Can Relationships Get Better with Age? | Ep 02

Can relationships actually get better as we get older? Dr. Barry Jacobs and Dr. Julia Mayer have a well-earned opinion. They're both clinical psychologists, they've been married almost 36 years, and they've now co-authored five books together, including AARP Love and Meaning After 50: The 10 Challenges to Great Relationships and How to Overcome Them.

In this conversation with host Andrea Nunez, they get into the challenges that reliably show up after 50, from the empty nest to retirement to shifting health, and why so many of them come down to conversations couples avoid having. They also make a serious case that social isolation is a health issue, not just a sad one, and offer genuinely practical advice for building new friendships later in life.

Along the way: the 20-second hug, the gratitude journal, why introverts do fine at a senior center, why men often have a harder time after leaving work, and what happens when you just show up to the knitting club without knowing how to knit.

Age Against the Machine challenges the narrative of getting older through honest conversations with members, community voices, and local experts.

Learn more about Barry and Julia's work at caregiveranswerbook.com

0:00   Welcome to Age Against the Machine
1:25   Meet Joan: a line dancing class that became so much more
3:03   Meet Steve: finding company after loss
5:28   Meet Eileen: an artist who wandered in and stayed
7:54   What does "acting your age" even mean?
10:53  "Do you act your age?" Three honest answers
13:10  Steve's bike and the freedom it gave a kid from North Philly
16:06  "Motion is lotion": what keeps them moving
17:42  Joan's lifetime of sport, and building family wherever she landed
20:58  Learning new things to keep the brain young
23:04  Eileen: from competitive swimming to ballroom to the Flower Show
24:16  Why staying active is really about staying connected
25:23  "Have you ever heard of an artist who retired?"
26:51  Their advice: don't stop in the middle of your life
27:47  Staying motivated on the hard days
30:36  Should age define what we can and can't do?
32:42  "I'm my own CEO now"
33:28  Disrupting the narrative: you're writing the book
35:00  Come join us

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to Age Against the Machine, a podcast about challenging the narrative of getting older. This is where we question outdated ideas about aging and have honest conversations about how people are really living today. We talk about relationships, reinvention, health, purpose, technology, identity, starting over, and so much more. Each episode, I sit down with members, community voices, and local experts, sharing real experiences, fresh perspectives, and the things nobody talks about enough when it comes to getting older. I'm your host, Andrea. Let's get started. Today we are joined here by Dr. Barry Jacobs and Dr. Julia Meyer. They're a married couple and we're going to talk about uh their book that they co-authored, ARP Love and Meaning After 50, the 10 Challenges to Great Relationships, and how to overcome them. Thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Of course. We are going to talk today about how relationships evolve over time. Couples and also relationships other than couples, you know, family members, friendships, um, how to build deeper, more meaningful connections as we age. And we'll talk a little bit about can relationships get better with age. So to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and the work you two have done together?

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I am a psychologist. I've been in practice for several decades. Um, mostly I have worked with individuals, and over time uh many of them have become caregivers and um have gone through empty nest and have had financial changes, or they've retired because I've worked with them for so long. They've been through all these life changes. And so um, we when we wrote this book, we became very interested in um helping people get through this transition. So that's when we wrote Love and Meaning after 50.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Uh, like Julie, I'm also a clinical psychologist. Uh I happen to be, in addition, a family therapist. Uh, and I have been working with older adults in specializing in working with older adults for most of my career. And that has included helping them deal with their marital relationships, with their uh relationships with their adult children, relationships with with um other people in their lives. And so focusing on relationships has been a little a big part of both of the of the work that we do.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

So, what was it like writing this book together?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

I think we do really well writing together. You know, we divide up tasks, we edit each other, and um, this is one of three books that we've written together. So it obviously works for us, and it's been a really nice project um to write together. It's been great.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, I would I think it's it's actually enhanced our marriage over time. Um I think it's given us, you know, things to get excited about and not not just the writing, but the book promoting the book afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah. Well, and I was gonna mention that too. You know, it's gotta be uh different because you are married. How long have you two been married? Almost 36 years. 36 years. So writing a book about relationships and you're in one for the past 36 years. I mean, that's that's a different perspective that you know I think adds to the adds to the book. Would you do you feel that way? Do you feel like you were able to use some of the things that you two have learned in your relationship but other relationships and put it into put it into the book?

SPEAKER_03 3:34

No question about it. Um as a matter of fact, the first book that we wrote together um appeared as an opportunity to us right after we became empty nesters when our kids left for college. And so um we were experiencing the empty nest as we were writing about it and um you know experiencing changes in our relationship and and um also we were caregivers, which is also in the book. So, yes, we've we've gone through a lot of it, our friends have gone through a lot of it. It's definitely informed the book.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

So you talk about, you know, empty nesters and all those different, you know, the 10 challenges, right? Um, can you share what some of those other challenges are and which do you think is the most common that you see for couples over the age of 50?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Um, we always see uh things like empty nest, um, issues with extended family can get complicated, um, especially if there's a blended family. Some people are going to college, some people um are living at home, and uh it's it's um it can make the relationships complicated. There can be changes in finance if somebody's getting ready to retire, and they need to understand what their finances will look like and how to manage them. And um there are many other things. There's issues sometimes of infidelity, um retirement uh concerns about like where to retire, issues of downsizing, all kinds of things, um changes in health. And all of these, as we talk about in the book, um have to get talked about. And a lot of couples, by the time they are married for decades, don't always talk things through very well. So the book is really to give them a guide for how to have some difficult conversations.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, just just to pick up and underscore something that Julia said, uh when as people's health change, as their functional status change, and uh they necessarily have to become more dependent on others, that changes their relationships with other people. That could be become more dependent on a spouse, that more dependent on their neighbors, more dependent on on um on adult children. Um that that's not always easy to have greater reliance on other people when when you've been used to being very, very self-reliant. Uh and so that that those are the kinds of transitions that we talk to to lots of folks about, how to make them as graciously as possible.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Well, and to add to that, Barry, you um, you know, you you can talk about this at when you and your your significant other or partner are the age of 60, and then something happens, right? Whether it's to you or that other person and or a family member or whatever, and now you're, you know, it the answers you may have talked about before might be different. So it's always evolving, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

I mean, I think um, if we're talking about particularly uh some long-term romantic relationship, marriage or partnership over many years, the relationship always requires ongoing communication, ongoing growth. Um, you can't ever take it for granted. There's always life changes. Uh, people enter different phases of life, they have other circumstances change. And so all those changes have to be processed. And hopefully the couple couple weather any adversity together rather than having adversity pull them apart.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Any of these challenges, can they be applied to friendships or other relationships, family members, um, whether it's brother, sister, children, even? Um, and if so, can any of these challenges show up more so in friendships than they do romantic relationships?

SPEAKER_03 7:21

I don't know. I mean, this book is is written for romantic relationships, but certainly when you feel close to a person, a a friend, it's important to keep communicating. You know, sort of I I don't know if the individual challenges are as important as what's underlying them. And what's underlying them is the open communication, empathy, good listening. People often are not as good listeners as they think they are. And um so practicing really listening when you're talking to a friend and and and trying to remember what they said so you can ask them specifically about it when you see them again. You know, I think the best way to maintain friendships is by putting energy and effort into, just like in a marriage, but the energy is um making sure that you that you listen and that you care and that um you share things with them in a kind of vulnerable way and that they do the same with you.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Do you think that some of the principles that people use or can take from the book to strengthen a marriage can also strengthen those friendships?

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Understanding that the other person is going through things. You know, for example, in our world, um a lot of friends have um family members who aren't well. It could be a parent, it could also be a spouse who has gone through um a very bad illness or dementia, or, you know, and and the friend is taking care of them. And um, it's important to know what their circumstances are, to ask them about it, and to be understanding. Are they not as available as they used to be because they're managing their husband's dementia? Yes. Maybe they're not as available. And maybe they don't want to ask you to help them, but maybe as their friend, you do something for them anyway. You bring over a dinner or you offer to stay with the husband so your friend can go out and have an hour to herself. You know, you so you you think about the other person's circumstances. Um, and as a good friend, you you try to be a support to them given whatever they're dealing with.

unknown 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah. I mean, just as a general point, uh, in this book, we're really trying to help people strengthen their relationships. And I think that's true not just of their uh couple's relationship, but of all relationships. And uh because we unfortunately see many older adults in particular becoming more isolated as as they age. And we know from research that social isolation has been uh associated with both uh mental health and physical health uh negative consequences that um really that not not only do they detract from the quality of life, but they could actually really cause life to cease sooner than it would otherwise. And so we want people to have stronger relationships. We want them to have a sense of community and the same skills for strengthening a romantic relationship to in large part, and that is the ability to be you know, to communicate, the ability to empathize, the ability to to just be patient and and and compassionate, all those things are are necessary with friendships as well.

unknown 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

And extended family, as you mentioned. So um, you know, we feel pretty strongly that as we age, it's really important to have a relationship with our children or nieces and nephews, whatever you happen to have, and be clear about what you want going forward. Do you want to live on your own? Do you want support? Are you financially stable? Um, and share with your children or um whatever younger people you're close to some of these important issues. What kind of measures do you want gone to if you have a major health problem? Talking to people about that stuff is really hard to do. I think a lot of people put it off. It's scary and they don't want to burden people, but it actually helps adult children know how to be a good support, how to be a good family member to you if you're willing to talk about those things.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah. Do you think it it do you think that's the number one reason why people don't talk about those things with their kids or their spouse or another loved one? It's it's scary.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Um, I do. I think there's also maybe a little bit of maybe, I don't know, magical thinking that if you talk about the scary thing, it'll happen. So let's put let's just, you know, not talk about it. But I think a lot of adult kids f feel reticent about bringing it up because they don't want to upset their parents and the parents don't want to burden their kids. But it really is a relief to have these kinds of conversations so that people um know, you know, what the lay of the land is. They know what the future potential possibilities are um and how they can fund them. And um, and and people know better how to be uh support to each other if they talk these things through. But it yes, it's very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, yeah. And it's okay for um, you know, that parent to bring it up, but also maybe for the child to the adult children, niece, nephew, whatever it may be, to also bring it up and and you know, open the open the doors to the conversation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

We we tell um caregivers, often adult children of their parents, bring it up. And if the parent shoes you away or says, I'm not talking about that now, wait a little while, bring it up again. Tell them that it's because you want to do right by them, you want to be a support, you need to know how because you can't read their minds. You know, just you persist in a in a nice, supportive, respectful way.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, well, so Barry, you briefly were talking about the um, you know, one some of the same tools that you use in the book are can relate to friendships and family relationships. And why is that so important for our overall well-being as we age to have those connections, those uh whether it's a relationship with the with a spouse or a family member or the somebody here at the senior center, um, why is it so important to have those relationships as we age?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Well, I think um for starters, we need to think about what naturally happens with some of our primary relationships as as we age. I mean, unfortunately, people we know, people we love, uh die, uh they move away, or they become um, they become you know just overwhelmed by their own illness and and their own challenges, and they become less available to us. And as a as a as a consequence of all that, there's a kind of narrowing of our communities and and so as a result, if we don't want to become more socially isolated, uh we need to really widen, uh widen our our our base. I mean, just make new friends, uh develop stronger relationships with the people maybe we we've always known but but haven't really connected with as deeply as we might now. Um, I also do believe that as people uh get older and they have more leisure time, for instance, they're less focused on work, uh they really uh are looking towards or towards the social relationships. Um they don't want more time necessarily just to watch more TV. That's not what people do when they stop working. They they want to do other things. Um and hopefully they do those other things in the company of of people they like, people they care about, and who like and care about them. And that that I think is a is a recipe for uh greater well-being as people age.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

I would add that it's also important, everything you said, I agree with Barry. In addition, um finding meaning is really important, having meaning in your life. So if you've had a career and you've now stepped away from your career, you've raised children and now they're independent, um, you can feel in that transition like, what's my worth? You know, what am I, what am I doing here? And it's with other people doing activities that are fun and meaningful, um, finding ways to create meaning in your life is really important because without that, um, I think there's a greater risk, not only of isolation, but maybe of depression. So um, yeah, I wouldn't underestimate how important it is to feel loved, valued, to feel that you make a contribution and that your life has meaning.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, and I mean we see it here all the time at at the at the senior center where people are coming in, they they maybe just join for the first time because they, you know, just moved here, so they're new to the area or they've retired or they have a loss in the family, whether it's a spouse or whatever it may be. And uh it's interesting because they they they come here and they're very interested in in programming, but also they always want to know if if everybody else here is friendly, right? Like if you can talk to the, you know, so you know they want that social connection. Um, and then of course they make more friends by the programs that we do here. So they enjoy quilting while they go to the quilting group, or they enjoy exercise, they go to the exercise group and then have lunch together. So um, you know, we see that here at at the senior center all the time. Um what so what advice would you give to someone on how to build a new friendship later in life? At any point, you know, that's good advice to have, but especially later in life when especially if you're not working, right? You don't have those co-workers that you're with every day. Um how what what advice would you would you give to somebody?

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Well, it does help to be at a place like the Wayne Senior Center, which is where I would go if I needed to go to one. It's so great there. Um I I it it helps because there's programming built in, and the easiest way to talk to other people is while you're doing something, you know, being task-oriented, but you're all doing the same thing together. So that makes it much easier. If you're a little bit shy or awkward, you can talk about the the sewing or the knitting or the exercise class or whatever. You can talk about what you're doing. Um, but in addition, what a way to make friends is you you ask questions about them, you learn about who they are, show curiosity, show interest. I mean, don't overwhelm them with you know the third degree, but ask them, you know, what are they like at the senior center? What else do they do? Who's in their family? How long have they been there? And be sure to listen to the answers so that you really get to know the person you're talking to. And um showing interest in another person is always a big win because people love to be um paid attention to. And and hopefully that person would do the same in return. And therefore, you'd both learn about each other, and I'm sure you'd find things that you have in common. And repeated exposure really helps too. And that's another nice thing about the senior center. If you go every week or you go a few times a week, you're gonna see the same people, and you're gonna have you know updated conversations. Oh, how is your son doing? Or if someone had surgery, how'd that go? You know, it starts to become very comfortable. But I would say that if you're new, it takes a while before you feel like you're part of a group, like you, like you belong. And you have to be patient, even though it might be kind of uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. Just to pick up on something that Julie said, and it two things. One one is so the structure and the activities of the senior center help um everyone to get a little bit more comfortable with just interacting with one another. And this is especially true for for the those of us who are introverted. Not everyone is extroverted. Many people go through life fairly shy. Um, and so the the repetition of seeing people in the same groups again and again makes a huge difference. And so what starts off is just maybe two people talking about the the group and nothing more eventually grows over time to talking about their families or talking about the lives that they've had or talking about what they're have what they're or make for dinner for that night, or and maybe then they they reach a point, and this could be six months to a year later, where they start talking about, well, let's get together outside of the senior center, and and then those those move from acquaintanceships to friendships. That's the the other thing I'm and and to for folks to go to the senior center with that slow development of relationships in mind in the hopes that they can within that context, they can grow deeper relationships, I I think is is a good thing. The second thing I'm just gonna say is that um I think men, uh maybe traditional males, and I'm gonna maybe count myself among them, men have always relied more on their their work environment for their social nurturance. And then when they leave the workplace, they are often bereft of a lot of the social relationship that they just they just were were accustomed to having. And so they have to make a real intentional effort to say, like, I'm not gonna just be a guy, like, wait, hang around the, you know, hang around the water cooler to talk with people if there's no longer a water cooler to hang around. And so the, you know, guys have to really make more of an effort to to to develop relationships and allow themselves to actually express to other people, hey, uh, you know, you seem like a good good person. I'd like to spend more time with you. And how can we we do that in a way that feels comfortable for both of us?

SPEAKER_03 21:14

One little um additional possibility to make it more comfortable is um asking for advice or suggestions. When you ask a question, it's not a bad opening. You know, it's hard to jump in and say, well, how's your who's in your family? Um, but it's not that hard to jump in and say, So um, do you like this uh exercise class? Is it worth it to go every week or do you go more frequently? Find some questions where the other person might be able to help you. Yeah, no, that's great advice.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, and I maybe the take home point here is you gotta try, you gotta make effort. Maybe maybe you didn't even think twice about it in the past. It either just happened or didn't happen, but you sort of went along. But now I think it's more important that every you may have more leisure time, you may have Um, just fewer family members in your life because people have scattered or people have no, you know, they're just no longer as much family. So you really got to make the effort. And in a place like the Wayne Senior Center, there there are the forums to meet people and to talk and to develop those relationships. And you should, you should be there and you should work at it and and see where it goes. Um, I'll just say one other thing, and this is something that Julie and I talk, you know, joke around about. And that uh, I mean, I I belong to a men's group that is I'm the youngest guy in the group, and I'm not a young guy, right? So they're all older than me. Uh, but they uh we do a lot of what's called organ recital. You know, we talk about our our different medical ailments, um, you know, talk about our different or medical, you know, our bodily organs. And um that that you know, it's not hopefully the conversation just doesn't just focus on on what ails us. We talk about what we're enjoying or what's meaningful to us, but it it's uh it's often a good starting place. Like, hey, you saw the doctor, what did he say? You know, or you know, my knees have been killing me this week for the weather, because of the weather. How about yours? You know, that's uh we we could start off there, uh as and then maybe jump use that as a jumping off point to talking about more important things.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

So after all your research and experience, what's one thing about relationships that people often get wrong?

SPEAKER_03 23:18

I think they they many people believe that it should be easy all the time. So if it's a good relationship, particularly marital, it you know, we should just never have a problem, ever. Um and if we have a problem, maybe it's not a good relationship. Uh it it doesn't work like that. It works where uh everybody has to make an effort and you go through tough times and you learn more about how each of you copes, and you learn about all of our human flaws, your own and the other person. And this is certainly true in friendships too. Everybody has limits, everybody has imperfections. That's what it means to be human. So um it takes effort and forgiveness and um just sort of a spaciousness, you know, taking perspective and understanding that someone was grumpy, but that doesn't mean they don't like me, they're having a hard day. It it just takes um effort, mindfully exposed, you know, effort that you really think about, like Barry was saying, you go in with a plan. And this is true in marriages and any other kind of intimate relationship as well as friendships and uh with other family members. You try to be present and you try to think about the value of the person and the gratitude that you have to know them, and even if they have uh difficult moments or say something that you don't like or whatever, you know, you try to believe that they're a good person, of course, and you're gonna work it out. And but it takes effort, it's not effortless.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, and I I would just say that um human beings are very, you know, what makes human beings the uh successful species on our planet is we we have all powers of discernment. We we make distinctions among things and we decide what's a threat and what's not a threat, and we decide what we like and what we don't like. We often are very keen on on observing what we don't like about other people, for instance, or what we think uh they ought to change, or what we think uh doesn't suit us. And this is not this is not a time of life where you build relationships by finding finding out figuring out what's wrong with other people, what you don't like about them. This is to you know, to the contrary, finding out what you like about them, finding out what you you could connect. And the the other phrase that comes up I hear constantly nowadays is we we have to give grace to other people. We have to give grace to ourselves because as Julie said, you know, we're all human, but none of us are perfect. We don't always say or even or do the right thing, we don't wear the right clothes, we don't have the right interests always in other people's minds, but we just we we find ways of connecting anyway, even if it even if it's around you know what what you made for Pollock's supper or or or organ recital or what's wrong with with different parts of your body, you find you find ways you know of of of connecting because that's that's what helps us all uh be uh healthier emotionally and physically.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

And happier.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

And happier.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, absolutely. Do you find um you know we probably could have talked about this in one of the other questions, but finding that connection now in such a digital age, um, do you find that that is helpful? Do you find that you know using technology to find friendships and connect with people has it has it you know made it more difficult? Um Do you have experience with with this?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

That's a that's a big yes and no. Because there's plenty online that can be helpful. You know, Facebook has allowed people to see their, you know, their adult children's, you know, that see their grandchildren or their nieces' children or, you know, family members that are extended, they or old friends. I mean, I've had people from high school reach out on Facebook that I wouldn't have been in touch with. There's plenty of good. And um we often say, like, if someone's a caregiver and they can't really leave their loved one, they can go on to AARP's website and look at all the caregiving stuff that they can join an online caregiving group and complain away on the group and then you know, feel good for their loved one. Um, so there's plenty that is good about um online and uh you know, that kind of um connecting. But that doesn't mean that we don't need to connect in person. We absolutely do. It's almost like it's two different things. You know, when you meet in person with somebody, generally you feel much closer. It's a you know, I know during COVID people were you know meeting each other over Zoom and doing their best to stay connected, but then when people saw each other in person again, they were often crying, they were so happy. So, you know, it they're both valuable. Certainly in person is is probably more valuable um to make us feel good. You know, you can't hug somebody over Zoom, it just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

No. Are there any small daily habits that help keep relationships healthy and meaningful?

SPEAKER_03 28:28

There are many. Um are we talking about marital or anything? Anything, yeah, yeah. So for for intimate relationships, um I don't remember the details of this. Maybe you do, Barry, but there was some research about how it really helps for people to look at each other in the eye. Um, and it really helps to hug, like we were just talking about, preferably for kind of a long hug, like 20 seconds. Um, and uh that can make people feel close, it's not even verbal. Wow. But certainly it helps to ask each other how you're doing. Um, you know, remember that everybody has their ups and downs, and um, you know, just showing interest again, it's it's um it can take a minute, it doesn't have to be all day. And and certainly with friends too. Um this is another one. Um it's really nice to say to a friend, whether it's you know, as you're walking away, like you're saying, okay, I'll see you another time, to say, you know, I'm really glad you're my friend. To just kind of comment on the relationship in a nice way. It was great hanging out with you. And even if you don't say it, you can go home and text it to them. Right, right. There's that digital, digital part of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Right. I I just add um to what Julie said by, you know, so I think when we deb when we if we're living with somebody and we debrief with them at the end of the day, how is your day? How is your day? I mean, those sometimes very mundane uh pieces of information that we exchange with one another don't sound like much, but that what they do is it they just build certain familiarity with one another and one another's lives. And that becomes a basis for a stronger relationship, stronger, you know, mutual understanding. And so it's it doesn't, I mean, the hugging is great, but sometimes it just takes like, hey, what'd you do today? Um and uh that it I mean, it's it's it's the more we just share of ourselves, uh, the better. And um, so I I mean I just just something as simple as is hey, how are you doing? Um the other thing I'm just gonna say is that you know there's a lot of research about the use of gratitude journals in general, uh, where at the end of a day someone writes down three things that they're grateful for that happened that day. And uh so there's a lot of research that suggests that the that practice, if you if you do that practice, that it will help you with your emotional well-being uh at any point in life, but also especially as you're getting older. And I think if if if you can gear some of that gratitude journal to what were you grateful for in your interactions with other people that day, in your relationships that day, I I think it again, it'll help you savor those relationships better and um see see the positive that you want to nurture more, that you want to be with this person more because of uh some of the positive interactions you've had with them uh up to this point.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Focusing on you two through writing these books and through um you know working together, what are some what's something that you have learned about each other through these experiences?

SPEAKER_00 31:48

I don't know. We knew each other pretty well before we started writing them. I mean, we were married a long time before it started writing.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Yeah. I I learned that I write much faster than Barry, but he probably writes better than me.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Well, I I won't go with the latter, but certainly you the former is true. You write much faster than I do, then I'm always feeling pressure to catch up. So maybe that's a good thing. And yeah, and Julia tends to be better about deadlines, and I'm always lagging behind.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So um I I mean what with a the part of of of our writing together, which um I I think I've taken the lead on, is is not so much the writing, but the promotion of the book afterwards. So um I'm I'm much better at kind of pushing us out there and uh having conversation, having uh setting up speaking engagements and podcast episodes so that we can just share what we've done and uh kind of you know be, you know, take a take a victory lap, let people pat us on the back for what we've done. So uh and then we wind up, you know, Julie and I over over the years, the three books we've written, we've had the opportunity to go places uh to do speaking engagements. Uh we've attended Virginia last week. We we were, you know, we've been to uh Texas and California and many other places to give speaking engagements. And and then in the past, we went to Japan to do uh wow a series of talks. Uh so um so those, you know, it's it's it's enhanced our relationship, it's enhanced our lives that we we we have these uh adventures uh through through the you know the avenue of writing and promoting books.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Absolutely. Yeah. Go ahead, Julia. It has, and I would say that it's been a kind of growth experience for me because I am kind of introverted. Um, you might not realize that talking to me, but um since we started presenting, I really um I've gotten much more comfortable with it. I really am very comfortable with it now. Initially, I was sort of self-conscious or not sure I had anything of value to say, or if I would say it right. But um so practice helps, you know, like just to get back to the original topic of um connecting with people, if you're uncomfortable or you don't want to bother them, or you think, you know, they don't really want to hear from me, think again because you're not bothering people. People like to engage, they like to know someone's thinking about them. And I learned with all these presentations we've done and all the podcasts we've done, people want to hear. I mean, they don't want to be bored, but they they want to hear some interesting ideas, they want to give some thought to things. Um, so it's gotten more comfortable in terms of my confidence doing it. And I think that applies to connecting with people in any way, not just by giving presentations.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you you mentioned, Barry, that the two of you kind of uh each take on tasks that you're stronger with, right? And I think that can be applied to anybody. So for those of us that aren't writing books and traveling and giving presentations, you know, things that are happening at home or you know, the financial responsibilities or whatever it may be, whoever's, you know, whatever you're better at, whatever you are more comfortable with, splitting those tasks and you know, getting them done.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Absolutely. And and it requires conversation.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Um, you know, you could sort of fall into doing particular tasks. You know, one person hates doing laundry, the other person loves doing dishes. I I don't know. So which is great. Um, and one person's great with finances, another isn't. That all takes some conversation because if you don't talk about it, even if it w looks like it's working, you don't know that there isn't resentment or somebody feels like, well, he never does the laundry or whatever. It's way better in every situation to talk it through. It just takes time and effort. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah. So what do you think? Do you think relationships in general can become more meaningful as we age?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I mean, I think that can be. Um, I think again, as we've said a number of times it it before, it it's you have to be intentional about it and it takes effort and you have to turn toward people rather than you know maybe turn turn away from them or or have them drift away from you. You have to you have to really uh make the effort because otherwise as you age, your social networks will just uh become smaller as a as a matter of course. And and I I also will say that um the trends are not are not encouraging. The trends are towards more social isolation. It all the more reason why places like the Wayne Senior Center uh should be vital in in people's lives to have a place where um much of the focus is just on being with other people and being with other people who maybe are similar in age as you and maybe have have similar interests and perhaps not don't have similar interests, but are just there because they too want to connect in some way. And um that it just is all the more important. I I worry far less about the people who go to the Wayne Senior Center than all the people um in in our communities who don't go, who who sit home, who you know putter around the house, but never never really leave the house because they feel so awkward. They feel, they just feel unfortunately too shy. They'll they'll go to a place where they won't know anyone and it'll make them feel so self-conscious that they'll just slink away rather than hang in there and and give it a chance and let let relationships develop over time.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yeah, try to have some confidence that you're likable and that people would be happy to get to know you. It just takes time. Yeah. I I agree very. Um, it worries me that people it's like they feel so badly about themselves, they don't think they would be successful at a place like Wayne Senior Center, which of course they would be.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

So this podcast is all about um disrupting the narrative of getting older, and we're challenging the assumptions of of aging. So we we're asking all of our guests this final question how are you disrupting the narrative of getting older?

SPEAKER_00 38:06

That's a big one, Andrew. Um well, um I I mean I do think the idea that um we don't necessarily have to wind up becoming more isolated, which certainly is one of the prevailing narratives about older adults now. They wind up holed up in their apartments or houses with with too little connection with other people. I mean, what we're really saying today is that that's that's the the exact opposite of what should occur, what should occur is is older adults should use the available time that they have, more more time than they had earlier in their lives, to turn toward others, to connect with others, to develop new interests with others, to learn from others, uh, because that's that's really what buoys all of us up and and helps us get through adversity. You know, it's those, it's our communities that bring, you know, that whether it be through a senior center or whether it be through some uh religious congregation or whether it be from you know some other type of club, it's it's it's those social relations that that bring over the casseroles, that come visit us if we wind up in the hospital, that come you know, mow our lawn if if if we've you know fallen and broken a hip. I mean, people we we need people in our lives. And so that's that's what we're that's that would be the way I say we're we'd like to disrupt the the narrative uh that that exists out there about getting older.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

I would sort of piggyback on that. That do something new. Maybe you never did knit before and there's a knitting club. Okay, I'm gonna join it. I don't know how to knit. I'm not gonna pretend I know how to knit. I'm just gonna show up and see what I can learn. And learning is often, you know, when you're not sitting in school and there's no pressure on you, learning can be joyful. And especially if it leads to connection. So think of something that interests you and then try it. You want to learn a new language? You can start that at any time. You can do it online with a group, or you can find a place where you know they meet in person or join a book group at your library. Do something that you haven't done. It's risky, it could be scary. Just put yourself out there and try it. And you'll see a lot of times it leads to growth and and more happiness.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, and everybody's learning together. So you're all starting from zero and you're all going on it on this adventure together. So yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

And to that point, Andrea, I don't really think it it matters whether you become a world-class knitter or not. I think what what matters is you're sitting there knitting and you meet other people who are also interested and some of whom are more advanced in knitting, who can show you the ropes, show you the knitting, the yarn, I guess, is not showing you the ropes. But but you you you learn from them, you develop relationships with them. Knitting becomes the the the uh the vehicle by which you you connect with them.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, yeah, and you're enjoying it along the way. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you both so much, Barry and Julia. Is there anything? Um, you know, where can our listeners find you guys? Where can they uh find your books? Um any any additional information you'd like our listeners to to know about you two?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Uh so we have a website uh that's based on our most recent book, www.caregiveranswerbook.com. It has uh information about all three of our uh actually five five of our books. Um uh so including the the one that we're talking about today, uh ARP Love and Meaning uh After 50. Um and it also provides information about how to contact us if if folks are interested in contact contacting us as a portal there. You you just click a link and you can email us. So always happy to to interact with people who have uh interest in talking further about these topics with us.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Thank you. Thank you both so much for taking the time out of your day to speak with us. Uh really enjoyed this conversation, and we'll talk again soon. Oh, thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, thank you, Andrea.