Tone, Chugs & Harmony
A podcast dedicated to the art of rhythm guitar in heavy music. Each episode features a new guest—from touring musicians to content creators—diving into their journey, their riffs, and the fundamentals that make great rhythm players stand out.
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Tone, Chugs & Harmony
009 - Songwriting ft. Alicia Cordisco (Judicator)
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Today Alicia Cordisco (Judicator) and I talk about songwriting and the role the guitar plays with it!
Hello and welcome to Tone Chugs in Harmony, your weekly podcast about all things rhythm guitar. Through our guests, we will gain insight and knowledge on what rhythm guitar means to them. Today we are joined by Alicia Cordisco. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Jason, thanks so much for having me on. I am doing great today. A little hot here in Arizona, not gonna lie, but other than that, doing well.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Yeah, I can only imagine it's been toasty in Sacramento, so I'm sure it's worse where you are. Um actually, to outside today, it looks like there's a nice breeze, so I'm stoked. Um before we jump into today's topic, we're gonna do some vitals and some insights about our guests. So we're gonna let you kind of ramble for a little bit about yourself and things you're involved in and all that. So I think it's the best is to start right there. Just who are you and what are your projects?
SPEAKER_02All right, sounds good. Okay, so um I am currently in uh a number of projects, but I'm gonna highlight two. So I do a lot of um just like random recording projects and things, and and some are more intense than others, some are more known than others, but I'm primarily known for playing in a power metal band called Judicator. From um I co-founded the band with John Yellen in 2011-2012-ish and played until technically 2019, but announced in 2020 that I left the band. Recently I have rejoined the band. So as of uh time of recording, June 2026, I am back in the band as a songwriter and guitar player. Um, in addition to that, my biggest project outside of that is a uh band called Transgressive. It is a thrash-death protest band, um, primarily focused on basically like political and historical issues of liberation of marginalized peoples. Um, the name sort of implies that it focuses on transgender rights, but um honestly that's like one sliver of the pie. Um primarily did fundraising for the band through the first couple of years. We raised about $10,000 for abortion funds and for trans lifeline. Um, however, recently we have switched to a more traditional format as we're doing more and more things uh that require money to be in a band.
SPEAKER_00We all know that.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So if you want to do things, you gotta spend money. It sucks ass. Um yeah, so we were working on a new album as well. Um, so that's definitely my highest profile project outside of outside of Judicator. Other than that, I am working on um, I release solo albums decently frequently of various genres. I've done a symphonic power metal album recently, and before that a black metal album. Um, and I'm working on a melodic death metal band right now with my good friend Alex Edwards uh from Soul Mass, and uh that is called Raithorm, and hopefully that will be my next release.
SPEAKER_00That's very exciting. Uh you're so busy and always got something going on, and always pumping out the riffs, and that's why today's topic is perfect for you, and um, we'll get into that a little bit later. Um I I'm I like Minnie am very excited to see you back in Judicator. I mean, I I was picking up the hints that are being dropped. I I I just thought I mean I thought it was gonna be like a special appearance at Grillfest. So I, you know, I didn't see the the reunion happening, but that's even more exciting. So I'll be out at Grill Fest. Um quick shout out to Grillfest, everybody. It's a metal festival thing going on that John Yellen has started in Utah. If you want to see the return of Alicia, um that's the place to do it. I'll be out there. It's in what, September 12th, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, September 12th in Midvale, Utah. All day event, great bands, grilling, lots of grilling, medieval combat, luchadors. It's gonna be awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we'll see the the mighty return. I am stoked. Um, all the other great things you've done with Transgressive 2 is is awesome. Just check out all the music. There is so much and so many different, so much variety. So there's gotta be something there you like. Um and so let's kind of get into that a little bit. Do you so here's a question I'm curious about because I've answered this before, and uh, it's always interesting when I hear this, and I I have a guess of what your answer will be, but I want to hear it from you directly. Do you consider yourself a songwriter first or a guitarist first?
SPEAKER_02A songwriter first.
SPEAKER_00That would have been my guess. Yep. Um, you know, you're you're the guitar, right? We we see it as as the tool, you know, but I think songwriting's the passion. Would you would you agree?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love guitar, don't get me wrong, but I'm definitely less like guitar nerdy than other guitar players. I don't know shit about gear. I don't know shit about being a Luther. Like I can play and I can talk to you about theory and technique all day, but when it comes to like being special interest in the guitar, I'm such a casual.
SPEAKER_00I think, yeah, we're the same when it comes to that. Uh I've been recently I've been posting more reels on social media and stuff, and a lot of the times I get asked questions of like, oh man, what's your tone? I'm like, dude, whatever the quad cortex gave me. Like, I'm sorry. You know.
SPEAKER_02I'm not what did what did the producer dial in for me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I I've been asked, like, oh, what's your tone on that album? I was like, oh, whatever the reamp is, you know. So um, you know, I have learned that I do like ingle amps, and I say that because a lot of the times when someone's re-amped for me, more often than not, I'm like, ooh, I like that one, and then I'll ask them what they used. More often than not, an Ingle amp is mentioned. So if I had to guess, I like ingles. Um, but that's about as far as as that goes, right? So um, yeah. So what are some of the biggest lessons you feel you've learned for songwriting, especially someone who's dabbled with so many genres?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So especially with the with the genre thing. Um, for me, I think the most important thing as a guitar player who is in a songwriting role primarily, um honing your style, like your individual style, regardless of genre, I think is really important. Like you can play melodic death metal or you can play blues rock if your style is dialed in and intentional and you're focusing on cultivating that style, the listener theoretically, the attentive listener, which we know they aren't all, but the attentive listener um should be able to tell reasonably like this is the same person. Um, there should be identifying marks in your playing that you can jump into any genre and it's like, oh, okay, this is Alicia on guitar. Um, I think that has really allowed me to be successful as a songwriter. Uh, and certainly people have said that, but I think I finally found my confidence in it in recent years.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Um, to sort of continue a little bit of the same question, more on the songwriting standpoint, uh, have you found it difficult or what um tools would you say you have used to be able to jump jump genres, right? Because there is a knowledge in needing it, there is a knowledge within each to know um, you know, certain chord progressions, maybe, or chord types, or riff types, whatever. Uh, how have you found um you know you've been able to do that or key points that made it easy for you? That was a very terrible I hope you understood the question.
SPEAKER_02I think I'm picking up what you throwing down, yeah. Um so so for me when it comes to genre, um one, you know, I'm I've always looked at genre like guidelines, so it's like, all right, we might be playing Melodeath or whatever, but that doesn't mean if you write something from another subgenre, you shouldn't include it. Like you write where the song takes you, and those little idiosyncrasies that come from your other influences are what makes that music sound fresh rather than just checking a list of boxes um to play to whatever the genre is. So when it comes to genre, I think technique is what I look at to identify the genre. Like, okay, if we're in, you know, if we're playing old school death metal, like we're gonna have slow, chuggy, groovy uh riffs, and then we're gonna have high tempo tremolo riffs, and we're gonna use, you know, primarily dissonant scales or chromatic scales, um, use minor third, minor third, minor fifth harmonies, things like that that are common hallmarks of the genre. Things fall outside of that. That's okay. That's where your style starts to come in and cultivate that sound. But starting with those building blocks, that's what I look at as far as genre. Now, when it comes to personal style, that's where things get a little more uh get a little more theoretical or abstract. So, like for me, when I think about my style and how I like to construct a riff, for instance, I see my style as a blending of um very percussive and rhythmic, like lower end uh right hand technique, blended with things that are more uh lead and melody-oriented that almost carry the top line of the song in the left-hand technique. So, like interweaving cool picking patterns with neat little lead licks that have like their own voice and charm to them. I call them little tongue twisters, is what I like to call them. Um and kind of combining those two in interesting ways to make riffs that one stand out and two um can not just like have a cool riff under the song, but also like start to form the melodic basis of the rest of the song. They start to inform you know the vocal melody, the bass lines, the other lead guitar lines, etc.
SPEAKER_00So if if if no one could guess, today's topic we're doing is songwriting. Um, but we're gonna be so here's here's the thing to remember as we listen through the episode. We're gonna be focused on the guitar, primarily rhythm guitar's role in the songwriting. So I might ask questions that seem odd, or you might be like, well, I don't write like that, or I wouldn't write a song like that. Again, we're we're focusing on the guitar's role of the songwriting. So um, because there's many great songwriters, including metal g metal songwriters, who don't even use the guitar to write the song. So not everything starts with the guitar. So I just want to say that because some of the questions I might ask might seem a little like, well, that wouldn't make sense anyways, but again, we're we're focusing on the guitar, right, everybody? Okay. So with that, we're gonna jump into the next part of rhythm guitar as a foundation with songwriting. Um, so when writing a lot of the the stuff that we play, uh, how much of the song's identity would you say comes from the rhythm guitar?
SPEAKER_02I would say like bare minimum, it starts at 50%. Um it's it's the largest chunk in foundation in how I approach songwriting. And I think metal writers in general, um and many other genres. There's lots of guitar-oriented genres. But yeah, for me, it like 50% is the starting point. Um, you know, and where it goes from there is really gonna depend on how vocal-centric the song is, how um alternative instrument focused the sound is, like if it's more keyboard heavy, or if there's more like weird percussion things going on or more synthesizer stuff, um, or if you have symphonic elements, or um how lead guitar-oriented it is, if you have more solos, more leads, um, that will kind of determine the split from there, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00What to you makes a rhythm part memorable?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, so it again, it it like you're saying, it depends on the context of where it is in the song. Like with a main riff, I kind of already already spoke to my my approach with riffs that kind of stand out and carry the melody or the character of the song, but that doesn't mean that other sections can't stand out too. When I think of like a riff for something that is more vocal-centric, like in power metal, I think of choruses because it is so so easy in power metal to just go, okay, it's the chorus. If I find an interesting chord progression, all I have to do is play it, and I can just let everyone else kind of take over from there. Um and sure, you're defining the chord progression, which is going to inform everything else, but on those parts specifically, um, and it's funny, I just did this with um adjudicator EP that I that I just finished recording. Um, you know, we have the main chord progressions for the chorus, and thinking about, okay, but how do I make this stand out? Because everyone else already has the basis of what they need. The the chord progression is going to inform the melodic structure, but how do I make this more interesting from a guitar playing standpoint without walking over everything else? So filling in those little cracks with just little variations and little intricacies, I think is a way to make a non-guitar-centric part stand out or at least be memorable, even if it's not the standout part, if that makes sense. Like when you're on the turnaround of the chord progression, if you're doing, let's say you're doing four bars, right? And you're doing four different chords on each of them. Okay, instead of just playing those four chords, what can I do rhythm-wise to tie those chords together? Do I put like a little picking pattern in at the each of them and change it a little bit each time? Do I take maybe two notes in the scale between one chord and the next and a tremolo pick down from one chord to the next one? Do I put in a little lead phrase if there's enough space in the arrangement? You know, if the vocals aren't walking over it or something to tie the chords together. So I think about them as like destinations. Each chord is a destination, and what can I do on the road to the next one to make it a little more of a memorable walk, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, it's a great way to look at it. I like that a lot. Um, and you know, with that, you know, I do the kind of the same. Uh it's been really nice when you when you've worked with singers for a long time and you can trust them because you can, like you said, when you have the the chord progression, um sometimes it makes it a little easier, at least for me, because like I can I'm like, alright, I can trust them to fill in the blanks, if you will. Yeah. Um you know, I've talked about this before, but when I listen to a lot of my really, really, really old songs, like the first few dire peril EPs, um, and before I had that concept of like, oh yeah, other people can do things too, and the guitars are doing so much, but not like in a good way, you know. Uh it leaves room for like nobody, and it almost like takes this weight off the shoulders when you like, okay, like you can sit back a little bit sometimes and trust the others to to fill in the blinks, you know. Uh which we will get to in a little bit, talking about how how we can do things like that. Um but have you ever like in your younger younger years of songwriting, would you find yourself falling into that trap too of just writing like riff soup in such the worst way? Um because you know, as as as a guitarist, for me it was like, oh well, I gotta keep it interesting all the time. Um, did you have those problems in the early years where it's like may like basically when do you know the riff is serving the song?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a balance um I definitely had to find, and working with singers over time in like repeated situations definitely helped me as well. Um, I'll tell you what's made a huge difference for me in recent years is working with an all-star bassist. So um Leona Hayward plays bass in um transgressive and rainstorm, and we also played together in Project Rone Wolf, which was like technical thrash metal. Um, and she's god damn, like one of the greatest musicians I've ever seen in my life. If uh if you guys aren't familiar with her, she primarily plays in the band Owlbear, and um, she's also in a band called Rope in Seattle, and was in a band called Weapon Lord and 50 other bands as well.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, uh, but she's just like virtuoso level talent. Um so kind of the cool thing that I've learned with her is one, like she helps me like find space for her to flourish and make the the music more interesting while I take a step back. But the more interesting thing to me is I've also found in working with her I can push myself to a higher technical level that we can go to together. Um, so it's kind of like it goes in both directions. Like instead of just writing the middle and writing, you know, the rift soup as we call it, right? Um, you know, she's working with her and her talent has helped me be able to like, okay, when can I pull back? And then that's when she takes the center stage. And then there's times like, all right, now when do the two of us go the fuck off and speed down the highway together? Um, and that's been uh a really cool thing to experiment with and think about when I'm writing things in uh in transgressive in particular, but also when we were in Project Roan Wolf.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, and I like I like how you mentioned the take off together, right? One th one kind of advice I got uh that has always stuck with me, and I've always liked uh it wasn't really directed at me, but it still sort of stuck with me. Um a guy working on us for the second prime album. Uh, you know, this was back, you know, uh our drummer Boston. We love Boston, uh, but he comes from a Prague metal background, so he's throwing in all these crazy Prague drum stuff on these power metal songs. Um and to be fair, like I kind of told him to, because back then I was listening to a lot of death, and you know, death drums are pretty intense. So I was like, yeah, dude, go ham. Like I was still kinda you know, I still even hadn't figured out, like, okay, sometimes less is more, but I remember the guy saying, like, you know, um, you know, if you're going 110% all the time, then like it's not impressive. Like he he was talking about, he's like a lot of these guys, they'll sit back at 80%. So when they do go that 110%, everyone's like, oh fuck, you know. Um, and that that really kind of stuck with me. It was that good, like, yeah, like, okay, not every part needs to be as insane as it could possibly be. Um, absolutely. And that really stuck with me, and as I think has helped as I continue to write songs and get better and stuff. Um, so it's it's just a good reminder. You don't always have to be at 110%, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the the dynamics of it, I think that's the big learning from you know working with singers and bassists on your songwriting is learning how to be better at dynamics.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Um, and actually, perfect segue. It's like we planned this, but um I do want to get into talking about um how we elevate the rhythm guitar through our arrangements and the dynamics and adding things, right? Uh leads, acoustics, everything like that. Like, when do we know when to kind of bring them in? Like, when do we start to add the layers, right? Um, like how do you know when there's too much going on?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah. So it's interesting for me, like because um I think that being really solid on rhythm is a great way to learn how to be a better lead player, a better acoustic player, a better composer. Because you can take those lessons from rhythm guitar and apply them to it. I mean, the simplest way I I tell people and tell myself even to think about arrangements for lead guitar and arrangements for um acoustics and even like or orchestral stuff um when I'm writing keyboards, uh, is to just think of it like you would think of writing a riff and how you would write um two guitars dueling with each other. Um, you know, when you're when you're sitting down and trying to write like an interesting finger picking arrangement. Or or a layered acoustic section, you know. Um, I generally try to start with a chord progression, try to find really good voicings of those chords. Um, you know, start with the basic chord, find a good voicing for it. And then from there, it's kind of like I was saying with those writing those chorus arrangements. All right, what can I lace in between this as I'm picking it, or lay over top of it with another with another guitar that's just like a little catchy riff with within it. And then all of a sudden I've got a melody idea, and now I can start tying those chords together, making sure the notes are right, making sure everything sounds good. And um I've just found by doing that over and over and over that it's been able to like elevate the complexity or the simplicity of like my acoustic playing. Um and same with lead playing, you know, whether it's writing harmonies or writing uh, you know, polyphony or uh counterpoint lead playing, or whether you got three or four leads going at the same time, whatever it is, simple or complex. I basically like I start with a riff, but then I remember that riffs are not um not the be all end all. Right. You know, if I start with uh with a little lead part that's like a little riff, then I can expand that into something else. So now I guess yeah, just oh go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. No, I'm good.
SPEAKER_00Do you ever write a melody first and then build off that with rhythms or chord progressions or anything?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I would say with uh with leads and especially theme leads. Like when I think of a theme lead, I think of like the top line of a song, you know, like the first main lead that you hear that kind of repeats throughout the song, the the motif or whatever you want to call it.
SPEAKER_00That's always I love to use that word because I have a questioning for you. But you might answer it right now, but go ahead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I tend to start with that and then find the chord progression underneath it when I'm writing leads. When I write acoustics or um symphonic stuff, keyboards, I tend to start with the chord progression. Um, I'm not sure if there's a reason I do it that way, uh, but I just tend to find that like when I'm writing acoustics and keyboards, I I want to have like a really pretty progression under it and then color it in, if that makes sense. And when I want a lead, I want people to be focused on um the lead, and I want it to kind of be like something you could hum by itself, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that's a great way to look at it. Um now when I write a lot of my stuff, I'm usually chord progression first, riffs riffs first, but I've been doing it so long that way that it's just sort of ingrained in how I write. But it is fun to get a right, get to write to a melody. Um because it for me, I don't know if you can relate, you might do something you wouldn't normally do, um, as far as the chord progressions and stuff goes. So the best example I have for myself is when Heather and I did that cover of Blood Upon the Snow from God of War. I mean, that's a very slow song that we turned metal, so all the melodies were already there. The chord progression was there, and getting to turn it into riffs and arrange things around it, it was really fun. And there's things that I did in it that I probably wouldn't have thought to do if I was writing the riffs first. Um this is a little uh admission of myself, and like something I'm not strong at is doing leads first, but it is something I want to get better at because I think there is a lot to be desired to do it. Um a lot of cool things you can do instead of just doing the chord progression first. Because you kind of box yourself in, I would say, when you do the chord progression first, because you've you've told yourself, all right, this is this is what I'm working with. This is this is my canvas, I have to paint over it, right? Um where if you do the the melody first, now you have more room with the chords to play around. So um so that's it's really cool, a lot of fun. So a question I said I had for you is how important do you think reoccurring lead motifs are?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, that's a great question. So in conceptual albums, which uh we've done a lot of in Judicator, um, I've always been a big fan of those. We have uh goodness. I'd say three of our albums have really uh iconic even motifs in them. So, like on our second album, we have the title track instrumental, Sleepy Plus Ow, and it starts and it has this kind of marching motif in it that reoccurs in the song Blut vom Himmel, which is like the epic centerpiece of the album. Um, and then on our fourth album, The Last Emperor, the first song starts off with uh this part that has this motif that goes, Blessed are you, and has um this like vocal passage, and it's under a heavy version of the motif. And then this reoccurs at the end of the album in a um acoustic format, um, just the same thing rearranged for acoustic, and then the lyrics slightly changed to reflect the journey of the album. Um, so as like a thematic tie, I really find motifs to be an excellent way to show the progression of storytelling. And you can do that within an individual song, too. You know, the the easy one, the the kind of, and I admit I'm being lazy when I do this. The easy one is to do it at the start and the end of the song.
SPEAKER_00I do that a lot too.
SPEAKER_02You know, like yeah, I mean, you know what? It's classic, it works. Like you start on it, you end on it. It's like this is the start of the song, this is the end of the song. It's a bookend. A bookend is a bookend works great. It's really effective. That's an easy way to to get a theme across. Um, but you know, taking variations like that that I mentioned on an album level and putting that into a song, I think can be a really powerful way to show um a dynamic journey through the song, especially depending on like if you know the song subject ahead of time, which I almost never do, but you know, sometimes you get lucky. Um or uh if it's a longer song and you want something more dynamic, you know, taking those those leads and rearranging them into something different, whether it's for a different instrument, a different tempo, um that kind of thing, or different like um melody arrangement. So, like, you know, at the start of the song, maybe you play it in one octave with an octave harmony on it. In the middle of the song, maybe you play it an octave higher with a minor third harmony, and you change the rhythm behind it to make it a little more dynamic. So there's this sense of progression and escalation as you go on. I think that can really help people feel the momentum of a song. Like I'm going on a journey through the song, and it really rewards re-listening to the song to feel that. Um and then variation, of course. You know, there's always the right little variations on it. And if you're Andre Ulbrick, you know, you can do that all day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That guy. Um cool, absolutely. Yeah, I I have the habit of like the start to finish, because it's it's almost it's almost like I feel uneasy if I don't sometimes, like, oh, I didn't resolve the song.
SPEAKER_02Um it's just good closure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, this we're gonna bring it all together, we're gonna bring it all home, and so that's that's sort of how it feels. Um and then we talked a little bit about acoustics, but do you so when you're writing a song, do you set out like, all right, I know this song is gonna have acoustics, or does sometimes like we've mentioned you know, you said it already, but sometimes the song just takes a life of its own. Um but are you often seeking moments of like where can I fit a softer part? Or does sometimes it just feels right, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it kind of depends on where I start with the writing. If I start with an acoustic piece, the first question I immediately have to ask myself is what part of a song is this if I'm writing an acoustic piece? Like, is this an intro to a song, or is this some sort of extended bridge, or is this an outro? Because that will really inform what the rest of the song looks like. And I can't tell you how I pick what that is, um, but it is something I think about like okay, I've got to find a direction for this. Like, is this good enough to start the song? Is this good enough to intersect a song? Um excuse me. Now, when it comes to just like writing a song normally, like I'm starting, you know, let's say we start with like a heavy song, and it's your typical, like, all right, we've got a verse and a chorus, and kind of kind of going along, and it's good so far, but where does it go from here? I think the hardest question I have to ask myself is when do I do the Master of Puppets? Yeah, which is I which is where I just stop it and then we go into something random and rebuild the song from there. Like it stops and goes into something completely different that's soft. Like, when is it okay to do that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's something I wish I did more of myself, but it's almost like I don't know if you agree with this, but there's a vulnerability to that because if it doesn't work, then it just doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02Um you know the reviews are gonna be like, oh, this song overstays its welcome and feels disjointed.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep. Um now I don't I can't remember if I've said this on the podcast, but I'm gonna put my stance on it now. I've talked about this many times, but I know the song might be I don't even want to use the word overplayed, but it's easily a very it's we could say it's a very popular song. But in my opinion, it is one of the best structured metal songs of all time. I will die on that hill. Every section like it is like you said, when do I do the Master of Puppets? And I feel the reason that's an example given is because it is the best example of how each transition is just so good.
SPEAKER_02Because Yeah, I mean it turns into a completely different song and completely rebuilds itself back into the original song.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the the the way they you know, talking about going back to reoccurring, not really lead motifs, but just parts, right? The way they go back into that iconic intro riff is unreal. It's so smooth. It's just like whoa.
SPEAKER_02Oh god, when it it's it's perfect. Yeah, it's perfect.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I will for like I Master of Puppets is one of those songs that I don't care if it's overplayed, if you will, or whatever. It's to me, it's one of the when when we're talking about things like in today's episode, that is the best example of doing all of the things we're talking about perfectly.
SPEAKER_01It really is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I heard that song 23, 24 years ago, and I've been chasing that high ever since.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep. Um you know, not to keep going on it, but man, even when they build back out of it and it's like the they go to the F sharp and it's that crunchy dun dun dun dun dun. It's like, how does it sound heavier? And you went higher, you went to a higher key. Like, I don't know, just kudos to those boys. Uh it's songs like that that they've forever earn respect, no matter how many Lulu albums they make, whatever. Um, so let's bring it back. Let's bring it back. Sorry guys, I derailed. Uh, you give me talking about puppets. Um and so, yeah, how do you write counter melodies in your songs and and make sure you're not cluttering? So we've talked a bit about this already, so we might have already answered most of it, but essentially just adding sections, adding parts within the guitar, but making sure it doesn't get over cluttered or there's just too much going on. And Blind Guardian's a good example of this for me, where I feel like there's so much happening, but it all works so well, and then when I try it, it just sounds like a clusterfuck, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that can be really tricky. So one thing that I really go through and comb through with a with you know a fine-tooth comb as close as I can when I write sections that are more than just a twin guitar lead. So especially like speaking of Wraith Storm, um, in Wraith Storm, it's melodic death metal, so I really don't have to worry about the vocals too much because the vocals are a percussive growled instrument. I don't have to worry about their melodical, they're melodical, Jesus, their melodic intersection of what I'm playing, uh typically. And so there's a lot more um, you know, like uh polyphonic stuff going on. And what I mean by that is like we'll have a rhythm guitar that's two parts, right? Like it's it's one riff and then it's a harmonized version of the riff, and then there'll be a top line lead over it, and that top line is harmonized in a standard way. So you've already got four guitar lines going on, playing two ideas, and then we'll add in a third, like lead guitar that is just one lead voice, um, kind of dancing around everything, and all of a sudden you've got five different guitar parts going on for three different ideas, and that can get very cluttered very quick, especially when you throw in bass drums and vocals on top of it. So when thinking about you know that as like a standard clusterfuck moment, and knowing that like it can get even more clustery from there, depending on what you're going for. One thing I I like I was saying, I go through with a fine-tooth comb is making sure that the part that I want to stand out is not clashing with anything. So typically in a part like that, I want the rhythm guitar to sit furthest furthest back. It is basically just the foundation of everything. So it's probably gonna be the simplest part, um, but it's going to, you know, it should still be good on its own, obviously. And then the harmony that goes over it, we definitely want to make sure that there is nothing clashing with it in a way that would cause problems. Like sometimes dissonance is good, especially in death metal. You know, sometimes we want to go for something that sounds nasty or something that sounds um very chaotic or very busy. Um, but when we're adding even more layers on top of it, I really go through section by section to make sure, like, okay, do all of these things make sense from like a chord theory standpoint? You know, is the scale correct? All that am I am I getting any weird sounds at any particular moment? Um, one thing I do with that is I'll take the section in Guitar Pro and I'll like slow it down to 50% speed so I can really listen and hear and make sure I'm paying attention. Um, and I actually have trouble with this because I have audio processing disorder, so sometimes my um ears fill in the blanks or don't hear things correctly, depending on how things are going at a particular point in my head. But um, it helps me to literally like slow it down, listen to it, hear everything in context with each other, and make sure there is nothing that jumps out at me as clashing or sounding too busy rhythmically, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. That's that's a good that's a good idea. I've never tried to do that, like slow it down a little bit and really listen. Um I just you know, hope for the best, right? Throw things at the wall. No. Um, one thing I want to do with you, if you're if you're down, I want to do a song breakdown. So I would like you to actually choose one of your songs, and what I want for the listeners is to actually I'm giving you homework, listeners, go listen to whatever song we do right now after this episode, um, so you can hear the final product. But what I'd like you to do with one of your songs, any song you want, um, if you have one that has all the stuff we've touched on, even better. But I want you to basically go through how did the song begin? What was the original riffer idea? How did the arrangements evolve? What layers were added later, what almost got cut, what did get cut, and then when did the song finally feel complete? I can re-ask you any of those questions if you need, but basically walk us through like step by step of from the moment you picked up the guitar, hit that first chord to the final product.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Um so you'll have to forgive me. I can't uh go through the theory of it because I didn't prepare for it. Um, I am definitely a pen and pencil need to reference things type person, but I do want to use the song Let There Be Light by Judicator from our fifth album, um Let There Be Nothing. Um it is a song I love and I really like playing it. And funny enough, it when you play any individual guitar part, it really doesn't feel like there's a whole lot going on. But when you take the whole thing in context, it is a monster of a song with that just sounds huge, huge, and uh, I think that's why it's one of our more popular songs and why it opens the album so well. Oh, with that, I started with a chord progression, um, just an acoustic chord progression. Again, I couldn't tell you what the chords were offhand. I haven't thought about this in like seven years, but that's okay. Um so I picked four um really cool voicing uh voicings of chords. Um and it's in the key of A flat. And I I knew I wanted a I knew I wanted it to start on a slow acoustic opening, and I knew I wanted it to be a slightly longer opening song because we had done like the short punchy songs to open an album, and we had done the like do an intro track and then a beefier song to open the album. I'm like, what if we put like a pseudo-epic to open the album? It's seven minutes long, so it's not quite epic length, but it's got all the pieces of it, you know? So I'm like, what can I do with this chord progression? And I want to develop this chord progression in interesting ways throughout the song. Um so it starts on two acoustic pieces, and those acoustic pieces are based around the uh the first chord, which is I think it's just like a regular A-flat minor chord method special. And um this chord progression actually repeats several times throughout the album in two different acoustic intros, um, as kind of like that album's motif, if it were, um, rather than using like a top line. Um so it opens on that and it kind of escalates from there. So once the distorted guitars kick in with John doing like one of his iconic iconic screams, um it goes into an electrified version of that, which is just you know typical power chords. Um and those are basically the basis of the main riff and the chorus. Uh I'm sorry, not the chorus, the main riff and the verses, and then the pre-chorus is um a slight variation on the opening acoustics picking pattern. So it's like in a distorted version callback to the intro.
SPEAKER_00I love I love when songs do things like that, not to cut you off. Yeah. But I love the callbacks from a slower part, but on a like a heavier arrangement. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, people in Doom Metal, they're like, bring the riff back but slower. I'm like, in power metal, we bring the riff back but faster.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yep. Yep.
SPEAKER_02So that that kind of gets us up to the chorus, and then the chorus is basically just a picked version of the the four chords that I started with, you know, just like bouncing off the decadent with um with the chords interspaced between. Um, and it gets a real nice epic chorus from John. And then, like I said, there's not a whole lot going on on the rhythm guitar, but the chord progressions and the variations on picking them are kind of carrying each section to the next. And I'm I've got these lead harmonies that are acting as the main riff instead of the rhythm guitar, if that makes sense. Um, I need to stop saying if that makes sense. I'm saying that so much. Okay. Um so that that kind of informs the first half of the song. And then again, the idea here was I wanted to take a chord progression and develop it throughout the song. And I knew I wanted the song to start and end in very different places. So it starts on that acoustic piece, and yeah, that acoustic piece. Pieces referenced again in the pre-choruses, but once we get through the second chorus, the song breaks down and turns into something completely different. It turns into this three-four section of acoustic picking with some really nice like bass leads over it. And it just gets really somber and calm and kind of haunting. The cool thing is it's the same chord progression from the chorus, but instead of you know a four-four tremolo picking kind of thing, it's a three-four, you know, doing like a little waltzy finger plucking exercise on the chord. So we're taking the same idea and we're just putting it in different contexts and different variations. So same four chords, but just presenting them in very different ways. And it ends up sounding super different, but it ties them together. So even though we're going from a fast-paced, heavy, you know, dark, assaulting battle themed chorus into a haunting, somber acoustic section, that melodic construction ties them together. So that's kind of how I how I try to develop the idea. Even though it could be considered a jarring transition, it's got that bass element tying them together. Um, so that's how I why I think it works.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Um and then when it comes back, it comes into a completely different type of riff. The whole rest of the song is in 3-4, I believe, I think. Um, and it's mostly like guitar leads until the end of the song. You know, it goes into these cool um these cool guitar harmonies, a couple of different variations on it, and then a guitar solo, and it's all just this big chugging 3-4 kind of thing. Um, and it eventually ends on that.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like, uh, if I'm understanding, for the most part, each section just follows the same chord progression, and then it you just yeah. And you yeah, and then you take and and that's the thing too, and like you said, like it's seven minutes. Um, so you it's like you don't have to always do a lot to keep it interesting for seven minutes. Little little changes can make all the difference. Like sometimes we just need a new quick little stimulation.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, and take a simple idea and develop it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. To piggyback off that real quick, um the final theory from Helium Prime is literally the same thing. That was a purposeful decision where I was like, I want to write this song and literally have every part like I I I wanted to go for it's not a poppy song, but I wanted to go for the pop vibe of like I'm gonna use the same four chords for every part, you know. Um, but each part's changed up, you know, and it I I think it keeps it interesting. It's not seven minutes, uh it's much shorter, but same sort of idea. Um, okay, so everyone, you said Let There Be Nothing, right?
SPEAKER_02Let There Be Light. Let There Be Nothing is a very different song.
SPEAKER_00Okay, oops, yeah, Let There Be Light. Go listen to that song, everybody, and sort of uh when you listen, keep in mind uh what Alicia said. And try try to do that if on your songwriting as well. Like get a chord progression you like and challenge yourself to write the whole song with that chord progression and see if you if you keep it interesting. A simple, like you said, simple thing of changing the time signature um can be enough and fantastic. Great. Before we get you out of here, I always do some rapid fire questions with the guest. So yeah, these were rapid fire. Rapid fire. So these I want you to just whatever comes to mind first, um, we'll go for it. And yeah, but before we do, I just want to say thank you so much for being here. This was a lot of fun. I love I love I love nerd talk about songwriting.
SPEAKER_01So hell yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, secretly I'm always hoping to learn something myself that I can apply. Um okay, so what do you think is a very underrated songwriting tool?
SPEAKER_02Very underrated songwriting tool. Um I would think I would say slowing your song down and and hearing it slow and really sitting with the with analyzing the little pieces like I was like I was mentioning earlier, using time dilation in Guitar Pro and Reaper.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh yeah, I like that one. That's one I've never tried, so um I think that's a great one. Most common songwriting mistake.
SPEAKER_02I would say overwriting. Um it's one I'm gonna I'm gonna throw at my boys in Metallica. You you just repeat things too many times and it goes on for too long, and you don't you don't edit it down. I think that's very easy to do in heavy metal.
SPEAKER_00Can I give a super hot take that you and others might get mad at me about?
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00I feel like death did that in their later years. Like there's a specific like I understand parts repeat and things come back, but there's something Death did and for the record, I still love all these songs, everybody, but there's something Death did that always just got to me. They would play out the structure of the song and go to, as we've called the Master of Puppet section, uh a bass, quick bass interlude or something, and then they just start the song over and go through it one more time, and I'm just like, huh, we're doing this on every song, huh?
SPEAKER_02So I I actually uh I agree. I think the sound of perseverance is super guilty of that. My favorite death is human because I think that that is like extremely tightly written.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um and again, I actually agree. I love the sound of perseverance. Uh Flesh and the Power It Holds is one of my favorite death songs, but it's super guilty of it. And that's the one I was referencing. Like it goes to the little bass interlude, and then the song just starts over. Uh and then they go through it again. Um, so yeah, I think overwriting, like the song, don't have the song be long for the sake of a long song.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And so fantastic. Yeah, I definitely agree with that one. Um, one of your favorite songwriters in metal or just in general?
SPEAKER_02Um, Michael Ackerfeldt from Opath is my favorite songwriter, probably of all time. Okay. Um, that dude can do anything, and he makes a 12-minute song sound like three minutes, and he can make a three-minute song infinitely re-listenable. Um I am always striving to be more like Michael.
SPEAKER_00Nice. I'll be honest, I I super expected Hanzi or Andre, but Michael's great too. Uh yeah. I I think my answer, I know this is uh this is for Alicia, but I would go with the the Guardian boys. Um okay, so what do you think is more important? Riffs or the arrangement?
SPEAKER_02I would say the arrangement. Um good good riffs can make an arrangement special, um, but a bad arrangement can ruin good riffs.
SPEAKER_00Yep, I agree. Um, and then this is one I always or two two more, sorry. Uh one I like to ask is just one of your like underrated rhythm guitar players that you think.
SPEAKER_02Mark Shelton from Manila Road, rest in peace. He is probably, I mean, even as a lead player, he's underrated. Uh everything about Manila Road is fucking underrated. Um but yeah, that guy had a 20 plus career, 20 plus album career, um, and he busted out riffs from old space rock to straight up death metal, um, all through the lens of like fantasy epic metal. And um honestly, like I he might be the goat. He might be the goat.
SPEAKER_00That makes me want to check listen a little bit more. Um, I love some good fantasy metal. Um yeah. And then last question just any advice you would give to up-and-coming uh younger guitarists and people wanting to get into guitar and songwriting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Learn songs. Learn songs. You're gonna have people tell you to do exercises all day long, and exercises are important. Don't get me wrong, don't skimp on the found on the fundamentals and the basics, but there is no reason you shouldn't be learning songs right away, and songs will teach you technique, songs will teach you structure, songs will teach you the bigger picture of why you're doing those exercises.
SPEAKER_00Yep, I fully 100% agree with that. Um learning songs is literally what made me a better songwriter. Like when I finally just sat down and dissected what these songs were doing, that's what helped more than any class in college, any book, anything. Like, you know, you start to, you know, talking about genres and stuff again, you you start to you learn, you start to learn the patterns because genres sound like genres for a reason, right? They're we're reusing things that have been done to get that sound, and you st and you start to figure out what those things are, and you're not copying, you're borrowing, if anything, but you're you're you know, uh power metal is gonna sound like power metal because of certain chord progressions, because of certain lead arrangements, death metals for the same reason, black metal, whatever. Um so especially songwriting, I would say learning songs, like what's helped me is if I really want to I'm like, man, I want to write a song like this, right? I don't know, I don't know how to do it though. I will listen and learn songs like this, whatever this is. And I'm like, oh, what are they doing here? Oh, they're doing this could chord progression that gives this sound, you know. You and then you take that and you you use it and you make it your own. Like you can't, you know, a song can't own a chord progression. Like chord progressions are what they are for a reason. So that's my long way of saying I absolutely agree with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and I know you know this and you kind of hit on it, but uh just for absolute clarity for the listener, I don't mean go learn a riff from the song. I mean go learn the song and jam that shit front to back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that yeah, because I feel also, and maybe you'll agree, I remember in my younger years when you did just learn riffs, right? We all learned the intro to one, or we all thought we knew how to play the intro to Master of Puppets, and and that was it. So then we're just playing these short little 10-second bursts of riffs, and you eventually sort of hit this moment of like, oh man, I need to learn a full song. So, yes, learn, especially if you're if you're really new and just starting, man, when you learn your first song, you feel so cool. Like all the way through. Yeah, you're like, oh, I'm unstoppable.
SPEAKER_02So I think the the first song I learned front to back uh was For Whom the Bell Tolls, and I felt like the hottest shit ever as I did that.
SPEAKER_00Man, I think I can't remember mine. I think uh I my brain wants to say The Trooper by Iron Maiden, but I could be wrong. I don't remember what my first full song was. Um but, anyways, that's besides the point. Thank you, Alicia, so much for your time. This was great. I love nerding out and talking songwriting. Uh, I know we did give some shout-outs in the beginning. Reminder, everybody, Grill Fest, September 12th, Midvale, Utah. The return of Alicia with Judicator. Um, but if there's any other shout-outs or things you want people to know before we get out of here, uh please inform them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Uh, feel free to follow me on Instagram. Uh, just look up Alicia Cordisco and uh Judicator is also on Instagram, Transgressives on Instagram, best places to follow all three, plus bandcamp. Um, so yeah, hope to see you out there. Fantastic. Jason, thank you so much for having me on here. I love the idea of this podcast, enjoying it so far, and happy to be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And if you're enjoying it out there and listening, please share it with your friends, review, do all that. Also, give feedback. I I love good constructive criticism uh on how I can make things better. So please let me know. And if you want to join the Discord, the Rhythm Dominion, find the link. Uh, I'm still kind of working through it and getting things going. I haven't even done a soft launch yet, but I will soon. But join it if you want to be around like-minded guitar players, songwriters, all that good stuff. Uh, we'll see you in the next one!