Thirteen Years Well Spent
What was school like for you? This podcast chats to young adults about what, from school they use in life and what they have learnt since. In the cumulative stories of real people, lets find out if school is doing as it claims - prepare young people for life.
Thirteen Years Well Spent
13 Cameron
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Learning can happen in the noise. Not always, but perhaps the teacher's need for control sometimes misses the learning that is occurring through those peer interactions. Cameron's story gives voice to the perspective of young people who are chatty, and points out that this is exactly the source of his success in life.
I was looking for laughs from my mates, you know, trying to be that little bit of a class clown, which, you know, some people might be driven by 100% on a test, but I was definitely driven by how funny I could make a lesson.
SPEAKER_01So was the 13 years or so that you spent in school-based education well spent? The idea comes from Guy Claxton, who wonders if adults would say it is 13 years well spent. Well, he said 12 because of the British education system. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and a leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organisations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. If you would like to share your story and are 18 to 30 each, please email me. 13 Years Well Spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. So before we get into this episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Ganai, Kernai, and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded lands where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I'm most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers, who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who has chosen to spend this time with us, please do share it with others and also let me know what you think of these episodes. And together we can all consider how these stories might mediate our thinking about school-based education. So our guest today is Cameron. Cameron went to a primary school in a Catholic school in regional Victoria, and for secondary school, he also went to a Catholic school in the same place. Cameron is now 30. So, Cameron, overall, do you think your 13 years in school-based education were well spent?
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me. So it's an interesting question because as I look back on it now, um I sort of try and pinpoint things that I learnt at school. And it's like where things that you've learned in life, where do you attribute that to? Um, and I don't know if I can actually say, well, school was absolutely that, but I don't think it was a waste of time. I do think it was um, I do think it was well spent um because it really does set you up for, I guess, the most important years of your life and sort of early adulthood and sort of navigating that. So overall, definitely worth it.
SPEAKER_00Um you wouldn't wanted to not do school.
SPEAKER_02No, definitely wouldn't have, yeah, definitely not. Um, and definitely wouldn't have wanted to drop out early or anything. So I'm glad I saw sort of year 12 through and everything. Yeah. Um, but I think the biggest thing is that there's so much pressure that when you're 17, 18 years old to understand what's next. Right. Um, and that's sort of where I look at it and be like, year 12 was one of the best years of my schooling life from a social aspect and great friendships and everything, but what came next and how I was sort of not knowing what I wanted to do, um, sort of made me look back at it and think, how could have things been different to then lead into whether it was university education or whether it was a career?
SPEAKER_01So, how did that show up for you in those last years of school?
SPEAKER_02So I sort of had no idea um at the end of school, no idea what I wanted to do. Um got my ATAR score and um put in some university sort of um preferences. Um what sorts? Uh so I looked at I was looking at doing like paramedicine, which absolutely looking back on now was there's no chance. Um and then sort of just fell into doing commerce at um at university. Okay. Um lasted a year, hated it. Um, you know, I I don't think university was for me. So then I ended up going into the workforce and and starting my career before then going to university again and falling into journalism um at Deacon in Melbourne. Um lasted another year and yeah, realised that university definitely wasn't for me.
SPEAKER_00Right. You needed two goes to figure out.
SPEAKER_02It definitely needed two goes to figure it out and a massive hex bill, but um uh that's all done now. So um, and then sort of just forged my way into my career and sort of opportunities where I sort of lasted 10 years at a at a business or at a company. So um if I had to figure it out that earlier or not had that pressure and been able to go into the career knowing that university wasn't for me, um, rather than well, that's the next step. I don't think there's anything wrong in saying it's okay not to go to university and really focus on that career and that professional development because I feel like I learned more in my early years of my career uh about myself um but also about the world than what I did at sort of any of my years at school or as well at university.
SPEAKER_01And that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you. Did you feel pressured to go from school straight into university?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so part of my sort of immediate friend group of five people, um, they all went to university. I had one or two that took a gap year of my close, close mates. Um, my brother went to university. Um, and my uh outlook on my brother was that he sort of just fell into the university degree, and it was never normally something that I would have picked him doing, and I could be totally wrong with that, so you'd have to ask him definitely. But I sort of looked at it like he finished school and just fell into this, and then not that my parents ever put pressure on me to do anything, like they're so super supportive, but I just felt like with my brother going from secondary school straight into to university, I felt like that there was no other way, like my mates were doing it and everything. I was just like, Well, I don't know what I want to do, so let me just go and do this, and you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's good to know it wasn't the school system. Yeah, no, 100%, 100%. So let's get back into some of the school experiences. What are some of those that stood out for you?
SPEAKER_02Um, so if I look as early as sort of primary school, I remember I was sort of having to think about this today, and I was thinking that one of the biggest memories that stuck out to me was sort of on my final day of year six and it being a really emotional day because you got these friendships that you've had, and like I remember my year level, everyone was really close. Um, we're all pretty close mates, and then half of us were going here, half of us were going to that secondary school, and we're sort of all it just was a really emotional day. And for a well, I don't even know how old you are in grade six, what are you? 12 years old. It's a lot for a 12-year-old, and it's like sort of like, oh, I'm never gonna see this person again. And you know, sometimes you you're gonna go to the same school as some of your mates, but uh you sort of remember at primary school like just getting through the classwork as quick as you can or getting hoping that so then you know your lunch breaks come around and you can kick the footy, you can play soccer, you can run around and and get muddy, um, much to mum's disgust. But like they're just the the just I guess the running around and not having any like any pressure or anything at all. It's just sort of like you you're just there.
SPEAKER_01It sort of felt like a bit of a so your purpose for turning up at school was actually to get out and play at lunchtime.
SPEAKER_02100%, yeah, 100%. Yeah, definitely. Um, and then secondary school, much the same, I guess. It's sort of like you feel like there's that little bit more pressure, like you're you know, you're going to school and you're wearing a tie and you've got a blazer and you're, you know, 13, 14, 15, 16, so on. And um at the start you're sort of like, oh, this is a bit serious, and then I just feel like the seriousness dropped off. And it was more of I was always a very much a social person and always there to have a bit of fun, um, maybe sometimes to the detriment of my education, but um yeah, definitely you definitely saw school as a a a social playground.
SPEAKER_01Cool. And there's no reason why it shouldn't be that as well as a little bit of learning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it sounds to me like you did the learning as expected, but your drive really was for the social side of things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. Are there any standout teachers or moments that you'd like to tell us about?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think sort of in my later years at secondary school, um, there was one of our campus directors um who had a lot of belief in me as a student. Yep. Um, and I remember sort of how that went. Um, like, you know, he was sort of relatively new to the campus in sort of a couple of years and you know, spent that time in having those conversations. And I think it sort of did a bit of a a negative effect on me because it's like, oh, you're tracking really well, and I sort of just was like, oh, I can put the feet up a little bit. Um, which and then that was sort of like, you know, I was spending some time in school watching some MBA and you know, turning 18 and whatnot. And it was um, but I just think that like the more people believed in you and didn't get like that we're young adults and everyone's getting their own personalities and becoming different people, and you know, I think the teachers that embraced that more, and I had a couple of like my PA teacher who like sort of embraced that and really I guess invested that time into me and knew how to handle that. Whereas some teachers, I was a bit of a a louder personality, um, and I know everyone's a bit different, but the teachers that sort of shun you for that or just would just crack it instantly, you're just sort of you're instantly just you're on the defense then straight away. Um, and you're just sort of like, well, I'll get what needs to be done, but I'm not doing anything extra.
SPEAKER_01So for the teachers that are like that, what would you say to them? How would you help them to work with a louder child like you might have been?
SPEAKER_02So it's a good question. Um, probably a million-dollar question because I'm sure there's a lot of students like me, and I can understand that it how disruptive it could be. It's like, how do I give advice? How do I, yeah? So, what advice do I want to give? I think just being understanding, and I know that there's like a hard job to do, but like everyone's on different trajectories in terms of the knowledge that they take in or how they take it in. Um, but just being a bit understanding, I guess, of everyone is a little bit different and everyone learns at a different pace. And just because I'm expressing myself as someone that's loud and that I if I have that support to learn in a different way, potentially, I will get the results, which I did show through sort of things like I knew when it came to test time, like I knew how to study, and that maybe I didn't put as much time in it as what other people did, but still being able to get that result, even though in class and in that immediate setting, I didn't show that necessarily.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. So I'm the sort of teacher I think that you're talking about. I do teach languages, and it really is very important with languages that people can hear what you're saying, because that's how you're going to learn something that's a spoken language. Um I've noticed recently though that sometimes there can be arjibhie in the room, a little bit of extra chatter, but the learning is actually going on at the same time. And when I can see that's happening, I will let it go a little bit. But I find that sometimes it flips into becoming quite silly. So I've kind of, as a teacher, need to be monitoring that and need to be keeping a little bit of a lid on it. But when I do see the learning happening, I also am really glad to have a little bit of banter with those people. So that's what you're trying to suggest for us too. Is that, am I getting it right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I think that like, and understand that it is quite a tough job when you're managing, you know, rooms of 20 kids or so that all do have different personalities. But I know one of my probably one of my biggest downfalls was that I was looking for laughs from my mates, um, you know, trying to be that little bit of a class clown, which um, you know, some people might be driven by 100% on a test, but I was definitely driven by how funny I could make a lesson. Right. Which maybe maybe maybe not the best. Um I'm definitely not a model student by any any stretch of the imagination.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so good to know. So, what are the things that you've learned in school that you use in life?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think something that I took into my early career and and that was how to talk to adults. And I've always been very big on that um as a as a younger person, and you know, being able to have that conversation with adults and not being necessarily scared by that conversation. Um, and I think just navigating social situations, like you're thrown into so many different groups, you might have cases where someone doesn't like you, you might have cases where everyone really likes you, but as you navigate sort of through that, you just sort of know how to communicate with different people. And a schoolyard has uh hundreds of different personalities. So I guess not being scared of people really helped me in my career as I went into sort of a more customer service thing uh before moving up sort of the corporate ladder. Um, but just leaning into the my social aspect really held me in good stead and being that bubbly person.
SPEAKER_01So it isn't really any particular lesson that you're talking about, it's just those interactions that happen naturally at school. And because you're a bit more of a talkative person anyway, those adults are obviously going to be interacting with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. So yeah, it's sort of it's a it's a while ago now, obviously being 30. Um, it's being almost 12 years ago. Um, like, yeah, I don't I don't remember any specific lessons or any specific bits of learning, which is uh which I was reflecting on today. It's like I can't pinpoint exactly what I learnt at school. I know I did learn some things, but it's like I don't know exactly what.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. What have you learned since school that you've had to learn because school didn't teach it to you?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think a lot of stuff around sort of the financial aspects of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I remember when I was in year 12, I actually organized one of my good friends who's a financial planner. I actually organized him to come in and do a talk with the Year 12 cohort um because I knew that he did it at another school within the area. Um and that was sort of, I remember getting the feedback, it's like, oh, why is this bloke coming in to talk to us at a recess? But then everyone was like, oh, that was like really helpful. But like that was things like taxes, superannuation, and I did work since I was sort of 15 years old. So you had a little bit of an understanding. And I remember my pop would always tell me that I had to pay board even though I was only earning, you know, $100 a week and whatnot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think just so sort of those little things like money, like what is tax? Why do I have to pay tax? And I guess that real life experience sort of stuff, stuff that you can't like it's gonna be there all the your whole life. Like, why do tax, why does tax happen? Why does and sort of things like certain things about government? Like I don't have a massive interest in politics as it is now, um, and I wouldn't say I'm particularly aligned to a certain political party, but maybe if we learn why that's important, I might be totally different now.
SPEAKER_01Yes, so any clues? Like, imagine you're back to being 14, 15, 16. What sort of ways could it be in your schooling?
SPEAKER_02It's such a good thing because if I transport my back myself back to being 15, 16 years old, and someone wanted to come in and talk to me about politics and tax. Now that I'm 30, I understand the value in that. But if I was that age, I'd be like, why is this happening? And you'd just be like, You're taking up like I need to. You're taking my footage. 100%. So it's like it's it's such a tough one because like I know now with the life experience that I have that it's important, but tell that to a 15-year-old Cameron, and he'll be like, Well, this is a such a drainer, like most things in going to school is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, is there anything that you'd like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, or school policy makers?
SPEAKER_02Um, it's an interesting question. I think Yeah, I don't I don't really have anything off the top of my head that that I'd 100% say. I think curriculum designers, um I don't think education's totally black and white. Like it's hey, there's this textbook that we learn about, XYZ. But I don't know if that's necessarily as important. And I know we get it's it's hard, how do you benchmark learning and whatnot? But in the real world and how I've learned is through a number of different ways. Um, whether that be more interactive lessons, whether that be, you know, listening to professionals rather than just reading things from a textbook and copying them into a document to then read over and over and over before you're tested on how good your memory is. What are some other ways that benchmarking can be done to actually measure learning? Um, and through a more practical sense that you can actually gauge someone's understanding of a topic.
SPEAKER_01Any further clues? Because we would love to hold on that.
SPEAKER_02Jeez, I have I I reckon if I had the answers, I might be uh doing a different career potentially. That's true. Um, and I reckon it's a tough one. Like I think uh like practical benchmarking, and if I look at it from a a um a sporting perspective, because I've been involved in soccer for my whole pretty much my whole life, and you can there's such a tangible way to I guess measure people within sport through skills and through um, I guess benchmarking that way. And you can see kids that are going from you know five years old kicking a ball that can barely do it to being adults and playing senior football, and they can kick a ball and they can do this, and I think just that practical benchmarking at every milestone, you can really, really tell the improvement that someone's made.
SPEAKER_00So more describing the skills and the difference in the skills between not so good and a little bit better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I know, and I know we're sort of split into like with school, you split into subjects, so it's like, but I think sort of the more basics of that, like how do you answer a question, how do you write a sentence and all that is super important. Not necessarily how well you recite the information, because I might be able to read something a hundred times and read it word for word. That doesn't, I don't know if that necessarily means I've actually understood the topic. Just because I can tell you what the textbook says doesn't mean I understand it.
SPEAKER_01So you're saying less about memory, more about understanding, but also the structures of how to put a good sentence together so you get that communication together. Yeah. Sounds really good. I'm going to dive into something else that you were starting to talk about, and that was how you learn as an adult. So can you think of something that you've learned, I don't know, in the last five years or so that you've had to figure out because you didn't know it all. What did you do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I uh recently, uh as eight months ago, went into a career change where I went away from a corporate job where I've been in the industry for 10 years into something totally different where I work in a more sales environment, a more hands-on environment with no experience in that prior apart from um, you know, some casual jobs where I was a salesperson. But um, I guess the only reason that I got the job or and whatnot was because I can talk and I can build relationships. But there's so much more that's involved in sort of a sales process that you really don't have any clue in until you're actually doing it. Because you can go in and talk to someone, absolutely important part of my job, which I can do. But then how do you actually navigate that sales conversation? And I think for me, one of my biggest things is learning by doing and actually being really, really super honest with yourself in reflection and saying, okay, I could have done that better by doing this and getting feedback from people. So whether you take out my boss and have him watch an interaction or vice versa, where I can go watch him have a similar interaction and then have that conversation based on that. Um and just that really honest feedback is super important for me. Um, but trial through error is absolutely important. You and being honest in your reflection and being brutally honest with yourself and saying, you know what, you actually didn't do that too well. This is what you could do differently. But then also when you do it, when you do actually show the change in process based on the feedback that you give yourself, um, being honest and saying, you know what, you've done that really well, and then continuing to purposely, uh, purposefully implement that into future conversations.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so trial and error, getting feedback from other people. Is there any sort of structure of how the sales works best that you access? Like the person who's coming to watch you, surely they've got a sense of this works and that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02Is there a structure that they're following? Yeah, so we sort of have a framework in sort of how to have that conversation. So, like having that framework, but then again, it's like we have that framework that we get given to us and that we talk through. It's seeing that on a bit of pay bit of paper and saying this is the process and these are the questions you can ask, and this is what you can do. But I have had conversations when I ask none of those questions, and you just because the way the conversation every conversation's different, right? Right. But it's good, it's a bit of framework to say this is sort of the steps that you need to take and whatnot. Um, and then you can really notice when you don't take those steps how. Like how much it can fall down as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's that having the framework, but it's really doing the task and the implementation and seeing how it goes, and and yeah, sounds amazing. Alright, what's next for Cameron?
SPEAKER_02Um, I guess just navigating my 30s. Um still welcome to 30s. Yeah, so still um still just I guess navigating uh sort of the career change and and finding my feet there. Um but yeah, I don't really know what's next. I don't really have any sort of long-term goals. Um just yeah, navigate the 30s as best as I can.
SPEAKER_00Sounds amazing. Yeah. Thanks for talking.
SPEAKER_02No worries at all. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yay.
SPEAKER_01The reflection for this one has been quite challenging for me because I am definitely the type of teacher that Cameron is talking about. I find it very hard to work in a teaching environment where I earnestly want people to learn if I'm competing with the audio space with people who are calling out and people who are leveraging the time to increase their social capital. And I do understand in terms of understanding the people in the room as humans who are doing their best in life rather than as learners who are, it's my responsibility to push as far as possible into the curriculum. Actually, the curriculum as a concept is also not exactly accurate, to push as far as possible into their learning potential. So this is the these are the things that I have got out of it. First, that learning can happen in the noise. Learning can be happening in the noise. Yeah, I said it twice because I need to hear that twice. It's not always happening in the noise. I'm very, very aware that sometimes that arjibhie in the room, particularly when they're doing uh independent work where there's some sort of social interaction. Sometimes the social interaction is not about learning, but sometimes it actually is. And when I as a teacher feel like I have to just keep control of how much noise is going on in the classroom, I sometimes miss that there is learning going on. So I'm getting better at noticing when the social interaction is part of the learning and when the social interaction is actually just railroading the learning into a different direction. Now, the second thing that Cameron talked about, which has been really important for me personally to hear, is the impact of the teacher's choice when that child comes into the room who is very motivated, very, very motivated by their social skills. If I come down on them hard, then Cameron was saying he makes a choice to do the absolute minimum, and there's no way he's going to do any more. So it's like his version of getting back at the teacher for just not allowing him to be him. I think I need to hear that because I would like everybody to learn as much as possible. And if my main motivation is for them to learn, then one of the things I need to do is to allow that learning to happen in a way that works for people like Cameron. There are actually quite a few students, people, who I have every single week. And I'm thinking, ah, so that's what's that's what it's like for this person. That's what it's like for that person. And that's the point of this podcast. It's to hear the messages from a human being who's grown up a little bit further, who's more articulate, who's reflected on their own life skills, and be able to see potentially what the dynamics are in the classroom as I go on. So it's for my slash our reflection. Now, another one that I got out of this is that the social skills which might show up as being annoying for teachers, such as calling out in class or class clowns, they are actually transferable to employability. And that's an important piece of the puzzle. Because if the point of young people walking into a school-based environment is to become a functioning citizen in their adult life, actually some of those skills are part of that learning. And me as a teacher, again, needs to relax a touch about trying to make sure that what I've got on my agenda for them to learn actually also embraces those social skills as being part of their development as human beings. So there's been quite a bit that I've picked up from this, and while I've felt frustrated and reasonably so as a teacher, because there are quite a lot of humans in the room, and they need to not compete with my audio space if what I'm saying is important for everybody to hear. So I do need to continue to manage that, but I can manage it in a way that also respects that individual and honours their skills as being very, very relevant to their life, but also society at large. So thank you again to Cameron and all of the people who come on this podcast. If you would like to be a guest on this podcast, please do contact me. 13 Years Well Spent is one word. 13 is a word, not a number, at gmail.com. And if you know of anybody who would like to be part of this, please do contact me. My personal networks tend to be education-ish based. I'm a teacher, it makes sense. So I'd love for people to contact me who are outside of that demographic, I suppose. Particularly people for whom school wasn't great and they haven't gone into a university sort of direction, but more into trades or even not having a job at the moment or any place in life, because everybody's story is part of the picture. I hope that helps. Look forward to the next one. I hope you join me then. See you then.