036 A Year in Review: People, Policy, Purpose with Andrea McIntosh

It’s our birthday! 🎈 Join Jacqueline Stockwell and Andrea McIntosh as they celebrate one year of the People, Policy, Purpose podcast. In this "Greatest Hits" reflection, they dive into the heart of what it means to be an information leader today.

From overcoming "imposter syndrome" to the importance of storytelling over policy-quoting, this episode summarizes the most powerful lessons learned from a year of interviewing the best in the business.

Key Takeaways:

• Human-Centric Leadership: Why credibility comes from lived experience, not just theory.

• Breaking the "Gatekeeper" Myth: How to move from saying "No" to saying "Yes, but..." to make data safe and workable.

• Mental Health & Boundaries: Managing the "mental load" and the "funnel" of urgent requests.

• Professional Development: The rule of 2 hours a week to keep your mind growing.

• The Power of Community: Why building a network (your "tribe") is essential for survival in lone-worker roles.

Episodes Mentioned & Featured in Our Top 10:

• Ellie Blore on vulnerability and self-awareness.

• Emma Godfrey on career paths starting in customer service.

• James Powell on learning from mistakes and the "PD Mix".

• Tash Whitaker on relatable storytelling.

• Georgina Lee on the loneliness of the DPO role.

Resources:

• Learn more about us: Leadership Through Data | Information Management Training & ConsultancyRecommended Reading: Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson

• Subscribe: Don’t miss an episode—hit the subscribe button to join our community!

Timestamps:0:00 – Happy 1st Birthday!2:15 – The "People" behind the roles5:30 – Moving from "No" to "Yes, but..."8:45 – Dealing with the loneliness of Information Governance12:15 – The 2-hour-a-week professional development rule16:45 – Overcoming Imposter Syndrome & the Learning Curve20:00 – Mental Health & Setting Boundaries23:30 – The Power of Storytelling25:00 – Final thoughts & the Filing Cabinet Cake!

Do you want to EMPOWER yourself and your organisation? Complete our online quiz to find out where your personal strengths and weaknesses are and where you should focus your information management efforts in your organisation.⁠ https://lnkd.in/eE4Bt8K7⁠

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello and welcome to today's show. I'm Jacqueline Stockwell, CEO and founder at Leadership Through Data. I inspire and motivate information leaders across the world. Hello and welcome to today's show. Now, today's show I don't have any new guests. I have Andrea McIntosh, who is Leadership Through Data's general manager for global operations, uh joining me for a one-year review. Excellent. So we're doing balloons. Kate can fill it, what's going on, Jackie? Uh so it's our birthday. So it's not my birthday, Andrea. It's the podcast's birthday, which is why I brought you into the studio. Because I thought it would be a really good, nice idea to kind of look past, uh look back at the year of all the amazing people that we've had on the show and talk about the ones that have had the best ratings, really. Awesome. So basically a greatest hits episode. Yeah. But with heart, right? With heart, with heart, definitely with heart. Uh and it's like Jackie Cheek. Nice. Love that. Right, so let's get started. So one of the shows that's really kind of drawn out in everything is around the people. Um, and I'm really passionate around making sure that the people are heard, people are seen, um, professional development is brought forward. And it's just a reminder that we're actually people behind the role, we're not just the role.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Nice. So if I recall, um, I think one of your guests, Ellie, was talking about that it's not me, it's what I do. So that came through quite strongly.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah, exactly. And that thing came through with Emma too, so Emma Godfrey, and that was around her career path that didn't start in data protection, it started in customer service, dealing with human having big feelings. But I have seen that across all the podcasts of all the people that I've interviewed, none of them have actually started out in data protection, information management, or records management. We've all been in kind of service type roles before we've kind of got into the position and then just started to love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Oh, that's really interesting, eh? Because um, when we think about our roles in the governance career path, some of those things that we do, like customer services, Emma said, it's a bit like a boot camp for getting into or stepping into that governance role. So, you know, you learn that empathy and you learn looking at patterns um and yeah, how to not cry in the toilet at 3 pm as well before that pressure.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

I think I did that quite a bit in my uh complaint management role too. So let's look at facts and it creates that commodity that I've been where the mess is. Credibility, it's not theory, it's lived experience.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, for sure. And um, I think it was James as well on one of your podcasts that we see that thing from a different angle as well. So 10 years in records management, James I think volunteered with scouts and working with young people. So he's not just a digital records manager, you know, it's that community-minded, list-driven approach as well. And I think that's really critical for our profession is that community-mindedness.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, and when we talk to people like that, it changes the whole energy of the room. Suddenly, governance isn't a red tape, it's people. We're here.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

We're people. Spoiler alert, the information belongs to the people, right? So it should be all about the people.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So let's talk about gatekeepers. So we don't want to be the person that says no, and I think that is a continual theme around all the episodes that you know, information management privy officers, privacy officers, we are seen to be saying no. And in one of the episodes I really liked it was if, I think it was with Tash, if you can do this, if. I want to talk about the no problem. So the biggest myth in our world is that we always say that.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Absolutely. I mean, I've been in my roles, I've been called a blocker, uh, you know, the roadblock in projects. So for some of us listening to this today, they've probably been called the same thing, and they're probably gonna get it sometime today as well. You know, that's you know, that's the problem, is that whole no problem.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, and Emma now this in the episode that we did together, she said that you can say yes, but and work around the problem. I mean, the goal isn't to shut everybody down, it's to make it safe, make it lawful, and make it workable, really.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's a tough thing to do when you're in a compliance role to say yes and not feeling confident that you've shut down all that risk. But the key thing that it requires there is that emotional intelligence. So, you know, thinking about the people in the room, because people don't hear risk management, they basically hear you're ruining my day. And that's where self-awareness comes in, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

So Ellie went deep into that on the podcast. The words you use absolutely matter. So people remember how you made them feel, and being willing to say, I got that wrong is such an unrated leadership move, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, one of the biggest things that you need to feel the courage about is to say, I got that wrong. So doing that apology piece is so powerful. So I'm the governance person and I'm also a human. And what that's gonna do is it's gonna build that trust. So, you know, build that trust with your stakeholders as well. Yeah, and you're talking about trust, and trust is everything.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So without trust, people hide things, they don't tell you about incidences, they don't ask questions, and they don't report near misses.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

And then we all have to scramble around and deal with that panic later, right? And then that erodes trust for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

So the message across the episodes is don't be the scary oracle, be the kind of safe landing, really.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Nice, I love that. So another theme that came up, Jackie, you know, like when I've looked at the podcast and reflected on the work that you've been doing with the participants there, is there's often that loneliness theme that comes through. You want to have a chat about that?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, and I think that is definitely a theme. So the majority of the people on the podcast are kind of lone workers, and Emma had said being a D DPO can be a lonely place. And I know Georgina Lee had said the same thing as well, and you kind of get that feeling because it's a lot to the job is massive to run it on your own. Having a team makes it one better, but it's a one-person team, it's huge responsibility, and everybody expects you to know absolutely everything.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, they do. I I've certainly experienced that. And then people around you are surprised when you actually say, Hey, I'm not a lawyer, I can't know your entire industry regulations. And I certainly found that in local government. And the trick there is that we need to keep repeating that message. We need to work together.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of echoed throughout the themes that community is not optional. I think Eddie was talking about community is not optional. She literally described being building a network of data protection officers online to bounce ideas and stay safe. And I know Satash in one of the webinars that I did, in one of the podcasts that I've done, and they also have a community of data protection officers. So if you are on your own in an organization, make sure you get part of that community.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah. It's it's that whole concept of the village or the tribe. So, you know, having that village at home, but your tribe at work. And it's, you know, it's not fluffy. This isn't just, you know, patting people and giving them hugs. It's about survival and it's about, you know, doing the best that we can with everybody involved.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

And I think one of the key things that's sort of draws out to me is James Powell's podcast. And he highlighted that to speak to people who've done it before. So if you've been, if you're in that role, talk to somebody who's done something before and learn from their mistakes. Because so you don't have to make the same mistakes. So we air our vulnerability as leaders to help other people not make the same mistakes. And that, as you said, builds trust, but it builds relationships that last for months and years.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah, great. So, you know, that that whole concept of the secret to thriving in these roles is don't do it alone. Which is quite, you know, it's it's quite hilarious because our roles are often set up like we're supposed to be lone wolves. You know, we're often in the back room or you know, not at the seat at the table, but let's not do it alone. That's the key message, I think. Yeah. Lone wolves with legal risk, right? I see a coffee cup with that on it, Jackie.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

So let's get practical. Two hours a week in professional development. Now I actually think this is very, very achievable, but others do not. Um, because you really have to kind of make that time in your calendar and then stick with it. And I was absolutely blown away when Emma said she actually does it weekly because she talked about accessibility, she talked about the blogs, the sort of webinars and kind of all the topical things that she does just to keep her professional development up, which I just thought was absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, and that's a big thing, right? So that accessibility in learning, you know, that creates better outcomes because not everyone is equipped to read, you know, long legal jargon documents. So we need to make it accessible because p when people can't access the knowledge, that's when mistakes happen. So making sure they can have access to that knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, great. I do love accessibility because you've got to make sure it's right for everybody and everybody needs to learn data protection, privacy, records management. You need to make sure you have it in um different formats. So James gave a really useful professional development mix, which I quite liked as well. So he looked at training courses, he does blogs, he speaks to relevant consultants, he goes to conferences, and then he reviews the Microsoft documentation. Um but he said the most useful thing is just to talk to people who have been through it, which is the same thing. It's like those case studies, it's taking people on those journeys, it's learning from mistakes, but also taking that advice as to what's best practice.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think one of the things that we miss in formal training is those messy bits. You know, it's like do this, do that, but we're missing the messy bits, and they're the ones that we need, the mistakes, you know, the the conversations, the storytelling around the mess in between the training. Yeah, you don't have to pay for it.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

There's so much free resourcing out there if you want to invest in yourself. So there's books, podcasts, LinkedIn articles, Power21, scorecards. Um, there's a wide range of things um as well. Obviously, you get better quality with payment of um training or professional development methods, but um, yeah, there's a wide range of things that you can um utilize.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

And that's pretty much our vibe, right, at Leadership Through Data is we've got so many offerings and such a mix of what we do. And you know, it's that whole learn it, translate it, make it human, but make it memorable. So I'm really proud of what we do in that space, Jackie, that it's not just you know bespoke training delivery.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, great, because it's online, e-learning, blended learning, live learning, and a wide range of different things. And for anybody listening, my rule is still two hours a week. That's it. Put it in your calendar, protect it. It is your time to grow your mind just like you water your flowers, not in the winter though.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

You know, it's it's a meeting with your future self, right? So you're actually creating a meeting for your future self. So I 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. And that kind of brings me on to my next topic, really, is around confidence imposter syndrome. Um, because you'll never know everything. But if you don't actually invest in time in professional development, you'll stay in that kind of um, there's a learning curve where you start off um in your comfortable zone and you kind of work around the curve and then you end up as an expert. But then when you end up in an expert, you then go back into your comfort zone. Right in the bottom, the curve is where you need to focus your attention, where you come out of your comfort zone and you grow into a Pacific, really nice learning zone, but you don't want it to be full of anxiety or it be too much, because then you'll just freeze and you won't learn anything. So it's got to be softly, softly as you dip into the curve and then you go up to expert. Guess what? When you hit expert, you come back to comfort zone. And I'm saying that because professional development allows you to increase your mind, but it allows you to increase your confidence, and increasing confidence will help you deliver more and more within your organization. And confidence was a huge theme throughout all of the podcast services this year.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah, if I recall, James, one of your guests, talked about this um as confidence being a real challenge for him. So, you know, stepping into a role with that impact and risk, you know, that long-lasting lens on that. And he talked about um the training giving him grounding, but the confidence actually came, and this alludes to your curve there, Jackie, is the confidence came when he started applying it and then getting feedback on what he was applying it. So that whole, you know, seeing it work, seeing it in action is critical there.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

And he also admitted his mistakes. So he was like assuming people understood record management terms, and that that's what he assumed people had understood. So he adapted his language, reset assumptions, got feedback, and then improved on it. So it was becoming more and more simple for people to understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah, and um, you know, just reflecting on the curve thing as well, is that you know, you do a course, you feel ready, then real life happens, and um, you know, that's where that imposter syndrome kicks in, and you think, Oh, I know nothing. So I think um Ali talked about that in her podcast.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, and then her CEO CEO said something that just freed her, you're never gonna know everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Nice, nice. How soothing is that sentence? You know, how grounding and soothing is that sentence? Because you know, that expectation to always be the oracle is quite heavy and crushing. So that's beautiful. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

And what I loved is that she reframes the expertise. Not knowing everything doesn't mean you're incompetent. It means you build trusted connections, so you know where to get the answers. And that's leadership to me, really.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, it's leadership. Um, and it's also that humility. So, you know, what makes people trust us more is that you know, we become the person who owns it, um, and we're humble in the same process. So, yeah, that's where we nice.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

And one of the other themes, and I think it's really important to acknowledge within this podcast, is the mental health of information leaders. Uh, because our jobs are absolutely huge. Um, from a data protection officer, everyone else is urgent, becomes your urgent, and actually that's not correct, and that shouldn't be the way. Um, obviously, if a data breach, you need to do to deal with it, but um, there are some elements of boundaries and mental health. We can talk about all these roles, but we should also be talking about that mental load that is on that person.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a bit of a mix there. Um, we we've got a big load of work, but also some of the information that we are dealing with is quite sensitive and you know uh it can be quite triggering some of the stuff that we're dealing with. So, you know, thinking about here in New Zealand, the abuse and state care records inquiry. So I think Ellie talked about the the funnel metaphor, and that's gonna stay with me because I really enjoyed that. So the output stays the same as the input that changes. So it's not, you know, if too much is pouring in, then that funnel is gonna overflow. So we have to manage the inflow, we need to delegate, we need to prioritize, and we need to ask for help as well when we need it, not just feel like we're battling that alone.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

And she modelled boundaries beautifully, I thought. Because when I asked her about her biggest mental health challenge, she actually said to me, I'm not sharing that publicly because her children's stories are part of hers. And and I actually thought that that was a really sensational thing to do, certainly on a on a podcast as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Wow, that's pretty powerful, eh? Human invulnerable without oversharing. So I guess the key thing there is, you know, vulnerability isn't exposure. If you're vulnerable, it doesn't mean that you have to expose everything.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

And um I recall that both Georgina Lee's and Emma's podcast also talked about switching off being quite hard, especially when you work from home, because when you're in the office, you travel to and from, so you kind of get that switch-off period where you're at home, you're straight out of the door, and then straight into home life. And the temptation is to open the laptop on Sunday afternoon, and the mental load of wanting the organization to do the right thing, and have you having to accept that you just can't force it to happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah, that's that whole thing around, you know, that that saying of pick your battles, right? So I always see picking your battles as wisdom, otherwise you're gonna burn out, you're gonna be fighting everything constantly every day. So pick your battles um and yeah, stay calm.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And I think pick your battles kind of just takes me on to the last kind of segment of this is that communication, right? So we information leaders always talk about the jargon or the kind of throw technology at us, you know, and we kind of talk about that. But actually, when we're communicating to senior managers and end users, we should be using really simple language so they can actually understand and buy in to what you're asking them to do. And just kind of an example for that, if you're talking about an EDRMS implementation, you should actually be saying we're um implementing a software that will help you find documents 80% quicker, right? So there's a benefit to that as well. And it's just that change of communication, and that has come up consistently through all the podcasts that I've done this year.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah, uh, if I recall one of your masterclasses as well that I've joined you on, Deckie. Um there were a few people on that masterclass, and we went through some of that language change. Um, and you could see the people you sort of go get that aha moment. So communication comes up everywhere. You know, we have to change our language depending on the audience. So that's one powerful thing that I learned. IT wants the detail, but you know, our users just want to know how it affects their day.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, definitely. And I think I talked to Jenny and Charlotte um in one of the podcasts about the colour communication profiles and so the disc model, which is, you know, 100% I'd highly recommend that. And Surrounded by Idiots, which is a sensational book that kind of takes the colour profiles into sort of really relatable and simple understanding that you can actually start to work out how you need to communicate with shareholders and end users as well, just to kind of get those communication flowing. So you can actually then start to get things driving through the business.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, that kind of ties into that whole storytelling thing as well. You know, people remember powerful stories, they don't remember, you know, a conversation that I had with them about policy clause 4.7. You know, they're gonna remember a story about the day that this happened in the organization. And by the way, it was about a policy. So storytelling 100%.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah. And I think people underestimate storytelling, but I'm really seeing that kind of drive through the change within our industry, and all the podcasts have really kind of brought out the storytelling. I think the one that I did with Tashwitka, that was a sensational sheen, really, really good kind of relatable stories that you can take back. Um, and then Rowenna building, um, she also had some good ones in there. And I would always say that when you're talking about your roles, you should use stories to make it more human um and understandable and relatable, and you'll get much more buy-in rather than carrot and stick because they just connect to your heart and they make learning stick.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah, 100%. It's that heart connection that's important, and that's about being human and just bringing that human into what we do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Okay, Andrea. So if we had to summarize the themes from these conversations in one message today, uh, what would that be for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I think that's pretty easy. Um, you don't thrive alone, build the community, ask for help, share the knowledge, share it generously as well, and have the courage to stay human in a role that pressures you to be a machine.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Amazing, Andrea. That is more than one thing though. Pick one of those. Whilst I agree with all of them, that's more than one thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Okay, so no, just say no. That would be another thing as well. So having that no in the mix. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

And I just want to add to that that you know, your job is to help people to do the right thing in a way that they can actually understand and adapt. Um, so it's very much key for information leaders to have the essential skills to be able to deliver that. So we all know the compliance, we all know the law, but actually it's that other piece that we're now missing that we really need to focus on and um have a look in 2026. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

So, Jackie, one year of podcasts, what do you want for its birthday?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Honestly, I want more people to realise that information leaders and information management data protection isn't boring, it's brave. There's so many neurodiverse information leaders within our industry, and this podcast has very much brought that out. And I I really want more young people to come into the profession because you know I had a podcast with Karis Hardy, and she's very kind of new into the profession, but you don't get that exposure until you're at university and you have to pick it. And if you don't pick it, you don't know if you like it or not. So there's like a b a big gap. That would be one of the things. Things that I would want to do. And I'm going to say second message in terms of your person, your people self is that just kind of be bold, be brave, uh, and be beautiful and kind of bring your authentic self to just do you and you will be enough to get what you need to get done.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Nice, I love that. That's all good stuff. And I guess you know, people feel feeling seen in their roles as well. Maybe a tiny cake, maybe a tiny cake shaped like a filing cabinet or you know, something along those lines, Jackie.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Cape share a cake shaped like a filing cabinet is now a non-negotiable.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

I'll get baking and I'll bring the sprinkles, retention labeled sprinkles, obviously. Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And to anyone listening, thank you so much, truly. This podcast exists because of the community around it. I've really enjoyed this year of episodes. So please subscribe, share it with someone in your world who needs it. And if you want professional development that actually feels human and useful, head over to the Leadership Through Data website.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Nice. And if you're new here, go back and listen to the earlier episodes. Um, you'll hear yourself in them as they go through. Beautifully said. Thank you so much for joining me, Andrea. No problem. Always happy first birthday podcast.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Happy first birthday, journals of the information entrepreneur. Thank you for listening to the Journals of the Information Entrepreneur with me, Jacqueline Stockwell. I hope you found this episode inspiring and helpful and have some takeaway tips that can be useful to you. If you liked this episode, please like, review, and share it with your friends. Your support helps us reach more information leaders to stay inspired and listen to great content. Want to test out your strengths and weaknesses and measure it against our Empower framework? Please complete the scorecard. It's a great way to improve and evaluate your skills. You can find the scorecard at the end of the description of this podcast. Stay tuned for new podcasts every Thursday and remember to be bold, be brave, and be beautiful.