006 - Steven Ward (Double Bodied Man)

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Today we are chatting with long time friend Steven Ward. We talk about his influence with progressive metal and his insight on being a guitarist making content full time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hey everyone, and welcome to Tone Chugs in Harmony, the weekly podcast where we discuss all things rhythm guitar. Through our guest, we try to learn unique experiences, insight, and their thoughts on what rhythm guitar means to them. I'm very excited. Today we are joined by Steven Ward of Double Bodied Man. Steven and I have known each other for years. Literally one of the first friends I made when coming out here to Sacramento and getting into the scene. So I'm excited he's here. I'm excited we've been reconnecting. But now I'll let him talk. How are you doing, Steven?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. It's crazy to think about how long like we've known each other since back like I mean, when when did we first start kind of playing around the same scene?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I don't even know. I don't even think I was 21 yet. Yes. So I think I remember that, yeah. Yeah. What was that church event club retro? Club retro, yes. That was like the spot for a while for all of us young'uns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Um yeah, with their with their no cursing policy. Yeah. It's amazing. I got I got a story about that later if you remind me about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, I've I've known Steven long enough to watch his hair go from his head now to his face. So it's it's gone down. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

I had had the the long luscious locks down to my waistline, and then uh a couple of years back I noticed a little bit of a little bit of thinning up front, and I was like, you know what? No, I'm not going through any of the awkward phases. I'm not fucking with that. Just get it all off.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Dude, but you got red hair, you didn't want to go like Devin Townsend, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Go the skulllet route, yeah. Just for a little bit. That was a consideration, but I think uh I think my wife would have uh would have would have objected to that. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, fair enough. Um cool man. So let's talk a little bit in the present. Double bodied man. This is your most recent project.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Yes, what's going on with all that? Um I I reconnected with my old guitarist Anders. He and I used to play like in mid-aughts, I think, mid to late aughts. Um and we had a band called Edoza, which later was known as Legion's Requiem. Uh he left for the military um 2008, 9, 10, something like that. I don't quite remember the timeline, but uh he left for the military and we haven't really talked much since then. Um just occasionally. But uh a couple of years back, he messaged me and was like, Hey, I got an I got a guitar again, I've been writing some music and like wanted to get your feedback on some stuff. And I was like, Cool, man, like let's let's like do something with this. This is really cool. Like Anaz has always been a really great uh idea generator. Like he just sends me riffs and riffs and riffs and riffs, and then I get to take those and kind of like mold them into something that I think is like really cool. Like I write the drums to them, I'll write some of the bass and I'll write like harmonies. Um, so we started, you know, we were connect reconnected a couple of years back. Um releasing a bunch of singles. We actually got an EP that we're working on, instrumental EP, um, that should be out in the next couple of weeks, actually.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Okay. So there is music out now people can hear? Correct. Yes. Awesome. All right, I'll make sure to direct people that way. Um before we dig into the music, because I'm just curious, uh, the name. Where the full bodied man. What uh double bodied double-bodied man. Oops, sorry, sorry. Did I say full-bodied the first time or did I get it right the first time? You got it right the first time. Okay. Double bodied man. Explain the explain the meaning behind the name, because I I'm genuinely curious.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Uh double-bodied man, I think it's sort of like a reference to like a medical condition where like conjoined twins sort of thing, and it's a reference to like the two of us collaborating and working together to kind of make something that's bigger than the two of us combined, you know. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

The two of us separately. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's why I love asking when you hear a sort of a non-conventional name because I wouldn't have I w I wouldn't have caught any of that, and that's really cool. What were some early days for you with picking up the guitar and really getting into this genre?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Um, I would say that like when I first started playing guitar, I kind of noodled around in like the rock, alt, rock kind of scene, more so. Like I knew Metallica, and like when I heard Metallica, I was like, I want to play that. That sounds really cool. But it was like from black album on, you know, that was sort of like my introduction to that that um to that to that style, I guess. You know, it's like I didn't really like venture backwards in time towards like you know, Master of Puppets until later on. Um and I started getting into like you know rock music, and I was playing like a lot of like 90s grunge rock. Uh Spoon Man was one of the first songs that I learned in drop D, uh, drop D tuning. Um but what got me into metal was my buddy Scott. Uh he introduced me to Strap Young Lad, Lamb of God, God forbid, kill, switch, engage. So sort of the um pedal toning, like harmonic minor, phrygian dominant, semi-European style metal was definitely like my gateway into that sort of stuff. Um a lot of Opeth. Fucking still absolute huge fan of Opeth. They they are amazing. I just saw them in concert a couple of months ago when they came through Sacramento. Um but yeah, so that was sort that was sort of like the introduction to like metal metal. Um was those those hands full of ants.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

You actually just reminded me, uh, I I've told you this recently, but for the listeners, uh Devin Townsend's one of my favorite artists. But funny enough, it was Steven who first showed me Devin Townsend. Um, this was back again, we were very young, so I wasn't quite as venturous with metal as I was. I was a power metal kid, and that's power and power metal and thrash, right? And he showed you know the my first experience to Devin was fucking the Ziltoid album. And I remember I remember you explained it to me in your car, and you're like, yeah, dude, like it's this like metal opera about uh uh alien who drinks coffee, which nowadays is I fucking eat that shit up, but I remember like trying to be like, yeah, cool, cool, but in my head, I'm like, I don't I don't fucking care what is this you're showing me. Um and then it wasn't until years later I heard Kingdom. I was like, what the fuck is this? And I started going down the rabbit hole of Devon Townsend, and I was like, oh, this is the dude my friend Steven showed me that I just completely dismissed. Um and I was like, how different my life could have been if I was a little more open back then, who knows? But um we all find Devin at the right time, I think, you know. Yes, um, yes, anyways, that just reminded me of it because you brought up strapping young lad, and even more reason he should have done the skull up, man. I'm just I'm just saying it's not too late. Yeah, it's not too late. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Devin had bald here's the thing Devin Townsend had bald hair, he grew that shit on purpose, so it was a flex.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um then he shaved the dreadlocks off and then put them on the puppet ziltoid for the actual live concerts. Oh, his his dreadlocks live on on the ziltoid puppet. That is incredible. Um that guy's just he he's just a mad scientist. Like, whatever, like he just does whatever the hell he wants, and and I and I love him for that like authenticity and just like his his uh artistry. He's also like I've I've had the chance to like briefly meet him at like you know signings or whatever, and he's always like such like a just a genuinely nice dude, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Uh sorry everybody, this is now an hour of us just talking about Devin Townsend, apparently. Which I I feel I could easily do. So that was your introduction, your buddy Scott. Um so coming from the the rock background, right? Um, how did you find sort of the the shift or what were maybe some key elements in your performance that you're like, oh okay, I gotta change this up a little bit to play these more O pethy Devin Townsend kind of riffs, you know, compared to compared to Inner Sandman, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like uh technique-wise, I'll I'll tell you right off the bat, like I was kind of self-taught with guitar to start, and my my right hand was not nearly where it should have been or where it would needed to be. So like I had to actually like work a lot on my on my downpicking, like my my stamina. I had to work a lot on my like alternate picking as well. Because when I first started playing guitar, I I didn't really develop my alternate picking. I tried to do like sweep sweet picking, you know, that in and it wasn't like a natural thought of like, oh, I want to learn sweet picking. It was just like, oh, this seems easy, and like do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do, you know, like and just like conservation of motion. But the problem is like I did not get like develop a strong rhythm feel until I actually started to try and like learn metal. Cause like I remember going and and uh like riffing with with Scott because you know he and I would jam together, and like I always felt like I was like kind of fallen behind a little bit. Um, because I came from a very strummy sort of background. Um and I was like, okay, like I gotta like get this down now. So even learning like Lamb of God's 11th hour, like that was like I was like, I want to learn that song, but then you get into it as like dee do do do do da da da da da da da da da da da da da da, you know, you know, and like and trying to get those just the consistency of the right hand, that was probably the biggest hurdle for me getting into metal because like the left hand, I have I've I've been graced with like long spindly fingers, so legato's never been an issue for me. Um, but the consistency of the right hand was definitely like it needed work, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

And I I I think that you know, and we've said this on a few other episodes already, but like that is an important value of the right hand because you know, again, we're talking rhythms here, leads are a completely different beast, but a lot of these rhythms, not much is going on with the left hand, right? Um, especially these more these chuggy or or even the you know like again, so many notes were just played there, but most of it is writing whatever the root of the progression is, and then your other fingers are just kind of hitting the the melody, if you will. And so you can have this really fast left hand, but if your right hand can't keep up, you know, um, yep, then there then there's your problem. Now I have the opposite effect where my right hand is much faster than my left hand. So uh when I try to go the other way into the leads and stuff, I'm just like, I don't I don't understand. Um, you know, give me some hammer-ons, cool, all day, but I still struggle, you know, when you do a run across the guitar, um, and you're you know, you're not doing any pull-offs or hammer-ons or anything to make the left hand a little easier is a struggle for me. So so that's where I gotta put more work in. Um but what would you say was your big sort of aha moment, I guess, when it really kind of all locked in for you. Uh, you mentioned Lamb of God. Was there a specific song? Um, and the where it just kind of came together where you're like, oh okay, I understand now.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, definitely Lamb of God was was huge for me. Because sort of that pedal toning sort of vibe, like that, I I loved that. I instantly gravitated towards that style. Um so that's definitely when it locked in for me. And I and I like I still I still go back to some of the Legion's Requiem songs and jam along to them, and they're very like pedal tony kind of style. Like, very you can definitely tell like that's like heavily the influence of those of those riffs. Um, yeah, that was definitely like the sort of like aha mom was like um especially like learning how to like gallop in between, like you know, the downstrokes, you know, like and getting that really like fast sort of style down, like uh like side note, like trying to learn how to play like Meshogas Bleed for uh for a neural DSP cover track. Like that was that was rough. Now it was so rough.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Um I'm gonna I had a question, but now I have two questions, so we're gonna we'll go through it. Do you do it the the the the way they call it the Swedish gallop way? So you do the gallop and then the up, so it's a total of down up, down up, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

So yeah, down up, down, up, down up, down, up, down up, down up, so it's a very like circular motion with the the right hand, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, yeah. Uh did you find that challenging? Like, like did it like actually and I mean kind of in the brain, because like for me, first getting into the Swedish Gallop, I just I want to do that down, I want to do that eighth and a down, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Um I think I think because you you have the background that required the downstroke, uh, you know, the dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun me having more of a background of like the the uh ult uh not the ultimate uh but like the sweet picking style. Like that for some reason just worked for me. It was it was still an effort to get the articulation to really like come through. So it took a lot of like practicing to a metronome and just like click, click, click, deli, di, di, and like working up the speed from there. So yeah, that was it was challenging. But yeah, definitely I do the I do the Swedish gallop more than the typical gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, for me it was such a like it wasn't even it wasn't even like it's like oh this is easy. Theoretically, this is easier, but my brain's like, no, you want to downpick that eighth note, dude. What are you doing? And so it's like it was the constant fight with my brain of like I'm making it harder for myself just because that's what I instinctively wanted to do. Um and then my second question for you, uh, you've mentioned it a few times, so maybe for those listening who don't know might be curious. Explain pedal toning.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Uh so pedal toning is having the like probably most common is having like the the lowest open string be sort of like dun dun dun dun that sort of like um consistent note in the background, filling in the melody lines that you're playing on your left hands. So you're having the the the open note, and then you could move, of course, up to different notes so that way the chord sort of shifts along with the riff. Um, but you usually have just that sort of like note in the background that is your reference point, I guess, or like the where the note centers around, where the melody centers around. Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I also love a good riff like that. Um, I feel like In Flames did it really well too, does it really well? Um a lot of those kind of bands. Um I think I write a lot of stuff like that as well, especially with the Helium Prime stuff, because I was like, even though it's power metal, there's a lot of mellow death inspiration in there. Um, and it's a cool place to start too. And just for those listening, if you want to like just kind of experiment with riffs, that's a really easy way to do it. Just kind of find that pedal note and then just start hitting, you know, find a minor key you like and just hit notes within the minor key. Um you see it a lot. People talk about the you know, the five seven eight of like uh you know 2000s metal core. Um that's a great great way to do it. Down tune to to drop D, hit that five, seven, eight, and just just start having fun. And just ride that open D. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah. I mean it's a it's it's a technique that has been around. I mean, it's a it's a classical technique, like they would do that in in orchestras. Like it's it's it's been around forever. It just works really, really well for metal because it keeps that just aggression going so you can have like double bass in the background. Like it just it just works.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah. Let's talk about the band, right? What I came to know as Legion's Requiem, but how did it go there? Um, how did your playing affect your songwriting? Which I think you kind of already answered, but if you want to dig a little more into it, like did you set out for this band? Oh, you know what? I'm gonna let you talk first.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started writing with my buddy Anders, and we definitely had that sort of like um Swedish death metal, yeah, metal core, Lamb of God, God forbid, soil work, um Children of Bodem, even. So like we had these influences, Mastodon, Gojira, like, you know, eventually kind of filtering those in as well. Um and then we got Scott in, I think it was around 2011, maybe. We got Scott in on bass. I mean, I I knew Scott uh since like 2005, which was when he started introducing me to these bands, and um, but he didn't get into Legion's Requiem until later. But a Doso was the first iteration. Legion's Requiem was what it we named it after um after we had a couple of like lineup changes and stuff and song changes.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I remember you guys as a doso, but yeah, Legions is easier for me to remember just because that was the longest form that I knew. Um I think I'm pretty sure when I met you, it wasn't Legions Yet.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Correct, yeah, yeah. It wasn't Legions yet, and there's definitely like there was a shift in the songwriting style around the time when Anders left the band. Um we like I know I started getting into like between the buried and me and a little bit more of like the progressive metal elements, so just kind of like weird, wacky stuff, trying to add in as much like technical technical like flair as possible. Um he wasn't quite as much of a fan of it, so like I like and I know he left for the military, not because he wanted to leave the band because of writing difficulties or anything like that, but like you know, so we I started going more that direction with the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

That'd be a thing, dude. Like, I can't I can't deal with this. I'm joining the military. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Um so we I so so Scott was also like on the same page as me, loved the progressive kind of stuff, like like between the buried and me, whatever. Um, so he and I became like writing partners, like you know, good writing partners for a long time. Um and then the band uh you know died around 2014, give or take, you know, as bands often do. Yep, it happens. But you know, eventually, uh, you know, uh it was an interesting period of time because around 2014 we uh had some troubles within the band. Couldn't find a drummer to save our lives, and just that sort of just effort kind of like drained us, you know. We we tried to get some shows going and we tried to get some like replacement drummers uh in the mix, but like nothing solid. So we just ended up kind of like leaving it, just leaving it alone. Scott and I continued to write music, uh, actually with the aspirations of potentially becoming like video game composers. Oh um, that was the thing. I still have like a 15 song uh progressive metal eat like album that he and I wrote together on my hard drive, which I might might follow up with at some point. Um but uh yeah, I've I've since kind of like shied away from the progressive metal stuff. Uh no, well, yeah, maybe. I listened to a lot of Artspire. Okay, okay technical, technical death metal, but like you know. Um as far as the writing is concerned, my my writing style has become more simple uh later.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Writing simpler songs these days, is it more you think just a natural progression as you as a songwriter and discovering that hey, maybe not every section need the riff needs to be 110%, or is it just simply um you just don't want to write all that technical kind of progressive stuff anymore?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

It's a little bit of both, but there's a third element actually. So um, so Scott and I were writing, uh, so we were we were actually trying to record this instrumental album I mentioned, and I ended up developing some really bad tendonitis because of it. Oh man. Um, it was like we were trying to get stuff ready for the NAM show, which is a trade show, music trade show that happens in Anaheim uh every January. And we were trying to get this this uh album ready to showcase to like, you know, whoever we could find, you know, artists or manufacturers or whatever we could find. And um, it was like a straight month of me, like I it had taken a year to write this thing, and I hadn't really like practiced it as I went because we were just writing and writing and writing. Uh so I was like learning it and trying to record it at the same time. And so I would like I'd get up, uh, I'd go to work around like 10 o'clock, I'd get off around seven, I'd go home, I'd eat something, and then I'd I would like learn and record the song until about like three, four, five o'clock in the morning, sleep for a couple of hours, get up and do the same thing, like every day. Like and just that whole process like wrecked my wrist. Like it was like back here behind my my my thumb and my my forearm. Just I couldn't hold a guitar neck. And I actually had to like it was so bad that I ended up actually having to put guitar away. Like I couldn't pick up a guitar for the better part of a year while I was just trying to recover from the tendonitis. And you know, which was uh I would say that it's probably the failure that set me on my current trajectory in my career right now, working in audio and video and like being kind of like in part of the industry in the marketing side. Um, but we can get to that later. So I got this, you know, with bad tendinitis, and I had to put down guitar, and eventually, like I got to a point where I was like, okay, maybe I can start kind of playing a little bit again. And so I I would play like really simple riffs. Like I I was really not trying to like overstretch my hand or like um try and stress my my wrist out as much as possible. So I I started picking up guitar very, very sparingly, kind of play a little bit. If I felt a little tension in my in my forearm, I'd put it back down again, do some stretches, and like leave it alone. Um so I kind of developed this sort of minimalist guitar style where I was like, okay, I know all the things that I liked to write. Let's try and figure out the easiest way possible for me to get even 80% to where I was at the time. And it's kind of worked since then. And even then, like even now, occasionally I'll still feel a little tweak in my forearm. Um so I've I've simplified my playing and my writing because I've been maturing as a songwriter, because it's sort of the natural progression that you know I don't like writing as overly complicated stuff as I used to, and then also out of necessity because I'm deathly afraid of getting to a point where I couldn't play guitar again. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Steven went too metal, guys. See it's too much.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

It was just too much, dude. Yep. I uh I remember talking to you once when you still lived in the area, and you mentioned you were moving and you were gonna start doing more content and things like that. Um how did that sort of change your approach to the guitar, if at all? Like the mindset or playing?

SPEAKER_02 24:42

That's a good question because it it it kind of um I didn't know if I was gonna be a guitar player after the Tenonitis. You know, like I I my identity was so tied into being a guitar player, then not have having the ability for a year to do the thing that I loved so much. Um it it it forced me to fundamentally shift my idea of who I was and what I wanted to do. So um at that point I knew I couldn't do nothing though. So I got into audio work. You know, because if I'm not gonna be able to write music or play guitar, I still wanted to be involved in music and mixing was something that I kind of gravitated towards. Um and it wasn't until I started looking, like I I actually moved to LA because there were opportunities for me to work in audio in LA, working with some some engineers, doing some editing work, a little bit of recording work. Um, and it wasn't until actually I applied to work for Neural DSP, which if your listeners aren't familiar, they are a company out of Finland that makes uh guitar amp sims for your computer so you can play digitally or record or mix with their with their guitar sims. Um and it really wasn't until like I was like sincerely thinking about applying that I was like, okay, like I could pick up my guitar, I can kind of try and like I'll just chug out some riffs and like you know, kind of I actually made like a uh for the application I made a song for them to show my chops on how I could like play guitar and I could play cello and I can mix and I can like write drums and all that kind of stuff. Uh I even did vocals for that that song too. So, you know, doing content for them got me back into playing guitar because I was having to write music again, I was having to learn music again, I was having to uh showcase their products to people who wanted to play guitar but maybe didn't know or have access to the tools to make really great tones. So that kind of brought me back into the fold and reintroduced me more so to playing guitar um than anything else. And it was, yeah, so I would I would do I would do confortent for them for the first like six or eight months I did like two pieces of content a week, which was ridiculous. Um and then we went back to like one piece of content a week. So I would, you know, write, record, mix, and master a song in like two days. Um you know, sometimes like the deadline was just so tight that it's like, okay, this is this is what I got. Um which if you're I mean, if if anybody out there is having a hard time with writing music, I will say that having constraints and deadlines are things that will absolutely help your creativity and your ability to just make decisions in the moment, trust your gut, put what out, put, put, put, put put what's in there just out and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Um yeah, not to not to uh steamroll over your thought, but to to piggyback off what Steven said, I can agree with that because for a little bit of time I was doing this thing mana riffs, where on my socials I was writing riffs to magic cards, and I haven't really written a song myself in quite a while. Um and I was I was feeling that rut, like man, you know, but by doing these uh within a day, uh I wrote a I read a whole song accidentally just by trying to do one of these riffs, and I've got like three on the back burner of ones I'm finishing up to become full songs, and I was doing all of these like the night before putting them out, and it you know, not because I had to, but just because of procrastination. It's like, oh fuck, I gotta put one out tomorrow. And I was like, what does this card make me think of? Uh it makes me think of the faceless. Let me listen to some faceless songs real quick. Okay, write something like the faceless, and then it's like, oh, that's actually sick. So yeah, I I'm basically agreeing that, like, man, sometimes you give yourself a deadline and you'll put out it can help. It can reignite that fucking spark.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Absolutely, yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, there was uh there were songs that I wrote while working with neural DSP that I felt it was just like, all right, I'm just shitting this out tonight so I can get it done by the morning and have the video turned around by the afternoon. Like it was just like I just wrote a thing, I recorded it, I put drums to it, I recorded bass, and like I felt like it was almost like no effort. I mean, obviously there's effort, but you know, there's we can get to that. But like I felt like it was like, okay, well, this is not as good as some of the things that I can make given like extra preparation time or extra time for recording or writing. Um, but those were some of my most beloved demos, like or or or tracks that I wrote, some of the things like, and even then, like I go back and with a different perspective, I'm like, oh, I I get why people liked it. Um but yeah, sometimes you will you will absolutely surprise yourself with what you can come up with if you just trust your gut and just put things out without overthinking it or procrastinating by perfectionism, you know. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Because I I think if you do that, you're gonna fall on an issue that I've been into and it never sounds how you want it to sound, so you're gonna wait till it does, and then I'm still waiting, you know. Um now there are there are ones I've done, and like some of the ones that I said I'm sitting on that I plan to turn to full songs that I'm like, okay, I am gonna change this, but it's not like drastically, it's just clean it up a little, you know. Um, but I think that's a little different than sitting on something until it's perfect, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Um and cool man, and so real quick before we get too far away, back to um the tinnitus, did I say it right?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Tin tonitis.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Tintinitis, yeah. Uh I can't say words everybody, so I'm sorry that I'm the host of a podcast. Uh but it's endearing.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah, and I know by what you showed it it was in your left hand, correct? Um but still, were there any steps you took to kind of having to like any was it more just waiting to recover or any sort of steps you took to kind of get the chops back up and maybe new perspectives on plane from that?

SPEAKER_02 31:04

To deal with the pain initially, it was a lot of like stretching and like isomess isometric stretches and then eventually like some exercises to to strengthen the forearm, you know. So like um you know, the the the the typical stretch of wrist this way, stretch your wrist that way, and that dealt with the pain initially, and then to get back into the guitar playing, that was just pulling up songs that I used to write or used to play, or like learning some new stuff. Um at that point I had like seven and eight string guitars available to me, so I was like learning some extra stuff from there. Um getting back into it, it was just time and dedication. Kind of finding that finding that that that focus that I used to have for it. Like when I was when I was a kid, I remember being able to just sit down and play a song and learn a song for hours at a time, just because it was the thing that was like, oh, this is cool, this is interesting. And I don't know about you, but it's hard to get into that zone sometimes nowadays as I'm as I'm older and like I kind of have like my my my my box that I play in most days, the scales and the things that I go to like on a regular basis. Um there aren't many songs that I feel inspired to go out and just learn just for the sake of learning anymore. Um but yeah, trying to trying to find that getting back into guitar was was really important for me. So like also not being hyper aware of like the amount of time that I was spending on guitar too, like it's like five minutes at first. Like, okay, let's just play guitar for like five minutes and then put it down. Being disciplined in a way that I hadn't been before because when I was recording the the album, like I had no discipline at all. Like I was just like, oh no, I just need to get it done. So I'm just gonna you know push my way through it as much as possible. And that has hurt me in in in more than than that, you know, like it with like exercise even. Like I have an intensity to push myself too far when it comes to like working out, you know, deadlifts or like squat, like any of that kind of stuff. Like, I just go, oh, well, you know what? I feel like a little tweak in my back, it's gonna be fine. I can do like six more reps, and then like suddenly I'm just like lying on the ground and I'm like, it hurts to breathe, you know, because my back just spasmed and like just locked up, and I'm like, uh fuck. So when I when getting back into guitar, it was definitely a lot of like disciplined practice of like okay, I could do five minutes today, and that's it. Like, I know you're gonna want to play more because it's fun and it's what you like to do, but like just doing what I could and the at the time and just being focused on the things that were gonna get me back to where I needed to be or where I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Right. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, and then um to to the same for me is like you you get set in your ways almost and what you know and what you're comfortable with. So two things that have helped me with that is streaming um and song requests, because I tell people like, you know, like even if I don't know it, like let's fucking learn it, I'll do it. Like, you know, as long again, I tell people like don't throw any arch spires at me. Like, I'm sorry, but I can't site read can't sight read an arch spire song. Um, but as long as it's not something insane, I can probably do it. So that's been cool because people request stuff that I would probably never try to learn on my own. Um, but again, to go back to it, the mana riffs thing was really helpful for me because I would look at a card and be like, what does this card make me think of? So again, using the faceless as a reference, I don't play stuff like the faceless, so it's a whole writing style I'm unfamiliar with, so I'd go listen to them, maybe look up some tabs so I can break down what they're doing, and be like, oh, oh, I see, oh, clever. And it's been a fun way because I don't know if you've had this struggle, but it's almost like the more knowledge you get with theory, it sometimes hurts you by putting you in these boxes that you forget you're allowed to step out of. I know I've had that struggle, like it wasn't until like the second Helium Prime album my friend's like, Man, you always write the same chords, and I was and I thought about it, and I was like, Oh yeah, because I'm not leaving the minor scale, like I'm just staying in it, and so but using that as your stepping off point, and again doing some of these things, and I'd be like, Okay, well, this technically isn't in the key, but I like how it sounds, so I'm doing it. And you know, the the the mannerist stuff really helped with that, and I even wrote like a doom doom metal kind of riff, which again I don't really listen to Doom Metal, but I was like, oh, because there was a song, you know, we did uh or a riff that I did for this card called um Crater Hoof Behemoth, and it's this big the the particular one I did was this big woolly mammoth, and for some reason I just thought of a doomy stomping big mammoth, and so I was I was listening to some Doom Metal and came up and I was like, oh, it's kind of cool. So or I did one that made me think of like Fear Factory, earlies early 2000s industrial metal. Uh so that that helped me, I think, is what I was getting at of to sort of get outside of my own box because I think I if if any of these I was trying to write from my own band, I'd be like, oh, they don't they don't fit the the the style, so yeah, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even attempt it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Sure, sure. Yeah I think having eclectic like eclectic listening habit habits really do help with creativity because you draw on so many different inspirations and different styles that it pushes you outside of where you're comfortable. Because yeah, I mean like you know, I I got I got super comfortable listening to like Lamb of God and playing Firgian Dominic and like like that's my it's my go-to like and and then it's like okay, like you listen to something like you know, Archpire or Between the Barry and Me or Opeth, and it's like, oh, that's different, you know, using like some half diminished, diminished, whole tone scales, use some like augmented chords, like and it really does it really does something for you because at the end of the day, that like staying within your your your box is not pushing you to grow any. And to me, like I I really value growth and learning and education and like trying to stretch myself creatively as much as possible and and like having such an eclectic listening, you know, style, it's just it will always you know leave so many more options available to you than if you just listen to like your three three regular bands, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

You know, which I'm some I'm sometimes still guilty of. Um totally I I still listen to Blind Guardian on on a regular from high school, but um sugar. Yep, yeah. To to bring this around to fit it into rhythm and things like that, everybody, is also I think getting stuck in your box, you're not making yourself a better player. Because as Stephen just said, you're you're you're you're good at what you're good at, but then that's it. You know, I remember, man, when I've you know, going back again to the old days, like I grew up in a smaller town out in Valley Springs, California. There weren't really metal guitarists in my high school, so like I was kind of I was kind of it. Like I was I was playing, I was like, yeah, dude. So I came to Sacramento like fucking, yeah. And then like Metal of You Guys. I remember there was one particular kid who was like 16. I don't know if you remember the band, uh Malevolent or something, but I remember Ringsabell. Yeah, he was a fucking little shredder, and I I just got humbled real quick. I was like, oh man, all right, uh so maybe I'm not that good. Uh but you know, but I moments like that, I I I always say I don't admit it, man. Like moments like that are great. Um getting to work with people, uh maybe better than you is not the right word, but maybe that can inspire you, um, or you see something you hadn't seen before. Um I I like not being the most complex one in the room because then I want to try not try to be, but thrive to be better because of that environment. So getting out of your box, learning all this stuff, because I know a lot on this podcast we mentioned downpicking because it's a staple of tight rhythm playing, but you can still downpick and sound like shit. So and you could and the thing is, is if you only downpick, that doesn't equal great rhythm player, you know. Right. You mention opeth, right? I don't think of opeth and think of downpicks, not that they don't do it, but it's not the core of their sound. But Michael is a phenomenal guitarist, phenomenal rhythm player, so there's more to it than that. So trying all these different things is a good way to really um challenge yourself with that, and remember that it's more than down picks and gallops, and I I know I bring them up a lot, but that's because again, that's what's in my comfort box. I grew up on the thrash, the iced earth, the the stuff that really drills that in your brain. So that's my strong point. Um, but it's like I can play stuff like Opeth, but not comf not. I don't I don't even know if not comfortably is the right way to say it, but I'm not I'm it's not like walking in like, hey man, play me this metallic or riff. Hell yeah. You know, it's it's a different different thing, but it's still it's still great. Um I think what I'm trying to get out with all with everybody, if you're if you're like where the fuck's he going with this, is like try different genres, different styles, because there's something to be had for all of it to make you a better rhythm player and just a better guitar player.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Yeah, absolutely. I I think I think something to drill down on is that like your downpicking is is a tool, right? It's it's the technique, it's a tool that you use in your your arsenal, uh, gallops. Um I mean, like I was talking with somebody about like uh blast beats, right? I love blast beats when it is appropriate, when it is like it's just something about it is just so aggressive and just thundering everything forward. But it's like if you have a whole song of blast beats, it's like you know, but like gathering like all of these different eclectic tools to your toolkit makes you a better overall songwriter, musician, like because yeah, it's like hey, I I'll I'll even say it like it's not just the gallops and the downpicking that made James Hetfield a great rhythm guitarist. Yeah, it's also like the melodies and the hooks and the the the the chords and the singing, like it was everything that he had to to offer to like the whole of the song that was being created by him and the rest of the band, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, and on the topic of James Hetfield, right, we all that's that's that's who people think of, right, as when we when we the down pick, right? But dude, his his solo in nothing else matters, he does the middle solo in Master of Puppets, the clean sections, the acoustics, like this man is more than just a down picker, you know, and I agree with you, like that's what made James great, and he was a master of the downpicking as well. Um you know what's funny though, this is a little tangent, however, um I love when people try to well, James does it this way, so therefore it it is law, and like sometimes when you if you do a Metallica video or something, and but what's what I always love is there's a video from '84, I think, of James Hetfield playing creeping death alternate picking. So I'm sorry everybody, but even James Hetfield has done it. The da da da da da da da da da da, you know, even he's done it. Now, then of course, two years later, Master of Puppets Tour, there's the 86 video where he's playing at like twice the speed down picked. But that doesn't the point is, is like, listen, there's many ways to do the same thing, you know. Yeah. And it and it's like when when so I even James sometimes Alternates, you know. I don't know if he's done it since, but there is video evidence of him doing it, so it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That being said, I am a big believer in like if you can downpick the riff and it's a driving riff, you should. Um, but I'm not gonna say it's law, I'm just saying if you ask me to record your riff and I can downpick it, I'm probably going to. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

But then you know it gives a consistency to certain things that is just not possible with alternate picking.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, like the riff of creeping death should definitely be downpicked. But even James, at one point, even if it was that one show, he did do it alternate picked. So it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, 100%. Anyways, yeah, step outside your box, everybody. It's okay. So the content side is a complete different beast, right, than the bands and things like that. So it is. Uh, but it is it is a big thing. I mean, it's all of us have had to quickly learn how to edit videos and be in front of a camera when many of us just wanted to write songs and perform. Um, but as it is becoming the normal, if there's any younger listeners out there, like what what are what's some tips for getting started for that if they want to do guitar content?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Don't overthink it. Start start with something easy, start with something like because I know that I have a tendency to overthink and over-prepare content in my head, because it's like, oh, well, if I do this, then I'm gonna have to explain this, and if I explain this, then I'm gonna have to talk about the history of that. If I talk about the history of that, then I gotta and it's like suddenly like this like video that could have been just eight minutes long suddenly is like 36 minutes long in my head. So I have a tendency to really overthink things. So I would say keep it simple, like keep it real simple. Like my nephew is a drummer here in Sacramento, and he's just been uploading like raw shots of like GoPro footage, like either like from his like the little chest mount or from the side during his shows, and it's been getting killer engagement and uh uh uh visibility for his band. And it's it's low tech, it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to sound the best. Um so like yeah, just pull out your camera, put it in front of you, play your riff, or play to play to the backing track, you know, and just go, just start. And because I think that for people who are just getting into the content game, um, they sort of overestimate the amount of attention that they will they will gain at first. Uh insofar as like uh the early first months, years that you are doing content is where you should be experimenting with your stuff as much as possible and putting out as much stuff as possible. Because one, you are learning every single effort, every single piece that you're putting out, you're learning a new lesson on how to do things properly or how not to do things. And then beyond that, like you don't have the audience that is going to be hypercritical of you. So like you can kind of get your faux pas out and like get your like kind of garbage out early on, and then really start to to um sculpt and mold your stuff into something better along the way. So yeah, just put stuff out, put as much stuff as you can out, and really don't take it as seriously as as you think you need to.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

All not not all, but most of my videos that have done the best, and and I'm talking more short form content on like Instagram and stuff, are the ones that I just shit out because I was like, I need something today, you know? And I I I did a video uh Gallops through the decades because I've seen like people do like you know music through the decades or dancing through the decades, and I was like, ah, gallop riffs through the decades, like fuck it. So I just thought of quick four riffs on the spot, and I did it, and it fucking blew up. Of course, most people were mad that I didn't include Iron Maiden in the 80s. I'm sorry. Uh but but then people would have been mad if I didn't do Slayer, so it's like, you know, but everybody's a critic. But see, there you go. Like there that'll help, man, do something, you know, rage bait. I'm kidding. But nope.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Not wrong, but it's not don't do things too intentionally uh don't intentionally rage bait.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um because it was yeah, but my point is is like every time I've not every time, but sometimes because like I try to do every I try to post every day. If I got nothing, I'll just post from a stream. Those usually you know do whatever. But sometimes I'll just have a quick idea and it does super well. So and I didn't overthink it, as Steven said. And then man, and then some of them I do where I'm like, this one's this one's good, this one's good, and nothing. And I'm just like fucking because then you overthink it, you get excited, and then if it does bad, you feel bad. Um, and that's okay. It's it's still a form of your art, you're still expressing yourself, you're still putting time into it. So I'm not saying like don't not feel bad. Um, but yeah, just put stuff out, you know? And yeah, Steven said it better than me, but I'm I'm essentially I'm reinforcing what he said. All right, Steven, thank you so much for being here, man. It's always a great time to see you. I've been loving getting to reconnect with you outside of this, and I'm stoked you did this with me. Uh, before you go, we're gonna ask you some rapid fire questions. So these are just for fun, um, and just answer as quickly as you can, whatever. Um and so okay, so one that I always like to ask because I just love to hear the answer is what is something of yours uh musically that you are most proud of? It could be a riff, an album, a song, um anything.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Uh something that I'm most proud of, a riff or a song a moment, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

You know, just whatever.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah. Okay, so um getting to open up for animals as leaders with Legion's Requiem and getting to see a whole bunch of like uh Pragy nerds actually get into some like heavy ass music was so much fun. Like, uh, because they came they came through Sacramento and my band was on the bill. We got to open just before Naveen Coppel Rice, Naveen K played, uh so we were like direct support for the uh the the tour, and like it was it was packed. The venue was packed, and it was a whole bunch of like you know, and I say nerds lovingly because I am also a nerd, and I was there to also see animals as leaders, but like getting to see them actually physically move around, you know, instead of the whole arms crossed the chest, judging stare nods and shakes ahead, like actually getting to see people get into the music that I wrote and that I produced and that I worked my ass off for, you know, that I'm headbanging for, and getting to connect with people on that level, probably one of my absolute most like favorite moments in time.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

That's awesome. It really is a great feeling, and so I'm definitely glad that you had that. Yeah. Um, who is a guitarist, alive or deceased, that you would love to work with?

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Uh Devin Townsend. Just easy, yeah. You know, it's it's that's just that's just that's it.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Okay, but promise me if you do, you grow you grow a skulllet. Please, please.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

No promises, but I'll uh I'll I'll see what I can do. See if the misses missus will permit it.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

It'll be like those like if I win the lottery, I won't tell anyone, but there'll be signs.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

I'm just gonna see you one day and be like, wait, are you working with Devin Townsend skulllet dreads on you know down to my shoulders? Like, no, dude, I'm not doing anything. It's fine. You're just flopping around. Yeah. Jacked up on coffee.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Yep, absolutely. Cool. Yep. Um, okay, so you're going to a show, you're performing, it's a tour, live, whatever. What are three things you must have in your gig bag? Three things I must have in my gig bag.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Um tuneer, string winder, cable. This is pretty much what I would have in my. I mean, aside from from that, if if we're talking like tour writers, uh definitely hot tamales, my favorite one of my favorite candies. Um some of these like barebell, peanut caramel, uh, protein bars. I've been getting into these a lot lately. These are really good. Um yeah, that would that yeah, that'd be my that'd be my thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Um what is a guitarist or album? And honestly, you can tell me as many as you want, that truly continues to inspire you.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

I feel like Devin Townsend is one of them to inspire me. Sure, Devin Townsend. Like listening to Strapping Your Lads Alien is always a good throwback for me. Um definitely Gojira uh is still inspiring to this day, probably. Maybe Magma? Maybe from Mars to series though. Yeah, still still inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Love Gojira.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Awesome. Very cool. And finally, what is uh some advice, some words of wisdom you'd give to uh people trying to become um stronger rhythm players or just more well-rounded guitarists in this genre, any genre, um, but just something you know you'd want them to hear uh as they start their journey.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

I think um you know, we've already talked about the idea of being eclectic and learn learning and listening to a lot of different styles, but I think that also like um there is an element of physicality that is missing from I think a lot of people's lives. And I'm talking about just going to shows, being around people, being a better guitarist, I think you know, because obviously what the first answer that kind of popped into my head was just uh you practice, like but uh practice is only like one element. But I think that's something that truly makes you a better musician, better guitarist is working with other musicians.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

I fully agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

I I think in in in a in a in a vacuum, you can make some decent music, you can probably make even some great music, but I think that if you really want to just enhance your writing and your ideas, having somebody to bounce those ideas off of will always make you better. So I think that beyond just like the basic answer of like practicing, I think getting out and actually being a part of a metal scene and like working with other musicians, even if it's just random collaborations you do on the internet, like like, hey, guitarist that I like and that I follow, let's write something together. I have these riffs. What do you think? Um, I think that that to me is something that is has kind of been missing over the past, you know, six, seven, eight years since COVID, like because everybody's at home doing their Instagram guitarist thing and they just write a rip couple of riffs and they put some drums to it and they just put it out because algorithms, you know, whatever. Um and there's nothing wrong with that. No, but I agree. I I agree. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you really, really want to get become a great guitar player, I think that pushing yourself to be in maybe even if you can work it, being in the same physical location as another guitarist and working together on something.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Please do some shout-outs for yourself where they can find you, what you got going on, and what you maybe want people to know.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Well, I think most relevant to this podcast is my my band, Double Bodied Man. Uh, we have an EP we are working on. It's instrumental five six tracks, six tracks that's coming out in the next two weeks. So we are gonna be making our uh every six-month post about that on our Instagram. We don't need to post more, it's just embarrassing. But anyhow, um, so we got our double body guy's content man EP coming out. Yeah, the content guy just sucks at getting content out because it's really uh when it's not like I'm getting paid to do other people's content, so like it makes my content that I'm not getting paid for like a little bit less of a priority. So I'm like anyway. Um so so there's that. Um, if you want to check out any of my socials, uh the real Steve Z or the real Steven Ward uh YouTube channel, uh make content for some other people. I just made a a 35-minute video. Let's talk about our content earlier. Uh made like a 35-minute long video on how to EQ your guitar and shape shape your tone with impulse responses on the Fortin YouTube channel. Um, yeah, that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

I think. Awesome. Well, please everyone go follow and go listen to Doubled Body Man, not me looking to make sure I said it right. Uh and um for those listening, please share the podcast, rate the podcast, tell your friends. And if you want to join a community of like-minded players and just a cool place to hang out, share your riffs, and get some insight, join our Discord, which is the Rhythm Dominion. And um, it's still it's still in the beta section right now. So if you do join right now, just know it's growing. Um, however, we hope to see you there. Please share, and we'll see you next week in the next one.