Thirteen Years Well Spent
What was school like for you? This podcast chats to young adults about what, from school they use in life and what they have learnt since. In the cumulative stories of real people, lets find out if school is doing as it claims - prepare young people for life.
Thirteen Years Well Spent
9 Lucy
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Yes, a duck. One of Lucy’s memories was being told off, strongly, for drawing a duck on the ‘blank’ page of her test. It was not until her late 20s that Lucy received a dyslexic diagnosis, and everything made sense.
Lucy’s story reveals that even with dyslexia a child can ‘crack the code’ of school and be successful in tests, but post school had to unlearn the assumption that your identity and worth are bound to test results.
Had no idea what the question was and what it wanted from me. I just had zero clue.
SPEAKER_02I remember I drew a duck on the other side of the page. Which said, like, do not write on this, or do not like, yeah, don't write on this.
SPEAKER_01Um, in like big bold, scary letters, and obviously I didn't read that. And then the teacher got really mad at me.
SPEAKER_03Hi, I'm Susan Taylor. An update first on my big hairy audacious goal in making short life skills. Nope. Hi, I'm Susan Taylor. An update first on my big hori Hi, I'm Susan Taylor. An update first on my big hairy audacious goal of making short life skills videos for schools. School holidays have begun, so there might be a chance of me getting a bit of time to go and make a video, although it will be whatever works on an iPhone since I've not yet heard from any media people. There's also a long list of I'll do this one in the holidays. So I'll have to see what I get to because there's other things that I also need to do. Again, if anyone would like to join me in this, please reach out. One of the things I'm loving about this podcast is I don't have an agenda. I'm not coming into the discussion with any particular ideas on what people might say. I have the questions and I'm really, really listening to find out what it is that has made school worthwhile. This means that the thoughts and experiences of our guests shine through. And it's led me to many thoughts that I might not have had without the prompting of these stories. Jazz last week really put front and centre how important it is that teachers believe students when they explain a difficulty and that teachers adjust their teaching in ways that's actually helpful for them. Lucy's story reveals that even with dyslexia, a child can crack the code of school and be successful in tests. But post-school, Lucy has kind of had to unlearn the assumption that your identity and worth are bound to test results. Each story challenges what I think. Essentially, I see the young people in the room where I teach as if they have said one of these important messages. And that changes how I interact with them. I want to contribute to how their 13 years in school-based education might be well spent. The idea comes from Guy Claxton on the ERR, the Education Research Reading Room podcast. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organisations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with.com. Before we get into this episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Gunai, Kernay and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I'd also like to thank my partner, Gary, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I'm most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers, who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us. And please do share it with others so that we might all consider how these stories could mediate our thinking about school-based education. Let's get into it. Lucy went to primary school in a government school in Melbourne until grade 5, then a Catholic school in the same area for grade six. For secondary school, Lucy went to a government secondary school in Melbourne. Lucy is now 26. Lucy, overall, do you think that your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?
SPEAKER_01I would probably say overall, yes. Some were definitely spent better spent than others. I was really lucky to learn like some valuable lessons, like yeah, having the opportunities that I was given while I was at school. And overall, I felt like I left knowing that I could kind of do whatever I set my mind to, which was a really I was really lucky to come out of school with that. I know that that's not everyone's experience though. Uh that's might just be me.
SPEAKER_00Um and yeah, I was it wasn't spent badly, but there was definitely room for improvement, is all I will say.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so a bit of both in that in that sense. Um you said you said you came out of school feeling confident enough to do whatever you set your mind to. Can you expand on that a little bit more?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think I I I mean, we may go into this more as well, but I wasn't the best student in primary school. I was like a solid D, maybe lower, I don't really know, student in primary school. And then I went to high school and I kind of realized or cracked the code that if I try really hard, I get good marks, um, make people happy, get positive feedback. So I kind of learned the lesson of if I put a lot of work in, I can get and do what I want. And it also meant that I got pretty good grades, that meant I got to go to the uni course that I wanted to, and yeah, could kind of see myself doing whatever I set my mind to, which was really I was really lucky to learn. And because I started kind of doing well as well, I think teachers would put opportunities in front of me that they might not have given other students, which I'm not saying that that is good, but it um gave me a yeah, I I I essentially got to benefit from like a lot of people um letting me know about different opportunities.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, cool. Crack the code, I love that word. It in theory, it's not a secret. Teachers are really keen that kids crack that code from the beginning and go all the way through with it. But what I'm finding is that's not always the case for everyone. So I'm glad you cracked the code at some stage in your learning. Can we go back to the primary school bit a little bit more? What can you describe the sort of student that you were in primary school and you explained that your grades weren't that great, and therefore you just said that because your grades aren't great, you didn't see yourself as a great student. But maybe those two things aren't necessarily the same.
SPEAKER_01Definitely, maybe those things aren't necessarily the same. At the time it felt like the same. Yeah. It might also help explaining that during primary school and high school, and I mean ever forever until this year, I had undiagnosed dyslexia. So I didn't realize kind of why I found things extra difficult or wasn't understanding. Um, I just, and my teachers thought that I was just a lazy, um, maybe not so smart student. So yeah, while I was at primary school, I didn't do didn't have great grades. I had a lot of smart people around me as well, which I don't think helped. I did reading recovery while they was reading like Harry Potter when I was still trying to learn how to read. And yeah, once we started getting into marks and things, I think before that I was kind of nonchalant about it. I enjoyed having fun, so I just focused on having fun. I didn't really care about the school. Yeah. And then I think it really started to sink in. Um, I remember one particular time. I feel like we've spoken about this, and it's actually impossible that this was um that this was my memory. But I think it was NACLAN grade one, but I'm not sure if that's even a thing. Anyway, it was it was a literacy test, um, this really big one that everyone had to do. It was like every school in, I don't know, Melbourne or something, or maybe Australia. And everyone had finished their test except me. And they were playing games, and I was just sitting still doing my test, like not even halfway through. Like it wasn't that I didn't know what the answers were, it was that I genuinely had no idea what the question was and what it wanted from me. I just had zero clue.
SPEAKER_02I remember I drew a duck on the other side of the table, which said, like, do not write on this, or do not like, yeah, don't write on this.
SPEAKER_01Um, in like big bold, scary letters, and obviously I didn't read that. And then the teacher got really mad at me and was also, I think, a little bit like, can you just finish up already? Like, everyone's done. So I think that was a that was a real core memory of like, oh yeah, I'm not good at this stuff, and this stuff matters to other people. Like, I think it was also like, yeah, finding out that that was where value was seen a little bit at school.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I am hearing more and more that people are conflating the grades with their sense of value, and I think that's a really interesting message to share with educators that that's the experience sometimes or even often for children. Um I'm curious about the word lazy you used really quite early in that whole story, and thank you for the story, by the way. That was such a beautiful piece, especially with the dark, gorgeous. Um lazy. You said you thought that your teachers thought you were lazy. Is there anything that you can remember noticing that might have brought that thought to your consciousness?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean one part of big part of it probably was homework and not doing it. And so I guess they probably thought I was lazy for not doing it. And in my head, I guess part of me was lazy. I didn't want to do it. It wasn't fun. I enjoyed going outside and playing instead. Um, I didn't have a mum who would do my homework for me, thank goodness. Um lucky and uh yeah, I think that in particular like maybe made them think that I was lazy. It's curious too though, because I overall was like quite, I think I was quite a shy, like nice, well-behaved student. So it's it is like slightly odd that I would then like not do what I was told in that specific study area. I don't know. Um, but I think as well, I was probably like off with the fairies a little bit. And maybe they think that was like just I wasn't listening to them, but it was that I just didn't have a question span and processing was really difficult. Um, so what they were saying to me verbally just went in one ear and out the other, if it even went in the ear, like sometimes it fully just got blocked and I wasn't no idea what was happening. So I think it was definitely like a miscommunication, maybe.
SPEAKER_03So now that you're aware that you've been diagnosed with dyslexia, when you look back on that time where you had to do the test, whether it was NAP plan or something else, and you weren't able to finish in the time that other children had finished, and you just felt like teachers were seeing you as being lazy, and honestly, learning is hard. So it's a very natural response to do as little of it as possible. So that on its own is not necessarily to do with dyslexia, but now you do have an awareness of that. How do you read that experience at primary school for yourself now?
SPEAKER_01I can understand it a lot more now. I feel like I feel like for a really long time I just thought I was dumber than other people.
SPEAKER_04I just thought that I was a I'm so sorry that you felt like that.
SPEAKER_01Which I I think is a common experience for people with dyslexia. And luckily, I I somewhat got that nipped in the butt when I went to high school. But at primary school in particular, that's that's how I felt. And I remember actually there was I don't know why I thought this. I had some really weird thoughts as a kid. Obviously, yeah, obviously, my processing wasn't working very well. Because I remember thinking that like people were talking about like high school and how scared they were to go to high school. And I was like, I just don't think I'm going. Like, I don't think I'm gonna make it. I don't really know what I thought would happen, but I just thought like it was when you're a kid, the future's so far away, you don't really understand time. And I was just like, Yeah, it's just not for me. I just I won't be I won't make it there.
SPEAKER_02I think I'd like to I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01Obviously, I did have to go, which was inconvenient.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, um sorry about that too. School just rolls along whether Lucy thinks she's going or not.
SPEAKER_01I think as well, though, in terms of the dislikes, yeah. Sorry, going back to your actual question and how I now see my primary school years, I can understand a lot more why I was doing that, like why why I had that behavior of not doing my homework, not being able to process things. It makes a lot more sense. And I also have a lot of compassion for the teachers who have like lots of different kids in their class and won't know exactly what every student needs. Um, but if I had a bit of a bit more help, I think that would have been great. And I also think I probably got quite good at, um, especially in high school, quite good at masking like what, like being a bit slow on things. Um, and also something that I've learned through finding out about dyslexia is that because it's a learning difficulty, not disability, it doesn't mean that I can't learn the information. It just means it's harder. So I guess that's what I learned at high school, which I didn't get when I was in primary school, that like it is genuinely extra hard for me, but I can still get there. Whereas in primary school, it just felt like a whole feat that like it just wasn't for me. I was like, it's not possible. I'm okay jumping around outside instead.
SPEAKER_03So, Luce, I'm really interested about that piece that you said right at the start, where you said you cracked the code in secondary school. Obviously, the dyslexia didn't suddenly disappear. So, somehow you were doing something at secondary school that worked for you with that um learning difficulty that made it all work. Can you do you have any clues? Because that sounds like magic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm honestly not entirely sure exactly what it was. I think the one I can remember it most with was actually language. Um, I'm still not very good at languages, but the Japanese uh hiragana, I remember like trying to learn that and doing it visually and that that helped a lot. And I remember kind of not excelling much, but putting in the effort and then getting results. Um I also was which I had a little bit in primary school as well, but in high school in particular, we had more like maths classes, and I found out that I was actually quite good at math. So then I think I got a bit of like a confidence boost there. And yeah, I kind of applied that to everything. If if I actually put time in, I think I realized that time is like a really big thing because it is actually harder and takes longer for me to learn things. I need to put a little bit of time in.
SPEAKER_00Learning's so annoying.
SPEAKER_01Learning's so annoying. Yeah. And also, I think, which maybe isn't a good part of cracking the code. I think what I actually cracked was how to prepare for tests, rote learn, and cram. Like I actually don't think I had there there are some instances in high school, but not like they they were almost accidental, where I was learning things because I was curious. Most of the time I was learning things to get a good mark to get a, I don't know, endorphin boost and have people pat me on the back. So, and generally because people said that helped your future and I wanted a good future. So I cracked the code in some ways of being able to learn better, but I'm not actually sure it was the right code that needed to be cracked.
SPEAKER_03So, what you're saying is because there was such a strong connection between grades and your self-esteem, which in primary school was just a little bit in the toilet from what you're explaining. And because you were able to crack that code of putting the time in, doing the rote learning, getting the grades for the tests, you got the patents on the backs, you got the endorphins, and you felt good about yourself in high school because of that strong connection. So what's the message that you're telling educators, other students, human beings generally, about that connection?
SPEAKER_01I think well, in terms of educators, my what I would ask them is what you'd want young people leaving school with. Like what how do you want them to feel? And if you want them to feel like yeah, the value is tied to their grades and they must learn this specific thing because someone somewhere decided that they should learn it, and it's not actually driven by any interest that they have or very minimal, um, then that's something that we can leave with. Or like, would you rather leave people with like a genuine curiosity for learning and finding out more and also the tools to then learn whatever they want in the future and be able to kind of follow that through? I think, yeah, I think it's it's pretty um what the word is. I don't think it's great that school is kind of setting people up to be competitive, tie their value to outcomes, um, and generally says you won't be successful in life if you don't do well at school, which is just so incorrect. Um, and there's so much more to life than random tests, and obviously some of it you do need to learn, but the weight I think that we put on at school is is higher than it needs to be.
SPEAKER_03So interesting. All right, let's pivot and have a think about what is it that you use in your life now that you learnt at school.
SPEAKER_01To be honest, I think that lesson that we've already spoken about, about how I knew if I put in hard work that I would kind of get results. I think overall, although the hard work that I put in was for kind of rote learning and things, overall that was a key message that now is just part of my attitude, which I definitely still use today. And there was a class that I really loved, um, called Health and Human Development. I don't know if it's still running as a VCE subject, but sure it is. It is okay. Well, that was one of the ones where like I was able to follow curiosity a bit more, again, kind of accidentally. Yeah. Um because I was just genuinely interested in it, and it was such a great subject, and to be honest, I think it should be compulsory for everyone because you learnt so much about what health needs there are and sustainability goals and poverty, and then how that looks across the world. And I think, especially in Australia, we can be in such a silo, and it's really interesting as well, because that was actually a subject that was seen as a bit of a bludge subject that like not so smart students would go in to just get like an easy mark. And it was actually one of the ones that impacted me the most. So, again, it goes to show that like the things that we put value on, like I don't know, specialist maths, um, which was actually really fun and I did enjoy. Um, that's not necessarily like gonna be the most interesting thing for everyone. Um, it's sometimes things like yeah, like this health and human development class that honestly changed my worldview and then put me on a course of like wanting to do more impact and yeah, work in that space.
SPEAKER_03That's so interesting. And interesting that you say that it it's one that schools might consider to be more of a core piece of learning for everybody. So, in terms of core learning for everybody, is there anything that you've had to learn since school that you feel like you actually probably could have learnt it at school? So, what in life have you had to learn?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but I've listened to some of the other podcasts. I don't know which ones will be out in which order. Um, but a lot of people have kind of spoken about like financial literacy, uh taxes, how to get access to the welfare system, which I think are all really important and completely agree with. I think those should probably primarily be um, because we live in a capitalist society, those should be like so key for any person to learn as part of their core learning in school. Yep. Um I would say as well, I guess less like content-wise, because I don't know, content maybe it's because of me and my dyslexia, but like it fades. It's it's not necessarily that you're going to learn that to remember the Pythagoras theorem for the rest of your life or what's in COS and whatever the other one is. Yeah, that one um what those are and what you do with them and everything. Um I'm not saying they're bad. I think I think that that learning that is really is really helpful and gives you a good way to learn how to learn. Um, but what I would say I learned that since that's less content-wise and more out in the world is that everyone's kind of on their own journey. Like, particularly being in my 20s at the moment, it's so accepted at the moment that everyone is on their own journey. Like, some people are having babies, some people getting married, some people buying houses, some people are traveling, some people are running their first marathon, um, some people are living across the other side of the world. Like everyone's doing such different things. Um, and that's really accepted. And I think in school, particularly the 13 years, you're kind of it feels like you're kind of expected to be at the exact same place as everyone else in every single year. And if you're not, then there's something wrong with you, or or you're excelling really well and then pat on the back. Um, but yeah, I think that's something that I've learned since that I wish like I knew when I was young and got that everyone's on their own path and journey, and it looks completely life, just looks completely different for every person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and I've also learned how to build relationships, which has been really great, and kind of in it sounds a bit wanky, but kind of in an authentic way to me. Like, I think particularly at uni, I learned a little bit about like networking and things, and it always felt a little bit icky. But now, since leaving school and education, like I feel like I've had the time and space to just learn how to be myself and talk to people in a way that's authentic to me and build relationships where I care about people, and then also maybe I might need to ask them for help in future. Um, but I've really loved that, and also I think this is more a message, I guess, for um to to leave school with that I think would be really helpful is that everyone's always preparing for life. Like we're always, we never like I feel like there's this mentality that we at 18 are thrust into the world and then we're adults and you've been preparing for adulthood, and now you are an adult, and so you've accomplished it and you're there. Whereas I and a lot of people smiler than me um would say that like we're always preparing for adulthood, we're always thinking about what we want to be when we grow up, even if we're like 65. Um, and yeah, we're always preparing for life. And I think that was more of a message so that you can keep that learning, like it means that you've got that kind of like mindset of I'm constantly learning. I'm not, I'm never done. Um, which I think is is really if you get if you get that right, it can be really fun to keep learning and growing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so interesting and such an inspiring way to say it too, to have fun continually preparing for life, because it doesn't stop until realistically you die. So let's just enjoy preparing for life all the way through. And because there's such a big piece of the puzzle of before school, after school, and during that 13 years, you're not driving and you're generally living at home, which might continue as well. But there's more of a sense, even if you are living at home post-18, that you're more your own person, you're doing your own things, you're potentially contributing to the house in different ways, and everyone's got their different ways of that. But it's such a sharp line, isn't it, in the sand? And to see that the lifelong learning happens beyond that. And then the other things that you were talking about that could potentially that you've learnt since school and maybe could potentially be brought into the school learning space to some degree, because you don't want to necessarily prepare every single thing for life because life goes on. But the things that you were talking about were relationships and how to form those really authentic relationships. And then you were also talking about um I forgot it. There was another one. Relationships and everyone's on their own journey. Everyone's on their own journey. Amazing. Because you're right, in the school system, everybody's in the same room with the same blackboard and the same teacher doing the same roughly material, um, especially in high school when you've got textbooks and you're literally looking at the same page in the same room with the same people. And then all of those other things, which is like taxes and financial preparation and things, that's relatively easy to do. Do you have any clues? How would you as a teacher? And you don't have to answer this, but would you have any clues? How would you as a teacher help students to understand that everybody in the in the room is on their own journey and everybody's journey is valuable? And also how to build relationships in an authentic way. Any clues?
SPEAKER_01I can have a go. There's definitely smarter people than me out there in the world. Um, some of them I've listened to and so have taken on their thoughts, and some of them will I haven't heard yet and don't know. Um, I want to start by saying, though, that I realise how much is asked of teachers. I realize that the curriculum is such a minefield. I think my dyslexic brain would actually like die if it um had to read one of those. Um and then you've also got people breathing down your neck, like parents and the principal, and then you've got like a large group of people who have all different needs, and you're trying to be person-centered. So I yeah, firstly, like I get I don't want to put more pressure on teachers. I realize that they do a huge job. Some of them um better than others, but I realize that a lot is awesome teachers. I would say um to answer your question, clues of where to start, it's a little bit radical, and I realize again, it's probably just it's obviously just my view. But I'm really into values and getting to know what people's values are and helping that, helping use values to then make a decision. Um, I think if we started and gave kids the opportunity to figure out what do they care about, what are their values, give them the time and space, teach them how to make a decision based on that value. Like if, for example, like even healthy eating, like I actually think that nutrition is a really important thing to learn as well. But again, I don't want to put a laundry list of what teachers should add. Um, but if you had a value of I want to be able to, well this isn't particularly value, but a value of family and you want to have grandkids. I don't know if you'd know that if you're like eight, but anyway. Um and then know that like, oh well, if I eat McDonald's every day, I might not be able to pick my grandkids up um by the time I'm like 70. So today maybe I'll actually have a sandwich instead or something. I think I I just think if we focused on values, then we'd enable people to make better decisions about their life overall. And then also those decisions would be authentic to them, they would be based on what they overall want their future to look like, and I think that's building their kind of life in a way that's not necessarily has to be different to other people, but just is themselves. It might be similar to other people's, um, but they've chosen it. So it's the autonomy of I've decided this based on my values.
SPEAKER_03So I think for me that would be where it'd start. That's a really interesting way to explain it because schools are often using values and see values as part of what they're doing in their education. But the way you explained it was to encourage each individual young person to find their values rather than to be told these are the school values and you're not doing it because you've just done this and that's not aligning with that value. So it's almost the opposite direction from the way schools currently do values, to allow students to explore what values there are in the world and what is meaningful to them and put that priority and then to link their actions to those values. And I'm pretty sure we've listened to the same podcast somewhere along the line because this just sounds so similar to it. It's one of the Imperfects podcasts with the psychologist where she talks directly about values and choosing to make your decisions about how you want to live based on your values. Are you thinking about that podcast as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, pretty much everything I say is related to an Imperfects podcast.
SPEAKER_04Shout out to Imperfects.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, they do they do amazing things too. All right, let's bring it all together. And I'm really interested in just a couple of sentences that you would like, if it was like a sound bite or an out a clip of this, what would you like teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policy makers to hear from you about education?
SPEAKER_01The shortest one I can probably pull out is if we aren't being playful with learning, then we're leading with fear. And that's also from the public's podcast. It is. It sounds very feeling pro to me. Yeah, it's the most recent one I listened to that has also changed my life and been really helpful. But I think, um, yeah, I and going back to that kind of question that I asked before, how do you want young people to walk away from school feeling? Do you want them to feel like their worth is tied to their ATAR of their job and comparing themselves to other people? Or is it a love of learning that means no matter what, you want to learn more and seek out like new opportunities and kind of achieve whatever you set your mind to? I think at the moment a lot of it's fear-based, a lot of it's I must do well, I must be good. Um, or if I'm not doing good, I'm just not good at this. Um whereas it should be fun. Like we should like learning is super interesting, and I think that's something that I actually came away from my 13 years, um, maybe missing was that I'd kind of killed the curiosity of learning because it became such a um machine to just learn, get ATAR, get good grades to go to the uni degree that I want to do, and then who knows what after that, yeah. Um, rather than like a genuine just curiosity and interested in learning and seeking like a better version of you the next day, rather than getting 100%. Like uh recently, as you know, I've been learning salsa, and it's been such a fun way as an adult to learn something. And obviously, sometimes I do compare myself to other people, I'm like, wow, they're so good, and I'm not there yet. But like now, in this mind, if you frame it as like a playful learning, then you see it as oh, I want to get there rather than oh god, they're much better than me, so I should never doubt scan. Oh, and seeing like, oh, I couldn't do that skill before, but now I can. I think, yeah, I I think that would be my message to school leaders.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's all do salsa. Let's all do salsa. Connect the mind to body. It's great, it's so fun.
SPEAKER_03There we go. Having had this conversation, what do you now think about your 13 years in school-based education? Was it well spent?
SPEAKER_01I think they were well spent enough, but they could have been better spent.
SPEAKER_03There we go, perfect. And what's next for Lucy?
SPEAKER_01Salsa and salsa, yeah, that's the main thing at the moment. It's a question I'm wondering too, what the future holds. I'm I'm hoping to study in the UK, but I'm waiting to hear back on getting funding because it's very expensive to study as an international student and to live in the UK in general. Um, but generally going talking about the Imperfects podcast, I've been working on kind of the belief that whatever happens next, I've got the potential to build a great life no matter what. So we'll see, we'll see what the future holds. I'm as curious as anyone else.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Bring curiosity and see what happens. That's such a great attitude. Thank you so much for talking to us, Luce.
SPEAKER_02No worries, it's been really fun.
SPEAKER_03That was so interesting. If we aren't playing with learning, we're leading with fear. I just think this whole concept about playing and being in that spirit of play is such an important part of being human that we do tend to forget. And I think as educators, we tend to forget it too. So I really want to highlight a couple of things that Lucy has put forward. Obviously, she talks about her dyslexia, and thank you, Lucy, for being willing to share about what it's been like to be diagnosed so much later in life with dyslexia and be able to reflect, now you've had that diagnosis, on the previous work in school that and previous experiences really in school. So the beautiful story about the dark, I think that will stay in everybody's hearts. But that real journey to crack the code and what the code was, and then really whether the code was actually worth it in the end. So the code was effort and time makes results, and Lucy figured that out in early secondary school and became really um successful in her schooling at that point. But what she later reflects on, and it's something that I think about a lot as well, is grades and their connection to self-esteem and that ultimate grade of the ATAR. Is that what it's about? Because if we're looking at uh education being for life and education being lifelong, it doesn't by any means stop when uh we finish our 13 years in school-based education. It's uh the possibility of school-based education to set us up for continuing to learn the things that we want to learn, including salsa and including deeper things like authentic relationships and how to find your own values, not just the values that the school has chosen that tend to be a little bit imposed, perhaps. So, curiosity and tools to learn. There's so many really deep and interesting pieces of the puzzle that Lucy brings to help teachers, school leaders, curriculum designers, and everybody to really consider what is it that school-based education is providing so that our young human beings can live their best lives. Another piece that I think was just uh golden in Lucy's uh reflections about school-based education was that everyone's on their own journey. It's uh a piece that uh I think human beings generally tend to feel isolated. We are in our own heads, and that's very natural because it's our own thinking that we're hearing nearly all day, every day. And we don't necessarily find out what is in other people's heads and what they're thinking, what their aspirations are, what their worries are, what their connections or all of the richness of being human. We're all on our own journey in terms of what we're doing and in terms of what we're thinking. And that diversity is something that's come through in other podcasts I've noticed, about how each person in the room is a unique individual and the people the teachers that those people have most appreciated are the teachers that connect directly with them and their uniqueness. I just want to bring forth a short quote from one of Guy Claxton's books before we finish. In his learning power approach, teaching learners to teach themselves 2018, Guy Claxton labels a lot of the sorts of things that Lucy was talking about being curious, being proactive, being intrinsically motivated, independent-minded, thoughtful, open-minded, adventurous, robust and resilient, critical and skeptical. He says that education ought to be a proper preparation for life in a tricky world, not just a blind obsession with grades. I think if I had to find one place in a book that summarized Lucy's experience in education and the way that she's reflected on it, that might be the quote. Thank you again to Lucy. It's been wonderful. I hope that educators are finding this incredibly interesting to actually hear the voices of our young adults talking about their life in education and possibly making changes. What in this episode resonated for you? What actions might you take as a result? I warmly invite educators or anyone to share their thoughts by emailing 13earswellspent at gmail.com. That's 13 is a word, not a numeral, and all in lowercase, no spaces. Also, if you are between the ages of eighteen and thirty ish and would be willing to share your story, please also get in touch via email. Thanks for listening. I hope you'll tune in to the next episode too. Bye for now.