The Everyday Trippers Podcast Episode 7: Jeff

Jeff - In this episode, Brian speaks with Jeff, a citizen of the Cherokee nation, and a scholar doing work toward sustainable self-determination and Indigenous Internationalism, with a focus on everyday acts of resurgence.

Music by Howard Goldbach.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome everybody to the Everyday Trippers Podcast. My name is Brian, and I'm coming to you from the Pacific West Coast, the ancestral lands of the Lakwangan speaking peoples, the deep forests, thick moss, and endless coastline, the land of the mushroom. So thankful to live my days in this little bit of paradise. The Everyday Trippers Podcast is a place of conversation where I talk with everyday people about the psychedelic journeys they've taken, why they went, and what they brought back. Today I'm talking with Jeff, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation and a scholar doing work towards sustainable self-determination and indigenous internationalism with a focus on everyday acts of resurgence. Jeff, it's an honor to have you join me for this conversation. I've been thinking back, and we've known each other for many years now, going on 15, I believe. It seems hard to believe. And yet, in many ways, I think it's fair to say we don't know each other all that well. So I'm sure there's lots of new information, lots of getting to know each other through this process. Anything you want to mention about yourself, Jeff, as a way of uh introduction before we get started?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Absolutely. Yeah, what O'Brien for having me on. And uh I'll just say Osio Nigata, hello everyone. It's good to be here. Well, my Cherokee name is Gano Holido. I'm a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and I belong to the Echota Stomp Grounds or the Calm Ceremonial Grounds. And so it's great to be here. Yeah, it has been 15 years, that's been quite some time, and I think we started kind of going the intellectual, you know, academic route, getting to know you on your thesis, and now it's morphed into our paths keep crossing. That's true. It's morphed into something different. So we are getting to know each other, and that that's a pleasure to be on here. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Uh, you played a very important role for me uh in the coming together of my thesis. Uh you're a very important advisor that gave me the confidence to go out into the world and speak to the people that I did, many of which were indigenous people, uh both local to the area and beyond. Uh so I've had gratitude for that for a long time. But as you mentioned, we keep keep bumping into each other, and it had been a number of years since we'd physically seen each other face to face, but it was a pleasure running into you and uh told you a little bit about this podcast, and sure enough, uh you have some experiences to share. So I look forward to hearing about them. Absolutely. Uh the podcast itself is it's as the listeners will know, it's a fairly free-flowing conversation. There are certain points that I like to get to as I uh as we explore together, uh, and it is a conversation. Uh so please, uh, if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask as well. Um so one of the places that I like to start uh is really from the beginning. Many of the folks that I speak to I know from my past, uh, I've often shared psychedelic experiences with them, so I have some context, but uh I don't have that context with you. Um so I'm a little bit curious for you to describe some of your beginnings. Like uh I think of this as a a bit of a segment called Chicken or the Egg, uh, which the more I think about it is less less appropriate. Uh but really what I want to know is when you think about yourself, were you somebody who always had curiosities? And would you know yourself to be somebody to lean into these curiosities, and that's what led you to psychedelic journeys? Or were you born to trip, or did tripping bring something out of you uh that uh you didn't necessarily see coming? Uh great question.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I think it was the latter. I think tripping brought something out on me, uh of me, that I didn't necessarily know even about myself or wasn't didn't have that awareness. And uh yeah, it was uh it was a little over two years ago, and I'd just gotten out of a long relationship. I was struggling a bit, and I was looking for ways to reflect, as a you know, a 50-something year old does sometimes, looking way for ways to reflect on my life, but also ways to go deeper, and deeper than maybe a counseling session could take me. Uh deeper in a sense that a great conversation with friends can take you. You know, those are wonderful, those are medicine. And in a sense, um I was looking to it as a maybe an extension of ceremony, and so I'd been going to I've been going to Green Corn at uh Choda Grounds, which green corn is kind of like our new year in some ways. It's probably doing it a disservice, but it's kind of uh where we retire the old fire and bring in the new fire, and that new fire is something that we celebrate, we um kind of have a moment of sorrow with the old fire, a last smoke, so to speak. And then we bring in the new fire and we dance all night, and so we go from ten at night till dawn. And there are times, you know, you're you're fasting, so you're you're a little bit deprived of food, and there are times where the grounds, you know, take on a whole different appearance, where the fire takes on a whole different appearance. And so I thought of experimenting with um psilocybin as kind of an extension of that where I would treat it like ceremony, I would fast in preparation, and the thing that the things that were unknown to me at that time is where do I go to do this? Who do I do this with? You know, the setting is so important, I think, for all of the all of these experiences, and so, like a lot of things, sometimes it comes to you. So I was visiting my cousin in uh Washington, the state of Washington, and he had this experience and knew some people that ran these circles, and so uh it appealed to me because I'd be able to do it with a relative. And then I started talking to another Cherokee friend of mine, and we thought, okay, you know, this was a play, you know, it'll we'll make it as safe as possible, we'll make it as secure as possible, in the sense that there's folks that will be there that we won't know, and folks that are running it that we don't know. But there was a counselor on site which was kind of important to me, and and so it was a yurt, and it was like 12 other kind of pads spread around this yurt, and um and so I'm so glad that I had my cousin and my Cherokee friend there because they helped ground me, and I think in turn I helped ground them. We felt a certain security to be ourselves and to really express you know what was what was happening and what was um what we were experiencing, and so so that's kind of how it came to me. I was I was of course as the consummate you know professor, I was reading up on it. Sure. I was looking into you know Michael Poland's book was important, uh, just for thinking about um how this this medicine has been criminalized, and yet it's like a lot of other medicines, it's misunderstood, it's misused, and uh, you know, it doesn't have a uh in a sense a good representation, uh yet it's so valuable to a lot of people in terms of um multiple needs that they may have, right? And so I started looking into that. Uh and so we set up a time, it was uh yeah, it was roughly about two and a half years ago. And uh I remember being super nervous or traveling, you know, this is pre-geopolitical chaos. Right. Well as we know it. Yeah, pre-the-current geopolitical chaos. Pre-current geopolitical chaos, and you know, there are a lot of uncertainties, you know, who are the people that are gonna be in there and and that sort of thing. And so I um, you know, I arrived and it was a really warm, friendly setting. And I think I really can't stress that enough. Like, that is so key to I think anyone's experience to have a positive experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, and so I can go into it, but I uh wasn't sure if you had another question or well, I mean, we will get into it for sure. Um already it's rather fascinating for me. Like uh, you know, I'm collecting guests as I go here, and I'm really looking to hear from a diversity of people and uh diversity of people with different experiences. I know a little bit about I guess the relationship between indigenous peoples throughout what's known as the Americas and uh their relationship with different medicines that uh evoke this uh space of transcendence, uh, which you describe, and I'm certainly curious to hear more about that. Many of the people that I've spoken with are folks that had their first experiences with very little guidance and um figured out things like how important the setting is through some trial and error, and unfortunately stumbled upon some less than great experiences as they as they learned these lessons. Right. And I think of Silocybin in particular, uh as well as various other psychedelic uh substances as medicine. Yeah. And those medicines teach their lessons. And part of my fascination is that it's not an easy experience. So when thinking about who's who's gonna come on, and uh it's people who have chosen these uh less than easy experiences, uh recognizing there might be great value in these experiences, even though we may have trepidation going into them. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of putting it. I I had uh trepidation. I was I was thinking back to the late Von Deloria Jr. as a Lakota Sioux um scholar, really prolific guy. And one of the things he said at a conference was um basically there are many paths to uh kind of a um uh I guess a point of connection, and so spirituality for him was like having a bus transfer pass. And I thought that was so interesting. Yeah, there's there's many different ways, many different routes. And so that that made me think about psilocybin and why was I kind of closed off to that possibility, and you know, a lot of it was the stereotypes or the you know, maybe other people's experiences, but that can't drive, you know, my need or my desire to have that experience. And I viewed it just like you said, I viewed it as a medicine, uh, I viewed it as a chance to, from based on everything I read and saw, a chance to visit with your ancestors for a brief moment, and to have this conversation, if you will, or this experience where they're teaching you in a very intense way. And you're right, it's not easy, it's not something that you just that's why I don't view it as recreational, at least for me. Um, it's not something that I just will say, hey, you know, I'm having a bad day, I'm gonna go home and try this. It's very intentional, it's very kind of once a year kind of thing for me. And I think everyone's different with their approach to this. But yeah, it's it's a it's a it's I I treat it the same or similarly to green corn or to another ceremony, pipe ceremony that we might do, where you're you're tapping into that deeper, you know, kind of place-based consciousness, into a deeper consciousness of self. Yeah. And you're connecting to your ancestors in some form or fashion.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah. So much richness in what you're saying. My thoughts are all over the place. Uh I'll share a few of them, but this uh analogy of um like the the bus pass, or as you're talking, I very much feel it's like we're all on our own path. I have some beliefs that lead me to think we're all going somewhere. Whether we know we're on that path and where that path is leading, some of us have uh more of an inclination than others, but uh there's too much going on here for me to uh deny this reality that we all seem to be heading towards something. And you had experiences with uh transcendence and transcendent rituals, which I think gives you some context whether or not you could put two and two together before your psilocybin experience, I think that provided you with a healthy level of preparation. When when you fast and then dance all night, as ecstatic as that sounds, there's a uh somewhat out-of-body experience that uh comes from that. And not that I've shared in your experiences, but I I have tried to dance all night before. Sure. Um I know I know a little bit about where that takes you. Right. Maybe we'll oh, and I guess I just wanted to say as well, like you're very comfortable speaking about ancestors and connecting with ancestors, and that's something I think a lot about as well. And part of the medicine connects you with those ancestors, allows for those conversations, but also connects you with the people that you're sharing the experience with. Yes. Or what I find as quite helpful, especially when recording this podcast, is having the shared experience of using this medicine with at least similar goals or intent allows you and I to come together. And even though we haven't shared in this ritual together, perhaps yet, I think it still allows us to have this conversation and recognize that we share something, and it brings me closer uh to the not only the ancestors, but the the people that are present here with me today.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Absolutely. Yeah, and I I think part of our teaching is you're never alone. So you always have your ancestors with you. I think the psilocybin allowed me to see that or to feel that in a more profound way. Because sometimes you say things and you don't really believe it. And I believed it, but I just didn't feel it. And I think psilocybin allowed me to feel things in a in a really profound and really deep way. Um, and the other thing I was thinking as you were speaking is, you know, so many times we think of ourselves in a in a you know, we're in these human bodies. And uh Henrietta Mann, who's Cheyenne Sundance Woman, someone I really respect, said at one point, you know, we're not humans seeking a spiritual path. We're spiritual beings seeking a human path. And that to me really highlights um not only the importance of medicines like psilocybin, but the importance of self-discovery, sharing with others, uh the importance of, in a sense, community. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah. There's um there's an intellectual understanding and an intellectual belief. And then there's understanding a belief that's rooted in experience. And once you've had the experience, it's easier to distinguish between the intellectual and the experiential. But until you've had that experience, it's harder to to make that distinction. Yeah, that's true. So maybe maybe you can take me back, Jeff, uh, to your your first experience. Uh and I'll definitely be interested in hearing more, but I believe you've had two experiences now.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, I've had two separate ones. I've had that was a two-day, and then there was another one that was a one-day.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And I think those were the other two main ones.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

So you started explaining the setting and uh how you shared the the first experience, both with some familiar faces to you that made you feel comfortable, and also some other people that you didn't know yet, but that were attracted to the same space, uh perhaps with their own goals. Right. Um Do you have a sense of how much you consumed?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

I do. Uh so the first night I was um feeling a little bit more uh cautious. And so they said that you know there's there's a couple of different possibilities. Uh one was golden mushroom or golden teacher. Golden teacher, yeah. The other was penis envy. And so I went with the golden teacher, and I started with uh was it four grams? Significant dose? At significant dose. I um my friend went with penis envy at four grams. And this is there's some humorous stuff. Uh my cousin, who had done mushrooms before, was I think he had maybe two grams, and he was in kind of his own uh space of nirvana or you know, enjoyment to the point where I was getting distracted and thinking, what am I doing? You know, why am I so serious here? Yep. And and I thought, well, maybe this isn't enough. So they called at one point for you to come up and if you wanted more. And so I went up and I said, I don't think this is working. And as soon as I said that, of course, I was having difficulty speaking and articulating anything. And so they gave me two more grams. And I So by this point you were up to six. I'm up to six. Okay, yeah. And so I went back, and then there was this moment where I was looking over the uh the yurt, and there's this really interesting kind of skylight in the center, and so you you know, a lot of your focus is on that. But I was looking around the the general part of the yurt, and everyone and everything became a tapestry, like woven into the walls, and then I looked to my cousin, and he was part of that tapestry, and I realized, okay, I'm in a I'm in a different uh kind of state of things now. And um and I, you know, my friend next to me put I think he put uh some garbage into the tea uh cup that I was drinking out of.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Okay, that was actually I don't want to cut you off, but that was something I was curious about. Was did you consumed it as a tea?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I consumed that as a tea, yeah. And so there are bits at the bottom they said to crunch those up. Sure. And so as a tea, I went down fairly easily. And I think the other thing that I found useful is they said to have an orange or a tangerine with it. Interesting to cut some of the acid acidity and maybe to prevent nausea. And so I didn't get sick. Uh so you know, the absence of something, you know, it helped, I think. But you were fasting going into it. I was fasting going into it as well. So uh so I drank it as a tea, and I remember my yeah, my friend put just a piece of garbage into the teacup, and I think there was a moment of annoyance, you know, like, why are you doing this? And then, you know, the teacher started kicking in and saying, Why are you so annoyed by that? That's so that's so ridiculous. So I started laughing, and just I couldn't stop laughing at how stupid my initial thought was of all things to be focused on or worried about. And so that was that was kind of me getting in out of maybe out of my ego, out of my but I realized so later in the night. I well, they had told us before, they did a great job of prepping us. And so they said that you're gonna remember everything. But I don't think I believed them. And so some things were coming to me, almost like little mantras or little things like that. One of the things that came out of that night was was beautiful. It was uh basically life is beautiful when you allow yourself to feel things. It was just a simple thought, right? But it just comes into your head.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

And with all of the the beautiful kinds of um images that get associated with that, and I can't even describe them. They're so vivid and so, you know, uh, I don't know, so colorful. Yeah. Um, and so you know, um at one point I went outside to your it wasn't encouraged to stray too far, but I went outside and the whole ground looked electric and it was it was ice on the ground. Oh wow, but just seeing that ice uh glittering and sparkling, it was incredible. It was incredible, but I was still fighting my brain, which was saying, this is not real, you know. My brain is still kind of battling, it's had a lot of conditioning, it's had a lot of conditioning. Eight years of you know, MA and PhD, just do a number on it. That's right. It makes you really critical, makes you very critical. So, what did I do? I took my notebook and a pen, and I went outside and I was trying to write down some of the things that I was experiencing. And what was interesting and telling is as I was writing, trying to write these things down, it looked like I was writing into sand. And then the sand was backlit. Yeah, and I couldn't read anything that I was writing. Yeah, I could feel the struggle, and so I'm thinking, what is happening here? And so I immediately closed the book, and my reflection on that was yeah, stop trying to overthink this, almost surrender to it, stop fighting it because that was a form of fighting it, right? Trying to capture it, almost capture it, yeah, in the moment. In the moment, and it was kind of almost arrogant in some ways. So I put that away, and the rest of the night went you know really well in the sense that I did I brought a drum, and so I did sing at some point, and it's amazing, I almost forgot how to drum in that moment. I was thinking, how do I do this? Yeah, and but the song uh I sang a uh a Mi'kmaq song that had been gifted to me. Um, and so the song I'd never put so much heart into it before, and so it was it was amazing just to feel that. And I only had one song in me because I just put everything into that one song, and so it was just incredible, and then that spurred some other folks, including my friend, to uh share a song as well, and it was just uh yeah, just a beautiful night, no doubt, uh, but I didn't go as deep as I was hoping, but I also had seen the impact of penis envy on my friend, where when they said at about midnight, they said, Okay, well, you know, it's time to wrap things up. What time do you think you got started? I think it was about eight o'clock. And he and I looked at each other and he goes, I'm just getting started. I don't know what they're talking about. I'm just getting started. Uh, this isn't wrapping up for me. So we're both laughing. Sure. Struggling to walk a bit, uh, and just, you know, we'd stop and start laughing and you know, and continue. But I could tell that he was in a um uh probably a more intense place than I was. Mine was a little bit gentler, and so I was able to go into um a room full of folks and and share some food and some conversation. Um whereas he he felt uh that he had to stay away from from a crowd. Yeah. And so he and I talked a bit and he went to his car, right? And he had this this amazing, I won't share it because it's not my story, but he had this amazing kind of epiphany, if you will, about his own um identity and his own connections.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

And so it was amazing, but I saw the impact it had had on him, and so um, and I I read the next day, I read what I was trying to write, and it was just it was almost gibberish, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

It was yeah, but I can tell in our conversation that you you captured all the right details. You you didn't need that pen and paper. Exactly. I mean, the first thing that came to my mind when you're talking about the garbage in the teacup is just uh we get so attached to our hangups. Yes. And from the little bit that you've mentioned about your intention coming in and and what you were thinking about there. I think that's uh that makes sense that uh you had to go through that little bit of of the journey and that you walked away with that as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was powerful. Yeah. And you know, that was it was a that was a perfect first night. And so I kind of went about the second night with the idea of more of the same. I'm gonna do four grams of of uh um the golden teacher. So I went up to the people running it, and who were kind of you know, one's a counselor, one's yeah, they they both are um very experienced. And they said, we'd like you to do four grams of penis envy tonight. And I was I was a little scared because I'd gone up thinking, okay, we had lots of laughs last night. It was it was very um, it was light, fairly light. I mean there were some intense moments, but it was fairly light. You know, comparatively speaking, compared to what I saw my friend experiencing next to me. Yeah. So I knew he had had the penis envy. So we started with four grams of penis envy and went back, and I said, this is what they recommend, yeah, recommended, so that's what I'm gonna take. Um I'm a little worried. He was switching gears, he was taking the golden teacher that night. Oh, interesting. And so he's he kind of switched over. My cousin was just doing the same the same thing. It was a little bit more, I think for him, a little bit more recreational. Yeah. Uh, which was fine. Um and so, you know, I I had this penis N V and I took four grams. Similar thing, I kind of, you know, you wait a while, and and then things seem to emerge.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

There's a there's a period of time where there's always some questioning. Yes. And then there's a period of time where there are no questions anymore. It's clear that uh something has changed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, it's kind of, you know, you're you're questioning, you know, is this really happening to me? Do I take this? Yeah. And then all of a sudden, yes, it's it's happening. I'm in the heart of this. And so the um the folks who were leading this would play music. And so, you know, there was at times I saw like black spots all over everyone. And I could see the music and how that was unfolding. So on this particular night, I uh they'd given me a chance to use, I forget, I think it was Selenium or something like that, to cut any ties that you had that were unhealthy relationships. So I chose to cut a tie. And the effect of that was almost immediate, where I uh began to grieve, began to to cry. And keep in mind, you know, that I, you know, the way I grew up was you know, it's probably similar to a lot of um men or you know, uh male presenting folks, is that you know, when you're crying, you're showing weakness. And so that's kind of how I grew up.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

And so as a result, I didn't really express my emotions in that same way. Yeah, 50-some years, right? It's a lot of life. It's a lot of life. It's you know, it's not to say I didn't cry at all, but I didn't fully express those feelings of grief. Yeah, and and so I began to cry, and it was grieving the end of a relationship, but then it morphed into the teachers, the the ancestors showed me how my daughter was experiencing this grief, and so I was crying even more to see the heartbreak that she experienced. Yeah, so it was taking me outside of just myself and showing how others were affected. And totally what a beautiful teaching. And it was a harsh teaching, but it was a beautiful teaching, and so it was I can only describe it as waves upon waves of grief to the point where I, you know, I was I was kind of saying to myself, okay, this wave, this must be the last one. Yeah, and then another wave comes, right? And so at one point I left the uh the urit to go outside, and I was kind of having, you know, just expressing some of my thoughts, but I was also, you know, I was uh yeah, I was crying, I was mourning. And uh I was by myself for a bit, and then and I remember my friend came to check on me and he goes, Hey, are you alright? I go, Yeah, I'm fine. Sure. The same old thing, right? Yeah, right back at it, right back at it, and so kind of brushing off, in a sense, my emotions when in fact I'm having a bit of a moment here, yeah. So, and I I would probably only recount this on your podcast, because I think anyone outside of that context would not fully appreciate it. So I came to a I was sobbing, I came to the cedar tree, and I reached out, and the cedar tree, I can only describe it as held me up. The cedar tree held me up. Such a foundation. And began caressing me with the branches. It was so beautiful. Like caressing me, holding me. The message I was getting is it's okay to stumble. It's okay to stumble. And I could see the tree breathing. I could feel the tree. And so, you know, this is what you know we were talking about earlier. Sometimes you you say, Yes, those are this, that's a cedar nation, that's a tree, it's a living thing. But I'd never experienced the cedar in that way. And it was beautiful. I don't know how long I was there. Timeless. It was timeless. So at some point, my cousin and friend came out, and they were sitting by the fire, and so I was uh sitting down next to them, and they were comforting me. And it was such a beautiful thing. I still get teary-eyed thinking about it. It was such a beautiful night, and I'm looking at this fire. The fire, if it's possible, the fire looked like it was burning cold. Burning cold. Yeah, it was like burning cold. And I said, This is the coldest fire I've ever seen. And so, you know, we were experiencing this together, and at one point I told my cousin, I said, his mom had passed on uh probably about 15 years earlier. I said, Your mom's here with us tonight, and and he began to break down a bit, and it was just so we went in and we we sang some drum songs, and I felt the full weight of my ancestors there. I was almost like they were, I felt them almost as if they were smiling, as if they were enjoying themselves. Yeah, I could almost tangibly feel that it was just beautiful. I wouldn't trade that moment for anything, yeah. And and but I was still in a in a kind of uh emotion of sorrow and loss, and it wasn't just for this relationship, it was just going beyond that a life time of mourning in the sense finally having an outlet, finally having an outlet, and so I didn't want to, I couldn't be around anyone other than my two, you know, and my cousin and my friend. I didn't want to socialize, you know, it's the same thing. They said, okay, well, you know, let's make our way to get some food. I'm not hungry, I don't want to see anyone, I want to just be on my own to experience this, but also um I don't want to um, how would you say it? I don't want to have conversation with people. I'm in my own world in a sense. Yeah. And so I stayed that way for quite some time. I don't even know, you know, till three, four in the morning. Maybe. Uh remembered all of it. Yeah, saw the impacts that some of my actions had had on other people. Uh it allowed me to reflect on those things. And if I were to describe it, it was almost like yeah, granted, this is gonna vary. I don't want to make it sound like it's a hard and fast rule, but it was like eight to ten months of therapy in one night. Like in the sense of the release, the trust, the visit with your ancestors. It was it was just beautiful. Yeah, that's all I can describe it as.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yeah, these conversations are to get at the root of your experience, my experience, our guests' experience. Yeah. They're not a prescription to other people. Exactly. Um I mean, eight to ten months of therapy is gonna affect one person one way and another person another way.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Exactly. Yeah. So it's for me, it was it was probably the equivalent of that. Um it was the equivalent of a lot of conversations kind of put into one night.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

And experience. I mean, that's what was missing, right? It's one thing to talk in an office, it's another thing to have that vibrant experience and to feel things, and to be allowed to feel things.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

And it turned out my friend was having challenges having well expressing his feelings. And so seeing me and seeing that release kind of inspired him.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

So at one point he asked the the people running it, he said, you know, I'd like permission to feel things. And, you know, permission granted. Yeah. You go right ahead. You go ahead. But for me, it was um, you know, such a powerful, in a sense, shift from the way I've I've experienced life to that point to moving forward. And I'll tell you what happened after that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Well, so much of your experience is relatable. Yeah. Some of the specifics that I may have focused on in trips of mine in the past might be different, but the feeling of messages coming through in a gentle way. You know, here we are shaking our entire being up. Yes. And and yet there's a there is a simplicity to the message. Yeah. The messages are I I have yet to experience a message that's been like work for me to understand. All of a sudden, things that are work for me elsewhere come through in an easy way. Um I'll forever remember one of my trips where the message was really like it's okay. Like uh it's a chaotic world. Yeah. And that's okay. You can be strong in this chaos.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

And um at that particular time of my life, that was a really important thing for me to hear phrased in that particular way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Yeah, they it's almost like we're given digestible little tidbits. That's right. That's right. You know, almost catered to the person. Well, it is catered to the person, our spirit. It's almost like feeding your spirit, and they I think the ancestors give us what we can handle, and they give us something that we can remember. We're forgetful people and something that we can use to draw on, and they're they're very pragmatic. They're very I found them all to be very straightforward. Yeah, and accessible. Yeah, it wasn't like a you know, objective one as to, you know, or hypothesis. Exactly. It was just very relatable and and and almost like you're talking with elders.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

And it pretty much is what you're doing. Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

And also talking with yourself. Yes. So these are things that um like that grief.

unknown 41:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

That was in you. Yeah. Just waiting for you to be ready for it to all come out and it was. This uh lubricated uh what needed to be so that you could feel that and had permission to be there with it. And obviously it's something that now when you do give yourself permission to talk about it, yeah, you feel it. Yeah, I do. I do. It's it's as if it just happened. Yeah. And a word that I didn't hear you say, but that's I hope you experienced uh is forgiveness. You you talk about some realizations that you have to let go of yourself a certain bit to understand how your actions may have impacted your daughter or impacted others. Yeah. But we're all humans bumbling our way through, and there are things that we will do, and there's things that we need to do that will impact other people. Absolutely. And it's important we recognize it, but also forgive ourselves for just being who we are and and finding our own way.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Yeah. Yeah, and I think the closest I came was the you know, that kind of uh statement, you know, uh it's okay to stumble. It's okay to falter a little bit. Uh but we've got you in this sense, the Cedar has me. And we'll hold you up if you need it. Um and so yeah, I did. I did learn to kind of stop being so hard on myself that a lot of what I have and that maybe what I was searching for was right within. And that's it, you know. Uh and and that you know, this experience gives me some openings. You know, as as hard as expressing that grief was, it gives me openings for different forms of happiness or joy. Right. So it's almost like that that cleansing. I Felt like you know, and you've probably heard other people say this, or you maybe you've said this too, you you feel a little bit like a kind of a wrung out dish rag. Sure. Right? By the end of it, it's like oh yeah, just kind of dried out and sitting here very vulnerable. But those teachings stay with you. And and you've you've been through quite an experience to to be able to articulate them and to express them and to really appreciate them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah. Um I love to hear from people what they bring back. Yeah. And it's clear how much you brought back from that one experience. Yeah. And uh took a lot of courage to go into that space. Uh with, you know, until you've had the experience, you really can't know what's coming. Yeah. And uh as far as the the towel, wringing out the towel, you know, something I've talked about on the pod before is that these substances are non-addictive. Yeah. And I think a large part of that is that you need to recover from wringing out the towel. Yes. That's a healthy process, and then you you go back into your day-to-day. You go back to being who you are in your world with your relationships and your purpose. And hopefully these lessons fortify so that we can be better versions of ourselves as we move forward. Yeah. And then from time to time we return uh for new lessons and new fortification. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Yeah, that the the um people running it, you know, running this particular session basically described me as being like a soft shell crab after the experience. So uh that I was vulnerable, so you know, I was getting on the ferry and you know, in a whole different state of mind, and to watch out for the seagulls, you know, in life uh that are gonna peck on you and try to uh expose that vulnerability. And so basically be careful, be guarded. And so re-entry is an important part of it. Yeah, reintegration, yeah. Yeah, kind of re-entry or reintegr reintegration into the chaos. Um, you know, we have this almost like this uh Cherokee's use of word dohi, which means peacefulness or tranquilness. Uh, but it also means at the pace of nature. So it's a healthy pace. It's not always gentle. So that's that's part of it. Nature is not serene or always tranquil, but it's a pace that is uh is healthy or workable. Yeah. And to go from that to a chaotic pace is is tough, right? Yeah. So that was that was a another part. So as kind of after this first experience, you know, I in a sense I relearned how to grieve, or maybe learned how to grieve for the first time. And shortly after that, a month and a half later, my friend uh uh Tomasing uh from Sartlip, a good friend of mine, passed away. So here I'm being shown um in this case it was Sainch, you know, kind of a grief uh ceremony, but as my friend. So and then um two months after that, my younger brother passed away at 52. Devastating, right? For sure. And it was almost as if I had been preparing, I was being prepared for those tragic events. It was it was wild, right? Thinking, what is happening here, right? Uh and and so those hit me hard, but I was able to express my grief. That was the difference, and I was able to celebrate their lives as well. That's right, and so you know that was that was a connection that was really clear. Um I don't think everything is that clear with these things, but those teachings matter, right? Those teachings are valuable, and so uh yeah, I'm I spoke, I actually did it two more times, two more sessions, so once a year. Returning to the returning to that same requirements uh different group, smaller, more bare bones. And uh it was just as powerful, yeah. Reconnected with the tree. Yeah, amazing. Uh at one point, I don't know if it was a soliloquy or you know, some sort of, but I was just talking to the tree and talking about how the tree asked for so little from us. Uh, and we give even less than that. We give nothing, and the tree asks for so little in terms of recognition to be honored, and so it was just that connection and that really drove that that experience, and and it thrives, it thrives, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

The tree continues to be that tree, exactly. Whether we've grown to the point where we can give it the gratitude it deserves, it will just keep showing up the next day and being that tree.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

It will, with or without our gratitude, yeah, and so now I I do take extra time when I'm near a cedar tree, the the branches kind of brush up against me, I slow down. Awesome. And I won't forget that that teaching. Whatever that was meant to be, uh I'll I'll take it for you know the value that it has in my life. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is beautiful, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Um yeah, I can't help but think about so many of my own experiences and as I've learned my way uh using this medicine. Like I wouldn't say envy is the right word. I love that you were able to step into it feeling a sense of safety with some sort of leadership in the experience. Yeah. Uh one question, I guess, that I think I know the answer to, but the person that was facilitating, yeah were they sober?

SPEAKER_00 51:18

They were. Yeah, they they purposely didn't uh partake. And I think that's important as well. Uh they had a couple of other people that were helping that would take smaller doses, yeah. And that's fine, but you need some folks there that are experienced. Um, at least I needed that. I don't think that I don't want to make this prescriptive, but um, I needed some folks that were experienced and had um the awareness of maybe what I was going through without you know the um immersion in that experience at that time. Yeah. And they they were able to uh they set a tone. They set a tone, especially the music that they would play um and sing, and you know they they really made sure that people were okay. But if it wasn't for my friend and my cousin, I think I would have been it would have been an even bigger battle for me to express that grief.

SPEAKER_04 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I felt safer or safe, you know, safe enough to, or comfortable enough to just fully express that. And it's interesting that that was such a big fear for me, right, my whole life, and to show how not only beautiful that expression can be, but also how healthy it is, and how um in a sense that's a life teaching. Yeah, and so it was it was wonderful. Uh and the subsequent sessions, which I won't go into as much detail, but the subsequent sessions, you know, on an annual basis, I treated the same way. And they were wonderful. Um, you know, I I um you know had moments where I realized I was speaking more from my head and not from my heart. So I would move my hand down to my heart to speak just as a reminder. Beautiful. And just again, I was exhausted the following day. Um it was I had my in a sense, my uh what did it call it a formula? I had the dosage that I needed, which was four grams and v.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

So something that's different about your experience I've never gone back for that second day. Oh yeah. Because my experiences have like I wouldn't I mean I have used psilocybin recreationally, and in fact, I now know myself well enough to understand what kind of dose is right for certain situations. I feel like even recreational isn't really a fair word to use, but I'll go uh see live music. Sure. And I know how much psilocybin I can take in that environment where I can still have a heightened experience and discover new aspects of myself, and that might be euphoria. Yeah. May not be hard, you know? Yeah. And when I'm going to do a larger dose, it's either by myself or it's with trusted people.

unknown 55:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Uh and I'm fortunate, like uh I give thanks every day. I know I know men across this continent that um share these understandings and have sought their own teachings, and when life brings us together, we may share in these experiences together. And uh it's been such a gift for me. Um but I haven't had this type of experience that you're describing, where there is somebody there who uh can lead you through, can help you make a determination how much is the right amount for you. Right. Uh these uh it's a real advantage.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

I think it was. I you know, I was coming to this later in life, and so not knowing how I might respond. And so I was able to rely on some people that were really knowledgeable, that were trusted, and so yeah, I felt I felt pretty good about that. Um yeah, and I I don't think I would do two days again.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Okay, so the second and third experience of yours was just one night.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Just the one night, yeah. And I think because that's that's plenty. It really is. It really is. You don't need multiple days, and I I think that was almost uh well it was I think it was good for that first time. Yeah, because I learned a lot about myself, but I don't I didn't in subsequent times I've just done one night.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

I think I mean four grams of golden teacher is still uh a lot of psilocybin going in there, but I think you went in the right direction from golden teacher to penis envy where you were able to get a good sense as to what you were in for before deciding to go further with the penis envy. Yeah. And this is something that's uh like an interesting opportunity in the modern day. Uh when I was younger, mushrooms were mushrooms. That's the way that you got them. You didn't know are these gonna be strong. That was part of that uncomfortable anticipation of like who knows.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yeah. I'm no expert on drug policy. We we're in an interesting world with gray markets and what have you, but you can go into a store now and purchase different strains, and there's places you can go where the people behind the counter are knowledgeable. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

The the knowledge that the folks that were leading you through this had they aided your experience.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I could have experimented on my own and I would have had very different experiences. I'm not saying that they would be bad, but they would be different.

unknown 58:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

And they wouldn't have been this one kind of almost laser focused me to a place where um I could maybe experience the most change or experience the most impact visiting with those ancestors. It's almost, yeah. It was, and I think if I had done just one night, the golden teacher, I wouldn't have had this subsequent night where I really went deeper.

SPEAKER_04 58:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

And so for that particular time, it was great. And then now it's kind of like, okay, penis envy, you know, four grams. That will be my teacher for the for the evening. And so I don't really need to second guess it. I know that it'll have an immediate impact. I almost think it it's almost like it remembers you in some some interesting way. Uh it's like, oh, it's this this guy again. That's right. Uh let's see what we can do tonight. You know, see what needs to happen. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you've experiences too where I'm I usually go in with some intentions, and those intentions are kind of thrown out the window at some point. That's right. Like, you know, this is what you need. It's I didn't intend, I didn't go with an intention of I need to learn how to mourn. Yeah. I I went in with, I think I was talking about procrastination or something like that to resolve that. No, that's not what you need. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

So they you you went in with a closer target.

unknown 59:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Ah, procrastination. That seems like something I can tackle.

unknown 59:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Yeah. Let's see what we can do. That's almost like you're uh dialing up some, you know, uh a service. That's right. It's like, no, this is not a dial-up service. This is a this is an experience that is tailored just for you. That's right. But it's not tailored based on your stated desires or needs. It's based on what the ancestors think. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

You've plugged into the source and opened the channel, and now exactly. Here comes the energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Here it comes, you know, take it or leave it. Um, you know, and I I learned too to fairly quickly to surrender to it. And I don't know if that's the right word, but to give yourself to it rather than to fight it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

I have to say, like, so I haven't yet eaten four grams of penis NV. I have been inching my way towards larger doses purposefully, preparing myself, making sure that I'm confident going in. Which even in itself is like I I question the value of the preparation. It seems so necessary, but also seems like am I limiting the breakthrough by inching my way? But here I am. And my most recent experience with penis envy was three and a half grams, and what I do is I make a tea. Okay. Um, and it was interesting hearing sort of what was prescribed for you. Uh I make a tea, I let it seep for about 20 minutes, and I squeeze in um typically half a lemon. Oh yeah.

unknown 1:01:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

Very similar, yeah. Uh I've heard it's much easier on the stomach, which I've experienced, but I've also heard because you're drinking it as opposed to just chewing the mushroom, that it cuts some of that time uh before it kicks in. Interesting. That used to be really challenging for me, that feeling of like, oh, I thought I was in for a big night and I'm not feeling anything, and do I have the patience to wait, or should I eat more? And uh so I appreciate the tea because it helps me get to it a little bit quicker, but it really has the potential to come quick. Yeah, my experience with that dose was that it came very quick. Like I had this moment where I stood up and my I was in my home and had this moment of just utter appreciation for my my reality, and this is where I live, and this is where I get to spend my days. And it was such a big, beautiful feeling. Yeah. But then very quickly I realized, oh, I'm just climbing this ladder, I'm nowhere near the peak, and the feeling got so big. Uh I thought I was gonna be sick, wasn't spent some undeterminable amount of time, could have been minutes, could have been a half an hour, where I really had to ground myself in what was happening. And then I went through a few hours of you know, with with psilocybin, uh I'm assuming you experience the same thing, and it's a little different than some of the other psychedelic drugs. There there really are peaks. Yes. It's like an undulation that happens where you go into a place that's so big, and then you can kind of come out of it and quickly have a reflection on how big it is, and then you don't realize that you're just going back into the bad place, and these little flows. I will I'll have music on. For me, uh, in recent times, it's always been The Grateful Dead. Uh, they're a band that is much more than a band to me. Um, and they become this anchor to the world. Uh yeah. And there's times only after I come back out of my peaks that I'm like, oh yeah, there's that sound. I know I've been hearing it the whole time. Thank you for anchoring me. But then I do go through where it's like I'm trying to release. How much can I release? And I think for me, one of my challenges doing it alone, not having somebody there. Um you have somebody there watching over you, I think that it can give you more permission to let go. Yes. Just go. This person's got my back.

unknown 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

I got into a place where I felt the universe had my back for sure. Oh wow. But I felt that the universe was on both sides of this divide. And there were times where I'm like, I don't know how much further I can let go. Right. Because I don't want to say goodbye to this earthly realm forever. Yeah. I want to come back there. Yeah. So for me, I don't I don't really have a plan for the next time per se. I I yearn to let go more.

unknown 1:05:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

And it'll be interesting for me as to how I get there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah, it's uh it's uh sounds amazing. And I think having someone else there that was knowledgeable um uh had usually I've been pretty lucky that person is knowledgeable and is also a counselor. And I haven't really had to draw on that person in the sense of you know intense therapy in the moment. But just knowing that they were there was enough for me to allow myself to like go a little bit further. Yeah, it gives you the confidence. And so, yeah, that's interesting what you said about music because my cousin at one point said, uh, can we change and we we kind of laughed later, but he said, Can we change this music? It feels like it's bullying me. I couldn't I couldn't relate to that, you know, based on the music that was playing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:19

Uh, you know, it's kind of like flute music or something. But you you gave me a thought, you know, about the music anchoring you, uh, you know, with The Grateful Dead, and I was thinking, it would be really interesting for me to listen to uh either drum songs or Cherokee choir in Cherokee during that time. And I wonder what the impact might be and as in terms of grounding.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

And and so, yeah, I was always thinking about that and different ways to go deeper. It's tough. You know, last time we did uh last time I did it was um with just the mushrooms themselves dried out, and they kind of called it old school because that's the way probably ancestors took it, and you chew it up, and the juices go down, and it goes into your bloodstream quicker uh and uh with less. Um although I didn't experience this, it you know, the idea was it's quicker into your bloodstream and also a quicker kind of period of impact. I I found it still lingered. And it there's always that moment where you know, I was talking to someone at the last one and uh they had to go assist with someone else. I said, Oh, go ahead. This is I'm just about done here. What what famous last words, right? Yeah, no. It's like no, we're not done. Yeah. It was just, you know, we're not, we're just getting started. Yeah. But you know, you could because you come out of that, uh, you know, whatever it is, you come out of the universe or you come out of that wave, and you have that brief moment of reflection. You think, okay, well, I think this has subsided. And then there was another wave. And that's what I experienced with the grief as well. And I was I kept thinking, does this keep going and going? Like this is endless. It was beautiful, but it was also kind of exhausting, right? And and but it wasn't the beauty of it, was that you aren't so self-aware that you make it about yourself, you make it about the teaching, and you make it about that experience. And especially when you have people that you trust.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Yeah, it's setting yourself up in that way where you're with people that you trust and you're in an environment that you feel safe and in the warm embrace of the cedar. Yes. Uh it allows for the come down to be as gradual as it needs to be. And again, I was using reintegration. It's just integration. You're right. What is it that um these these new lessons that are coming to you? Yeah. Once you're coming down, you can begin to fit them in in a beautiful way.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

It's true. Well, and I think I come back to that quote from Henrietta, you know, where it's we're the spiritual being seeking a human path. It's like we, yeah, I got back on the ferry okay, I'm seeking a human path again. That's right. You know, I was in the spiritual realm, and now I'm in a yeah, much different place where the spiritual day-to-day life isn't recognized or appreciated in the same way. Because it's faster-paced, it's uh it's all about expediency, it's all about money, and you know, all those things. And so it was um, oh, you know, there's always a challenge, but it's also awareness. Like, this is this is where I live 99% of the time, sadly.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

I I struggle with that sadly, part. Um a lot of the a lot of my thoughts as you were talking earlier in the pod about uh the jumping on the ferry, but also the feeling of connection with your cousin and your friend. Yeah. The mushroom has a way of showing us that we are all one. Yes. And that we're individuals. Yeah. We 98% of the time we're individuals. Now, I'd like it to be a little bit more balanced, perhaps. But there is something about this earthly experience where it's important for us to be individuals. Like you're you're part of the same something that I am part of. And it's a pleasure to be able to commune in that way. But there's something that is so you that it's also a pleasure to get to know you. You know, it's it's different than me. Right. And uh and that's that balance of uh we only have this singular experience. We tap into the universal and it fills us. Yeah, it does. And then we can go back to trying to cope in this individual world, making connections and feeling the strength of others.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

Yeah. Yeah, and it should to me it shows how relational we all are. Not just to other humans, but to plants, animals, the earth itself. The ancestors. The ancestors. And they're with us, so I I you know it's almost like this confidence that comes out of these experiences of hey, I know my ancestors have my back. Exactly. Um you need to be for your daughter. Exactly. Because your ancestors have you. They have my back. I can still stumble, and it's not the end of the world, but get back up and keep moving towards um towards those really positive, healthy expressions. Exactly. Yeah, and I think, yeah, it's life is beautiful when you allow yourself to feel things. And I didn't, you know, that was the first night, that was before the penis envy where I really did feel things. And it was almost like this just beautiful set of lessons just laid out, preparing me for, you know, in this case, uh, two yeah, the the passing of two people that were so important to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Also, I couldn't help but listen to that story, and something that's been rolling around in my brain is just every day preparing you for the next day. Yeah. When I was a young parent, it felt like this tiny bit of wisdom that I actually captured was don't be afraid of who your kids are gonna be when they're teenagers and how are you gonna handle that. Just know that today is preparing you for tomorrow. Yes. And at this stage of my life, I I said to a friend who recently lost his dad that it feels that um every day has been to prepare me to help my parents at this stage of their life. Yes. And ultimately, that's just preparing me for when I'm at that stage of life too. Absolutely. That's a wonderful way of putting it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

Yeah, it's a preparation. The preparation, you know, maybe things that we've forgotten over the years. So it really puts us into it makes us more aware, more attuned to those little things in life that are so important to keep us going each day. That's you know, I I was looking at everyday stuff, you know, especially around resurgence before this, but now I'm looking at everyday forms of grief, right? Everyday forms of expression of emotion. Those are just as important, not more important, to feel things. And so, absolutely. That it prepares us for Cherokees would say the path of souls, where you go on this journey after after your your human body is is uh passed on. And it's still a challenge. You know, it doesn't it doesn't just morph into this this nice easy trip. You're still learning, you're still engaging. Yeah, hopefully we're more ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

We're more ready. But uh I agree it's um it just opens up to allow for bigger challenges or the next next stage of challenges.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:17

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know, that's that's yeah, not to make these really gross generalizations, but I think a lot of folks view freedom as freedom from responsibility and freedom from those obligations that we carry. And I view freedom in quite the opposite way it's those obligations, those sacred, you know, relationships that make us more free. Yeah, amen. And and so yeah, that our our freedom is is bound to those relational responsibilities. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

I feel um just more capable of showing up to take on that which I am responsible for, to recognize it and to be there. Yeah.

unknown 1:16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

Yeah, it's really helped with parenting. Now that I am parenting teens, my son's already in his 20s. Yeah, I feel ready to be here now.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

That's awesome. Yeah, I've got a uh a teenage daughter, so it's a challenging time in the sense of with all teens, right? There's a there's a challenge, but yeah, this has helped me be here, be more present, be more there for support rather than the lecture-filled dad. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's it you know, again, the psilocybin helps with those teachings of get over yourself. Stop making this about you. This is about their experience. Yeah, much more. Yeah, much more than any of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Jeff, I could talk to you for much longer, and I look forward to this conversation continuing uh off the air in the days, weeks, and years to come. Absolutely. Um this has been an epic episode. Running a little longer than some, but uh the conversation's just been so easy and wonderful. Uh I'm gonna wrap it up. Um thank you, Brian. Uh it's an honor. Well, listener, you've made it through to the end of another great conversation on the Everyday Trippers podcast. These conversations are meant to be informative and entertaining. Choosing to take psychedelics is a personal choice and not for everyone. Indeed, no medicine is right for all of us. And I encourage you to think carefully about whether mushrooms, LSD, or any of the other mind-opening and altering substances that we speak about in this episode and others of this podcast, whether they're right for you. If you have a doctor you trust who is open-minded, I suggest speaking to them. And while that may be hard to find, hopefully you can connect with a friend or a loved one with experiences of their own. And if not, please keep coming back to hear from our guests and let our stories help you decide. Much love, listeners. Until the next time, you know.