with a bit there. And then, you know, my home life, I was, you know, mucking out stables and riding horses, so there's no, you know, there's no dresses there. Yeah, yeah. My mom tried to, you know, encourage some things, and I wore a dress to grad and you know, but it wasn't huge in my life. How do you remember how you felt wearing that dress or the story of the dress? I was I was excited in some ways. Terrified, and I felt like I was just in drag without having those words for it then, but I I wasn't comfortable. I hoped it would make a difference, but it didn't. Right. Yeah, so yeah. And what were did the crushes start to take on a different feeling or connotation in high school as you, you know, got older? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was yeah, I mean, crushes throughout, and I mean, I just I just knew just because of you know your thoughts and desires that it was just taking me to a different way. And did you ever talk about it, or was it just something you kept inside? Like no friends. No, no, no, no, no. And it turns out I ended up having two friends that were gay, but none of us discussed it. It was like when we were until we were like 19, is when we all like, you know, we all kind of knew, but it was still the fear of openly discussing it. And uh, and I think my biggest fear was my parents ever knowing. And I wanted to tell them, I just didn't want them to find out without me having that conversation. Right. So I think I because as soon as I did tell out come out to my parents, it didn't matter to me who I talked to about it then after that. Like it just was like that was sort of I had to get that done, and then my life actually moved forward very quickly after that. So the crushes then became having girlfriends, which I think I was 20 when I had my first like actual girlfriend. So yeah. And what about um being on the farm and mucking about and your dad being a blacksmith? Yeah, blacksmith, yeah. And were did he kind of let you help out? Or was would he encourage you to get in there and use tools and get dirty? And absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was his tomboy. Like, and so you know what when you when I think about it, yeah. I was absolutely embraced for being the tomboy. Kind of like the son he didn't have. He does. Oh, yeah. But right, right, right, your brother, okay. But yeah, that which is understandable. I mean, I was basically in between the two of them, right? You know, I was kind of definitely the middle child. Um, but my brother didn't care about horses, right? Like it wasn't his thing, he was like like on the mechanical side of things. So for me, that was my absolute bond with my dad was the horses. And uh yeah, so I got to, yeah. And he was, I mean, he was proud to show me off as being the big strong one, right? Like, oh that's great. There's a lot of funny stories, but yeah, so in that way I was absolutely embraced for being allowed to be who I was, yeah. Who make a difference? Yeah, versus being banned from the stables because you're a girl or yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so that's that's the those are good memories, yeah. Yeah. And so 20, the real coming out or getting the girl friends. And how were you presenting then? Were you like presenting the way like hair, clothes, like was there a shift there when you came out, or was it always still can you have carried the spirit of the tomboy the whole way through? For the most part, able to carry the spirit of the tomboy. Um, I did go to a private college, what a waste. But they made you wear a dress to look the professional part. And so every, you know, like that was the only time really in my life since then that I've had to how long was that for? Oh good six months. Uh huh. Yeah. Otherwise, whatever, you know, my affordability was at the time, you know, um just jeans, Doc Martin's, you know, when I could get into those. And yeah. So I um and I think we'll come back to her, but like Katie Line kind of was a bit of a I know Yes. You know what? I didn't, it wasn't like I was like a huge follower, but there was just something comforting about how she represented, and I just felt I could move forward with that because I was basically of her era coming out with the music and stuff. So I feel very, very fortunate that way. Yeah. Yeah. It gave me some confidence. Oh wow. And I was really lucky. So I was in Vernon for two years after a couple of years, you know, doing some other work, and and that was fun. And then I followed a girlfriend to Vancouver, and then she dumped me pretty quick. And I'm like, wow, I'm in Vancouver in this city that I am like, I am not comfortable. Like, I don't belong here. My parents and I always thought I'd be living in the mountains somewhere, you know, in a cabin. Like I was like so out of my depth. And and I went to talk of the town, and I met somebody there, Crema. Uh-huh. And for some reason, she took me under her wing and she got me a job there, and I thought I had nailed it. It was awesome. And then from there, and so I got to meet people and be around women, be around my community for the first time. And then I was in celebrities working, and it was like, and I came to Vancouver in 1990 during the gay games. Like, I couldn't have landed here at a better time. And so from being like of just having crushes and kind of had a moving one girlfriend in in um Vernon to Vancouver, and I felt embraced and I'm here in the center of it all. It was wild. It was Talk of the Town. Talk of the town. Tell us about Talk of the Town, just for those who may not have been around in that time. Talk of the town was just it was a lesbian nightclub, right? A couple of nights a week, uh maybe even three or four nights a week, because I actually had a full-time job. Like that was how you know, like that's how busy we were then. I feel like I had a really amazing start in my uh 20s for sure coming here. So very thankful for being dumped quite quickly in Vancouver. Yeah, you did well. You did well. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay. And so, yeah, I mean, it it seems like in a way that not that it was easy sailing, but your coming out was kind of a fairly smooth progression, and then you landed in Vancouver, and so well, I kind of glossed over the coming out. I mean, I knew like I because I had the crushes, I knew who I was, and as I got older, I definitely knew that I wanted to be with women, and then there was the fear of that, and it took like there was a real fear of Louis losing my parents. And um and it's not like we were super, super tight, like they're but we you know, they're your parents, they're my parents, right? And and we were close, but they they gave me a lot of freedom, like a lot of freedom. And um, but losing them or them just coming to me and saying, Hey, I found out, or what's this all about? Like, I I had to take control of that. Yeah. And I mean, it's funny now, but I'd because we used to write then. Remember when we used to write letters letters, yes. Yes, I did. So I wrote them a six-page letter, legal form, both sides. Whoa. Huge, huge coming out letter to my parents. And then I just sent it the next day without rereading it. But I really came out to them like I poured my guts out. Sounds like it. I really did. And I think I want to I anyways, they they read it, and their words to me were we love you. My dad's in the background, let her know I love her. And then it was awkward for six months. But then we just slowly gained traction and things have just moved forward slowly but always in the right direction. So yeah. Do you have that letter? They do, I think. Have you did you ever reread it? No. Oh man. I know. I really I just oh my god. Sometimes it's hard to look back on those things. Sometimes it's hard to look back. I mean, I know I really did pour my guts, and and I've been doing it for like months with this letter, right? And finally one day it was just like you just my friends like you just gotta stick it in the mail. And and that's like literally what happened. And uh, yeah. But yeah. But after that, I just my coming out was much easier. Yeah. Much easier, especially since I landed in Vancouver when I did. And yeah. Yeah. Won the lesbian lottery, clearly. Yeah, yeah. And even in my job now, like, I mean, people come in and whether they assume or it's a small city, really, right? Or people talk, there's it it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. We can be every bit who we are, and and it just doesn't matter. So I wanted to ask you about um the the dinner party that we had here that was in the film Not Quite That, uh, which I'll include some information at the end of the podcast about if people want to check it out. Tell us a bit about that, because I I just remember you taught we talked about it quite a bit afterwards and that kind of impact it had on you or what it made you think about. Well, I know that for the question I said that I would probably have reconstruct reconstructive surgery. Right. Um, I was afraid to not have breasts. Um and I'd fought with my breasts all my life. I've I'd never really cared for them. Um I think mostly because like really with the way clothes fit and stuff, it started to bring up a lot of, you know, memories, like me being challenged about who I was. Like, I mean, in this day and era, there's like a lot of um, you know, pronouns for how I felt, probably in my 30s and 40s. Like, do I really feel female? I know I didn't feel male, but I didn't feel like a woman, like there was all those kinds of things. And I had some struggling moments with that. Um, but because of that dinner and this honest discussions that everybody had about themselves and embracing who you are, I I came out of it and I just was like, you know what? I'm I'm embracing who I am, what I am right now, and and just had the confidence to move forward from that that dinner party and saying, I am female, and this is who I am. Yeah. So is that what it was for you that before you said you felt like you weren't either, but then you felt like at that point you felt I am female? Or tell me more about that. You know, um, I I I wavered. Um, I didn't, I didn't I never felt like I wanted to have any changes, but I just I just didn't feel like I really belonged. I was really muddled with it until that dinner. And even the next dinner really solidified it more. And from there, I just was like, I just I felt like I just needed to be embraced by these wonderful women that just were like be, you know, like be proud of who you are, who you think, who you want to be. And and you know, I think a couple of our female friends at the time have come out as they them. And it was just about embracing who you are. But I came out saying, you know what? No, I am. I am I am female, I accept who I am, and and um I'll still wear vests, you know, just more comfortable. But but uh yeah, it it really helped me not look back anymore. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I think it was just friends and support. I just felt that. Right. Yeah. Right. That that sort of and the safety to talk about it. Right? Yeah there was there was that it was safe. That's what I thought about that evening. It was so beautiful and safe, even though there was really no introduction to that, but all these women just really respected each other's um thoughts and uh and uh opinions and um and stories that were told, right? And I just thought it was really beautiful that. I think it's the power of listening and being witnessed because it it there was no there weren't instructions, but no, everybody took a turn and nobody said, Oh, that reminds me of some like there was there was no interjections, there was no comments, there was yeah, it just went one after the other after the other. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of power in listening to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I absolutely felt that that night. Yeah, yeah. So what are um everyday? I mean, I know you're in your own business and you have a certain amount of control over that environment. Um just being in other places, like do you get misgendered in washrooms and things like that? How's that going? I've always had the sur. Uh-huh. I've you know gone into bathrooms, definitely. People are taking that quick look. And um probably more embarrassed that it's happened, I am. But now I mean, I had a really bad um um situation where I was swimming in the change room, and there's all these like like there was a like a little swim class that had just come out, and the kids are probably 13 and 14, and the parents are waiting for them outside and um just in the the community center, and and I came out and like the looks on their faces, these parents, like it was just shock. Like a guy just walked out of their kids' room, change room, and I felt it like a blow, and I was like afraid for them, afraid of them, right? Afraid afraid for myself, and it was just so quick that when I went through the door, I I almost broke my arm because it was the wrong door to go through. You were just trying to get out, yeah. And there was no way for me to just um show that I wasn't a man because I think it was winter, right? So and that one really that one that one hurt just because it was just such a misunderstanding. And I think that people kind of figured it out quickly, but in just those three or four seconds, it was just like that fear and then that that understanding. But but now it's like if if somebody says something, I'm probably more embarrassed, like for my friend that's with me that you know might be kind of going, oh god, that's a bit awkward. But now I'm like, you know what, I just own it. Like I have short hair. Right. Not that, you know, straight women don't have short hair, but I know, I know how I'm presenting and and I'm okay with that. Like you do. I mean, I do I do say when I go into change rooms, though, the first thing I'm doing is pretty much smiling, making eye contact, because I think I might have a more I might look a bit more feminine, like, or just that smile that just says, I'm okay. And I'm I mean, as you know, I'm pretty easy to have a quick conversation. Conversation with, right? So I usually try to put people at ease first, but it's not a burden anymore. It's just it's just the way it is. That's that's all. Yeah. And do you use your voice sometimes like to signify that you're a woman? I don't think have a feminine voice though. You don't? No. I no, I probably just smile body language. It's body language for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I think eye contact and the smiling, that's it's my go-to anyways, most places, like, or most most mostly anything, yeah. Mm-hmm. And um well, I do oh you know, covet your clothes always. Yeah. Uh we do. And do you predominantly is that what you feel most comfortable in? Is like buying it's I guess it's mostly men's clothes or pretty much? Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And um, Tracy, my partner, she really does help me get dressed. I mean, not dressed, but she really helps pick out my clothes. Like, because I had really bad taste. Ah. I tried things and she's like, let me take a picture. I'm like, oh yeah, okay. Next. Right. So she's a huge part of, and so very supportive, then, right? And um, and even between the two of us, you know, we've she's learned to accept that this is how I like to dress, and it's like, well, if this is how you're dressing, like we're gonna make it look good. I just want to just loop back to that um Katie Lang, because I think that's so um important, kind of interesting and important. Um so I had I'd forgotten about Katie Lang and how for those of us who identified this way, yeah, to see somebody like that was kind of mind-blowing. It was. It was like I'm not on my own. Because before Vernon, growing up, my thoughts were I had to either be a nun to be with a woman, uh, or be in prison. This is this was how small my circle was, because I had no circle. I had no idea how would how I would ever be able to be with a woman. I mean, not that I really thought about being a nun or going to prison, but I never thought there was a life outside of just me having these crushes. It would just always be a good thing. There was no there was nothing gay on TV or anything up until I was like 19. Like there was nothing. One of my dad's so my dad used to teach a lot blacksmithing and stuff, being a farrier. And he had two women that were in it, and that was the closest I ever got to seeing anything gay. Seeing anybody gay, I should say. And then Because you knew, or they just the way they presented. For the way they presented, and I was just all like flushed and giggled and oh my god, right. Right. Just wanted to be near them, right? Because it was like that was the closest. And then I'm in Vernon and Katie Lang comes out, and it was like, wow, there's there is another life. There's there is a life that I can have, and that I can I you just you just felt that she was doing something for us, even though I didn't think of it at that moment. I just was I felt like wow, there's um yeah, her just choosing to be herself, yeah. Herself and just an incredible performer, right? Like you just I was just I felt when I think of it now, it's like there was just this big hug. Mm. Like I'm gonna be okay. Yeah, that's why I want to have um lunch with her. I kind of think of back to like seeing her at the Orpheum probably in the maybe 80s, 90s, and just all of us types being like, wow, and then all the girlfriends are just like yeah, yeah. Cause she had a a swagger. Oh my god. Has a swagger, yeah, you know, yeah, like Katie Lang, like um, yeah, wow, she really did help me come out. Huh. Yeah. So why can't that's probably the most significant one? Can you think of other sometimes I like almost smack myself when I was in high school? I did not know that Elton John was gay. Oh, yeah. Well, I yeah, okay. I was just surprised that he got married. Yeah, really? No. Like that's how far I was from knowing gayness. Like loved him. Yeah. At every record, yeah, loved him, but never it never occurred to me that all of the there was some gayness happening there anyway. Yeah. But I had me haven't met them on the post with that. Probably had to be just super obvious, like Katie Lang, but I'm not sure. But you know what? I mean, you say that, right? But and I'm saying, oh yeah, I knew he was gay, but the thing is that I probably never saw watch videos of him for the most part. So I never thought of him as being gay and me being seeing that there's somebody that's big gay and famous out there. So yeah, maybe I didn't have my thumb on the pulse with that either. Ah, yeah. Okay, well, how about some uh some fun stuff? What what do you do first thing? Like first thing when you wake up, what do you do? Oh god, okay, so I get up and I make my partner and I our matcha teas and I have a ginger lemon hot tea in the morning, and we sit for about a half an hour and I read and she scrolls and catches up on weather and stuff like that. Because it's so dark you don't know what the weather is. I know we're always trying to figure out because you know, Tracy, she likes to know what the weather is because we need to know if we're gonna go paddling or not. For sure. Yeah, so she's the itinerary for that, yeah. Uh I probably don't have to ask this, but cat or dog? Dog. I know. That's a rhetorical question. I love cats, I'm allergic to them, so I have to love them at a distance. Ah, I see, I see, I see. What's your favorite season? I'm gonna say fall. Yeah. For one thing, it's got great clothes. Right? I love it. I know. Yeah, I love the fall clothes. I love I mean, and you know, but I just I absolutely love just the colors and the freshness, and I think um, I think our city's beautiful in the fall too. Yeah. Yeah. How about then on the theme of city, Vancouver, favorite place or places to go or things to do? You love to do that. Okay, so glad you asked that question. Um I live in the city, but I feel like I don't live in the city. Um, but at least two or three times a week, we go out, we're paddleboarders, and we're out on the water anywhere from like 5 30 in the morning till nine, like nine o'clock in the morning. And so we're usually maybe one of three or four of the people out on the water. And we get to see our city at the most beautiful times of the morning and the lighting of all different seasons because we paddle throughout the whole year, and it's when I'm reminded that I live in the city, and we've got the city and we've got the mountains, and I just feel so blessed. What about okay, what about music that gets you dancing? Okay, well, like I said, um because I came to Vancouver in the 90s, that music is just the best, and because I worked at celebrities and talk of the town, yeah. I I mean, I got the best music three or four nights a week. I just I got five years of incredible music to just work to every night. It was so I feel that that's in your veins? It's in my veins. Uh how about go-to comfort food? Well, okay, so I'm plant-based. Mm-hmm. I know. And if I'm going to have a comfort food, it's probably gonna be a vegetable dipped in fried in something. Fried in something. Okay, there you go. Like uh, like the uh the mushroom burgers. Yeah. Right. The one that's been, you know, fried up. The mushrooms. Nice. And French fries, yeah. So thinking about, you know, what we've chatted about today. Um what what what does representation mean to you? And uh like why did you say yes to doing this podcast kind of thing? Like you didn't have to. No, I didn't. And um I think it kind of circles back to that first dinner and the stories people told. And no matter if you're gay, straight, anything, when these stories are presented to you in the way that they you'll be able to present them to the world, you know, with your questions, you we get a little bit deeper in things, and and I think it allows people to really hear us and understand a little bit more. Because I was actually just I was at an RMT just before this, and my RMT's straight, and we're talking about what we're gonna be doing, and she's like, I really want to listen to this podcast, let me know when it's on. And she goes, Because I really will I really want to hear their story. And I was like, Okay, it gave me that confidence to to do this even more on why I'm doing it, because it's people like her that just genuinely understand people more through the stories. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so like a story versus uh intellectual discussion about the importance of representation. You know what I mean? It's like you don't have to, you just have to tell a story and for people to experience a real person and their real story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So what would you say to that little Louise who was pulled between nunnery and prison? Um or another little Louise maybe out there right now that's struggling. You know that question. I think all I would I what I would want to do is give myself a great big hug and just whisper in my ear and just say, it's going to be okay. Just it's going to be okay. And here's a vest. And here's a vest. You look awesome. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. It was uh it was overalls then. Yeah. Um I just I just want to say, yeah, you'll be okay. Not to um torment yourself too much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's there is definitely another world out there. I was just I was just in a really small town, you know, like I'm not blaming it or anything like that. It's just how I grew up, but I would say you're gonna be okay. Yeah, I find it really inspiring hearing all these stories and your story and how somehow, you know, people find a way to, you know, you found a way to to follow through to kind of make it to who you are and who you need to be and to feel good about yourself. And it's so amazing. Yeah. So yay. I think I think um I think there was a community. I always somehow found that there is a community, even if it's just for small times of your life that help you move forward and just opening yourself up. Yeah, but and what are you most hopeful about these days? If you are. I am hopeful that the work that we've all done like in the last 35 years, I'm hopeful that we're st we can still keep moving forward. I think there's a lot of hiccups right now, bad hiccups. Um, but I think our communities, our small pockets of friends, um listening to stories. Um I think they're gonna help us keep moving forward or help us to keep that momentum of where are we gonna be in 20 more years from now? Like, I have no idea because 35 years ago, I had no idea I would be here. Yeah. And I'm excited and hopeful to see maybe in 20 years what our conversation will be like. Because I think we'll have it. Yeah. And I am and I'm hopeful and excited for that conversation because I think I think it'll be um I think it'll be amazing to look back. Okay, I'm putting it in my calendar. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for listening to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. On Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, Mr. Gender Pod, webmrgender.com, email hello at mrgender.com. That's M-I-S-T-E-R. The doc not quite that is at notquitethat.ca. Free to watch at Telest Originals, Optic TV, and Knowledge Network.