🐉“Behold, A Great Red Dragon,…” | How Cultures Interpret the Dragon

What do we see when we read about the great red dragon in Revelation 12?

In this episode of Faith Across Borders, Samuel explores one of the Bible’s most vivid and mysterious images: the dragon. Together with Rev. Fulco Timmers and  Rev. Dr. Larry Dorkenoo. Two people from different cultural and theological background. They reflect on how Revelation 12 is understood across contexts — from African experiences of spiritual reality and evil to Dutch and Western approaches that often look for nuance, symbolism and social meaning.

Is the dragon a spiritual being, a symbol of evil, or a force that works through political, social and economic systems? And why does a text like Revelation, often seen as difficult or distant, still matter for our lives today?

The conversation moves between personal experience, biblical interpretation, spiritual warfare, empire, culture, technology and the hope at the heart of Revelation: evil is real, but it does not have the final word. Believers overcome “by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.”

A rich and honest conversation about fear, faith, symbolism and the power of reading the Bible through different cultural lenses.

In this episode:

•  Revelation 12 and the image of the dragon 
•  How different cultures understand evil and spiritual warfare 
•  Why Revelation can feel difficult or distant 
•  The dragon as symbol, spiritual reality and social force 
•  African and Dutch/Western perspectives on spiritual reality 
•  The hope of overcoming through the Lamb 

Listen and discover how one biblical image can open up very different worlds — and deepen the way we read Scripture together.

Faith Across Borders is a podcast by the Netherlands-Flanders Bible Society. In each episode, we explore how the Bible speaks across cultures, communities and lived experiences.

Enjoyed this conversation? Follow the podcast, share this episode, and join us as we discover how Scripture connects people across borders.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The Bible has the same texts around the world, but it is not experienced the same way everywhere. Welcome to Faith Across Borders, a podcast by the Bible Society for the Netherlands and Flames. I am Samuel Lekpo. In this episode, Reverend Dr. Larry Decano and Reverend Femco Temers reflect on Revelation 12 and explore how different cultures look at the dragon in the book of Revelation. So in the studio today, we have two guests. We have Reverend Femko, who is also a Dutch theologian, a pastor in charge of the clusterker, and is so passionate about biblical scholarship in everyday life. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

And our second guest is Reverend Dr. Larry Decano, and he is the senior minister in charge of Rivers of Life Bible Church in Amsterdam, and a seasoned leader with a strong background in business, ITC, and the global ministry. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Thank you so much. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Thank you very much. So today we'll be looking at Revelation chapter 12. And uh I discovered some symbols like the dragon. It has different interpretations. And I see Revelation 12 as an apocalyptic literature. And uh symbols represent several things. In your own home culture, what does Revelation chapter 12 represent?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Uh the whole of uh Revelation chapter 12. Well, uh well, you know, it's always good to look at things uh put in a context so we can kind of have a good understanding of what a particular situation is about. So it is more or less at the center of the book of Revelation, and I think in it you find out that it's kind of uh captures or encapsulates uh, you know, what happened with man, the original saying, and then all the way down to uh the end of the age when everything is recreated. So it's a kind of interesting book because it has a lot of information which touches on different aspects of the scriptures. And then you were asking about uh the dragon, of course. Um I think growing up as a child back in Africa, uh we may have heard stories about dragons, maybe about a serpent or a python, but not really about dragon. It's not really part of our culture and uh our our uh growing up. Uh but I think I first encountered the dragon in the scriptures. Yeah, and of course, from the scriptures, we know that it's symbolic of the devil, you know, and that is for me basically the meaning that I have carried with me all this while. I have no other uh interpretation to what a dragon and uh symbolically stands for. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, ideally, we we notice that this text is about spiritual conflict, spiritual warfare. And like you said, the dragon represents the the devil. And I'd like to ask uh Reverend Uh Tema, how do you interpret this text from your Dutch European context?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, your your question uh with the Revelations chapter 12 made me realize that in my context, uh uh Revelation is is not a very much uh discussed or even uh preached about uh topic. Uh, and in and I imagine that if I would ask uh people in my congregation about Revelation, the answer would be something like, Well, that's a very difficult uh book, uh, there's a lot of imagery in it. Um it it's so it's it's it's quite removed from their uh let's say everyday experience. Um at the same time, uh I I feel I I recognize or um feel the same about the the dragon being uh the symbol for and being identified with uh evil itself and uh evil powers active uh also today. Um for I think a book like Revelations, it it it it it well the the term apocalypse of course means well revealing something or something that's hidden um behind what's happening in the past but also what's happening today. So it's it's it's a in a sense uh a timeless book. It reveals something about the Roman authorities uh in in the time when it was written. Um but what is being revealed uh is is in large part relevant for our current times as well. So I would feel that even though uh in my congregation and in my context it's a bit uh sort of put away, uh maybe we should uh blow the dust from uh from this uh this book and and and uh show how it's it's it's most relevant for for our current times as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, I would like to build on your statement that it's removed from everyday life. Is it that people are afraid to read it, or it's very complicated to understand? Let's hear from you. How do you unpack such uh dynamics?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, yeah. Uh it is, I think it is complicated, um, and and that does justice to the book itself because it's it's meant to be complicated. Uh it's meant to be full of imagery uh that that asks interpretation. What is this about and how does this apply to uh to our time? Um and and uh I I think this is what we also the task of me as a theologian and a biblical scholar should be to to unpack it for my uh for my readers, so or my congregation. Um so I could ask them uh first I would I think I would look at uh what uh dynamics, what what what what power dynamics, for example, um are present in the text and in the context where the um so what I said to the Roman uh empire, for example, what what's happening there? What what kind of key figures are are prominent there, like the emperor and uh the military power of of the Roman Empire, and and how does that translate to our current situation? Can we recognize this kind of uh empirical, it's not the um how you say it, uh this kind of empire in our current times? What are the empires that are present today? We could look at political constellations. Um uh, but I read a book uh that has a title The Empire of AI, for example, um, which in a sense explains or tries to show how uh AI development uh can have aspects of this sort of uh empire power, uh sucking out not only energy but also sort of in a sense um living on the souls of people. Uh so that makes it shows how it's relevant and and it all connects back to this dragon, this power of evil being active. Uh I imagine in our times as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Oh, yeah. Thank you very much for that extensive uh explanation. To Reverend. Oh, you want to add in, yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

If there were a dragon in the world today, anywhere in the world, I'm sure by now would have managed to capture it to put it in the zoo so that everybody can see what it looks like. It may be a mythical, let's say, uh emblem, uh you know, to typify evil. Uh and and I think that is what it's because basically because you know, in the uh Revelation chapter 12, you see a lot of symbols, you know, being uh used there. I think it's on purpose because it registers very, very well in our memory. See, when you're told a story and pictures and emblems are uh are employed. And that is why most of the parables of Jesus were done with, I mean, were done like in a story format, and you can picture it vividly what is being spoken about. And the image of a dragon in this story, I guess, is to let people see that something terrible, terrific, something dangerous, something evil, and you know, that that that alone, you know, when you make you see you hear about it, it puts fear. You know, imagine a child being told about a dragon. The child will be so scared, even in the night, cannot sleep. You see, so I think it's on purpose. So, like uh uh Pastor Fico said here, too, we need to be able to unpack it to the ordinary person who has no understanding of all these symbols and images, and to make it relevant, to let them say, hey, this dragon is dangerous, it's evil, it represents the devil. So don't fall into the top of the devil, something like that. So it's a way of communicating something that's terrible. People must not get close to, for example. So that's how what I was saying out to what he has shared with us.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yes. I and maybe to build on on what you said, uh you you know, you said something that while growing up, the dragon was not something you really associated with, not until we encountered it in the scriptures. Now, I'd like to understand, and maybe for our audience, the the cultural perception of spiritual warfare. How would you put in context uh the presence of the dragon? You said something very profound, both of you. Uh, you know, it represents uh the uh the the empire who were very uh let me say uh you know, very forceful and and evil. Uh, but somebody who says if we serve a good God, why should we have evil? So, how would you uh from your own context explain the the concept of spiritual warfare that is very much present even in the age of AI?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Absolutely, yeah. You know, uh as an African, yeah, you know, growing up, uh I think the concept of evil uh wasn't so far removed from from us. You know, we we really we saw it, we experienced people who have been affected by evil of one one way or the other. You know, so I'll never forget this. There was one young guy, was a peer, he was growing up, and he did something terrible. He stole his mother's money and never lied about it. And so the mother, desperate uh for know who stole the money, the mother pronounced a curse and said, Whoever took this money, uh, he invoked the thunder against the person. And then one afternoon, we were all there and suddenly the scream and a shout went out. This guy, it was a big thunder. I heard that very well. A big thunder and lightning. Then the next thing we heard, this guy was struck dead. Died just like that. I'd never forget that uh thing. So the power of evil is something that I've seen and I've experienced. You see, and so uh, yeah, it's not difficult for me to associate with it. And so when I come to the Bible, the Bible says, hey, flee from all appearance of evil. There's something called a dragon, and this is what it does. It's wicked, it tries to capture people and draw them away from God and all of that. For me, I can make sense. I can make sense of it because I understand and I've seen what evil is. And therefore, if the alternative is good, I have no hesitation whatsoever to choose the good because I know what evil can do.

unknown 12:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

I don't know whether that answer is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does. And that's the purpose of this uh podcast series to see uh, you know, the interpretation. And I would like to ask uh, you know, Reverend Tema, yeah, how would you interpret this concept?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

This concept of spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yes, yes, and also the imagery of the dragon.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Your story made me realize that that um in my context, um uh the people are oftentimes very much looking for nuance. Uh so it's it's it's not as as clear as as what you vividly explained, uh what good is and what evil is. Um most of the times we tend to look for it in in ourselves and and see it as a sort of maybe even a almost mixed category. Um good is is is always somewhat mixed with evil, and if evil happens, you you tend to search for but but what were there maybe some good intentions involved? Um so the the imagery of spiritual warfare um is is um it's kind of blurred, right? It's blurred, uh, and and I think I would find it maybe even quite difficult to address it in a sermon, for example. Um which which is has to do with my context. I realize this, or I try to realize this, uh, because the the the the whole of revelations, including this word warfare, um has has so much well that's uh violence in it. Uh this chapter, of course, also there's there there is a battle between Michael, the uh Saint Michael, the the angel, archangel, uh, with the dragon, and and um yeah, there's a woman being uh uh persecuted uh by so it's all um so I'm I I I'll probably sort of take the this sort of nuanced filter uh to try and find the the the hooks in our everyday life where we can relate to this word of warfare or struggle. I'll I'll probably uh sort of nuance it to words, okay. So warfare is maybe uh well it's it's closer now, of course, than than than ever. Let's be uh uh realistic, but um still from our everyday life it's it's quite removed. So um if I translate it to struggle to a personal struggle, it it becomes more sort of recognizable.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Okay, so it therefore means that biblical interpretation is based on context.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah, that is that is the reality. That's right. Yeah, of course, our various experiences are different from the European continent, Western civilization to African this thing. Um, but I just wonder does that make the effect or the impact of what we are dealing with severe or less? Because if for for him, um spiritual welfare is so mild, you know, yeah, even in evil you tell us to look for some good, and you know, but in African context, evil is evil.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah, that is the essence of this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Does it does the impact? Yeah, does it make a different impact on him? For example, like uh the guy whose uh story I told, uh, if somebody did that in this European context, he stole something and lied about it and invoke a curse. So are we saying that the curse would not land because he's living in Europe? I think probably the police will arrest him.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

If in this context he would be just like what you told, uh be struck by lightning, we would say, Oh, that's a coincidence. Uh so so it's it's it's it's quite interesting to compare the the the two um with with with the context in in mind as well, uh, because the whole uh what the community does surrounding this in incident, what happens, and and how they reflect on it, and how they uh sort of also take serious the the the the impact of evil or a curse, um uh there there there could be well it's it's it's interesting to have this this kind of interaction between these two contexts.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah, uh this actually uh makes me if we in the book of the Revelation chapter 12, you look at it carefully, you can see that indeed uh even from within the church, the church uh hierarchy, and church history and all that, the the preacher's interpretations are quite varied. Okay, quite varied. And uh so we don't have a common agreement, and I think it is consistent with scripture because scripture says uh for now we see darkly, and therefore we we prophesy in part, we see in part, therefore we profess in part. So it means that God had purposely made it this way that we don't have the full picture even. You understand what I'm saying? Okay, so now the Westerners have a certain perspective, the Africans and the Asians have also another perspective and interpretation of some of the stories. Okay? Uh-huh. But uh I guess there may be some common grounds all the same, because we all agree there is some evil in the dragon.

unknown 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Well, this is interesting, actually. I thought of my my youngest daughter. Um she she uh watches quite a few um animation movies, uh, and uh as it goes, uh we we also um have um uh uh stories about dragons, uh how to tame a dragon is one uh animation series, uh, three movies, and she's watched that. And and there are also movies concerning dragons that that relate to the more Asian context where the dragon is is not so much an evil of a power of evil, but even a power of good. Um so if I if I uh uh would um uh preach or even do a biblical study about revelations, and and we would encounter this dragon, uh I would have an uh exchange with her about okay, so here the dragon stands for force for evil, and uh and we have to uh translate it to what what does the which is what you say, of course, with the snake, what what for me uh makes me relate to to evil that's that's dangerous, that's terrifying. Uh, but I found that especially with the dragon quite interesting because in in European culture the dragon is the force of evil. We have uh how we say it, fairy tales, uh of um and and other stories uh that that that all have this dragon in this negative role. Um but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah I I now I'll like to ask both of you this question. Do you see the dragon from this text, Revelation 12, as a spiritual being or uh something that operates through the social, political, or the economic uh you know, systems of today? You made mention of something like that. How do you see it? Because we want to relate it. How do we relate the scriptures to our daily life? So I'd like to hear from you, Reverend.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah. Yeah, the dragon clearly, it of course is symbolic and it's representing the force or the influence of evil uh that is in our world today, uh uh trying to infiltrate everything, every aspect of society. Uh and I think that is what uh the scripture tries to help us to be aware of. Uh we may never see a physical dragon with all the you know paraphernalia and uh you know uh moving or moving, you know, like that, you know. But it is uh it is uh a symbolic reference to uh evil in all its forms, the way it's manifesting our world today, and how it's affecting, infiltrating uh politics, the economy, and society at large, affecting our culture, uh even trying to seduce our kids in in some ways. You see, so uh the dragos dragon is uh uh manifesting his traits and characteristics in all these ways technology, folklore, music, you know, and and all of that. But that's the dragon for you. Wow. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

But but but if you asked it because I have to answer the yeah, yeah, yeah. If I uh sort of can you elaborate on that? Uh uh is is is it a uh uh a spiritual being? Because I recognize very much what you say, it's it's a power of evil, it's it infiltrates. Um but in my context, if if if I translate it to uh a sort of person, personal uh like you said, a spiritual being, uh um uh a lot of of of of people in my context would would would uh uh would not relate to that they they will relate to how you represented it there's a there's something of a power of evil uh that infiltrates uh but if i uh they they they stop and uh add uh assigning sort of a personhood uh like there's a true person Satan uh active in this world or even like revelation uh presents it uh a fallen angel um uh yeah so i i was curious how how this is for yeah how for you um uh i didn't quite get the angle you're coming from how how would they relate to if i they were portrayed as an evil force that is uh really itself you know in in every uh structure of society yeah uh but in the western quota they would relate to that or they wouldn't they wouldn't no they would relate to that to that but they wouldn't relate to the representation of of this evil force being a person even being an angel uh originally uh being cast out of heaven fallen to earth like the whole sort of I would also say sort of the myth mythological representation uh and then taking the myth uh to be uh an actual sort of historical uh there uh my the people in my context and and uh and myself I think also would might be lost uh might be lost yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but but maybe for you it's the same so but I'm I'm I'm curious yeah no I I think uh we we Alice there there's a basic understanding that uh we are we are living in this world this is a material world a physical world but it has a a spiritual uh dimension we ourselves we are spiritual in a way where though we're living in a physical body I think it's important that we educate people bring them up to a level where they understand that they are not only flesh and blood but they are spirit beings yeah you see that's why uh when people pass okay people transition and all that I think that that education must be must be must be made must be brought to the fore people must be educated yeah otherwise then they miss they miss something big because the devil uh can deceive them I mean they if they they they forget the fact like for example somebody does wrong or has a habit of doing wrong things and no matter uh how much uh help like a criminal you can't stop him but then as a Christian you look beyond the behavioral misconduct of this person you begin to recognize a possible spiritual factor yeah you see but so when you are looking at things purely from a natural perspective you miss that part and that's why I think it's important to help people bring them up to realize that hey there are spiritual realities that we are dealing with in this world people must not overlook that I think I uh I under understand what you what you bring forward uh and and and also I think that that here uh there's there's there's quite a uh a difference in a sense because I uh I can think of of of uh multiple people in my congregation who would say well this whole spiritual dimension of of the world we we discovered that that this doesn't exist we only exist in the material world uh and and um and there there's of course a lot of uh theology also on on this sort of discussion between the but um uh so so it's it's quite also for me again an interesting point you bring forward that we need to educate ourselves uh as Christians and maybe uh between our sort of context again uh congregations um we could uh discover something um at the same time there's something I think maybe fascinating in this position of saying well there there isn't a spiritual world because then you also deny all the the the the the the power um this is basically also why such a curse doesn't work because uh people just don't believe in it wow wow interesting interesting yeah yeah because the curse then is is is nullified but wow interesting wow okay just to to wrap up I would like to ask both of you because still on the same text revelation 12 I think 11 you say believers overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the words of their testimony so what does this look like Reverend Femco in your own context briefly um so I I uh I thought of the the conversation we had before the whole recording started we talked about Easter and um how you told that you're doing a series now of um on on um the power of the cross I I think you said so uh the the the blood of the lamp um uh I think if we discuss the power of evil and maybe how it can manifest itself in our lives in a sense we can always it is there is danger in evil maybe even it can be terrifying but the blood of the lamb tells us it it has no ultimately it has no power over us. So there's an Easter tradition I'm sort of trying to think in which part of the Christian tradition it is but it is uh it is a tradition to tell a joke uh on Easter morning uh to tell a joke and laugh uh and laugh at death uh laugh uh not only at death but but everything that comes with it uh laugh in a sense at Satan the power of evil that claimed the uh the victory in in Jesus' death but actually went down so all this comes for me with this phrasing of the blood of the lamb uh that we can discuss evil whether we consider it a spiritual being or powers manifesting itself which is quite close to each other right uh but we can discuss the power of evil in a in a sense in a safe way because we know that in the end ultimately it has been conquered.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

All right and for yeah yes you know um blood is very significant because we are told blood scarries life as a matter of fact I've seen that blood is a natural substance but it also has uh spiritual properties so when the Bible tells us that blood is used to atone for sin uh and to obtain remission of sin, forgiveness and all that there is a spiritual dimension of blood that is being activated okay so uh it it makes sense to to to relate it to the scripture uh verse 11 of uh chapter 12 where it says we overcame we and they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the blood of the the testimony so uh blood is indeed uh very powerful uh very quickly within African context we know that blood sacrifice is real because it's you when somebody commits an offense you must use uh the blood of an animal to pacify so if I present a goat or chicken to my elder because I offended him uh the understanding is that I'm offering blood to to make up for my my my mistake for example so it's a very it's a very relevant and powerful uh you know symbol the blood to to cover offenses and to make peace with between God and man.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Wow wow thank you so very much for this wonderful conversation we've really learned a lot and I believe our viewers have also learned and listeners have learned a lot you know hearing from both of you and uh we discovered that the scripture is an interesting uh not just a literature book of life that unpacks certain realities so we'd like to bring this uh episode to an end until I come your way next time that Samuel is my name bye for now