The Everyday Trippers Podcast Episode 1: Jesse

Jesse - In this episode Brian talks with Jesse, a friend and colleague, about his psilocybin use as a young man, and why he's still journeying in midlife. 

Music by Howard Goldbach.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everybody to the Everyday Trippers Podcast. My name is Bright. I'm coming to you from the Pacific West Coast, the territory of the Lakwangan speaking peoples, the deep forests, thick moss, and endless coastline, the land of the mushroom. I'm so thankful to live my days in this little bit of paradise. The Everyday Trippers Podcast is a place of conversation where I talk with everyday people about the psychedelically enhanced trips they've taken, why they went, and what they brought back. Where do they think they were going? Today I'm talking with Jesse, a friend and colleague, a brother on this path. Jesse, anything you want to mention about yourself in a way of introductions before we get started?

SPEAKER_02 0:41

First thing I'll probably say is I've I've made it halfway through my life recently, so that's good. Hey, uh, already know that. That's excellent. So yeah, it's a big 4-0, so it's gonna be interesting to talk about my journey throughout the years of doing mushrooms. I should point out I've never done LSD before, so it'll be kind of a strictly you know philosophy sort of conversation, but awesome. Yeah, I mean, uh not much else. I'm sure we'll get into it, but not much else I really want to offer except.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah, obviously it's a pleasure. Really appreciate being here. Uh yeah, so we will get into, well, who knows, all sorts of stuff as we go. And I'm certainly curious to know about what all my guests have endeavored to try and kind of why, what's behind their decisions and everything. But I really like to get started right at the beginning. And it's a good way to get to know you a little bit because uh I'm curious about the people we are and why we choose to do things like eat mushrooms. So just before we do, please provide me with a little bit of context just as far as like where you grew up and what kind of kid you were.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Yeah, I was uh very very quiet kid. Learned later in life how introverted I am, and I didn't know that for years. Uh I I know you grew up in suburban Toronto, but I grew up in suburban Vancouver. So that's that'll be interesting to see where our our paths are quite similar. You know, I grew up in Pork Coquitlam in the lower mainland of Vancouver, Terry Fox High School. Yeah, it's it's an interesting thing to think back about what the suburban life was like back then. I I I I relate a lot to letter can, even though that was oh yeah, you know, it's all about Ontario, but we seem to have had all those similar groups. And I found myself kind of in the middle of the hockey player and the and the skid, which is a different, uh an interesting world to be a part of. Yeah, I grew up there, I was there for about 21, 22 years, something like that. My parents finally sold our our family home, and uh from back then it was they they dropped the price to 485,000, and it's definitely worth a lot more than that now. But then moved to the shoe swap in Salmon Arm, British Columbia, beautiful place, and found myself you know meeting a lot of really good friends there, and that's where I would say I did most of my experiences with mushrooms, and then met my partner and longtime best friend Kyla, and and uh we started going back to school and and then moved to Montreal for doing some of that. And things changed when we were there after experiencing a couple of winters and a couple of the summers, and yeah, and decided to do a little bit of traveling student life again and found ourselves back in British Columbia and here on Vancouver Island.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

So right on. Yeah, and we've known each other probably about a decade. Yeah, close to that here in Victoria. So we're both calling Vancouver Island home, and uh it's a pleasure to share that with you too. Like my so it sounds to me like your first experiences with mushrooms were in salmon arm. Is that the case?

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Well, yes and no, which is kind of uh kind of funny. So it was I was still living in the lower mainland. Um, my family had uh a cabin on Shuswap Lake growing up. We we built it in I think 1990. And my in in the lower mainland, we had an acre last set of houses on the mountain and just covered like surrounded by forest. And so it was the perfect place to grow up as a kid, you know. My friends would always come up to our place because of where it was, and but also my mom was the like that type of mom where she was like the mom to a whole bunch of my friends. So we we found ourselves going up to the to the lake every year for about a week multiple times, but um, I would always bring some friends up for a week at a time, sort of thing. And I would say, so I did try to think back when was the first time that I tried. That's a hard thing to to figure out, but I do recollect, I would say it's one of the the early ones, and it was being up at the shoe swap and and and waiting for it to kick in as you do, but also as a a newbie, as you also do, not waiting long enough. Yeah, sure, yeah, and eating more, and close to so so we ended up. I remember my I remember this vividly. We're all down on the dock, and then two of myself and two of my friends decided, well, maybe we'll just go do a little bit more. So we walked back up to the cabin, and I remember the three of us stepping into the lower level of the cabin and hitting that concrete foundation sort of thing, and the three of us just felt like we had lead boots on something, and it's and then we looked at each other and we knew we didn't need anymore. So we got a little bit something was happening for something was happening, and it was just staring into the water and enjoying the sunshine and having a fire at night sort of thing, and it was pretty tame. But that that would be one of the first ones. Sorry, so I probably spaced out, but did you mention how old you were or you think you were? I I probably around 15 or 16. Yeah, yeah. So pretty young.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

That was the same as me, actually. Uh, my first experience was with LSD, and I had some context for LSD. My brother is eight years older than me, and so obviously he went through high school and all of his uh adolescence before I even got there. And there were a few things that I knew about what he was doing, and that I recognized I was curious about it. Um and I I'd heard LSD kind of in reference to my brother and some of his experiences, and I didn't know what that was, but I was curious. And then I started to, you know, I was 15, I was reading Aldous Huxley, I was uh listening to the doors and whatever kind of classic rock uh I could kind of get my hands on, specifically though, that like late 60s Woodstock era. Um, and my own experimentation kind of just started from there. But thinking about who you were as a 15-year-old, where do you think you were like you mentioned mushrooms? Uh, and I I wonder if this is a geographic thing too. I eventually started eating mushrooms in Ontario, but um you know, different places, Ontario, BC, and uh so I guess I'm curious like what was your reference point? What did you know about psychedelics beforehand? You described yourself as a bit of an introvert, not something you've gotten to know about yourself, but uh if you can, like what other words would you use to describe who you were back then as the person who first made this decision?

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, that's that's a very interesting thing to try to uh you know look back on. I growing up, you know, like I said, in hindsight, I I I know now how introverted I was back then and how but I didn't know, like I just didn't know then being around a lot of people the time in card graduating class was was a big one, and we all knew each other, and there was a so it was a large group of friends, but but not a lot of um you know, like a smaller close-knit group of friends. So I didn't, I guess going into it, I guess. Well, I should say one of the reasons why I never did LSD was because I heard some pretty bad horror stories. Like I remember someone telling me about a local person who did it and had a white streak of hair that was permanent after, and and you know, so that always stuck in my mind. And and but I was always told mushrooms are safe, just don't do too much. Uh, I don't remember who told me, like my brother's three years older than me, so maybe him and his friends might have gotten into it a little bit sooner than me. Um, but I remember you know, looking back just being out with friends a lot. Uh I also had a it was a pretty hard childhood, which we don't need to get into too much of that. But again, in hindsight, I know I was dealing with a lot as a teenager and and went through bouts of depression. I think some of the depression bouts had to do with concussions from sports and from weight boarding up on shoe swap, which again, all of these things I learned down the road. Yeah, you just live them at the time. Exactly. And I think I learned them as well in part to do with mushrooms, which we'll get uh uh shortly, I'm sure, to where I am now. Um, so I think looking back, I did a lot of escaping the anxiety of being around a lot of people all the time and and a lot of family stuff going on at the time and over the years. And so I think a lot of it back then was escapism, drinking you know, mushrooms didn't get into any drug any other sorts of drugs until a few years later when it did move up to Salmon Arm. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of the Cole's notes on that period.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Well, you bring up some interesting things that I'm just gonna get right into with you. Um mainly like you speak about escapism, and I can relate to that. Uh, I had a lot of curiosity at the time that brought me to various different uh tools for escape, different drugs that I was willing to give a shot. Um, it's interesting you bring up the fears about LSD because I I remember hearing about um there was like a classic story that must have gone around my school of the last time the Grateful Dead, or maybe it was Pink Floyd, the last time Pink Floyd had come to town, someone had done acid and tried to fly. And uh obviously that never ends well. But I have no idea if that was that was true. Like uh I do know now I still have similar fears about um putting completely synthesized uh or like lab-based chemicals in my body, even prescription drugs I have hesitancy with. Um, and I I find myself gravitating towards mushrooms. But I want to get back to the point you made about escapism because one of the things that's and please uh offer up your opinion, disagree with me if you will, but one of the things I find is profoundly different between mushrooms and psychedelic drugs and other drugs like alcohol or uh ecstasy or other things that were available at the time that you know were somewhere between marijuana and cocaine. They were things that people were using, but not necessarily um habitually. Those are escape drugs, like those are like let's forget it all and have a really good time. Alcohol for sure, you know, eat uh harder things like coke. Uh mushrooms and LSD are for me much more of like, okay, well, you're probably gonna have to look some things right in the eye here. Yeah, uh, it's not necessarily an escape. Now, as a youth, uh, I definitely made my fair share of mistakes as to where and when I chose to indulge in different things, including mushrooms. But do you relate to that?

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Uh and yeah, I guess can you just speak to that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. I would say now it is, it's not now it's less of an escape and more of a discovery. You know, and that's where uh yeah, back then I was trying to hide from the trauma. I mean, let's just say it for what it is, and and now it's about uh discovering that and uh and admitting things, you know, like things inside that you just always kind of remember, try to repress, uh, you know, that have been traumatic, and now it's it's kind of bringing those to the forefront. So, you know, like with my experience now with with mushrooms is you know, through a few times a year sort of thing, it's almost like a like a like a refresh, you know, like a mental refresh. So yeah, I find that interesting as it start to get older and start to learn more about mushrooms and what they can do for people with anxiety or depression or just trauma in general. And and uh so that's that's more of the path where I've been on for the last I'd say probably a handful of years now.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah. Certainly interesting times for us to be living in, like when we were getting started, uh whether it's 20 or 30 years ago, like we're we're a few years apart, but um this was all illicit behavior. Yeah, you know, if you were getting your hands on mushrooms, um hopefully you knew who the person was you were getting them from, but inevitably there was someone down that line that you didn't, and there was a certain amount of trust that you were putting into things, and now uh the world's a different place, and there's research being done into exactly what you're talking about today. Uh in fact, I think some of the best research in the world is being done right here on Vancouver Island of at uh VIU. But it's like we'd we'd figured out something about wanting to well, I don't want to speak for anyone else, but uh I definitely figured out something about uh dealing with my own traumas. Thinking again, getting back, thinking about when you started using it, and you've talked a little bit about this transition in your approach or uh the reasons why you come back. Do you recognize some like time of transition, some like other maturity that happened in you? Like one of the things I'm curious about is how much am I the product of my trips? And how much is the fact that I want to go on trips just the product of who I am? That's an interesting thought.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely uh that's a chicken in the egg sort of thing for me, where like I there's a couple of moments in the past that I do remember from doing mushrooms, and it's not um the sort of full-on ego death that you hear of that you know, people who have done DMT or those sorts of things and visiting aliens and whatnot, but it's it's very much a big uh or very much related to that and the ego and just that the self. And yeah, I remember feeling out of body and and looking down at myself and and and I've really tapped into like I I find myself to be a very uh gentle and caring person and empathetic, and and this really just I think brought that out back then, and really it's a it's a good reason why I'm still doing mushrooms to these days, and I don't do anything else. Like I haven't done ecstasy or cocaine or anything else for probably 15, 17 years now. Uh, but the mushrooms I always go back to because I because of being a very uh introvert person and introspective, it's a perfect uh substance to use every once in a while. I like to think, and I and I like the unknown, and it just plays hand in hand with that, I find.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Um thinking back to that time of life, you were 15 uh when you had your first experience or thereabouts. Do you think that there's anything worth saying about how having that first experience at that time of life impacted you going forward?

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah, it's I mean, looking back, I'd probably say it's a little too young, just knowing a little bit more about the brain and how long it takes to develop. And I don't, and maybe mushrooms were the right one to use. I don't know, but the other ones I'm sure weren't so good in the early 20s. Yeah, I don't know. That's a that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, it's one to roll around a little bit. Uh again, for me, a lot of it is like there was a lot there was a lot of early trauma in my family life, uh, things that were completely out of my control. I was the youngest and I was born into a context, and there was there was violence and combat really in my family. And um things have calmed down quite a bit by the time I reached my like high school years. But I could think back to who I was, and I know that uh I was open for I was open for a lot. And there's I think I have a lot of gratitude, I would say, that I discovered mushrooms when I did, because if I was in a different circle, in a different school, in a different community, there might have been other things available to me that were uh even easier to escape through, right? Uh and harder to find like a clear path.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, that's interesting because I know you know, being around 15, it seemed like mushrooms were pretty easy to get. And then in the early 20s, it was more ecstasy back and forth about that. And that's when I ended up getting into that, you know, you're old enough to go to the bar, so then you know, there was a little bit of a bar starter period in New Westminster, and and then mushrooms were just not really there. You know, you get stuck in that sort of uh EDM world for a little bit. And you know, that's again, that's one of the reasons why I love mushrooms because it's not addictive. In fact, we always like to make the joke where like it's the least addictive drug drug out there because when you when you're thinking about doing it, you're like, do I really want to do this thing? You know, yeah, whereas everything else is like, yeah, you just you can't help it if you get into it. But mushrooms are they always have that sort of warning of you that you remember each and every time for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

There's a uh feeling of both um excitedness uh and also apprehension. Yeah, it's an interesting little bit of anxiety. Yeah. Um a few things you said just now brought me back. A few weeks ago I was in Vancouver and went and saw Paul Stametz speak. Uh Paul Stametz is um, well, now he's living up on Cortez, but he's kind of I would say he's the most well-known mycologist uh of the era. He's kind of the living uh leader on the front of um magic mushroom awareness in the world, or he's got a Netflix, yeah. Well, I know he has a uh you might be thinking about Michael Poland. He had Michael Poland does the How to Change Your Mind series, I think. But I know that Paul Stamutz had a very famous TED talk, like six ways that mushrooms will change the world. Uh if he's on Netflix, I should seat that out. Anyway, I have to admit, like, there wasn't a ton in his talk that really was brand new information for me, but there were a few things that really stuck out. And uh at one point he he addresses the crowd of 2,500 people, and he's like, I'm just curious before I go on, like, who here has not used psilocybin before? And about a dozen of the 2500 people put their hand up, and there was a bit of a like there wasn't a laugh exactly that went through the crowd, but you could really feel like a bit of an energy shift, and it was really interesting. And later he said, you know, he's talking about modern research and um things that uh mushrooms can do for people to help them deal with their trauma, to help them deal with uh depression and other really dehabilitating disorders. Um but beyond all that, he said, and something I've noticed is that everyone I've met who's who uses psilocybin is just a little bit kinder. Yeah. And that really, really sunk in. Like it's true. Like I find it very easy to form relationships with people without knowing much about them, uh, who have used psilocybin. And often I don't know that they've used psilocybin right in the first bit of our conversation, but then after finding that out somewhere down the road, it's like, well, this all makes sense. There's something about it that uh that works in that way.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, that's interesting because that's I mean, when I was just mentioned, like the one memory I have of just feeling like like I was out of my body looking down, just having that disconnect from the self. Uh, so that kind of that makes sense to me because and I have the same experiences with people. It's uh and same with people who do smoke pot as well. Like, I don't think I've ever met someone who's who smoked pot that I've ever been like that kind of or like what a mean guy or something. I've never really met that. I've met people who do coke all the time or like that, or alcohol or something. Yeah, but that's interesting because I I mean there's gotta be I'm sure there's something to it, of course. I mean, I'm not a scientist by any means, but um, it's the same with like, you know, hearing the stories of people who do DMT and that that serious ego death, and it's just that out of the body sort of thing, and that I don't know, maybe that allows us to put ourselves into other people's shoes a little easier.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah, there seems to be a bit of a blurring of the lines that separate self from other. And I know for me, there's been people in my life that my relationship has forever been changed as a result of the fact that we've had a shared mushroom experience. But also with nature, like you mentioned on that first trip of yours, one thing that's kind of sticking out to you is just staring into the water. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah. Are there any concrete things that you think you could mention as far as like takeaways that uh you've brought back with you from a trip?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Um yeah, I mean that you know that's interesting because lately, when whenever we do mushrooms, it's less, you know, back in the day it was like, let's go out, let's go for a walk, let's be in nature, let's go camping, let's let's be doing something. These days, it's let's lay down on the floor and close our eyes and meditate when we're high. Or let's sit on the patio and stare at the trees and the hummingbirds. You know, it's I guess that's still still a good, you know, still using mediation. Yeah, but the the laying down and closing the eyes is that's uh I think the takeaway that I've gotten over the years is that you don't have to be doing as as much when you are doing mushrooms than you think to have a need for that. I think it's I mean it's arguable, but I think even better trip of meditating when you're doing it. And we all know when you close your eyes, when you're on mushrooms, you can see some you know some pretty amazing kaleidoscopes. But letting that happen and then following it, you know, one of my the one trip I can remember is when I was finally laying down for bed, and this is like probably why it kind of sat with me, is because I did exactly that. And it was one of the first times I've ever really done that when basically peeking on the mushrooms, and I followed a wormhole and went into space. Like I could I saw myself coming up to this hole and stars in the distance, and everything else was blurred, and I just went with it, and it was basically just you know, kind of like 2001 space odyssey floating off into the abyss of uh everything. Yeah, so I'd say that the takeaway for me now that learning back then is just you don't have to be with a bunch of people and partying and and camping, and although that's fun, there's always a time and place for that, of course, as well. But now it's just more of a yeah, it's more of a meditative uh you know journey.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I mean, that's very interesting. I was actually thinking about like, were there takeaways from your journeys that you've brought back with you that you apply into the everyday? Um and I I know that I've actually heard that just in what you've been saying. Um, but like when you think about who you've become uh and your approach to the world, are there things that you feel you can draw direct lines from uh from your previous trips?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah, I'd say I don't know think about that to be honest. Um I don't know. I mean I I try I don't find myself thinking as much on the trips and just uh not really sure how to answer that actually. Yeah, well that'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Sure. If there's things that come to you, then please feel free to return to it. Um out of curiosity, I guess let's talk about now these sort of journeys you're doing currently every few months to kind of reset or refresh the system. What uh how much are you usually taking?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Two grams at the most. Yeah, yeah, one to two grams. Um wife always wants to do a little bit more of a macro dose, and then that's where that do we really want to do this kicks in. Uh, I've only had one bad trip ever in my life. Uh and it was like back then I was doing them quite often. This was in Salmon Art and um took I don't know, probably around seven grams of tea and and found everything went red and purple as if and just sat in a basement and literally said to my friends, I'm just gonna sit here until this cools down. Yeah, and head is kind of ringing for a little while, and just wrote it out. But uh yeah, one to two grams are all that I really do now. It's just enough to get the visual and looking outside and seeing everything waving. And um, but you know, I I do think more of a I know that's considered a macro dose compared to microdosing, but considering doing an even bigger macro dose. What about you? How many like I'm yeah, I don't know what the average dreamer does.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I I know it's interesting to talk about. Um I would say so. First off, of late, I've had a bit of a renaissance. Um, my kids are 16 and 21 now, and uh I had one or two or three different mini eras of psychedelic use when I was younger, and had my first uh had my son when I was 25. Um didn't realize how young I was to be having a kid and didn't realize what exactly would change. But one of the changes for me was that there just weren't the same opportunities to eat mushrooms and they weren't finding their way to me in the same way, and certainly not uh LSD. Um, I haven't really been playing around with that in a long time. But um, so back in the day, uh in my first go-around, um, I kind of built my way up to I think the largest dose I had was three and a half grams, and uh it was an absolutely unbelievable experience. I was on Maine Island with seven other people, and the eight of us, the eight of us shared an ounce of mushrooms, so um it was a lot of energy, and it was beautiful and amazing. Like my friend uh has a place right on the coast, and we just didn't have to leave there, but when we did, we were just like a troop of people, the roads were safe, you know. We were walking through cow fields and uh, but also just coming back and taking care of ourselves, lying down, um just being just allowing it to be. And I don't recall having eaten that much again. It was not a bad trip for me, it was very good, but it was powerful enough that um there's respect for that dose, and uh I don't know if apprehension is the right word, but there's times that I'm definitely I I know enough about myself and about how much that is that it will be the right circumstances before I go back there. And I honestly, it was powerful enough that I don't know that I need to exceed that amount, right? Although, so in my more recent times, maybe about a year ago, I started to think much more about mushrooms, and they started to find me again. And I I talked early about the changing world, and one of the changes in our world was that you can actually go into a store in Vancouver now and just buy mushrooms. In fact, I've I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard there's also a store up in the Comox uh area. Um big blow-up mushroom out front, easy to spot apparently. So the world's a bit different. People are talking about it again, it's in my mind, and um, I've been finding quite a few opportunities to eat up to about two grams. In fact, I might not even have hit two grams, uh, but somewhere between a gram and two. And we I know I'm not all that interested in microdosing. I have friends who've talked about some real benefits that they think they're experiencing from it, and that's awesome. Like whatever works for whoever. If there is uh a reason to microdose, fantastic. For me, uh, although I'm using it a lot more regularly than once or twice or three times a year, I still feel like it's that refresh that I need. And uh often for me, it's like some random night that the family has all gone to bed or the kids are completely out of the house, and I have uh there's a room in the back of our house that feels like you're in a little cabin, uh, leads out to the garden. Uh, it's where my office is, uh, but it's also uh just a place that I can chill and uh I'm trying to work on a book on writing, uh, as I think you know from past conversations. And I recently started to eat between a gram or two, sit down and write, get out anywhere from 500 to a thousand words before the mushrooms have kicked in to a degree that I don't want to be writing, and and I can't really focus on words on a screen very well. Uh, and then often um I will turn up the grateful dead, and I just lie back, and that that's what works for me. And I have those moments, uh nothing formal, but I would say like informal meditation, just figuring out what works to allow myself to to shed, and like one of the things I asked you about concrete things that you've brought back. So, as an example of something for me that's like that came out of one of those uh sessions that has lingered, it's stuck around. Is you'll probably relate to this, but there's that feeling, you know, you talked earlier about how you don't always know, like, is it happening yet? Is it uh is it and especially when you're a beginner? Uh, but one of the reasons I like tea is that it kicks in quicker and you get it, you're like, okay, this has happened, here I am, it's still the beginning, working my way towards a peak, but here it is. But as it escalates and you begin to peak, there's a what can be a difficult, like physiological feeling, like it's like you just feel a little bit, and again, it's like maybe the lines are just blurred, and then also my mind uh can start going in various different directions. And uh, I've learned, I think I am now like old enough, uh, and I know myself well enough that I can bring my thoughts back under control and just listen. And one of the things, one of the takeaways that I had was all that feeling, the blurring physically and mentally, uh, can be quite unsettling. And I had this moment of just saying, it's just chaos, and if you can just sit in it, you don't have to fight the chaos, you can just be strong in it. You're going to not only like I think what happens to a lot of people is start having a bad trip and then they just hope to get out of that bad trip. And I've been there in that place that you described once before, uh, with LSV, where I was like, okay, I'm now just gonna go sit on the couch and let this go. But really, that's not the end goal ever, is to just let this one. Sometimes it's the right thing to do, but it's not the end goal to just let this one ride out. And I have this feeling of like, if I just remain still, I'm gonna come from this place of um uneasiness to just clarity. And I was able to experience that, and it's stuck with me now. It's been some lingering for a month or two since that happened because there's a lot of things in my life. My kids are 16 and 21. Anyone who's listening, whose kids are 16 or 21, they know you have no control over them at all, and you think you know who they are and what they're going to do, and they do different things. And uh my wife and I, we've known each other now for over 20 years, but you have no control in your relationship. I have no control in my relationship. I don't think she has any more control than I do, but it's uh it's an organic process of coming together and um and it's really helped me in the subsequent weeks to just remember that I can be strong and to listen in the midst of all of the chaos, and I'll come through the other side.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

That's interesting. That's uh it sounds highly meditative, you know. So you know, I wonder, I don't know for certain, but I do wonder if yeah, maybe my experiences with mushrooms has allowed me to be uh to live more of a mindful life. You know, you always hear stories of some people, they say there's no way I can do meditation, my mind's just racing all the time. But that's that's that is meditation, like exactly what you were just mentioning of you feels any anytime if you're feeling some sort of let's say just anxiety, it's so easy to fall into that pattern of it and just it gets more intense and more intense. But you know, when you just experience the feeling and say, okay, what does this feeling feel like and just sit with it? Then eventually the feeling dissipates, and that's I mean, that is meditation right there, you know. Um, but I do wonder, you know, I'll never be able to do a test on it, but I wonder if without doing mushrooms, if it would be that as easy to fall into a meditative state or to process emotions or feelings uh like I feel like I can, you know, that level of emotional intelligence, maybe maybe it's age, but I do think that there's some sort of these sorts of experiences do help with that.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, we're all different. And obviously, some people out there in the world are able to develop meditation routines that really work for them without any additives. Um good for them. Yeah, uh, for sure, good for them. Um I've not found the same success. I've tried to integrate meditation into my life from time to time over the years and really with limited success. And yeah, like this uh this moment I described was very much just a meditative experience, and also the moment that you described described with the water, like uh I find it really fascinating that 20 years later I can remember very specific trips where I was just sitting next to a river, like nothing at all was happening, but I remember it as clearly as other trips that were full of spontaneity and unexpectedness and um chaos sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. But like I could put myself back at the suspension bridge in Moon Valley and just like walking around those woods, and um yeah, that gives me chills talking about it, to be honest. Like uh but those were just meditative experiences, I think that we walk away from feeling a little bit more connected to our world around us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

I mean, even just going for a walk, yeah, stone cold, sober, and just going through the forest out back, it's just that fresh air and everything else. But then when you I mean, obviously, when you're on mushrooms, you stop and watch the bark move for sure, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And uh but when you're walking through the next time and you're not on mushrooms, yeah, you might still spend an extra minute with the bark.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Well, I find my you know, I I do find myself looking around more often. And uh, you know, I golf a lot, as you know, and um there's always golfers who are like it's like they want to get done as soon as possible, or you know, someone in your group plays a little slower than others and they start to get upset about it, and I find myself just staring around at nature and watching watching the wind blow, uh watching bald eagles fly by. So I don't know. I do think I'm uh much more of a mindful type of liver. Yeah, that's a liver.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Liver of life, yeah, for sure. Um, I meant to ask earlier and didn't, but when going back to that first time, uh you've had this experience. I'm gonna guess that you couldn't have really known what to expect from it, you know. You kind of described what it looked like if I was watching more or less. Um and you mentioned your your one kind of bad trip. So I guess there's a few things I'm curious about. One is after that first time, how long do you think it took you to go back and have another trip? Like you brought up that feeling of apprehension before each trip. That's something that I really relate to. But why do you say yes? Like you then, when you've only had the one trip.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

I I don't think it took long to have the second trip because we were all up at Shoe Swap and for the week and stuff. In fact, uh what uh by far the most embarrassing moment of my life was the the morning after. So it wasn't the first time, you know, staring into the water and everything. It was just being out, you know, drinking that night and having some mushrooms. And we were at the point, we called it the point. You have to walk through a trail to get there, a creek runs out. We'd always build a fire there. And I woke probably too many beers than mushrooms at that, you know, that evening, but I woke up the next morning and my friends had all left me there at the point, fires out, ash all over me. And I looked over, and there was an entire family, children, like all the way up to grandparents, and there I am with ash, just covered in ash. Uh and so I guess that actually kind of sums up you know what my experience was back then of just like it was like a it was almost like a party drug, but not in the you know, the ecstasy sort of way. Uh I don't even know where I was going with this story, but well, I I was asking why say yes again.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Oh, yeah. So and uh and but I'm curious, even just like it's not exactly a party drug.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

No, no, yeah. Saying yes back then was just because I guess we did it. Saying yes now, oh man, yeah, like we've said we've probably had the the mushrooms in our CRISPR probably not even potent anymore. It's because it's been probably six months and they've just been sitting there, but we've talked so many times, like, oh, we should we should do them this weekend. Like it's been a while, and you know, we both have a lot of anxiety, and and so we've been like, you know, it's time to have another session, sort of thing. But we we've said no many times, and I don't really know why. Um and I don't know why there is that apprehension because every time we never do a lot, like we said, like it's you know, gram to two grams, so it's never too much, but for some reason that apprehension is still there, and I don't know why we lately haven't gone over that hump. Uh it's that's uh maybe it's something I'll have to discover once we finally do do that.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Well, I mean, there's nothing wrong with approaching you with respect, um, but it is something interesting to think about and thinking back to that bad trip you had, and you described it like obviously it didn't um you were probably happy when you came out the other end of it. Oh, yeah, but um again, you came back at some point. How old were you when that bad trip happened?

SPEAKER_02 42:43

That was still probably early 20s, 22, 23, something like that. Um yeah, and it wasn't even like uh like I don't know, I'm I am an experienced shroomer, like I know, I know like for those listening that have never done it, yeah, the more you do, the more intense it gets. And and that's not you know, it's not like it's not like marijuana where you could just, you know, the more you smoke, you plateau. Yeah, you plateau exactly. Mushrooms are not like that. So, you know, I think that experience really solidified for me, like that's where I kind of learned that the more you do, this doesn't mean it's better. Although some people uh I would imagine at some point you might have Mark on on for an episode. Um, he's also experienced. I think like he he can do much more than I ever could. And some people they just they can do it and they they handle it. I I just can't, though. I I know myself well enough.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Know your limits and stick to them for sure. I'm at the same time. That's something I learned. Sorry, it's maybe at the same time. Well, I know I'm not very good at learning my limits, or I learned my limits well, but I always want to push myself just a little bit, just a little bit further.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Yeah, it's tough with tough with mushrooms to do that though.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Well one of the things I'm like I think we're coming to a close just but one of the things that I'm trying to introduce is a segment called Remember That Trip. We've obviously talked about it a handful, but uh do you have a trip of yours that um like sometimes I'm gonna be bringing in people that I've I've tripped with and then we'll be able to reminisce well we'll have future trips together, but for now, is there a trip from your past that just had some moment that stuck with you you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah, I definitely remember it. Uh it was with um someone from San Arm. His name's Quentin. Q, we used to call him. I didn't know him for very long. Met him through a friend. Uh him and I hitchhiked to Kelowna one time, like we had just a weekend together, and it was a great weekend. And then shortly after that, we we did mushrooms one night, and we just walked around San Manar, and you know, it was definitely a good macro dose, it wasn't too much, but it was it was probably a few grams, and we were just in our own world. Uh you know, I don't know how loud we were or whatnot, but just walking around, and when you get down to the close to the waterfront in Salmonar, there's a tri uh uh railroad track that goes through the city. And I remember it driving past, and there's no blockades or anything, so you could go up if you wanted to. We didn't, but but I remember being down by the waterfront train going by, and it was it was such a weird feeling because it wasn't a loud train, and it was just it was almost almost silent. And for some reason, Quentin had a staff, like a burn, you know, like the you could light the ends. Oh, yeah, yeah. And never used one before. Uh, I remember having aviators on at nighttime, and and he lit it and handed it to me. And like I don't know if you've ever had an experience with it. Like spinning flyer? Yeah, and I don't know if it's the mushrooms or what, but I I was like, I was twirling it above my head. It was for everything because of the size of it, it was probably it's gotta be eight or ten feet. Yeah, usually they're about eight feet, I think. And it just flowed left, right, up above, and this and the sound of this train going by, just silent, and then just the little the squeaking wheels every now and then and rolling over the tracks and just swinging the staff around on fire. It's just uh I'll just never forget that for some reason. And then I remember going, we walked up the trail because it's a beautiful marshland, and when we were walking back, we saw police lights, and we just got scared and and just I don't even know if they were police. I it was just it was one of those like maybe we peeked a little bit too much at that moment, but I just I'll never forget that night, just that train and just yeah, in major flows flow state. So maybe mushrooms helps with flow. That's an interesting thing I've always wondered because it's not the most memorable, but I did uh not a macro, not a micro, went golfing, so that was kind of quite nice. And I made the joke to my friend who also had some, they were just kind of barely noticing them, but I was like, oh, let's fire up, you know, let's just go for the green and two. It's a long R5, and I I hit a three wood to three feet and eagled the first hole, and we laughed because I, you know, mushrooms for the wind sort of thing. So I don't know how much um validity there is in in going into flow state because of mushrooms, but I think there's something to it because it's just that that night by the train just felt like a very nice flow state.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Awesome. Awesome. Well, yeah, that's such a vivid, uh clear thought. Uh that's great. I second time today I've gotten the chills in this interview listening to that, but that's amazing. Uh thank you for sharing. Well, listener, you've made it through to the end of another great conversation on the Everyday Trippers podcast. These conversations are meant to be informative and entertaining. Choosing to take psychedelics is a personal choice and not for everyone. Indeed, no medicine is right for all of us, and I encourage you to think carefully about whether mushrooms, LSD, or any of the other mind-opening and altering substances that we've spoken about in this episode and those of the past are right for you. If you are considering it and you have a doctor you trust who is open-minded, I suggest speaking to them. That may be hard to find, but hopefully you can connect with a friend or loved one with experiences of their own to share. And if not, please keep coming back to hear from our guests and let our stories help you decide. If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode, or if you have something friendly and constructive to share, please send me a note at theeverydaytripper at gmail.com. Much love, listeners, until the next time.