2 Grace

Grace tells us about the importance of listening and watching the people in our rooms so we can respond well to them as individual humans. While she talks about content levels, it is being seen and cared for that made the difference. She describes gentle communication and 'nudges', suggesting that some of these communications skills as well as some more general financial and political life skills could be taught in secondary schools.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

So, as a student sitting in that seat, if he hadn't have come over and asked me a direct question, no way he would have known that I'd done it before. No way he would have known that I wasn't engaging because I was.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

So you would have just stayed not engaging and stayed that little small, timid student. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Exactly. That's why, that's why that confidence, that being seen is so powerful. And for that teacher to make such a quick assessment, and it's I mean, it might sound like such an easy question to ask, but it's so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

We spend 13 years at school. Is it well spent? This podcast offers a platform to school leavers to tell us about how their 13 years at school has or has not prepared them for life. Guy Claxton wonders if young adults would say it is 13 years well spent. My hope is that this might reach the ears of all of us involved with a school-based education. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. Was it 13 years well spent for you? Simply email 13 years well spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we start, some acknowledgements. I acknowledge the Ganai Kernai and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary Wakeling, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least also to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us to understand and consider how these stories might mediate your thinking about school-based education. If you are listening today, then I am celebrating because that might mean that you listened to the first episode and liked it enough to join us in a second. And hopefully many more to come. Welcome to, if this is the first time you are listening, this is 13 years well spent, and my name is Susan Taylor. Our guest today is Grace. Grace went to primary school in two government schools in regional Victoria for PrEP and year one, then a government primary school in Melbourne. For secondary school, Grace went to a government school in Melbourne for year seven, then a government school in regional Victoria where she did year nine, skipping year eight. In year 10, she went to a government select entry school in Melbourne, returning to the government school in Regal Victoria for years 11 and 12. Grace is now 29. There is a little background noise in the first few minutes of this recording. My aim is to be real in this podcast rather than perfect. Life happens and can be heard. So, Grace, overall, do you think 13 years in school-based education were well spent?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I think they were.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

And then what became after? And then after.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, absolutely. Um before, I mean, I'm the same person at the end of the day. It's it's just it's just that confidence thing. So beforehand, I think I played a lot more on being quiet and listening and waiting for others to call on me, waiting for an opportunity to speak, waiting for others' voices to be heard before I was. Oh there was a sense that I was very smart, but I wasn't sharing that with others either. Um and I ended up in sort of very little groups with mainly one-on-one interactions. So in primary school, I ended up with one core group of, and and surprisingly, we're we're still in touch now. Oh really? Um but uh there were only four of us, and you know, people used to pick on us, and we were those nerds who would read dictionaries and read books during our um lunch breaks, and we'd go in and spend time with the teachers and do some extra learning instead of going out and spending time with the other kids or running around. We we were sort of um sort of the weirdos of the of the class, which I didn't mind at the time because we had each other and that was awesome. Yeah. But then when I moved into secondary school, that persona and and who I was with with that group of friends, it came off as judgmental to other people, and that's where I started to find slight friction. And they thought that yeah, because I was intelligent, because I wasn't sharing what I was thinking, they filled in the gaps and they thought, well, she must be judging us on every single thing that we're doing. Um, but once I found that space, I was able to be quiet, and everyone around me was so boisterous that they didn't care, you know, they brought out more um more conversation and really engaged with me because I I was also the new kid in a area that doesn't have many new kids. So they really wanted to get to know me, right? And they made an extra effort, and because of that, they learned that my quietness wasn't just because I was sitting there judging, they didn't have to fill in those gaps, they knew my quietness was because I wasn't confident enough to share my thoughts. Yeah. So they called on me and asked for it, and that made such a difference, such a difference in those early days, and it then made a difference in my learning as well. If we bring it back to education and and how that affected my ongoing learning, um, if we think, you know, in those primary school days, I would ask questions of the teacher because I had that one-on-one time during lunch breaks and and that sort of thing. I really did get that dedication, and I had some great teachers. Um year seven, everyone is just everyone's new, everyone's trying to get a handle on things. Yeah, and then I get moved into this area again where I'm the new kid, I get that extra attention, and people were calling on me to ask, ask me for things. It gave it empowered me to then ask questions in class a lot more as well. So, oh what why are things that way? Oh, I don't quite get that. And it towards the end of my schooling, I had really good relationships with my teachers that you know lasted well and truly out of out of school because we were able to engage in in that way and get to know each other on a personal level as well as um in the in the classroom, which led to that comfortability and um approachability that you don't always get between a student-teacher relationship.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Right. So, what I'm hearing is mostly that transition in your personal social um interactions made a difference in terms of your teacher student interactions as well. Absolutely. You haven't talked so far about John Monash Science School. It sounds like you went from Mentone to South Gippsland. So, what happened in that little bit?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Uh yes, it was uh a bit of a blip. Um it was amazing. It was it was an interesting experience. It was amazing to be selected for such a competitive school, right? Such a competitive school, and that was definitely it felt like a feather in my cap, and I was where I needed to be, and I was being pushed forward. The issue and what we haven't touched on up until now. One was I I'm not great at studying and really forcing myself to study. Even today, I've you know completed a master's, and I still struggle with forcing myself to sit down, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

You mean homework sort of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, yeah, down bummer self-motivation to study. The thing we haven't spoken about is I went from year seven to year nine. I didn't do year eight. I also didn't do a lot of year seven because I was unwell.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Which meant I was great at what I was good at because I was already good at that in primary school. So mathematics, English, fine, you know, I I got through. But the other subjects like humanities and yeah, so those ancillary subjects that I wasn't always excelling at, I didn't have the same exposure to, year seven and eight, that they are actually your fundamentals. Right. And so I got into year nine, I was at South Gippsland, I was cruising basically. I wasn't getting great grades in those subjects, but I was doing well enough to to get by. No one sort of looked at me funny because I was doing so well in the other subjects.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

But once we get to John Monash, they expect you to excel in everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

That was year 10. Right. So yeah, I went from year nine, I did a series of select entry um exams for McRobertson, Nossell, and John Monash. It was at the at that time we were only the second cohort to be accepted. Um, and it was a new school, it was exciting. Everyone in there had this buzz about them. It was it was a really good experience. It was just the wrong experience for me because of what I'd gone through the couple of years and because of my habits, um, my study habits.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Uh I think I probably could have overcome them, but it would have taken a lot of work, and I don't know that I would have been as happy as I was.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah. So when did you go back?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Uh I think it was seven or eight months into the school year. Yeah. So I I went back for term four.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Wow, you've had quite a lot of stuff going on. Did you feel successful at school?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yes. I've I felt uh I felt successful because I've always had an academic mind.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

And that is how we are assessed, that's how we're judged. Um, and in particular, those top two subjects that I already mentioned, maths and English, they are sort of the epitome of what we see as smart.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

In that academic sense, or at least my perception of it. So, yes, I felt like I I was successful at school because I was I was always great at maths. Yep. And I did pretty well in English as well, and my spoken language is is quite good. I'm able to communicate quite well with I mean in my current role with clients and with friends and family now, too. Um a lot of that comfortability, and I think that English side of it isn't just the learnings that we had at school in the academic environment from a teacher. Yep. But I do want to bring it back to I think that's also that social confidence and that social comfortability and being around others who are also really well spoken.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Right. So you've basically already segued into the next question for us. Thank you for that. Um, did school prepare you for life? So it sounds like some of those communication things were part of your preparation for life. Can you tell us anything else that was helping or expand on the communication?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, it's funny because I I mean I've just said I I've done a master's, so I've been in academia. I think I had one year off since prep. Whoa. Until last year, which is 2025.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Okay, so you're 29.5 at PrEP. That means you have been studying for you do the maths.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Most of my life. Let's not put a number on it. Um, but yes, yes, I've been studying far, far longer than I haven't been. Um and so, yes, that there are a lot of things that I learnt through school that I now that I've used continuously throughout my life because my life has involved academia so so heavily. So I I remember doing English essays about um opinions and being able to dissect a newspaper article and pull out what's opinionated versus what's actual fact.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

You know, those little things and those exercises that we do think well when we're going through it, when are we ever going to use this? This is pointless. And I did, I continued to use that critical thinking throughout throughout my um academic life. I still also use it when I'm at work, but what I find is it it's those core subjects in being able to apply those core subjects in a way that isn't taught, um, or not always taught. And again, I I pull that back to I had really good teachers for a lot of my schooling.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And they were able to show me not just the methodology, but why we do the methodology, why it's important. Um and if we bring it back to that newspaper example, why do we need to know what's an opinion versus what's fact? How are others influencing us? How can we influence others? And that's you know, that that's one of the cores of what I do now in consulting. Yeah, is I I go in and influence others on, okay, I I can see that there's a problem in your business. How can we fix that together? But I need to influence you to come to the answer. I can't give you the answer.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Interesting. Without obviously revealing anything that is private information for businesses and so forth, can you think of an example that would help people who are listening to really see that movement from the critical thinking difference between opinion and fact and how you've used that in a particular event?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Absolutely. A lot of businesses go in with gut feel. So a lot of business owners go, oh, I think that this is this is right or this is true, or this is an area of the business that's going well, and so I'm going to invest in it.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Uh, so a perfect example is where a business had a warehouse and they had a storefront. Yep. Both were making money. So their warehouse did wholesale, storefront did retail and direct customer. And the business owner went, Oh, we're getting heaps of sales through our warehouse. Yep, we must be doing really well.

unknown 19:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

And we were able to look at the numbers, look at the resources required for the warehouse versus the retail. Um, and it took a long time to actually get that together because we got a lot of pushback from the business owner saying, No, I know my business, I know what's going on. Um, and so there was a lot of uh gentle communication and and nudges to say, well, here's what we've experienced before, this is what we suggest you do, here are some other benefits, you know, ancillary benefits, not just what we expected to see that might come out of having that that sort of information and that data. Um, and so once once we were able to get that data together, we were able to really clearly show your gut feel was wrong. I'm sorry. Um, and the retail is what's bringing in the most profit because it's not just about those sales that was what the um business owner was judging their business on. But when you look at the warehouse, the warehouse needed so many more resources, significant rent, significant cleaning as well because of the style of business that they were in. Um, and the those on costs didn't make sense um to support the sales that were that were going out. And as a result, because that business owner could see it, he had to step back, realize that his gut feel wasn't correct.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Um, and then we were able to start or open a conversation about how how are you going to ongoing either support the warehouse or focus on retail. Uh and we were we directed the conversation because we expected that this was going to be the best outcome, that he closed down the warehouse. Wow. Closed down the warehouse, focused on retail, and then expanded the retail. Right. So not only, I mean many years later now, um, the warehouse was closed down. And that person was able to open multiple storefronts for their retail.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

So not only did they focus on that retail, gain a profit again because they were they were really struggling, uh huh. Um, gain a profit again, but they were able to expand that retail and go. And now They're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I wish I'd listen to you sooner, type type conversations. But you can't sometimes you just can't tell someone. They've got to be able to see for themselves, they've got to arrive at that decision on their own.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

So I'm hearing a lot of stuff in that. I'm hearing not only that difference between opinion, which is the gut feel, and fact, which is the data that you were able to look at and then present to that person, but I'm also hearing some really tricky and well-navigated, gentle conversations that helped a person to move from one to the other. Do you think any of that communication was taught in the school setting, or was it something that you picked up possibly in school but isn't formally taught?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

I that question in particular I've been asked before throughout my MBA and through different leadership environments actually. And I've come to believe, and rightly or wrongly, that it wasn't school or any sort of teachings academically, but actually different experiences through my personal life.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Um, where I was put in positions where I had to gently navigate difficult conversations.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Is it something that you think could be more formally taught at school? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Should be. Should be. Right. Should be. Um the benefit of candor, gentle candor, yeah, I think can't be underrated. I think there's particularly in Australian culture, there's this uh perception that we always have to be liked and we have to be friendly and oh good day, mate, we've got to get along all the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

And I I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because we do come across kind and gentle and friendly and um and and yeah, easygoing, but there's a benefit to having difficult conversations in a gentle way, and that's I think it's quite freeing to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Because you're you're not holding on to things, you're not, you're not holding grudges, you're not um you're not holding on to these thoughts. You're able to release them in a way that's healthy, yep, in a way that's able to help other people grow and understand, um, and that gives you direct feedback as well. You want other people to be candid with you because that's how you grow, that's how you get feedback.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Um so I I think there is a yeah, there's a definite benefit of being able to teach that. I think it's really hard to teach.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Um and that's perhaps one of the reasons why we shy away from it, but it's absolutely something that's benefit beneficial, and it's something that is taught a lot for leaders and in leadership. It's it's a it's a critical, it's a critical skill to have.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Also could be tricky to assess.

unknown 25:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

So you've talked about some of the things that have prepared that school's done to prepare you for life. What if you think about the basic subjects if you like at school? Is there anything that you're going, yes, I definitely use this particular piece or that particular piece in your life?

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Um critical thinking as a whole, um, that I would say I learnt most in mathematics, but in general through science stem type of work. Yep. Um I definitely still use that. Um I am I have worked in accounting for many years, so I also used a lot of mathematics in that in that environment just because we're working with numbers. So knowing really quickly how to do my times tables and you know, being able to add up complex sums, knowing what's missing from an equation. Oh, all of those sorts of things have been really good. So for example, the what we were speaking about with the business that had the storefront and the warehouse and uh consolidating data, I had to know what data was missing from what we needed to have as an end result. So I needed to be able to essentially what you do in maths, look at an equation and go, all right, here's X, how do I find it?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

And maybe I could find it with the data I already had, or maybe I needed an additional input or an additional variable from the business owner. Uh so that that's always been something that's really critical uh with with my job and my role.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

In general life, I wouldn't say there's a lot that I still use or I still draw on. Um I do find though once we talk about the next life coming in, so my son or my my younger sister, being able to still call and recall some of those basics in maths, English, science. Um for me, they're the three, they're the three key um units. Being able to recall those nice and easily and then continue to help and support her as she grows and and her knowledge grows, I think has been really a really nice benefit of still being able to draw on that information. And it really shows as well how well it's it's stuck in my head and how well those teachers taught me that I'm still able to call on that.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah. In addition to the communication thing, is there anything that schools don't teach that you've had to learn and you would have when you've got to it, you've kind of gone, well, it could have been cool to have learnt this in school so much. So much right. Well, give us the list.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Um, you know, it's funny, my husband and I actually spent some time writing a list of some of the things. Um, so potentially a book in the works, we'll we'll see. But no, I think some of the main things would be around money, finances, basically how to live and how to navigate our system. Um, so voting is something that's not taught, taxes are something that aren't taught, um purchasing of a house or renting, right? You know, knowing what our rights are and what they aren't. And yes, I know there are professionals that we can go to about that, but how do we know which professionals to go to? Yes. How do we know, you know, we've got a hole in the roof? Do we call a locksmith? I I mean, obviously, but you're not gonna do that. But who do you call? Right. So there is so much that schools don't prepare us for, and unless you've experienced it or your parents have exposed you to it, um, you just don't know. I I remember going into my first share house, um, and one of the one of the people didn't know how to cook. And yes, we've got home ecumen and I actually did cooking classes in school as well as knowing how to cook, but they don't always teach you about going shopping and finding the cheaper options or of course, you know, how how long does something take to prepare it?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

What's the nutritional value that goes into it? There are so many people who go, oh well, macads is a cheap option, I'll just go and get that through uni.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

But their poor health suffers for it. It does. There's yeah, like I say, it's it's the it's the life lessons that I feel like schools aren't teaching, and maybe I think there's an argument to be made that maybe it's not their responsibility to teach it.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Um, but I think there is an element where schools should should just help provide a base layer or baseline, or provide and maybe it's a the government as a whole, provide additional support for people for young adults who haven't had that exposure.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

So if you had to say, let's say three to five particular items that you think, yes, this is the baseline that schools should at least introduce us to so that we at least know what we don't know, what would they be? They would be budgeting, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Nutrition, yep, and the I suppose if I can lump government sector together, how we as individuals engage with the government. And that should include voting, that should include Medicare, that should include centrelink, that should include um tax and taxes. The government wants us to engage, help us to.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

So what would you like to say? Actually, let's not go to that question yet. Can you tell us about a teacher who has been particularly inspiring, influential, positive in your in your school life?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

I can think of so many.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Oh good.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

For the purpose of this, for the clarity and story, let's pick one. There is there is one in particular. Um, and we spoke earlier about my high schooling and coming out with some really strong relationships with teachers, not just with students.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Uh, and there was one person throughout my high school who taught me mathematics, and I'm sure you can already feel from what I've said so far, that was my favourite subject.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Absolutely. Yeah, champions of maths here. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Um, so he to start with, I I had a really good foundation in maths, some great teachers in primary school. Like for the clarity of this, I won't go into that. But I had I had a really strong start. Yeah. And he taught me from year nine. Right. I was fortunate enough to be put in his mathematics class, and even at year nine, there were things that he hadn't taught the students that I'd already had exposure to.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

He picked up on that really quickly. And the benefit of picking up on that quickly was he was able to expand me and extend my knowledge instead of reteaching me what I'd already known.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

And that it's not it's not just me being able to learn more either. I I want to clarify, it's it's also the confidence and um the knowledge that I've been seen in in that moment that really fosters my development, my confidence, my self-image.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

As as I continue through schooling, as I continue through um academia. So that that moment for me was really special. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

That moment. I I I came in, they had no idea that whether I was smart, what level I was at, and he was really quick to on that assessment. And then he he did, he continued to grow me, he continued to help me develop in areas that I was interested in and areas that he thought would benefit me as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Incredible. Did he actually test you? No, interesting, not in that moment. So, how do you reckon he picked up on it?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Um, I think he picked up that I wasn't engaging in a couple of those first lessons. Yeah. And he came over again. I'm a new kid. Why why aren't I engaging? So that sort of triggered for him. And he came over and he basically went, Hey, what you know, what's going on? How are you going? And I went, Oh, you know, this is good, but I've done it before. That's the information you need. And yeah, and I don't know if you you notice that that even as I'm retelling the story, my voice gets small, I'm little, I feel young, I'm not confident, you know. You know, it I I've done it before. You know, it didn't feel like a big deal that I'd done it before. It didn't feel like it was something I needed to share. Um, so as a student sitting in that seat, if he hadn't have come over and asked me a direct question, no way he would have known that I'd done it before.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

No way he would have known that I wasn't engaging because I was Beyond of just stage not engaging and stage that little small, timid student. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Exactly. That's why that's why that confidence, that being seen is so powerful. And for that teacher to make such a quick assessment, and it's I mean, it might sound like such an easy question to ask, but it's so powerful. Such a good message to teachers out there. I do want to say the follow-through is also important.

unknown 36:41

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

So, yeah, you can see a student, but hey, let's let's continue to develop them. Let's and it was a lot of additional work for him. I know that it was additional work because he he then had to pull from um other units, other areas, give me additional work um to extend me, but it it was it was worth it, it was amazing. Um, and even after he left the school, I continued uh his tutoring ongoing.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Incredible. Incredible. Given that sort of cameo that you've given us, is there anything that you would like to say to teachers and educators so that they've got a sense of where they could go? What's what would be an important message for them to hear?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

I think the most important message is care and love your students as much as you can. I think there's there's no it every I think every teacher goes into wanting to teach because they have a care and love for students and knowledge and sharing that knowledge. And I think sometimes you get lost in the curriculum and what you're meant to do and your shoulds, you know, there are there are a thousand shoulds for teachers and shouldn'ts. You shouldn't touch your students, you shouldn't, you know, and I don't think forget about that, but I I think I think they're all important and they all provide you guidance, but don't forget what your original purpose was, and most of you are here or doing what you're doing because you love students and you love sharing knowledge, so continue that and make sure that that comes through when you're doing your teaching.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Incredible. I'm not sure that this question is relevant anymore, but I've put it at the end as in now we've had a chat. Do you think your 13 years in school-based education were well spent? Would you change your answer at all from your first yes?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

I still think it's well spent, but I think having done a bit more reflection, there are other things that have helped develop me as much, if not more, than schooling. Right. So I don't know that all of what I did was beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

So you would swap out some things and put some things in. Absolutely. Could you be bothered telling us about some of the things that you would take out?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Okay, I would I know it's an on-the-spot type question.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

It's tricky, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

It is an on-the-spot type question. Some of its choices as well. So I I did chemistry as an example, and my chem teacher was great, we got along really well, but I don't feel like it added any benefit or value to how I see the world, how I interact in academia. I yeah, I I I had an interest in it, but I also got enough of you know the the chemical reaction type um process just from physics as well. Got it. So for me, I probably would have subbed that out for maybe something artsy or something a little bit uh different to give me a bit of diversity. Um I think in younger schooling as well, we go through, we do go through um parliament and and what that looks like. We went through the Olympics and that was sort of fun. But I again I don't know that they added particular value. I loved doing the science stuff and I loved doing the artsy stuff. Um, and I still can't remember what I learned in parliament stuff.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Okay, so you did say earlier that it was really important to understand government and voting and things. Do you think that sort of thing needs to come a little bit later in education so you've got it closer to when you're actually going to vote?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

100%. Trying to tell an eight-year-old that a bill goes through certain processes, they're not going to remember that by the time they're 18. Right. Not only that, but they think, why are you telling me this now? So optimal is year 11 for that sort of information? What would you say? Maybe year 10, yeah, year nine, year 10, you're starting to get a little bit older, you're starting to engage in the the world around you, you know, the latest news, what's happening around the world, potentially a little bit of activism type talk as well. Um I think that's where a lot of our opinions start to be really cemented. And if we're starting to talk about our opinions and how do we make an evoke change, it is at that point that we're interested in Parliament and how Parliament House decides on that change because that's at the end of the day a big way that we can evoke change.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

So you would kind of create that as a core subject, like English is something that you can't drop. This is something that you can't drop.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

This is your put it as a segment of English, even. Right. You know, we we we do critical thinking and newspapers. Parliament after that. Talk about activism, talk about how we can change the world, talk about not-for-profit organisations.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

I'm imagining that there's going to be some year 9, 10, 11, 12 English teachers who are going, but we do that, but somehow it's not getting through.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I'm sure there are some. I I I I don't know the curriculum back to front, and maybe it's changed since I was in school. But uh I I'd be surprised if it's a specific element or requirement of the curriculum. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

All right, let's finish up with what's next for Grace.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

What's next for me? PhD. Not for a little while, I don't think. I think I'm I'm ready to take a break from academics. I'm ready to do some soft learning within new roles. Yep. Um I cannot uh I cannot rate a mentor more highly, so I think I will find or am trying to at the moment find a really strong mentor to continue to extend me. So something similar to that relationship that I had in in school. Um and yeah, I suppose continue to learn, continue to grow. I've been really fortunate that I've had that opportunity to be able to have continuous learning, yeah, and I don't want it to stop. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Incredible! Thanks for talking to us.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Grace generally considered herself successful at school, which was largely due to being aware that she was. Head of her age in maths and English. This was verified by South Gippsland Secondary College, allowing her to go from year seven into year nine. But ultimately, it wasn't test scores or advanced textbooks that led her to confidence at school, but the willingness of a teacher to see her. That noticing of her quiet disengagement in a respectful and curious way was key. As educators, we talk so passionately about student outcomes, by which we largely mean test scores. We miss the listening and the watching, which is where the real difference is made. Teachers bothering to inquire into the young humans in their room to find out what is going on for them, creating, as Grace said, comfortability and approachability. I thought it was incredibly interesting the way Grace described the different responses to her quietness. While in one school she described her quietness as being read by others as judgy. Then the next school it was read by others as lack of confidence and they gently began to call on her. This reminds me that my behaviour may be interpreted by teachers or peers in multiple ways. When educators or peers jump to one interpretation which then drives their responses, we might be mistaken. It might be more complex or nuanced, lack background information, or just be wrong. So, when we see a student behaviour, good or not, the way we educators attribute meaning to this needs to be held as maybe, and the best way to get closer to an accurate, nuanced understanding is to ask the young person themselves. Grace's story about the gut feel of the business that wanted to put resources into their warehouse and contrasting that with the data which indicated that the resources would be better placed within the retail side. This makes me think about the constant emphasis on evidence-based educational choices. Teachers' gut feel tends to be influenced by teacher habit and mood while data is more reliable. Data is not just test results. The data Grace's teacher responded to was simply her silence and slowness in getting started on maths tasks that were too easy. Even more important in the story about the warehouse and retailing resources was the interpersonal skills that Grace brought to guide the change. A lot of gentle communication and nudges, and gentle candor is how Grace described that. Extraordinary communication skills like this don't just happen. Grace was very clear that these could and should be taught explicitly in school, but they aren't. She recognised they could be hard to teach and assess, but that is not a reason to avoid this. Leadership courses teach these high-level communication skills, so schools could.com. That's 13 as a word, not a numeral, and all lowercase no spaces. Also, if you are between 18 and 30 ish, and would be willing to share your story, please also get in touch via email. Thanks for listening. I hope you will tune in to the next episode too. Bye for now.