3 Jonathan

Jonathan tells us about the choices he made, quite deliberately, to either get good grades or put his energy into being social. He talks about the importance of working at his level of competence and how grateful he was when teachers were able to do this effectively. Jonathan was very specific and explicit that the real point of school is to prepare young people for the world after school. Like Bella he would like to send the message that ATAR results do not define you, so it would be great if there was less pressure around this.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I think that that coming in the conversation of why are we actually doing this? And if they answered with, well, what we're actually doing is this is your problem solving that we're building up here. And this is going to help you with a vast array of problems that are going to pop up in your life. It could be a job, it could be something you're going through that that's you know a once-off thing, but it's really tricky. This might prepare you for that. And I think for some kids I would be like, Oh, oh, I get it now.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

We spend 13 years at school. Is it well spent? This podcast offers a platform to school leaders to tell us about how their 13 years at school has or has not prepared them for life. My hope is that this might reach the ears of all of us involved with a school-based education. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. I invite any young people 18 to 30 years to contact me if you would like to share your experiences. Was it 13 years well spent for you? Simply email 13 years well spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we start, some acknowledgments. I acknowledge the Ganaik and I and Banarong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all those nations of people and to thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary Wakeling, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school believers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not leave it also to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us to understand and consider how these stories might mediate your thinking about school-based education. Welcome again, or for the first time, to our third episode of 13 Years World Spend. I'm Susan Taylor. Our guest today is Jonathan. Jonathan went to primary school in a government school in Melbourne. For secondary school, Jonathan also went to a government school in Melbourne. Jonathan is now 30. If you hear some noise in the background, it is Jonathan's son who is nine months old. My aim is to be real in this podcast rather than perfect. Life happens and can be heard. Jonathan, overall, do you think your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Good question. I think overall, probably not. And excuse me. And that's more a reflection on me and not the school system. I feel like towards the end of my schooling, especially the last, say, three years or so of high school, I wasted that time academically speaking. I didn't really drive with school as much and found it a bit, I don't know, just not important at the time to me. And looking back on that now, I think I wish I'd you know tried a little harder. Um, not necessarily for like a better ATAR or anything like that, but just from a uh learning how to learn perspective. Because I didn't basically build up lots of habits that you do normally build up in school, um, I'm struggling a lot with things down the track because I just didn't focus on yeah, those those uh really specific skills that you will pick up, um, especially in the later years. So probably a little bit of a waste.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I'd love to know more about what you think in terms of learning what to learn, but before we jump into that side, can I pick up the word jibe you said before? What was it about school that you felt like you didn't really jibe with?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Um I think it was more just at the at the time. Um I just got to sort of around the age of 16, I just became just way more social and and um fixated on friendships and and just general relationships and and my interests and hobbies and stuff. I'd also sort of stopped doing sports in favor of that those other things that I uh sort of was interested in. But um I think it was just for for me um it wasn't engaging enough for a lot on in a lot of the subjects that I was doing, or or rather my interests weren't engaged. Um I I and previous to those years, like I was typically very academic through all my schooling um up until sort of about that 16, so yeah year 10-ish. Um like in uh year seven and and eight, I was in a special high achievers program because I basically got 100% on all my tests without didn't study, I didn't do anything, it just came to me and and uh did really well, and I was doing like advanced maths for those years and and um all that sort of stuff. So so school was always something that I'd I had done well at, but then it got to a point where that social stuff kicked in, I thought of it less, and then the interest pivot, and I just it wasn't something that I got a lot of value out of anymore. Whereas I used to love seeing the look at how well I did on this test and all this of the stuff, and that whole you know puberty side of stuff hadn't hit yet, so there wasn't anything driving me elsewhere, it was just this is cool, this is it's fun, I'm good at it, so awesome, and then things changed, and then whilst I was never bad at school, even those later years, I still did fine. I just was nothing like what I used to be because it just didn't, yeah, it wasn't interesting to me anymore compared to the other new things that life had to offer.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Uh that was more what it was. I don't I don't think it was anything other than my interests just changed.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Okay, so it wasn't like achievement fatigue or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

It was more I still loved doing tests and stuff, even in the later years. Like that was my favorite thing was actually doing a test, which is so bizarre because everyone's like, I hate tests. But but I I loved the almost immediate feedback of I got this right and it feels good. And it's not always the best way of learning, of course, or testing your knowledge, but for me, I was good at them, so it was something I enjoyed, and so it didn't matter. Like, I remember in year 12, um, my English exam, especially like the whole year I'd been, you know, getting on my assignments. I was sort of like seized in the middle of the road. Um, my English exam at the end of the year ended up being a B in comparison because it was more of that testing environment of like a ah, let's see what you can do in this time crunch, not a project. And so it changed very differently. So I still liked that, but um just the other stuff, just I think it maybe that's what it was. Maybe it was the projects. Lots more projects got you know integrated into the curriculum the further you went on. You had sacks and stuff in the higher years, and I just didn't didn't like that. Didn't enjoy it. One quick thing, get the test done.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

So you also talked about learning to learn skills. What sorts of things are you thinking that you might have picked up if you'd been a little bit more connected to what school was offering?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah, so I I I think that um, and from what I remember observing of um, especially a lot towards the the later years in um year U12 particularly, um, a lot of the kids who or peers that weren't as um naturally gifted, let's say, as others, they still did well because they were able to push themselves through actually studying and and doing all those things and and basically setting themselves proper goals and finding ways to achieve them and doing all that sort of stuff. Whereas I never really learned that um because I was fine with having my grades get lower than what they were because they were still decently good for the most part, so I wasn't concerned about it. I didn't also didn't really know what I wanted to do when I finished school, so uh the idea of an ATAR wasn't that you know enticing to me getting a high one. I was like, okay, whatever, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Um, and I initially I did want to go into like teaching and and to get into the universities that I wanted to at the time, it wasn't a particularly high ATAR for that. So I'm like, I I'm confident I will achieve that no matter what. So, what's the point in pushing myself? But in doing that, I missed out on how to push myself and how to learn and how to do that stuff, which is a really important skill that uh I think is that's a big thing that's actually taught that you don't see it's in the background of schooling, right? And so you don't everyone goes, Oh, well, they didn't teach me how to do my taxes. Yeah, but what they actually taught you was how to problem solve, how to push, how to recognize how to do things, but it's all background and you just take it for granted. You don't realize that that's probably schooling that's done that, and so I never really engaged with that as much as I should have, and so now I struggle to push myself with lots of things, and it it makes things harder than they should be for someone who's 30.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Do you think because you're you're a unicorn in the sense that you liked the exams and the tests, so you sort of engaged with that, and that was a motivating factor for you.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

If there was something that was assessed that you could see um almost a physical mark for in one way or another, that was more around how to problem solve, how to goal set and achieve it, how to do some of those other skills that you've just talked about, do you think that might have motivated you a little bit more on reflection?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

I think I think it probably would have, um, just knowing how how I am with these sorts of things. Um it's definitely I think a step in the right direction for me personally. But like you said, I'm probably a unicorn in that regard that I like testing, um as opposed to like uh project work and that sort of stuff. Um so yeah, maybe it would have helped. Um I I think um yeah, I think a big part of it for me is the it's the instant feedback I get from testing. It's that that that hit of, oh, this is how well I went straight away. I I I'm not good at delayed gratification in any way. Right. So I think that for me is is even if there was the testing over a long-term period of a here's how you've done for the year on this, I still don't think it would matter about me enough personally, because I need that instant hit of like, I did this test, let's mark it straight away, and here's how I went. If I had knew I was waiting for something for a whole year, I don't think I would be able to continue to see that goal and work towards it.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

But if it was a more short-term sort of hit, then perhaps perhaps, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Um, but I don't know, maybe it's hard to say, of course.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

It's all maybe, it's all looking back, right? Yeah, um, I'm really interested about how school did or didn't prepare you for life. What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Um, yeah, so like I sort of alluded to before, um, there are a lot of I think hidden skills that um a lot of people take for granted and don't really realize. And and um I I think it'd be uh almost rude to say that it didn't prepare me for life in a lot of ways, because it it does. It's not you can you can do the classic, oh well when am I ever going to use Pythagoras' theorem, you know? And it's like, okay, sure, but what you really learned there was how to identify problems and how to solve them and how to work through these complex um tasks, and that's what you were really learning. And for some people, it actually became you know beneficial in what their job is, but that's few and far between, that's okay. But so I I think it did help a lot of that. I I find that uh, and I was someone who was and and am someone who's fairly um analytical and also someone who's you know the math side of stuff I've always enjoyed, and so I do think that that helps a lot. My problem solving ability I still feel is quite good, despite not having uh oh, despite all the things I didn't push myself for in in high school, I still think that still was bled through a lot. And I work in IT now, so it that that ability to problem solve is an everyday task, and that absolutely set me up for that. Yeah, which was I think the the real point of schooling is to be able to function and operate and navigate or have the skills to figure out the real world, not necessarily apply the exact things you learnt, and so I think that that was done actually quite well. It's just extremely hard to see that when you're in school, you're a kid, you don't get it. You just like look at the thing that you learn and you go, why where did that come up?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Do you think it might help if some of the teachers like while you're doing Pythagoras, instead of saying you have to get this correct in the test, which obviously motivated you, but if the teachers were talking more about this is actually learning problem-solving skills or this is learning um other goal setting and and and achieving your goal sort of skills, whatever, whatever your particular skill is. If the teachers were sprooking that side a little bit more, do you think that would have been clearer to you, potentially motivating to you? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, so I think I think that would that would probably help some kids for sure. Um I remember a lot of kids, or not a lot, but a couple of kids that really needed to understand the reasons why they were doing things for it to click. Yeah. And and that was some people, they were just so hellbent on that that they just couldn't do it without knowing why. You know, like why are we doing this? Which is it's a good probably good way to be because it makes you question lots of things and you get to the bottom of things, you know, if you naturally like that. But I think that that came in the conversation of why are we actually doing this? And if they answered with, well, what we're actually doing is this is your problem solving that we're building up here, and this is gonna help you with a vast array of problems that are gonna pop up in your life. It could be a job, it could be something you're going through that that's you know a once-off thing, but it's really tricky. This might prepare you for that. And I think for some kids, I'd be like, Oh, oh, I get it now. Other kids might go, Well, that won't be me, that's stupid, and go, I'm a kid, I don't care about that. I don't, the foresight still doesn't click when you're a teenager, right? You just care about the here and now and and what's going on in your life. You don't really think about, oh, if I put in the work now in 10 years, my life will be easier. Kids can't really look past that far. Some can, but it's I think that's rare, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah. I'm sure there's problems that they could be solving in their life at 16 as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

So yeah, true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Okay. Are there things that you've learned in life since school and that you've then thought, gee, it would have been good if I had a bit of a clue about this before I'd left school. Is there anything that you've learned in life since that you think could potentially be part of schooling?

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah, um, yeah, I'm sure there's a few things. Uh immediate thing that comes to mind that's maybe slightly different from that question, but I think um the push towards getting a really good ATAR and that sort of stuff towards the end of schooling is like something that the teachers go, this is like it in a bit. Like you you have to get this right, or else everything's wrong and and nothing is gonna work out for you anymore.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Which I is so incorrect for real the real world. Right. Like uh, you know, I I went I went to uni, most of my like pretty much all my friends went to uni straight out for school, right? Because the teachers were like, This is what you've got to do. The majority of them didn't complete the degree. They either dropped out immediately. I was one of those people, I dropped out just about straight away because I was just doing it because everyone else was doing it, right? And so I'm like, oh, well, this is what I gotta do. A couple of years later, I went back again and ATA didn't matter at all. They just went like, okay, the thing you're applying for, let's that's fine, we'll give it a go. Like, it's you've been in the world now, this is what you do. Fine, no problems. Like it doesn't, it doesn't actually define what you can do at all if you're willing to take a year. If you want to, you know, go straight into university, sure, you need an ATAR for you to get in, right? That's that's fine, but it is not the be all end all to go to university straight away and and absolutely smash your schooling and make sure you do the best you possibly can, because university is not for everyone, and you can absolutely go back at any other point in time, and you'll almost be sure to get what you want, unless it is something very like you want to be a doctor, maybe you have to do some other courses first, and then you'll get in. But like there is another pathway there, and it is pushed so hard that there is not, and it's scared a lot of kids into just like trying to do well, or else my life is doomed. Uh, and that's not real.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Right. So that story, particularly in late secondary, you just think debunk it, debunk it, get it Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's right. And it I think it it pigeonholes a lot of um kids into doing things they don't want to do. It doesn't allow them to explore the things they like because it it if they if you want to do well or feel like you haven't failed that, you force into the subjects that you're good at, which are not necessarily the subjects you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Like if I want to do art, but I'm not immediately good at art in in year 11 and 12, it's gonna be harder for me to do. I might enjoy it more, but I'm not gonna get a good score. So I won't do that because I know I'm good at maths, you know? Okay, and it doesn't help.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Um so let's head back towards what have you learned since school?

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah, um, that's uh that's a good one. Um I think like there are some obvious ones that you don't learn and things like taxes, uh, which sounds silly, but it is actually an important thing that uh you kind of need to know or be willing to pay someone for. Uh it's a lot easier than it used to be now. There's so many automated tasks that happen just before you even have to look at it. But knowing that those real-world things um are definitely uh things that I've that everyone has to adjust to very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Um, and also going from school to say a full-time job, the world is totally different, right? Like it and and those are the things, those real life, real work interactions, you learn very fast, you have to. And those are the things that that you don't pick up in school, which look, obviously it's a different environment, you're not really supposed to, but there is no real here's what the we're a world actually functions like. And and and it it honestly it shows that I'm now working in IT but in schools, and you can see the teachers and staff who have never left the schooling world, and you can tell they've never left the schooling world, right? The their view on how everything works is quite skewed compared to the interactions that I've had and anyone else's had that's come from a different career before that. And I feel like that schooling environment by you know, high school extension, university, then working back in school, you don't get to experience those things and uh as much anyway. And uh those are the lessons that you you learn very quickly. It's more the interactions, how to take responsibility for things, um, you know, and and real-world things, like I said, the the taxes, but also what does it look like if I want to own a house one day? What does it look like to have kids? Like, where what do you need to know before you just jump straight into it? Because I remember there are plenty of kids who uh in in high school, like, as soon as I finished, I want to be a mum and stuff. And I'm like, now I'm looking back on it, like, I don't think you mean that. It's a lot, you can't just like jump straight in and hope it all works out. You have to learn these things, and that's only gonna happen when you're put into the real world or put into the situations. Um, and it also comes a lot of maturity, I think, as well, which that's just time, you can't really force that.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

But um So, what I'm hearing is taxes, how to buy a house, what that looks like, all the ins and outs of that. Yeah. Also things like personal responsibility, the sorts of things that you need to be thinking about when you're having children, which you have. Yes, and you might hear some of the noises of children and dogs in the background while we're recording, because that's the reality of life.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Um, do you think any of those things could or should be in the school curriculum?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, um, one more I might just quickly add to that list because I think this can definitely be in there are finances.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Finances in what way?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

So um, I guess managing your finances, understanding money, credit, um, that sort of thing where I feel a lot of people are happy to go and uh get personal. Lines without thinking about it and not realizing the amount of money they might be paying off in the end and how much it could be actually costing them in the long run, um, and and looking at alternatives or a way to go about it, maybe how to save some rules to to maybe implement in your life to help you still get the things you want to do, save money and all that sort of stuff, managing your money. Now, um, there are some like you can do um in BC, I'm pretty sure they offer like you know business type um subjects, and that's great, but it that's only if you want to go into that, right? And so there's no there's no real like you here's some general like life class sort of thing. Here's some things that you will experience in the first year out of school for a lot of kids. I mean, not not everyone, but the these are the first things you'll experience. Here's how to deal with them so you don't feel lost and overwhelmed the second they come up because you kind of do. I mean, often you'll go to your parents and you'll be like, ah, mom, dad, I need help with this. Not everyone has that luxury. That's right. They can't all r turn to a parent to get help with this stuff, or maybe the thing that they're struggling with, their parent also struggles with way worse and is not a good role model. Like, like maybe their parent, unfortunately, has a crippling gambling addiction. And they're not gonna go to their parent to go, I need money advice. Because the parent just blows it all. Um, or I shouldn't say that, they just have this issue that they they're struggling with themselves. What's the point, right? So I think having those things would be great. But yeah, fight finance, I think, would be a really good one because uh I at the moment I think gambling, especially is Australia's one of the worst countries in the world for gambling. We are terrible with that sort of stuff because everything, all the ads are so enticing to get people to just bet on everything possible. Um, and so many people end up in such bad situations as a result, right? So those sorts of um bits of information would be, I think, super helpful.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

That is so interesting. Would you if if that was put into school, it sounds like that is really baseline for everyone. Yeah, would you make it a an essentially a compulsory subject through those later years of school?

SPEAKER_02 24:04

I I think so, yeah. I think it's really important. And I know a lot of uh a lot of kids uh would would be like this is such a drag, you know, this is so annoying to have to do this. I'm not saying like uh I don't think it would it should be something that's like a a whole like I don't think you dedicate the same amount of time as say to maths to this. Maybe it's like a a half hour class twice a week or something, or whatever it is, like a small, more digestible, like because you just need some baseline information on these things so you can be a bit more well equipped to um ask more questions when they're needed or identify when something is not a good idea, whereas you often don't have that. And it doesn't take a lot of knowledge to figure that out. Like you could spend a week looking up how mortgages work and be and have enough information yourself to be comfortable and confident in making a decision that actually works for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

If you've understood the maths that's behind the stuff, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

But but but there's like a like I think mortgages is a good one for a lot of people because I know a lot of people choose to go brokers, others don't, but uh and I don't say don't use brokers because they they definitely are helpful um in a lot of cases, but you can be confident enough in your decision making if you understand a little bit of math, of course, but also just digging into how mortgages work or how interest rates work on a basic level, it's easy to spot when something is a bad deal or a good deal, right? Um, or or understanding that that risk that's involved in in whatever you're looking at. It doesn't take that much to learn. And so again, half an hour chunk, you know, twice a week, is literally going to be enough over the course of like a year, and you will have way more knowledge than 90% of adults have before they look into this stuff themselves, right? It'll just it'll be a lot, I think, more beneficial, and it doesn't require a heap of time investment.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yeah, really interesting. So you've talked about some things that you think schools could be teaching but aren't. Yeah, is there anything that you think schools are teaching and they could probably let it slide? Yeah, sure. Create some space for what's important.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah, um, that's a good question. It's hard to look back and think about let's make it more personal.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Is there anything that you learnt in school that you just think, I really just didn't need to spend those hours on that particular thing?

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yeah. Um, like it's it's quite hard to say. I I don't I don't think so, really. Like, because the thing is, the in every subject, there is always a chunk of the curriculum where you think, why, you know, but you but you shouldn't cut the whole subject, you know? And so I think for everyone, there's like like for example, I remember uh I can't remember what the subject was, might have just been like humanities or something, right? Um, or whatever it was, and learning about the different like structures on a coastline or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

And I'm like that's the geography, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

But I think humanities had geography in it and stuff when it was like year eight or something like that. You know, it wasn't its own subject, so they sort of crammed a lot into one. And so it was like learning about these structures, and I'm like, that's cool to know, but it's like a fun fact type thing. This probably isn't ever going to come up for me unless I live in an area that has lots of this stuff, which I didn't at the time and and and don't currently. Yep. Um it's so it's that sort of stuff where I'm like, uh why? But the overall learning geography I think is interesting and and does have its uses. So I think there are small pockets that I'm like, that seems silly, why? But I think a lot of the subjects that are taught uh I I think they've all had value for me. Okay, I don't think there's anything that I would I would cull, just aspects of them. Uh English is a big one. I know that's like a one of those big subjects that you have to do mandatory all the way through to year 12. But there are these times where I know it's again teaching those other skills in the background, but I remember going through and you dissecting articles and going, what does the author mean here? And you have to you have to come up with the craziest things to get good marks, and it's like it doesn't have to be that deep all the time, you know. Like I remember doing it, and there was this article and a picture of a kid with an iPad, and there's a stack of books behind them. And what are the author trying to say? And I'm like, Well, the kid's facing away from the books, and you've got the iPad, iPad future books in the past, like, but you're trying to come up with these things, and you're like, the reality of the article is it's not that deep. It's explaining in the article, like it's a cool picture, but most people reading an article aren't going over it 10 times in their daily life, dissecting all these little things. Again, it's probably those other skills that it's developing, but those things, it's really hard to look at it and go, that seems valuable. Where am I going to use that? Uh, and uh it's contradicting, of course, what I said about the math side of things, but uh it it it seemed to me to have a lot less value in life compared to math where you're learning problem solving. These things seemed more niche to what you to what your endeavours might be later in life. Sure that might come up, but for me, I like never using that.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

It's so to summarize, what I'm hearing you say is the subjects themselves are fine. Keep the subjects, just take a little bit of content out of those subjects because you just don't need to be hammered over and over with something like analysing a picture and figuring out what the author meant.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah, exactly. Especially with those ones that are it's basically arbitrary in what you think because all subjective. Well, what do you think the author meant? Well, I think this, but I don't know, ask them, you know, like what did they actually mean? Who knows? It's up for interpretation. How do you how do you effectively mark subjective responses? You know, it's it's really difficult, I think. And like it has value, but I I just think it was a little bit too heavily focused on, yeah, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yep, got it. Have a think about the teachers that you had. Are there any standout teachers that you would like to describe who that person was, what it was it that they did that really connected with you and helped you on your way?

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Absolutely. Um I've got uh probably three uh immediate ones. Um coincidentally, this is a good time because I over the Christmas break, which was you know a couple weeks ago, um, we're up here and I bumped into my math teacher um up at the uh bakery here, um, who I hadn't seen since year seven, uh or eight, I think. Um so it's like 16, 17 years ago. Right. I bumped into it and I said, Hi. Like, I'm like, are you such and such? And he's like, Yeah. And I'm like, oh, you taught me in you know this in math. And he was like, that's crazy, like, you know, all sort of stuff. And it was actually really awesome. And he was my favorite teacher in year year seven and eight, and he was my math teacher. And um yeah, he was just super, super nice, really like he took the time with all the students the the way that they needed it, and he he was the I think the only teacher I had that actually pulled me and one of the other kids in the class aside in year seven and eight because he was like, This isn't enough for you guys, this is not challenging at all. Like, because I was I was 100%ing every test that and that he he put with ease. Like, it was not not hard stuff for me at the time. He's like, here's some advanced stuff that we do in year nine and ten. Right. Let's go through it. And he sat down with me and this other student and took us through it and was like, Do you do you get this? I'm like, I think so. And but we were actually challenged. We were like, how does this work? This is this is cool, you know. But he he recognized that this was not enough for us, but here's something that might be, and took the time, which no other teachers really did that throughout my learning, yeah, um, like he did. And it was it was really good to see someone show interest and and care in in who you are and personalize it to you because lots of teachers just glaze over that, or they see a student that gets 100% and go, Well, you're not a new teacher anymore. You get it all right, you're fine, you know? Right. Not recognizing that hey, if you want this kid to excel, really give them harder stuff, make them keep working and thinking because right now they're not really thinking because it's not enough to stimulate them.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

He saw that and did something about it, which is really cool. Um, two other teachers really quick. One, I had a legal studies teacher in year 11, and he was just someone who was happy to talk to you as if you weren't teacher and student. And so, and he would he would really connect with everyone as like a person, not a student or a teacher. And so I remember he would especially when he would um take us, like if you ever had um like into school sports and stuff, uh, even though he's a legal studies teacher, he would, you know, take whatever sport it was, um, and he would chat to you and tell you stories about what he's done, and but and you know, probably shouldn't be saying this, but he would like swear and talk to you as if you're an adult, right? But having that respect shown to you that no, I'm just gonna talk to you like you're a person, was something that again the teachers other teachers didn't do. He saw that you're old enough to understand what I'm saying. Like, this let's not pretend you're a kid. Yeah, you get this, and he would tell you and talk to you like this, and he would share things about his life. And I I I was into music, and your son was in music, like a little bit older than me, he was out of school, his son, but like into music, and he would talk to me about I was in a band at the time, and he'd show real interest because that's real wealth, you know? And that was awesome as well. Uh, so he was great, and the last teacher was my year 12 English teacher. Um, she was she was just an awesome person. She again um knew how to communicate with everyone, she was also in like a leadership leadership position, and she was also a marker for the uh year 12 exams for English, so she really knew how to tailor everything to what we needed. Um, but she also helped me try and get a part-time job um at the time because her husband worked in a cafe or it was like a chef or something like that, and she tried to help me do do all that. So she was really nice, and she was the only person I actually got. Like you signed the t-shirts at the end of the year when you do the she's the only signature I got on my t-shirt. That was it, it was just from her for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Um she's the only person you ask for a signature, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah, and she's the only one who signed that t-shirt. I don't I don't think I have any more, but like she was the only person who signed of all my friends and and everyone, just this one teacher. She was just awesome. So I definitely had some good ones. I was very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Let's flip the question.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Um, being sensitive to whoever it is, is are there any teachers who stand out for you that you really would like to let them know something or other didn't work for you?

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Uh yeah, thankfully, few and far between. I I don't didn't really have many. I think there was one one teacher that we that had in uh it was year seven or eight or something like that, um, or maybe nine, I don't know, early on. Um and she'd taken a break um from teaching for a little while. I th she might have had kids, something like that. Um but she took an extended break and then came back to teaching, and she was just a bit rusty, I think. And the kids did not cut her any slack. So unfortunately, our class was also pretty rough to her, which wasn't very fair. However, um she would not deal with things in the appropriate way. Lots of just the way she would say things or the yelling or whatever it was, just the the things that she was, the tactics she was trying to control the class and stuff weren't working, but it didn't help that she couldn't admit when she was wrong on things, and there was a a fatal mistake she was making teaching us maths, which was when you multiply um a positive and negative number, you get a negative number. She said you got a positive number and tried to teach us that, and we're like, that's wrong. She wouldn't listen. It's like a it's a very important thing to learn. And if you're getting corrected by your students, and I I know that you're the teacher and you're supposed to know, but maybe listen to what they're saying and go, let me double check that actually. She wouldn't. And we were like, This we're not gonna listen to you now because you've just shown that you can't listen to what we have to say, you're getting it wrong, and insist that it's right. That doesn't help anyone, and so I think the class sort of switched off at that point and didn't want to bar over and it made it her life a hell as well, which sucked for her, like it wasn't fair at all. Yeah, but you're also 13, 14-year-old kids starting to go through puberty, you're you're getting really snarky for no good reason. Uh that doesn't excuse it, but it's a reality, yeah. Uh, and so but it didn't help the that that she wasn't prepared um to to take on board what we what we had going on.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah, so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Overall, what would you like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policy makers? Are there any messages to education people that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Um, that's a good question. Uh that's that's tough. Um, I don't know. It I think more just sort of some of the points that are already sort of brought up that that especially for curriculum stuff, bringing in some of those real world tasks and learnings towards the end, less of a focus on pushing people into the the you gotta study and get into uni. Yeah, that's just well again. I don't know what it's like now, of course. This was you know 12-13 years ago for me, but at the time, too much, too, too much of a focus on it. Um and and I think do more of what my math teacher did. Really try, I know it can be very difficult, um, but trying to uh really personalize the experience where you can for the students, um, and understanding that just because a student's doing really well, that doesn't mean they're actually stimulated and learning. Um that's not where it ends at 100%, you know. Yeah, uh there is more to it, and uh there are so many teachers that that don't pick up on that, uh, and the good ones they do. I mean, that's I shouldn't say that, but better ones will will realize when things need to be tailored. And I think that's important. And it's not easy, of course. There's no real I don't have a solution for it, obviously. Um, but uh I think whatever that looks like in in practice would be good to see more of.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Sure. Sure. So after chatting today, you said at the beginning that you thought your 13 years in school-based education were not that well spent. After chatting today, would you change that view in any way?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Um not that much. I mean, I still think that I wasted a lot of my time. Um and I think that is I just didn't have the maturity then to deal with that. I think if I had that same structure now, I would do way better. Um so I still think that overall it probably wasn't the best use of my time. Um, but again, still that's on me rather than the education system. I think the education system at the time for me was still beneficial and I still think it was worth it. Um, but I didn't apply that. That's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Fair. So what's next for Jonathan?

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Oh, what is next? Um hard to even think past the next day at this point.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, all that happens when you've got a little one.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um I don't know. I at some point um when it makes sense, I would I would like to uh career change um into something different. Um I think that's definitely something that I would like to to focus on. Um other than that, I mean I think exploring some other hobbies. I've been a bit a bit bogged down in the same ones for a long time that are just sort of getting a bit a bit old and tired of. I I'm getting a little bit more into my art lately, so I think I'd like to focus more on that. Yep. Um that's been a lot of a lot of fun for me. Um yeah, and then just focusing on family, you know, raising raising a little one and seeing where that that journey takes us. Um, because that's gonna be a lot and very exciting. Um yeah, a lot of that. Uh again, it's it's hard to think past the next day at the moment. So uh just just surviving, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, well, I appreciate all of what you've shared, how much candor there was.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

And I wish you all the best with all of the things that are happening in your future.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

That's okay. Thank you for taking the time. I definitely enjoyed this process, it was really nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Cool. Jonathan did not think his 13 years were well spent. However, he did not blame the schools for that. He blamed himself for it. He thought that he didn't apply himself, especially in the later training stuff, when he made a clear choice to redirect his mind and effort towards friends and hobbies. I wonder if Jonathan's experience is shared by others in that made of pain kind of stuff, potentially contributing to the school results around the IT personnel. He was ready for something harder than that's the stuff. But it was just a context of detailed stuff. And it's kind of like an adult stuff. In some cases, there was also interesting full health, like with getting a job. It's very clear that it is not just about content level adjustments. It is about staying each person in the brain of a human being with their own background stories and needs to be. Jonathan was very specific and explicit that the real point of school is to prepare young people for the world after school. The story of doing school, the ITA is the most important thing. Jonathan says is just not true. Even though he also got in immediately after school with the idea he achieved. I know just a lot of educational research and conversation is focused on the student outcomes, which is generally made just find out fine data to thank you to the listeners to give the thing as well as the podcast of your time. If you found it interesting, please let others know that 14 years episode resonated for you for what actions might you take as a result of this stuff. I warmly invite educators or anyone to share the thoughts by emailing the 13 years well spent at email.com stuff. That's 13 is a word, not a numeral, and all other types of notables. Also, if you are between 18 and 30, feature. I would be willing to share your story, but please also get in touch by email. Thanks for listening. Uh if you were tuning to the next episode to five and a half.