MIS(TER)GENDERED S1 EPISODE 10 SHEILA GILHOOLY

 |Join host Sar White in conversation Sheila Gilhooly, a retired mental‑health worker and proud butch dyke, who recounts surviving forced institutionalization in the 1970s and building a life of resistance, love, and pride.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I gratefully acknowledge this series was recorded on the unceded traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Slewatooth nations. Indigenous peoples have maintained stewardship and jurisdiction over these lands since time immemorial. You were one of the first lesbians that I met. And uh I'm glad. And you felt welcomed. I did. Yeah. I did. Well, that was that was the end. I met all of you, and that was it. The rest is history. Welcome to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. Today we talk to Sheila Gilhooley, a happily retired mental health worker living with her wife in Vancouver. She's a proud butch whose story and actions have paved the way for many of us. Let's join the conversation. Start out with we know your name, Sheila, but if you would, your age, how you identify, any other, you know, important things to start off about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Well, my pronouns are she, her. Finding other lesbians was finally feeling like I belonged somewhere. And it's, you know, it still does. So uh I grew up in Ottawa with uh in an Irish Catholic family who weren't too bad, actually. They were always really nice to Barbara. On the other hand, they wouldn't let me come to family weddings at which I wore a dress. And even though I say to them, Well, you know, picture me in a dress. Right. If you don't want me to stand out and look noticeable, I'd even borrow the suit and everything. You know, it wasn't horrible, but I certainly didn't feel like anybody abro embraced my uh so I was better when I got away from I took a sociology of deviance course appropriately enough. Sat in the front row because I had a f crush on a professor. And there was another woman next to me who had a crush on a professor. But you know, I didn't presume that she might be a lesbian. That would have been way too presumptuous. Um because back then people didn't really brag about being butch. And other lesbians didn't necessarily uh some of them had this dumb notion that somehow we made it worse for other people by being so obvious and attracting so much hostility. And I think one of the things that you and I talked about was the whole you don't belong here attitude of people in places like washrooms and change rooms, they're even worse.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

In terms of I'm pretty sure I know how what you refer to yourself as butch lesbian, would that be accurate how you identify?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Because there are so many ways to identify these days. But you are you know butch lesbian from way back.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

From way back.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah. And do you mind telling us how old you are?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

I'm 74. I see I came out about fifty fifty-five years ago.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Actually in 1969, the same year as Stonewall. Always thought that was kind of neat.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah. When I came out, uh yeah, in 1981, you were one of the first in the first group of uh lesbians that I met. And uh I'm glad. And you felt welcomed. I did. Yeah. I did. Well, that was that was the end. I met all of you, and that was that was history. That was it. The rest is history. Um, but I I did want to mention that you know, seeing you was so important for me, somebody who presented as unapologetically butch, um, in that way. And it was really important to me as as a young person who um had had a hard time or didn't even know they were gay, but also was learning about that side of themselves, that butch side. And so super important for me to to see someone like you and meet someone like you.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Because of course I had my own uh mentors, Leslie Feinberg for one though, did not know personally.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Um, but there were Joan Nessel, just Dorothy Allison, I mean, just people who were sticky and people here in Vancouver who were public about who they were, and people didn't do that, so it really gave one an inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Um You know, like you presented this way since the day you were born, you know, because you know that in these days people transition or they, you know, do things that make them feel more comfortable themselves. But I just I think it's important to understand that you are this way, you've always been this way. In terms of having a deeper voice, um presenting more masculine, that's that's you. Yeah. When are you first aware of that in yourself, like as a child, or what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Uh when I was young, I was allowed to be a tomboy, it was quite indulged, you know. I played softball, I didn't, it was kind of like, oh, she looks tomboy. But when I started menstruating, literally, and became I was supposed to change. I was supposed to be more ladylike, I was supposed to wear different clothes. And I never gave in to that because I just I couldn't. Right. And I I looked so awful to myself. So that kind of set me aside, and as I was telling you, I didn't get to go to any family weddings because I wouldn't wear a dress, but right. I never regretted that, actually. And I never thought that I was wrong and they were right. Good for you. Uh but again, you know, I had really wonderful support of women who were not only lesbians but political about it, and so really really out there.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

And uh made all a difference in the world. So I think that was the first thing. Yeah. And I think in terms of pride, one of the things I realized early on, because I was researching something, and so I was reading old stuff about about queers in general and what it had been like, and and one of the things I and still feel proud of is that we have made it different for other people by you know setting a a different tone, yeah. All the people of that generation.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And so I feel pretty proud about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Mm-hmm. So would tell us about your story of okay, so you're you know you're 19, you're at university in Ottawa, Ottawa, right? Tell us tell us a bit about what happened when you realized you were a lesbian and then you went to see a counselor and well the woman I came out with was very, you know, had a regular psychiatry.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I had really nothing to do with psychiatry, but she thought I should talk to one to get some help in uh how to tell my family, which was the thing I was most anxious about. That was not a good experience for me. I I really got a couple of the first my favorite is this woman who the first thing she said to me was, Why do you want to look like a man? It kind of started off on a an unfortunate track, and it freaked me, both me and my parents. So things like when they insisted it that the only way I could get fixed, and they weren't specific. I knew I didn't want to be cured, and they kept telling that right from the start.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Well, I was just gonna add some context for folks. Um, so if we're you this is like 197 early 70s. So until 1973 in Canada, it was still considered a mental illness to be a homosexual. Canada did have sort of a law that said it was okay to be uh homosexual that Trudeau passed in 68 or 69, which um had very specific conditions. Like you had to be 21 and you could only be in your own home, or you couldn't be in public, et cetera, et cetera. So essentially, as a 19-year-old, you know, you were like susceptible to literally being arrested at 10. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

And the one I came out with who had also been my professor, so she was she was pretty holding her breath all the time. Sure. About whether we're gonna get caught.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Right. Because you were illegal essentially. Yeah. So then I know that you big part of your story is being institutionalized against your will and being medicated. Could would you tell us about some of that experience?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Their idea was that the fact that I didn't want to be cured was an indication of how depressed I was and how screwed up I was. And so then they pushed for shock treatments, which I had no idea really what that meant. But it was it wipes your brain, and so you can't remember things, you can't hold a job. I mean, you can't so it really changed my life, and and I obviously didn't need it. So I was in and out for a couple of years, and then I finally got out, managed to get a job, and and then I ran into this old professor of mine who was teaching a night course. She said, Oh, come to my course, it'll be fun. I'll give you an A. Just just come to the course.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So were it did you have to quit university?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Like, I did actually. I was in the middle of my second at the end of my second year. I tried to go back after uh after I was in Brockville, but I couldn't do it. I couldn't I couldn't even read a book, really.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Because of the shock therapy.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, and so it really does this weird wipe your memory kind of clean, which you sort of get over, but I mean I just kind of want to take a moment here.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

You were manipulated and tricked into being taken to hospital.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

And so were my parents. I mean, to be fair to them, they weren't looking to you know, they were very responsible, looking looking out for us and some professional, and our my family didn't have that.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Nobody went to a shrink, so there wasn't any kind of And do you think they were kind of like, well, the doctors are saying this, and so we're just following there because they know best kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

And I had always certainly been odd girl out in the family. I I took up more space than all the rest of them together, but that's the thing about being different. Families have to deal. But yeah, no, I uh actually my first serious clue. I don't know if I recognize it that, but I happened to be home one afternoon, and the rest of my family was out. I turned the TV on and the movie Children's Hour was on. I don't know if you know that movie, but it was written by Lillian Hellman. It's about these two uh teachers who run a school, and this little nasty kid tells her grandmother something that she saw them doing something inappropriate. So they get completely screwed. People pull their kid out, the people in the town are all kind of standing around staring at them. So I watched the movie and was just riveting and haunted because at some point Shirley McLean tells Audrey Hepburn that that's how she felt. And so then the final scenes are Shirley McLean hangs herself. Of course. The whole town is kind of just standing around. So I just I didn't kind of get it. Well, I I mean I got what they were hassling her about, and what I didn't get was the fact that it it stuck with me. It kind of haunted me as a as a as a plot. So I think that was kind of my first clue.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

And that I was different was certainly when I went to school, and I had a bigger voice, uh lower voice than most people. Also, when I'm stressed, it drops as a f a few octaves. So that doesn't help. No, and so I'd be in washrooms and the person would ask me and I'd say, No, I'm not a man, except it came out, no, I'm not a man, and then people would look at me like, Of course you are. Who do you think you're fooling? Yeah, sort of thing. So those were the kind of little things along the way, but it took me a while. It took me I was so relieved when I came out. I certainly never had any crushes on boys, and it certainly they didn't have any crushes on me. So yeah, that was a whole part of being a teenager that made me very isolated again before I found not only lesbians, but butch lesbians.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

So how did you manage to escape? I mean, did your family help, or how did you how did that period end of being, you know, medicated, locked up? How did that end?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Well, when I got out, I lived with my parents at first because and then I got this bachelor apartment and tried to get jobs, but because I couldn't think very well, I could only get pretty much manual labor jobs. And in a few of them, I just passed as a man because it was so much simpler.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So it was while that was happening, and I was just kind of by then at that point, then I had sort of my brain had started working enough to hold a job. Right. And it was while I had that job that uh I took this night course and I went to the pub. There was a woman who lived on my way home. I offered her a ride, she invited me in for a coffee, and I met my first political lesbian feminist, you know. And uh who's now writing a book actually about the times when we all hung together in Ottawa. It was very oh, I think I spotted one. Right. And you just kind of get invited to things, and then you found your people, and I certainly didn't think uh for the most part I realized that uh lesbians like butchers, in fact. Um we certainly didn't think we shouldn't be there. Right. So I think that's just kind of it was just like I feel like I was so lucky. And then when I moved here, I didn't really know anybody, but I knew Judy Lynn, and she introduced me to Nora Randall, and I got introduced to her in the first week I lived here. And my social problems were over because she knew everybody and everybody liked her, and she introduced me to everybody, and that was it. So I had a kind of instant social life. So really, once I got away from those normals, I did really well.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And things like being in washrooms. And my friends stood up for me. Dorothy was one.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

We were on the ferry and I was about to go in the washroom, and this guy started yelling at me. I said, Don't you go in there? I remember Dorothy just turning on this guy and saying, How dare you speak to my friend that way? And then she said, This cracked me up always. And furthermore, hey, isn't that Dorothy? Furthermore, you're scaring your children. So things like that. And people did uh stand up for me, speak up for me. But there were a lot that I was afraid, you know, and and I think a lot of witches fear the worst.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

You certainly had times where you were physically threatened.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah. I I got busted one night on the street because I looked like some by a bunch of police three cars stopped uh and that was terrifying because I I didn't know what they might do. But again, I I've I've been lucky after I was I don't know. Certainly once I was in my twenties. You found your people and your support support networks and yeah, and I was just really accepted for who I was, which I'm sure you know how how good that feels. Yeah, especially for the butches, yeah. Yeah. Did you know Eve Zaremba from Toronto? No. No. She was an activist and she wrote mystery novels and she ran a bookstore, and she just died recently, unfortunately. But she was one of my early mentors. We went out until lunch, and the the waitress came up to us and said, And what can I get for you, gentlemen? And I was like, that really hadn't happened to me. And I was there with Eve, who is so butch. Uh, I said, Oh, we're we're not gentlemen. And Eve said, We're not even men, and it's burst into this hearty kind of so that really stuck with me as uh what attitude to take. Right. Again, I had I had good mentors.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah. So let's let's talk about Stilsane, if you would. So uh maybe tell folks uh what that was all about. I know it was part of your healing process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But uh yeah, tell us about it.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

The whole process, like it was an art exhibit and the artics of it was was so liberating and so really I was made to feel if anything like special, certainly not like what are you doing here? And uh but the best thing about it was we had the show and the number, and then we had places where if you wanted to write comments, you could. And the comments were just that happened to me, or something like that. And so finding out at the art show how many women had been in one way or another uh affected by went to the wrong shrinks and were really or generally in some way or other, somebody tried to cure them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Oh, that sort of conversion therapy. Conversion therapy, yes. Describe a bit about the pieces in the art show a bit and just sort of how that came about and what it looked, because it's you know, we can't show it, so just to describe it a bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah, well, I had uh I sort of sort of was like writing as a hobby, not for anybody else. But as I came into being finding a lesbian community, I became sort of way more aware of what had happened. So it started out with me just kind of telling Chris Simmons some of my experiences and then some of them writing them because they got very upsetting kind of as I remember them. So I wrote this book and Chris Simmons said, I'd like to do a piece about your experiences. But once we started doing it, there were kind of more and more stories, and each story got anew until it went from one to twenty-seven. It was a pretty big, and it was at the You said it got to twenty-seven.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Do you mean pieces? So there was like body casts.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, and that was another thing that was kind of unusual and kind of different, and uh there was the stories.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So each one sorry, each one represented kind of a part of the story, yeah, right? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

There was one on shock, there was one on some of the just uh aspects of being in the nut house. And how you didn't tell anybody uh just seemed way too risky. And the same with sexual assault. Uh I felt like people thought I asked for it, you know, by challenging people or something. So there wasn't a whole lot of understanding or sympathetic that not that it's not horrible for anybody, but there was just so much nastiness back then. Now people are, you know, making movies on podcasts and uh not quite that and stuff, all of them. Just such a wonderful but as I said before, I feel proud that I helped make that happen by just pushing those boundaries, and I had a lot of support to do it.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Or and that exhibit was incredible and important, and then it became a book. Um it's not like you can't, it's not in circulation anymore, or still saying the book?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

No, it kind of ran out, it never got reprinted. It was uh it was printed by press gang who were a number of my friends.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

I worked there, so I think I volunteered there back in the day. Everybody did.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, everybody did. It's been a while now, it's been 30 years. We had a a party on the 30th anniversary, and oh yeah. So many people women came, which made me feel like I was certainly where I belonged. But I tried to be more of a mentor for other butches, but I I don't well, obviously I did so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

For me, you did.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

And uh I guess for other budding budding butches.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

You said something you think about if I was if I was gonna describe my my situation or my my representation, uh, it would be that um I've been allowed to become a proud lesbian. And that is really, even to this day, kind of though I I see sometimes in my neighborhood, a couple walking along the street, holding hands. Right. Talking intently to one another and completely oblivious. And I feel both uh envious and proud that if I had done that, I feel like that helped these women, but it was It was very funny to see them, I thought. Two women holding hands.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Right. So what's it like for you today? Like are do you hold Barbara's hand in public? Like what's it like for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

She has a much more public persona because she does a lot of work with with queers and and she did the first big trans case, which was a woman named Kimberly Nixon. Yep. And it was in the courthouse, and a lot of lesbians uh they demonstrated like caring signs and everything. I think those people but back then, you know, even lesbian feminists didn't know enough to accept trans people, and so it kind of affected it got everybody going, and like suddenly, somewhat years later, it was okay to be hostile and tell people up. But again, I got to see more than I would have really on my own. Though we did a lot of political. My first uh demonstration was to take back the night march.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, those were every year for years. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah. Oh yeah. Did you remember the demo at Joe's? Yes in? Two dot caught kissing in Joe's coffee place, and they got thrown out. Well, word got around within days. And the first Saturday after that happened, there was a kiss-in. And all these women turned up in front of Joe's and stood around kissing.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

And the the sunrise.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, that's where my entry was. Sunrise Pizza.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah. Well, in the theater on uh you must have had a demo pretty early in your uh if you were demonstrating out on uh No, I just came across it.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Like I just ran I was going to the theater to see a film. Right. And then I ran into all of you. And then you swooped me up and took me away, and that was it.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Like just kind of a luck by chance if you'd taken a different route or decided I'm not going.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

It would have happened eventually. It kind of obvious.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

But yeah. But I used to say I say to people, I was like, you know, the story of the duck or the little baby duck who's like, Are you my mother? Are you my mother? I was like, Are you my lesbian? Are you my lesbian? I just I just needed to run into somebody, and that was it. That's all I needed was like that that, oh right, these are my people. This is what I need, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

It just It was a welcoming crowd. That's one of the not-so grits of things about aging. The people around you die.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Some I brought a few pictures, and some of the pictures have other people in them, but or my thing about whom I I want to have a coffee with.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

They're they're not alive anymore, but who would you want to have a coffee with? Uh Leslie Feinberg.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

And um actually Lily Tonwood.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Oh my god, I just was I would have thought of that the other day, too.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

So loved to have a coffee with her or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And hey, you say you go swimming three times a week.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Like, do you have to deal with washroom stuff? For one thing, I go to Templeton and they know me. And even the other swimmers know me. Yeah. But also they have signs now in every community center tr for all the washrooms, transgender people. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

So even though sometimes people mistake it when I say, Oh no, I'm not a man, they're uh they're apologetic. And I say, Oh, that's okay, it happens all the time, and they're kind of relieved, and we end up having. So I haven't had that kind of uh but I used to. I can remember once being there, and this class of kids, maybe eight or nine from the local, I knew it was the cat because they were all in uniforms and they came from St. Francis de Sisi. And so when I first walked in, some of the kids looked kind of like curious, is the most I would say. And then the teacher came around and shrieked right out loud, so the kids on top, and she said, What are you doing here in the women's washroom and with all these children? And just kind of ripped. And I said, I am not a man. Oh, then she told me I was upsetting the children. I said, No, you are the one upsetting the children, not me. Yeah. And so is this really uh, but that kind of thing hasn't happened for a long time. And when it does happen, I don't find I think in the beginning, like people were both grossed out, but kind of embarrassed. They made that mistake. I corrected them, and a part of them felt embarrassed. And so it made it brought out the the nasty in them.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, people don't like to meet.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Oh, they say, you know, you don't look like any kind of real woman to me. Like just really people used to be just kind of let it rip. And I don't find people are like that. When I do, I always have a Dorothy to say. And furthermore. So good.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

I gotta remember that one. And furthermore, okay, how about some some fun things like what do you do first thing when you get up in the morning?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I turn on the TV and make a cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

And watch the news. First the Canadian, then the American.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

What's your favorite comfort food?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Comfort food. Ooh, my favorite is macaroni and cheese.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Do you make it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 27:39

I love it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I I like to think my friends request it when it comes to dinner. Like it's classic, and I think I have it. My secret is bacon in it. Bacon bits in the macaroni and cheese.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

If you ever want to know a good tip.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Mm-hmm. How about um favorite place to go in Vancouver? Or thing to do?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I go to the junction sometimes if they have, you know, readings. Uh and I got to do a reading there, which was pretty fun. Oh really? But I don't really uh we're kind of dull, so we're not we I spend more social time we have people over. Sure. Usually, you know, two or three at the most at a time. So or events like um like your movie. You know, that's kind of thing that we would go to, but our social life, I must say, is pretty limited.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Well, back in the day, right? There were all the the dike bars and lesbian bars and none of 'em. None of that.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

So my writer's group has uh which is called Quirky. It's uh queer old which old senior writers. And it's yeah, it's pretty fun. They have quite a range of stories and go to a lot or we're invited to a lot of kind of community type events.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

To do readings and things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah, I have a few times. I must say reading is not my favorite thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

No. This time. It's like to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, it's just great. But what kind of things do you write about? Partly about how the world has changed. Uh-huh. Sometimes that depends on the theme of the thing. One time I spent the whole time um talking about different episodes of mistaking, particularly mo washroom ones, which is the really big, I'm sure you found the really big place that gets gets people going. So I've been at things where people talk about that, about the history, the old days.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Some of which weren't so good. Except for that, you're not a lesbian. I have always found like support and camaraderie.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Among uh and an appreciation. And I think as butchers, you get if people are sensible, if anything, you get more appreciation because you're out there saying, like it or not.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

So yeah, like sometimes I say just walking outside every day is an act of resistance. Yeah. As ourselves. Anyway, just to wrap up a bit, why representation matters to you? I mean, it's kind of obvious, but like what what made you want to be a part of this, for example?

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Like what I kind of evolved into it. I mean, as soon as I had it, I wanted it. I didn't, you know, in the very early days, I didn't know there was such a thing. And then, as I said, a lesbian community. Um and then when I did, as I said, I I really lucked out on the social end. Not the first I I I deserved it though, because my first few years as a lesbian were just hell on earth. But it kind of got made up for because I never felt so welcomed as I did.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Well, thanks. Um thank you for being unapologetically you your whole life. Because it makes a difference. Makes a difference to many of us.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Thank you for including me in this, and uh really thank you for letting me be your mentor.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Thanks, Sheila. Thanks for listening to Mr. Gender, the show where we swap labels for lived experience and get curious about life beyond the binary. On Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, Mr. Gender Pod, webmrgender.com, email hello at mrgender.com. That's M-I-S-T-E-R. The doc not quite that is at notquite that dot ca. Free to watch at TELUS Originals, Optic TV, and Knowledge Network.