045 Leading with a Laugh: Culture and Change with Leah McKerrow

Can you lead with a laugh and still get serious results? Business consultant Leah McKerrow says not only can you—you must. In this episode, we explore the intersection of leadership, personality types, and the power of a positive work environment.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Empowering vs. Expert Leadership: Why your team holds the keys to success.

• Shaping Culture: How to use active listening to transform your workplace.

• Navigating Change: Strategies for embracing uncertainty with the right mindset.

• The Science of Fun: Why visual aids and humor actually improve memory and training.

Memorable Moments:

• "You don't have to be the expert."

• "What if it works?"

Connect with Leah: Leah McKerrow | LinkedInSubscribe for more: Don’t forget to hit the follow button to catch every episode on culture and leadership!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello and welcome to today's show. I'm Jacqueline Stockwell, CEO and founder at Leadership Through Data. I inspire and motivate information leaders across the world. Hello and welcome to the show. I am in New Zealand, so I'm interviewing some Kiwis uh whilst I'm in the Southern Hemisphere. So today I'm joined with Leah Macker Mackerie. Leah is the chief executive of North Chamber and a global consultant with over 24 years experience building businesses from the ground up. She she's an expert in leadership, a personality specialist, and believe it or not, she's done some stand-up comedy in Las Vegas. Leah spends her time helping organizations fix their workplace culture and navigating tricky challenges. Chamber, she acts as a voice for our local, for your local business community, making sure business owners have the support and the platform they need to succeed. Leah is here with me on the show. Her goal is to help um build better cultures and lead with high energy and fun. She's proof that you can get serious results while still having lots of fun along the way. And you're my type of lady, so I love it that we're here today. Awesome. And so you worked in banking, retail, and government, even though these industries are very different. What is the one thing every great leader must do well?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yes, yes. Well, it's an interesting story about when I joined banking because of course I didn't have any banking experience whatsoever. And I joined in the Treasury area, which is um the big finance money market space. And I thought an option was should I have lunch today or not? And then they told me it was a money market derivative, as if that helped me. So I think one of the things for me is that to remember is you don't have to be the expert when you're the leader. You just need to know who are. So, and in actual fact, what that does is it empowers your people and it ensures that you use their talent, their knowledge well rather than and and you therefore you can focus on leadership.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

That is such a good point because everybody thinks leaders should know everything. And actually, I think it's a really it's that showing that vulnerability element, isn't it? Actually, I don't know everything, but you do, and I'm gonna empower you to tell me as the leader to make those decisions. I think that's an insanely good point.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I mean, you need to you need to know the right questions to ask. That's the key thing. What is the question that you need to ask? And then who are the people that will know the answers? Agreed, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

So as Chief Executive of North Chamber, which I came into the office, I've been working there this week, so it was cool. You see so many different businesses. What is the busy the biggest mistake leaders make when they're trying to fix their company culture?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, and I think that word fix is probably the big challenge there. You know, we try we see it almost like a machine that we need to fix. And what we've got to realize is that company culture is made up of individuals, wireless units who come together. And so I don't think you can fix culture. You can change it, you can shape it, but in every culture something works. So I think it's a matter of actually ensuring that you know what that good stuff is and look to build on that. Um and I think that many organizations defer to the HR department. Oh, the culture's bad, can you do something about it? And they might put some nice posters on the wall or or do something. But actually, culture comes from the behaviours that happen within the organization. I always remember when I worked with an organization and they were trying to fix their custom. They wanted their people to be really friendly and welcoming. And yet when they got into the lift with the senior executives and the CEO, they never said hello. They didn't smile. And so the challenge with trying to shape a new culture is that our people won't necessarily listen to what you say, but they'll definitely watch what you do. Yeah, agreed, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

How do you so culture is a really big thing at all organizations, right? Um, there's like consultants that can come in and help with um change culture, can't they? Like how do you how do you know as a leader, how do you know you've got a bad culture if you don't know you've got a bad culture? Does that make sense? Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Well, you know what you don't know, because nobody's gonna tell you as the leader, right? Yeah, exactly. It's like, yeah, oh no, no, it's lovely working here. It's not. Well, I think it is a matter of really being open and and listening. I mean, you have to listen. I used to love going into organizations that I'd be working with and just sit in reception and watch. Watch how people walk through reception, watch how they talk to the reception people, watch how receptionists talk to people. And you'll start to get a bit of a feel for what happens around here. And so it is a matter of, I guess, trying to be as open as possible and once again going back to those people that you know and trust and asking the question, what's it like to work here? And that's why the prolification of culture surveys and stuff like that are quite useful. But they're only useful if people are really going to tell you the truth. Um and so if you do a culture and and and you get the results back and say, look at this, you know, 70% of people love working here, but you've only had a 25% response rate. You know, what do the other percent feel like? It's it it it's it's just it's a feeling. Culture is is a feeling, I think, as much as anything, not a science.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

So it's a people feeling then really, isn't it? Totally. It's uh it's as you say, it's managed by behaviours.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Um what is a b what is a bad culture as well? I'll give you a really interesting example. Have you ever shopped at Abercrombie and Fitch Finch? Yes. I know the brand. Yeah. Know the brand? Been into the store? Yes. Yeah. What's the feeling like when you go into that store? It's a bit dark and dingy. A bit there's lovely people hanging around, very nice, beautiful people looking very modern and very trendy. Not very friendly. And so you could look at that and say, well, that's a bad culture. But that's the one they've curated because that's what their brand is about. And so a bad culture in one setting might not necessarily be bad in another. It's what they are curating to actually deliver often to their brand. And the Abercrombie and Fitz brand is very modern, very young. Uh, I had a nephew who was even employed there because he was a a sort of a surfy type young dude. Yeah. And all he was asked for is stand in the corner and ignore people.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Bad culture. Oh, wow. And that's amazing that people actually buy into that brand then and buy buy the products if that's it's not my demographic. No. It wouldn't be my that's probably why I've never bought anything from there, if I'm totally honest, because I go in and I feel it's dark and dingy and not welcoming and kind of walk back out again. Um that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

You're not the target market.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

No, I can't imagine I would be. I'm too flamboyant for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

So let's talk a bit about change because culture and change kind of link together. They do. Change can be really scary for a team. How do you help leaders keep their staff calm and focused when things are shifting?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Look, it it is it is different. I mean, you know about the comfort zone, right? You know, when we're in a comfort zone, everything feels easy. As soon as start things we get ambiguity and stuff, we get that bit of feeling of uncertainty. And that's the sort of thing that we think is scary. Is it fear or is it just uncertainty? And I think that's that's the thing that uh to remember. In times of change, we want that feeling actually, because that's what spurs us to change. Kinsey many years ago did a study and found that 75% of change doesn't work, even after all this time. But when they looked at the ones that did, there were basically four things that were identified. And the first one was that the organizations got the mindsets right first. What is the mindset we need for this change? And that mindset might even be let's be curious, let's be open, and let's embrace that uncertainty. That might be a mindset. The second thing they found with the organizations where it worked was that they engaged with everybody collaboratively throughout the change. It wasn't one like one of those waterfall projects where everyone gets together and talks about what change they want, and then the project managers go away and say, We'll come back when we've done it. It's not like that. You need to engage everybody throughout the process with all of the great things and all of the not so great things, uh, but keep that communication open. The third thing that the the successful change did was they focused as much on what was working and the successes as they did with the problems. And you know what it's like going into a meeting. Everyone says, Oh, you know, that was that was a really good guy's right now. Let's focus on these things that went wrong. Why did we miss that deadline? We don't dig down into so why was that successful? How come that worked so well? And so those are sort of sort of things that we need to try and keep focusing on as well. And then the final thing they did was they built the capability of the people in the business as they went. So they didn't do it, you know, we've got change coming up next year, guys, we're gonna train you all this year so that you're ready. They tend to do it just before they needed that skill. Therefore, it was fresh. By actually actioning it, it meant that it was able to be put into place straight away, which meant that it was more likely to stick. So there are practices that leaders can do through a change process that will really encourage people to embrace that feeling of uncertainty. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I love that. So let's talk about so you often say that business is a team game. How can leaders get people who usually work alone to start collaborating and help each other?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah. The little the big C word collaboration. Look, you can't just tell people to collaborate. You know, they walk out the room, go, okay, you you need to collaborate on what? Right? They what they won't do it. They'll go, yes, boss, you need something for them to collaborate on. Which is why when you think about often and you go into organizations and you ask them, when did we work and collaborate best? They will often give two things. First of all, if they're a big retail environment or maybe a distribution shed, they'll say, at Christmas, when it's really hectic, everyone collaborates and jumps in and works together well. But we can't have Christmas every month. And the second time is during times of disaster and chaos. Somehow self-organizing teams happen, collaboration happens. Why? Because they've got something to collaborate over. It's very specific. And so in the day-to-day when we are wanting people to collaborate more, we kind of need to actually nurture that. And what we've also got to understand is that people collaborate with people that they're connected with. So helping them be connected, making sure that if we've got a team of of uh geographically distributed people that they come together occasionally to connect, to get to know each other, to laugh together. And then they are more likely to think about that person when they need some help. So collaboration then becomes a habit, but we need the conditions for that habit to form. Yeah, and that's building the relationships, isn't it? Build connection first and then collaboration.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Absolutely love that. So when an organization is in the middle of a big change, things can get like super messy. What is your best advice for a leader who feels stuck in in that difficult middle stage? And I know a lot of our listeners or information leaders have that. So partake your knowledge to us.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, yeah. My perspective, my perspective. Um it's because you mentioned before I'm an expert in leadership. There's no way I'm an expert. I don't I feel. I feel, I just have a perspective. Yeah, look, messy change, I love it. Love it. I do, I love it. Why do I love it? My personality type actually embraces it. And that's a thing to remember is that we all have a personality type and a preference. And some of us embrace change more easily than others. And so it is about understanding where and what what those differences are, and then being able to lean into them and help them understand the change from their perspective. I also am a great follower of a framework called the Kinevan Framework. Now you'll need to write that down because it's a Welsh word. It's C Y E F I N. Because if I hadn't spelt it, you'd never have spelt it that way. No. Kinefan. Definitely would not. Uh Kinefan. It's a um it's a what it's I said, it's Welsh. It's been made popular by a guy called Dave Snowden, and he talks about the world of ordered and unordered and the world of complexity and change. And I think that most or a a lot of change practitioners try to use a more complicated method of change, which is I use this process, uh, I've used it before in these organizations and these teams, and so I'll just put that exact process into the space as well, and then I'll plan it to the nth degree and then I'll implement it. People are not engines. We don't work like that. And so what needs to happen is when it's complex, and what I mean by that is when it involves human beings, you need to take a slightly different approach because human beings react to stimulus, and when they see something that has worked, they are more likely to look at that and think, okay, I can do that. And so therefore, it's more of a of a practice of making a decision about how you want the change to go, trying it out, reflecting on it and seeing has it worked or has it not, and then adjusting and then go again, and then go again. And so it's almost like that learning cycle rather than a project. We have projected change too much, and we need to pull it back and remember bring the people, engage the people, and they will find the best way to get through the change, not you as the leader. Because if you as the leader is doing it, when you leave, when you fall over from exhaustion, the rubber band comes back. But if you let them lead it, they will take it far beyond what you ever expected it to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Agreed. And I always say change management is a process for people. Change management is a process for people. It is. We've done a lot of personality types uh within the business, but also we are oh I'm encouraging our customers because they need to understand how to communicate with their organizations. Absolutely. So we've used the disc framework. Yep, great. Have you read the book Surrounded by Idiots?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Oh my god, it's so good. Um, it puts so I as you know, love colour. So it puts all the disc framework into colours, so red, uh, yellow, blue, and green. Yeah. And then it talks about the situations for each of the colour personality types and the dominant personality types. And I've actually found that a really good way for information leaders to build relationships with their internal stakeholders, their leadership teams, and anybody they want to get buy-in because they're actually communicating that way that they want to be able to do it. The audience wants it, exactly. The audience wants it. And you know, you've talked so much about change and culture, and I I think they're all people related processes, and I say it's a process, but it's, you know, they're just people related, isn't it? And that's one of the the things. So that's the gorgeous thing about it.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

It's a gorgeous thing because, you know, all of your team can contribute to that change, and then they own it. And then they're more likely to feel proud of it, and then they'll go again and get confidence from it. And I think that's that that's one of the magic things about leading well, is that you can you can actually shape and help people have better lives, enjoy changing. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

And you it and it's so rewarding when you see other people succeed. Yeah, exactly. Uh but let's not talk about mindsets, because you we're definitely growth mindsets, but um on the other hand, uh you're known for high energy and your time doing stand-up comedy. Um tell me about that to to end end the show today.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Well, yes, a comedy. Uh you know, I've I've facilitated a lot of workshops, etc. And I would often have the you know, the post-it notes at the end all of the Naves, oh, you know, you're so funny, you made us laugh. Have you ever thought about doing stand-up? Which I hadn't. But then I started I got online and I started doing a a couple of online workshops and it got to the point where it said, Right, now you've got to go and do it. And I stopped. I went, I couldn't do it. Uh but a couple of years ago I had to take some time out to find myself. Um and so I went and stayed with my girlfriend in Las Vegas. Uh we'd been friends for years, I and I had took two months out and I I worked from over there, but I thought, you know what? Nobody knows me here. And so I went to the comedy clubs and I and I did my routine, stand-up routine, which was very interesting in terms of the different sense of humour. Um I had a more corporate sense of humour, and of course I had a an accent which most of them couldn't understand. But for me, laughter is the fastest way to to to resonance with others, and it lifts you up, it shifts your mindset, it makes life more enjoyable, it can break a moment, that's a tense moment. And I think that when people walk out of a meeting or walk out of a workshop feeling better than when they walked in, I've succeeded.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yeah, agree. And I'm very, very, very much a line like that. Not done any stand-up comedy in Las Vegas. You should, you should. But uh do you know what? I probably would actually just give it a go. I like to give everything a go.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah. It can either be a really long three minutes or a really short three minutes.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah, yeah. But I just think like the element of fun, very much in our industry, we talk about information, we talk about data, we talk about privacy, and you know, it it can be a dry topic. And I'm very much of the view that we need, as people, as information leaders, need to have a bit of fun and inject that fun into the training and all the amazing stuff that we do.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

It lasts longer. Did you know that? So when when people are learning and there's moments of laughter, that learning actually stays longer. Our brains actually love that because it pinpoints it. So I think it's vitally important, particularly when you're talking about such interesting stuff like that as data.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah, agreed. And visual visual aids as well. Yeah, yeah. So the brain processes pictures quicker than it processes text. So that's right. If you use imagery and it's leadership for data, we use imageries for all of our courses. Exactly. It helps once the trainer's given the content that it helps with that memory recall. So it's it's it's a really interesting fact because people are like, Oh, I can't just put a picture up there. I've got to put a load of text and um, you know, get huge value out of it and stand there and read. And actually it's not, it's about thinking different, being authentic and trying to do something different that actually resonates. And a lot of the customers we've worked with, they've had huge res huge success. But just picking up on your point about comfort zones, they were uncomfortable to change the way that they previously delivered training, but had great result as an outcome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Um yeah, I think it's that thing that goes through your mind, you say, what if it doesn't work? And I think you've got to listen to the other voice that says, but what if it does? So, you know, it's that sort of yin yang, but it's really important. I had used to work with a gu with a trainer who would use PowerPoint, and then occasionally he'd flick it over and there'd just be a a puppy or a funny picture up there. Very random, you know, but it would make people laugh and then it'd take a segue and then move into something else, you know. Nice. Love that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Love that. Well, thank you so much for your time. How can listeners reach out to you if they want to know more?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

They can find me on LinkedIn, just Leah McCarrow. Really happy to connect with people. Uh, I'm deeply passionate about culture, change, leadership, and uh, and comedy. And as you can see, I'm not short of a few words, so I'm always happy to talk to people.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for listening to the journals of the information entrepreneur with me, Jacqueline Stockwell. I hope you found this episode inspiring and helpful and have some takeaway tips that can be useful to you. If you liked this episode, please like, review, and share it with your friends. Your support helps us reach more information leaders to stay inspired and listen to great content. Want to test out your strengths and weaknesses and measure it against our Empower framework? Please complete the scorecard. It's a great way to improve and evaluate your skills. You can find the scorecard at the end of the description of this podcast. Stay tuned for a new podcast every Thursday and remember to be bold, be brave, and be beautiful.