Thirteen Years Well Spent
What was school like for you? This podcast chats to young adults about what, from school they use in life and what they have learnt since. In the cumulative stories of real people, lets find out if school is doing as it claims - prepare young people for life.
Thirteen Years Well Spent
15 Ella
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Ella's story is a very important piece of the puzzle. She is the school success story. The schools she went to really did set her up for success in life, and Ella brings depth to what that means. The empathy, curiosity and agency she talks about seemed to have been very deliberately cultivated by the schools she attended with specific programs like the Year 12 mentor program. Ella suggests more could be considered in how schools integrate Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander understandings, and perhaps more about interacting without judgement.
And building curiosity about different concepts really does help us stay curious about different people and communities and just the way we live in general. I believe that it all kind of intersects.
SPEAKER_02Was the 13 years or so that you spent in school-based education well spent? As we listen to these stories, I often feel like I've started to get a bit of a theme going with the stories, and then I have a guest who really puts that all to bed and challenges me with a different way of thinking. This guest does just that. The idea comes from Guy Claxton, who wondered on the ERR, the Education Research Reading Room podcast, if young adults would say it is 13 years well spent. I'm Susan Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and leader of languages, but this is not about me or any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. If you would like to share your story and are 18 to 30 years-ish, please contact me through email on 13 Years Well Spent as one word with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. So before we get into this episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Ganai, Kernai, and Banerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded lands where I live. I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people and thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I'm most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leavers, who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who's chosen to spend this time with us. And please do share it with others so we might all consider how these stories could change how we approach school-based education. Let's listen to Ella. Our guest today is Ella. Ella went to a government primary school in Melbourne, and for secondary school, Ella also went to a government school in the same area. Ella is now 21. Hi Ella, overall, do you think your time in education, in school-based education, was well spent? Hi, Susan. It's lovely to be on here.
SPEAKER_01I found that overall I had to think about it. And I would say that my education years were very well spent. When I reflect on primary school especially, I found it was really good at consolidating my love of learning because it's just that's what's been carrying me through university at the moment. I just really like knowledge and I really like being able to apply that. Primary school, those foundation years are really important in kind of priming that. But primary school, very good at kind of letting you be a bit flexible, and I'm really thankful for that.
SPEAKER_02So do you think that flexibility is where that sense of a love of learning came from?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just seeing what sticks, I suppose, was really important in primary school. I would just like you could try anything. That's what they kind of the teachers would kind of lead you to believe at the very least. But they would do their best to kind of give you the options, be like, okay, how do you want to what they would be like, okay, we're doing this reading task today, but how everyone else achieves it is very different. And they understood that quite early on, I suppose. So I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_02Do you have any really specific memories? Like I can imagine like you're already talking about a reading task. Can you imagine a particular book, a particular day? What happened and where did that flexibility come in?
SPEAKER_01Um, I remember something quite specifically. Uh we in about grade six, even then, we were doing those silent reading tasks. It was kind of perceived at the time as quite punishing because oh, we didn't get to talk with our schoolmates. However, I look back on it and go, actually, it's it was challenging us to choose something for ourselves without the influence of others. And like choosing a book, what are we going to do with this time? Kind of like time management, but for 12-year-olds. But I found that really important because I could kind of set aside that time to do what I wanted to with the reading and kind of take control of what I was reading and what I was learning. And I found that really great. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So in that grade six space, you didn't have to do leveled readers, and it wasn't you read this one, then this one, then this one, but you actually had the possibility of choosing your subject that you were reading, choosing fiction or non-fiction, as long as you were reading, it was fine. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like in that uh time that was allocated, it was not about the reading level, it was what you wanted to read. We were not given a task to find an extract a main idea, for instance. It was all about what we wanted to achieve in that time, even if we had to be quiet while doing so and we didn't get to discuss it. It was more like focusing that attention internally and kind of thinking for yourself. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Did you find that that choice also meant that you could direct your attention to subject areas that you were more interested in and really develop a particular, you know, passion?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I found that I really liked even now I really like fiction. But I know a lot of people in my cohort as well would pick up different different books that relate to different hobbies, different interests. It kind of also leads to developing a sense of identity. Because I picked up, I remember picking up um Percy Jackson at the time. And after that, it kind of led me down a rabbit hole of Greek mythology, and that even today I really like Greek mythology. I like a lot of plays associated with it, and I think I'm very excited for um the Odyssey that's coming out very soon. Yes, that sort of thing. It really that time, those time periods throughout grade six when it's allocated, even if we didn't appreciate the time, it for me it was really important in kind of guiding my interests as an adult, even if I didn't realise unconsciously it was just great.
SPEAKER_02That's so interesting. There's a lot that we talk about in education about student agency or student autonomy, and sometimes that's really simple choices, but what you're saying is those simple choices actually do land and do make a difference. Is there anything else about your love of learning that came out of school apart from just choice?
SPEAKER_01Love of learning. I suppose you could say a lot of motor skills. I like learning a lot of motor skills because I would partake in a lot of different sports as well. I had a lot of time at the time to choose different avenues of interest. So I would do the cross-country, I would do human-powered vehicles, I would do basketball, I do netball, give everything kind of a try because you weren't going to be criticized for giving things a go.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it was about for me being able to kind of display what I can do, not so much what I in the in those sports fields. I could kind of show what I could do rather than just kind of tell people what I could do. And that was really important for me to learn how to do things as well.
SPEAKER_02So there wasn't a sense of judgment at primary school. Did you then feel at secondary school there was more judgment? There was definitely a shift.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But for me it wasn't too bad because it, if anything, it helped me find the places or more specifically, find the places I wanted to pigeonhole myself in in high school. Like there were a couple of um sports that I would still participate in, but it wasn't as big of a deal, and I could find motor skills and other things. For example, I think once I hit 18, I could do different certifications, although they weren't necessarily related to high school. I could kind of go do different courses, like an RSA, for example, doing making drinks, those sorts of things as well. I could kind of pick and choose a little more even as I went and transitioned into high school, but primary school kind of gave you a taste of things to kind of streamline what you wanted to do once you transitioned into high school. I found anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, amazing. Thanks. Could you tell us a little bit more about your high school school experiences?
SPEAKER_01I found that my identity, I mean, it's related to education for me because I am strongly ground myself in what I learn. I know it's not exactly the same for others, but I found that I explored my identity a lot in high school compared to primary school. Although I got the choices this time in high school, I found that the ability to pick and choose quite pointedly kind of helped build on what I already had cared about and made me develop a passion for the things I do and do now as well. Um I found that the teachers supported me more in my personal endeavours and my personal interests because they understood how stressful the studying was in high school and how much pressure there was on study, that they also still prioritized us having different interests outside of our studies. Um I also found that there was a big stress on looking after our mental health. For me, anyway, the teachers I interacted with really focused on prioritizing our mental health first and foremost before we would go and study and try and do our best.
SPEAKER_02That's really interesting. Um I'm starting to notice a difference between the people that I've been interviewing who are older and closer to 30 and the people I'm interviewing who are closer to 20. The people who are closer to 30 talk more about judgment and um teachers who didn't necessarily prioritize mental health, didn't necessarily on the whole see them and their needs, with a few really important exceptions. But people in their 20s seem to be talking more about that sense of my health physically and mentally is important in this room. So can you tell us more about some of the things that were done around that that made a difference to you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I found especially in year 12, we the teachers, the first one of the first things we did in the first weeks was assign a mentor to each student. And it doesn't seem significant in its in its own thing. However, I found that having that person, having the teacher who's not just there to talk about VCE, having that person there to talk about how my day was going, having that person to ask, oh, so what are you exploring outside of your studies? What interest do you have? Just kind of reminding me that there is more to your studies than just the studies. And looking after yourself also plays a big role in how you participate in your studies. It played a big role in me succeeding in my VC studies because I could kind of prepare myself to do well because I had looked after myself in other ways. But the t the my mentor kind of looked after me. I don't want to say looked after me, but it was a reminder, acted as someone there, as a companion, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02It was really interesting. So was that mentor another year 12 student, or so who was the mentor?
SPEAKER_01The mentor was one of our select teachers, so it could be across any of the teachers throughout year seven to twelve, I believe. I had chosen my English teacher, so it happened to be year 12, but I knew a lot of other people chose some teachers they'd had in the past from year nine and ten, some of the sciences, for example, anyone you felt comfortable with. And there was you could choose up to about three on a list, and then they'd be allocating them based on preferences and who was uh quite in high demand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02So, in that sense, the school had made a very deliberate effort to make sure that your sense of connection to the teachers in the school was really well established and deliberately put in place, like scheduled meeting times and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they would mention that, hey guys, you have these mentors you can go to, you can schedule it yourself. Like it can be kind of a bit of both, like you would be able to book in times, I suppose, or but you could also go up to the teacher and talk to them personally and kind of take um ownership of your own choices by going, okay, I know when I'm I'm I'm not feeling good or or I need this assistance, let me go ask my mentor for the next step. It kind of helped in a way to kind of develop um my autonomy as well. Yeah, amazing.
SPEAKER_02That sounds so cool. I wonder, I wonder how the school came across that as a concept of how to do things. It sounds like one that other schools could learn from for sure.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even think about that actually. I just kind of went, oh, this is a good idea, and now I have someone else to chat with and about my English texts. Okay, double doubly so I was a little bit nerdy at the time. I just every time I go to my mental session, I'd always be like referencing the playwalls, studying. I mean, it then again it's my English teacher. What else was I supposed to do?
SPEAKER_02Of course, of course, of course, of course. Yeah, that makes total sense. So, what things about school do you feel like prepared you for life?
SPEAKER_01I think for me personally, it was we do have different relationships during high school. However, I found the importance of kind of keeping up with those relationships, even into adult life, was kind of something taught in my education experience, I believe. Being able to choose who you want to be friends with. I know it sounds quite basic. However, in U 12, especially, because you wanted to surround yourself with people who were going to allow you the space to succeed. For me, that is applied to my experiences in university as well. Who I surround myself with is especially important to cultivating not just my knowledge and my interest in things, but also my set of morals, so to speak, my morality and how I engage with the world and what I want to how I want to engage with the world, I suppose. Being able to choose who you surround yourself with, school really did help me with that because I was around different friend groups all the time. I would talk to different people in all walks of life. You were exposed to different people in different socioeconomic states. You had a lot of people from different diverse groups, um, even from staff to students as well. It kind of helps it helped me figure out who what type of person I want to be around and what type type of person I want to be heading into my life and into my career.
SPEAKER_02Did that happen in any formal way at school, or was it just the fact of being in a physical space with a lot of different people?
SPEAKER_01There was a bit of both because I would have friends outside of class that I would purposely want to establish those relationships and continue them outside the schoolyard, people that I've seen from primary school and wanted to maintain that friendship over high school and even now. But also there were some friendships that kind of relied on a bit more of a formal setting, like having a classroom or having a specific extracurricular activity to do together, those kind of helped forward those relationships as well. So it's a bit of both. A bit of both.
SPEAKER_02And when it was in the classroom, the relationships were built in what sort of way? Was it because you happened to do group work, you happened to sit at the same table, or was there anything deliberate that was done by the teachers that promoted that?
SPEAKER_01There was a lot of group work, but not anything that was there was nothing that was graded. You would do group work in the the goal of kind of coming up with something together that makes sense for all of us, some way that we can all kind of meet each other on the same level in our learning. Even if we don't understand something on the same level, we would try and work together to kind of reach an outcome where we all understand in some way. But I also found that we would have a lot of inside jokes during philosophy class, for example. Yeah, cute. Yeah, it's very pretty cute actually. Do you remember any? Yes, we used to do study sessions during the breaks. And it was we do them very early in the morning, this is during winter, uh, and we'd bring all our blankets, we'd bring hot chocolate to the classes. Um my philosophy teacher had a kettle, for example, and we make hot chocolates, we make teas, and we'd always associate those sort of activities with different philosophers. Yeah. And then, but then that became a sort of inside joke for the rest of us because we could talk to each other in the yard and be like, oh, do you remember this hot chocolate? Or do you remember this scent? Because we bring in um our philosophy teacher would bring in candles as well to associate philosophers with scents, and we found that a little bit funny because it's not really heard of other teachers doing this. So we kind of found it a bit funny, but also we we thought it was very sweet. So it was kind of like Descartes Cocoa and Precisely, yes. Yeah. We had um, oh my goodness, there was a very strong scent for Nietzsche, is all I'm gonna say. I remember it being very, very powerful, intense scent.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'll leave it there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so what sorts of skills did you learn in secondary school that you find that you use in life now? So what I'm talking about is more the content of secondary school. So what yeah, what do you use that was content-wise?
SPEAKER_01Content-wise, for me, it would be most of English class. Right. Looking back on it in secondary school, I would say. Being able to extract from a text or extract from any form of media and see the truth in it, and also be able to elaborate on what you believe this means or any authorial intent, that is what I've probably taken away the most. Being able to kind of critically think, very important to me, and I value that very much heading into my university studies because that's all our professors talk about. Being able to form your own educated opinion on things based on what you have read. So English was a way to engage with a bunch of texts, read them from different lens and perspectives, and from what you've taken from that, go, okay, this is what I believe, and this is what actually is truth, and kind of bring those together so you are informed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've started to think of any sort of text, whether it's a podcast text or a visual one or a a book or something, as my speaking partner, as my conversation buddy. And that's a really different way of reading something than to just say, oh yeah, that's true, that's true, that's true, and just take it all on board. And then you read something else and all of that's true as well. And you think, hmm, how do those two things actually both be true at the same time? And there's lots, that's where I find my really interesting thinking starts to come to the fore, because often when something's written down, particularly in any sort of research debate situation, each person presents their point of view with a particular angle that might only be a nuance away from the medium. And then the other person is the nuance on the other side, but they're actually not that far away from each other. And and that combining of two what appear to be diametrically opposed truths into an as a middle ground, a fertile middle ground, I think is fascinating. So yeah, I remember getting a lot of that critical thinking skills and interacting with texts from my English as well.
SPEAKER_01And that was a few years ago, I must say. Yes, um, if I may add on to that as well, it's so important to also develop your own active voice to be able to go into society and engage in a functional way and contribute in a positive way as well. It is so important to see the nuance and things and not see text, for example, not just seeing them in black and white white, even though there are truths in books and there are, for example, memoirs, there's going to be lots of truth there and lots of lived experience, being able to take those and recognize that different lives are full of different complexities. And even when we engage in a lot of media at the moment, looking at this and going, okay, why has this opinion piece been formed? Why is this something that we the media collectively is taking away from this? What other inf what other factors are influencing this type of opinion? That's something that English does really help with because we form, we look at themes, we look at different types of messages, but also the context of why this has been written in the first place. That is something that is really important, just taking the time to consider different types of context. I'd say mostly socio-political context, but that is something that even unconsciously we are exploring and extracting during English classes.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. You said active voice just then, and then you went back into critical thinking sorts of skills. What how would you describe Ella now and her active voice in the world today?
SPEAKER_01My active voice, it's for to be honest, I try to use it as much as I can. It's more like a powerful voice, not being afraid. Afraid to engage with things, even if I know that oh, it might compromise not my safety, but for example, different forms of protest. For example, knowing that I might potentially have the privilege of going to a protest and not being harmed, for example. Kind of being my own pioneer. Kind of going around and being undoubtedly myself and picking things. If I if I go around taking what I can, forming nuance, trying to form as much nuance as possible and recognizing this in every single experience that I have, and kind of taking that when I speak and speaking with that confidence and recognising that that confidence can be difficult and still put persevering anyway.
SPEAKER_02It does make sense. I'm going to try and summarise for you. Um that within the complexity of what you see in the world, you're able to find the nuance and find the story in that, and then have the confidence to speak what makes sense to you now, and to have that voice going out into the world, whether it's just in a conversation with a person in a room in a library, or which is where we are now, just in case that was not obvious, um, or being able to go to a protest and put your physical self as part of that voice to a particular message that you feel is important. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I've been wanting to go to a few for a while, but and and still I am still in that way, like I would in my active voice, it's kind of like taking a step forward. It's not uh literally an active voice, but in the things that I do, taking that step forward and I recognize that oh, like protesting can be scary, for example, not to get too political, it can be quite scary. You are putting yourself in a situation where you could consider dangerous, yeah, but recognizing that I can go through these things and I can do this is really important as well, just in as you were saying, in a lot of different walks of life, in in different things I am engaging in, taking that step forward and remaining educated while doing so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to do that with this podcast to some degree. Um, and that has also been a really brave step for me, even at this age. So I continue to evolve myself throughout my life, and it's been a really interesting journey doing that. So I'm excited for you that you feel like you've got that sense of an active voice at such a young age. I think that's a really powerful place to be because you've got a lot of years to develop that further and take it into other spaces and evolve it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there is a lot to be said for it though at the moment. Like I'm cultivating it. There are different forms of protest and different things I can do, not just physically, and that I can also focus on that as well, because in this day and age for women especially, it can be quite scary to engage in those physical forms of protest. So when I say protest, I mean more the broader sense of protest, yes.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, any form. Yes, it's your story too. Is there anything that you think could schools could be teaching, but they aren't at the moment? Content-wise first, content-wise.
SPEAKER_01Well, in my primary school years, I found that maybe the because I can't remember as much, but I found that anything to do with First Nations communities was not well integrated into curriculum curriculum. Even in secondary school, to some extent, while I did learn about First Nations communities and they were um in the structure of some curriculum points, I found that it was not well integrated or considered when talking about those communities and how important it is to really acknowledge what suffering they have experienced and the respect that they absolutely deserve is not as well cultivated as it could be, as I believe that the respect starts from primary school years and making sure that these issues are known even if you are quite young.
SPEAKER_02That makes a lot of sense, and uh knowing the history of when the ATSL standards, which is the um the standards for teachers, came in 15 years-ish ago, and part of that was where the First Nations curriculum became part of the integration. So your primary school years were the early years of that coming in, and of course it was a new thing that teachers really didn't know very much what to do with, and then it's only really now from what I'm seeing and feeling around my space beginning to get some real traction. So this last um not NADOC week, what was it? I'll have to add this in later. It was one of the First Nations things, sorry, day, I think it was. Um, and liturgies and things like that. There was an energy in that this year that I haven't noticed up until this year. So it might be a space which is already changing, and it's just that you went through school a slightly earlier than that. So who knows?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I would believe so. I remember though that it was quite controversial, so to speak. I when I did my psychology for VCE, and they had just recently introduced um Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People's content into that curriculum and quite uh they tried to embed it. It was very new, and I believe either the my year or the year prior, they had tried to do exam content and make exam questions or integrate it in some way to reflect that change, and it was not very well received by my cohort because they they perceived it as oh, this is not well attached to this curriculum that has already existed. But say for I believe 2022, then they may have brought something in 2023. Forgive me if I'm a bit off there, but I remember everyone essentially complaining, going, oh, this is not how like they have taught the rest of the curriculum, they have not integrated in a way that makes sense. But then I I personally was like, this is just not this is also not portraying our First Nations people in a way that is positive nor engaging because now there is this negativity held toward this community, and it's not particularly their fault at all. Um I just believe that that entire curriculum could have just been reframed instead of trying to attach something and try and integrate it in a way that's to a pre-existing standard. I think that there could be a revamp of that in VCA, particularly. I'm not quite well educated in other parts of the curriculum and other parts of secondary education, but for that I remember that being quite a big deal and that standing out to me from my cohort and me going, oh, this is going to reflect poorly on poorly on our attitudes towards First Nations people.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Well, hopefully slowly that will change and it will be a lot more clearly integrated.
SPEAKER_01I hope so. I maybe there have been changes because it has been quite a while now, and I hope they are teaching it in a really culturally safe way as well. I know that they did preface this. We did get to engage in a lot of videos, and there's a lot of context we were provided beforehand, but it was just when you put that in a con exam context, it just gets sometimes that can be lost. For a lot of students, that interest and just that knowledge of indigenous communities can be really easily lost because they're focused on a number instead.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's a constant catch-22 in education, because if you haven't got an assessment component, then people just ignore it. Exactly. Students and teachers. Um understandably, because ultimately, particularly in those later years of secondary, you're looking at a number for as your main goal. Um but then by putting it as an assessment component, you're shaping it in a way which is not necessarily authentic to the meaning and the intent. Yeah. So it's it's a really interesting space and and one that educators are constantly grappling with.
SPEAKER_01I can recognise that it is very, I'm sure there's a lot of thought going into this, and I, for one, can see the positive consequences of adding this to the curriculum because it does draw light to these the issues that we discuss in English as well. And to some, I would say, even philosophy, all those humanities classes, they are all these different forms of Eurocentrism that is always talked about in the humanities. I just think that they could have incorporated a bit better for psychology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's the Asian component as well, which is also not as well represented as the Eurocentric concepts. Yeah, absolutely. I get it, I get it. Um I still want to know is there anything that you've had to learn in life since school that school really could have taught you? So, what things have you had to learn post-school to function as a normal young adult?
SPEAKER_01I think schooling tried to teach a certain level of passing judgment or passing non-judgment, I've mean. And from that kind of teaching empathy. However, when you go into the real word, word, um, quote unquote, post-school life, yeah, um to be able to actually practice empathy and to kind of have your own space and not be comfortable in your own space enough that you are not infiltrating other people's spaces without um and kind of without their consent and not passing judgment, it is something that school does not prepare you for. Because there are times that you really, you really just have to reflect on why people's behaviour is the way it is. And in school, you're kind of you've got that boundary of, oh, these are the groups I am talking with, I'm not engaging with all the walks of life. While there are quite um diverse groups at school, as I mentioned previously, there are some groups around that you just have to really, you just have to think for them. Like you have to think kindly of them, you have to lead with that kindness because or else it's going to for me, it would just eat me up if I was too worried about and being too judgmental, it would just hurt. So I think that level of empathy and to lead with care is not something that school necessarily teaches, and it's something that I've had to practice a bit more outside of school. So, how have you learnt how to do that? Is that I think my learning at university has helped a bit, especially when you're studying human behaviour, you have to kind of take a step back and go, okay, there is so much more to someone than meets the eye. Yes, yeah, there's so much more to that. And but also just there's a I have to have a level of comfort in myself first because if people can see I'm comfortable, then they are more likely to be comfortable. And for me, it that also includes for me to be comfortable, I have to talk to people without passing judgment. I have to be willing enough to talk to people when they might not be. I have to be someone who engages, I have to be someone who is willing to be part of a community. With so that for me, being a part of the community is someone who does not judge those who try to become part of the community. If that makes sense. I think so. Thank you. Okay, let me know if you'd like me to clarify. Um I've got to think about that a little more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna explore this one a little bit further because I'm curious. Um, I'm gonna talk a little bit more about some of the challenges that I have as a teacher because it feels to me that over the last five to ten years there's been a different lens being asked of teachers towards um the young people in the room who are displaying from a teacher's point of view annoying behavior. But often from that individual's point of view, it is their expression of something that's not working for them. And instead of meeting that display of some sort of behaviour in an in an authoritarian way or in a conflict way, to meet that with curiosity and understanding and explore the situation and try and find alternative ways of de-escalating the sorts of emotions that might be coming up for that person or um reorganizing how the actual lesson content is or the way that the lesson content is being delivered and not so much delivered as being received and ways that they can receive it better. It's a big, big challenge because it feels to me as a teacher not having become a psychology student and studied all of that side of things that suddenly I'm expected to know a lot. But even not knowing to be able to come to a person with a sense of I know that you're here doing your best and your best at the moment is irritating me, I have to admit. But that's not what I'm needing to share with you. I need to share with you the curiosity and the inquiry of where can we go to next that will work better.
SPEAKER_01Is that the sort of thing that you're talking about? Yeah, to be able to meet different people with curiosity rather than prejudice is really important. And for me, I find that outside of school, kind of putting aside any, yeah, like it's not exactly non-judgment because we all have our unconscious judgments. We are always holding some form of bias towards things, whether or not we know.
SPEAKER_02And we need them because they're the first things that give us a little bit of a framework to begin our interaction with.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, there are a lot of positives to those biases, but at the same time, to be able to figure out what is needed right now and putting aside those judgments is something I have had to work on uh separate from school. Yep. And I know there are a bunch of influences on how, like my ease of doing that. For example, I know that it's I am in a privileged position where I can study at the moment, and that is helping to cultivate that. Yep, even if I'm not exactly practicing it day by day, it is something that does contribute towards that because I'm in a safe environment. Um, but yeah, to be able to come to someone in s with that curiosity instead of holding some preconceived judgment about them is something that I've had to look and take away without school.
SPEAKER_02I reckon that would be hard to actually teach at school, though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't because yeah, again, there's a lot from school that I would say that it teaches you, but it also more facilitates things that are already there. There are things from other parts of life, like family situations, for example, things you learn in a household when you come to the school environment, different parts of you are coming out in this schoolyard, for example. Yeah, no, it it is those things that can either be facilitated or downplayed for lack of a better word there, but there are different things that people bring to school that will be facilitated because of that. Different, different things all connecting, all around.
SPEAKER_02What would you like to say to teachers, leaders, curriculum designers, and school policymakers?
SPEAKER_01I'm kind of leading on to what you were saying about how teachers there are a lot of expectations on teachers, which is must just be incredibly confronting. Um I wanted to say to teachers that I think that they are doing an excellent job. They are doing absolutely wonderful. All the teachers that I have I have no bad memories of a teacher. Wow. That's great. Again, I'm very lucky to be able to say that. I know for a lot of people it's not the same, but anyone I have a good memory of at school, they did a fantastic job. They were someone I could rely on as a safe adult as well. That's very important to kind of cultivate an environment where I am happy and comfortable to learn. Um but they also I know that they um had my back, and that was really important as well. Um I believe that teachers definitely deserve a bit more recognition for what they are doing because they have to deal with these biases. I don't do do the teachers have um access to different forms of therapy, part of their job? Yeah, that'd be a nice idea. Yeah, that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_02Like all different things. Um I know there are different conferences. I'm I'm making it sound like there's nothing available.
SPEAKER_01I didn't mean that I'm unkindly, no.
SPEAKER_02All schools have access to therapy, which is free for about five sessions. And that is something that is advertised and it's completely private, and you just call a number, it's always on a board somewhere in the school, it's mentioned in newsletters and things like that. So there is that available in in all education systems, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. I must that's that's really good. I'm I must look into that. And I know we have that even at university as well for students, which is wonderful. But um, I hope that teachers also get the support they deserve just in different domains, because I know how emotionally taxing it can be. From what I have just briefly heard from my teachers as well, and that being in different kinds of classroom environments, mine was a little bit different because between years seven to ten, I was a part of a high achievers program. So again, it's a bit different there. But in year 11 and 12, I really got a taste of what different classroom environments and how that can kind of make or break how well a teacher can perform in that environment as well, and how well they can engage a class can really depend on even one or two students can really change shift the mood as well. So I hope that teachers really get the recognition they deserve, and I also hope that they are well supported, even more so in the future, be it financially, emotionally, but also just in a level of respect. But I know that is again hard to kind of focus on in students in high school, because that respect starts early, I would say. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interesting. It would be interesting for teachers instead of using those um the access to psychology sessions that we do have access to, instead of seeing that as well, when I really, really need it, I'll go and access it to perhaps be a little bit more encouraged to use it as um as a check-in and uh what's the word? I can I can visualize, I know. Like a maintenance check rather than a breakdown check.
SPEAKER_01Little bumps in the road rather than a big hill.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. A check-in rather than I'm desperate, I need somebody to save me, sort of situation. So that could be an interesting way of just encouraging teachers to access those services because they're there, they're available. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um curriculum designers, school policymakers, leaders. I don't know if I have anything specifically to say because I understand that it is very difficult to make a curriculum that is um generalizable to Victoria. I understand that not everybody is going to benefit from this, but they you have to take the approach where the majority will be able to succeed with this. And I know there are again, there are ways of um different access plans I know in place to help people who might struggle with curriculum. For example, I know like during exam sessions or um SACs and different um formative assessments, they can access different support, but I also know that it might not be enough for a lot of people. Um but if I had to Say something, I would say that it is always worth because I know they are always revising these things, but please keep revising it is really helping. Like I I anytime I hear people in high school, it seems like when I get older and I look back on different high school students I see around me, they all seem a lot less stressed than I was at that time. And that might mean that maybe that is because the school curriculum is being changed in a way that is prioritizing, again, that mental health and also kind of recognizing that this is something we need to protect and sustain throughout our lives rather than something that's momentary. Like studying is not a momentary thing, it is going to be something that a lot of people take throughout their lives, so we might as well protect ourselves and look after ourselves while we do this journey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And formal education is only one way of doing it. Because as I as we were chatting before we started the podcast, for me, being able to do this podcast is a whole new sandpit of learning. And it's to do with sound engineering and programs and also getting the word out and finding people and um design work to put together the little postcard, little business cards that I've done. So I'm really, really I've enjoyed learning throughout my life, and I hope people continue to get that sense of I've got something more to learn, even if it's just scouring YouTube and and finding out about um space travel or something. Yes, yes, it is that it is that makes you interested.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that um exploration as well. I think that the curriculum or for what they have done with the curriculum, as much as there is always things to improve, there's always things to discuss about it that you could add or take away, for the most part, there are dot points in the VC curriculum uh that you can discuss and it does allow for students to be creative in the way that they talk about concepts because there will be a general statement, but then in a class you can break those down. There are ways to be innovative and take control of that learning in a way that makes sense for you. There are avenues, it does allow you to get creative, it is not too prescriptive. Like you you do have to know certain facts and you're expected to, but it is not too strict in the sense that it is like in the classroom, you are not going to have to stick to the curriculum the entire time. You are you especially I'd say in Victoria, you are allowed to go off track. Like there is you're allowed to have a bit of time to think about what you are learning, and that does really help explore because that is leads to that curiosity which leads to overall different forms of empathy. Curiosity and different forms of empathy. I love it. Yeah, they all they all connect, and building curiosity about different concepts really does help us stay curious about different people and communities and just the way we live in general. I believe that it all kind of intersects. That is such a beautiful ending. What's next for Ella? The literal way I might be doing an honest year next year because I want to hopefully pursue something related to neuroscience. Yep. Um, however, in terms of general things, I am hoping that I get a bit more involved in something to do with research or just something that's a bit more involved in the Allied Health or Health field, just so I do have a better understanding of people's lives and just kind of just learning about different people because then I am more knowledgeable and I am better to act on things in the future.
SPEAKER_02Hoping so. Yay! Again, so interesting. Ella has challenged me in a different way again. I noticed that there's been a bit of an expectation that school-based education is not necessarily serving our young adults as well as we like to think. And some guests have definitely confirmed with some very thoughtful reflections and suggestions towards improvements. Ella's story, however, reveals and flips this hidden assumption. She talks about how well school has set her up for life, not just the content of her school-based education, but also the relationships, the connections, the empathy, the awareness of the world and her place and identity within it. In many ways, Ella is the exact candidate school is set up for. When given free reading at 12, she finds the space to pursue her interests and passions, letting the text be her conversation buddy. And she was, not surprisingly, given how articulate and nuanced her ideas were, in the accelerated program in secondary school. And she went to university, where she's nearing her undergraduate studies and is considering some postgraduate options. If secondary schools are, to some extent, setting young people up for life at university, yes, many caveats here, but many guests have mentioned that they felt this push. Then Ella was right in the middle of that stream, sailing gladly. Perhaps then it's not surprising that Ella has an overwhelmingly positive take on school-based education. Another area where Ella's story reveals a different part of the picture is her response to what she has had to learn since school. She did not mention tax, financial literacy, and other life skills as many other guests have. She mentioned judgment. The sort of space to be so confident in your emotional self and identity that you are able to genuinely hear others' experiences, especially from people who might not be your chosen friends. Also, Ella wasn't asking school-based education to have taught her this. She actually thought that the preparation through English in particular, the critical thinking skills and the understanding of human experience did, in fact, lay the groundwork for this ongoing personal learning toward deep open empathy. Following our reflection last week with Matt Pittman around connection in schools, Ella's story is a brilliant shout out to a secondary school that prioritized and deliberately set up structures for building authentic student-teacher connection. The mentor program for Ella's Year 12, where students each had a teacher they felt comfortable with to check in with, not just about school, but about life beyond school too. I feel like I can hear Matt cheering as he listens to this episode. And yes, Ella speaks of this component as key to her success. For a young person who is not in the education field, Ella seems to have a very good sense of what the Victorian curriculum is and the space that is enabled toward creativity, curiosity, and passion. I loved how she rounded our discussion by connecting these dispositions to empathy. The next few stories are quite different again. They are more about the dream of being drafted into the AFL, the Australian Football League, and where school sits as a result. Click follow on your podcast platform to ensure that you receive the episodes as they drop. Like, review, and share to help others find this. Bye for now.