Thirteen Years Well Spent
What was school like for you? This podcast chats to young adults about what, from school they use in life and what they have learnt since. In the cumulative stories of real people, lets find out if school is doing as it claims - prepare young people for life.
Thirteen Years Well Spent
5 Liam
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Liam thought his years in school based education were well spent, but not because he got good grades, because he had great friends that he still regularly goes camping with. Liam has some great ideas for how existing subjects like English and Maths could be re-mastered towards skills that are more relevant for life.
She got up the front and said, Look, is there anything you want to know that you feel like you don't know? Because we've got two or three weeks left. What do you want to know? And we all said taxes. Really? We all said taxes. I reckon if we didn't, I'd dunno where I'd be.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd be in big trouble, I think.
SPEAKER_02We spend 13 years at school. Is it well spent? This podcast offers a platform to school leavers to tell us about how their 13 years at school has or has not prepared them for life. Guy Clagston wonders if young adults would say it is 13 years well spent. My hope is that this might reach the ears of all of us involved with school-based education. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. Simply email 13 Years Well Spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we start, some acknowledgments. I acknowledge the Ganai Kernai and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary Wakeling, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least also to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us to understand and consider how these stories might mediate your thinking about school-based education. In this episode, we chat with Liam. Liam did think his years at the school were well spent, but not because of academic results. Liam defined success at school in terms of having the skills that set him up for his life, as well as the social success. He continues to be regularly connected to friends made at school. Liam went to primary school in a government school in rural Western Australia. For secondary school, Liam went to a Catholic school also in rural Western Australia. Liam is now 28 and he's joined me today in the beautiful South Gippsland weather. It is raining and the farmers are all very, very happy because the dams are finally becoming a bit fuller, right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's cool. So Liam, overall do you think your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?
SPEAKER_01I spent them probably more on the social side.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um the fundamental uh subjects I think I tried fairly hard in. Okay. Not necessarily succeeded very well, but other than that, no, I think it was pretty good. It was pretty good. Yeah, I would say more successful than unsuccessful.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02So when you say fundamental subjects, what are you thinking of?
SPEAKER_01Your English, your math, your core subjects that sort of will prepare you more for life than say maybe your sciences and stuff, unless you pursue something in that field.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Did you have a sense when you were in school which sort of direction you wanted to go in life?
SPEAKER_01No, I was completely lost up until grade ten, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I had no clue. I had dreams of doing university, but it very quickly became aware to me that I wasn't going to go down that path. Yeah, what sort of factors made that Um just the fact that whatever I wanted to pursue into university, I would need very high levels, and my grades and stuff were not meeting those criteria whatsoever.
SPEAKER_02So you sort of had a concept of what the ATAR was needed to be to get into the universities and the sorts of courses you were dreaming of, and that's not close to where you were actually up to.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02Did you consider other ways of getting into university? Because it's not just the ATAR and jumping out of school to get into university. Were those things that you thought about or knew about?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, I don't I think once that became aware to me I was pretty much steered direct directly in the other direction of doing the trade.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And uh I also had a bit of a liking of using tools and things like that, so it was 50-50.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But just at that age when you need a bit of direction, I it was just one turn of the steering wheel for someone to say go the other way. Okay, who was that? What did they say? That was my English teacher. She was she was really helpful, actually, now that I think about it.
SPEAKER_00Huh.
SPEAKER_01She sort of not like a mum, but she had a few students that you could tell she really wanted to succeed. Yep. That weren't necessarily the gifted ones that you knew were going to be fine. But me and a few others that, you know, just needed a bit of a polish up, and yeah, she really helped out just saying things that we probably needed to hear at the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what sorts of things that's this is the sort of gold that teachers need to know about because when it comes from somebody who's actually talking, it's different from reading it in a book that says, Oh, this research says blah blah blah, and it just goes straight over our heads. So tell us the gold. What did she say? Uh if you can remember.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, we're going back ten years now, but it was it was one of those things that she says at the front of the class, it was those ones that you'd take your side either in a group of two or by yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I don't know, it just has a little one-on-one, heart-to-heart with you.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And I I'd sort of gravitate to those conversations a bit more than just a big broad, you know, classroom or hall. You'd feel like you're getting spoken to with care.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and that's all it was, was she'd you know, she'd be able to look in your eye instead of just glancing over the top of your head.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you felt seen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. What yeah, I can't really remember the exact word she used.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's okay.
SPEAKER_01But it was just more the what do you call that? The the proximity of the conversation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So when that small change in the searing will happen for you, what were your feelings around that time? Were you disappointed? Were you what what was going on?
SPEAKER_01Uh as in not learning that I was going to get to go to university. Um, I suppose for the first couple of weeks I was a bit disappointed because that was all I had planned in my head. Right. I didn't know other routes were op options to me at the time, but I very quickly just got over it, I think. I knew I wasn't amazingly academic, so more schooling or the idea of more schooling was very daunting as as as well at the same time. So the fact that I didn't have to do that again.
SPEAKER_02So there was a certain amount of room to leave.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Because my I my dad hasn't got a trade, but he didn't go to university. Mum hasn't got a trade, didn't go to university. So I didn't really have anyone that went down that trade path to ask questions for about.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So the fact that I did eventually get to go there and all my friends got to do trades at the same time was really nice.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Before we go away from the university concept, just out of interest, what were you thinking of doing?
SPEAKER_01I wanted to do herpetology, so the study of reptiles and stuff. Ooh. Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Are you still a little bit into into snakes and animals?
SPEAKER_01All animals, oh anything but spiders. Anything but spiders. Uh no, I still have a uh very big um infatuation with them, and anytime we do holidays and stuff, it's straight to a reptile park or straight to a zoo or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's all just a hobby now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, fair enough, absolutely. And sometimes I really love my hobbies because I don't feel the pressure to perform in different ways. So hobbies to me, in in some ways, that might be even a sweeter spot to have landed.
SPEAKER_01I think so. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right. So please tell us a bit more about your school experience. Did you feel successful at school? How did you know? What memory could you share about school? What which teachers did you like and why? Any or all of those?
SPEAKER_01The teachers that I liked, I didn't like any at the start of high school.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, and the later years of primary school. Early years of primary school, I had some good ones. Um, high school as well. That's ones I can really remember. Sure. And that was the English teacher. Um, she was amazing. And I know I said science was probably not one of your better subjects, but our science teacher was awesome. She was on the younger side, so I felt like you know, there wasn't that big age difference where some of the other teachers were teaching from years ago, you know. And um they're they were coming to the end of their patience with kids, if you know what I mean. Right. Yeah, this is the she was a our science teacher, was a fresh teacher out of university and very excited to teach and learn and connect with the kids, so it was good. Um what was the other question, sorry?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there were a bunch of questions in there, so let's go one at a time. Did you feel successful at school?
SPEAKER_01Overall. Yes. Okay. Yes. Um, but oh, it's hard, isn't it? Because grades probably know if I look back at report cards.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But in terms of what I've learnt and what I'm using now, I feel like I have succeeded pretty good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01Um that's a really loaded question, actually.
SPEAKER_02I know. Um what was success what what does it mean to be successful at school? So you're sort of heading towards you got out of school what you needed in your life now, roughly speaking. Is that what you mean by success at school? Or so grades, you've already said grades is not really just the marker of success. So what else was there?
SPEAKER_01If school if you go to school to socialise and make friends and stuff, I think I've done really well there because everyone that I was friends with in my year group, I'm still friends with today, and we've got we've got holidays planned this year. We've done holidays every year since. Wow. Um so that aspect I really think I succeeded. And I don't know what else can you say about school, because if you're not, you know, academic, I don't think I probably succeeded.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so what I'm hearing is you weren't successful academically, but you passed.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, I got through.
SPEAKER_02You got through. You got out of school the things that you needed for your life now, and you got out of school some amazing friends. So in those senses, it was absolutely successful. What's a memory that you could share about school?
SPEAKER_01A memory from any lesson?
SPEAKER_02Any lesson, any part of school? Particularly things that are related to teachers and education and learning, because that's what most of us education people are mostly thinking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um again, I come back to my English teacher, she really helped me out. Um she yeah, she was good. Other than that, it was because it was a religious school. Actually, learning the religion part of it was nice. Okay. And our religious teachers were really good. Because I I'm I haven't got a background in religion. I didn't go to church as a kid, I didn't do any of that sort of stuff, but having that option was really eye-opening and seeing how that sort of belief system works and I thought it was really nice.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm gonna jump into that bit a little bit because I'm quite curious. I also work at a Catholic school. Um did you feel pressure to be any particular way or something through that religious education side of things?
SPEAKER_01At the time, probably not. I was, you know, just thinking about hanging out with me mates and being a you know social little bug, but now looking back, I would love to have studied that more.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's only been in the last couple of months that uh religion has sort of stood out to me a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02Hmm.
SPEAKER_01So what is it about that that's I don't know, just some sort of a core foundation that's inside yourself and that you can express that a bit more. Um and there's obviously gonna be hundreds and other pe hundreds of other people um doing the same thing. I don't know. But yeah, at school, the religion side of it, you had the kids that didn't care at all. But the teachers, they really drummed it in there because they had to. But me and a few others, we sort of listened, but probably should have taken it a bit more seriously.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Interesting. So you've talked about school preparing you for life. Can you tell us a little bit more about what are the things that you learnt at school that have helped you in your life now?
SPEAKER_01Obviously, your math and stuff, because I've run my own business now.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Trying to.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um obviously your math, really important there. English, and I do wish there was a I don't know, m like like a social sort of a business class. There was a business class, but it was university based, and I didn't think at the time that's where I was gonna go.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you didn't take the class or you did take the class?
SPEAKER_01No, I didn't take the class. Okay. Because I had no plan of being what I am now. Right. Being a butcher and running my own on-farm butchering and stuff, so probably wasted that opportunity, I reckon. But because a lot of kids took it without planning a business.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, looking back, I really should have done it.
SPEAKER_02Do you think something like that should be less an elective and more a core required piece?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Because the amount of people that you know go off and have the opportunity to run a business but don't know where to start, I reckon it slips by so many people. Yeah. So it should be like your math and your English and things like that, a core subject for sure.
SPEAKER_02Is there anything else that you've learnt since you left school that you figure actually it would have been cool to have got a bit of info from this at school? What do you use in life? What have you had to upskill in?
SPEAKER_01A lot of it's in me trade, because that's 90% of me life at the moment. Sure. But I'm trying to think now. Um, can you rephrase the question? Sorry, just a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. What's something that you've had to learn in life? And now you've learned it, you think, gee, I could have learned that at school.
SPEAKER_01Uh, right, I've got yeah, I see. Probably things socially.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Things that we just wouldn't touch on, so uh I don't know how to explain this. Is I'd okay. But going to people's houses doing me job and it's such simple stuff, you know, you just go in and say hi, how are you doing quotes and things like that? Um I I don't really know how to explain it beyond that without it sounding so simple. But there's some there must be it's probably an English class now that I think about it, but how to have conversations and not stutter along your words and things like that. But all I remember from English class is just your book reports and things. There wasn't the other parts that I actually there probably were. I reckon they were in the what do you call it? The I want to get it right. Because you got like the the advanced kids, they had like the really hard Englishers and the maths. The middle ground where I was at and they just do your book reports and watch your movies. Probably the lower class that they knew that they weren't going to do university. I reckon that's where they did the socialising aspect, and I think.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, I don't know. We'll have to talk to somebody who's been in those sorts of classes and see what they had to say. So you're you're really talking about the customer interface.
SPEAKER_01The Yeah, it's all right.
SPEAKER_02The way that you approach the customer so that they feel confident and trust you as a business person straight up. Um perhaps the email side of things as well.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I'm useless with that. Absolutely useless.
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think because I did careers class in school as well. I yeah, did not pay attention in that one either. So I think, yeah, if I had done that, would have been fine. But yeah, emails I don't reckon we touched a lot on. So sorry, I can't answer that one.
SPEAKER_02No, that's all of that is really part of the story. Not being able to answer it is just as much part of the story as giving me a really clear answer. So I really appreciate that. Okay. I think we've talked enough now about what schools could be doing but aren't doing in terms of preparing you for life. So, what would you like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policymakers?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I would say maybe could school classes be a bit more small as in terms of how many kids are in the class.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And I know there's a shortage of teachers and everything like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's definitely a money problem.
SPEAKER_01It is exactly. But I I think coming from where I come from, and if stu if the classes were maybe even half of what they are, instead of 30, maybe go to 15 or 10 or something, and just have the kids feel a bit more seen and a bit more heard, and there's a bit more one-on-one time. Because you've always got the kids that muck around and the teachers off with them trying to get them to behave. Whereas the ones that want to learn or need the help can't be seen because they're too busy over there.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and they do have to be, obviously. So I would like to see the classes maybe become smaller.
SPEAKER_02So ultimately, what you're looking for is more one-on-one time being seen as an individual in the room, and you recognise that teachers just struggle with doing that because the classes have to be the sizes that they currently are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's a lot of kids to take to look after for one person. And because I've I've got a brother that's autistic, he had a what you call it, an aide through his primary school. Sure. And she was amazing. She I think she's just retired actually. Uh she has helped him become verbal, um, learn to socialise in school. Yep. And you know, for go going back a lot of years now that my brother can now drive, he can work and stuff like that. And I really do think it's because he had that one on One time in with it because it's an aid. But if teachers can do that, I think kids would blossom a bit more and have a bit more kickstart in the future.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Is there anything in your school learning that you would take out of the curriculum?
SPEAKER_01Oh, quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01A lot of the math, I reckon. You know, you need your your simple things like your addition, your subtraction, and all that sort of stuff. And it's easy to say it to take stuff out when you don't use it. So there probably are a lot of careers that do use it, but I don't know, the ones with fake numbers that aren't there.
SPEAKER_02Algebra?
SPEAKER_01Is it algebra? The one with like the nth number and stuff like that. Oh, I I couldn't get that. And they put me down in the lower classes because they weren't using it there, and I felt like that's where I succeeded in math was doing the ones that I understood.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so what else could they probably take out? I don't think much more than I don't know, it's all past limit because different careers need it for different things. But I think the kids need to know what path they want to go down a bit sooner than year eleven and twelve. If they can sort of drum that into you by grade nine, I reckon. And just if you're going down a certain career path, you can not have them do parts of math and English and other sciences and stuff that they're not gonna use because it is wasted space in their head and they're just gonna feel like they're failing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you wouldn't take out English, for example. You'd you're like, keep English in, but a few less book reports and a few more about customer interface and emailing and some of those more practical life skills that are to do with language.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I'd I reckon that would be the way to go. Definitely. Because there was a so much of school that I did enjoy. But the when I started to enjoy it and feel like I was getting somewhere, then the next what do you call it? A chapter or something in the curriculum would be the complete opposite, and then I'd feel like I'm back down to square one.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_01Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02It does. So the content change with the unit changes just meant you felt like it's triple zero again and now you've got to build up again over that unit. Yes. Whereas if you had been able to get a sense of progress across a particular subject area than that is actually at the level that you were ready to work at, then you would have felt like, yeah, I've got my teeth into this and I'm feeling more successful.
SPEAKER_01Have I put too many words in your mouth? No, you've put the exact the right words, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, it's really good to hear that out loud, actually.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Amazing. So what's next for Liam?
SPEAKER_01At the moment, hopefully the business grows a bit stronger and I can start putting in employees and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that'll be a whole new bunch of maps and communication skills.
SPEAKER_01Because the whole taxing and the how to work out how to pay people, that's gonna be mind-boggling.
SPEAKER_02It is. Um, is that something that schools could do more of teaching about?
SPEAKER_01Actually, yeah, I reckon with that sort of stuff and they should do more of it. Absolutely. Do it instead of doing it for like three weeks, stretch it out. Actually drum into kids how important it is and how much of your life is going to be affected. Because I remember at the end of year twelve, we were because it was a Catholic school. We got to finish earlier than the kids in the public school. But what did we do? We had to still be in class and they had nothing to teach us.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So this is going back to the English teacher again. She got up the front and said, Look, is there anything you want to know that you feel like you don't know or we haven't touched on? Um, because we've got two or three weeks left, what do you want to know? And we all said taxes. We all said we all said taxes. And we only have to do it for again two or three weeks, but it was one of the last things we learnt in school, and I reckon if we didn't, I'd dunno where I'd be. Okay. Yeah, I'd be in big trouble, I think. Because there's still parts of it that I remember, and having to go through things with like a someone that does your tax returns and things, you sort of know what they're talking about, but I reckon we the last time we touched on it was grade 10 math by then.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. So grade 10 math is not where you need to have it so that you've got it ready to go when you actually leave school.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, have it right the whole way through, I think, just every single year. Mate, if it's in every single year, you know how important it is. Not just you know, three weeks out of a term.
SPEAKER_02It is a theme that seems to be beginning to come through in these conversations that people are saying.
SPEAKER_00Is it good?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Tax and basic um maths for life skills, like dealing with credit cards and what does that mean and and making informed choices around that and um being able to pay your bills on time, and what sorts of bills are coming in and why. Really, there's so many little details in that life math.
SPEAKER_01Also, going off that, that's just jogged me memory, is you know, when kids get their first jobs in the on the till and they're doing the money changing back, given change out, they do it all on the computer. Of course. That does I don't think it works because there's been a hundred times that I've been given the wrong change back and it's gone my way. Oh, okay. Yeah, I've been given way more back than I should have. And I think the kids are relying too much on the technology.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. What do you think they should do?
SPEAKER_01I think it just goes back to paper and pencil, really.
SPEAKER_02Do you know that old school way of giving change? So if something's fifty-eight dollars and you give me a hundred, then I count from fifty-eight back to a hundred.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I then give you the two dollars and say sixty, and then another twenty that makes eighty, another twenty that makes a hundred. So I'm counting it from Exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly how I learnt. And having to do it through butcher shops and stuff like that, you're constantly dealing with people and money. You'd need to be able to do it off the top of your head, because where I did my trade and time was in Nehum South.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And it's probably one of the worst spots I know of for power outages.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, here's pretty bad too.
SPEAKER_01So the amount of times of power would go out and knock out the digital scales, you've got the old-fashioned ones on hand just in case, and then you've got to be able to do the math either in your head or on the book on the like paper and pen. There was so many kids that can't do it. They would had to come and ask, like, this is just after school jobs, you know, okay, yeah. They would have to come out. Hey, what's he's giving me a hundred dollar note at $75, what's the change?
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01Simple math like that, you should be able to do.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sorry, go off my tangent.
SPEAKER_02No, absolutely. That is a really important tangent again. So I really appreciate your time today. I wish you all the best for your business. Do you want to give your business a plug while we're here?
SPEAKER_01Oh, if I can, yeah. Yeah, go for it. Bertelson On-Farm Butchering, uh, servicing all of Gippsland and everything in Victoria there. So thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it. It was actually really good to talk it out and bring back some memories. So I hope I've helped you out.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Every every person's story, no matter what it is, is definitely part of the picture. So I really appreciate you giving us time to put this together.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm glad. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02I really enjoyed speaking with Liam today. As a teacher, it's relatively easy for me to find young people who are connected with education in some way, whether they are children of teachers or teachers or education support officers. This skews the data. So being able to talk with a butcher this week and a hairdresser last week helps to create a more balanced picture. There is definitely a theme emerging from these 13 years well spent episodes around tax and life math. Which is often simply about counting change. Most of our guests are suggesting that these skills be taught at school as compulsory subjects. Many also mention that it is necessary to have this teaching in the last few years of school, where it's easier to recall as the young people begin their lives. Another theme emerging is about being seen. Liam's appreciation for his English teacher in secondary school was largely about her taking the time to talk with him directly, not in front of the whole class where she listened to his needs and thoughts. She was the first teacher he began to speak of and her suggestions to him about a career twitched the steering wheel, in Lam's words, towards the butchering career that he is now successful in. Liam was clear that he wants teachers, leaders, and systems to find ways to make it possible for teachers to have the time to see and hear the individual people in their rooms. It is a call to action for education. While Liam did not see that any subject might be removed from the school curriculum, he was very interested in increasing time in the English subject around communication skills. In particular, the customer interface where you simply learn how to greet customers in ways that immediately sets up a relationship of trust and skills in business email. To create a space for this less book report was Liam's suggestion. Finally, I was curious about Liam's interest in religion growing from the learning he had at the Catholic secondary school. I think it's important for faith-based schools to hear that it might not just be during the school years that the dialogical invitation to consider faith influences a person's life. Liam talked about a core foundation that's inside yourself that you can express a bit more. I'd like to thank Liam again for his candor and his ideas and wish him well in his butchering business, Birthlesson on farm butchering servicing all of Gippsland and Victoria. And I thank you, the listener, for giving Thirteen Years Well Spent, the podcast, your time. If you found this interesting, please let others know about us too. What in this episode resonated for you? What actions might you take as a result? I warmly invite educators or anyone to share their thoughts by emailing thirteenyearswellspent at gmail.com. That's thirteen as a word, not a numeral and all lowercase no spaces. Also, if you are between eighteen and thirty-ish and would be willing to share your story, please also get in touch via email. Thanks for listening. I hope you will tune into the next episode too. Bye for now.