010 - What Makes a Great Rhythm Guitarist? ft. Nick Daggers (Celestial Wizard)

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Today Nick & I dig into what makes a great rhythm player and also share some very hot takes that will get us into trouble!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to Tone Chugs in Harmony, the weekly podcast where we discuss all things rhythm guitar, and through our guests, we tried to learn unique experiences, get their insight, and get their thoughts on what rhythm guitar means to them. Today I am joined by my good buddy Nick Daggers from Celestial Wizard. How you doing, man? I'm good. How are you doing, Mike? I'm doing great, man. I'm glad we're doing this. I know we've been playing it for a while. Um I always love chatting shit with you, so I'm excited to talk guitar. One thing we haven't done much of, actually. So I know, go figure.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Of all the things to the guitar.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Um I'd rather talk about things like Magic of the Gathering with Nick. Um and we talk about that a lot. So how you doing today, though, man?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I'm good. I'm good. As you can imagine, I'm busy all the time doing eight million things. We're, you know. Trying to figure out what to do with our downtime, really, uh in between tours is kind of our uh challenge and my challenge. Because of course, you know, when you're on tour, you know what to do. You show up, you play the show, you know, you do you do the tour thing. When you're not on tour, it's like, uh do I make content? Do I practice? Do we write more songs? You know, obviously, you know, writing is just a uh static part of it all. You're just always even if you're not intending to, you you know, chug down some riffs or not chug you you jot down riffs, you play them out. You know, I don't use guitar pro, so I'm always just sitting here with my my dog would be here. Um and I just it's I have probably 400 gigs of like one or two riffs each that will never get used because at this point they're so low on the stack right some of them of files, but something we forget about.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

I I've definitely gone back like sometimes when I need a little bit of respiration, like alright, let's check out these riffs from five years ago. But you know what? Sometimes, sometimes it works. Um sometimes it does. Yeah, I'm still sitting on one riff that I really like, and it's been a long time and I still don't know what to do. And that's the thing, is like not everything, man, it doesn't always just come. Like, I'm sitting on one riff I really, really, really, really like. I have no idea what to do with it. Um don't know where to go with it, don't know what to do with it. But I'm like, it's cool. Someday, but I've been saying someday for like 10 years now, you know, almost, it feels like so well if it's if it's any consolation.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Uh there's a riff that I wrote when I was a sophomore in high school. Uh so 2012, 2013. Uh that ended up becoming the main riff in Ice Rum off of Windsor the Cosmos, literally a decade later. So sometimes you just have to let it marinate, let it like sit in the cellar like a fine wine, and then you come back to it, you're like, oh yeah, this was cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

So oh yeah. Um the song Moon Watcher from my band Helium Prime. It that's one of the situations where it worked out. I had a riff, didn't know what to do with it, I liked it. Um, and then I had a song that needed like just one more part, and I was like, let me just slap this in real quick, and it was like boom, perfect. The missing piece. Um it's it's exciting when that happens for sure. Um cool man, so riffs, tour, and all that. Let's talk about your band and your role in the group and everything like that. So Celestial Wizard is your group. You guys are based out of Denver, but I'm gonna let you take it from here, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

So I play guitar in a band uh called Celestial Wizard. We're relatively new. We've been around, I guess you could say technically since like late 2018, 2019, but obviously we didn't, you know, when the world shut down, we had to not do anything for a little while either. So um, but yeah, it's cool. It's like a it's like a hour metal, death metal. And I don't even know if you'd call it a fantasy band. It's a it's a strange, it's a strange blend. I a lot of people are like, oh, it's like In Flames and Children of Bodem, kind of. Um, which is funny because prior to like a year ago, I didn't really listen to either of those bands. Um it was just kind of, you know, making music with my friends. Some of them really like heavy music. Our vocalist is does aggressive vocals. I like the power metal side of things. So that we kind of just like took everything we liked and mashed it together. Um we just uh we just put out this past July uh a new album, Regenesis. I don't have a copy here to hold up, but imagine that I do. Um it was probably our best work so far. I'm really proud of it. Um and we have gotten an gotten a lot of good reception from it and been able to tour a lot with that. Um yeah, it's just uh it's a gas, it's fun. I love playing guitar, it's a very guitar-driven band. Um the other guitarist we have right now, Major, is an incredible ripper and keeps me motivated so I don't look like a chump on stage. Uh, and that's awesome. Nice. So everybody's everybody in that band is really talented and it forces me to also really push myself in a lot of categories.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

So oh yeah, that's awesome, man. And uh do you guys, so speaking of you and the other guitarists, do you guys switch off leads together or is there a primary rhythm, primary lead player? How does that how does the dynamic work between you two?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah, this so this band, um, with all the guitars that we've had, I I am a founding member, and then we've just had, you know, a handful of very talented members kind of like uh come in for a while and then go on to other things. Um it's always been very much a dual lead band, and by the same uh the same metric, the same measurement. It also is kind of like there's no one true lead player, so it's just like it is a very just dual guitar. We both play leads and solos, we both very much commit to the rhythm side of things. Um, but yeah, there's no dedicated rhythm player. I think just because of the dynamic between members, I tend to become a little bit more of the lead player. Uh, just because I've been in the band longer, I think sometimes, you know, when we when we gain a new member, they're like, Oh, I don't want to step on anybody's toes. So I have to like push them into that. Like, please play some solos, please rip it up. You are talented, I want to showcase that as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

So yeah, well, you know, one of one of my favorite things is getting all these amazing rippers that are far better than me to to fill in those spots that I know I myself can't do, you know. Um, and it it it adds a lot, and so that's great to have the dynamic. Um, have you found uh one style over the other easier for you? Like, did lead playing come a little easier or did rhythm, like which one have you found more challenging, or possibly neither?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

You know, it's it's interesting because as much as I consider myself like a lead player, I think there's just a lot of power in the rhythm guitar that I really like one of my uh one of my dudes that I'm really inspired by is James Hetfield, who's very much like just the world's strongest rhythm player. Like incredible, very tight, um, and just the the power and presence you can get from just a good you know riff and a, you know, just the just the delivery that you can get with a solid rhythm sometimes is more effective than you know, a really strong lead. Like I'd almost wager if you took a song, and you see it almost with a lot of modern metal these days, like there's not a lot of bread and a lot of lead, it's a lot of groove and a lot of chug and a lot of like I don't know. Uh it's it's it's less virtuostic uh shredwise than it was in like the 80s and maybe early 90s, and now it's more of like the whole band comes together as like a rhythm unit and it's very much like a vibe. So uh where was I going with that? Um I have found for me, I really, really enjoy rhythm stuff, um, especially because I also do some vocals. Um so to be able to, it's hard to do like a really techie lead and also sing over it. Um but also it just when I'm coming into you know a lead or especially a solo, I'm very focused on not fucking it up. Am I allowed to curse on that? I don't know if that fucks up your good. Um yeah, I don't want to fuck it up. So I, you know, obviously you ham it up on stage, you make the paces, you do whatever, but I am like mentally very like dialed into like, do not blow this line, like this is a very like I have to be super focused with it, um, the shapes are super weird, or is it just a very like fast and and intricate you know, run. Whereas with rhythms, I can really like feel it and be locked in and like resonate with the crowd and you know move around a lot more. I really enjoy moving on stage, um, you know, running from one side to the other or like getting up on a a riser or whatever. And you know, when you're shredding it up, it's hard to do that. When you're playing a lead, you're just I don't know, it just feels more I don't know if primal's the word, but I just feel very like energized and powerful when I'm just like slamming through some good rhythms, you know, especially in a verse or a chorus or whatever. Yeah. So for me, I love rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think that's something I haven't talked about myself either, but like, you know, uh a rhythm player cliche is like I could I could play leads if I wanted to, and some of it's true. Like, I obviously have my limits, like I'm not about to go play a microromeo solo for you or anything, but you know, with some of my bands, especially like of Romulus, I played all the solos and leads on that because I wanted to challenge myself to do it since I've never really done it on other releases. But even when recording and playing, even the easier leads, I don't have as much fun as when I play the rhythms. And you said it better than I would have said it, but every statement Nick just said is how I feel about performing rhythm. I mean, sometimes just hitting a strong power chord when it hits just right is more exciting for me than playing a lead, you know. Um, like you said, it's the it's the power behind it. You can hit that chord and and and feel the punch, you know. Um a good a good downpick, energetic riff, simple or not. Just again, I like the words you used, primal. It was the perfect example. Um, I'm right there with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Music at the end of the day is such like an emotional thing. Um, I think people for the most part, obviously there's some dudes out there who don't. But like when I'm making music and when I'm playing music, it is a catharsis, right? And especially, you know, if I've got a riff that I really enjoy playing, or like uh uh chord progression, or some piece of that that like really feel, especially in the moments where like I really need to feel that emotion that I kind of captured the first time I wrote it. Like it's such a it's such an important thing, it's such a like you said, powerful or primal, or I don't know, there's just something about it, just the you really sink your teeth into it and you feel a certain type of way, especially with you know a strong rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Absolutely. Uh, was there a player now? You mentioned James Heffield, but was there a player that really made you sort of change how you thought about rhythm guitar? The answer could still be James Hetfield, but like I'm talking about a moment where you realize, like, oh shit, like this is actually very important and you know, very crucial to the foundation of the per of the of the song, the performance, everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, I mean Hetfield's the easiest answer because I'm just I'm such a uh Metallica fanboy. Um I remember back when I was in middle school, probably, uh, I was very into ACDC. And of course, like Angus Young is the fucking man in ACDC, and he's you know the poster child, and like he's the face of the band, basically. Um, but like I was playing with some friends at the time, and like you could call it a punk band. It wasn't really, it was just like, you know, a couple 11 to 13 year olds, and we all play guitar. There was like three or four guitarists in this band that we had. It was we didn't do anything with it. Uh, but one of the dudes was like, Yeah, but like Malcolm Young is kind of like the backbone of this entire thing, like everything that they're doing kind of falls apart if he's not holding it down on the back end, and the way that he plays and the way that it kind of like syncopates with the drums is actually way more technical than it sounds. He's just really good at doing it. And I did, I sat down and I watched some videos of him playing just them playing live, but focused on Malcolm, and I was like, oh shit. That actually is really cool the way he's doing that.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Um it's so easy to go ahead, finish your thought.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

No, no, no. That's that's I was just circling back on the same thing I said, so please go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

I was gonna say it's so easy to kind of forget about Malcolm too, because right, not only is Angus sort of the poster child, but if you if you notice with like ACDC performances, man, the only two dudes moving around is Angus and Brian. Like Malcolm and the bass player just stay back by the drums, which I always was like, I guess if they're happy with that, I I I but I'm like you, I like to move around. I couldn't I couldn't live with that myself. But um, yeah, so it's easy to forget. I mean, they almost become a stage prop, right? Um, and so and there it's like that is like the perfect example of actually something I want to talk about later, but it's the perfect example of how easily forgotten the rhythm is and overshadowed by lead playing. And again, this isn't shitting on lead players because lead is just it's all important, it all works together as you know a living entity, if you will. But it's so this is like ACDC, Angus and Malcolm is the great example of how easily oh well Angus is so good, it's like, yeah, but like you said, that rhythm section falls apart, it's not, it's not this the foundation's gone, you know. Um right. So let's actually, this is a great accidental segue. So perfect. Good job, Nick. He knows what he's doing. Um so those listening, we're trying something new today. Even though this will be the second episode you hear this week, this is the first one I'm recording, so the first time trying it, uh, we're gonna start having topics for the podcast to sort of help uh streamline the conversations and stuff. So today's topic is probably the simplest one to talk about, and maybe because of what this podcast is about, the first one. So even though it's the second you're hearing, it's the first one we're talking about. But what makes a great rhythm guitarist? So we're gonna we're gonna kind of brainstorm that together and get Nick's thoughts on what makes a great rhythm player. And again, it was it was great because you kind of already talked about a little bit of it with Malcolm, right? Um, but just to start, I'd love your general thoughts on what you think makes a great rhythm guitarist.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

I I want to lead this off by saying so many people view roles in the band like if you are not the vocalist or the lead guitar player, you're kind of just like auxiliary and not very important. And basically just like you're just filling the rest of what's left, right? Um, but my perspective on rhythm and you know, even bass, um, because so many people are like ah, fuck bass players. The band can't move forward without a strong rhythm and a strong like like you you are the the skeleton and almost the muscular structure of the band and the songs from a musical sense, right? Like the lead is the leads in the solos are kind of like you're dressing up the song, if you will. But the the core of it is the rhythm playing. Uh so I mean forgive me if I've already s if I've already strayed away from the point, but uh No, no, no, you're good. I mean the the the value of a rhythm player, I I it can't be it can't be overstated. I mean, there's just so many pieces of it like when you go see a band and the whether it's you know two guitars, one guitar, whatever, you know, if whoever is playing the rhythm guitar cannot play it properly, hold it down, you know, is is fucking some stuff up or he's out of, you know, he's out of time with the drummer or something like the whole thing sounds so bad. You fuck up a lead or two or a solo, the song's pretty salvageable. You know, so when especially in Celestial Wizard, like because we don't have a true, like you are the rhythm guitarist, you just need to be holding it down. Because we kind of both of us fill both roles just depending on the parts of the song, especially like if there's like two parts of the rhythm that kind of fit together sonically, like one's in a higher register, one's in a lower register, and they kind of like just fill out the sound a little more. You have to be locked in, and it's very important to play your rhythms well more than anything else. That's the beat of the song, you know. It is the most critical piece of the puzzle. When you're learning a song, um at any point in your life, I was gonna say as a kid, but you know, I learn stuff now. I start with the rhythms, like I don't go, I'm like, I'm gonna learn the solo first, and then what? Like when you play a song, you play the song, and a lot of that is, you know, the actual the the rhythms are the actual song. Leads are just putting on a fancy hat, basically. Right. Not in every case, but um I leads uh Jesus rhythm playing is the most important role in a band. And it sucks that rhythm players don't get the spotlight that lead players do because leads are flashy, you know. It's the the way songs are geared are meant to shine a spotlight on it. Like a solo, it's you're soloing this one person and you're letting them have the spotlight. Like you don't get that with rhythm stuff, maybe in a breakdown or uh, you know, like an interlude or something, but it's only for a couple seconds. Right. But it's just one of those like unsung heroes, like the nose is the unsung hero of the face. Like you don't think about it all. If you didn't have a nose, you look fucking weird.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah. Um and uh like rip go ahead. I was gonna say most rhythm guitar players, too, like you you you know what you signed up for and and you're okay with it. But I also want to bring uh mention two things to piggyback off this, but something we haven't discussed in the podcast yet, too, is like we focus on rhythm guitar, but it's important to know that like when we're talking about that, it's you know, uh someone who's a fantastic lead player can also be a fantastic rhythm player. So we're just talking about the performance of rhythm guitar, right? So it's like because yeah, not every guitarist has a um uh a designated rhythm player. In fact, it's probably less common for that to happen, right? But there's you know, think of guys like Eddie Van Halen, he's known for his lead playing. Not often do you hear people praise his rhythm playing, but my god, can that dude play some fucking nasty rhythm guitar? And when you go to learn like Van Halen riffs, it's like oh it doesn't sound too bad, and then like you're breaking it down, you're like, oh, damn, this is tasty and it's kind of difficult. Um, so that's what we're kind of talking about. Like this unsung heroes, even in the player itself, he's known for like the tapping, he's known for eruption, the guitar solo song, and all this. Um, but it's like when's the last time there's an article of like, man, Eddie Van Halen and his tasty shreds, you know, or sorry, his tasty rhythms. Um that's that's sort of I just wanted to bring that up real quick for people listening, is like even though I bring on players who do leads and stuff, it's like you can you do both, right? And you could do both well. Um, but it's again, it's it's again, it's it's shining that light on the unsung hero of the rhythm of the rhythm guitar and its importance. And you know, you mentioned to like write the solo that gives that person the moment to shine and maybe in a breakdown and stuff. And you know, one thing I actually love, and I know I mentioned this band a lot, but it by now, if you haven't figured it out, like I was inspired by it when I was younger. But one thing I always loved about Iced Earth is he was really good at writing sections that almost felt like a rhythm guitar player lead section because it was just such a sick fucking riff that um It was just rhythm guitar, you know. Uh Wolf, the song Wolf comes to mind. There's there's there's not even a guitar solo in that song, but you didn't fucking need it. But there's just this sick riff it goes into. Um, or Angels Holocaust is a great one where like all the music dies out and he's just playing this really intricate gallop pattern, and it's just like fuck. Um Metallica does it, right? I I guess like a rhythm guitar player section would be when you just get riffy for a while, you know. Um I actually uh to name drop another of Rami the song, our recent song, Balance of Fear. There was this section that like I knew because I've worked with Heather long enough that I knew she would write vocals over it. So I had to specifically tell her, like, don't write vocals over this riff. I want this riff to be by like it it goes two times and then repeats, and then vocals come in. But I was like, the two first two times let this riff fucking riff, you know. Right. Um to me that was like my rhythm guitar solo.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

So um hot take off of what you said just before we move away from it. Um I would almost posture that a good rhythm guitar player who can kind of play leads is way more valuable than a really like hot shot shredder lead player that can't play rhythms at all. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

I was actually gonna start getting to that, so I'm glad you brought it up, so I'm not the first. Um also, everyone, if Nick sounds different, we just found out that his mic has not been on this whole time.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

My bad, guys. So we're we're we're we're hitting our stride in the second, we're getting the second lap, we're gonna it sounds better, we're crispy.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yep. Um let's let's use this hot take to revisit the topic of today. Because I think what happened is we accidentally talked about what we love about rhythm guitar. Uh, but we haven't talked about what makes a great rhythm guitarist. Um, but a lot of things, or we haven't got into it yet, but the hot take is a great way to circle back to it because I have met many players who talk and you know I it's important for me to start this with saying I'm the first person to never claim I'm better than anybody. In fact, if you ever work with me, you'll know I'm probably the most insecure player out there. Um even after all this time, like I just assume I fucked something up. However, I've gotten a little more confident in things I can do and what to listen for. So I have met many people who sort of hype themselves up to be very sorely like, oh, no, that's not that's not how you do that. Um, you know, and the thing is, is I don't think it's like a cocky thing, but I think it's again a misunderstanding of what really is important and makes rhythm guitar great. I was jamming with someone recently just for fun. We were just jamming, and they were just like, Oh, I know this song, and I know that song, I know this song, and we're jamming and they're playing, and I'm sitting there like, man, they're playing every song wrong. And like, whatever, it's fine, because we were jamming, we were having fun. It wasn't anything serious, but it was just that reminder to me of like that the technique was bad, uh, it was sloppy, inconsistencies, and these are all important things because the thing is, is like it did sound like the riffs, you know. Right, like it was like close. Yeah, I could tell they were playing Iron Maiden, you know, so uh to them that's probably what they hear, and they're like, I'm playing it right, and they're they're not understanding the the fine details they're missing, you know. Um, the timing, consistency, groove, dynamics, like all that is so important, you know. And without it, it's like, yeah, you're playing the riff, but it's like to a casual listener, it's like, okay, yeah, you're playing it, but something but then you go hear Iron Maiden play it, and you're like, Well, why does it sound just better? And it's all those little those little details, um nuance. Exactly. And you know, something we talk about a lot here. We'll probably talk about it every episode because it's just that's a common thing, but the the timing, the locking in, yeah, you know, that is probably the most important thing for a rhythm player. Because again, like like you said, you flub a lead here and there, it's cool, man. And in fact, most people don't care. I wouldn't I don't freaking care, dude. If I saw an amazing dude, if I saw Michael Romeo and he missed one fucking note, well, I'd probably think the world's ending because it's Michael Romeo, but realistically, it's like you don't care. But if I'm watching a band and the rhythm is all over the place and it's flubby, and it's just like, oh man, I'm not into this. And if I remember, I want to talk about another hot take that's gonna get so many people mad at me, but I think this is the perfect one for it. It's gonna be a super hot take, but it's something I've been seeing in my algorithms on on social media lately that I feel we need to discuss on the podcast. But before we get into that, go ahead and finish your hot take thought and just again what makes rhythm guitar great, man? Like things I gotta maybe another way to ask it is what is important to you if you had someone come into your band, um, what would things you'd be looking for? Like the check mark for yourself of like they need at least to be able to do this. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

And it's I can speak with a with a fresh perspective because uh when Will uh Perkins uh ended up parting ways, um, he moved on to Viper Witch, cool band. Um we had to fill his spot. Um and we did for the first time prior to Will, we just didn't really audition anybody. We kind of just like found you know, either friends in the scene or like dudes that we thought were really cool and reached out to them and were like, hey, we have this project. Would you be interested in you know doing some work with us or maybe even joining the project? And pretty much every single time people have been like, Hell yeah, that's cool. Um, but this time we were like, let's audition people now that we have some, you know, other people know us the tiniest bit, maybe there will be people who come out from the woodworks that we don't know that are actually really cool. Um, so we auditioned a bunch of people, and it was interesting to see just the wide variety of like, you know, with where you were saying of like they're playing the song mostly. Like I can recognize it as like this is what the song would be, you know, whether it's Iron Maiden or you know, stuff that we wrote, whatever material they brought prepared. Um, you know, some people would crush it, other people would basically, you know, they learned it by ear and they like kind of had it. Um, but you could tell, like, they're not really playing it right, they're getting all of the key points mostly so that it's recognizable, right? It's the silhouette of the song, but you're not getting the finer detail, you're not getting the nuance. Um, and for some of those auditions, uh, it felt like uh recital more than a performance, is maybe the way I would say it. Like, you know, when you go see I don't do you have siblings? I don't actually know.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Uh I have one sister, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

But she's older. Fair enough. In my, you know, maybe you see it like a talent show or uh, you know, whatever. At some point in your life, you will see children try to play music, whether you're in you know, elementary school and it's like a school choir or like a talent show or whatever, and it's you can tell like they know the piece, but they're really just focused on like trying to make sure that they're playing it enough. Um, and then there's dudes that would come in to these auditions and you could tell that they knew it and they felt it and they could perform it rather than just regurgitate it. Um, and those those were the people that we were really stoked on. Um, and all of this stuff, like we didn't ask anybody to learn any leads or any solos, it was just like the meat of the song, not even sometimes full songs, like can you play this section? Because this is kind of a headache section, but it's a song we play live. Like, if you can't hang with this, then this isn't a good fit. And it was interesting, like, you know, the these these are rhythms, these are these are the backbones of these songs. There are leads that go over these pieces, but it was the rhythms that were more important to us. Um, because like you said, you see a band live, and if the rhythm's not tight, you're like, what is happening? Um and I think that's maybe that's why rhythm is so great, is it kind of defines the song, gives context to what you're doing, it shapes the piece, it moves it forward. Um it's the most critical guitar part in a song is the rhythm, even underneath the solo. Like I've heard so many times like live shows or live recordings, especially from like one guitar bands, like Ozzy for a while when it was just Zach, you know, obviously the bass was pretty thunderous in that project, but like the record versus the live performance, like the rhythms behind those solos are so strong and so um definitive that to not have them live and just the shred and then the bass underneath, it felt so empty.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Camelot, uh, just to just real quick, Camelot's a good example of that. Um, you know, when they were super riffy. Um, but I I listened to a live Camelot album that came out like years ago now when Roy was still in the band. And same thing, dude, is because they're a one band, they're a one guitarist band. So listening to the live versions, it sounds yeah, it sounds so empty when these these these monstrous riffs are happening behind the solo. Uh, and then when that's just gone and it's just the lead. Um Or even even something simple like uh if anyone knows Center of the Universe by by Camelot. Uh it's one of their intro tracks, I think, to Epica. But even that just starts some power chords and a power metal lead, like you know, copy paste your but even with just those chords missing, the punch is gone, you know. So I think that's what you were trying to say. Uh but just yeah, just giving another example of that, like, yeah. But then it's interesting because to bring Symphony X back up, Symphony X is a one guitarist fan, and for some reason that punch is not gone with those guys, but yeah, but they're on a whole other level, so you know. But I was just thinking about that. Like, I I've seen Symphony X live a lot, and I feel like it doesn't lose the thunder when Romeo's going into a solo. Maybe I'm just so captivated by Romeo that I'm biased. I don't know. Um, but anyways, continue.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah, and and and it is true that it is not every band. There are bands that really do make it work. Remind me, does Symphony X do they have a keyboard player live? That helps a lot.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

That's probably filling in the space, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yes, it's it's that that mid-range uh just like tonal spectrum. When I saw Dream Theater Live, of course, it's just John Petrucci playing guitar. Um, but to also have like the bass and the synths behind some of these leads or some of these more open um verses where it's not a chord progression, it's more of a lead riff. Um, those keys really fill it out. So I would say like you can do you can do a one guitar project. I'm not saying that every band has to be two guitars, but you have to know what you're getting into and you have to compensate to a degree because rhythm guitars are so important. If you're not gonna have a rhythm guitar, you better know how to make it sound good without one. Also, whenever I sit down to practice guitar, I don't start with a whole bunch of lead work or solos or scales. I'm just chugging out a bunch of riffs and chord progressions and shapes that are really just they feel good and they're fun to play. Like that's how I warm up and get my hands moving a little bit, is just like my favorite one, especially like in sound checks. I play um uh Blitzkrieg, I think Diamond Head did it originally. I know the version that was like bonus Metallica off of Ride the Lightning, but like that strumming pattern and that like progression moves all over the neck, and it's just it just feels good and it's fun to play, right? So for me, like my my first inclination is to play some rhythm stuff. I don't sit down and go straight to shred. I never do. That's not like my I I'm not a noodler like that most of the time. I love, you know, but I'm getting away from myself. The the the point being, rhythm guitar is critical, and you can tell when bands don't have good rhythm or don't have rhythms at all, and it's just one dude who's like he's a shredder, he's really good, he's you know, you know, incredible to watch when he's ripping around. But then when it comes to the rhythms and the rest of the song, like unless it's this is an instrumental band and it is just you know, bass drums, guitar, and everybody is just a fucking prodigy, and it's they're just like you know, trading licks and stuff, that's a different genre entirely. But for the genres that I play in and that I enjoy listening to, like, you do have to have it's it's the rhythm the rhythm section is way more critical than anything, you know, fancy that you're shredding on top of it.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Uh we we talked a little bit about this, but I want you I I want to like you actually the the give your thoughts. Like, why do we think and you know I'm sure it's a an obvious answer, but why do we think lead guitar gets far more attention? Especially when again the lead is such a smaller role, but it's like when get when guitarists look at that younger guitarists, especially that's that's the part they walk away with, like, oh my god, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah. I think I think there's a maybe maybe three pieces to it. One it's almost the attitude of like we've always done it this way, so we continue to do it this way, of like as far back as it goes when they first started having solos and songs, because if you go back far enough, there aren't. You you know, some of these like Elvis songs, or I don't fucking know, like stuff that's so far back. Um it's just the song, it's you know intro if it's got one, but it's like verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus reprised, the song's done. And then at a certain point, there was like a a shift in I don't know if it was just attitude or perspective, but something came into being where they were like, What if you know we do the verse and the chorus a couple times, and then we have like a really cool guitar part, and that kind of shaped into what solos have become, and now and I mean I'm guilty of it in my own songwriting. Uh Tim, our drummer, sent a song a couple weeks ago uh that was just like the bones of it. And my first thought is where does the solo go? So it's definitely, I think a lot of people are just like they're geared to like songs have guitar solos now. Um, and you know, I love playing a guitar solo. I don't think that I have written one song that doesn't have one, so maybe you know, those in glass houses, right? Right. But I think we've always kind of especially like the last three generations of guitar players, I've always just like cool, like lead guitar is primary guitar, rhythm is a back seat. Um, and I think the other half of that too is it's very marketable, right? Like someone who can do a thing that's not easy for everyone to do. Like, you know, back in the day, Eddie Van Halen or uh Paul Gilbert, or any of these dudes who are incredibly talented musicians and are doing these runs and these licks and playing these shapes that not everybody can play, even if they're a good, you know, a strong intermediate guitar player, like they can hang in most crowds. Like these are people who are cut above. Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, these you know prodigious guitar players. And from there, I think guitar companies were like, oh, these guys really stand out because of the way they play. We're going to, you know, promote them, push this kind of like shredder style thing because it helps us sell products. So I think also another reason why lead guitarists are so valued in the media or perception over rhythm guitars, is it's easier to market. Everybody can, you know, the the rhythms kind of sit in the background while you have this stuff that like literally gets a spotlight shown on it. You go to a show, they play a solo, they get up on the Ego riser, or there's a spotlight, or whatever, you know. So not only is it it's cool and it's fun, and it makes you feel good when you're the one shredding, you're getting all the attention, you know. It is cool from one musician to another to see a dude play something really cool, and then companies can market the hell out of that. You know, Jackson, whoever, these guitar companies are like, cool, do you want to shred and be as cool as this guy and be in the spotlight and do all these things? Buy our guitars because that's who they play, you know, and then now we've kind of come into like these guitarists are not starting their own brands, you know, Toast and Abbassi or whoever. He's not necessarily like, you know, uh the archetypal wind blowing in your hair, shredder, like, but you got you know, slash or these dudes who are like already larger than life personalities, and they also play these things that stand out on top of the rhythms. From a songwriting perspective, they're not critical, but from a performance perspective, and for the fan, that's just something that's like, wow, that's so cool. That resonated with me. And sometimes you do get leads or solos or some sort of like soaring guitar part that does hit you, you know, emotionally, or you you feel it a certain way. 100%, you know, and those those pieces are valuable, they add a lot to it, you know. Like um, oh, what is that song by Nevermore? Believe Believe in Nothing, Something Nothing. Doesn't matter. The solo in that, when it comes in, it like it just really lands a certain way. Um, but also it lands a certain way because of the chords underneath it give it a lot of context and they work together in I mean, no pun intended, in harmony with each other to create this really cool moment in the song. Right? The rhythm is what drove that. The solo over it is kind of like it's maybe think of it this way the rhythm is the ground beef in a taco, and the lead is the seasoning. You can't just have a taco with only the seasoning and no beef. You could have a taco with unseasoned ground beef. One part is definitely more critical than the other. But when you have them together, it's fantastic, it's the best of both worlds. Yep. But to to come back to what you were saying, I think that's why maybe lead guitar is so prevalent and so important to young guitar players who are learning, are people who are like, I just want to establish myself the best way to do that is to be a shredder. Like, we've kind of just been conditioned as musicians, is like that's the way to go. You know, you've got all these, especially with the advent of like YouTube and social media, like you know, it's bigger than ever, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Because you gotta get them in ten seconds. Like, you gotta get them in ten seconds. What's the best way to do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Exactly. And there's and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of dudes to that are like they have like a cool riff and that grabs you, but for the most part, it's like, you know, uh these these shredders, especially now when it's just like you're just scrolling past, you gotta get them in 10 seconds, like you gotta have a crazy look straight out the bat, straight off the bat, straight out the gate. And uh it that lends itself to the shredder too. So it's just one of those, like what grabs people the most and what is the most marketable for these companies who are endorsing these artists, and just in general, the whole it's always been this way, so that's how we will continue to do it. You know, now I I don't know how many generations in I would consider myself to be from like the first like shredder solo, but I mean we're six generations deep at least. I mean, from the eighties to the nineties to the two thousands, we're in the twenty twenties already, like for the last fifty years, you know, with the Ozzy and Priest back in the 70s, there's been guitar solos. So now we're just like, cool, guitar solos are just a non negotiable piece of most of these songs, and so we do, and then it just perpetuates the cycle of like solos and lead players are more valuable because you can't have the song without. It which is not true, it's just the thought process behind so many of these perspectives, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

That was probably the best answer anyone could have given. And I didn't think by asking you that question we would be uh breaking down the walls of the music industry. But fucking let's give some claps to Nick for that one. That was good, dude. That was that was great. Uh that was a fantastic answer. Like I I would almost believe that was prepared, but I know it wasn't because he didn't know I was gonna ask him that. I'm coming in blind, yeah, dude. Good job, man. Yeah, great. I I literally have nothing I can add. Like you said it all, dude. Um, and honestly, it was stuff I never really thought about. I I didn't think about the marketing side of it and all that. And you're so right, man. And you know, we are all just especially these days, man, we're conditioned by what we see and what we're told. So that's what you see, that's what you're told. And I'll and also something else I want to bring up too, just uh a sideline that kind of like off something Nick said, but just to go on record here, like we love lead guitar around here too. Okay, we love it guys. Straight up. Like I mean, I've I've mentioned Michael Romeo a lot. Um and I swear there's others I like, he's just my one of my favorites. But the point is, is it's it's a rhythm podcast, so we're gonna highlight what is the underdog, if you will. So when it feels like we're bashing leads, it's it's that's not the case. It's it's just shining the light on like why rhythm's important, but both are fantastic, both are great. Like you said, like there's many solos I've heard or or lead passages that make you feel an emotional connection. I mean, again, probably the band I could think of most that does that for me is Iron Maiden. Yeah, like probably more than their riffs. It's the lead playing of Maiden that fucking that's where it's that's the bread and butter, dude. Like, I mean, uh a song I love, it's it's a quote newer song, not really anymore, but it came out in the 2000s. But dude, Dance of Death, there's so yeah, dude. After the big solo section, it comes into that three-piece harmony. My god, it's fucking magical. So yeah, you know, lead's great. But there's rhythm on there's rhythm and melody behind that too, though. So, you know, it all it all works again, it all works together. But yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Just a quick aside on that, it's almost an argument for how important rhythm is. I know that like there's been a lot of times where they didn't have three guitar players, uh, but in the times that they do, especially live, you can have that sweet, harmonized lead and still have a rhythm behind it that keeps the song grounded, and that's it sounds so much better that way than like two leads, no rhythm. I'd rather have one lead, one rhythm, than two leads, no rhythm. Yep. Most times.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Absolutely, absolutely. Um okay, this is a great way to segue back to my hot take. Because I was gonna I was gonna mention Iron Maiden with this. I was gonna mention not the three guitarists, but it's the great example of it. So you mentioned earlier with your hot take of you know, um having a stronger, I think what what was it, having a stronger rhythm player who's like okay at leads over a great leap. Yeah. So here's my hot take, man. People, Metallica boys need to realize that Kirk needs to fucking step his shit up. So big time. Here's here's what's been circulating my algorithms the last few days is a bunch of videos of Kirk just fucking shit up live. Yeah, all and not just one situation, and I've seen this for a while now, many times, and everyone's like, Oh, he's old, he's just human, he's just playing it. Happens. It's like, yeah, it happens, but no, stop. Like, he's in the biggest fucking metal band in the world. You're paying thousands of dollars uh to go to this show. He can play his goddamn easy solo that he's played his entire fucking life, uh, and not and not just like, oh, I missed a note, atrociously fuck it up.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Uh yeah, it's um not and part of me wondered too, like maybe his IEMs were like fucked up. But some of those videos, he's just fucking it up. He's not even like off time or there's like a latency or something. Yeah, he's just blowing it.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

And and so people use the uh you know, um, you know, he's older, blah blah blah. But it's like Iron Maiden. Those dudes are older than Metallica. There's fucking three of them, and they're killing it, you know. Yep. Uh there's veteran thrashers, Exodus Testament, who sound better than ever. So I'm sorry, there's no excuse you can give me for the kind of laziness that we're seeing from Kirk these days. Listen to his writing, you know. Um, but here's here's score one for rhythm guitar. Why does Metal Metallica still sound decent live even though Kirk keeps fucking it up? Because James Hetfield's still holding it the fuck down.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yep. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

You know what I mean? Like if he was fucking up too, because even Lars is fucking up, but James is like, alright, I'll fucking I'll carry this shit, you know, him and Robert, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Um they really are, man.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

They really are carrying that whole and we love Metallica here, and I def dude, I will defend younger Lars. Like, dude, you watch the live shit videos, Lars was on fire, man. So like this isn't a fuck Lars thing. This is a they got way too comfortable, and it's starting to start today.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

They're just too comfortable. Yeah, they know they're gonna sell out every time. Yep, they don't they're not worried about it.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Yeah, so yeah, my hot take is Kirk needs to please stop being lazy because it's whatever, dude. You don't you don't need to, man. Uh I don't know. I well, I guess he doesn't need to not be either, right? So he's there's an integrity to it of like, yeah, you know, you know, because it at the end of the day, he's he's still in Metallica, and I'm bitching about him on a podcast. Um but it's just something I wanted to bring up because I've been seeing it lately, and it's more just the comments I've seen defending him, where it's like, no, there's nothing here to defend. Man, if it was like one, oops, okay, but the fact that it's consistent and it's it's not even on like one of his heart, it's on things that you shouldn't be messing, it's on things that I could fucking do. And remember, I'm I'm I when I'm in a room of guitarists, I automatically assume I'm the worst guitarist. So, point is he shouldn't be fucking it up.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Um so again, I'm also like Kirk is a very capable guitar player, it's not like he's just bad and he's doing his best, like we know that he can play these things really well, and he has done for the last 40 something years. Just all of a sudden, is he not practicing? Yeah, you know, like it's not it's he's getting called out for being lazy because we we've seen him do it really well. Yeah, we know he can do it, he's just not doing it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Exactly. Um so to bring Maiden back up, right? They're they're older than Batallica, you know, um, and those boys are still on fire. Those three guitar players, they're still playing together just perfectly. I mean, you know, again, to showcase the importance of rhythm guitar, a lot of the times they're playing the same thing because the song just has the riff while the vocals are going on. So you have it's hard enough with two guitars to lock the fuck in. So you got three that need to like lock in so it doesn't because if so it doesn't sound like this jump because the thing is is like they could all three be playing the riff exactly right, but if one's ahead, one's behind, and now there's three of you, that's just gonna sound like a mess.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

So yeah, super washy and very yeah, uh unclear.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Like we've all been there when we're recording, and like you might have played both parts clean, but they're not in time to each other, and like if especially with like a gallop riff or something, you hear the the wibbly wobbly, you know. Uh so yeah, so I'm sorry, but you can't use the age as an excuse uh with me when there's so many of these guys, and again, the thrashers and anthrax just put out a new single that fucking crushed, dude. It sounded great.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

I'm I'm stoked for I I don't want to call it a comeback because they've been here for years. Um but like the new stuff feels very reminiscent of like spreading the disease era anthrax, and that's exciting for me.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Hell yeah. I just wanted to shout out anthrax. Hell yeah. But to wrap this up before we get into the the last part of this, um I love Metallica. I got no hate for Kirk, man, but it's just it I guess it's important again as as the we're we're here trying to do our best to educate and hopefully help someone along the way. Just have those standards for yourself of like just stay strong, man. And like you get you if you get comfortable, he's a good example of what happens once you get comfortable. You know, he he no longer has anything to prove, and it's showing. Um that being said, though, still love them, dude. I will always love Metallica. I'll and here's the thing, after saying all that, I'll still defend Kirk that if that's what he wants to do, fuck it, man. He's Kirk from Metallica, so like Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

At this point, like you said, they don't have anything to prove. They're just kinda they're doing they've been doing their victory laps for a long ass time now.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yep. Alright, we're gonna get into our lightning round, Nick, before we get you out of here. So this is just asking you a couple random questions. Don't think too hard about them and just give kind of your first answer. Um, all right, so most underrated rhythm guitarist, in your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Underrated rhythm guitarist.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Uh Bob Catsyanis of formerly of Firewind, he's not in the band anymore. Um, but when it was the two of them and he was playing keys and picking up rhythm guitar duties, they they sounded incredible.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Dude, that guy. I don't hear anyone talk about that guy. I know this is supposed to be lightning rounds, but it's my podcast. So there's that video of God, what is that so what is that instrumental firewind song? Like through the fire and the fury or something? No, that's through the is that what it's called? Yep, fire and the fury. Fire and the fury, not through. Yeah. Um, have you seen the live performance of that?

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yes. Oh, yeah. Uh whatever that 2003 DVD is or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

I was more impressed with him than Gus. I was like, who is this guy? Because he starts treading both, you know. And I'm sure you know Gabriel Guardian from Immortal Guardian and not Power Glyph. So I didn't know Gabe yet. Uh, so this was my first kind of time seeing someone do the guitar keyboard duel. And the yeah, you know, and I was like, whoa. And then of course I met Gabe and I was like, that's fucking sick. But you don't see many dudes do it. Like him and Gabe. No, I'm sure there's others, but those are the only two that come to mind. Um, anyways, I'm gonna I'm gonna go with you on that one. Just that dude's great. So I just I had to bring that up because I never get a chance to talk about that. But that performance is like one of my favorite performances because I was just like, whoa, it's guys so good. So good. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. All right, one album every rhythm guitarist should study.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Ooh, that is a good one. Um, and I know that we have uh we've really been in on the Metallica situation. Um I think, and God, you could make an argument for like anything and Justice for All and back, but for me, and Justice for All for rhythms, just because not only are the riffs kind of interesting shapes, but the strumming patterns are weird, and sometimes the time signatures get a little funky. Um went wild on that album. Yeah, and it's not one of those, like, oh, this is like the most technical playing ever, but it's also not like ACD, like I don't want a dog on ACDC now, but it's not like ACDC is very accessible for most musicians. It kind of the And Justice for All kind of sits in the middle for me of like it's just complicated enough to be interesting, but not too complicated that it's not accessible for most people who want to sit down and learn some of those songs, and it's a very rhythm-driven record, like there's there's some shred on there for sure, but like I mean, and Justice for All is seven fucking minutes, and the solo is maybe 30 seconds of that. Like, you know, so great example.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Um, even Black End, the Yes, that has a much longer, yeah. But even that solo section, it's a much longer solo section, but James beneath the solo is going fucking wild.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yes, so I think if you can find, you know, I'm sure they've got it on YouTube or fucking wherever, like isolated rhythm tracks of whatever song, like go check them out. They're tight as fuck, they're really cool. Um, I think the rhythms under any soul, any solo in any of Metallica's entire discography, the rhythms underneath the solo or make the solo what it is, not the playing, not the shredding itself. Yeah. 100%. Agree. And I'll die on that hill.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

I'm with you, brother. I'm I'm on that hill with you. Uh, one exercise everyone should do.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Ooh, uh, can I can I have two? Yes. Down picking. Um, I thought that I was pretty strong with my down picking, and then you and I did some stuff together, and I learned that I am nowhere close to where I thought I was. So work on your down picking. Fucking critical, especially if you're a musician that tracks, you do recording, down picking all your songs as much as you can gives you that consistency. Also, um, alternate picking. Uh, it can help tighten up your gallops, any of these two-string, three-string riff shapes that you're playing. Alternate picking and down picking. Learn, tell you what, generalize it, get your picking technique down. I don't care how many scales you know, I don't care how fast you are, get your picking techniques really tight.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Yep. Uh, I wanna I want to throw a reminder just because we're a few episodes in now, and I I like to kind of cross things over when a when a point has been made. But the very first episode with Donnie, Donnie from Krayla Filth, who is a fucking insane shredder, everything, he brought up this same point where he was talking about lead playing and the importance of understanding your patterns, your pick hand, because if you can't do any of that, then the lead it don't matter. So yeah, that was kind of the point Nick just made. So I wanted to kind of cross that over of like that's two people now stressing the importance of you want to get to the point of even sh shredding or soloing, picking patterns. It's the rhythm's still important. There's still rhythm in the leads, like rhythm is everything, rhythm is you know, rhythm is all. Um but it's all there, it's all important. Um, so I just wanted to shout that out. Shout out, Donnie. Um, yeah, because that's too if you don't believe me, believe Donnie. That guy knows what the fuck he's doing. Um okay, and finally, I always like to ask this question is just what is some great advice you would give to new guitarists wanting to get into rhythm guitar, honestly, just guitar, metal guitar. Who man, if there happens to be a a kid who likes country listening to this for some reason, what's up, dude? Um, just what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Practice to a metronome.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

I if there is nothing else that you obviously the the unspoken piece of that is practice. No one's gonna get anywhere without actually putting in the time. With anything, ever, if that's the case. But when you're practicing, like it's fun to jam along to songs and whatever. But if you're if you are a musician of any age, but mostly kids, um, and you're just learning, you're just starting. Learn to practice to a click or a metronome or some sort of beat keeping device, um, because it helps train your brain to lock in, and especially with rhythms, you want to be tight, you want to be consistent. Um having some sort of, like I said, beat keeping situation, click metronome. Everyone's got a smartphone or whatever these days. They got free apps, put one on your phone. If you're sitting, you don't even need an amplifier. Unplugged, it could be acoustic, it could be electric, whatever. Practice to a metronome. Doesn't have to be the entire time you practice. At some point in your practice, practice to it. I start and end with uh click practice um just to warm up and then to cool off again, just depending on what I've been working on. Metronome, metronome, metronome all the way up. It will make you tighter with yourself, it will make you tight with other musicians, it will make you seem like you're way more professional than a lot of us actually are on the inside, uh, just because you can keep time really well. Um, and it just makes things easier to learn in general because you're not flubbing over like, oh, I'm trying to play this, but I keep getting off time. Like practice to a metronome. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

Love it. All right, Nick, thank you so much, man. I um I had a great conversation with you, man. It was really cool to get to dig into your brain for a little bit. So before we get you out of here, thank you. Before we get you out of here, I know we talked about your stuff stuff in the beginning, but if you got anything coming up, if you have just any final shout-outs you want to do for yourself or your bands, please do it. Let people know where to find you, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Yeah. Um the the the old shout-out spread. Um yeah, absolutely. Plug your shit, they say. Meta band Celestial Wizard. We make cool heavy music. I don't really know how to describe it other than like, you'll like it, go listen to it. Um, we have tours coming up uh that aren't announced yet, but they will be. I just can't say anything until they are. So, on that note, follow us on the social medias. That's where we'll be posting these things. That's where we'll be like, oh, come see us on tour. Um live music is important. More now than ever, go see artists that you like. Not just the big ones, but the small ones too. If you have a friend in a band, go see them, even if it's not your favorite kind of music. Um I think everything is so corporate and commodified or commoditized, whatever that word is, that the last true you know for sure that it's not gonna be AI. Go see live music. Go see your friends, go see the artists you do enjoy. Come see us on tour when we go. My name's Nick. I'm in a band. Play music. Please. Don't AI generate anything. AI is for Mark Assbusters. If you take anything away from anything I ever say, make real art.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

100%. Period. 100%. Alright, thank you, Nick. Um, everybody listening, please uh give the podcast a follow. Share us with your friends if you think they'll enjoy it. Go ahead and join our Discord Rhythm Dominion. Uh, we are building a community of like-minded rhythm guitarists. Also, let us know in the comments what topics you might want us to talk about on a future podcast, and we might discuss it. Uh, in the meantime, just thank you for your support. Thank you so much, and we'll see you in the next episode.