041 The Governance Myth: Separating Fact from Fiction in Modern IM

"Simplicity is the key"

In this episode, Jacqueline Stockwell sits down with Pieter Lokker, an expert in Information Management and Microsoft 365, to talk about why we struggle to manage our digital world.

If your organisation feels buried under too many files and complicated rules, this conversation is for you. Pieter explains why "saving everything" is a trap, how to get your team to actually enjoy using new technology, and where AI fits into the future of work.

• The Hoarding Problem: Why we feel the need to keep every file and how it creates big risks for businesses.

• Making M365 Easy: Why "simplicity" is the only way to get users to engage with new tools.

• The Human Side of Change: Why successful Digital Transformation is about listening to people, not just clicking buttons.

• AI & Innovation: How to use artificial intelligence to automate boring tasks and give your team space to be creative.

• Measuring Success: How to tell if your information strategy is actually delivering value or just ticking a compliance box.

• Mindset over Software: Managing information is a people process, not a technical one.

• Don't Over-Label: Too many rules lead to "data junk." Keep your governance simple.

• Authenticity Wins: Being yourself and staying positive makes professional changes much easier.

• Innovation Matters: Small "special projects" are the best way to test new ideas and foster team growth.

• [00:00] Common challenges in managing information.

• [02:56] Why we hoard data and how to stop.

• [05:31] Getting your team to actually use Microsoft 365.

• [08:21] How AI changes the way we handle data.

• [10:59] Tips for better communication.

• [13:49] How to encourage innovation in your team.

• [16:38] Navigating the "people side" of change management.

• [19:09] How to measure if you are winning.

• [22:02] Final thoughts and how to stay connected.

Information Management, Microsoft 365, AI, Change Management, Innovation, User Engagement, Data Governance, Compliance, Team Collaboration, Digital Transformation.

linked in: Jacqueline Stockwell ARIM, BA Hons, MSC | LinkedInPieter Lokker CIP | LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello and welcome to today's show. I'm Jacqueline Stockwell, CEO and founder at Leadership Through Data. I inspire and motivate information leaders across the world. Hello and welcome to today's show. I'm here with Peter Locker. He's a powerhouse in the world of business and information management. Peter specializes in one of the toughest challenges in modern workplace. So Microsoft 365 adoption and information management. He is the ultimate bridge between complex IT language and real-world business needs. His goal is to show us how to transform technical tools into organizational success by leading with innovation and a people first mindset. So welcome to the show today. I'm super excited. So let's just start cracking on. So when people talk about managing their company's information management, what is the most common wrong idea that they have?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Well, I think this uh thanks for inviting me, by the way, Shacqualim. I think the the the the the the the wrong ideas they have is that they want to keep everything. So they they're hoarding their information, they're hoarding their data. And it just means that uh you lose context, you lose ownership, you lose governance around those uh those those items. And uh and we identified that some years ago in in the company I work for, and and we try to solve that, which just takes time, it takes new IT uh platforms, take new processes, new policies, but also take the people by the hand and and force them to start in a different way, but force them in a nice way to start working in a different way and look at perspective that uh that's how to work with your with your information.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

And why do you think people hold on to information? Because all information managers say they don't want to get rid of anything. What is the biggest hold up? Is it the fear of deleting something and then my needing it again, or is there something else?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

So I always compare it to when I go to my attic and I have this room where I just stuff things in. And then once a year I go in that room, I open up the door and I look at it and think, well, let's let's clean it up. Let's clean it out. And I start cleaning it out, and then my kids come around and and my partner comes around and uh and they look at the stuff and say, No, but I want to keep this. No, but this is uh this I want to keep as well. So then after a day of discussions, we close the door and still that stuff is still there. And people do that the same with their information, they just stuff it because uh they don't see the the cost, the risk of compliance or non-compliance. They don't see that it can be used by AI, everything you keep. So let's just clean it up and and and try to uh take it uh to to a certain hygiene level.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Nice. So we're all gonna come and clear out your attic so we can clean out our organizations.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

But don't touch my touch.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

I love that, I love that. So let's talk about Microsoft 365 adoption. You've done a lot of work around that area with the organization that you work with, and I know you've spoken on the international stage about some of the things you've been doing. So, why do so many projects using tools like Microsoft 365 fail to be used properly?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Well, the short answer again is because they don't work for the end user, and that's a bit unfair because they just need to start using them, but you need to help them in using that. So in my company, there was a huge change process for uh I wouldn't say 80,000 people, but say for 10,000, 20,000 knowledge workers, we we implement um, we implemented uh sensitivity labels, uh record labels in the system, and people had to work in a different way, and yeah, you just have to help them there, and that cost a lot of time. Um yeah, I think that is what that you need to do, and why it's why it fails, because you don't have the right message for them. That there's no incentive to s for them to start to use to start using the tools in the right way.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Nice. So what is the one thing you always do to make sure it works?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Uh keep failing.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Keep failing, and I love that. And why do you keep failing? There's a golden nugget there, Peter. Why do you keep failing?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

No, but I think that's how you see how you keep on learning as well, and it helps you in improving. So that's also what I tell my team. Go and work on 10 or 20 items, and only two will be successful, but learn from the failure, especially in the in in in the AI era where we are in now. Just do it. But feel fast, and then you will learn from it, and you will not make the same mistake.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

I love that, and that is why it's a golden nugget. So absolutely sensational, Peter. So you just talked about AI. So, how will new smart smart technology like AI change the way companies organize and look after their information?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

So there are a couple of way ways there. I mean, um I don't have the the the the glass ball in front of me. I don't know what the holy grail is. But when you look at uh I am an AI, um and I look at the company that I work for, we look at um one automation. Use AI to automate processes to make people more productive, they can spend time in a different way. Um you can look then at auto-tacking or making sure that automatically you find the personal private information in your in your stack of content. I think also it will help you with reducing the the storage or doing storage optimization, making sure that you only keep what you want to keep. And what else? Yeah, there's so many things. I mean, you can look at um uh AI bots that help you in finding the right uh policies and rules within your your your environment. That's also where we're looking at. So there are many, many uh examples I can give, but uh let me stop here and see uh if you want to go to a specific angle here.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I think it's I think it's really great kind of what what you've said there. And I think it's it's a real challenge now, isn't it? Because if you as you said right at the start, if you're not deleting, ai takes on that information, and then all the technologies um that are coming out change the way.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

So what you see in my company is that we we we we record we do label records, which is really good. But people are over labeling, and it just means that um we keep too much of stuff that we don't want to keep. And I will tell you a little bit of a secret, which I might not be able, I I don't mention the company I work for, but there was one of the projects that uh we were looking into auto-tagging. There was a pizza menu of a local pizza place that was tagged for 99 years. Well, I'm quite sure it's not a record, and I'm quite sure that in three years' time either that company is bankrupt or uh or they change their menu. So we're just keeping stuff we don't want to keep. That's that's the basic uh that we're we're we're looking at here.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Just like your attic.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, we have to help people with it.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

We do have to help people with it. So you work across quite a wide audience and you act as the link between the business people and IT. Can you give us a quick example of a time when you translate the business need into tech talk and save the project?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I think that's a very difficult question. But I'm just going to give you a random example of what I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I was working for a research and development department. So people that were doing deep innovation in technology, but not IT technology, but uh what can I say manufacturing innovations. So they invited me because I had to their team meeting and I had to talk about uh information management and the fact that we were going to throw away their valuable data uh after three years if they don't uh record it as a as a record. So I I walked in a little bit early to that team meeting, and there were like 40 or 60 people in that that meeting, and they were talking about all kinds of technical stuff, and I was just thinking, what are these guys talking about? It was a huge discussion, a lot of energy, and and I was just thinking, what what are they talking about? What what is this manufacturing term, whatever? And then um after 15 minutes or so, it was my turn, and I plugged in my laptop and I put on my presentation and I started to talk about the information management and uh and and how we had to record our records in the right way, uh making sure that we manage our digital assets in the right way. And I saw their faces, just one, half of them turned white because I was going to delete all their valuable stuff, and the other ones were just looking like, what is this guy talking about? They didn't understand what I was talking about, so I really had to make the switch in what terminology I use. Is it IT or is it technology? Does this end user understand me? And also I was trying to identify people that were nodding their heads, so I wanted the supporters as well to speak up. Um, yeah, it's just what that's what you have to do to make that change. I hope it gives you a little bit of an answer to your question.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, and I think it's really important because when we look at information management right now, we talk about EDRMS implementation, right? We know that, but end users don't know that. They all they want to know is that you can find documents 60% or 80% quicker as an end user, right? But also when you're selling it to senior management, they don't know our big fancy words, right? So it's the same outcome to them. You should you're changing the language to suit your audience, and I think simplicity is the key. So if you can explain it to your kid, I don't know if you've ever done that test pizza where you try and explain what you do to your own child and see if they understand, because the bigger words you use, the less they understand. And I think it's a really, really good technique to give you the baseline of what language you should be using. And I I think some people might get, oh, well, you're talking to me like I'm stupid. Well, actually, I'm not. I'm talking to you in plain, simple English that will connect to your uh emotions.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, what so I will I also have that with my parents. They say, So, how's your career going and what what do you do now? So I try to explain, and and every time I have to explain because they don't understand, they're from a different generation, and it's just so difficult to explain, even in simple language, because they they've never been there.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Have you tried storytelling?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

We talked about it before, yeah. It's a very strong tool through an instrument to use. Yeah, so I used it for uh leadership engagement, yeah. Making sure that they understand what information management is from a business angle, and why they should put some effort in there and and make it important for their part of the business.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Agreed, agreed. And I love the fact that you utilize storytelling because you and I've been friends for a while now, haven't we? And I'm always saying to you, use stories to to create pictures in in people's minds. And I think just goes back. I've had a similar conversation with my parents about what I do. And the easiest explanation I say is do you have a computer? Do you use word? Do you save it a file? Do you then save it into another file? Okay, and then it's easy for you to find things. Well, we do this on a big level with other people, so it takes them to a place that they're comfortable in understanding, and and it kind of paints that picture, and that's the only way I've been able to get them to explain what we do.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

That's a really good one because uh my parents have 120,000 pictures from when I was a baby till till till now, right? Last Christmas. Yeah. So so I will use that, I'll talk to them. So, how do you manage that? Yeah, uh, because they're managing that, I know, because they they cluster it, they they put it in, they put metadata on it. So I I will do that next time. See if they then understand my my work.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Fantastic. Thank you for it. You're welcome. I'm I'm happy to help and and help all the listeners as well. So um how so whenever I speak to you, Peter, you're always very innovative and you're always very kind of creative. So I want to talk about sparking ideas here. So, how do you get your teams who work on technical rules and organizational rules to still come up with new and creative ideas?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Well, I always tell my team members that that you have to have a uh a special project, a secret project you need to work on that gives you energy and also helps driving new innovative processes within within your business or the business they support. So I give them time to do that. That's one. And two, you also have to work together with the business to spark innovations. So in my company, we have an I am value lab where we jointly with the business look at new technology and innovations and really start looking at what is the business case, what is the business value we're trying to achieve here. And they're there's short iterations that we do, say it's two or three months, and then we look at the result, and then we look, okay, is this scalable or what did we learn from it? And we just go or we continue with the iteration and and and make it scalable, or we just stop it, but we learn from it. And I also make the the business responsible for partly responsible, so we're jointly responsible for it, not only for the budget, but also the way of how we're delivering it. So we we just own it together, and that really helps it when you want to um to scale it up in the organization or start selling it to other parts of the business.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I love that word, selling it to other parts of the business. Um that that might be fair later on. I'll pick you up on that one. One of the things I wanted to ask, just as you said, you said you ask your teams to have a special project. Now, do you find that some staff members find it easier to have an innovative mindset?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Um Yeah, there there is a difference, and it's just difference person to person. Um, and you just have to give them time. So some will just start sparkling, sparking 10, 20 ideas on the spot, and others just will be quiet, but you I know that they will come back to me with with three good ideas that they want to work on. So you just have to give them time. Everybody is different.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Everybody is different, absolutely. That's what I was uh hoping you would say. So when you're talking about these new innovations and you said that they go to the book uh one of the areas and then you take on the idea. So when you're introducing a big change, so if you decide that an idea is good and you introduce a big pain, uh big change, some people uh push back. So what is your best way to convince people who are strongly against the change?

SPEAKER_01 14:41

I just leave them alone. They're just not willing. So you have to work with the willing people to get everybody behind you. That's the that's the simplest answer to to give. But that's not really fair because what you need to do is again, you have to have the right story in place. So the storytelling is very important, but you also have to have the right governance in place. And in the company I work for, we have a very strong uh top-down governance where senior leadership gives empowers us to roll out the policies and tools to protect our license to operate, but we also listen to the end user, so it's also a bottom-up approach that we have. So you also have to listen to the end user. So, as an example, two years ago, we did a user experience survey with 4,000 people, where we reached out to them via survey, asking all kinds of stuff on how they work with their information, what went well, what went wrong, what would they like to improve. And the second step was that we were clustering that with ideas, and we would work in in 10 or 12 um small groups to see, okay, what can we change here? And that you do with the with the willing people, but also with the people that are reluctant to come with the to go with the change.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think people reluctant for change might not feel that their voices are being heard. So it's about having those conversations with them and and including with them. And I always find with the IM you can split um thing people into three groups. So people that get IM, people that are halfway in the middle, and then people that aren't there and that have that resistance, and they're the ones that you kind of need to focus on because the other two, one's halfway, one's already in, it's that's where you need to put the energy.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And you can also use the compliance stick because that's what we did in the beginning. So we have to be compliant, not to lose our license to operate. So you have to do it. And senior leadership tells you, and it's not the best message to do because people will be really reluctant, still reluctant to do it. They they will be stressed trying to push back. But if leadership says so, then yeah, I'm sorry, we just have to put it to these policies through our system.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, it's it's hard, isn't it? Because then when it comes to change management, people feel it's been forced on them. So that has an impact on their well-being, it has an impact on their job roles as well. So it's just trying to find the right balance whether you can get change agents in, external change agents to support or have those particular conversations if that's part of your your job role.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Luckily, we we we were able to um to do a lot of change, hand holding, cons, uh, transformation processes in place in the in the different businesses. So uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, it's very much change management is very much a people people process. It's a people related process.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

So if I'm a change manager, so I'm going to say something uh that maybe the IT the hardcore IT people don't like, but but doing an IT change, the IT part, the platform is really easy. It's just a checkbox and then it starts working. But if you want to have the end user to work, there's no magic checkbox on the end user. So you really have to manage and help them there.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Agreed, agreed. So I want to dive out into these golden nuggets that you keep on talking about. So when you're problem solving, can you share a time that you had to jump in and solve a big unexpected problem by yourself?

SPEAKER_01 18:04

I have a very strong team around me or a natural team around me. So we always do this together. So if you look uh within information management, I can rely on subject matter expertise that I don't have. So I'm very fortunate with that.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

I led you to a question of where you problem solved, whereas actually there's no I in team, is it? So when you're definitely working in the organization that you work with, you'd have to lean on other people. And you definitely lean on other people for different skill sets as well. So if you've got a problem, it's kind of all hands-on-the-deck and support it going forward, isn't it? So how do you I love the way that we talked about this previously? How do you measure success within your organization for your information management strategy?

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yeah, so the first couple of years we looked at the compliance figures. So are we getting better in managing our information in a compliant way? So do we expose confidential uh material to a to a bigger to a bigger group, or do we have most confidential where it should not be stored? As an example. Do we store uh personal uh data on mortgages, insurances, or or credit card uh transactions too long, or do we do we keep it? So that was the compliance angle, and that's quite easy to measure. But it doesn't work anymore because we're as a company we're really good in our compliance figures. So now we're moving into do we add value with the information that we keep, and do we add value in the information that we use in our business processes? And then you look at yeah, value calculations or articulations uh where you show that the that the business is more productive, and that's very, really, really hard. Or when when investment on uh on an IT project really helps bottom line with the with the business business budget or the or the business finance. So that is really hard. And um and we had some external help on that to implement a uh an information management value chain where we really start measuring from the start, where we prioritize our ideas and our projects to we're going to execute it, and then we're going to measure our success, we're going to adjust the process in there, and then at the end we do an evaluation and see what did we learn from it? So it's it's really we're measuring our success and value that we deliver uh for the business, and that is still something that we're we're implementing, and I'm just hoping that it will really help us in in getting the business on board in all the changes we do.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Amazing. I think it's sensational. Thank you. Looking back over your career, what non-technical skills turned out to be the most helpful for you now in your role?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I'm going to give a really simple uh answer here. Be yourself. I think that's that's what it is. What you see is who I am. There's no no border around it, and and that generates trust. I mean, you still have to bring the subject matter expertise, but if you can bring that with a smile at the right time or with a good question at the right time, it really will help you in in making information management management better in your organization or your business.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Agreed, and a good attitude as well, because sometimes it's really hard for us, and you can feel the pressures, can't you? Where you keep you know, keep people can't say no and you get knocked back, and you know that can have an adverse effect on your mental health and well-being. So, yeah, always smile when you present something, it it can say something different. But a hundred percent, like a thousand percent, be authentic, be yourself, bring yourself to there, don't copy anybody else, just be you. Um, it was absolutely sensational to have you on the show today, Peter.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Thank you very much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

You're welcome. Keep being bold, keep being brave, and keep being beautiful. How can listeners reach out to you if they want to chat some more?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Uh LinkedIn. That's the best to do. Yeah. And I will make sure that uh I will end. Or any question that they raise or or any uh um connection request.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Amazing. Um Peter and I will both be in Baltimore for the AIME conference in April. So I'm excited to see you there. So thank you so much for your time. It's been amazing. Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Thank you for listening to the Journals of the Information Entrepreneur with me, Jacqueline Stockwell. I hope you found this episode inspiring and helpful and have some takeaway tips that can be useful to you. If you liked this episode, please like, review, and share it with your friends. Your support helps us reach more information leaders to stay inspired and listen to great content. Want to test out your strengths and weaknesses and measure it against our Empower framework? Please complete the scorecard. It's a great way to improve and evaluate your skills. You can find the scorecard at the end of the description of this podcast. Stay tuned for new podcasts every Thursday and remember to be bold, be brave, and be beautiful.