7 Rebecca

Every story is part of the picture, and this one gives the perspective of lived SEND experience. (Special Educational Needs and Disabilities). Rebecca offers important insights into the different ways school both enabled and disabled her. She describes bullying and some rocketing successes! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Was the 13 years or so that you spent in school-based education? Well spent. The idea comes from Guy Claxton who wonders if young adults would say it is 13 years well spent. Well, he said 12 because of the British education system. As we listen to the stories of young people, 18 to 30-ish, who have begun to live their lives, their reflections on school-based education seem to be bringing up some themes. I'm very aware that this is a small sample size and it is dependent on my networks, which means it is not yet a representative group. I'm also aware that schools change and hopefully improve. So the experiences of someone who is 18 to 30 might not be the same as the experiences that they might have if they were in school now. Nevertheless, I think there are some interesting ideas to reflect upon. Could schools, for example, do more with teaching the sorts of life skills that are being suggested by guests in this podcast so far? Could teachers and leaders be more attuned to the connections being made with the humans in the room, particularly those who might have various learning challenges or feel out of place? My hope is that educators listen and use these ideas as a point of reflection. It is certainly making me think. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organisations I am, have been or might in the future be associated with.com. Before we get into this episode, I would like to acknowledge the Ganai Kennai and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded lands where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would also like to thank my partner Gary for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. I'm most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us, and please do share it with others so that we all might consider how these stories might mediate our thinking about school-based education. Let's get into it. Now, it's one thing to have a big, hairy, audacious goal, but I think it needs more than just me to do it, which I was already aware of. But one of the first things that I've started to do this week is to figure out who else is already working in this sort of space and what sorts of things are already available. And then why are they not getting through to the people who say they want to know about them? And that is the teenagers. And one of my guests, um, which is coming up, so you won't have heard it yet, did mention that they thought that 15-year-old that person might not have listened to things about, for example, tax or mortgages, because it just wasn't part of what they're thinking about. Anyway, I have come across quite a few different places that do have material in this sort of thing. One is Year 13. That organisation has quite a lot of different materials. And another one is some Western Australian organisations. I haven't reached out to them yet. I haven't seen what's on their websites and things, but um I am aware that investigating what exists is one step towards doing something new. The reason I'm sharing this all with anybody who's listening, everybody who's listening, is because one of the pieces that Guy Claxton talks about is how adults learn. When we as adults want to be able to move into an area that we don't have skills in, and this is definitely an area that I do not have a skill in, we spend a lot of time investigating. We chat to people, we go online, we listen to more podcasts, we do some reading, we chat to people again, and we just generally build our skills in a way which is relatively organic. So we might not, as adults, notice that we're doing learning behaviours. The important piece of noticing adult learning behaviours is being able to then transfer them to help our young people develop them so that they too, as adults, can be great learners. It's a bit of a platitude to say lifelong learners, and I think those sorts of platitudes actually undermine the relevance of the actual skill. So I'm curious about different ways of that skill being brought to the attention of people who are stuck being in a school environment in the first place because that's what they have to do. But how can they then make the most of that for them, not just for what me as a teacher or an education system thinks they ought to be doing? Today's interview is incredibly special for me because Rebecca is the first and so far the only person who has reached out to me through posts on LinkedIn to say that she would really like to share her story on this podcast. I'm really, really grateful to Rebecca for doing that. I'd also like to let you know that Rebecca and Lucy, who is in another episode, know each other through a work connection and therefore, also both being in Britain at the moment, it was much easier for them to coordinate with each other to do the recording. So huge thank you both to Rebecca and to Lucy for an incredible story.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

So our guest this week, Rebecca, is from the United Kingdom. She has recently been on a six-month internship with the Department for Education as a policy advisor as part of a supported internship program. She has also worked as a supported intern as a communications assistant at Watershed and as an administration and marketing intern at Children's Scrap Store. She also has a level four award in data and marketing. Rebecca started primary school at age four in 2006 and finished primary school in year six, age 11 in 2013. She then moved into secondary school the same year and finished secondary school at the age 16 in 2018. After that, Rebecca was in college between the ages of 16 and 18, where she studied creative media production. She spent all of her school years in mainstream education. Rebecca has hemophlegic cerebral causal, which affects the left side of her body and gives her other symptoms such as having a slightly slower brain function. She is also strongly considering the fact that she might have ADHD, but she doesn't have a diagnosis for this as of yet. That will, of course, inform her story. So Rebecca brings lived SEND experience. Send is an acronym for special educational needs and disabilities, analytical thinking, and a focus on clear, accessible communication built through work in government, creative media, and inclusion-driven products. Rebecca's education story is in the British context. However, her experience in the school system are likely to resonate with many also in the Australian context. Every person's story is part of the picture. The aim of this podcast is to build that picture for teachers, school, and system leaders so they are aware of the impact of school after people leave the school gates and not just their work readiness, but also life readiness. Rebecca's story is very insightful, and we thank her deeply for coming on this podcast. Wonderful. So welcome, Rebecca. Really excited to have you on the podcast today, especially um from the UK context, one that we haven't heard so far. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 10:02

I'm uh good, thank you. Um I'm very excited to uh to like to do this today. And um uh a little bit nervous, but like yeah, I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

I can definitely understand that. Um, Dino, also very excited and a bit nervous. Um, I might say as well that we've we've had the opportunity to work together, which is really wonderful, um, while you're interning at the Department for Education, um, which is great. I think that all adds some really great context as well, um, to even your insights of your school education. And kind of with that, I was wondering, do you think that your years in school-based education were well spent?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Um, I would say that's kind of a difficult question because it's definitely like shaped me into who I am today. Like, for example, it definitely like expanded my career aspirations. So I don't think I'd be doing I'd be like going after the kind of career I want if it wasn't for how I was, how school was like for me. So like when I think especially like when I was a kid, I have a memory, a really funny like memory. Um I was I kept like asked like what I wanted to be when I was growing when I was to grow up. And um a lot of people would just say a lot of kids would just say like oh I want to be a doctor, oh I want to be like I don't know, um a chef or something. But I was like really clearless and I was just like I want to be I want to be a draft. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Have you achieved being a draft yet?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Well, I think I might have been a bit confused to be honest by that question because everyone about me was saying that which is really weird because I've always been really short, like always, but um everyone about me for some reason kept saying that I was gonna be really tall and be like be like really tall like a draft. But um I think that's why I answered that question like that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Maybe you have like a stilt walking career ahead of you.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Okay, well that's great to hear it's raised your kind of view of your career.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

But yeah, I um and I'm definitely grateful for like different policies, such as like there was a one policy called descend code of practice, which was in 2001. And that that meant that I was able to I think I mean I came into practice and that meant that like people with disabilities they weren't like automatically like assigned to a special school and that they could like they could be considered to come into a mainstream school if they felt like that was suitable for them. Which like if I didn't end up in a mainstream school, I felt like I wouldn't have had the same opportunities to like, you know, um be able to like achieve the things that I do in life. Not to say that better schools are not also like designed to help them young people like thrive in life, but I just feel like it gave me like a different gave me better opportunities, I guess. So I'm very grateful for that. But overall I do looking back, I do feel like there were some there's definitely a lot of room for improvement, I feel, in the education system overall and also in the send like system. For example, I feel like if send policies, although they are like designed to like try and help and support the student, so like they'll provide reasonable investments and accommodations and stuff, some of it is like a lot of it is like that it involves like another teacher being there, and I feel like sometimes that might have like separated me from the other kids because I seen I've seen as like different. Um and I feel like there might be if there is like more disability education. I feel like I might I might have enjoyed school a little bit more than I did and felt like I fit in a bit more overall. Yeah. But yeah, overall I feel like it's just like a mixed bag to be honest. Like I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for how school works for me. I grew like like there definitely is room for improvement, I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah, absolutely, and that's such a good phrase. Room, room for improvement. We want to make things as good as possible for people, don't we? And um for a slight context as well, because of the kind of Australian perspective. Um, so in the UK, there are a little bit still a fair bit of segregation between special schools and mainstream schools. But yeah, as you said, like there's more and more people um going to mainstream schools, and it's so wonderful to hear that that was the right choice for you. But that's a really interesting point, and yeah, keen to get into the nitty-gritty of what could be improved. Um, but before we do, let's hear a bit more about kind of your story and yeah, there's many years in school-based education. So wanting to learn a bit more about your experience, maybe let's start with primary school. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Okay, so in the very in like when I first started, um, in fact on my very first day, I was so eager to get in there. Like I I used to up until about basically I started walking when I was four years old, um, which is almost like 20 years now, because I'm literally twenty nearly twenty four. But before that, I used to like have like this little metal frame which used to help me like walk. Um, because I used to have like a lot of balance issues and stuff. And not to say that before I say this, like not to say that having a frame is like seen as a bad thing, like it it just helps people get around and stuff. I used it to like walk up to the school, but because I wanted to be like independent walking independently, I literally ditched it to walk into the classroom. Um but overall in the first few years I was like I was like really like happy, bubbly, like it didn't I didn't think I felt very different, like I was very included. I think it's just like at that age, I mean when I was five anyway, I'm not sure about kids these days, but I feel like everyone just like friends all friends of each other to be honest. It's not like I don't think anyone really sees any different, like because kids are just play, don't you? Yeah, they just play. Yeah, so in the early years it was like completely fine. Um and I do I can't remember what the academics was like because so long ago, but like yeah, all I remember is I was just I loved like high school musical and stuff like that. And like I was all I cared about was that and um yeah. Um and then when I got a bit older, I think although I was still quite happy in Berkeley, I um I did start to lose confidence, I think, because I was I think like it was getting to the age where everyone around me was like growing up a bit and like they were starting to like I think some of the games that like they used to play were a bit getting a bit rougher, which were not like suitable for me. So I did spend quite a lot of time playing hopscotch and I feel like 'cause that was the only part of the playground that was like it wasn't I wasn't like I'd like it to get knocked over, which I did a lot of the time during primary, I did like end up um in the first aid room because I kept like being knocked over or whatever. And I did end up spending like it did mean I did spend my my break times a lot with like some of the playground staff that were on UC. And I did have a few a couple of people who were uh other kids who I did play with, but like I didn't think I was that it wasn't like I wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

Um I didn't know where to say that. How to say it.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Um you mean like you weren't maybe as socially connected to the other kids, so maybe, yeah, I'd say that.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I'd say that. But obviously I didn't want to like ruin obviously I didn't want to ruin their fun, because a lot of kids do like to just, you know, be um just like play and like be like run around and like play rough games and stuff. So I didn't want to ruin their fun, but I do and I definitely did enjoy just playing hopscotch like a lot and doing my little thing in the corner. But like I don't know. I did feel like some kids did get annoyed at some of the things I needed, like like I like I remember like in I remember like um for example I couldn't get like cut my food like properly like everyone else could. With like normal calorie. Maybe I could if I had like a special calorie. But um yeah, so people used to get like I think having a couple of the older kids who were helping me, um, who were sat around my table with me, like they did used to get annoyed sometimes and like over and I also was because I think because I was getting older and I think I did have a few like adaptive equipment that I had to use. Which I obviously understood why I had to use it and now I understand why. Um because I did like school I did have like I used used to wear spints. Um I used to like I did have mobility issues and stuff. But like I think I did get a bit like self-conscious about using them back then. But yeah. Was it only maybe you at school who um yeah, who who had those like I was yeah, I think I was like the o one of the only two people in the whole school with I think there might have been some younger kids actually, but in like my sort of year group or so of like that kind of uh stage, key stage of that school of school, me I was me and this other it was like me and this boy, this guy, um, who like were like the two one of the only two people in the whole school with physical disabilities. So like I guess it did I it did feel like I feel like at that age you kind of want to like fit in a bit, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

So you mentioned a little bit about socially, um maybe it was trickier playing with the kids who wanted to do more rougher play. Um what about maybe academically? How how did you find primary school with your academically?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I was um I can't remember the early years, the very early years really. But I remember like in the definitely the later years, um my one of my like my I was like I did get like lower grades than everyone, like most I well I was one of like I wasn't the only person who had received got lower grades in the whole class, but like I was one of the people who got lower grades. I think basically a lot of people might have like especially the teachers might have looked at me and thought like I just didn't have the main mental capacity for it or the capability. But I I think it might have just been because like I did have a tendency to daydream quite a lot. So like when you had some teach and some teachers were like so I think it depends on the teachers, I think. Because like some of them the way they talk was just like they just explained everything too fast and they were just like trying to keep up. But then other teachers were like really like very hands on and Make I think they made the the learning very like sort of playful and easy to understand. But I think it definitely depends on the teachers.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah, that's great to hear that there was there's definitely things that teachers could do that would have that helped you to to learn and like made you um in a better position to be able to learn the content. Were there any teachers in particular that or examples of something that a teacher did that really helped?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

There was one teacher uh who I think she was well respected by a lot of kids. I think it was like when I was like in key stage one, which is basically up to like age seven, is that we uh we had this one teacher and she um she was like she always wore like really colourful outfits and wore and had like bright pink hair. She had like this whole thing about pencils. You know, when you sharpen the pencil, it was like the more you sharpen it, that like the smaller it gets.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

She would call those pencils baby pencils and and then like the the pencils that were like not really sharpened that much or whatever, or like they were just brand new, they would be like daddy pencil. I love it. I guess that was like really I just think made it really fun, I guess. Um for the whole like all of us, and I think we did all like yeah, we really did like that teacher. Yeah, at the same time there were some teachers who were just who were like they overlooked some of the things that so like example if I used to so like because they used to like daydream a lot, especially in the later years. Yeah, so you should think like some teachers used to think that I was just not accidentally capable.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Was there anything that they did to maybe that indicated to you that oh they just don't think I can do this? Or um was it just a general kind of feeling?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

I think I think it was I don't know who that's okay too, if it was like just an overall, like you just kind of would feel it, and sometimes it's lots of little things too to kind of build up.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Um yeah, I mean one thing is like that when I was I did my stats, which is basically like at the end of primary school, you do um like like these like tests and stuff to like just so like they know have an understanding of what your level is when you start secondary school. And my results were like one of it wasn't just me, like me and some other people um had some really low like results and um and I think she did like sort of tell us off about that, so like which to be honest, I think the whole thing with stats is that like I think they made out that it was like really important, like it was like super important to have really good results when it wasn't like a qualification that you're gonna be getting, it's if you just like solely know whereabouts you are at secondary school. And I think I remember a lot of us were like some of us were like a bit scared about like if we don't do well in these TAS where we get into secondary school, and I'm like it wasn't the case, and even though now looking back at it, like when I ended up in secondary school, considering I had very low SATS results, I ended up passing my all my my pretty much most of my TCCs, which is like the qualification you do at the end when you're 16. And I was doing them in like high in the higher tiers for most of them as well, like the higher pay prayer.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Oh my god, well done. What an underdog story. That's great. Yeah. I might also just for um the Australian people who might be listening, um, like you said, the SATS or SATs, um, they're a standard stand for a standard assessment task. Um, and GCSC is the general certificate of secondary education, and as you said, that's the what you take at the end of your high school. Um and since we're kind of coming on to high school, did you want to talk a bit about your story and experience there? What was that like? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

I think because of all like the social and also academic like difficulty I had like in the late as time went on in primary school, although I do looking back, it is like my favourite part of my education in primary school. I think like I did start off with like sort of low confidence, I think, in myself in like when I first started. But um at the same time, in those first two years, it was like basically I went to the same well, my mum went to like the school when it was a different it was not my school, like it was it was the same site, but it was a different ownership, or like it was that yeah. Um so like a lot of the parents that obviously this people she went to school with, their kids ended up going to school at the same time as the same thing as me. So like at the start, it was like I had loads of people that I could like be friends with. And to be honest, we were like innocent like 11-year-olds. So like I think at that age, like a lot of it wasn't like although I didn't become super close to any of them, it was like there's this big group of us where we were all sort of friendly acquaintances at least. I mean some of them might have been closer to each other, so I I didn't really have proper friends, but in those first two years, but like I generally like when I went went into school every day, it wasn't like it didn't feel like that isolating, it was just like it was quite nice. And then obviously as we got older and like became teenagers, things did change. So like um in year um busy in year nine, um my boyfriend who I'm still with came uh he he came to us, he transferred us to my school and like we didn't start dating straight away, but we like but then we eventually did start dating. And um I think one thing I didn't like like about it it is that the other kids that seem to like follow us around everywhere, that we couldn't just have a normal relationship, um which was a bit annoyed, but yeah, and for some reason like he a lot of people didn't like end up liking him like at all. He was like one of the most because he's basically he's autistic and he had other issues going on, so like he just did have a lot of outbursts and stuff, and then that meant that a lot of people just didn't end up like liking him. So like basically in year when I got to like I think it was year 10 or might be end of year nine, I'm not sure. No, I can't remember. There was like these like anomalous messaging services going around. Yeah, I I just thought, oh, this is quite fun, I'm gonna start using it. Um and and it turns out that a lot of people, it's a very easy like target and an easy platform for people just say whatever on it, and some of them were not as a lot of the comments that I personally got were not very nice. I think technically I could have just been like you know, because it's like something that I put on my story, like I put on my social media, like for people to like uh like say stuff. Um, so I could have like got rid of the link and it and like nothing would have and it would have like I think it would have fully stopped because I feel like I was tased a little bit in in like in person as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Yeah, I think difficult too, isn't it? And like when it's a new thing, you're excited about it, you want to be on it like everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I did get addicted to it. It was all difficult.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, can I can I just say as well, you you were put in a really hard position with all these new technologies, but no tools on how to protect yourself and no one protecting you.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Um that would have been a really hard time. I mean, we did have some, like, you know, it wasn't just all about academics, like in terms of like the like curriculum. We did have a few weeks where we like I think one week every term where we had like we talked about like more sort of P S H E thing. I don't know if you're consider you know what that means.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

It's like things like um staying safe online and like but that's different to be us now knowing how addictive the platforms are as well. Yeah, there's ways to stay safe, and then there's all the research coming out now of how addictive they are.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, like they were especially if they're not anomalous as well, like um like those all platforms were easy, like because it because you couldn't see who was doing it, like there's no proof, so even if you did report it, like there's no proof of who it was. So like yeah, and I think that that that did end up making me like I feel like the end of school was something that you're supposed to like enjoy. It's always like work hard to your exams and stuff, but because I sort of um I think it was also because of my the way how things were with my um with my boyfriend as well, and then people just like not because they didn't like him and I was sitting up standing up from all the time. I guess people just didn't end up like losing respect for me and stuff as well. But like towards the end of school, I um was so ready to like just move on and get out of that school where I just like sort of isolated myself and just focused entirely on my exams. And like, yeah, I actually remember like some of the staff saying like seeing me like with my textbooks and stuff, and it was like, oh she's really studious, so you should and like telling other kids to like take the cut, like follow in my footsteps as well and stuff. But like it in in reality, it was she just like I was that she just focused in my whole energy on that. Um because I wasn't like telling anyone like how I was actually feeling either. Like I also I sort of I think people knew in my school because like I was very very like active on social media and like pretty much everyone knew what was happening. Um but I didn't tell any like parents or teachers or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

So like yeah, um that would have been hard kind of going through that a bit, a bit alone and yeah, without support.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

And like my my boyfriend, like we were a completely different set um school, so like we didn't go in any, we didn't share any classes together. Like, so it was like yeah, I don't know if I should move on to like the academic side of a bit now.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, yeah, so that was kind of how you experienced the people around you at the school. Um, and then you kind of threw yourself into academics. So, what what was the academics like for you?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I was definitely compared to primary school, I was definitely more accept like supported because I actually I remember starting secondary school and I was sat in like the room with everyone else who needed support. That's how we ended up, that's how I started. Um, and then that turns out it wasn't the best for me because I still needed extra time and like I needed my own room so I can have a scribe and stuff. And then towards the end, when I was actually doing my exams, I had my own room, had extra time, had a scribe, everything. And that was all good. Like, so like in that in that sense, I got all the support I needed to like thrive academically. Um I do think that some of the support I did uh did like receive probably did sort of widen the gap from myself and my peers. So a lot of people made like a lot of false assumptions about me. Um they thought because I had like a scribe in class, and I used to daydream as well sometimes as well. It just for how I looked to other people, I just probably just didn't look like I was on the same level because I had a teacher sat with me in some lessons and stuff. So I think that might have been one of the reasons why I did get picked on. So although it was a like what I needed academically, I did need a scribe because like I was a bit slower in writing things, I do feel like I was um I didn't have other you from the other students, is that what you mean or not quite? Um I think it it did, yeah. Um and like another thing is I know obviously P is not really an academic, but I wasn't the most ac athletic or the most sporty anyway. And like I couldn't like do like the same play the same games as everyone else could on the same level. So like we'd all be made to do like netball or something when really that that subject was put in just for us to be like active. So I don't understand we're all made, we're all made to like do the same, play this don't have to play this like complex ball game. So it it meant that sometimes I had to be like I mean I was playing the main game, I was in the corner of a TA doing like a separate skill or something until I eventually was able to join in on the main game, but I felt like that also sort of separated me from everyone.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah, definitely. I think separate is is such a key word, especially you're you're at a mainstream school, like you're trying, like the hope is that you're kind of integrated and like uh what's that word that teachers use? It's like differentiated or something like that. Um, so that everyone can be involved. Um, but feeling like you're literally on the side doing something else to the other kids, like that that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah. I think I'm done with that question. Am I done? I feel like I can just rambling it on.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Not totally fine. Well, we can yeah, kind of talk about um if you think that overall kind of school, primary and secondary, do you think that prepared you for life? And what did you learn at school that you're now using in your life?

SPEAKER_01 37:33

It's mixed, I think, because some of the things that they're positive about school is that I definitely liked and I definitely am learning and using in life now, is that I really loved like learning. I still do and really like love learning. So like I pretty much most of the subjects that I did, I think I did have an interest in. I think some of my favorite subjects is like I loved Spanish. Um, I was really good at it. I was still not sure. Um and English was one of my favourites as well, especially English literature, I'd say. I also really like science. I think science is one of my favourite subjects, it's really fun. Um, especially when it's in secondary school because they have better equipment, so like we could do more. But I was in primary, it was all limited to what the prime the classroom could like. So I think some of the things I'm definitely taking into life now from that is like I'm really interested in I'm always like researching different scientific stuff all the time, like just um, because I'm it's really interesting. And obviously I love languages. I did go for a phase where I was like on Duolingo all the time, and like just a refresh, because I like because I was like I don't know, I was just bored one day and I was like, I just wanna I was like, oh I was really good at like Spanish in school, I wonder how good I am now still. And it turns out I'm actually, although I haven't really spoken it in years, I was still really like I was still able to understand like GCC level questions. It's brilliant. Yeah, and um and like if English, like I definitely some of the Blake's books that we studied and stuff, I definitely still like and like like for one of them um called Inspectacles, I actually went with my brother to um see a play of it when he was in year 11 because he was like studying it, so it it'd be good to like see the play so he can actually prepare for his exams or whatever. Um because I just went along because I really liked I really liked it in school, so I wanted to see the play. So I think that's the thing that definitely how it prepared me for life. Also, obviously it's prepared my whole career in a way, because um I would definitely not be seen on this podcast if it wasn't for how like uh trying to like use my stories to like try and influence change and stuff. Um and I wouldn't be as active as I am on LinkedIn about like inclusion and things like that. I definitely probably wouldn't have like I most likely wouldn't have done the internship with the Department of Education because I think when I got an opportunity, I wasn't just like, oh this is a really good opportunity to put on my TV. It was also like I was like as someone who did feel a little bit like not included in private school, um being able to do an internship at the at the Department of Education where I literally get to learn about policy first hand and might even be able to influence change like firsthand from my own like just from being myself. Um was like really cool. And so that it definitely influenced my career and I definitely wouldn't be the person I was if everything was like completely fine. But I think like some of the the posit the negatives of it is that because I did have a lot of like social difficulties and I I was sort of secluded a little bit. Is that the right word? I think it is. I think because I didn't really spend a lot of time like just building natural like relationships with my peers and like this normal friendships and stuff, and because I've seen this very different. I feel like I'm like I don't know, I'm really socially I I'm really socially awkward, so like I'm really like shy as well. So like I wonder if it's down to like how I was in school or not. I don't really know, it might just be me anyway, but like so like when it comes to like and also when it comes to meeting new people, I sometimes I like hold back some like I don't know if they're just being nice because they want like because they they feel bad for me or like they generally just want to be friends with me. And also like it's obviously giving me like just in general, giving me like self-trust issues because like I don't know some I may be very aware of how some people are I some people's attitudes are towards people with disabilities because like when I was like a young kid, I thought everyone was like nice and threatening though those nice like I didn't know any better. So like in a way it's like it's prepared me for life, but like also has given me issues I have to like work to overcome to like so I can like thrive both academically and both like in work and also just like in social life and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah. Um that's really interesting, I think. Like, especially yeah, the realization going through school that people aren't always nice, especially people with disabilities or just people different to them. It's such a sad lesson um to have come from school. But yeah, I can ema I can imagine that it'd be really difficult to then be like, okay, well, this person that I've now not, what are they what do they think of people with disabilities? Are they gonna be kind? Are they um gonna infantilize me? Are they yeah, so that's that's a really tricky lesson. And I I really hope that as a society we're able to not have that as a lesson, and it actually just means that everyone's kind, also everyone's different. Um that is kind of the goal. Um I'm also really glad to hear that you had some like positive outcomes from school of like building that curiosity. And passion for different topics and for changing the way that school is is kind of run so that people do feel included. Like that's it's really inspiring, Rebecca. Really inspiring. I was wondering, is there anything that you think schools could be teaching that aren't? And anything that they're teaching at the moment that maybe could be taken out?

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Um I think that I don't I don't know if like it's worth being teeth taught in schools because we are like young, we're not adults yet. Um but I do think a lot of people, I feel like a lot of people would agree with me, is that I don't know how to do taxes and um and things like that. Like and that is like a I know it's something that can relearn after you finish school. You can definitely learn as an adult. Otherwise, why like there's definitely otherwise like that's not something that most people most adults have to like no pretty much all adults have to do. So like obviously it's something you can learn. But I think if we had like a general basic understanding, um it might just be a bit easier because some people I don't know, because if you think about it, if it's something that you have to learn as you get as a young adult, if you're spent for example, if you're just spent all your time like working because you have to like make enough money to survive, you might not have enough time to be able to teach yourself like that those basic like life skills as well. Absolutely. Um and people might not even have like supportive family around them to taught teach them in a way that they nobody understand. And I don't know. There are more tools, I think, out there that can teach people basic life skills, but I thought maybe that might have been good. I don't know. I also feel like schools are like I do think sometimes we are we were taught things that like not everyone needs to know unless they want to specialise in it. I don't know if I think apparently algebra is like a really good um apparently teaches really good skills apparently, but like a lot of people I remember a lot of people were like saying when I was in school, like why do we why are we learning this? Like why what why do we need to like when in life am I gonna use this? Um I actually personally like algebra, but like yeah. I don't know, I think also I do feel like focusing so much on exams is probably not like the best way of teaching someone because I feel like a lot of people do better in class, I think in turn like they might be really intelligent people, but when it comes to exams, because of the way they're exact designed and you have to be really fast and like memori memorise a lot of information and stuff like that, but it means that a lot of people just get lower grades even though they're really intelligent. And then especially if you're facing like but you have jobs that like they want like certain grades for you, they want certain grades from you on certain subjects in order to get that job. I feel like it shouldn't be based on it should be based on like how you do how well you do in an exam. I think I definitely do because it's not in especially in some exams, it's not like just knowing the core like knowledge, it's also like applying it to the sp specific question as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

So like yeah, um absolutely. I feel like exams uh often come off as something of um yeah, that that people say some people thrive and some people don't.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

You're not really always assessing intelligence or knowledge or learning. Um really, yeah, really interesting um points. Um I was wondering or interested in what you would like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policymakers.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Um I think there's a lot of focus in general around like attendance and obviously attendance you kind of need people to attend school in order for them to be able to like, you know, learn well and stuff, but like um there's a lot of focus on like on the academics, I feel a lot all the time. Um, but I don't think I mean I think schools are starting to become more aware of like how the student might just be overall doing. But I think because there's so much focus on getting the right grades and stuff, but I think people they tend to teach us some teach some teachers like they generally want to care about the student as well, but like I think they get so caught up in like the trickdom but some students might not be doing okay, like even though they might like for example they might be really good academically, but they they're actually like really like struggling. Um or like it's the complete opposite but they still like are not actually doing they're like they're like like if someone's like really like badly behaved they might be just bitten off as like naughty behavior but actually then they're not like they're not actually okay. Like I don't know Yeah, I think it needs to be more of a focus on just like overall well being. Um as well with learning as well. I think learning is very important, like it's something I'm not saying that we should just not learn important things, of course we do, but like don't I feel like to not focus so much on exams, make sure that power focus on like overall student well being and also maybe like like I said, I feel like the more the subjects that and the teachers that I generally liked the best were when like the teacher made it really fun and engaging. So like be a bit more like maybe try and find a way to be a bit more like engaging with like learning so like students actually enjoy school rather than just thinking of it as like a boring chore and then only like in school for the social aspect of it. Um, because both the learning side and social side is equally as important.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Oh, I love that. I totally agree. I totally agree. Um, and I hope we reach some yeah, some leaders and policymakers with that. Um brilliant, thanks, thank you, Rebecca. Um, so since we've kind of been talking today and we've kind of gone through your story, some of your key takeaways, um, I'm wondering, do you now think that your years in school-based education were well spent? Um has it changed from the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 51:23

I don't think so. I don't I don't think it has. Like I definitely feel like I wouldn't be in this place if it wasn't for who I like my stor my personal story in school. But like I feel like not everyone but one thing I want to do want to say is like not everyone like had definitely has the same access to all the tools that definitely supported me throughout like school. Um so like so like for me, for example, with the social side of how I especially in secondary school, like I got through that because of I just found loads of positive like role models and stuff, or people I looked up for as role models. And like I'd access to like music and I just watched a lot of like YouTube and stuff when I was after I came home from school and yeah, but I feel like some people might not have access to that. So like um although for me personally I wouldn't I wouldn't like I'm grateful for how school was for me because I wouldn't be sat here if it wasn't if it wasn't good, if if if it was all fine and 100% perfect, but like I do feel like it doesn't mean that that doesn't mean that like just because it was fine turned out okay for me that you shouldn't make any changes because like everyone's different and like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Yeah, absolutely, everyone's different, and like you said at the start, there's always room for improvement, and um your story is wonderful and interesting, and thank you so much for sharing it. Um, but it's also got some hard bits that I really hope that other people I mean, we we both probably hope that other people don't have to go through. So I couldn't agree more. Um so with that in mind, given that your school's kind of brought you school experience has kind of brought you to where you are now, what is next for Rebecca?

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Um well, I'm not exactly quite sure, but I did just get accepted one in I just got invited to an interview recently, um, for in a civil service apprenticeship, which is basically like the UK um how to explain it, like it's basically they they work for the UK government and only represent the UK government and um they it's like government communication um service, which is basically it's by cabinet office, which is basically like literally the I think it's like the main where the main core government is based, I think. I'm not sure. Yeah, so I'm basically doing an app and we might be doing an apprenticeship, um, which is all about working on like government um campaigns about different areas of policy. And um and it might mean that I'm because I actually get placed in the government department, um, I may actually be returning to Department of Education, which I really would love to do because I do miss it so much. Um but at the same time I'm not quite sure which are my next steps because like although I was so set on like being working at DFE, I like now that I'm home and I'm not there, I'm like just thinking about like everything, thinking about like all the different things I like whatever things I want to achieve because I've got so sucked into it, but I just thought like so because I was like everything was to do with that, everything was like four or six months, my whole life was all around that internship. Um but I I guess like yeah, I have different opportunities. I'm like nearly 24, so I think I'm approaching like a little bit of a quarter life crisis, but um maybe a bit early, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

What's next is a quarter life crisis.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

No, but I don't think I don't think so. I might go on an apprenticeship that I might be doing. Um you know, that is all exciting.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

That job sounds really wonderful. My fingers and toes across for you for the interview, and um, it'll be an awesome experience um going there and just meeting some more people from the civil service as well.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

So I get I'll get to have like a general understanding of the whole civil service and then the government and stuff, so that'd be quite cool.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like your direction overall is to make change and kind of influence. Um, and I'm sure you'll do that in whatever way um a job finds you. So, or whatever way you find kind of advocating and um doing doing different pieces of work and projects. So it's all very exciting. Um, and yeah, you've got a world of opportunities at the moment. I think it's yeah, it's it's really wonderful. It can be overwhelming, but really wonderful. Yeah. Awesome. Well, was there anything that we missed while we were talking today that you'd like to cover?

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Um I don't know. Um, um yeah, actually. I think one story that I think I missed out when I was talking about primary school is that I like in year six, which is like the la oh it might have been year five actually, um which is like the last couple years of primary. Um, which is like I was like I think I was about ten. So I think it must have been year five. Um one of my favourite like park activities in sports day was the running race. And I basically my year si my teacher um like almost like stopped me from doing the the race. And if it wasn't for me, just like naturally just getting very upset and end up crying. I wasn't doing I would I didn't just start bursting out crying for no reason. I generally did like there's like a buildup of like frustration and stuff. Um I ended up doing it in the end and I actually um came third place. So oh nice, yeah, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Was there a reason that the teacher didn't was kind of preventing you from doing it?

SPEAKER_01 57:59

I think she didn't was like felt embarrassed that and if she didn't want me to feel embarrassed for coming last, which I didn't care about that like at all.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Um I just wanted to take part, um be part of it and also come third, that's brilliant. Good on you.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

And like also I just want to say, but this person, this teacher, was actually supposed to be like the school Senko at the time, which is basically the person who was in charge of all of the disabled students, basically, or like people wearing our lights like they are, or like um, yeah. So like the fact that she was telling me like to not do it was like a bit, yeah, a bit like she really should have better in that kind of situation.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Oh that would have been tricky, but I'm very impressed that you advocated for yourself to get on it and then also that you came to it. It was brilliant. Yeah. And that you just got to be part of it. That's the main point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 59:09

I can like like with I in like primary, I generally liked getting involved in in sports day a lot. Like I didn't really get involved in it in secondary, so like that was like probably um okay, I like getting physically active now, but like maybe not always. But like that was like and I think like getting and also because of the fact that I have a physical disability, or it affects me one of the some of the symptoms it one of the main symptoms affects me, disability. It affects me physically. Um is like sport is really good for that anyway. So like the fact that they were trying to yeah, like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

But you made it a good day. Yeah.

unknown 59:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

So was there anything else that you would like to let teachers, leaders know from your experience?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Um I think one thing in secondary school is that I was like the very I was like one I was like the class like quiet kid. So like I was so quiet, I barely like spoke really. Um and I was like really hesitant to go up to people all the time. Um so like that also meant that like if a student was being naughty or like just acting up, they would automatically just sit them with me because I'd hope that their behavior my behavior would rub off on them. And like that always felt like really uncomfortable for me, like all the time. I can like you see where they're trying to come from, but I don't think it would have it never works because like they always just ended up just not speaking to me or like um so like it it like yeah, that sort of technique never works.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Um maybe avoid those ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Yeah. Like 'cause I don't know what else what other technique you should use, but like um if you think about it, if you're trying to get someone to pair up to do like group work and you actually want them to actually do the work rather than like just like mess around with a friend, um it's not gonna work if you're gonna pair up someone who's like really like, I don't know, class town or whatever, um, with someone who's like the complete opposite. Because sometimes that class town might not necessarily I don't know, necessarily like want to even be associated with the the quiet kid. So like they're not going to you're not gonna get any meaningful work out of that, like any group work, any meaningful group work out of that. And most of the time that they probably try and get the other kid, the quiet one, to like try and do most of the work. So I don't think that technique necessarily works.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

But yeah, okay, so a PSA, maybe that technique isn't isn't super helpful for anyone in that situation. Yeah. No, that's really helpful to know, definitely. That's the only thing I want I wanted to add. Oh, awesome. Well, it's been so wonderful chatting to you today, Rebecca. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your experience, your insights, especially, yeah, given that you're ready to influence change. This is yeah, kind of one way that you're able to do it, and there's many ways that I see you'll be doing it in the future too. So thank you so much, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, and good luck for that job interview. Awesome, awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

This was such an interesting podcast. Rebecca's clarity and vulnerability have been so deeply appreciated. She talks about being both prepared well for life through her schooling and also impacted by some of the elements of that schooling. Rebecca gave a really clear public service announcement there, PSA, about not sitting children who might be behaving in ways that teachers don't want next to the child that is the quietest, because that's not going to build social relationships between those two children by any means, and it's also not going to help them to do whatever work that needs to be done if it needs to be done together. She sounds like she was quite frustrated by some of the things that were happening in schools. Sometimes it was related to teachers, teachers misunderstanding her needs and making assumptions that she might feel embarrassed to be in a running race when in fact that's what she wanted to do. So the important message here is that teachers talk to the child, talk to the young person, find out where they're up to in terms of what sorts of things work for them to integrate and participate, and not just assume that they're going to feel bad so that they should be separated from a particular activity. And that happened to Rebecca both in the running and in the netball, where she was put to the sideline to do a different sort of skill. And then in the running, she still got third. I mean, go Rebecca. There were other things that were going on at school as well to do with how the students interacted with each other. Rebecca told of situations where the anonymous messaging on a social media platform meant that there was a certain amount of bullying that she received, and she found that really hard to deal with at the same time as feeling quite addicted to that social media platform. That there were things in school to talk about being safe online, but that didn't actually translate for her into feeling protected from the sorts of social interactions that were happening online. In how she described that. But the part that I did get from what she was explaining was it's not okay to be followed around at school just because you've got a boyfriend in a secondary situation, and it sounds like there was a layer of bullying over seeing that choice of the children around her. It also sounds like the teachers weren't picking up and protecting them from the sort of behaviour that was going on for whatever reason. So another element is how the schools did accommodate her in her learning, and particularly in the secondary system, it sounds like she really did get the sort of support that she needed in terms of having a scribe and having a bit more time and space, potentially sometimes a different room to be in. But again, that provided material, I suppose, for some of the social interactions and a certain amount of being picked on by other children. So it's a really delicate situation where the schools are clearly doing their best to accommodate the needs of Rebecca in her physical needs and also in her cognitive needs, but sometimes possibly not helping as much as maybe they could have in terms of being aware of the impact of those supports on her social relationships. So Rebecca is clearly not one to just let it all be. She has found places and ways in the past already through the Department of Education in Britain to help to make a difference to children who are different in all the different ways that children are different, so that the policies can work better to support and allow that awareness of the social integration too of students with different needs. And it sounds like she's about to head into another area of the public service in Britain and be able to influence and advocate for people whose voices are heard best when you hear the voices of people with that lived experience. I am so grateful to Rebecca for doing this work. And I have a suspicion that it's really hard work for her. Although she said she's able to do it essentially by being herself. I'm also imagining that presenting her story on this podcast and doing the talking and doing the thinking when her brain takes a little bit longer to get to the messages, but the messages are so appreciated. So I am grateful for her doing that work because I think we all benefit. Thank you also to the listener for giving 13 Years Well Spent the podcast your time. If you found it interesting, please let others know about it too. What in this episode resonated for you? What actions might you take as a result? I warmly invite you to share your thoughts by emailing me 13yearswellspent at gmail.com. That's 13 as a word, not a numeral, and all lowercase no spaces. Also, if you are between 18 and 30 ish or know somebody who is who would be willing to share their story, please also get in touch via email. Thanks for listening. I hope you'll tune into the next episode too. Bye for now.