11 Riley

Riley's story offers insight into how anxiety came up for him, the thinking and attitudes that he himself, his family and his teachers found that enabled him to work with and his incredibly high level swimming achievements. Riley was able to leverage both the pressure and the competition of sports to help with learning at school. It is through relationship first that motivated him to improve, with teachers who were able to get the balance right.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

But definitely for who I am, school taught me that it's okay to have worries, it's okay to be unsure, but what it's not okay is to just give up and do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Was the 13 years or so that you spent in school-based education well spent? The idea comes from Guy Claxton, who wonders if young adults would say it is 13 years well spent. Well, he said 12 because of the British education system. As we listen to the stories of young people, 18 to 30-ish, who have begun to live their lives, their reflections on school-based education seem to be bringing up some themes. I'm very aware that this is a small sample size and it is dependent on my networks, which means it is not yet a representative group. I'm also aware that schools change and hopefully improve. So the experiences of someone who is 18 to 30 might not be the same as the experiences that they might have if they were in school now. Nevertheless, I think there are some interesting ideas to reflect upon. Could schools, for example, do more with teaching the sorts of life skills that are being suggested by guests in this podcast so far? Could teachers and leaders be more attuned to the connections being made with the humans in the room, particularly those who might have various learning challenges or feel out of place? My hope is that educators listen and use these ideas as a point of reflection. It is certainly making me think. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. If you would like to share your story or know somebody who would and are 18 to 30 years-ish, please email me, 13 Years Well Spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we get into this episode, I would like to acknowledge the Ganai Kennai and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded lands where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would also like to thank my partner Gary for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. I'm most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us. And please do share it with others so that we all might consider how these stories might mediate our thinking about school-based education. Let's get into it. Our guest today is Riley. Riley went to primary school at a government school in regional Victoria. For secondary school, Riley went to a government school in the same area. Riley is now 22. Hi Riley!

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Hello, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah, that's cool. Thanks for coming on. I think do you feel like your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I think that school is important. I think that my 13 years personally were well spent. I think that for me it was a comfort thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Growing up, definitely kinda early childhood, I was very much of an anxious kid.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Which obviously growing up I wasn't aware of. But yeah, I had moments where I guess as a kid I would like my routine, and any interruption to that, I guess, would make me uncomfortable, upset, emotional. Mum and dad wouldn't know why. Moving into school, it gave me that reassurance that with school everything changes, kids change, classes change, and it's definitely has made me grow as a person, academically and I guess developmental-wise.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Really?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

I think that was just like a school, it's very much of a safe haven. Like you have the same kids in the same class for a whole year. You know what's expected of you, you know who's going to be there, what the expectations are in different classes. And they say that school is like you have to go to it. You have to be expected to do certain things. But I guess with school, it's very much of a place you can flourish and you can develop as yourself. So for me, school 13 years definitely was well spent. Made some good memories, good friends, still in touch with a fair few of them. Um, obviously, moving forward, education will be more in my life as I get older, so it's definitely been something that I can enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Do you think you might move into a higher education degree or something in the future?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, so I'm definitely gonna continue studying in education, and then eventually I will move up into more accessible ways to discover education for kids that can't do that. I would hope so, and then definitely having more of an input in how education is viewed. I think is quite a vital thing. And obviously, being rural, I didn't have many male role models growing up. So my school was very small, very female dominant, didn't have any male primary teachers, had very few, for me, male primary high school teachers that were of impact, a lot more female. So a couple of students that I'm aware of growing up have turned not very nice, and I think they had needed that kind of role model growing up in education. So I think that not having that role model home, not having that male presence, especially in early primary school years, definitely has an impact on how you develop and grow as a person.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

I'm sure education people out there will be going, my goodness, Riley is actually what we were hoping to achieve. That he's flourished at school, that he's had that social confidence and school is a safe place, and so many of those things are what education people are just aiming for generally. So nice to hear. So tell us a bit more about a school experience. Can you think of something in the primary school area, maybe something in class that had some sort of impression on you, just digging a little bit more into that?

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yep. So for me it was very much, I think it was maybe middle of primary school. So I can remember quite clearly that I had a group of good friends at primary school, and I had a good classroom teacher, had her from prep, grade three, and then into grade six. So I had her three times throughout primary school.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

So and she was a graduate teacher when I first had her. So had her first class, she was quite overwhelmed, and then I watched her. Now looking back, she got more confident, more confident.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

As a student, it was very much I turned to her for if I had issues. So I had mates in the classroom. I remember one of them left halfway through the year, and I was quite upset because he was like my best friend.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

So then when I had those concerns, she was able to read me better than most teachers could. So I was in distress and she said, clearly something's wrong. She put the two and two together. Then for me it was that she was able to encourage me to talk about it. I was very much of a shy kid at school, which compared to now is very different. But at school I was very much of a if I was unhappy or concerned or didn't understand something, I kind of just shut down. Didn't talk, didn't really negotiate or even discuss with people. But how I was feeling, I was just kind of like, nah, I don't want to do it. And I'd cry. Alright, do nothing.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

So the evidence that she was tuning into for you was actually a sort of silence rather than playing up. Playing up, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

For me was that I wasn't an overachiever or an underachiever. I was very much an average student. So for me, sit in the classroom quietly was wasn't out of the ordinary. I wasn't one that would play up, I wasn't one that would do nothing.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

So what did she notice, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 8:37

It was very much that I was not talking to her. For me, it was like I would have a chat with her, I'd see how she'd say, How are you? and say good, and I'd go on a little tangent because I was confident with talking to her. I was happy to have a conversation with her compared to other teachers, I'd just be like, yeah, I'm good. And that was it. So for her, she was able to tell from academic-wise I was still okay. I talked to my friends every now and again, but I just wasn't in the classroom as comfortable as I usually was because I didn't have that friend in the classroom with me. So she could tell that I wasn't not interacting, but I wasn't giving my full attention. There was something else kind of bothering me. And my responses were blander, my body language wasn't inten I wasn't paying attention.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

So I was distracted. And she could tell just by simply looking at me, doing my schoolwork, that I wasn't a hundred percent there. So for me, obviously going further, being more attentive in other students as I'm progressing through life, I guess. Yeah. Seeing how other kids and picking up on little quirks can affect the long run.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Because I think if she didn't pick up on that, I might have been a kid that might have developed anxiety or might have not been able to communicate effectively or not been able to be aware of, hey, this is happening. Can this affect how this like my future progresses in the classroom or something like that? Like for me, it was very much anxiety wasn't something I was aware of. Like my parents never spoke about it, never really talked about it because like I talked to them. So for me, anxiety was the unknown. I didn't know how something would affect me in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

So you seem to be more aware of anxiety now.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Where did that sort of awareness come from? And then once you became aware of that anxiety, how do you how do you then look at that backwards? Because you said in early childhood maybe you were anxious but you didn't realise, and then yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Yeah, so it was it definitely started at school. I'd be nervous about something like I said, my friend might not be at school or public speaking, so talking to other people I teachers, tests were a big one. So when I was younger, I would what my parents call have I had a s I complain of a sore hip. So my side was sore, my stomach was cramping. And mum and dad were like, Well, you're fine at school, some something must be wrong. So we got scans, everything else was cleared up. It didn't come until I said I was worried that two and two came together that okay, you're worried about this, this is reaction. So for me, it was whenever I'd feel anxious or have nerves, I'd think, okay, this pain is because I'm worried about something. So I would sit there and say to myself, what am I actually worried about? And it took me a couple years, probably until about grade four or five. And it happened in grade two. So it was very early on that I was like maybe a year that I'd have these random pains and like jabbing, like I'd be short of breath, like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

And I'd be more and more upset. And then obviously a couple of times it happened at home because something at school was the next day. And mum and dad came to the conclusion that I think you've just got anxiety. And I was like, Well, what is like I don't know what that means. Yep, yep. As a child, you'd never really do. And it took me, like I said, a couple years to get to the hang of it. Like, I'd lay in bed, I'd think about something at school the next day. Oh, my pain's like my pain's back. Okay, what is it I'm worried about?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

And then I'd go through the process of talking myself out of it, and then I'd be fine.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So then it's so insightful that you're able to do all that for yourself. And obviously, you've had some support with your parents and that particular teacher. Was she aware that you had some anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 12:01

She was aware, but she never gave me a reason to know about it. So I like that for her, is that she very much knew I was an anxious child, but never used it as an excuse or brought it to my attention as a child because I think it's very impactful. If you give something a label, such as anxiety, they'll use it in other ways in regards to let's just say they know they have anxiety, they have something coming up, they'll build up, build up, say, I have anxiety, I can't do this. Yeah, and they use that as something that is a barrier. They use that as something that they can't get get past.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

So for me, I'm very grateful that she knew I was anxious, didn't shelter me from it. So she's still expecting me to do this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yes, I was maybe didn't sleep well the night before, I would get worked up in class. And she just wouldn't say, You have anxiety, calm down. She's like, what's the matter? And she taught me through it.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

So for me, as I've progressed, I've used that strategy of just talking about it. If I'm upset about something, like physically upset, even to this day, like something could happen and I'd be physically upset.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Talking about it, explaining it, breaking it down, by the end of the conversation, I'm I've understood it. I'm like, okay, like I can understand why this has made me upset. These are the reasons. This is how I'm going to get better for moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Wow. So cool. That is really, really cool. Secondary school. How did anxiety and other things show up for you in secondary?

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah, so for me, it wasn't actually in school that I felt anxious. By the end of grade six, I was upset obviously to move, big change. And my parents were aware of that. I was more aware of that at grade six that I was gonna be nervous. And for me, it was I had friends still moving to the school. So that was for me, okay. New school, new teachers. You do your open days, you do your orientation days. You're like, I know the school, but I have friends that'll be there. Yeah, we'll be in the same class, I'll be okay. Yeah, for me, anxiety was actually my sport. Oh. So obviously, I used to swim competitively, and I got that obvious. I started I started competing swimming at the probably age of about maybe 11. Yeah. So I was always in like swimming lessons and squad. And for me, it was grade six, so I stepped up a level. So I moved up to the development squad, so competitive swimmers. We were training four or five times a week with, and for me it was I didn't know the kids, so that was another level of trust I had to build in myself that I will be okay. So as I started, I was like, okay, I can make connections with people. There was a really good man I had there, and we went through all the way through until 18 together. So at the start, it was good. I had a friend and I progressively made more friends. My confidence grew in the sport, and then it got to about I reckon the age of 13, 14, and I got to a national level. So I got top like inter-Australian levels, and I was competing really well, and I got really good at one of them, which was the 100 free style. And I remember my first nationals, it was in Adelaide. I only went up for two swims, so it was 103 and the 53 and a relay. So I had two individuals and a relay, I loved the relays because I had other teammates with me. Got to my individuals and I just flopped. I woke up on the first day, had the 53, and I didn't eat breakfast. My race was about till midday. Didn't eat my breakfast, didn't sleep well, didn't talk to the coach before my race, had a really bad warm-up, got to the event and I just swam horrible. Didn't do well. Yep. Felt bad, parents went all the way to Adelaide for me to watch me swim over time. And I remember my coach said to me afterwards, How do you how do you how was your preparation? I said, Well, not great. He goes, Well, why? I'm like, Well, because I didn't do these things, these things, things things. He goes, Why didn't you do those things? I'm like, Well, I didn't want to eat, I couldn't sleep. He goes, What can you do to prepare better? And he just said to me, like, Were you anxious? Were you worried? I was like, Well, yeah, it's a big event. And he goes, What do you have to lose? Yeah. It's like you're not expected to meddle, you're not expected to win, you just gotta do your best. So then it took me a couple years. I did it a little bit by myself. So then nationals finished. The hundredth room was a bit better. I did it, managed to get breakfast, still didn't sleep well. It's then got to the next year, and I made nationals again. So we have nationals in April, we had states in January. So it was at state championships, and I made the final, so top eight in um Victoria. And then it got right before the race, and I went and threw up all my food in the hundred. Went and threw up, was jagging, couldn't keep it down, got behind the block, so I was like, good little shakes. I remember jumping up on the block, I splashed myself. I was like, couldn't do it, couldn't do it. I was literally about to throw up before the race, standing out there in front of all these people, got on the block, and I was absolutely fine.

unknown 16:38

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Nothing just went absolutely away, and I was like, okay, like as soon as I got to that block and they got us ready, I was like, oh, like I'm absolutely fine. And I swam really well. So I said to myself that when I get onto the block, when I get to that moment, I'll absolutely be fine. I've just got to get there. So for me, it took a couple of years because I put so much pressure on myself that I was quite good at that event. I was quite fast, I was ranked quite well.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

It was like there is an expectation. And for me, it wasn't even the people watching me. Yeah, it was just that there were eight other people or seven other people around me that wanted to win as well, that were gonna be me. And I was like, had all this training, mom and dad put all this time in, and I got to that block, I was like, oh, I'll be fine. I did well, and that for me was I just had to care less about how everyone else perceives it and more how how I perceive it.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

And that's such a key piece.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

So then going through high school was a breeze because I was exact same as everyone else. So it wasn't any better, it wasn't any worse, I was just with everyone else. So my sport definitely wasn't more of an anxiety thrill.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Because it was such high stakes for me. Like you go, you train six months for 50 seconds of racing. Like you could spend all this time and you could do the one wrong thing, and then your whole race is gone. All that training's gone. So for me, it was school was very much of a I can build up, I can train, train, train. And then when it comes to these one tests, I will be ready.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Because there's time to fix it. There's time for me, a race, the you got no time for error. In a test, I can, oh maybe that's not right, I'll come back to it. I can do that later. Yeah, yeah. I don't get worried, I don't get stressed. Because for me, it was I put myself in high pressure situations earlier. So education at school became not easier, but less anxiety-based. My teachers knew that. They knew that some kids at school would put pressure on themselves when it came to school.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

They would build that because they thought they didn't have time, they didn't have this. Whereas for me, they knew that okay, he can do this by himself. There's no need to put pressure on him to perform, there's no pressure to be better than everyone else, because he'll do okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah. So pulling it back a little bit more to the school context, there's some comments that have come through other podcasts that there's a lot of judgment and comparison and um trying to be the best in the class if you want to, or just giving up because you can't be bothered even trying anymore. But that comparison versus your own personal journey in your learning and your own personal growth and things. How was that sort of stuff at school? Or was the sport so strong in that comparison that any comparison that happened in school was just like, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Yep. There's definitely teachers I remember in high school specifically that would say you need to be better than this. Like they they definitely pushed you because they knew your capabilities.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

And definitely in high school, sport did take a lot more priority, so I did stuck off in school, and they would push me because they knew I was competitive. They'd say, Oh, you got whatever on this, you got a 60 on this, but your mate got a 70. It's like, are you gonna are you gonna be better?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

So they were leveraging that competitive.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

They were, they were using that competitive spirit spirit to help me get better, and that did work. It got to the point where I was like, sport's this, but school's this. Like, I need to do better in school. And for me, training every morning, every night, school for me was like, okay, I'm really good in this, but I want to get better in this. And the teachers would use that, they'd say, you can do better, you can do better, especially in behavior. I was definitely someone that enjoyed the social side of school. Once I found my feet, got my confidence, got my people.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

I was very happy to do what I needed to do to just pass. So then they pulled that up on me. They said, You're better than this. We know you try really hard in sport. Let's see if you can try really hard in school. I did try hard in school, and that definitely for some students can be overwhelming. And I think that for high school specifically, to push someone like that, you need to have a relationship around that student. You can't just say to a kid, do better.

unknown 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Because you don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

I think for schools, pushing them and trying to encourage them to do better needs to have that groundwork done first.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

So can you describe what that relationship is when it's done well?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yep. So it's they care. It's not just a job. So for me, high school, more male teachers, more banter, more fun, but there's a time and a place. So to have that relationship, you need to build trust. Some kids it's really hard to build trust.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Especially in high school, big school, I was at 1,500 kids. Not everyone's gonna know everyone. You don't have that one-on-one time. As an educator and being involved in kids, they're very vulnerable. School is something that can be scary for some, can be normal for others, can be something that's just, oh yeah, I'll just get around to it. It can be a job. So for me, it's that to build a foundation, you need to care. You need to have that want to want for them to do better. You want to almost put yourself in that coach perspective of these are my kids, I want to push them as hard as I can, but I wanted to do better.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Thinking about educators who might be listening to this conversation, they're looking for a key, and you're not giving a key, you're just saying you've actually just got to care.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Yep. You've just got to honestly, the key is to just be present, I think. You need to be. There for ups and downs, highs and lows. But I think it's more that the key to being a good educator, in my eyes, is to understand. Some teachers I have through school just didn't understand. Right. Which isn't anyone's fault. But sometimes they just look at academics, they look at success, and then sometimes those kids that could have success could have high achievers. They just aren't looked after, they don't care enough to want to help them through the harder parts.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

So I had So it's the person, not the grades.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Exactly. It's the person. Looking at them on a chart, you can see results. Yep. Yep, this person's doing well, this person's doing well. But you strip the results away. You've just got a person basically. And to actually want to help that person, you need to understand and care. Like it's okay to have really good results in a classroom, but if you've got kids that don't want to be there, they're just doing it because you've told them to do it. They're not going to be efficient in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

So one of the reasons I've wanted to start this podcast in at all is because a lot of schools identify their version of success as being through those tests, especially the high stakes, NAPLAN and ATARS scores in in VCE and things. But I've always seen school as being a place which is supposed to set you up for life. And in theory, schools say that they're setting people up for life, but the measurement tends to always be those achievements, those results and the academics. So that's why I want to take people like you who've been in life for a while and can are not too far away from their school experience to reflect back. Well, what has school set me up for in life and how's that going for me so far?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

For me, it's definitely it didn't set me up for life.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

I think for school it gives you a little bit of a head start. So someone that obviously isn't educated, it's harder to start life if you don't have that groundwork. You don't have that, okay. I know what I want to do. For me, school is very much primary school, it's very developmental.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

You're setting up social cues, setting up emotional, being able to socialise, all that kind of stuff. Learning's important. High school, you're building on knowledge, you're building on trying to understand further education in regards to let's just say buying a house. They always say buying a house, getting taxes, getting a job. There's so much emphasis on so far, even VCA, year 12. Most of the kids that I know, we didn't go straight to uni. We got the ATAR, but we didn't use it.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

I wasn't the smartest kid going around, but yet I'm still looking to do education. I've got mates that didn't even want to do VCE, got their number. Oh yeah, got my number. They've gone into a completely different direction that required a higher ATAR. And I think the ATAR is very much labelised as something you need. You can only do once, which is true, you can only get one ATAR, but it doesn't actually matter if you don't let it matter.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

So for me, it was very much I got a score I wasn't happy with. That's okay. Is there pathways? Is there ways I can get into what I want to do? And there was.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

So when it came down to it, there was so much pressure on study, study, study, you got one chance to do this, one test, which will determine what you want to do forever, which isn't the case. So that's where I think anxiety becomes an issue in late early adults where they're 18, they had all this pressure to be a doctor or whatever they wanted to do, didn't get the score, their life's done. That's where it stops at 18 because they didn't get what they wanted. Whereas they don't look at the long run where they can do placement hours, they can go into a different degree, they can do something that they might enjoy more.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

And I've had I was someone that enjoyed year 12, but I knew what I wanted to do, so I didn't stress about the exams. I enjoyed year 12. And some people say that, oh, you didn't try hard enough. I'm like, well, I did try, but I knew what I wanted to do. And it wasn't that I didn't want to get the highest score, I just knew that there was other ways that I could get there. It wasn't the quickest way.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Was it a life balance choice as well or a social life balance?

SPEAKER_02 26:18

It was definitely for me, I always enjoyed being busy. So my sport did stop in year 12. I took a break from swimming and I turned to coaching. So work became a bit more of a priority. Still school, but I was kind of balancing both. But it was definitely more that once I finished year 12, I knew I wanted a gap, I wanted a break. I wanted to kind of just figure out who I was, besides put on a uniform and going to school from 9 a.m. till 3:30 in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Like I wanted to really understand what being an adult was. So I got multiple jobs. Parents are really good. They said you got a bills at this time to pay, you got a phone bill now, you gotta do this. They put me in the deep end and said, We supported you till you're 18, you've still got a roof to live under, but there's expectations now. You've got to pay for this, you've got to look after yourself.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And very much punishment was a big one. Anything you do now falls on you, you become responsible.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Which school doesn't do.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Especially when you're 12 and you're 18, you're having fun, you're messing around. There's still school to cushion you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

And the world is big and scary. You get a job at 18, you don't get it. That's okay, you're still at school. You finish school, no one's catching you to make sure you're doing your assessments, no one's making sure that you're eating lunch at lunchtime.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

You're very much independent.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

I think that's what schools need to push a little bit more is that independence.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

So a little bit more about responsibility and yeah, like it's good that school schools definitely support you.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

But I guess to a certain degree, obviously being a government school, my teachers were we're not your friends, but we're not your teachers, we're someone you can turn to. So they taught us what we needed to teach. They had fun with us when we were at lunchtime. But some schools, more specifically for me, in swimming, I had a fair few friends, they were our private schools.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

And I felt there was a very vast real life understanding between me at a government school and a friend at a public school private school. Just because I think that private schools, all about results, like I said before.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

All about results. And there were some kids that tried and tried and tried, didn't get the results, and they weren't seen as idolised students. They weren't great. They weren't good students.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

And that impacted their self-esteem.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

That impacted how they affected other situations, how they were socially, how they would be to anyone really.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

And it was kind of for me being that public school kid all the way through primary, high school, even at university now, I'm not at a high-tech university. And then I've got friends that were in private schools all the way through from Kinada High School and then went to Melbourne universities. I find that the difference is that the old saying you were at a public school, you're you must know how to do this, this and this. I'm like, well, I kind of got the same piece of paper as you did at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Your parents just paid more.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

And I just find that they might get a higher number too, but exactly, they might get a higher number, but at the end of the day, if you got a 78R and teaching, and I got a 50 teaching, like 58R, but I still took an extra year to get there, we're working the same job, no matter what you think.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

And I just think that that education in private is very much sheltered. Like you do your schooling, the teachers are telling you what to do. Whereas public school, you have kids that might not know what they're doing, might have trouble at home, lash out, react differently. But that's just not a private schools. If that happens, they're not there, they're not welcome.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yep. Um I want to spin it a little bit at the moment. What things do you use in life now that you definitely learnt at school?

SPEAKER_02 30:00

English, maths, the standards, money in regards to shopping. But really the big thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I want the shopping bit a little bit more. So in terms of shopping, what do you know and how about shopping that you've learnt at school?

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Simple money, like adding money together.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Adding money, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Can I afford this? Yep. Does discounts, I guess. Look at the discounts. But um, yeah, that's really as much maths as I would suggest. Maybe long division, if I'm lucky.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Quite a few people said that they didn't get information about taxes or how to buy a house or how to run a business. Did you get any of that information?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

No. The most we ever got in regards to, I guess, taxes would I guess be that one unit we did for maybe a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

But it wasn't heavily influenced. It wasn't really pushed because we weren't gonna buy a house. It didn't really matter about that. Even as simple as interest. We will learn about compound interest and all that stuff and simple interest, but you don't learn about that when you buy a house. You don't realize you don't chuck it into real-life scenarios. It's that five dollars in your bank account, how much compound interest can you get for five years? Well, what about that loan I got for $500,000?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

That I then have to pay for later on. I can't do that math because you didn't tell me I have to turn to someone else to do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Right. It's a really interesting space. I'm I'm quite keen to understand more about those things. Is there anything that you've learned in life so far that school didn't teach? Yeah, that you reckon school could have taught.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

I think for me would be I don't even know. I reckon mainly the factor of, I guess, that economic side of things, that understanding that of, I guess, buying a house, but you don't hear about everything else that comes with the house. You don't hear about debt. You don't really hear about when you have a house home loan, you need to pay it off quicker rather than waiting the 30 years. They don't talk about when you go for a loan, you need to have this much money at the start of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

So are you learning those things now?

SPEAKER_02 32:08

I learned those things quite quickly in my gap year.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Ah.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

So it was very much of I wanted to buy a house for $500,000. Okay, you need a 10% down payment. Okay, but what does that 10% down payment get me? Well then it gets you the loan.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

It's like, okay, so then what happens when I get all my money? Let's say I have that $50,000 sitting there for a $500,000 house. What do I need after that? Well then you gotta buy get the loan, okay? Then you've got to pay for the land, you've got to pay for everything else, you've got to get all this debt. And then by the time you get all that stuff, you get a house and have all the furniture. You've got $750,000 worth of debt now. Oh, but I only borrowed $500. Yeah, that's the interest building. You've got to pay for the interest, you've got to pay for someone to do all that for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

You've got to have full-time work, you've got to have So what have you done to find out about those things?

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Talk to people older than me is what I've done. I've moved to asking questions. Very much of teachers know a fair bit, but they don't know everything. So finding people that might know the answers or turn to people that might have a better understanding of it than I do. Like at the end of the day, I'm 22 years old and I've got no clue where I would start to buy a house.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

So, what sort of people in your life have you been able to turn to?

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Definitely parents, obviously. I've very much been a kid that enjoys working hard. I like being busy and I had all this work coming in and I had all these savings, and then I was just like, well, you need to do this still, which was as simple as filing your taxes.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

End of financial year.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Didn't even know that there was an end of financial year. Wasn't wasn't aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Oh, end of financial year.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Exactly. You've got to you've got to claim all this stuff on taxes. I'm like, well, where do I claim that to? Oh, you get a tax, you get an accountant. Well, where do I get an accountant? Where do I, what do I claim? What can I claim? It's as simple as like you can claim $200 worth of washing. But what else can I claim? Like do I need to keep interesting. Do I need to keep do I need to keep these receipts? Do I need to go find where I bought this from? Like how long does it last for? They don't even mention that it happens either.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

How other people have suggested something like a life skills class that would be in later secondary in some way? Do you think that's a good idea? And how how might that work?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Later education, I agree with that. More of not of real life scenarios, but just honestly, like what's after school. Like, okay, you get a full-time job, you need to set aside money for this. You need to make sure you have this ready to go for pay for. Simple as even having money for car insurance or Regio.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Those creep on you once a year, once every three months. Like you need to make sure you've got money for that. If once you finish school, do you have a plan of getting a full-time job? Do you have a part-time job? Like, I feel like some kids finish school and they don't have work and they don't have any responsibility. So then they have a car that mum and dad pay for, and then there's like, okay, I need to have this much money. How am I going to get this much money? And I think that for having that class in year 11-12 and making sure that so you reckon 11-12 is 12-12. I think 11-12. I think 11-12. They obviously do year 10 work experience, but let's be honest, like, that's just a week out of school. Most kids see it as a week off.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Definitely when I was at school, it was obviously I had COVID.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

But kids saw it as, oh great, we got a week off to go do nothing. They go work for their dad, they go work for their parents, their uncles, whatever they wanted to do. And I think year 10 work experience, there's not much experience.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

About careers advice.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I definitely think for my school, careers was something you didn't want to approach.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

It was very much of a go talk to the careers team. Do I really have to?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Really?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Because they would have questions we didn't have answers to.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Like, what do you want to do in your life?

SPEAKER_02 35:41

What do you want to do in your life? Do you have you looked at these options? Have you looked at these options? Well, I was like, well, no, because I've been told I need to do my schoolwork.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I don't have time to go look at universities. I don't have time to go look at part-time work. I have to do my school work. So for us, it was careers was something that if you could avoid it, you could get the answer without asking them. Great. Because then you didn't have to go in there, you didn't have to be confronted with answers, with questions you didn't have answers to, and feel like you weren't doing anything. So when you get to year 11 and 12 and they have those careers meetings teams, I feel like they're kind of just setting them up for us anyway. They were setting us up too late. We got to year end of year 11, start of year 12. Okay, what university do you want to go to? Oh, I'm not too sure. I haven't looked at any universities yet. Okay, do you know what you want to do? Well, no. It's like, well, you don't want to go to uni, you don't know what you want to do. Why we have this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

I can see how that might not be helpful.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Exactly. And I think if you had a class where it wasn't talking about the career or a future, it was just talking about what you need to be prepared for.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

As simple as interests, as simple as loans, as simple as paying stuff. Like just being aware that once you finish school, these will come into your life eventually. Are you going to be ready to understand them? Not necessarily do them, but understand them will be a vital part, I reckon, of what they would need to teach. You're not going to expect a 17-year-old to know how to buy a house.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I see no problem with expecting a 17-year-old to know how to buy a house, but you would have to set them up with the information. Exactly. So that they do know that. And you said that you get that information from your parents and other friends who are potentially a little bit older than you, potentially just hitting that buying a house, period, and have have learned a lot more. So if you didn't have those people in your networks, then where would you go for that information? And that's a really hard space to be. What about in terms of your values or your identity post-school? Is that something that like you've got a clear sense of who Riley is and what's important to you?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, it's definitely changed from as simple as last year. It's definitely growing. Um, after school, I had heaps of friends.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Lots and lots of friends. And I was, like I said, a very big school. So I would even go as far as say my group of friends was I'd say 30 people. Wow. So for me, I big parties. I had something like that. I had heaps of friends. Yep. I had a good circle of people I could turn to. School finishes, five, six, seven, eight, nine people drop off. They go to uni, move states for whatever reason, they go get full-time work. Okay, I don't talk to them anymore. Still got these people. Things happen in life, people get older, more responsible, less responsible, mature, immature, so forth. And then I surround myself with other people, more work, like I said, older people, and then more drop off because I don't have time to go out on that Saturday night anymore. I've got to study for this, or I've got to go to work in the morning, so I can't go out till five in the morning. That group gets smaller, and then you've got maybe five more people out of that original 30 that you still talk to in the span of nine months, ten months.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Now that I'm older, even that's even less, probably two or three. But definitely for who I am, school taught me that it's okay to have worries, it's okay to be unsure, but what it's not okay is to just give up and do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

So that's a pretty powerful piece.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, for me, it's very much of I'm someone that if there's something I I'm up unhappy about, well, what's the point of just worrying about and doing nothing about it? If I can fix it or take measures to fix it, then I'll be okay. So then with my social group and who I am, it's very much of I don't want to associate with that, I'm gonna move in this direction, and that's okay. I think for me, it was very much learning to be alone, having that big social group.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Learning to be alone in your own little circle is okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Loneliness is very much something that again school doesn't teach.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

You have Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

You have teachers, you have staff, you have friends, you have family, you got family friends.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

In the real world, outside of school, you've got yourself. You have your family, you have your friends, but at the end of the day, you're all with you.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

So if you're not content with who you are in regards to being alone, and I think everyone has to be alone at some stage in life. I think that's where the most growth happens.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Simple as I'm going through something right now where I have to be alone. Start a new degree at the end of the year. A lot of my friends from uni will be leaving, starting full-time work. Eventually I want to move. Family won't be there. I'm leaving my family still at 22, three brothers, two younger brothers and parents still together. So I've got four people at the house every night.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Eventually I will have to move out. I will have to be by myself, and I'll have to start at a new school, start at a new job. And for me, it's very much for who I am, is very much learning to be comfortable, being uncomfortable. Something new is some school teaches you strategies, new classes, start something new. How do I work through that? Real life definitely blows it up a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

It's a bit more confronting. Yep. But school sets you up to be ready for that.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

And so we're playing a vital role in something that'll be bigger.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, that microcosm of learning how to be uncomfortable with change, learning how to be uncomfortable with being on your own when you used to being with a really strong group of friends. And yet that microcosm has actually worked and transferred into your real world and made it really successful.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

So you're saying of like planting the seed and letting it flourish, I guess. Trying to just, we are here to plant that seed of education. We are creating that person from nothing.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

They come to us knowing nothing. Hopefully, when they leave, they know more about not just like books reading math, but more about themselves.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yep. So you said we and us then. And so far in this podcast, we've talked about you as being the student and me as being the educator. But actually, do you want to say where you're up to in your life in terms of your career?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, so I'm third year of teaching, going into fourth, and I will study my masters in the coming years. But like I said, education will be a big part of my life moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Definitely want to have that impact on those students of providing. I guess for me, I never had that male role model, of providing that male role model.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

And I guess, yeah, there's not many males that want to be primary teachers, because I guess it's not as easy of a And you were saying earlier that it would have been really helpful for you, but also particularly for some of your mates who perhaps didn't get that re positive male role model to um look up to look up to and potentially move in that sort of direction for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

What is next for Riley?

SPEAKER_02 43:01

Further study. So continue my studies, a couple more years to go. Um, hopefully, eventually with my masters, I would like to move into a bit more of a principal, maybe potentially. I would like to obviously do the years groundwork of doing the classroom teaching, but I would love to teach the teachers more of have a bit more of an input in how some things are done. I think as I'm studying and as I work in education, I can kind of put two and two together.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

But I can also see where there are some flaws in my own experiences. I can see where some children, the curriculum doesn't fit with what I'm learning at university. And that kind of that little bit of clash. Where I guess as you become an educator and a teacher, you kind of work your way around there with specific students. But I think there is room to improve. I think there is quite a little bit of room to improve, and it's constantly changing. It's always going to be changing. But I think having that open mind of it'll it'll all work itself out, we'll figure it out. There's always a way to figure it out. There's not just one set way, there's multiple ways.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

And still swimming, buy a house one day?

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Maybe. Yeah, definitely still coaching. As I said, work with heaps of kids. So we're coaching now and yeah, just buy that house eventually. A couple more years. We'll see how I go.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Yeah, you need a real salary.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah, real salaries.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Real salaries.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Real jobs.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

That's coming, I'm sure. It's not far away in your future. That is really awesome. I'm I love knowing that you've got such a long-term plan. Like the short-term plan's really clear, but the long-term plan is kind of there and it might change, but that's all right if it does.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Absolutely. And thank you so much for being so vulnerable about your anxiety and how that showed up for you, how quickly, really, in comparison to many other people who probably experience anxiety that you were able to put the pieces together and work out a way that really worked for you as a strategy with that.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

That was amazing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

There was such a lot in Riley's descriptions of school life and his life after school to draw from as an educator. Probably for me, the piece that was most interesting was how he experienced his anxiety and didn't know about it at the beginning, and then did know about it and was able to be so self-aware that he was able to notice the physical symptoms, to be able to analyse what it was that was worrying him, and to be able to find a style of self-talk that worked for him. I'm not sure that all of our young people have that degree of self-awareness. And perhaps it's because Riley was able to have that self-awareness that he was so successful in the way he approached his life after he noticed that he did have anxiety. It does make me consider the children that are in the room with me who might have anxiety, might not necessarily be diagnosed with that, and might be compensating for it in ways that may or may not be helpful because they just don't have that sort of self-awareness yet. And therefore, it's on me as the adult in the room and as the teacher in the room to really be thinking about how I can supply the sort of environment that will make that particular young person thrive. So it's a really good piece for me to reflect on. Another part that I found incredibly interesting in Riley's descriptions was the contrast of the sports competition and the school competition. In Riley's experience, it sounds like school competition turned out to be a really positive thing, but he also was really aware that that's not necessarily going to happen well for students unless there is a very strong relationship built first. And it's that relational trust that allows the teacher to push a little bit further so that that student feels safe, perhaps, to extend themselves, feels safe that it's okay to fail, and therefore can move further into achievements in academics as well as within themselves. Riley also reiterated similar themes to what I've been hearing about in other guests, and that is the role of those life skills, is really, really important, and it's not necessarily getting through to all students in our school system. Life skills such as budgeting, how to buy a house, what are taxes and how to go about that. All of those sorts of things, I don't know, it's leading me to think that maybe I could help with some sort of initiative that might provide a sort of curriculum in this area. I know that in the curriculum there's bits and pieces, such as Riley was talking about, in terms of compound interest and simple interest. That definitely happens in mathematics, but it doesn't necessarily transfer into the skill of what is a mortgage or what are shares and how can you leverage compound interest to the best effect for yourself. So it's a curious space, and if you're interested in joining me in this space to have a conversation, see what might happen next, please do contact me, 13yearswellspent at gmail.com. That's 13 as a word, not a number, or you can find me on LinkedIn as Susan Taylor. And finally, I was so excited to hear that not only is Riley studying teaching, but he's got a really long-term plan that eventually he would like to teach the teachers. He would like to be in those positions of leadership, possibly a principal position. I could actually see him in a system leader position where he's got the opportunity to influence how policies are made and how teachers might approach teaching to give the best opportunity for all students. I am so grateful to Riley for this reflection. Please, if you know of other people who would like to be part of this podcast to tell their story, every story is part of the picture. I'm particularly looking for people at the moment who might not be in education because me being in education means it's really easy for me to find other people in education. But people who might be in trades, for example, might not be employed, for example, might be business owners, all sorts of people. Honestly, if you have a story that you would like to tell about your education and your future, please add it in and contact me. 13eurswellspent at gmail.com. 13 is a word, not a number. Also, if you're looking up the podcast, as you know because you're listening to it, 13 is the word, not the number when you're looking it up. So please share the podcast with other people too. It means that it will get to the ears of the people who might make a difference to all of the young people in school based education now. And I hope you will join us in the next episode. Until then.