The Threat Podcast
The Threat podcast will analyze and discuss the most pressing, yet not always so visible, threats to global security and the movements and ideologies that fuel extremism and terrorism. We’ll take listeners to the frontlines of these battles, both at home and abroad, and we’ll talk with the key players in law enforcement, intelligence, diplomacy, and academia who are working to counter these threats.
The Threat Podcast
The Fatwa That Never Ended: The Rushdie Affair and the Conspiracy Behind the Attack
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In July, a New York jury convicted 28-year-old Hadi Matar of terrorism for the 2022 stabbing of novelist Salman Rushdie at a literary festival — an attack prosecutors tied to material support for Hezbollah. The verdict got remarkably little coverage, yet it marks the latest chapter in a saga that began in 1989, when Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling for Rushdie's death over The Satanic Verses — a fatwa Iran has never lifted.
Jay Solomon is joined by Dr. Suha Hassan, a counterterrorism expert specializing in radicalization, jihadist movements, and the interplay between religious narrative and violence, who earned her PhD from George Mason University and teaches at the American Public University.
They discuss why Matar's attack fits a much larger pattern of Iranian operations on Western soil — from the plot against journalist Masih Alinejad to a wave of attacks across Europe; how Iran "weaponizes narrative" to radicalize and mobilize lone actors through what Dr. Hassan calls a "killing vessel" model; why lifting the fatwa was theologically impossible for the Islamic Republic; how AI and social media are now supercharging martyrdom messaging; and why, from Tehran's vantage point, the current conflict with the US may only just be beginning.
Find Dr. Suha Hassan's writing at Homeland Security Today, where she is a columnist.
Welcome to The Threat. I'm Jay Solomon. On July 28th, a New York jury convicted Hadi Mattar, a 28-year-old Lebanese American, of engaging in terrorism by attempting to assassinate the Booker Prize-winning novelist Salman Rushdie in the summer of 2022. Matar was specifically found guilty of seeking to provide material support to the Iran-backed terrorist organization Hezbollah by carrying out the attack at a literary festival in western New York. Muttar's conviction marks the latest chapter in a nearly 40-year saga known as the Rushdie Affair. It stems from Iran's late Supreme Leader Ayatollah Rula Khomeini issuing a religious edict or fatwa in 1989 that called for Rashti's death in response to the novel he published the year before, The Satanic Verses. Khameni ruled the book was blasphemous to Islam due to its depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. And since then, Rushdie, at times, has lived under round-the-clock protection in London while eventually trying to maintain a relatively normal life in the U.S. Publishers and translators of the satanic verses, meanwhile, have been attacked and in one case murdered by Islamic extremisms. The Rushdie affair, in many ways, redefined the relationships between Islam and the West, and it highlighted the radical Islamist ideology composed to open societies. It also shows the long arm of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its allies in seeking to enforce their beliefs and pursue their perceived enemies overseas. To discuss Hadi Mattar's conviction and the history of the Rushdie affair, I'm delighted to have on the threat this week Dr. Suha Hassan. Suha is a counterterrorism expert who specializes in radicalization, jihadist movements, and the interplay between religious narratives and violence. She earned her PhD from George Mason University and is an adjunct teaching fellow at the American Public University. Suha, welcome.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate it. So let's get started with the conviction of Hadi Mattar last month in New York. It got very little coverage, particularly considering Salman Rashty's celebrity. But Mattar was proven to be directly in touch with an individual in Iran who helped plan the attack. And as I documented in my own story last year, Mattar's family had strong ties to Hezbolla in South Lebanon. Just to start, are you surprised Iran and its allies tried to kill Rushdie inside the US?
SPEAKER_00Actually, I'm not surprised at all. And actually I feel a little bit uh sad because this disappro, like this uh this case is not covered well, because we are in the middle of a huge conflict now between Iran and the United States and require more attention about loan wall of attack because the Rushdie affair is not a single case, but it's but just a small piece of large large phenomena, large and complex phenomena, which is like a weaponization of narrative against United States and its allies uh around the world.
SPEAKER_01But do you think Iran has gotten more emboldened? Because I think the perception might have been that they would not want they or Hezbollah would not carry out such an attack inside the US. But I guess because of their I mean, and this happened before the current war, but you you're you're not surprised that they would actually carry out such an operation inside the US.
SPEAKER_00So actually, we need to look at the phenomena itself as like a narrative, like as I said, weaponization of narrative. So we need to look what Khomeini issued in 1983. So it is like uh this uh fatwa is still alive. So it is uh his fatwa can involve two uh two important elements. So if we need to look to the fatwa, which is if I'm not sure if you have it, I can read it for you. Yes, please. Uh I translate it to English, the original Arabic one. Uh I inform all zealous Muslims of the world, that author of the book entitled The Satanic Verse, which has been complied, printed, published opposition to Islam. Look at the word zealous. Zealous, this is like those those who follow Imam Mehdi steps. So if you interpret it to Arabic word, so it is mean that zealus is is a is it work in the past, it works in the present, it will work in the future. So also at the end of the his fatwa, there is a word which is called uh there's important word I also highlighted whoever killed, whoever is killed on this path is a martyr. So martyr in Islamic perspective, in Boshian Sunni ideology or like uh theology, it is very important like to sacrifice yourself for a great issue or for a holy mission. That's why it is still alive. So based on this, we need to understand narrative as a transformative, as a transformative unit and transformative as a living entity. So it is transformed from generation to generation. So matter is just one simple or just a single case of from large things that are happening in the present, the past, and the present.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Can you place the Rushdie attack of 22 into this kind of broader context of Iranian operations in the West? Because it does feel like they're becoming more emboldened. You had two Iranian agents were convicted last year of trying to assassinate the Iranian human rights campaigner Masi Alinajad, also in New York. And this May, the FBI captured in Iraq the head of an Iranian-backed militia called Khattab Hezbollah, which is charged with executing a number, like half a dozen or a dozen attacks in Europe over the past five months. It kind of feeds into your idea of these narratives, but why do they seem to be so much more active now? Because some of this stuff was happening before the current war.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there is a concept I developed called Body Trump, uh, sorry, buddy trap, and um uh temporal collapse. So what's happening is that like what uh Khomeini did is during all uh using his whole his fatwa, there's one theme. If you go trace them, you go and look at trace each k fatwa, there is a temporality manipulate manipulation. He manipulates the time. So always there's a like there's always focus on the appearance of 313 fellow of Imam Al-Mahdi. This is a trade, like a very old concept in the in the Shia concepts that anyone who will attack the enemy of Islam, either even like those who like like in the case of Rushdie, he will they will consider the fellow, one of the fellow of the or companion of uh Imam al-Mahdi. So you need like mentally they are prepared to be like sacrifice themselves to be one of the camp, the fellow of Imam al-Mahdi, the 313. So that is the main idea of why there's more attack. If you go now to the YouTube, uh social media, telegram, it is all using AI, there is many images about this this uh historical, uh historical and religious story. So yeah, and if you also go to Hezbollah, like Nash, Nasrallah, I'll always emphasize on this uh on this story. That if you sacrifice yourself and you did more attack, then you are getting the dignity, you get uh you are you are pure a pure fire, you are you are now you are a pure person, that you are like reborn again, that is the emphasis on now. So you will see more and more attack. And I don't think from from what I have following our reading, this will be a single case or this will be stop here.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So we have two dynamics in some ways technology, AI you're describing, and you also have the current war between the US and Iran, which broke, which started in late February. How do you think these two elements, including the war, are gonna influence extremist narratives and the potential for more of these kind of lone wolves and or broader attacks in America and other Western countries?
SPEAKER_00Here's the thing the meta the model I developed is called killing vessel model. It means uh killing vessel model? Killing vessel model. So, how how I define the killing vessel model? Let me read my definition to this model. In this mechanism, each narrative unit or each word acts as a carrier of complementary unit of violence akin to look and a key mechanism. This is into sustain violence as a living system and turn individual bodies to enter a vessel of atoletic violence. In other words, so here's my model, I will read more about it. So you have here the the saikh of the the aruh or die or the holy or the holy order that's coming from the Quran. Then you have the what uh what Humein starts this like started in in uh in uh in his revolution and he's starting in this whole whole whole fatal, he used linguistic masking. In other words, that he abused or manipulate uh uh ex uh manipulate the relationship between Arabic word, Arabic language and Quranic language, because they are they have the vice versa uh relationship. Then what they then he set up the Arabic word from its meaning and reloaded with uh with the religious or extremist narrative or anti-Semitic or anti-Western narrative, then you have this word. So when you read the Arabic word, it's not meaning anymore any like ordinary word, it's all loaded with hate. Then this war, this system that he built, he built a huge system. Uh it's called self-organizing narrative system. Then he this this system is became a killing vessel. So each person now holds the idea, I'm not saying like no generalization, but those who who accept the wallayat al-Faqih. So each each body is now trapped in the in the between trapped his body or her body is trapped. So psychologically or mentally, they are physically here, but actually they are living in the past with the trapped in the historical narrative, and they are imagining themselves as a warrior of Allah. So this leads us, what does that lead us? That this they will practice more symbolic act of killing. So for example, killing like the attempt of killing Grujdi is a symbolic act of purification. That person, that this person now he's not, he's okay, he's he's with you here, but physically but mentally he's in the past, he's acting as a companion of Prophet Muhammad and also preparing himself to be a fellow companion of Al-Mahdi. So this is like the mechanism now is occurring that you will see more and more of Lonal attack.
SPEAKER_01And the and the internet and AI is like uh steroid, it will it will increase this pattern.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, even like recently, if you I'm not sure if you watch the the funeral of Ali Khamini, it was one of the sim one of the largest symbolic uh symbolic uh things that occur in in Iraq, in Syria, in Iraq and Iran, and also in Moral, like also in uh uh in Lebanon, because what happened? That they bring, they brought, they brought his coffin or remains to a najf an Karbala, sending signals to Shia, Iraqish, ordinary people or local peoples, hey, you could be like uh, especially when they touch his coffin, they touch his coffin, they do all those practices around like thousands of that thousands of people follow him, telling the people you could be also a martyr and become a companion of Imam al-Mahdi like him, like him. So Iran, Iran recently sent these signals to locals. So their strategy actually move from like they know they are they have some weakness here and there, so now they are switching to other strategies, playing at the individual level. So each of those millions of people around the world, uh, including inside the United States, uh inside the United States, they could be prepared to be a companion of Imam al Mahdi.
SPEAKER_01Back to the fatwa, can you take us back to Kobeini's issuing of it in 1989 and why it sent such shock waves across the Middle East and the West? Because it really did kind of change in a lot of ways the relationship between Islam and the West's more open societies. Why was this fatwa such a kind of linchpoint or a triggering event in the history of the relations between Islam and the West?
SPEAKER_00So basically Khomeini used like uh used around uh 1400 year fatwa, which is called apostasy, or those like uh specify uh specifically for those who are Muslim, then they betray Islam. So Khomeini described Rajdi based on what I have read so far, he was like is like the enemy of Islam and his ally or the United States and his uh and the Western countries. Apostasy is supposed not to be used uh because it is came from originally from Sunni, uh from Sunni leader, which is all called Omar ibn al-Khattab, and sorry, Abu Bakr-Sadiq, which is considered uh considered uh a Sunni figure. And so, but when he uh when Humeini used it, was okay, why he use like apostasy, fatwa against places like a shift from Shia to Sunni, and then you can see that Humeini manipulate the narrative and use whatever whatever is available, even in Sunni, uh Sunni books or Sunni traditional narrative to fit his ideology and his uh his goal. At the same time, it is uh it is even we don't know if he himself read the book or no, I'm not sure about that.
SPEAKER_01Uh because actually because it's a hard book to read, I assure you.
SPEAKER_00Uh I like I looked at a few resources and I don't see anything confirmed that he read the book actually, because based on I read on his fatawa on what he published, it seems that he just uh maybe just on his famous uh the satanic verses and then you the uh the propaganda that he is attacked, that Rushdie is attacking Prophet Muhammad, not his like just expressing his opinion.
SPEAKER_01And what do you think? I mean, you've talked a bit about it, but what do you think the legacy of that fatwa has been? Because in some ways, it feels like Khomeini kind of succeeded in bullying Rushdie and the West in some ways. I mean, Rushdie's had his supporters, but he also over the years has received a lot of criticism that he was sort of he was even from you know Western leaders like President Carter or novelists like John Le Carey, they kind of argued Rushdie was just respectful and cautioned him against essentially provoking uh the Islamic world. So I mean, what do you think the legacy has been? Because it does seem like the Iranians like succeeded in kind of breeding fear into the West and sort of raising questions about free speech. I think that's one of the legacies, as I see it, of the fatwa.
SPEAKER_00So the legacy of fatwa, his fatwa, that you take uh to you take a be uh an example and a symbolic person and put it in the middle of the picture and he then you oppress all the people. As we see recently, how many people uh were like uh were called as uh like the protesters and others because just either because they just say their opinion against Khomeini and his uh his ideology or the his revolution, I think. Or so you need us to set example in everything. This is one of even the apostasy, it is an setting an example that if you go against Imam al-Khomeini or Ali Khamini or later the Imwullayat al-Fakri, you will be executed. So using him as an ex as an example or as a symbolic figure is very important for Islamic world because this is this is how you send signals that those uh those that are but those who betray Islam, then if you read the if he read it or not read it, the satanic, that's uh that's his novel, but the important is how you like uh how you separate fear, how you separate the idea of you can oppress people. And this is still ongoing, like now, around 50 years, still still his legacy is still alive. And again, it is about the killing vessel, how you use narrative as on a killing machine, because it's you you use the holy words that you brought it originally from Quranic text. So you use murder, you use zealus, you use use uh use uh other words, like it is a holy mission, and you'll also use the ruh uh the ruh of Islam or the spirit or the spirit of Islam. You bring all those words, then again use them or explore them and send them to the people, then you are building again, as I mentioned, if you especially now there's a huge system, narrative system. Uh uh Iran is focusing on building it to mobile to radicalize and mobilize people because now they are shifting the identity of people from uh I have my model actually, I'm not sure if you want to listen to this. Sure. But but regular people or Muslim people identity divide to three levels. First is I call the societal level. So people like me who come from like Islamic Muslim families, we will we usually like born or raised are like at uh societal level. So this is our level we can interact with all kinds of peoples. We don't have to like the only things that we at our border is the moral level. That we, okay, if I don't if there's this and these things that I don't accept, then you stop. But there's also what Khomeini and uh other like uh jihadist movement developed is called moral level. But the moral level and the second level of identity they developed is totally different from what we what moral level under accept and understood in the Western countries. The moral level is either you follow Islam or sympathizing with Muslims around all the world, or you are against us, then still, then here you get the sympathizer here and there. By the way, uh then you will move to the spiritual level or eschatological level, that this level, the spiritual level, is the most dangerous one. And this is why now Iran is manipulating. First, they brought they uh they send this this they send the the like around the world that Iran is the Iran is um is uh attacked because they are following uh the the real so the real spirit of the real spirit of Islam because they are real followers. You will find in every text in social media the word real Muslim, real Muslim, the spirit of Islam. So you are sending signals. To all those followers, even here in the United States, there are there is a war against Shia, Oli, not even all Muslim, Oli. Then they are triggering this spiritual level of the identity. Then you have, then you'll see there is a displacement of the societal identity, the moral identity, then you are triggering the spiritual identity, which is there's a huge uh transformation to a radicalized person, then this person will be on waiting, well, waiting. So he maybe at the right moment they will move.
SPEAKER_01Are there any other examples of religious leaders, Muslim leaders using fatwas against the West? Or is Khomeini the first one who really did it? I there must be some other analogies or examples in in history, but I the the the Rushdie affair was the most got the most attention.
SPEAKER_00I think uh I think uh from uh from my reading is there's uh I think uh the first one was actually uh from uh Pakistan. I think it's Maul Mauludi. I think it's uh Mauludi, I think his name. And uh it was like against a British uh British army there. I think this is the first thing I saw in the history. But also there is uh well, I write that. Also, there's uh against Maghul, uh the Maghul army, then also there was uh who one I have it in my I'm not having now in my in my memory, but uh there's many, many, but you need around like uh I think 500 or 600 years ago.
SPEAKER_01I I was surprised, I think a lot of people were surprised when the the attack on Rushdie happened in 2022, that this fatwa was still in place because I know there were over the years the British government, European governments had discussions with the Iranian regime saying, you know, you should lift this, it will be a way for Iran to have better relations with Europe, with the West, but they never lifted it. Why was this fatwa so important to the Islamic Republic to keep it in place, even though it probably had an adverse impact on Iran's economy, on Iran's relations with the West? Why did they keep it in place for so long when even for me, like I thought I kind of forgot about it until the attack happened in 2022?
SPEAKER_00So let me redo this text and maybe it will help you and help our audience to connect how this how Iran is used, why left it there. So our matter, this is belong to Imam Ali. Our matter is difficult and demanding. It can be only carried by a near angel, a sent a prophet, or a person whose heart God has tested with faith. So this is concept, is one of the daily reading things in all Shia, ordinary Shia. Our matter is difficult and demanding, and it can be carried by near angel, sent a prophet, a person who hard God has tested faith. So if you remove the fatwa, then it means that you that that this is that you are that how you will tell or convince the people that you are the uh that the person who God is testing your faith. So even matter case is all about purification, soul purification is about dignity, and you that the God tests you. He was, I think he was sent uh to 25 years, but for him, look at the 25 20 or 25 years, for them there is also uh the story of uh Imam Al-Qadim, is one of the 12 uh uh one of the holy Shia figure. Imam Al-Qadim was sent to 25 years into the present during the Abbasi arena. So now he believed or he perceived himself as this he is like uh imagine himself as a fellow or like he's doing the doing the same journey like Imam al-Qadim. So that is why I said temporality is one of the the dangerous weapons that Khomeini and Ali Kha mini and even the uh and even now uh the new uh the new uh uh mushta Baqimi, they're using the same thing. They are focusing on temporality manipulation, that you are here for a you are here as a Shia person, here for a holy mission. You are not here to live, you are not here to to practice your normal life. You are came, you come here for a holy mission, and you need to do and take action when you are ready, when the time comes. So here's the thing that you uh the why it is like uh the fetwa also uh sometimes go down, sometimes appear, because there is a concept called an atokia. Conceal your conceal your uh conceal your religion, conceal your target till you receive an order. But the order, but the order, they will not like use the the the traditional or old uh or uh or old uh style. They will just send you signals through narrative manipulation through uh through a message. For example, if you are not Muslim or you are not have a background in theology, you'll not understand why the 3-1 theory flag uh is uh circulating in the United States and on some people's social media.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. So in in the in the Hadi Matar's case, 25 years in prison or how many he gets, he hasn't been sentenced is nothing because he's thinking about eternity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01But did from the position of the Islamic Republic, would would lifting the fatwa, had they lifted the fatwa, do they think that would have kind of weakened them, weakened the government, the regime politically, because they would seem to have kind of bended to Westerners rather than pursuing Islamic justice? Was that part of it? That the Islamic Republic just couldn't, for theological reasons, they couldn't lift the fatwa.
SPEAKER_00Here's the thing. When I look at them, you know, look and keep digging, there's a three-way that uh Iran, or three or more ways that connect that communicate with people. They communicate with Western people different ways. The even you go now to the original fatwa, you'll see different translation, different inter different interpretations. Some words cut when you go to the Arabic translation totally different, when you go to Parisian translation totally different. So this, like if you just manipulate a few words, then you will not get it. So uh that's why I translated the original. I brought uh yesterday I brought the original fatwa from Khomeini, then I put compare it with the English, uh, the English uh the English one, then I noticed that the most important thing that you know that Khomeini said it and signaled to his followers at that time and currently is dismissing.
SPEAKER_01So what what do you think? I mean, Hadi Matar could end up spending the rest of his life in the US, in a US prison. It's unclear yet what the sentence will be, but do you think the Islamic Republic will try to sort of build him up as a as a great martyr? Even though he didn't he didn't succeed in killing Matt Rashdi, but he came awfully, awfully close and he did it sort of in the belly of the beast. He did it in the US. How how do you do you expect him to be sort of martyred in some way?
SPEAKER_00So he he will he will like portray as a hero, and a hero of Islam, and a hero of Shia of Shia, even uh so uh even like all the leaders of uh not just Hadi Matar. So that's why I keep look at the big picture. You have uh you have a very complex phenomena, which is how you how you shape the narrative, then you shape identity and you then mobilize people. That's what Iran is doing. So had him at just one one single piece, then you have Ali Khamini is another piece that he sacrificed himself for the great sake, then you have or even uh the rest of the leaders that are hoke, even the nuclear scientists don't consider also holy figures now. So when your holy figures or your those those important people sacrifice themselves, why you not you follow them and also do the same, follow their steps. Especially you are it is especially Iran doing one focusing on one thing. Uh and uh I need you to focus on Ali Khameni uh the last uh things that it he tweeted. He say it is he said, it is the time of appearance, it is the time of appearance Imam al-Mahdi, that God prepared the land. He used those words in Arabic, that the the it is the it is the time, it is uh it is the time, it is the uh uh it is the causes and that everything ready to pre to uh to appearance of Imam al-Mahdi. And now, because of the AI thing, this is intensifying in whole Parisian media and also in Arabic media and also here. So even you not read it as a read it read it as a Western uh like if you cannot understand it, but this is all as signals. Uh they have also like Nasheed, they use Nasheeds, they read the religious, uh special religious text, the special Quranic text, all these are signals.
SPEAKER_01So you're setting up a pretty dangerous situation in the sense that you've got this war in between the US and Iran. As you mentioned, Ali Khalini has been assassinated, whatever term you want to use. Um a lot of the leaders have been killed, and this is going to be used by the Islamic Republic to kind of build up this narrative of martyrdom and the need to sacrifice for Islam. Plus, you have these technologies, AI, um kind of inflaming it even further. Is that your read on it? We're we're kind of in a pretty dangerous situation where we can expect kind of more attacks in the West?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I saw, I saw, I'm not sure about the originality or the uh AI or fake, but I I will say 90% was real, a video uh like circulating now on social media. There was like a huge celebration, uh sorry, uh uh uh for Imam uh for the Arbainiah for Imam for Imam al-Hussein in Michigan holding Al-Hajdashabi flags inside the United States. So I said, wow, this is this is interesting to see Hajj Shabi, the militia that United States uh labeled as a terrorist group uh here in Michigan.
SPEAKER_01And fought these groups in in Iraq, particularly, right? I mean the the US military. I mean, what what do you think the US and Western governments or even you know Middle Eastern governments, how should they respond to both this this what you are describing as kind of a surge in this modern complex um along with this these technologies? As I was I mentioned earlier, there were these attacks in Europe, and a lot of the people who had executed the attacks didn't even really know who they were operating for. They were getting paid crypto and everything was being done through social media. So it sounds like we're in a pretty dangerous uh uh time. How do you think what should the response be?
SPEAKER_00So this is my my personal opinion, and actually, so I think that the mentality that the the dangerous, the mentality that here in the in in DC, that the mentality that the dangerous is decreased, that is not okay. Because actually we are looking for more things that that will emerge sooner or later, based on Iranian uh uh Iranian how they keep escalating the narrative. This is one thing. The second thing that also we need uh we need to work on on this temporality, uh temporality body trap and temporality mechanism, and we know we need to know how to deconstruct this whole system because we are facing a huge uh a huge uh narrative that could be basically de-radicalization in some sort. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. But we need like a step by step because now all of them, like those again, we we need to back to the funeral of Ali Khamini is one of the that uh a huge symbolic thing that needs to be deconstructed and the studied well, even Swan today, because you are mobilizing, you are uh you are signaling, you are sending signal to to two to three million Shia in Iraq and also in Pakistan, also in Lebanon, there's these all signals that they could be mobilized at any time. If you again, if you go to social media, and actually, because I read a lot on Seware, how people interaction at the societal level, I notice that people are ready to just if you give them just one order, they will do whatever they ordered to do.
SPEAKER_01So this war has been going on on the surface since late February, but you're describing a situation from the Iranian or the Shia mind, it's only just started. Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_00Not being too uh That's that's my my anticipation because it you again we are looking at weaponization of narrative that because in Iran no they cannot fight for a long fight with uh we have just now like military operation. If we keep using military operation, they will not succeed because they know there's uh there's their power imbalance, so they will but then you have the houth here, you can the dangerous always come from mobilizing locals. That is how ISIS started actually. Is it just operation and you just bomb them, then you're done, or you need to think about who's your enemies on the ground?
SPEAKER_01And people like Hadi Mattar is just one of peace. He's just one of this in this army.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Well, this has been a sobering discussion, Suha. And thank you so much for for joining me to discuss the Rushdie, the Rushdie affair, and how it continues to impact global politics. Before we go, where can listeners find you or learn more about your your work?
SPEAKER_00Uh actually, I am uh I publish on Homeland Security today as a columnist and uh there. So you may be you may want to go there and read my articles.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Well, for listeners, if you made it this far, please consider leaving us a review, preferably a good one. It makes a huge difference in helping people find us. And if you have an idea or a question for us, or you just want to say hi, send us a note at the threat pod at gw.email.edu. Again, Suha, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Jake, for having me again. I appreciate this.