6 Christian Williams

This is the first of our educator episodes. The aim is that every five episodes an educator and I chat about the previous guests stories, bringing our perspectives, experiences and actions. In this episode Christian and I notice the incredible variation in the five stories so far. We reflect on the connection, ATAR, competition and life skills. And, I reveal a hatchling plan, seeking feedback from you whether you are in education or not.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:13

Was the 13 years or so that you spent in school well spent? The idea comes from Guy Claxton, who on the E triple R, the Education Research Reading Room, asked, would our young people say that it was 12 years well spent, being the British education system? And I really wondered, would our young people in Australia say it was 13 years well spent? So now we've spoken with five guests to find out what their school was like, what that meant to their lives. This one is a conversation with another educator to reflect on what those people have said and how that might impact our own teaching and what ideas might it spark. It sparked a big idea for me. So listen in and find out what that is. If you just like a cameo in the pieces from Bella, Grace, Jonathan, Claire, and Liam, just to get a little bit of a sense of what it was in their words that we were talking about throughout our conversation, that's available at the end. And if you've already listened to it, then just skip that bit and listen to the next episode. I hope this helped round out the whole of the concept of doing 13 years well spent. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages. But this is not about me or any of the organizations I am have been or might in the future be associated with. And if you would like to share your story at 18 to 30 feet, please email me 13 Years Well Spend at one word with 13 is a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Similarly, if you are an educator and you would like to share your reflections, your perspectives on anything related to this, especially if you happen to have some research or some particular experience that might inform some of this conversation, again, please get in touch with me. So before we get into this episode, I would like to acknowledge the Gunai K and I and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate their knowledge and stories and those of all First Nations people, and thank them. And I would like to thank my partner Gary for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leaders who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us. And please do share it with others so we might all consider how these stories might mediate our thinking about school-based education. Okay, let's get into it. I am so excited today to chat with Christian. Christian and I met at the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership doing the Teaching Impact Fellowship last year. Christian is a dynamo. He brings so much energy to the space. He keeps calling me legend, which I completely do not think that I belong with, but I appreciate it. I always just get that little bit of a chuff every time you say that word of okay, I'm gonna I'm moving into the legend space, which I really am not, but you know, it helps. So, Christian, would you tell us about your background and who you are and what you bring to this conversation?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Well, first off, thanks for the invite. This is such a cool podcast, and I love the approach that you take in interviewing young people, just asking them some really important questions about life that you know they may have never been asked. And this is it's really exciting for me to be able to listen to the perspective of others. So I'm stoked to be here. You are a Dead Set legend. I'm you know very privileged as a teacher that I was part of the Teaching Excellence program, and I've got to connect with a lot of amazing um teachers from all across the state. And it was pretty humbling to be part of that program with yourself. And yeah, I just love teaching. I've been doing it for 18 years now. I've taught uh prep all the way through high school, uh public schools, Catholic schools, independent schools. Yeah, just love it. I teach uh digital tech at the moment at MLC in Kew. It's awesome. Never thought I'd end up teaching at a girls' school, but I've been doing it for nearly 10 years now. I suppose coming from a family with seven little sisters, it was maybe it was destiny, I don't know, but absolutely love the space that I'm in. And it's a bit crazy, right? Being a teacher for this long. I've seen a lot, you know, a lot of changes, but I honestly could not imagine myself doing anything else. And yeah, just loving every day, just being in the classroom having fun with kids.

SPEAKER_07 5:11

That is so cool. I hope so many more teachers relate to that too. I hope they're just listening and going, yeah, of course, that's why we're in the job. And there's things that we complain about as well, of course, as teachers, but we just do what we can do and we look at those positives so much. I think the whole idea of assuming positive intent is just really, really easy with teachers because you know that's what their background is. Even if you don't agree with something that's happening, there you can absolutely assume positive intent, and that's a really nice place to be. So you've had a listen to the podcasts. I really appreciate that. That's quite a bit of listening time. So that's a fair time investment that you've already given to us to make this conversation work. What are your initial impressions just overall from those pods?

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Well, there've been four really different perspectives, you know. And the first thing it brought to my mind is that anytime we talk about education and our experience as teachers or the experience of students, there's just so much variance, and you you can't make generalization. I know there's a lot of research that shows there's such a great deal of variance in student experiences within a school, let alone within a region or a state and across primary to secondary. And I love the 18 to 30-ish, it kind of makes me feel it's like, you know, I'm not that old. It's it's you you've got a really broad perspective. And I think that the more that we go through this process of asking these questions, you're gonna get even more experiences. And the the more of those stories that we hear, we can we can some of these um aspects of the stories you can relate to. Like I I related to you know, some of the things that Grace was talking about, not being engaged, because I was at a in an accelerated program at a you know, uh, I suppose you could say it's philanthropy school. And but then I go out Lou Jonathan and not being engaged, you know, as being as a as a teenage boy, you know, yeah, I'm loving literature class, you know. And then but also the you know, Claire's perspective, talking about you know, vocational education, even though I didn't do that myself. So for me, it's really good to have a broader reference of what a student experience has been, and that helps me as a teacher and hopefully you know every other teacher listening to understand that yeah, whatever the context we're in, that's not the only context, I suppose.

SPEAKER_07 7:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I I've been a languages teacher, so one of the privileges or frustrations of being a languages teacher is you end up often being part-time and being in several schools. So I get to see quite a few different schools, and I've had a bit of experience across more rural and more metropolitan and all sorts of things. Um, yes, there's there's differences in schools, and you can end up in your own school bubble with your own cohorts that come through with a similar similar socioeconomic group. But even within that, there's so much diversity. And one of the inspirations actually for this whole podcast for me was when we had a person with a neurodiverse background come into the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership to talk about their experience in languages from a neurodiverse perspective. And this person loved languages, they really, really connected in with languages, but because they were an adult, they were able to explain things that maybe the students in the room are not ready to have a perspective on so that they can get those words out and really get that information to you as a teacher. Obviously, talk to your children because that student voice, that student perspective in any classroom at any time is just so important. But I really think that the adult perspective of articulation and looking back from having some experience in life, that's why I chose that 18 to 30 group. And then I also chose 18 to 30 because I didn't want it too far away from the literal school experiences that are happening now. Schools change and evolve over time. So I wanted it to be as close as possible to what we're doing in school at the moment so that that information is more relevant. So you talked about the diversity of things. Um, what sorts of pieces of diverse experiences jumped out for you?

SPEAKER_03 9:48

How about we just start from the start? So who do you have first? We had Bella. So one thing that stuck out uh that I took away from that conversation was that for a young person, 13 years, that's potentially you know half of their lifetime. And that sometimes as a as a teacher, I know so much of our curriculum or what we are trying to do is to you know layer and scaffold knowledge or skills or expertise to the next level. And I think for me that was an opportunity to take a step back and say, okay, cool. Well, if we're looking at this holistically, uh at that this is you know a child that's spending a qu potentially a quarter of their life at a school, that surely within that period of time that we would be able to talk about happiness and preparing kids to understand that that this is a phase of your life, but we if you never continue formal education, we need to make the most of these years to give you as many tools as possible to navigate the rest of your life, not to just prepare them for the next level for year eight or year nine or uni or your masters. So again, I I don't have an answer, I don't even have a question out of that. But it was just a it was a a a good thing for me to put in the back of my head to think, okay, cool. Well, if I look at my year seven kids, maybe there is a time and a place for me to be having these some of these conversations, and hopefully my colleagues will be having them too. So if you're having these casual conversations about you know, what is the meaning of life, and like what are you actually going to do with your life to be happy, or how how can you find happiness, how can you find joy at times when life's really hard, when you know you might have a loss in the family, you've lost a pet, or all of the really significant life events that young people go through. If we can be keeping, you know, looking for the moments that we have with our young people to to give them some guidance towards you know living a happy and fulfilling life, yeah, these are the things that if you have them in the back of your mind, you'll you'll it's top of mind. So, as an example, like this week I I had a conversation today when my kids like her grandparents uh live overseas in a war zone, and it's just checking in, like in the in the corridor, just stopping and say, Hey, how are your grandparents? And and the girl was like, Well, we've been able to talk. Up until last night, we went we'll we were we'll be able to you know talk on the phone, which is which is huge because for a long period of time the the internet was down and they they couldn't connect.

SPEAKER_07 12:18

Oh, I've got shivers. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

And she was like, Thanks for asking. And like that didn't take me any time. I didn't even prepare that, but I just I know this kid, and she's probably she's gone through a lot of things at the moment.

SPEAKER_07 12:33

Yeah, amazing. What a lovely thing to do for her.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

So yeah, but a lot and again, I'll I'll I'll jump through pretty much every guest you've had so far has talked about one teacher that had you know the connected, made that extra effort to engage in conversation and see a student as a person. Yeah, not not just another name on the roll. And I think by having as many of these conversations as possible with our kids, you pick up things. It's like, oh, cool. I remember, oh, you know, you just had a cheerleading competition on the holidays. Like I know where it's like you might be in the middle of term and you might only just remember, but remembering something late is better than never. So having that memory bank of all these small details and conversations, and it can be really hard. And as a specialist teacher, you know, if you're teaching 200, 300 kids, you're not gonna remember everything. But if the that you've had on your podcast can only think of maybe one teacher, if you could be that teacher for one kid a year, that's huge. What if you could do it for one kid a term? These are the types of things that um really they are realistic. And if every one of us as teachers said, you know what, I'm just gonna I'm gonna try and just have like an authentic conversation once a week with any kid. 40 weeks a year, that's 40 really could potentially deep and meaningful and memorable connections with kids. So we don't have to think about these things as oh my god, I I don't have time for this, you know, I've got AER duties this week and I've got a you know a full teaching load. Like, how am I supposed to have this conversation? It's like you probably won't be able to do with all your kids. But it's okay. If you can do it with a few, and everyone else in the staff room does it with a few kids they could connect with, all of a sudden you're reaching a huge number of kids over a long period of time. And again, when we go back to that 13 years, if you're a primary school teacher, you're gonna see the same faces in the playground for years potentially. Like I'm a high school teacher, so the kids that I taught in year seven, they might be in year nine, year ten. Now, I can still have an impact on them, even if I don't teach them. Yeah, you could be on the bus on the way to swimming sports, that's when you could have a really meaningful conversation. It could be literally when you check in uniform, like at the front gates, that's another opportunity. You you're getting paid to be on your yard duty anyway. You might as well have a, you know, some some a real connection conversation with kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:03

So I so I so agree with all of the things that you're saying. And I think we trip up as teachers, as people in education, because so much of our sense of um definitions of success is student outcomes. And those outcomes tend to be ultimately measured in some sort of test slash rubric, slash, can you do this? Can you level up? Like you were saying earlier. And every single one of the people so far, Bella Bella put it so succinctly. She talked about thinking that success was about money and being better than other people. So that competition in school really impacted negatively her sense of happiness and her sense of success now being defined in terms of her happiness. I think if we can just relax as educators a little bit on the success definition as outcomes and just bring in the humanness of our interactions with these young, growing people who are evolving into their own identities, it makes such a difference. I heard somebody say, again, very succinctly, be that teacher.

unknown 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 16:21

Exactly what you just said.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Yeah. But isn't it interesting though? Like, I totally agree with you said, but then Jonathan's perspective, which I could kind of relate to as well, so that he one of the things that he really enjoyed the most about school was the test. And I think that there are a lot of kids that actually love that. Yeah. Yeah. They love winning. I know me. Like, no one wants to play ping-pong with me because I'm obsessive, and like I'm just gonna not gonna stop until I win because I gotta win. Doesn't matter, doesn't matter what. And a lot of kids have that competitive drive. It can be really confronting and and and and stressful being in an environment where we are always testing and measuring and and ranking. And then some kids actually enjoy that, they embrace it. So again, it's just what what what we're looking at is we're dealing with kids and they're all different, and they all have different perspectives. So yeah, I just thought that was that was a a really fascinating thing for me to think about. Because again, I I know I you know the least favorite part of my job is you know, marking assessments and that and then having to like yeah, to do all that and to think with all the pressure that we put on kids to prepare for year 12, and then the experience that I see of of year 12 is going through it, even my own kids, yeah, how stressful that is. And then then to realise about maybe some kids enjoy that too. So I don't know. I was I think that's the why.

SPEAKER_07 17:43

What did you think of Jonathan's perspective on ATAR as not being the most important thing? But how school, um, I think Bella mentioned too that school really spends a lot of time pressuring children to do their best on the ATAR, and uh secondary schools are set up for that pinnacle test. But then you walk out of that and you've still got a life. You've got another 60 or 70 years of your life to go. So, where what's your thought on that part?

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah, and I I I really resonated with that, and it's something that you know I've seen, you know, I've got seven younger sisters. One of my sisters is a great example, didn't get didn't get a higher ATOR at all. She wanted to be a DJ, didn't take course to you know bet go on local radio. That didn't turn out as a viable career path, so she moved to Europe. And while she was in Europe, she became a disability support worker, fell in love with it, came uh to back home as a mature age student, and you know, studied occupational therapy. Now she's doing she's killing it in life, and you know, she works at you know a couple hospitals, do a huge amount of good, and she's really happy, and she loves it. And she wouldn't have been able to get in that course, you know, straight out again. But it doesn't matter. She just she just took a path, following the things that she was interested in. And you know, I absolutely you know love that example and shared to my kids that doesn't matter what your ATA is. Um, she was a school captain, she was an amazing young person, but it wasn't reflected in her numbers. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's no need for us to be pressuring kids, you know, in probably one of the most important times of their life to form friendships and and a social circle that they can carry with them for the for their rest of their life.

SPEAKER_07 19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

And ask them to sacrifice these opportunities to create memories, create connections, you know, go and all these parties and things that are opportunities for kids to form bonds that all last a lifetime. But we're telling them, no, you've got to study three, four hours a night for an exam on something you're gonna forget anyway. Yeah, so you can get into uni straight away at 19 and look at the stats, you're probably gonna drop out at 20.

SPEAKER_07 19:53

Yeah. So somebody like Claire was talking about her social connections. She was the popular kid, and she went to secondary school, in her words, to socialize. She was not interested in doing any of the work. Um, it seems that she was dyslexic and undiagnosed until later in life. But um she just did that minimum. She was always masking, she was always just cruising along so that she didn't create too many conflicts with the teachers. But she was there for the social things. And when you think about Bella's thing about we're looking for happiness, we're looking to define our own personal success. It worries me too. I'm jumping a little bit here, but it really worries me that not only do schools define their success as a school on their eight-hour results and how many people passed, how many people got different percentages and things. Schools will also look at how employable are people after they leave school. So there's research around employability. What do employers want? What are the skills that we as a school system should be helping develop in our young people so that they become employable? Employability is only one part of life, too. And so it sort of goes round in this circle, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Yeah, and it's look, we think about the what is the responsibility of a teacher? Is it to prepare your kids to get a university? Is it to prepare them to be you know a fully functioning, you know, capable member of society, or are we there to you know help them find out who they are the world is? Is it all of the above?

SPEAKER_07 21:39

Is it a it is there are so many um you know things exactly, and that's part of the headache of being a teacher is you feel like the whole of the prep preparation for life is sort of on your shoulders, and whenever young people are not something something, let's do it in education, and it's really hard when that happens. So, yes, the community has. To be part of a child's upbringing. And when I say child, I mean right through to 1821. But not all young people have access to the sort of information and the sort of interpersonal understandings and all sorts of different things that you would hope for any person in society to be happy, fulfilled, satisfied, engaged, productive. Yeah. So in some ways, we can't just wait for the families to do that because that is also creating inequity. I'm going to jump into a different conversation, if that's all right with you.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

You're the boss.

SPEAKER_07 22:50

I'm interested in what some of the guests said about what they have had to learn after school, and they really would have appreciated a little bit of a heads up in school. So it's things around life skills, things like how do you do tax, what's tax about, politics. Grace gave a really nice list, Jonathan gave a really nice list, Claire was more about the business, um, building a business and things like that. Um somebody else was talking about actually it's Liam. I'm not sure if you heard Liam's one already, because Liam is the next one. So if you yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

So I don't think Liam's, but I will pick up straight on what Grace said. And I remember she was talking about the things that she wished we'd talked more about, like voting in government. But then also, yeah, her point was, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but teaching these types of things to kids, you know, in grade five, in grade grade six and seven, when they're in the curriculum, you know, everyone goes on a school excursion to Canberra or you know, talk to your local MP, what's the lower house and the upper house? Yeah, you're likely to forget it. And that is a that is a valid point. But also, a lot of what we do as teachers is you have to drum in the basics for years and give kids the opportunity to forget these things. And it's the recall of facts and the recall of processes that embed learning. So, yeah, maybe it that it doesn't sink in at grade five, but you've got a better chance of it sinking in at year seven because you've done it again. And if you have that conversation again in year 11 and now you have a more relevant context, then it can really sink in. But there is definitely some, you know, uh, she had a really valid point about um what's the word I'm searching for? That are mandated in a primary school career, so I think they're five and six about civics and citizenship. Maybe they would be better served in year 11 and year 12 when they are when kids are about to vote as opposed to when it's you know when it works to go out of school camp to Canberra.

SPEAKER_07 25:01

Yeah, exactly. And I'm I'm sure it ideally both, both and. So that sense of civ civics and citizenship and going to Canberra, it's a little bit of an introduction into the politics of our country and a little bit of an introduction to how it works. But the 18-year-olds or 17-year-olds ready to come into voting, they want to know how the voting works. They want to know what is an upper house and a lower house, and why is there this big long piece of paper on one side and then this little tiny piece of paper on the other side? And any wonder we're so um influenced by the voting cards because it's really hard to make your own choices and to actually engage with policies and build your own belief system if you haven't had a go at understanding how the system works in the first place. It seems not that hard to do.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

No, and look, I'm gonna go in another direction. And one thing that I think Jonathan mentioned was the fact that kids get steered away from choosing the subjects that they really enjoy because they might not be good at it. And if we there's so much pressure for kids to get a grade eta, if you're really if you're not good at art but you love it, are you gonna choose it? Uh uh your parents and the people that and teachers that just want the best for you, are they gonna steer you towards better marks and a better, you know, potential future, or to follow your passions that might get you know really low marks. And then again, you might have kids that actually really care about these things, but they're not gonna choose these subjects because that there's too much pressure at home to be a doctor, be an engineer, or any of these type of things. So I get there's there's no answer. The more you listen, the more questions you have, and the more conundry you have as a teacher to say, well, well, what am I supposed to do? Like the you can't fix everything, and and but then you just what I think is important.

SPEAKER_07 27:07

So I'm beginning to develop a bit of a big, hairy, audacious goal, to use the good to great Jim Collins quote. And tell me if you can see that this potentially in the future might work, because schools are pretty tightly held with what we do do in the curriculum and what might be possible. But Jonathan was really clear. He suggested a half an hour a week of a life skills class. And I've heard that sort of suggestion before, somewhere in the 9, 10, 11, 12 space. And I'm beginning to develop this idea in my head, which it will iterate, it won't be exactly the same as it is today. But the idea in my head at the moment is that the young people in the room help to influence what it is that we're teaching. So things like tax, I think would be something that would interest children of 14, 15, 16, because they can potentially begin earning at that stage and enter the workforce. So tax, um, politics, how the political system works, what voting is, why have you got such a great big long form for the Senate, um, why it is so much easier to get into, to get elected in the Senate with a much lower percentage of the vote, all sorts of details like that. But also things like how mortgages work, how to do a budget, and then putting the finance and the maths sort of life skills aside, I would be really interested in adding in things like what do you look for when you go and buy a car? And what sorts of maintenance might you anticipate when you do have a car that you need to plan for? And similar for buying a house, but and then really, really basic things like in a household to make it function, what are the jobs that people do in that house to make it set up? And who does those jobs? And just thinking about those sorts of things, like all sorts of little bits and pieces of life skills. If you are unemployed, how do you go about getting onto some sort of employment benefit? I don't know, there's so many little pieces to the puzzle of life that if the children, I keep saying children, I really do mean young people, if the young people were able to have some input and say, this is what I want to learn, and in my beautiful big, hairy, audacious goal, it is also young people who are teaching those teenagers what those life skills are. So sort of creating a video series, I suppose, of a life skills class, which would take up about half an hour a week, year nine through to year 12, absolutely compulsory. It's a blunge class, if you like, because there's no particular assessment that necessarily comes from it. But I I just reckon that would work.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Yeah. It's a great idea. But here's the thing you don't actually need anyone's permission to go ahead and do that. Like, it's a great idea. Just try it and see if it works. And I think, and I'm gonna speak, you know, as an experienced teacher here.

SPEAKER_07 30:39

Yeah, that's why I've that's why I wanted to talk to you.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah, like it's an amazing idea, but too too often in education, um, teachers, amazing ideas just like that, get discouraged because we are trying to fit them in the wrong box. Yeah. A great idea does not have to fit into a curriculum. It can just be a great idea that is going to have an impact on kids. So do it. And I'm gonna go back to one of the questions that you've asked everyone is like, what would you, you know, what would you take out of the curriculum? What would you change? The answer is not changing the curriculum. Sometimes the answer is just doing it and just finding a way to fit it in. And I'm gonna give some examples because I don't want to you know discourage you or any other teacher that has a great idea just like that. Is there anyone that's taught in a primary school has probably seen the value of having prep in year six buddies?

SPEAKER_04 31:31

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Is that in a curriculum? No. Oh, good point. You do it, you find time for it because it's important. Yep. School assemblies are not in a curriculum. But if the sch if you value that as a school, you make time for it. There are so many things that as a community of teachers or administrators, if you think it's important, you're gonna find a way to fit it in. You know, do we really need to have inter-school sport or inter-house competitions in senior schools? No. But if you value that as a community, you make it happen and you find the time for it.

SPEAKER_07 32:10

That is so interesting. I hadn't thought about those aspects of school life that are not necessarily written down in a curriculum.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

So this would be my advice to you and to anyone else that that is is frustrated or sees a need and they want to m take action and make a change, is to just find somewhere where you can fit it in. You don't have to change the curriculum, you don't have to change the system. If you've got a great idea that you is gonna hit with your community or your class or your year level, just do it. Just find a way to fit it in. Every single teacher will know that you have to like 10 minutes on a Friday afternoon, the class is a mess. Like, you've got to clean it up. That's not in your lesson plan, that's not in your curriculum, but you've got to get it done because that's a big value.

SPEAKER_07 33:02

I am making a shout out to anybody who's listening to contact me and tell me, yes, I would use this sort of resource if it existed. Andor if you would like to be involved with developing something like this, it is a big project. I mean, yeah, just do it is a little bit too uh easygoing for me. But if I've got a little bit of feedback from our community who are listening to this sort of podcast to say yes, I would use it, andor that I would help create some content for this, especially the young people, because I think it needs to be young faces in that content. A 60-year-old lady who's been teaching for as long as I have is just not going to cut it in terms of relevance to somebody who's 14 or 15. But but I think that would be really cool. So I'm I'm pulling it out there. You tell me, should I do my big audacious goal or not?

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Yes. Yes, 100%. But and I'm gonna go back to what I said, and I don't say like, yes, go for it, and then that's it. My philosophy in saying that to you comes from a guy that actually met a conference who's a legend, his name's Shugata Mitra. Um, he was a professor in the UK, and he said this random idea in a rural village in India. He just gave kids computers that'd never seen them before, and he just put them in a village with like soul power, just let them figure it out that they would be able to learn some cool stuff. And he said the most val, and I'm paraphrasing, yeah. So the most valuable teachers in that community were the grandmothers that just sat in the background over the kids' shoulders. That looks good. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds good. It sounds good. And sometimes that the most uh validating thing you can do for a young person or you know, a teacher is just be that grandmother over the shoulder, has no idea what you're talking about. But you're just giving some positive vibes to say, yeah, that looks that sounds great. And if you can be consistent in that positive affirmation, and when someone, because I'm sure if you choose to follow this path, just like any other teacher, you get three weeks in, you're gonna be tearing your hair and go, Oh my god, man, what did I get myself into? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. How long I do it. If you have that supportive person, say, you know what, still do it, still keep going. Maybe just chunk it down a little bit. Maybe just try like one lesson instead of a hundred. Like, I don't know what the answer is, but it's having that consistent reinforcement that keep going. Yeah, you can do it. So my advice, what I say to you now is absolutely just do it. Like have a go. And that's what my advice will be, you know, a month from now, when it becomes really hard or it might seem over ambitious, but yeah, still keep going. Yeah, go for it. Because the more that we have a go, these when projects or innovations or these ideas that we have as teachers, they may not go anywhere. But then you've just got all of this extra stuff in your head that will be valuable, it will be relevant next week, next year, when you're in a meeting, when you get thrown into you know a situation where you've got to teach a class that you you've never done before. All that work and brain space and research that you've put into one project can be transferable. So these big hairy audacious goals, yeah, you've got to go for them. Because even if you fail, you're still gonna have learnt or come up with more ideas and have things just floating around in your head that are gonna come in handy later. So absolutely go for it.

SPEAKER_07 36:43

I absolutely can't do this by myself, though. I really, really will need a community, a team. So um today is my first day of really articulating the goal and asking people to put their hand up and make a start to help me to make a start on a team to potentially make that happen. But as a secondary teacher in a secondary school at the moment, give me a clue. If you knew that there was something like this, is there a way that you would be able to bring this into the lessons that you teach?

SPEAKER_03 37:20

If I'm a secondary school teacher, I've got an hour a week, right? Because I teach digital tests. I got one lesson. I'm a maths teacher, I might have three peers a week. You know, I mean English teachers further. So how do I how do I find time? How would I do it? I'd use my home group because I have a pastoral care role as well, and I have that flexibility where you know we might be spending time on relationships or writing report reflections, or in these that's not in my class, but it's the it's FaceTime that I have with kids. So as a secondary teacher, I'd be looking for any FaceTime that I have. And maybe I don't have enough time to watch a video, but I have two minutes at the end of a lesson to say, hey guys, by the way, I don't know if you've got anything planned over the weekend, but I just came across this amazing video series. It's really cool, it's by young people. Check it out. You know, on the bus, on the way home, check out this podcast, check out this five minutes video, I'd love to talk to you about tomorrow. Two kids might might do it. Okay, if two kids watch a video, you've got a great discussion point with two kids. So if I was as a secondary school teacher, I'd be looking for what's the the small the what's the minimum that I can do? If I can't fit in a lesson, if I can't fit in a curriculum, can I give a shout out? Can I, you know, can I email kids to say, hey, hey guys, just found this awesome clip. That takes three or four minutes. Is it in my curriculum? Nope. Is it a good is it something that I believe as a teacher is gonna have a positive impact on my kids? Yep. So is there anyone telling me that I can't do that? No. But can I justify the value in doing that? In my professional opinion, I'm sharing a resource with my kids to inspire them and connect with the kids in my class that I know. So there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to do that. So is there a reason why you shouldn't be able to share a valuable resource that's age appropriate? It's, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. If there's no reason for you not to do it, then why not?

unknown 39:18

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Being able to say, you know what, a big hairy, audacious goal is just a series of steps that you can accomplish. And even if you don't know where what all the steps are, if you just take any step in any direction, you are closer than you were before.

SPEAKER_07 39:35

That brings me to another thought. And I think one of the problems that we have as teachers in education is nobody's making it clear what our actual North Star is, because there's so many North stars that we get pulled towards, apart from the actual outcomes star. One of the things that Guy Claxton talks about a lot is that rather than teaching content, we will teach content. It's not, it's not let's take content off the table by any means. But the important part that we're teaching when we're teaching content, and Jonathan talks about this, is not the content itself, but the skills that are involved in learning that content. So Jonathan was talking about the problem-solving skills that are being learnt when you're doing mathematical problems. And Guy Claxton says if we could put on the board, and even in our minds, that what we're teaching when we're teaching this content is the skill of investigating how are we going to learn something in the future. So, what do adults do when they learn? And Guy Claxton's got in his book Um, What's the Point of School, he's got a great big list. What do adults do? They go and talk to another adult. They go and use their existing networks to move into more information so that they can build their knowledge. And that's what I'm doing when I'm doing a podcast. I've I've not understood very much about Audacity, except you can click the button, you can make a recording, you can save it, and then you can send it to somebody. Awesome. But now I've got a little bit of a sense of how I can process that recording so that the sound is more even and the highs and lows are chopped out so that it doesn't pop and do odd things that are just annoying to listen to. All of these sorts of skills, you you read, you um try stuff out, you make mistakes, you go again. Um I don't know, it's all of those skills that I think I definitely use in life still, that he's saying is really what we should be teaching in school. So, what is your thoughts on that one?

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Me, that just comes back to, you know, like full-on research mode. It's pretty much like what John Hattie and those guys are saying about learning intentions. It's like you're giving a context to what you're gonna deliver. And sometimes we take these things too literally, is that you have to write a learning intention and a success criteria for everything. And yes, that is important, but it can be as simple as, hey guys, I know you're not gonna love this lesson we're doing on Excel. And you might think that this is boring and you're never gonna do it again. But why are we doing this? Because I want you to be able to walk into any challenge you face in life and say, you know what? I'm not gonna enjoy this. I don't know how to do it, but I can get through this because I've had experience throughout my schooling of doing things that I that look hard, look impossible that I've never done before, and I got through them. And this might be one of those days for you where we've got to get, we've got to do it. You might not see the relevance relevance now, but you've got to trust me that I'm asking you to do this task, and I know it's gonna be hard, but you're gonna come out the other side of this with a new skill that you didn't have before, and you're gonna be able to do this again and again because you know that you can do hard things, you know that you can figure things out for yourself by clicking on all the buttons, finding a YouTube tutorial, asking your friends, having a go and seeing what works. So let's do this together and see what happens. I just verbalized the learning intention. I didn't write it down, but I am able to explain. Look, we gotta do it. And you can do that like hey, I know you don't want to clean the classroom right now. I know you did not did not make this mess. Okay? This was the French kids, 100%. This is our class, all right? This is our classroom. And we need to take you know responsibility for this and do what we can, and we're gonna clean up the mess. Not fair, but you know what? This is part of life. Sometimes you have to clean up other people's messes because it's the right thing to do. And it's not fair for the cleaner to walk in here when the bell goes and say all this mess, because that's not their job. This is our space, we're gonna take responsibility, we're gonna clean up the mess. It's just having in your in the back of your mind, if you can justify and explain the why we're doing something, particularly when it's thing the kids that don't want to do. They might not agree with you, but if you can s explain it a way that they can say, you know what, fine, I get it. Alright, I'll do it anyway, then that's about a one. So I think too much too often we focus on making things super explicit and linked to a curriculum or linked to this is gonna help you when you're applying for a job. Or this is it's like you know what? I have no idea where in life this is gonna help you. You're probably never gonna do this, you know, this equation ever again for the rest of your life. But we're still doing it.

SPEAKER_07 45:09

Yeah, exactly. So interesting. All right, I've asked all the guests as the last question what's next for that person? What's next for Christian?

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Uh 250 reports that I've got to get done by next Friday.

SPEAKER_07 45:25

Hooray. So after the reports.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

I've I've you know reflected on I've had some amazing opportunities as a teacher. And you know, I've been in leadership positions and I've had uh as an experience, yeah, the teaching excellent program was is amazing for me. And I think too too often um teachers, really good teachers, uh encouraged or pushed to embrace leadership opportunities, you know, write curriculum, have more implements, do more, more reach. For me, I'm at a a place in my career that I just love being in the classroom.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

So for me, my goal is I just want to stay in the classroom as long as possible. And I I love it. I love, you know, I love teaching kids. So I just want to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_07 46:11

Hooray. Sounds great.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

So yeah. Just I'm enjoying the process, loving the journey, and every day's different. I got just loving being a teacher. And I think for the more that we can get back to for for every one of us that's in this profession, like, why'd you be a teacher in the first place? Yes, you love it and it's an awesome job. And that's what keeps me going on days like today when I'm gonna open my inbox, I'm gonna say bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. You know what? It's worth it. 100% worth it.

SPEAKER_07 46:42

It is. I completely agree. I love it too. So I hope other people can listen to it. I hope this inspires um young people who are considering being a teacher in the future because we need you. We really, really need you. We need people who love doing the activity, doing the teaching. It's such a buzz when you can see the development in somebody. And that's not just development of leveling up in a particular curriculum area. It's definitely that confidence and coming into being who you are. I really, really appreciate your time, Christian. I appreciate the time that you've spent listening to the podcast, thinking about it, bringing your expertise to the discussion. And this is the first educator discussion that's going to be dropped, hopefully, every five episodes, so that we've got a bit more reflection time on it. And good luck with teaching and teaching and teaching.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Yeah, look, thank you so much to Susan. I absolutely love what you're doing with this podcast. Big, you know, from me, thank you to all your guests so far for putting your hand up to do something like this. And to be vulnerable and to speak your truth, because the more that we talk about these important issues in education and things that are affecting our young people, the better we can be. And every one of us as teachers, we're all doing the best we can. And we can 100% do better, and that's what we commit to doing every day. And the more perspectives that we have to draw on, that helps us too. So thank you for everyone for you know engaging with the podcast. It's been a real privilege for me to have a chat with you and cannot wait to see what happens next with your big goals. And I'm happy to help them anyway.

SPEAKER_07 48:26

Thanks, Christian. See you soon. This section is a series of cameos from our guests so far, which refer back to the things that Christian and I were talking about. So the first is Bella talking about success at school.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Yeah, I think my entire view on what's important and what you know what's important in life is completely different. In school, I thought education and making money pretty much were was the most important thing and ultimately what leads to happiness. But I think, yeah, just giving myself room to try out different things, creative things, academic things, whatever it is, just dipping my toes in um yeah, in different ventures. Um and yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:27

Next is Liam, one example of a guest who was talking about how important it was to have that teacher, the one who really spoke to them and saw them, understood them, created connection.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

It was uh it was one of those things that she says at the front of the class, it was those ones that you'd take your side either in a group of two or by yourself.

SPEAKER_04 49:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

And I don't know, it just has a little one-on-one heart to heart with you. And I I sort of gravitate to those conversations a bit more than just a big broad, you know, just classroom or hall you'd feel like you're getting spoken to with care.

SPEAKER_07 50:10

Yeah. Um Jonathan talks about being the unicorn that enjoys tests. He enjoyed the sense of success that came from doing a test. But I've added in here Bella's reflection on comparing yourself and the impact of that. So I've put the two of those things together so that you can see that we really do have very different people in our rooms as a normal part of teaching. Okay, so it wasn't like achievement fatigue or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

It was more I still loved doing tests and stuff. Even in the later years, like that was my favorite thing was actually doing a test, which is so bizarre because everyone's like, I hate tests. But but I I loved the almost immediate feedback of I got this right and it feels good. And it's not always the best way of learning, of course, or testing your knowledge, but for me, I was good at them. So it was something I enjoyed. And so it didn't matter. Like And Bella.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

I think comparing, I mean, it's in an ideal world, I don't know how realistic it is, but really we should be comparing ourselves to our past selves or um our grades. It have they improved since the last time? How have they improved? What helped you improve? So yeah, I think it's about personal growth and improvement rather than the definition of an ATAR, which is your number and your growth compared to other people's growth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:34

Yeah. Curiously, although Jonathan says he enjoys tests, he actually agrees with Bella about ATAR being not as important as you're led to believe.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

The push towards getting a really good ATAR and that sort of stuff towards the end of schooling is like something that the teachers go, it's just like it in a bit. Like you have to get this right, or else everything's wrong and nothing is going to work out for you anymore. Right. Which I is so incorrect for real the real world.

SPEAKER_07 52:08

One of the questions in 13 Years Well Spent is what is it that schools don't teach that you would have appreciated learning? And that's led to my big hairy audacious goal, which we'll see where it goes. I'm not committing to it completely just yet. But here's the inspiration from the guests in little cameos from all of them. Ella.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, I think financial management is so important. Um, bills, taxes, or maybe even like social security, um, not getting scammed. Uh, because even with AI, the rapid growth of AI, even people my age are getting like scammed or getting um, yeah, getting fooled online. And so I think maybe like cybersecurity could be really important. Um Race.

SPEAKER_06 53:03

You know, it's funny. My husband and I actually spent some time writing a list of some of the things. Um, so potentially a book in the works, we'll we'll see. But no, I think some of the main things would be around money, finances, basically how to live and how to navigate our system. Um, so voting is something that's not taught, taxes are something that aren't taught. Um, purchasing of a house or renting, right? You know, knowing what our rights are and what they aren't. And yes, I know there are professionals that we can go to about that, but how do we know which professionals to go to? Yes. How do we know, you know, we've got a hole in the roof? Do we call a locksmith? I I mean, obviously you're not gonna do that. But who do you call? Right. So there is so much that schools don't prepare us for, and unless you've experienced it or your parents have exposed you to it, um, you just don't know. Jonathan.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

You here's some general like life class sort of thing. Here are some things that you will experience in the first year out of school for a lot of kids. I mean, not not everyone, but the these are the first things you'll experience. Here's how to deal with them so you don't feel lost and overwhelmed the second they come up because you kind of do.

SPEAKER_05 54:35

Well, they don't teach us how to do our taxes. I know. They don't teach us how to get a business loan, they don't teach us how to get a house loan, right? They don't really teach you life. Liam.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Probably things socially.

SPEAKER_07 54:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah. Things that they just wouldn't touch on, so uh I don't know how to explain this, it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 55:05

That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

But go into people's houses doing me job and it's such simple stuff, you know. You just go in and say hi, how are you doing quotes and things like that? Um I don't really know how to explain it beyond that without it sounding so simple. But there's some there must be it's probably an English class now that I think about it, but how to have conversations and not stutter along your words and things like that. But all I remember from English class is just your book reports and things. There wasn't the other parts that I actually they probably were. I reckon they were in the uh what do you call it? The I want to get it right. Because you got like the the advanced kids, they had like the really hard Englishers and the maths. The middle ground where I was at and they just do your book reports and watch your movies. Probably the lower class that they knew that they weren't gonna do university. I reckon that's where they did the socialising aspect, and I think.

SPEAKER_07 56:13

Maybe, I don't know. You'll have to talk to somebody who's been in those sorts of classes and see what they had to say. So you're you're really talking about the customer interface. They Yeah, uh the way that you approach customers so that they feel confident and trust you as a business person straight up. Um perhaps the email side of things as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Oh, yeah, I'm useless for that. Absolutely useless.

SPEAKER_07 56:38

And finally, we had a chat with Christian about whether the skills, like the learning skills, were the important part rather than the content. We need the content in order to learn the skills, but perhaps the skills are the priority rather than the actual knowledge. Here's Jonathan on the subject.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

And I work in IT now, so it it that that ability to problem solve is an everyday task. And that absolutely set me up for that, which was, I think, the the real point of schooling.

SPEAKER_07 57:12

I hope you join us for next week's episode. It's with Jazz. She brings the perspective of dyslexia to understanding teaching and learning, and the sorts of things that teachers did and didn't do that helped and didn't help her. So have a listen to that one as well. I hope this is making a difference to you and your teaching. Please share it with as many people as you can so that we can all find our people. Bye for now.