🗣️“Shout it aloud, do not hold back” | Worship in Many Colors

What does it mean to shout aloud and sing for joy — especially when joy looks and sounds different across cultures?

In this episode of Faith Across Borders, Samuel explores Isaiah 12:6 together with pastor Shirene Augustine Straker and pastor Paulus Schellevis. From Curaçao and Surinamese church contexts to Dutch Reformed traditions and intercultural communities in the Netherlands, they reflect on how worship can be both deeply personal and beautifully diverse.

Together, they discuss the difference between joy and happiness, the tension between structure and spontaneity, and how churches can create space for expressive worship without losing order or focus. Is joyful worship about volume, movement and emotion? Or is it about something deeper?

At the heart of the conversation is one shared conviction: Jesus remains at the center. Whether worship is expressed through silence, organ music, raised hands, gospel songs, dancing, or singing in different languages — the joy begins with knowing who God is and experiencing his salvation.

A rich conversation about culture, faith, freedom, and learning from one another in the worldwide body of Christ.

In this episode:

•  Isaiah 12:6 and the call to shout for joy 
•  Worship in Dutch and migrant church contexts 
•  Joy as more than a feeling 
•  Creating space for different cultural expressions 
•  Balancing freedom, order and mission 
•  Why authentic worship can become a powerful witness 

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Faith Across Borders is a podcast by the Netherlands-Flanders Bible Society. In each episode, we explore how the Bible speaks across cultures, communities and lived experiences.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

The Bible has the same texts around the world, but it is not experienced the same way everywhere. Welcome to Faith Across Borders, a podcast by the Bible Society for the Netherlands and Flanders. I am Samuel. Today we are going to be looking at a very interesting topic, Shout for Joy, from Isaiah chapter 12, verses 6. And to address this topic, we have two guests that will introduce themselves before we dive into uh the subject matter. Please, could you introduce yourself, ma'am?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yes, sure. My name is uh Shirene Augustine Straker, and I'm a pastor, and I love to call myself a kingdom strategist. And together with my husband, I'm setting up the holy work ministries.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Good afternoon. My name is Paula Schelevis. I'm from Dordrecht. I'm happily married with Cora and have two uh two beautiful daughters. Um, and I'm pastor pioneer from a new church called ICF, and that's uh that's the name for International Christian Fellowship.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

And one of the things I realize uh about both of your profile is that you have experience with intercultural churches. You have background in Curusao and also with the Suriname church and and the likes. And you also have uh contact with migrants from Asia, Africa, and all the like. So I think it's a very interesting uh opportunity to hear from your experiences. And we also have uh this English devotional, one of our English devotional that talks about faith and culture, uh which I I I realize that you know some of our worship expression uh uh uh we cannot separate the culture from it. However, we're gonna read the Bible uh to see uh what the Bible talks about shouting for joy. I'll be reading from the uh international uh version, NIV, uh new international version, Isaiah chapter 12, verses 6. He says, shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion, for great is the holy word of Israel among you. I love this text, and we would like to unpack what does it mean uh to shout for joy in the presence of the Lord? Now, looking looking at uh your your background, the migrant background, there's this expression of being loud. However, in the traditional Dutch churches, sometimes the worship is very solemn. It's not about right or wrong, but we would like to hear what are your experiences.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Well, if I go back to the beginning for me in Curaçao, um I'm from a Catholic um family background, and there it was for me as a young girl very difficult to get into the habit of church. It was mainly um doing the rites and going to the process and the party afterwards. It was not about being uh in church or learning about God. And when I was invited to another church by a young guy in uh I met in school, I came into this whole new world, this apostolic church. It was so lively, it was like, oh, you can dance in church. It was so surprising for me. And move a few years later when I was in the Netherlands, I also got into a church that is very multicultural, but it's categorized as Dutch. But they created so much space for the people from Curaçao, the people from all different uh backgrounds that could really call it their home. So I I when I think of this and especially the how to bring more joyful worship into the service, it's really important for the different cultures to feel at home in it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Okay, well, thank you very much. Um, Pastor Paulos, I know you have uh background in the traditional Dutch church before you moved into pastoring uh a more intercultural uh community, church community. Uh, how would you address this topic, especially from your traditional uh Dutch context and swinging in to the more expressive way?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How would I address it? Well, I'm from uh a traditional background. I grew up uh in a reformed tradition, so that's uh uh mainly uh just like you said, it's more about structures and uh the liturgy, following the liturgy, uh and worship is part of it. So, but it it's it's done in a different way than I experience now in the migrant churches. So, for a long time, the reformed tradition was my standard. So that was my my worldview. This is how you do it singing by an organ, just keep sitting, keep quiet, and don't sing too loud. So that was my worldview, I think. Um, and over the last few years, uh changes that experience. I I saw the worldwide church, I experienced the the now, the verse, like you said, it shout out full of joy. Yes, I experienced that and it has uh it resonates in my heart. That's right. So for now, my longing is more the multicultural perspective. So giving a platform, not for my worship or my experiencing, but giving a platform to experience the worship from all the different country cultures, all the different backgrounds. In what kind of way it doesn't matter. Just do it for the Lord. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Because I realize that there are moments in our lives whereby you cannot just keep mute no matter where you come from. This joy erupts. How would you uh interpret what Isaiah is saying in this text? Now we want to go a little bit in depth into the Bible, you know, uh shouting and singing. Now realize that uh your your community, you have migrants that face this hardship and the scripture is telling them to shout for joy. I realize that joy and happiness are two different things. Yes. How would you address this? Apollos.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

So, first of all, I think when we only uh read first six, like like you uh explained, um it's like just a command, to be clear. It's a command to shout full of joy. It's not a question if you're a Christian and you're a follower, follower of Jesus, he's saying you must express your joy. So for this verse, it's not uh not a question if you have to do it. But I think also in the presence of people who are experiencing faith in my church, are a lot of people who are just are not a Christian yet or just experiencing and uh um are looking for it. Um how can you come to that point that you shout full of joy? And I think when you read the whole chapter, then you will understand that you in the end will shout full of joy. I think it's like a river you throw in um in the water. First of all, the the the stone hit hits the water, it gives a big plunge, and then it's like this. When you read this chapter, it starts with the saying of uh the writer that he's thankful because he's saved by God. After that, he gives a confession of God. God is my helper, he is my savior, he is my salvation. So he was really experiencing the salvation of the Lord, and afterwards, then he shout full of joy. So first he had to understand who the Lord is, and afterwards he experiencing the personal relationship with the Lord, and then he is shouting full of joy. So I think there's a connection between understanding the gospel and that shouting full of joy.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

I think the two parts are connected.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Shaline, how would you respond to that, especially within the migrant churches? When we shout for joy, it it appears that we are constituting nuisance within the community. Is that true?

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well, I think there is the two part of yes, you have a reason to shout. And what I experience more in the migrant churches is you have to shout and then the reason will come, right? Like the joy, if you only focus on um why we are shouting, then you miss the point that sometimes you need to shout just for the the feeling of joy to manifest. Because if it remains uh knowing, then it might um it might become very, how can you say it? Um, it's something that happens in your head, right? Like you understand, like I should be joyful, right? But it doesn't mean that when you shout, it comes out joyful, right? And what I experience in, especially in the situations where you are not feeling the joy, but the Lord tells you to shout. And when you shout, the joy will come because the Lord will give you that understanding in your heart, it will go from your head to your heart. And it reminds me of last Sunday. I I had a moment in the service uh in the during the praise that I really felt like I have to shout, and I was losing my voice. And then my husband said to me, Maybe you should save your voice, like don't you know, like keep it lower just to for your physical comfort? And I told him, No, I have to shout because I can't let rocks shout for me. So it was a conviction, and then when I shouted, I I experienced that joy.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

That's a very powerful experience. Is that for you the same? Especially from your reform background. Wow. That's a very powerful experience. Is that for you the same? Especially from your reform background.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, I yeah, I think from my reform background, it starts here. It's a kind of a tradition way. It's all about understanding, and I think it's more maybe an effect of the enlightenment as well. Uh rationalize all the things and think about it and don't uh express your emotions too public, right? So I think that that's an effect, but I think it's it's uh it can be hand in hand, like you said. So shouting, uh, even when you don't feel it, it can be a relief, but also giving the word of hope who God says, who God is, and with that word, then you can shout. So I think it's it's not uh either that way or this way, it's together and exactly, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

And that's exactly what this podcast is all about, you know, uh learning from uh both sides, and not just the Dutch church, not just the migrant church, but the body of Christ, you know, because it's we see the full expression of faith. Now, I'd like to ask both of you this question: how does joyful worship become a missional weakness uh in a secular Dutch society?

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Well, actually, last Sunday as well, I had a conversation, and the first thing that I wanted to know, because the person I spoke with, um a traditional church setting, but he has been asked many times to speak in a more well expressive church, if I can say it like that. And um, he said that every time that he went to those churches and then afterwards went back to his church, he noticed like the uh his hands were going a little bit higher, and and he was singing just a little bit louder, and he was moving just a little bit more. And I think in that sense, that is also what it happens, like it rubs off a little bit on each other. Um, and that helps the um the one to become more accepting of the other, but also when you're in a more expressive setting, in a more expressive church, and you see someone who's really in the moment experiencing it, it might also stop you. Like it's it's not a show, it's not about being all about the oh, who's screaming the loudest and who's dancing the best, right? That's right, it becomes more of a oh wait, it's it's about God. I'm ministering to God, right? And not a show for people. That's right. So I guess in that sense, it becomes a mutual um testimony of experiencing God.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yes, Paulus, how would you address this question?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I think it's a good question because we struggle with this exactly, because the reason that we are beginning with we are uh beginning with this church is just to reach out to people who are not used to go to church. So, and when it comes to worship, for us it's maybe normal, and we know how to express, and we do we raise our hands and we clap and we do all the things, but when you're new to church, you're looking what's happening here? So for us, it's it's a real struggle. Um, so I believe that worship can deliver a big contribution to the missional uh testimony. Um, I think the only disclaimer I would make is that it doesn't matter how how you express it. And yes, um I like I like the more expressive way, like you explain it. So my hips are getting looser and I clap more and I dance a little, you know. But I think that's not the the key for um for uh um uh missional witness. I think the key for the wall of worship is just purity.

unknown 15:18

Purity.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

That it that is it's real, and that that's what people are seeing. So during our services, multiple people will sing. Um and what we do is the worship leader is saying, Well, we will sing this song, um, and we put the song on the screen, and then we say, No, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm your worship leader, but I can only sing in Dutch and English. So both of you can sing in Farsi, both of you can sing in Tigrinha, both of you can sing in in Spanish, and then he waits, and then people come up, and they are not used to sing. They sing too loud, too slow. It doesn't matter. It's about all about purity. That's right. And then you see new people who are not used to singing, just standing there and singing for the first time. And that's his missional witness in the worship service.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Thank you very much. Uh, because we are an interconfessional organization, we want to reach out to uh, you know, different churches and also the generation we want to address the youth. Uh, you know. So the question now would be how do the younger generation in Dutch, traditional Dutch migrant churches experience joy different from the older generation? What could be the lessons they could learn, especially because they are young, they need hype in their music? You know what I'm talking about? So, what can they learn?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Well, it brings me back to the uh the church I was part of um in The Hague, and that was indeed the church where they really created space for all the different cultures to express their own um yeah, in their own languages, even. And we had a very big group that was from Curaçao, right? And the other islands as well, but we had one thing in common. We spoke Papiamento. That's right. And for that group, we used our language as a way to attract people. But then you had also in the church the the younger uh generation, and those had their own moment in the week, of course, but their service was completely different. Like they even like they were doing the hand-in-end moving from one side to the other through the building, right? And that was for them like they needed that. Without that, their experience of church would be not fitting to whatever happens in their life. And what we noticed was that moment became a moment to ask your friends to join. Asking them for church on Sunday might feel a bit a higher um threshold, right? But to go on a Friday night to a youth event and you're having the DJ and the food and you know, like the real experience for the youth, that was for them important. And because of that, the church was growing in that uh in the amount of youth that were joining, right? So I guess in that part, it's very important for them to fill a space for them with uh music that appeals to them.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

That's something relatable to this. Okay. And is that so for your where you were growing up from your traditional Dutch church, reformed church, and to now, do you see a difference? And what can you share?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, I think the the the biggest difference is that in the uh reformed tradition, there's more like a structure. So when you uh stay between the lines and everything is okay, but when you just do this, it's ah is it not that's not usual. So the the biggest difference we make is that we um create moments, let it happen, and we also do that for the youth as well. So is there someone who's playing piano and he you want to try it more and give him a space during the services or giving a space in the community to uh um um make his talent come up? And uh giving space, like you said, is I think the most important thing. So don't say you have to do it like us, but uh here's the room, here are the tools, use it for the glory of God, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I I want to push this question to you further, and both of you can help me address. You know, there are moments whereby there is this opportunity in the worship expression, and like you rightly said, if it goes out of the light, it's like but it's not uh on paper. How would you uh suggest that the the worship expression should go on even when the spirit is leading? Because I know for migrant churches we just flow whether it's on paper or not. So uh what's what could be the limiting factor? Is it because it is a set-down liturgy that must be strictly followed?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Please, let's hear okay. I think it's about finding a middle way. Yes, I think uh that's the key. Yes, because uh just start at one one moment and leave it uh for for an hour's going. That was not my suggestion, I think.

unknown 20:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Um so in our uh ICF in Dordrecht um we have a liturgy, so we have thought about uh the kind of a build-up. So, how do you build up the service? Um, and within that, there is space to give a podium for someone who has a testimony. Um, during our uh one of our last services, there was um one visitor, he's now in the Asylum Seeker Center for the first time in Dordrecht, so he was just two weeks in uh the Netherlands. He's from Nigeria, and before the service he said, I used to sing in my church in Nigeria. So I said, Okay, that's nice, maybe you can sing with us. Uh we have three songs, but he was not familiar with our song. So um I said, Okay, maybe next time. But we were singing, and I saw him sitting, and uh he thought, yeah, I want to be there as well. And it was he he was thinking about it. So I thought, okay, give him just a stage, and he was used to he could sing one song. He was used to sing. I said, Okay, take the stage and give him that space. So be flexible and at the same time take somehow the lead in it. Okay, yeah, balancing in in between, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

And and and for you, mom, how would you suggest migrant churches in general can uh be in between? Because sometimes the spontaneity can be too long, and sometimes uh you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, we just say, Oh, be led by the spirit, yeah. But uh we are talking about keeping some order, yeah, some order, that's the word. Yeah, so so how would you help our viewers to understand this as well?

SPEAKER_02 22:29

I agree that order is important because um especially thinking of someone new who comes to church, especially if you want to be a place like you uh you go out and you you evangelize, and someone who has no experience with church comes into the service, you don't want them to feel like oh, it's just complete chaos. That's right. Um, like whatever you want goes, and you know that in that sense, you want to keep it a space where uh free expression doesn't obstruct their growth, their um acceptance of Jesus, because in the end that's what you want to bring. And I'll be honest, if I look at the Bible thinking of Jesus, I would never see him rolling on the ground and being, you know, all um in that way, like that we can also mimic, yes, right? So, in that sense, yes, shout for joy, be expressive. If you feel like you have to be on your knees, be on your knees, but at the same time being mindful of the uh surroundings, like if if it's new for someone about speaking in tongues, that's also a way of expression, but also that um the Bible is very clear that if um you're speaking in tongues, there has to be someone who translates, and even if the translation is just taking a moment to say to a new person, this is what is happening, right? So, um, in that sense, um giving the space but being mindful of the people, and that I think already brings the order that we need in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Give it the space and being mindful. Wow, I like to conclude uh this episode, but just one key word for our viewers to uh reconsider, you know, experiencing this kind of uh worship expression that is not necessarily bad, it's not bad, it's something that we can you know uh learn from each other.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

So one key word you can share to our viewers, take home, then I would definitely say don't let the rocks worship Jesus for you. That's a good one, and if that means that your hands go a little bit higher or your voice goes a little bit um higher than you would normally do, then do that. But if it also takes people away from their experience with Jesus, then so let's just put Jesus in the middle. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yes, Paulus.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah, for me it's uh I think the same and I come back to the example of the stone in the water with all the the wrinkles. Um well, I start in the middle, and you find out different expressions of joy. It's like the stone, whether it's a organ or it's a gospel choir, it doesn't matter. So Jesus a savior in the middle, and then you find out different out different expressions as an outcome. But Jesus Christ in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, Jesus in the middle. Don't let stone replace you. Viewers, we have resources that could enrich your devotional life. We had we have faith and culture, we also have hope for every season and living the word. And uh the link will be below this uh uh you know series. And we also have uh uh migration bibles, we have the uh uh the tronomical uh edition uh for the Roman Catholic uh you know tradition, and this is the regular uh edition, uh and you can get uh and place your order below. So today I like to uh bring this uh podcast to an end. Samolu is my name. Till we meet next time. Bye for now.