The Threat Podcast
The Threat podcast will analyze and discuss the most pressing, yet not always so visible, threats to global security and the movements and ideologies that fuel extremism and terrorism. We’ll take listeners to the frontlines of these battles, both at home and abroad, and we’ll talk with the key players in law enforcement, intelligence, diplomacy, and academia who are working to counter these threats.
The Threat Podcast
The Millionaire Marxist: Inside the Fergie Chambers Case
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On July 10th, Spanish police arrested Fergie Chambers — heir to the Cox Enterprises empire, self-proclaimed Marxist-Leninist, and one of the most prolific funders of radical causes worldwide — while he vacationed with his family in Ibiza. The US wants him extradited. His wife says he's been charged with funding the Palestinian terrorist group, Hamas, which she denies. And the global left has rallied around him as a political martyr.
Hagar Chemali and Jay Solomon are joined on The Threat by Dan Adler of Vanity Fair, who spent extensive time with Chambers while reporting a landmark 2024 profile — meeting him in New York, then video-calling him from his new base in Tunis after he fled the US.
They discuss how Chambers cashed out $250 million in 2023 and channeled it through his Babochki Collective into causes ranging from Palestine to anti-police work in Georgia. They also explore his commune in rural Massachusetts; his role in the radicalization of a 21-year-old protégée, Calla Walsh, now operating out of Lebanon and Iran; the blurry line between genuine ideological commitment and "radical chic" spectacle; and why his extradition fight in a Spain openly hostile to the Trump administration could make him a global cause célèbre. Plus: the horseshoe question — why anti-imperialist rhetoric now echoes from both the far left and the far right.
Note: Chambers has not been convicted, and his indictment remains sealed. Much of what's discussed is allegation and open reporting.
To learn more about Fergie Chambers and his radical network, please read Dan Adler’s and Jay Solomon’s investigative pieces.
The Life and Times of Fergie Chambers by Dan Adler, Vanity Fair May 2024
The Radicalization of Calla Walsh by Jay Solomon, The Free Press March 2026
How Fergie Chambers Buit a Radical Funding Network and Landed in a Spanish Jail by Jay Solomon, The Free Press July 20206
Welcome to the Threat Podcast. I'm Hagar Shimali.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Jay Solomon.
SPEAKER_03On July 10th, Spanish police, acting on an extradition request from the U.S. government, arrested a millionaire funder of radical causes globally and an heir to the Cox Communications Empire, Fergie Chambers. The self-proclaimed Marxist was on holiday with his family in the island resort of Abiza, Spain, when Spanish forces nabbed him. Chambers' arrest has galvanized the global left around a man they see as one of the most important backers of the Palestinian cause. The Trump administration, meanwhile, targeted the 41-year-old as part of a broader campaign against what the White House sees as a rise in far-left terrorism globally. Chambers' wife says he's being charged with providing funds to Hamas, which she denies. I mean, it is crazy. You just wrote an article about Fergie Chambers for the Free Press, which I encourage readers to take a look at. We'll link to it in the show notes. How did you first come into it, though?
SPEAKER_01Well, I came into it through one of his understudies, a woman named Cala Walsh, who you know went from being sort of a progressive activist. She was in the New York Times, and she ended up essentially joining the Iranian information warfare department. She's based now between Lebanon and Iran. And I was just kind of really interested in who was this woman and how did she kind of get there? And reading backstories, of which we'll talk about later, was she had been at this kind of commune compound in the in the Berkshires in Massachusetts. And it was kind of part of her radicalization from being someone who was willing to be part of the political system, who was part of the senatorial race in Massachusetts, just eventually saying the whole U.S. political system is corrupt. I'm joining the revolution. And it was under this kind of tutelage of Fergie Chambers that I kind of found this was part of her path towards radicalization. So I got really interested in his story through Calla Walsh's story. And then since his arrest, I've been looking more into the role he's played in fund using this $250 million he cashed out on in 2023 to fund radical groups, particularly really focused in Gaza and other areas, but also globally. So it was I came into him through through Cala Walsh and the Fergie Chamber stories with his arrest has just gotten bigger.
SPEAKER_03It's just it's crazy to me having worked in counterterrorist financing in the US government because I feel as though there's this whole cadre of people now out there who don't realize either they don't realize that funding terrorist groups um is a crime, or they just feel as though they're not actually terrorist groups, and so they feel that their activities are justified. And I'm like, no, there's a law, there are laws about this, and it is gonna come back to bite you. And it's just fascinating. We're gonna talk more about it. Um uh so I don't wanna I don't want to get out ahead of it. Chambers' Life basically reads like a John Locar spy novel, and he's been featured in a major documentary at the Sundance Film Festival this year. And to discuss Chambers' life, we're really lucky to have on the podcast Dan Adler from Vanity Fair, who spent time with this with this radical while reporting an incredible profile on him that ran in April 2024. So I also encourage readers to check that out. We will also link to it. Jay's also gonna chime in since both of them have done a lot of work on him, as he's written now two pieces about Fergie and his band of co-works for the free press. Dan, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03Dan, let's start off, General. You uh you published an amazing profile of Fergie Chambers, as I mentioned, in April 2024 for Vanity Fair. So you were there really from the beginning, as it were. Can you set the scene a little bit for us? How were you drawn to him and what is he like a person?
SPEAKER_02Before anything happened with Fergie on a national scale, on an international scale, he was this sort of New York character who loomed large in uh people's imaginations. He went to St. Anne's, which is the alma mater of um, you know, lots of artists, writers, creatives, bohemians, uh, maybe Lena Dunham most famously, um, and that was someone who uh Fergie went to school with her at the same time, and he tells the story about how he got kicked out because um, according to him, which is this account is disputed by by some of his classmates, uh, according to him, she ratted on him for dealing drugs when he was in high school. So it was like this sort of like urban legend that this larger-than-life guy who was really, really by all accounts a true believer in communism, starting from the time really when he was in middle school, and then also an heir to this um, you know, immense fortune. This it was like this cartoonish contrast that um is just sort of a uh a joke in some sense, but also kind of like what's going on with this guy? This is someone who's a social media provocateur, um, you know, again, really, but by all appearances a true believer in the causes he supports. Um, but there was also this sense that um this is this rich kid running around. Um, you know, he by his own account, he's been very public about all of this, really struggled with drugs starting from a young age, um in and out of rehab, clashing with his parents, very um, very visibly online. Um, and it all sort of came to a head. I would say 2022 leading to 2023.
SPEAKER_03Dan, a huge part of Fergie's story is that he cashed out from his family inheritance of 250 million in mid-2023. How central is Fergie's money to his life and motivations? Because his indictment appears very much tied to how he spent this money in particular.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's hard to feel bad for anyone who, you know, has $250 million lying around. Um, but I do, I do think it represented and represents a real albatross. It's, you know, you have you have this um, you know, an immense, unthinkable fortune. Um, you know, both both before he divested um and and split from the family and then after. It's like, you know, what do you do with it if you're um you know a political person as he is, but then also just as a person in your day-to-day life, you you're sitting on this just unthinkable sum of money. Um what what's one to do? Obviously, you don't have to work. Um you have certain causes, certain relationships, you try to figure out um, you know, how to how to use these resources. Um and and then that aside, you know, one thing I wanted to do with the story that I wrote is um again, no, no one's gonna shed a tear for for someone with with those kind of resources. But I do you could sort of see in the family story um people really struggling, um, trying to find meaning, political purpose, spiritual purpose. Um, so I think it represented uh and a huge opportunity for him to fund some of the causes he believes in. You know, he and I had this back and forth about like, you know, should you just give all the money away right now? What's the point in keeping it? And um, you know, he has all his arguments about that. Um, but I think also just again, like as a person, um, he he has spent a lot of time trying to figure out understandably like what this means for him, like what the correct course of action is if you have this opportunity in front of you.
SPEAKER_03Jenny, can I ask you to comment about this a little bit as well? Because Jay and I, Dan, you may not be aware of this and listeners may not know, but Jay and I originally met when I was spokesperson for terrorism and financial intelligence at the Treasury Department, and Jay was an investigative reporter with the Wall Street Journal, and he really covered a lot of stories related to illicit finance all over the world. And so, you know, this and his piece, Jay, your piece also goes deep into the all the different types of charities and efforts that Fergie Chambers funded and allegedly funded, uh, including those that are that are very obviously directly tied to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Hamas, et cetera, Sami Dun, literally US designated terrorist organizations. So were you, Jay, what were you thinking when you were seeing all this, given the work that you've done, knowing the extent, you know, knowing our laws, knowing, understanding that, how did you take all that? Was it ideological for you? Was it was this a guy who doesn't understand the law?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess I've been really wondering like, does he did he understand it? Did he fly fly the coop because he knew he was about ready to get ensnared? I mean, like, this group Sami Dune, he openly funded Sam Sami Dune, but at the time he was funding it, it was not a designated terrorist organization. I think he he put out tweets in shortly after October 7th saying he was funding Sami Dune because he believes in their mission to help get you know Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners released. And then a year later it got sanctioned. So I don't know if did he keep doing it. I I don't know. But yeah, for me it was kind of unclear. Did he know what he was doing? I'm sure they're gonna probably say he wasn't funding, he was just funding you know, charities in that were operating in in in Gaza, and other, you know, the feds might say, well, these charities were related with the PFLP or Hamas. So I mean, the one reason I was really excited to get Dan on it because I never met him. It was hard to sort of understand his mentality, but it also it uh yeah, it sure felt like wow, he's he's really on the on the cusp. And same with Cal Walsh. Like, I'd assume at this stage she doesn't think she can come home. She's been too closely working with overtly desert like the IRGC in some of these groups. But with with Fergie, I couldn't really understand. But and then he goes, I mean, we'll talk a little later, but he leaves the US, he goes to Nisia, and then he goes to Ireland. Um so it didn't seem like I don't know, he was operating in like EU countries. It didn't seem like he was that worried about getting wrapped up, which he eventually did in Spain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, you know, I haven't been, um, it's not my specialty, I haven't been in the weeds of you know, like the exact nature of his financing and kind of what it does and doesn't mean from a potentially uh funding terrorism standpoint. Um, but we we did have sort of broader conversations about like how much he meant it. Um, because this again, going back to sort of the idea of him as this New York character and the and the sort of lore surrounding him, there was this sort of debate among former classmates, former girlfriends, just like, what is this guy capable of? Does he does he actually intend to do something violent or support something violent, or is it um, you know, cosplay? Um is it is it is it like if if it is radical chic, um, you know, what's what's the knock-on effect of that? Does it actually lead to financing, you know, Hamas? Um he he um, you know, I found him um, and I put this in my story, um a little bit bashful when it really came down to it. You know, we have this experience where we walk past uh a group of cops and he started oinking and uh sort of um set off this minor standoff between him and the cops in New York. Um and the next minute.
SPEAKER_03He started blinking like this.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And then the you know the cop got in his face and Fergie had to, I think um, hope I'm I hope I'm recalling this correctly. I think Fergie sort of spit in the direction of the cops, but not at the cops, and there was just, you know, it lasted two or three minutes. It wasn't anything um, you know, too terrible. We just we just attracted a lot of attention from people who were, you know, in the East Village eating eating outdoors. Um, but you know, it's like uh that's that's a thing people do if they're like, you know, you could be like an 18-year-old punk just trying to like um cause a little bit of a ruckus. Um and you know, he he texted me the next day saying, you know, I I was I was embarrassed by that. I sort of acted out in a way that I mean not to. And I would I would take interactions like that to mean um, yeah, is this someone who's gonna, you know, we one thing uh Jay and I have sort of emailed about, but um we're we're still trying to piece together is we know we haven't seen the indictment. I he he never really read to me as someone who um was gonna go to the extreme lengths that people thought he might. I thought a lot of the time the popular conception of him understandably outstripped what he was willing or able to do for in terms of you know real concrete political violence.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I want to let's I want to dig a little bit more into kind of giving the full picture of Fergie than when you were first reporting your piece. He was living in this compound in rural Massachusetts, uh, as I understand, with a coterie of would-be revolutionaries, basically. And so from the outside, it kind of felt like he had a Manson family vibe and a number of young women were living there with him. Uh, is that a fair assessment? Can you, you know, give us a little bit of insight into that as well?
SPEAKER_02So the the the Manson family, again, this goes to the bigger question of, you know, what what um in this guy's, you know, totally, you know, beyond belief life. What what's what's myth, what's lore, and what's real? Um here's what is real. Um Fergie Chambers paid $50,000, I believe it was, in bail for, I believe it was four young women between the ages of 18 and 27 who were arrested in a protest against Albert Systems, an Israeli weapons manufacturer, in um, I believe it was late 2023. So I think Kala was one of them, right? Kala was one of them. So what what happens, um what people see, and you know, he was he was aware of this, and he and I talked about this, is that it's this guy who, yeah, he has this communist collective. Um, there are these four young women, and um he's he's you know paying their bill. Um so and you know, some of the sort of online chatter was that, yeah, it has this massed family feel. I never I you know, I I talked to people who um had been to the to the to the collective. I talked to him a lot about it. Again, it was this sort of thing where he he would have all these ambitions and projects, um, but could never really seem to really find a way for them to gel. The most extreme thing that happened with this collective, as far as I could tell, and and talking to people who were adjacent to it, was you know, they they they marched through the Berkshires, a nice little town. Um, you know, it was like people who went to fancy liberal arts colleges and um, you know, uh were were kind of like do doing group activities. Um it it felt from the outside, the way people talked about it, a lot more extreme than it actually seemed. And um, you know, this this goes to one of the central questions I think with with him and his self-presentation is um, you know, I I don't think he necessarily minded people thinking that it was this um, you know, more uh outlandish um set of circumstances. I don't think he minded people talking about him in this um, you know, very um sort of um interested, um scared way.
SPEAKER_03So, Dan, you mentioned this um that he bailed these protesters out. You talked about the, you know, this uh uh action against this Israeli defense company. And uh so let's I want to unpack that a little bit because Hamas's terrorist attack on Israel in October 2023 really motivated Fergie and his comrades to escalate this anti-imperial struggle, right? They started to engage in quote unquote direct actions, which Jay and I talked about on the podcast. I've we both talked about this on the podcast before, um, which basically means taking direct action, some kind of action-oriented effort, whether it be violence or something else, to make your point, right? Beyond just statements or protests. Um so this included sabotage operations, as you mentioned. Did Dan, since you spoke to him, but did Fergie explain to you why the Palestinian cause was so central to his global vision? Because he expresses incredible hostility towards Zionists. I'll ask you that first because you spoke to him before October 7th. And then Jay, you know, because your article came out later, you know, almost two years later, two years later, I guess. Uh, you know, maybe you could opine on how you saw that trajectory evolve.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I'm I I'll inevitably, or you know, this is someone who whatever you think of him has really done a lot of the reading, you know, really spent time in sort of communist literature texts, um, which, you know, I I haven't. Um so I'll I'll try to sort of paraphrase um the way he explained it to me. It's a it's um he views Palestine as part of a a broad anti-imperialist project, and that's why his um causes have ranged from Palestine to Cuba. Uh, you know, he he went to Ukraine um to take uh Putin's side because he also viewed that as part of this um you know anti-imperialist struggle. Um so uh again, I'm I'm doing sort of like the uh the uh you know less than 101 version of it. Uh but I think the broader idea is that there is this sort of global axis of empire and supporting Palestine at this moment is one of the most pressing ways in which you can fight that axis.
SPEAKER_03Actually, Dan, you are actually really hitting the nail on the head here, in my view, because that is the threat here at hand. It is that anti-imperial view that and and anti-oppressor, anti-elite. And you're right, that often it uh it makes it the way these things look, Palestine just ends up being a cause celeb for it. Jay, what do you think about this?
SPEAKER_01Well, I know what when I was doing my piece on Kala, I found what was both interesting but a little bit scary is that she had a very, I don't know if the same with Fergie, she had a very black and white view. At first she got into it with it was very climate, and it was really a belief that like, you know, if we don't solve the climate crisis really fast, you know, humanity's not going to be around in 20 years or something. And then it flips, she really in her the way she talks very much, is like Zionism is a is an existential threat to humanity. It's you know, it's a linchpin of the imperial struggle. Even she links climate. If you don't deal with Palestine, you won't have climate justice. And you could see, if that's your worldview, how she moved from climate to like literally on online calling for the assassinations of Israeli officials. But when those two diplomats were murdered last year in DC, she was egging it on. So from callusing, it really was it's it's a very millenarian black and white view that like the struggle uh in against the Zionists is kind of absolutely central to the overall anti-imperial struggle, and you know, violence is required to win that battle. That's that's how she sees it. But maybe she got even more radical than Fergie. That's totally possible.
SPEAKER_02Just one other point along these lines, like one thing I wanted to do in my story, and you know, we we've we've used the term radical sheikh I think a couple times now, is um is to look at how this particular um conversation around Palestine plays out in elite spaces. Um Fergie, to his credit, in my opinion, was was aware that you know no matter what he did, um, he still is um, you know, again, he went to St. Ann's. Um, you know, he's in this very um it's still happening, but it really sort of crested, I would say, late 2023, early 2024, the the way that these conversations were unfolding at, you know, Harvard, Penn, wherever else. And I and I viewed Fergie's um Fergie's work as of a piece with that conversation about how people in these very elite spaces were trying to navigate um what the what they viewed as their complicity, what they viewed as their role in this um, you know, age of conflict.
SPEAKER_03So Dan, take us take us a bit, you know, before he gets to Spain, where uh he is arrested, um, he goes to Tunisia before that. So he essentially flees the United States in late 2023 in the wake of the arrests of three of his comrades. He relocates to Tunisia and converts to Islam. Dan, you then video chatted with Ferke from his new base of operations in Tunis. So, how would you describe his new life at that time? Um, how did how did he seem in general?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I remember it very vividly because I was trying to, it's exactly what you said. There were these arrests. And again, this is someone, you know, I was I was reporting on him and trying to kind of like get a sense of what was happening, and again, sort of what what he was actually capable of or had planned. And it was always hard because again, the the signal and the noise, it would always be everyone adjacent to him saying, like, oh, he's running from the FBI, and then all of a sudden you video chat with him and you know everything seems fine. Um, but so yeah, I'd been trying to track him down. I thought I was never gonna hear from him. We had some you know um reporting process. There's there's some um a little bit of some some points of contention, but finally I jacked him down. Um, you know, we'd been trying to set up a video call, and you know, he was in a nice apartment. Um I mean, I you know, I'm not I'm not uh familiar with all the um available real estate in Tunisia, but it looked sort of like uh, you know, higher end, sort of like sleek, modern. Uh he looked comfortable, he was eating a sandwich, I believe he was rolling a cigarette. Um and he seemed genuinely reflective. Um he was trying to figure out uh, you know, one thing he said to me that that um I put in my story is that he felt that um these these arrests of these of these young women had something to do with him and that he that he he could in some way be blamed. Um if these were four young women who, you know, uh I forgot the exact details, but um I think they sp they spray painted um the Elbert building, they broke some windows, um, you know, uh what uh whatever one's view of that, it wasn't, you know, no no one got hurt. Um and he wondered if um his his proximity to these young women Was what put them in this situation, which, you know, is of course um probably a reasonable concern. So he was trying to reckon with what his name meant, what his wealth meant, and what he should do next. I mean, one of one of those things is um, you know, he he he understood the ways in which it would be caricatured. He converted to Islam. He's someone who's always sort of been experimenting with um spirituality and sort of different paths in life. And um, you know, he was talking about everything from his relationship to weed, to his relationship to um, you know, he's a big fighting enthusiast, uh his relationship to training, um, and just trying to piece together. And um, you know, he had a new idea to, you know, he's a big sports fan to buy a soccer team. Um he's he seemed um like he was he was trying to find himself um in in in ways that he often has.
SPEAKER_03And so, you know, I'm I I'm very interested by this point that you just made about that he might have felt that his proximity to these women uh could have endangered them or could have landed them in, you know, arrested. And so Jay, because you wrote a piece, specifically a long piece for the free press, as we've mentioned, about Cala Walsh. Um, how do you think she was impacted by her time with Fergie? And give us an update on her latest.
SPEAKER_01I think she's similar to Fergie in the way Dan was saying, is like, and she's still only 21. She's incredibly well read. Like she's read her Marxist, you know, angles. She's she's into it. And you can she's done a lot of podcasts, a lot of them from Lebanon, where you could tell she really like studied what happened to them. And she's been pretty, she's like, we were too overt, uh, we were too kind of rel. You know, she's weird. Uh there's been some comments where she sounds like she was a little resentful to K Fergie in the sense like he flew the coop initially, and they were, you know, stuck in in going to trial and eventually going to prison only for two months. But but it she really seemed to study it and like learn from her that whole operation that it was too overt, that they needed to study more how to do these these um actions. She's you know, she does not shy away from the need for violence. But I I don't I think you know, she's really rallied to Fergie since his arrest, so she's not that embittered with him, but she really seemed to study from it like how can we promote our causes in ways that we won't get arrested. And, you know, are there different roles for others? She seems to think that her role, she's very good on social media, she's very good in information spaces. That's her role. But you could tell she's she's taken it in and trying to figure out, like, okay, you know, we were lucky we didn't get to prison because they they were originally going to charge her and these other girls with like years in prison. And you know, I think she was like, wow, I could have really been, I could have really been in there for a while. And I think part of the reason too, she's she's in Lebanon, like Fergie was in Tunisia, she didn't feel like she could do her work while in the US and that the forces were kind of encroaching her. She she writes about you know, every time she would go through security, whether she was going off to Cuba or where that you know they'd get grab her devices. So yeah, she learned. She definitely was learning from that experience. And whatever kind of maybe some bitterness to Fergie that he left doesn't seem to have lasted because she's really been out there defending him since the news of his arrest on July 10th.
SPEAKER_03It's so interesting to me, by the way, because as somebody who works a lot on Lebanon, I would not assume if I were fleeing the fleeing from the United States that I were to be safe there. Um the US and Lebanon have strong partnerships on this stuff. So it'll be it'll be interesting to see what happens. Um, I want to go back to the money question for a second a bit. Um, because after Fergie inherited this 250 million in 2023, he then set up an investment fund with the help of Cal Walsh and others called the Babotchki Collective. And the purpose of this fund was to essentially seed revolutionary and anti-imperialist causes globally. And it has also funded a lot of organizations in the Palestinian territories, as we've discussed. Um, Jay, can you tell us about more about Babocki? Because you wrote about it quite extensively in your piece and how it's related to his arrest.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the Babotchki collective is interesting because there's a Facebook post he made in November 9th, 2023. So while all this stuff is brewing these, these um sabotage on Elbit, and he's in a room with Calla Walsh and another of the women who did some of these collective actions, some of them two senior people from DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America, there, and he and he's basically saying, announcing to the world this is our this is our investment fund. And you know, they got he what's interesting, he's been pretty transparent about the groups he's funding. He announces really early that he had given money to this organization called Samadun, which at the time it's it's kind of its mission is to help prisoners in Palestine and Lebanon and Israel, like Lebanese Palestinians, probably largely uh uh in prison in Israel, try to get them them released. And a year later, actually, Samadoun would be designated as a terrorist organization by the the US, but it wasn't at the time. And he and Calawalsh create and he helps fund this organization called Palestine Action USA, which is essentially kind of a US sister to Palestine Action UK, which also was designated by the British as a terrorist organization last year. So he's starting to fund organizations that are kind of starting to get ensnared in this kind of global crackdown after 10-7 against Hamas or other groups, or Palestinian, the PFLP, you said the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which is interesting because it's a Marxist Palestinian organization. So you could see why it would have more ideological affinity with Fergie. But he the story I worked on, and that you can see the Babacchi Collective, he starts to fund a lot of organizations that you know are working in the Gaza area. And, you know, in the in the investigation I did, some of these, some of the groups he's been funding allegedly also had relationships with affiliates or arms of the PFLP. Um, so is that what he's being indicted on? It's possible. We don't know for sure, as I would say, we haven't seen the indictment. His I've seen one story out of Spain that said he was being it was directly funding Hamas. I didn't really see that. He he did say he provided money to some of the flotillas. And I know um Marco Ruby and others have said, oh, we think the the flotillas are essentially being funded by Hamas. So the the Babachi was kind of working in this in this space. He he put his money where his mouth is. He like some of these groups, he was, you know, I think there was one group called Mecca, which is kind of funding charities and and children's in the Palestinian territories. In a few months ago, he said he'd given over 750,000 to this one organization, which is another group that is being investigated. What does it have ties to the PFLP? So he was, you know, it was like his own investment fund. He had his advisors, whether it was Cast Calawalsh or others, and they did kind of make good on what he was saying he was gonna do. And you know, clearly now that he's been arrested, those those investments are being scrutinized pretty closely.
SPEAKER_03I gotta ask this question, and I I don't want to be insensitive. Um, and and Dan, I want I want I'm wondering if you could talk to this because you met uh you met Fergie personally, but you know, I gotta ask about, and I thought about this, you know, Jay, I thought about this when we talked about when we, you and I have talked about Cala Walsh, um, when we talked about the woman who was arrested recently uh for sending $30,000 to Palestinian Islamic Shahad. You know, what is the mental state of these individuals? I ask because I'm trying to understand how folks in the United States who are for a large part white, educated, um uh in some cases like with Fergie, wealthy, uh, how they get radicalized, how they develop these views. And so curious, Dan, if you if you can opine on on mental health or mental state from from your observation and also his family, you know, is it is this a path that would that he was raised in, kind of like Halla Walsh's family seemed to support her, you know, their daughter a bit more on these in in this kind of far-left world. But is that the case as well for for again? I know there's a lot in there, but wondering if you could opine on all that.
SPEAKER_02One thing I tried to get at in my story is it's one of the great traditions in American wealth for the heirs to sort of go afield, and that could be you know to create like you know, experimental art projects. Um it could be to, you know, fund a communist movement. Um, I I think um again, I I spending time with him, you know, looking him in the eye, talking to him on the phone a lot, I got the sense that he really was trying to reckon with what it meant that he was in this totally unique set of circumstances. Um and then as far as you know how his politics got to the point they did, he has a very intense personality. Um and, you know, again, he's been very open about struggling with drugs, starting from the time I believe he was like 12, 13. Um, you know, people in life um, you know, are troubled. And he he was troubled from a very young age. And um, this this wasn't an outlet for him. I I don't say that to sort of um, you know, cast doubt on his his his truly believing it, but um he really like turned to this over and over again. One thing I think you can see in my story is, you know, he has periods of trying to be an artist, he has periods of marrying this person and marrying that person. You see him coming back again and again to what he says is sort of the foundational cause in his life, which is again this this anti-imperialist struggle, using, using the unimaginable circumstances he's been placed in and sort of turning them over and like, you know, this is why he splits from his family, right? Because he's you know saying, My family is the enemy of the people. They're funding Cop City in Atlanta, they're um supporting you know this or that Israeli cause. Um, you know, he's he's trying to kind of um deconstruct what he came from. He's sort of trying to run away from it, um, but inevitably ends up coming back to it because um, you know, you you are your father's son, that sort of thing. Um so I um it's a it's a tough question. You know, how how do you get um, you know, we again we haven't seen the indemnity. We don't know what he's actually accused of, we don't know actually what he's done or hasn't done. Um but he's he's but by any account, he's taking some pretty extreme measures. By his own account, he has a pretty extreme personality. Um so I think it's a combination of again, totally unique circumstances in terms of the amount of money, um, you know, family issues that you know any anyone could relate to at difficulties with parents and trying to kind of find your own path in life. And again, just this personality, which you know he is is fairly self-aware about in in my impression, which is um, you know, understanding that he has an appetite for attention, for spectacle, for trying to sort of turn himself into something um, you know, broader than um what he saw in front of him. And um, you know, some some of these impulses to me are admirable, you know, trying to trying to figure out what to do with the um the hand that you're dealt, and he was dealt a particularly wild hand.
SPEAKER_01I think I think I'd struggled with that with Kayla too, because I think like Fergie, she does have like she likes to be in the spotlight. She has she was very, you know, at a very young age, she clearly wanted to have a big life. But she also, when when I really looked at her trajectory, there was these posts online about being sort of sexually groomed by older people involved in some of the campaigns she worked on. And you know, there was real bitterness there. And like when she kind of writes that, you know, our political system is exploitive, it's it's corrupt. I think part of it is she felt exploited by it as well. So I think there is was her in her trajectory, there was an element of you know, bitterness tied to some personal personal issues that played into her radicalization.
SPEAKER_03It's just fascinating to me because I know, you know, this he's not uh Fergie Chambers is not coming from a family. It doesn't seem at least that has trended this way, right? His great-grandfather was an Ohio governor who ran for the White House in 1920. His relatives seem to have formally cut ties with him. So, you know, um, I know that that's not tip, that's not the formula for everybody. It just, it's just, I find it fascinating. All right, I wanna I want to put it into context um as we wrap up because his Fergie's arrest doesn't come in isolation. Uh the Trump administration has promised to lead a global crackdown against what the White House describes as far left extremism and terrorism. And so I'm curious how Fergie's comrades uh on the global left are responding to his arrest and whether we think, you know, from a legal standpoint, in terms of next steps, are we expecting a major fight over the US's US's efforts to extradite him?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I've been digging in this for the story. I mean, it's gonna be really interesting. Certainly a number of big kind of progressive groups, ones involved in in legal affairs, looking at cases globally have rushed to his defense and are saying, you know, he's a victim of his support for Palestine. Um I think he's got a lot of money. I think you get the sense he's gearing up to hire. I mean, I'm not based in Spain, but it sounds like he's hired some big lawyers in sp in Spain to back him up. And yeah, I think they're gonna make this to try to turn this into a real global debate. And I think one really interesting thing is Spain has not been a supporter of the Trump administration. The prime minister has been a real critic of you know the Trump administration's policies. They've they joined the case against Israel at the ICC. So it's not the type of government that you would think would be cooperating with um the Trump administration on an extradition request. And they could still, you know, I don't know the exact time, but I think they have like three or four weeks to sort of weigh the evidence against chambers and decide whether to extradite him. I know they've been mobilizing some protests in Madrid where he's being held apparently at like a maximum security prison. So I expect this to become a global issue, him to become a cause celeb on the left. I do, I will say though, it's also there are some I found out there, some who clearly on the far left who felt he was a bit of a dilettante coming out and saying, you know, you know, this guy, this guy was in Abiza when he got arrested, you know, like a jet set safe haven in the summer and he was on, you know, he was skiing in Norway in the winter. Uh, you know, well, are we really gonna put you know put all of our our our back, you know, our power behind this guy who who's not really committed to the cause like we are. But I I think it's gonna be fascinating because he's got the resources to fight it, because of his profile, that I think it's gonna be fascinating to watch and see if they really do have the goods on him, or this is like he was just cosplaying and he like, you know, he funded some charities that are oper, you know, that are actually doing good in in Gaza in a very difficult situation. So I'm I'm fascinated where this is headed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just I had this experience spending time with him, writing about him, and you know, this dates back to he has this kind of like crazy tabloid story where Marjorie Taylor Green worked at um his CrossFit gym in Georgia. He's just like one of those people who um like far as gum style kind of like pops up and um attracts a lot of resonance. And um I just I just wanted to say like this is the ultimate example of that. You know, if he is gonna become sort of a symbol of um, you know, either the Trump administration's crackdown on what they're calling again, um, you know, uh global left terrorism or whatever the exact words are, um, he could be the face of that, or he could be the face of what you're talking about, Jay, which is sort of like um, you know, leftists saying that he's not the he's not actually shouldn't be the face of it. Um is just a very, very charged person. And he's in my experience very aware of his ability to command attention in that way. And um he likes it.
SPEAKER_03Do you see that his arrest and you know, in general, we are seeing, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, empirically an arise in this type of behavior, these types of views, and um and and in general, this right, like this increase in anti-imperialism, using violence though to advance that cause or and or funding potentially or allegedly funding uh terrorist groups and so on. Do you think that this arrest exacerbates that threat uh because people will double down? He'll become a martyr in a way, for lack of a better word, a cause celebr, I guess. Um, or do you think they'll, you know, take notice and heed and and and say, oh, well, I didn't realize it was illegal to fund these groups. Maybe I should stop doing that. Um, you know, which which direction do you see this going, at least for the near future?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think it's gonna be fascinating because they're definitely, I mean, there's definitely a rise in this kind of extremism that you saw from the 1970s in the US, late 70s, early 80s, where it's like they're Marxists, they're anti-imperialists, they join with the Palestinian cause. You can definitely feel that kind of mentality, certainly in a lot of these campus protests, but there's also, and we've talked about it, there's also this kind of um horseshoe thing where you know Tucker Carlson sounds as anti-imperialist, anti-American these days as people on the far left. I can honestly see Fergie on Tucker Carlson easily in the next, you know, if he gets is able to speak as like, you know, you were you're you fought you fought the Zionists, you fought the imperialists, and now they're trying to set you up. So I do think it I do think it it could definitely kind of inflame this both on both sides, not just on the left. You could see people like Marjorie Taylor Green, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens kind of rallying to his his side as well, because they're they they they seem to be extreme critics of U.S. foreign policy. On the other hand, if he really does kind of get in, you know, indicted, extradited, and kind of locked up, I do think people will like with Kayla's situation, you could tell, wow, I I got lucky, I got out after two months. It could be sobering to some of these people that there are real costs to this type of activity, no matter where you are. You know, if you're a visa or in in tuna, you can get snatched.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad you mentioned the Tucker thing because um like one thing I've been thinking about, and um again, again, like I really want to defer to the the people with real counterterrorism expertise here, but um like just the language around it, um, the the way this crackdown has been talked about, you'd think we're again we're in the 70s, weather underground, whatever else. And it's just hard for me to sync that up with my experience of the world right now. And I've I've just wondered a lot about the rise of social media, podcasting, um, content creation. I just wonder if lots of people who might have been attracted to um, you know, weather underground type organizations of the past are now posting instead.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a fair point. I mean, it's it's it is true too. Like if you look at particularly like anti-Semitic attacks, if you really look at it, it's pretty even. Like there is a lot of right-wing anti-Semitic attacks, in addition to the the guy I was mentioning who killed two Israeli diplomats last year in Washington screaming Free Palestine. He definitely seemed to come from the left, but it's that type, this type of extremism does seem to horseshoe in the way I was describing. And that's what's particularly, particularly scary to me at this current moment.
SPEAKER_03Dan, Jay, thank you so much to both of you uh for this fascinating conversation. It's uh we're so lucky for the pieces you've wrote, the investigations you've done. Um Dan, thank you in particular for joining us uh to discuss Fergie Chambers' incredible odyssey and to share the insights that you had after you've you met him personally. Uh before we go, where can listeners find you or learn more about your work beyond the Vanity Fair website?
SPEAKER_02Dan M. Adler on social platforms, Instagram, Twitter, and um I hope to do a Fergie Chambers update soon.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good. Well, we'll look out for it. Uh for listeners, if you've made it this far, please consider leaving us a review. Preferably a good one. It makes a really huge difference in helping people find us. And it's genuinely working, by the way. So please keep doing what you're doing. And if you have an idea or question for us, or you just want to say hi, send us a note at thethreadpod at gwu dot email.edu. Talk to you next time.