4 Clair

Clair does not think her years at school were well spent. She sees herself as not cut out for school, but did get a lot in terms of social interactions and sport achievements. Clair joins other guests in suggesting that schools teach more life maths particularly in terms of shopping, counting back change, buying houses and tax. While Clair did not feel successful at school, she is proud to be a business owner now.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:26

We spend thirteen years at school. Is it well spent? This podcast offers a platform to school leavers to tell us about how their thirteen years at school has or has not prepared them for life. Guy Claxton wonders if young adults would say it is thirteen years well spent. My hope is that this might reach the ears of all of us involved with school-based education. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organisations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. I invite any young people, 18 to 30 years, to contact me if you would like to share your experiences. Was it 13 years well spent for you? Simply email 13 Years Well Spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we start, some acknowledgements. I acknowledge the Ganai Kernai and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary Wakeling, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least also to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us to understand and consider how these stories might mediate your thinking about school-based education. Claire is my hairdresser. Everyone's story is part of the picture. Claire's story is one of success, although she did not think her years at school were well spent. While she has some ideas that could have improved her school experience, she also takes responsibility for wandering attention and choosing socialising and sports over academic success. This interview takes place in Claire's saloon at the end of the day. You may therefore notice it's a bit echoey. This is just part of the real life that I hope to capture through the 13 Years Well Spent podcast. Toward the end of our conversation, we were talking about the current Victorian secondary pathways where VCE, the Victorian Certificate of Education, is only one. VM was spoken of, and neither of us were sure what this was. I looked it up. It is a vocational major, which is a two-year applied learning programme which is part of VCE. There is also now VPC Victorian Pathway Certificate and VET Vocational Education and Training. This is not my area of expertise. I am just providing the long form of the acronyms. Let's listen to Claire. Our guest today is Claire. Claire went to primary school in a government school in regional Victoria until grade 5, then to a Catholic school in the same area for grade 6. For secondary school, Claire went to a Catholic school for years 7 and 8, then to a government school, both also in the same region of Victoria. Claire is now 33. Claire, overall, do you think your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Not really. I'm not the school type of person. Yeah, tell us more. I'm more of a hands-on learner.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Me looking at a board and doing it is not how I learn, and that's how you're taught. Right. So it didn't agree with me, and back when I was there, I didn't get the help I could have got. Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So tell us a bit more about your school experience. Let's start with primary school.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Primary school, I was actually a fourth generation at Mongagi Primary School. As in four generations of your family all went. Yes. Right? Yes. So I always struggled in schooling from the age like grade onwards. I've always struggled. So I was diagnosed, I think it was early trial, early school was ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

So they worked that out, and then I could concentrate a bit better. I just lack concentration, and I always have. So how it's been taught is how I don't learn.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So if you were always feeling like you weren't great at school, did that impact how you felt about yourself? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah. Like I felt like I did feel worthless, like more like I'm dumb, I don't know how to do that. But other ways, like I was good at like my sporting.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yes. Like sport-wise and that kind of stuff, I could do. Academic, I was not there.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

How did you know that you weren't great at school?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Um, I struggled. I could like it was really hard for me to do it. So I just tell me more. I don't know. Like I've I kind of like put schooling in the back of my mind now. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I don't look back at it or anything now. It's I struggled, so I did the bare minimum as I had to to pass.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Okay, so if the teacher said do this task, you'd just go, what's the least amount I have to do to get them off my back and get out of the door? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Right. Is there a memory that you have about school that you could share? It doesn't have to be in the classroom, it might be in the sports field or a couple of memories.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Um, I did in primary school go get to state swimming. Oh, yeah, so race against people at Hailbury College. Yeah. Which was pretty intimidating, but it was pretty cool to get up there.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

What was the day like? What did you do?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Uh what do you remember? I think mum took us. There was like a couple of us, and we just went and swam.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, it was very intimidating. We were this tiny little school. There was like five of us, and every other school that was there, there was like heaps.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

So how did you feel after that?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

I felt pretty like it was pretty like confident boosting.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Especially at primary school doing that, especially so remote as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Did that change your self-image?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Um not really, because I was always like that popular kid. Oh, you were the popular kids? I was a popular kid, yeah. That's so funny. So I had like I was the I had lots of group of friends and I was friends with everyone. I was that kid.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

So even though your academic side of school was just like it's not working. Yeah, your social side of school was really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

I'm very social.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yay! Which probably led you to the sort of career that you came into. Yes, yeah. Um, did school prepare you for life, do you think? Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Right. Oh, we didn't talk about your secondary school. Let's hit that one first. Yeah. What do you remember of secondary school?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

That I never wanted to go. Oh, I would literally go to socialise, just see my friends, and that is all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So dragging yourself into every classroom was hard work.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I hated it.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Right. Yes. Anything that happened in the classrooms that made it better, worse? Why did you hate it? Can we get it?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Was more the workload, especially in secondary school, you're not as protected as primary school. So, especially for me reading in front of people, because I'm undiagnosed dyslexic for sure. Um, so me getting up in front of everyone and reading, that was traumatic for me. So I would always have a day off. If I knew that was on that day, I would not be at school. But there were certain teachers that would bring that back. Like, you weren't here, so you have to do that. So, like, I it was like, yeah, it's the school work, I would do it, but I would do the bare minimum of what I would pass because I did struggle and I didn't get any help.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

So, did you feel like you learned anything?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Um, no, not literally, not really. Right. Like, I can like do like math work and that, but the stuff that we learned at school, like algebra and that, I'm not I don't use that or anything anymore. So in year 10, we did one of our teachers was sick, so he was actually not at school for the whole term, and we got a teacher in who actually taught my dad. Oh, and he said, I'm gonna teach you what you need to learn in life for maths, and that is literally the only stuff. It was down the basic maths that we need, so what is what he taught. It was more like just general, like um, like working things out for like more like I can't even remember because that was so far away. Um, it was more like you go to a shop and like the change that you should give. Like that, right, like life skill maths. Yep. That is what we got taught.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So it wasn't really about taxes and those sorts of things, it was much more basic. It was basic. If you've got $100 in your wallet, what can you buy and what change will you get out of it? Yeah, did he actually do that countback thing that yeah, yeah, because that's an age group thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Do you do that now when you yeah, you do?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah. So that's probably out of my hole, like high school, I didn't get a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So it sounds like you actually connected with that teacher too. Yeah, like thank you for turning up.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, interesting. All right, let's jump into did school prepare you for life? So, what things do you use now that you learnt in school?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

I don't know. Ah, I I don't know. Um, they don't teach us how to do our taxes. I know they don't teach us how to get a business loan, they don't teach us how to get a house loan, right? They don't really teach you life.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

So they're things that you've had to learn since leaving school. Yes, and it's hard work, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Very and especially like I'm very lucky. I've my dad has taught me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

He's had his business for 36 years this year. So I've learned a lot from him with that. But as a new business owner, two nearly two years in, I've had a lot of stuff, and I'm like, what? I have to pay that.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Oh yeah, so it wasn't part of the initial budget, and you've kind of gone, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

It's a little bit more. I had the money there, and I'm like, oh, but you learn that stuff. So right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

So that's an interesting piece of the puzzle that you've been able to learn that because your father's been able to basically mentor you in it. It makes me think that people who don't have that connection within their family are really at a double disadvantage because school hasn't given it to them, they might not have that connection within their family and friends network. So, how do you even start to learn those skills about how to get along for a business, how to do a business plan, how to manage a mortgage, even? Yeah. Yeah, I completely understand. So we've talked about what you've learned since school and what you've needed in life to make life sort of work for you. Is there anything that you think schools could be teaching but aren't? So let's just put that in a package. Tell our education listeners what could schools be teaching?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I think they could be teaching more. The people aren't that aren't going to go to uni. There's a big population that aren't going to go to uni and want to do trades. Right. And they're not learning. For example, I've actually got a school-based, not an apprentice, like she comes two days a week from the school in Mongfagi and she's in year 12. Yep. Um, but the school, it's nearly term two, and the school is hasn't even contacted me.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, like they don't care. There's no care at all for anyone that's not doing VCE. That's what I find. And I think if the like if they want them to at least finish year 12, they need to put some effort into you're not gonna do your, you don't, you want to do more of a trade side, let's do other stuff than the VCE stuff. Like let's learn business. Like a business management course would be amazing for school leavers.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

There's been a change recently, and this is not my area of expertise, but there's been a change from Vcal to, I think they're calling it pathways, alternate pathways or something.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

VM.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

What is it?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

VM, I think one's called.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

I think that's what um my girl's doing is VM, it's called. I was like, what's VM? They're like, I don't know, it's what I do. I'm like, is it that's what my fecal was? Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

So I would have thought that in education there would have been more thought around that and more connection with that, but that's not your experience as one experience. Okay, what could be taken out of the school curriculum? I know it's a big topic. Um, because if we're going to put things like taxes in there, what would we be taken out?

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I don't even know. Um I'm I'm typing algebra earlier. Yeah, pretty like that type of stuff. Like algebra that, like you're not gonna learn that in light, like you don't really need it like much. Um, some people might use it, but general people don't. Yeah, that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

It is a hard one. It is a hard one. People in the education world find that a really, really hard.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

It is a hard one to be like, what can you get rid of? But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

But then if you know if you're saying you can't remember what you learned in the case, exactly and you're the maths that are isn't what you're gonna learn in life that you learn that you don't use.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yep. So, or even I don't even know.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Okay, let's leave it at that. What would you like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policy makers?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um, be considerate for people that struggle with school.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah, I was actually thinking in my head, I want to jump right back to the beginning again, in the sense that when you found out that you knew you had ADHD, what could teachers in the room and people around you, what changes could they have made that would have made any difference to you?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Not a lot, I don't think, but more like it takes me longer to do things.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Like like writing and reading, I'll just skip over because I don't want to be that last person to finish the book, or I don't want to be the last person because I'll feel like I'm behind everyone.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

So you're trying to mask where you're actually up to by pretending that you're actually on page six when actually you have only got through half page one, yeah, and then you've stared out the window anyway, and then you've that is me. Turn the book to page six and gone, look, I finished.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yeah, that's it. Just like summarise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

And then figured out that page how? How would you have figured out the learning so that you could get the task done?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Literally, I don't even know because I don't even remember how I like if it wasn't something that I wasn't interested in, I wouldn't, I'd be staring out the window. Or chatting, being the destructive one in this class.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

So, what you're telling me is the chatty ones actually need some attention from the teacher. Yes. Yeah. Alrighty. I get the message. Um, having talked about it today, do you now think that your 13 years in school-based education were well spent? No. Yeah, we're still on a no, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

No, still on a no. I I could have paid more attention as well. I know that it's not just the school, it is me as well. But why, like when I first started my high school, um, I was we were told that I'd have more help, but I didn't get any help. So I was just putting mainstream.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

So having that education support officer or something like that in the class. There was no one. Right. Yeah. So that's something that has changed for a lot of children.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

And I've noticed that. Right. There's a lot more, like, I'm not sure what they're called when they come into the class and help people. And there's nearly one or two in each class.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

There are these days. There was not one yeah, education support person or a support officer or something.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, like if there was one, if there was a support person, it was for someone with a disability.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

That was the only time you would we would see that in school.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah. So what's next for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Um, what's next for me is trying to keep growing my business. Yay! Yes. Um, I have got seven staff now. Well, six staff. I do work full-time too. Of course. So I've got seven stylists. I've gone from there was me and the previous owner, and that was the only staff we had. Yep. To growing it to seven people. Hooray! Yeah. So I just want to just get my name out there more and go for it. Yeah. Here it is. Go for it. Easier business. Let's get it. Um, I own I own Urban Hair and Wong Thagi. Um, I've been in the hair industry as soon as I left school, which was 16 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Um I do get my hair cut here and it's beautiful. I always rebook and re-book with Claire, and it's just a lovely experience. So if you're in this area and you need a haircut or a colour or anything to do with hair, give Claire a call at Urban Hair in One Fenty Volume, a little bit of business promotion.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Thanks for talking today. That's been fun. That's okay, it's been really good. Yeah. I I enjoyed it. Yay.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Claire did not think her years at School were well spent. She didn't think she was a school type of learner. She does not remember much of what she learnt and says she mostly went to school to be social. I found it interesting that she had a negative self-image in terms of academics, trying to mask the difficulty she was having by pretending to have completed something. She said her ADHD meant she needed more time, but rather than getting that need met, she would mask, pretending to get the task done in the same time as others. Instead of engaging, she sought the minimum requirement for a pass. While she said this impacted her sense of self, the sport arena, particularly getting into the state finals for swimming, and the social arena, where she was the popular kid, gave her a positive self-image. So it sounds like overall it balanced out for her. I can imagine Claire staring out the window and chatting with friends. As a teacher, I can see myself being frustrated that the learning that seems so important to me isn't getting through. But what Claire is telling me is actually she needs a different approach. She needs more processing time. She needs a different expectation of how many pages to read. An education support officer, or ESO, as they're now called, they used to be called teacher aides, probably would have helped Claire. However, the teacher could also probably have done more. I wonder who in my classes are chatting or daydreaming as a way to tell me to listen to their needs. There wasn't a lot that Claire learnt at school that she remembers, which matches the research quoted in Guy Claxton's 2008 book, What's the Point of School? Claxton explains that several years post-school, most adults have forgotten the content they learnt at school unless they are using it as part of their career or life. Obviously, Claire can read and has basic numeracy skills, otherwise she wouldn't be able to run a business. But the only piece she remembers appreciating learning was the maths teacher who filled in and taught them about maths related to shopping and life skills. Like many of our guests so far, Claire has highlighted skills learnt since school, focusing particularly around financial life skills. She mentions tax, budgeting, business loans, housing loans, and so on. It seems to be an emerging pattern that these are the skills that would be appreciated by our young adults. They are very teachable. I wonder what the obstacles are to embedding these basic financial skills into the curriculum at school. As I reflected during Claire's interview, Claire was able to navigate her way into a business because of her father's mentoring. I am very excited for Claire that she was able to move from a relatively poor school experience into a successful business. At the same time, I worry for the inequity for others in our community who might not have family or friends expertise to call on. If school doesn't offer these skills, what happens for these young adults? I hope in the course of the 13 Years Well Spent podcast that some people with these sorts of experiences might also join the podcast and tell their stories. Everyone's story is part of the picture. And I thank you, the listener, for giving 13 Years Well Spent the podcast your time. If you found it interesting, please let others know about it too. What in this episode resonated for you? What actions might you take as a result? I warmly invite educators or anyone to share their thoughts by emailing 13yearswellspent at gmail.com. That's 13 as a word, not a numeral, and all lowercase no spaces. Also, if you are between 18 and 30 ish and would be willing to share your story, please also get in touch via email. Thanks for listening. I hope you will tune into the next episode too. Bye for now.