Thirteen Years Well Spent
What was school like for you? This podcast chats to young adults about what, from school they use in life and what they have learnt since. In the cumulative stories of real people, lets find out if school is doing as it claims - prepare young people for life.
Thirteen Years Well Spent
17 Brad
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Brad cried when he read a book that pivoted his life. It found out what he didn't know he didn't know because school didn't teach it. While Brad, as many guests, are grateful for the basic literacy and numeracy that school established for them, there is much that he feels could have been included in both the content and the pedagogy of school based education.
In many ways this felt like an educator reflection as Brad's background in organisational psychology frames the specific and detailed suggestions for schools to consider as they help our next generation learn.
Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And within the first five minutes of listening to that book, I began crying because I realized that I had stumbled across such profound information and knowledge that no school teacher, no peer, no parent, not even my own, no aunties, uncles, no one had ever shared anything close to these such valuable and fundamental concepts that can really give you a leg up in life and was the 13 years or so that you spent in school-based education well spent?
SPEAKER_01The idea comes from Guy Claxton, who wondered on the ERR, which is the Education Research Reading Room podcast hosted by Ollie Lovell, if young adults would say that it is 13 years well spent. I think schools get lots of information from the people who come to the schools while they're in school. But as soon as they leave the gate, we seem to not follow up with actual data that finds out was their school-based education useful? If it was, in what ways? How can we maximize that? And if it wasn't, in what ways might we uh consider adapting so that it is more useful for our young people? I'm Susa Taylor, a teacher of Japanese and leader of languages. But this is not about me. Well, actually, there is a piece about me in this one. It's also not about any of the organizations I am, have been, or might in the future be associated with. If you would like to share your story under 18 to 30 years, please email me. 13 years well spent as one word, with 13 as a word, not a number, at gmail.com. Before we get into this episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Gunai, Kernai, and Bannerong people as the traditional owners of the unceded land where I live. And I appreciate the knowledge and stories of all First Nations people. And thank them. I would like to thank my partner, Gary, for much joy in our life and for the beautiful intro and outro music. And I am most grateful to the stars of this podcast, the fabulous school leaders, who have been willing to share their experiences and thoughts with such depth and vulnerability. And not least to you, the listener, who's chosen to spend this time with us. And please do share it so that others might hear these stories. And the stories then might mediate our thinking about how best to do school-based education. Now let's listen to Brad. Hello, how are you?
SPEAKER_04Good. Yourself.
SPEAKER_01Really good. Did you have that horrible American voice saying, recording in progress as you came on?
SPEAKER_04Yes. We're in action. Bring it on.
SPEAKER_01We are definitely in action, and I've decided that we absolutely have to check in with each other before I do any recording. I've got a really big one coming up. I'm going to be recording with Guy Claxton, who is a major educational researcher. He's worked in the field for ages, probably got more than 20 books written and just super, super famous. And he's going to record with me on Friday.
SPEAKER_04So awesome. Congrats.
SPEAKER_01I am so grateful that the problem happened with you and not with him, although I don't mean to. Oh you know.
SPEAKER_04Hey, no, that's that's that's good. It's you need to iron the the creases out, don't you?
SPEAKER_01You do. And I hadn't had that crease until it was with your session last time. So I'm just so grateful that you're willing to come back on and put down all of that stuff again.
SPEAKER_04And uh I think it's important to share your, you know, it's it's a really cool experience to have a conversation where, you know, because no one's ever asked me these questions about thinking, you know, to to really reflect on such an important time in your life.
SPEAKER_01So it's such a big amount of your life. 13 years of your life is a good at least 10% of it, possibly more, depending on how long you end up living for, but it is a good chunk of your life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, and it's funny because it's like the older you get, a 13-year time frame might become less significant. But when you're, you know, this early on, or you know, for me being 33, that was almost half of my life. So, you know, it's even more significant now. And it will still be significant later, but it's just, yeah, it's it's super important.
SPEAKER_01It is so very, very much appreciated. All right, let's start with the stuff that we usually start with. Actually, before we do, would you mind asking me? Because I you asked me in the first take of this that where I came from and what who am I? Because you and I haven't met before. We've been connected up through other people that we know of, but you then you asked me.
SPEAKER_03I think that would be good.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's I think it's good that your listeners continue to get snippets of who you are as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah. So I'll with that said, you know, the the fact that you've decided to create this great initiative, this great podcast, 13 Years Well Spent. Can you share a little bit about your background? And because I'm curious, I've never come across a podcast like this before. I'd like to know what triggered it for you and a little bit about your background and maybe how that led you to this point where you're now doing this great podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for asking because I do forget to talk about myself and I am part of this experience, I suppose, even though I want to bring out the stories of other people, I am part of this experience. So I often say that the trigger was Guy Claxton's comment on the ERR, which is the education research reading room. That's another podcast. Please listen to it. It's amazing. It's um hosted by Ollie Lovell. And Guy Claxton said, would young people say it's 13 years well spent or 12 years well spent or however many years that they were in education for? He also said that there's very little research that's been done on what adults would say post-school. Most of the data that we collect in school tends to finish when children leave the gate, if you call them children when they're in year 12. And we have a lot of data from the people in our care while they're in the school grounds, but not once they leave the school grounds. And it's I'm finding it remarkably hard to get people to come and talk. So every time somebody like yourself says yes to this, I am just so overwhelmingly grateful for it. But a comment like that is not going to trigger this sort of action unless there's a little bit more behind it from my point of view. And there definitely is a lot more behind it. So my personal experience of schooling was really, really diverse. I went to a government school for primary school, very run-of-the-mill sort of primary school, um, obviously quite some time ago now, because I am now 60. So you do the calculations. Um but it was basically what everyone was doing at that time. There was nothing remarkable about it. After primary school, I went to a very alternative secondary school four year seven, eight, nine. You would probably call it year 10. I actually did the four years and three years. So I was three years at that school. And we got to make up our own schedule every six weeks. We had to make contracts with the teachers. So each unit you would actually sign up for. There were lots of opportunities to do things that weren't what you would call academic subjects. So I did pottery and ice skating and um woodwork and sheet metal. And I really got into different things that I can do with my hands, which I'm still super passionate about, even though my skills are not that great in some of them, and actually just for the laughs. Um just a question on that.
SPEAKER_04Sorry. Um, the fact that you were able to curate your own curriculum and explore all these different ideas. Do you feel that that was incredibly valuable in, you know, so that school was obviously very much accommodating and curious to know what you wanted to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Do you feel like that enabled you to find and discover a lot of yourself through that very keyword alternative approach?
SPEAKER_01So much of my sense of agency in my life, but also my sense that I want to give agency to others when I'm in a school environment but everywhere is very much part of that experience. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. And it really feels the natural thing because I've experienced it myself, to have that sort of agency over both content and process in learning situations. And I know because this is our second take, that you've got a lot to say in terms of how to think and the sorts of things that you've come to it for. So I went from that situation into entirely the opposite extreme. And I went to a select entry government school where it was extremely academic. And I did the last three years of my secondary schooling in that situation. So I really got a sense of both ends of the educational spectrum, and that's part of why I feel like I've got a lot to say and a lot to give in terms of understanding various ways of approaching education generally.
SPEAKER_04That's fantastic. Yeah, you're you're definitely not the uh, I guess, the one-dimensional person that just had one flavor of education. You've really, as you said, got to experience the all the colours of the rainbow, which is great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, Brad, I know that you went to a government school in rural Victoria for your primary, and you went to a government secondary school in the same area for your secondary. And I also know that you're 33 because you kindly let me know that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, given all of that, what was it like for you? Were your 13 years well spent?
SPEAKER_04It's a really good question. I think for me to get a little bit technical and in the nitty-gritty of it, 13 years well spent relative to the conditions and only having known what I knew, and everyone else only knowing what they know. Uh, so I share this with you because there's an interesting saying that has just always stuck with me, and it was it is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. Now, before I well, just to provide a little bit of context there, yeah. Well, I I share that because school to me had some positives and it had some negatives, and I think the gaps upon deeper reflection, the gaps outweighed the things that were in place. Um, and now I'm not saying society is sick by any means, but uh in terms of coming back to your question, 13 years well spent, I would say, yeah, relative to what I had to work with and the system that I operated within, I think I did the best I could with what I had. And I think the teachers and everyone else were doing the best they could with what they had, but that is not to say that there were quite a few limitations and gaps throughout that entire process for me. And this is all in hindsight now. I wasn't in, you know, grade prep or grade one and saying, why is this not in the curriculum and why is this not happening? This is all, you know, in hindsight.
SPEAKER_01So which is exactly why we need to have these conversations at this stage of life. We can't get that information while you're in it. The you know, the fish in water doesn't understand what water is.
SPEAKER_04Yes, so well said. So look, I I think for the most part, it was well spent because I didn't know any better, and I don't think any of the the key stakeholders in that whole experience knew any better. But I think it could be a lot better moving forward.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So what were the things that were worthwhile for you in your education, school-based education?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, look, I I think being a part of a system, being a part of a team, you had to respect one another, you had to be disciplined, you know, you were given tasks and assignments, and even if you didn't like them, you know, because in life there's lots of things that you don't like, and there's lots of things that are hard and dry and boring, but you have to do them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So you learn a lot of essential basic skills, you know, reading, writing, uh being a team player, doing what you're told, hard work, all of those key essential things. Uh but once again, I think there were quite a lot of other fundamental things that could have been thrown in the mix that unfortunately weren't, and I still to this day don't think many of them are being considered. All all the very the the bare basics, right? The bare basics, the things that were missing, and a huge part of my learning journey. I I feel like I had a very, very steep learning curve when I was 19 years old. Yeah. Um, and that's when everything started to hit me and and click for me in a good way. I I feel like at 19 years old I had more light bulbs go off than I had in most of my 13 years in school. And so to come back to your question, some of the things that were missing were things like self-knowledge. Now that's a very vague and broad topic, self-knowledge. Well, what do you mean by that? So emotional intelligence, uh, how to regulate yourself, uh, how to interact with other people, so self, so how to relate to others, think about others, uh, conflict resolution, negotiating, dealing with emotions, understanding the family system that you're a part of as well. Uh you know, so and and the society that you're part of at large, and I know that's more others focused as opposed to self-focused, but yeah, coming back to I I think self-knowledge, understanding that you know what you focus on you tend to experience more of. Uh the nature of neurology and how that interacts with our biology. You know, thoughts become things. So those kinds of those kinds of things to do with me at an inherent level as a human being. Am I just this moving body in a flesh suit, or is there more than meets the eye? Do I have a soul? Um what is what is energy? What is consciousness? You know? Were we taught to to feel in school? Or were we taught to think and memorize and repeat and regurgitate? So there's so many things to do with self-knowledge, and then beyond that, I think the next key thing is worldly knowledge. So it's not just about asking, well, who and what am I, but asking, well, what am I a part of? So one thing that I think was missing is that school didn't really prep prep us for the big wide world and the realities of it. Not only the the bad, you know, the harsh, you know, facts that that come with reality, but also the good. And realizing, you know, that we have so much opportunity. And you know, we don't just have to go to university or we don't just and if you don't go to university, you're made to feel like a failure or a dropkick or you know, whatever else.
SPEAKER_02Do you feel like that?
SPEAKER_04No, thankfully. But I know a lot of people, yeah. See, for me, I didn't go to uni straight away. Um, I was very much someone that I didn't really want to follow the trend just because people wanted to go to uni. I should just pick some subject and go to uni. Thankfully, for me, where everything changed for me is I got a um good, well-paying job straight out of high school at the desalination plant. And when I mentioned to you earlier, this was a Victorian desalination plant. Uh, and when I mentioned to you earlier, when I was 19, the the massive steep learning curve began, it's because the first book that I read that really hit me. Uh, sorry, it was an audio book uh outside of high school. When I was 19, I got recommended to read a book called Um Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And within the first five minutes of listening to that book, I began crying because I realized that I had stumbled across such profound information and knowledge that no school teacher, no peer, no parent, not even my own, no aunties, uncles, no one had ever shared anything close to these such valuable and fundamental concepts that can really give you a leg up in life and give you some sense of agency, like you know, what what you mentioned before. So but that's when the light that's when the real big light bulbs just started going off. And I just went down this self-education path. And I'm like, geez, imagine if I was taught or or if all of these books and audio tapes were put in front of me, in secondary school at least. Uh, I think primary school would have been a bit too early, but at least secondary school, these concepts and these ideas about life that you reap what you sow, that as within, sow without, that as I said before, thoughts become things uh where focus goes, energy flows, all these fundamental ideas, and they might sound a bit woo-woo and crackpot on the surface, but they're actually there's these fundamental, what I call universal laws that just stand true across all situations. Well, most situations, I'm sure there might be some exceptions to the rule, but I'm just thinking, why weren't we taught these key things in school? How the universe works? I mean, we're taught these traditional ideas based on physics, but even that can be challenged. The idea of gravity versus the law of density. You know? The law of density to me makes so much more sense than this idea of gravity, but no one wants to talk about that. Let's just push that off to the side. So there's just a whole bunch of things that I just see, I didn't know until I knew. But when I started reading these books and listening to these audiobooks, you that's when I realized, oh wow, I was missing out on so much in those last 13.
SPEAKER_01Do you think school could be maybe not gathering all of what Brad has learnt since school and putting it into a curriculum that feeds into a 16-year-old brain? But which of those sorts of things would you see as most useful that schools could actually add into what they're already doing or provide in some sort of way?
SPEAKER_04I think probably the key one would be emotional intelligence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's go down that one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so so how to identify what's going on inside you? Children now more than ever experience identity issues, mental health issues, you know, social anxiety, depression, all sorts of things. And now my background's in organizational psychology. So not just working at the individual level, but working at the level within systems, whether that's a family system, a workplace, a school, it doesn't matter, government. Sure. It's it all it all applies. And I think understanding our emotions, how to regulate ourselves, understanding that I'm if I say I'm angry or I'm upset, the deeper question, and this has been profound for me later on in my life as an adult, is well, what if it was just a part of me that was angry or a part of me that was upset? Because we're taught to think that we are single-minded as opposed to multi-minded and multifaceted. So we're given this very simplistic, outdated template to try and understand and navigate ourselves. You know, why am why do my palms get sweaty or my heart races? Or when I'm asked to stand at the front of the classroom and give a speech in English, I start feeling really nervous and question myself and become really insecure. I'm this wasn't me, but you know, every now and then the thoughts would come up, and I'm sure this happens, you know, that even as an adult, the number one fear I think is still public speaking, right? So I do not remember in school ever an English teacher or anyone saying, All right, everyone, we're gonna talk about, you know, your emotions and that you might feel some sensations arise in your body. And, you know, these are nerves and everyone has them. It's you you're only human, you're not broken, you're not flawed, you're not that is so key.
SPEAKER_01Sorry to jump in, but that feeling of being broken when you're feeling something inside you. So we've already shared that this is the second take of this episode, and I am hugely, hugely grateful every time somebody comes on it. So for me, it was a disaster that I didn't record our first take. And I'm I'm I can feel in my in the top of my heart a constriction in my throat because I'm worried that this is not going to record again because that was our experience last time. So I'm actually quite good at identifying those places in my body. And Guy Claxton's latest book is Bodies of Learning, which talks specifically about the physicality of learning and the physicality of our experiences as humans and how we can become more aware of that. But the key that I just jumped into of what you said, which is beautiful, is that we're not broken. Feeling that constriction doesn't mean that I'm wrong in some way. It doesn't mean that I've failed in some way. It's just a recognition that this is uh a physical anxiety due to things that I can explain fully. And I just need to allow that to be with me while I continue to do what I've decided is a really important and useful thing to do. So thank you for saying you're not broken.
SPEAKER_04Yes, uh 100%. And so if we realize that we are not single-minded, that we are multi-minded, multifaceted, that we can have multiple emotions arising within the body, whether they manifest as, you know, you know, their uh dominant thoughts, um, we feel certain things in our body, we feel certain emotions, we feel energy, we might feel hot pulsations, coldness, numbness, disassociation, whatever those are. And this coming back to self-knowledge, another key thing as part of this is understanding trauma and how the body holds on to trauma and learning about the nervous system and regulation. So imagine, imagine in your English class, even though it's not related to learning about language, the teacher would share with you, hey guys, we're gonna talk about your nervous systems and how everyone's wired differently based on nature and nurture, and you know, maybe some traumatic experiences that have occurred, maybe we'll talk about shame and self-identity and how we perceive ourselves. Maybe we'll also talk about self-esteem. All right, everyone, I want you to just know that if you feel sensations arise or you stutter or you get nervous or you disassociate and feel numb, just know that you're not alone and it's a shared human experience, and you are totally safe and okay. And we can name, we can observe them, know that they're there. We can then name them, we can feel them, we can welcome them fully. So not being taught to shut them down or gloss over them, but let's feel them and embrace whatever those weakly bits, those squirmy bits inside us, or that we might think that they're ugly and we want to push them away. Let's just let them sit beside us. Let's let them come along for the ride while I stand at the front of the class and say what I need to say, you know, share my English presentation. And then the more that we can be okay and accept that they're there, they then we're not severing off or, you know, allowing ourselves to remain fragmented, right? We're we're bringing ourselves together, we're becoming more whole and integrated. And imagine that. Imagine if teachers were given that awareness as part of, you know, their university degree or or even just through the school, the school's frameworks and policies, that we need to teach children about emotional intelligence and cultivate self-awareness. So the idea of self-awareness. Yeah. If we don't have the self-awareness, it doesn't lead to self-management, which is, you know, course correction or regulation or reframing or doing whatever mindfulness practice practices we need to, and then self-leadership. We can then choose with agency and a sense of empowerment what to do next and respond to the situation, whether it's a fight with a kid in the schoolyard or, you know, not getting, you know, getting a fail, you know, on a test. We have more agency and we can respond and make that mean a certain thing rather than reacting to the external situation and then using that as evidence to shame ourselves or to feel like a failure or to further perpetuate why we won't amount to anything, etc. So I know that's a lot to share, but not at all.
SPEAKER_01I'm really appreciating all of the detail and I'm also putting on my teacher practical brain because I want to I want to reflect back what you're saying and see if I've understood. You're not saying let's take English out of the curriculum by any means, but you're saying that within what we've already got in the curriculum, such as English, there's usually some sort of oral presentation somewhere along the lines. And increasingly teachers are telling me that the number of students in the class that say, I've got too much anxiety, I'm trauma blocked, I'm something, something, and a lot of that will be very, very real for them. But as well as understanding what those individuals need and listening to what they actually need to be able to bring in that understanding of what happens physically in your body when you get anxious, particularly in a situation like public speaking, so that teachers have a little bit more upskilling, I suppose, in how those dynamics influence people, so that they can be a little bit more generous and saying, this is okay, you haven't failed. I loved that piece. That's going to stay with me. And we can work together to allow you to fulfill your purpose, which might not have to be public speaking, but public speaking is such a powerful tool. I know this is a podcast, so clearly public speaking is part of it. Um and the people who come on generally are really good at public speaking in some way. They've got that confidence. But every person that I've spoken to through the podcast and in life generally, who has those public speaking skills, who has that confidence to be in front of a room is doing really well in life, not just in terms of the money that they pocket each week, but in terms of their personal satisfaction, their sense of purpose in the world. It's really, really lovely. So I can really understand that it's in some ways a fairly simple thing to inject into an existing curriculum, and in other ways, such a powerful one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I'd love to add a nuance to that as well. And yeah, I appreciate everything that you've shared. So it's this idea that we want to set, I feel like that we weren't set up for success at those deeper, more impactful, powerful levels. So suggestions being, how can we, you know, if we had conversations around emotional intelligence, feeling trauma and sensations in your body. So you're essentially helping people that might feel, you know, down here to raise them up to empower them. On the flip side, I want to share a very interesting observation. On the flip side, it's so important in schools that we also not only empower individuals, but also help humble people. So in the schoolyard, still you have the queen bees or you know, the popular people. And still to this day, people get caught up in what brand they wear or what their family members can afford or can't afford. And then people are kind of put in these boxes and alienated and isolated because they're not wearing, you know, the top brand clothing, or, you know, so it's also interesting if teachers were to observe how people, how groups and individuals are being organized and why that is, and actually bringing a bit of a reality check to the table. I want to share some key examples here. So I know some people that were top performers and you know, golden childs and you know, queen bees, and um, you know, the popular kids and what you know people would call the alphas and you know, just just silly, silly stuff. But and that was in school, right? So, school, you're a big fish in a little pond. Guess what happens though? You finish school and you're out in the real world. And I know several people that are very close to me that were the big fish, and then they get out in the real world and they realize that they're a nobody, genuinely. They are a nobody, and so their ego can't handle that. So they take shortcuts, they get into drugs, they go down the wrong path, and they're just constantly in this trap of seeking gratification and instant, you know, yeah, instant gratification and validation, and they don't want to humble themselves and do the hard yards. So I feel like schools have two jobs. It's not only to empower people, but it's also to set people up and share the reality, give the real lay of the land and and have conversations. Hey, I noticed, you know, you you've got all the bravado and you know, everyone's laughing at you and you know, praising you, and you you've clearly got it easy in school, mate. But when you get out into the real world, you might have a very different experience. I'm not saying you will have a different experience, but just check yourself. You know, it's so important to be hungry and ambitious in school and get first place and be school captain and all of this stuff, and you look good in a very small pond. But just be aware of the flip side. It's a big wide world out there, and once you finish year twelve and you graduated, you I hate to and this isn't me being negative, I don't think, you're a nobody. You're one in billions of people in school, you're one in a couple of hundred. Do you know what I mean? So I just wanted to.
SPEAKER_01I'm currently wanting to ask you to help me if those if any of those people would be willing to share their stories, because their stories would really, really contribute to this picture.
SPEAKER_04For sure. I'll definitely reach out to some people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that would be so good. And uh teachers, we don't know what to do until we hear from people uh to help us with that. We get a lot of uh noise really from a lot of different voices in uh schools and outside of schools saying do this, do this, do this. And whenever there's a problem in society, teachers have to dot dot dot, whatever it is, which is uh really hard work. But when it's uh so personal as these podcasts can be, uh and that's why I've set it up this way. Uh I want the actual story from the actual human who lived that experience to come and say, well, this is what uh was like for me when I was at school, and this is what it's been like since. And I would like to tell you whatever it is that they have.
SPEAKER_04Two more gaps that I think are fundamental that I've noticed that I really think should be involved in schooling. So you you you touched on earlier about you know, you experience both sides of the spectrum, which is awesome. You got to really craft and create your own curriculum. One thing that I think that's missing with teachers is there's not enough curiosity and following that understanding and the willingness to be compassionate and adapt. So often I would notice teachers would come to school, they would just read out of the books. You could tell they weren't personally truly interested in delivering the subject because they were just repeating what was in the book. And the moment a student strayed off course or made things a little bit difficult for the teacher, whether they're being, you know, rebellious or being distracted or distracting others, whatever it might be, not performing the way they wanted to, you'd often just get very dry transactional behavior from teachers. Instead of getting curious, and you know, and I understand this isn't taught for the most part in the teaching curriculum, or maybe it is now, but everyone is wired differently. We have different learning styles. I touched on in our first take this idea of um format thinking methodology. So you've got um people that just are naturally inclined to focus on the why. They want the big picture and the context. Then you've got others that are focused on the what. They want to know just all the parts and the key chunks of information. Then you've got those that are focused on the how, you know, the process. And then the people that are constantly asking, but why what happens if this happens? What will happen if this happens? So all the what ifs, just that framework alone. In well, it in addition to, you know, people learn through tactile through play, uh, kinesthetic learners, people learn through vision more visually. Um, people like to listen. So auditory learning. And there's different modalities of learning. And I just don't think that so that's one key gap. Teachers don't have a true appreciation. I I feel like they just want to have each student fit the same mold, the same template to make their life easier because they've got their own stuff and challenges going on at the end of the day. And maybe they're not getting the right support from the school. And maybe that's contributing to it too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's there's so many dynamics in the system. There's an overcrowded curriculum. So we're trying to squeeze a lot of content all the time, and that tends to, I'm definitely guilty of this at times when I've been teaching, I just want to go fast. And the child that's being the clown in the room is stopping me from going fast. So I want to move away from that clown behavior as quickly as I can, which means I'm not responding to that clowning behavior, which has obviously got various causes behind it. I'm not responding to it with curiosity because I want that to be as fast an interaction as possible so I can get back to the content. And that's one of the things that is a dynamic for teachers. It's not always that we're just looking for our paycheck to pay our mortgage. It's also a lot of different dynamics. But more recently, there's been a very strong message to teachers in the Catholic system, at least, which is where I work. Um, what if it's not their fault? So just having that framing of, okay, there's that behavior of somebody clowning around in the corner and they're not actually focused on their work and they're stopping a very a variety of other children to also distracting them from their work. What if it's not their fault? What if there is something and therefore that phrase by itself, it creates the curiosity, it creates the empathy, it creates the listening, it creates the what can I do to actually um move this together? But to do that, I've got to really push back on the pressure to get things done and just say, I'm here to teach the people in this room. That's my job. And the amount of content that I am able to lit to deliver is actually going to increase if I come with more of that, what if it's not their fault framing?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, very well said. Powerful question. And I can see that that would really depersonalize it and make the teacher realize, well, it's actually not about me. They're not poking fun at me or trying to undermine me. They've just got some stuff going on. But what I am surprised with, and I don't know if it is taught, you know, to empower and equip teachers because they play such a critical role in society. And, you know, one thing that I learned was um it's a technique called utilization, it's called utilization. So in public speaking, for instance, if you've got someone who, you know, asks a question or makes a comment, why don't we utilize the class clown? If they're willing to speak up and put on an act, get them to come up to the front of the class and help them maybe get a bit of energy out of their system. It's like, okay, you know, whatever their name might be, hey, come up to the front. Um, you're quite active. Everyone else is listening, but there's something in you that wants to move and move about and and muck around. I'd love your help. You'd be a great volunteer. Get them out of their chair, get them to start reading out of the book, ask them a couple of questions, help them get whatever's out of their system. And maybe it'll also humble them a little bit because now they're in front of everyone. So, what a great way to humble them, like we're talking about before. They're on display, they're in the public eye, they're not hiding at the back of the room and just seeing the backs of everyone's heads. Now that person's all of a sudden seeing everyone's eyes straight on them, maybe it might provide a bit of a reference check. So, how can it's kind of like in martial arts, how can a teacher embrace the chaos or the situation? And rather than blocking it and just taking the arrow or taking the hit, how can they grab it and maneuver it and use it to actually teach that person a valuable lesson or to bring them in almost as a prop and a resource to convey whatever needs to be taught? You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and amazing. And I have seen teachers do that beautifully. I want to add the nuance to that to do it without. Shaming the person because it's a little bit easy if you're in the position as a teacher and you're getting frustrated that this is not the first time, not the second time, it's the 20th time to bring, yeah, you might bring that class clan up, but to do it without the shaming element, which we can sometimes let go of when we're frustrated.
SPEAKER_04Well, so imagine 100% imagine the perfect example. If I envision how this would play out, what a teacher would say, if, and once again, if it was common knowledge that we learned about our nervous systems and regulation, hey, I've just noticed John is John, you you're quite fiddly and moving. Everyone else is calm and grounded, and you, you know, it sounds like you haven't uh it looks like maybe you you still want to play or you know, you're a bit fidgety. Um am I right in you know, in that observation, John? You know, you just you're you're quite you want to move about, you want to play, you've got some energy, you want to move around. Yeah, fair enough. Can anyone else relate to you know, John right now? So you can get a bit of buy-in and and validation and you know, well, John, you you're not alone, mate. I just and you can have a conversation around, look, John, you're probably a little bit unregulated from you know being out in the playground just before. But I really want you to just take a couple of deep breaths if you can. And maybe we can all stop for a minute and just take a couple of deep breaths into our belly as opposed to breathing up really shallow, because shallow, you know, breathing, it doesn't help us regulate and it can perpetuate feelings of anxiousness. But if we breathe into our belly and breathe out a little bit longer than we breathe in, that's going to start to activate our parasympathetic nervous system and we can relax a little bit more. And John, just I want to check in with you. Do you feel a little bit more relaxed now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay. I want you to notice, John. My game for you, John, is that when your hands get fidgety and you when you want to distract other people, I just want you to be mindful that they're here to learn and they want to get the most out of their schooling. And I bet you do as well on some level. So let's just work together on that if that's okay. And get some commitment. You know, so that's there's just, and now this is I'm not talking down to the person. And I would experience that a lot from teachers when a ch kid was in the too hard basket. There was a lot of talking down as opposed to talking with. Right.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, one example I'm probably oversharing in terms of detail, but I'm I'm gonna go back into the thinking thing that you said talked about. You called it format thinking, and it was about what, how, why, and what if. Um, I'd really like to expand a little bit more because on any given content piece, you could actually just do what and drill what and make sure, have you got this? Do you know what? But every piece of what will always have a how, a why, and a what if if you're prepared to allow that to come in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so well said. And I'd love to add here, and I share this in take one, um, I feel like for me, my education experience was more about the what, and I'm very much a why. I love big picture. I also like the detail, but I'm more a why, a how, and a what if, and far less about the what. If I know the why, the what comes naturally. If I know the why, the how comes naturally. And if I can answer some what-ifs, the what it just knows its place so much quicker in my mind. And so I feel like school in many respects taught me what to think, not how to think or why to think. You know, I wasn't even told why learning English was important. Now we know that it's pretty obvious, you know, we need to learn and talk and communicate.
SPEAKER_02Uh and read and write.
SPEAKER_04There was, yeah, and read and write, but there's there was barely any context even on that fundamental level. So there's not only learning about, you know, that the format method, you know, why, what, how, what if, but also I didn't experience enough inductive thinking. It was very deductive. It's like imagine a black dot in the middle of a white page, and we would just have to study the black dot, why the black dot was there, and just drill down more and more into that black dot. So I I feel like my blinders were on and my vision and my thinking became more myopic. It was just it was about the what and about the black dot rather than the why, the how, and the what if, and all of the white space. So we've got obviously inductive thinking versus deductive thinking. Now, I wasn't taught that in school. And some people have an inclination to be more inductive than deductive. And to have that self-awareness would have been important. The second thought category or or lens or contrast frame we can look through is convergent thinking versus divergent thinking.
SPEAKER_01Yep. You know, I love I love the image of a pottery wheel. You know, when you throw the clay on the wheel, literally, and it goes splat, hopefully, close to the middle of the wheel. And then as you spin the wheel, you bring the clay up and then bring it out and bring it up and bring it out. And it's the process of both of those working together that actually centers the clay. So that convergent divergent, it's a reminds me of that process of centering the clay, of both of those work together because you need the space to have all of the crazy ideas and not worry about whether they're going to work at all or not. And then go, okay, which ones have got the highest probability and go back to you know, narrowing it down again. I love that.
SPEAKER_04Well, it almost very much touches on, you know, I was never taught the idea of left brain and right brain.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04And that, you know, see, for me, I was a left-hander, right? But I would do some things right-handed as well.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_04So for me, I could kind of I was very creative, but I was also quite analytical and technical. So I kind of moved between left and right brain quite easily or or fluidly. Uh, but other people may not have any creativity, and they grew up thinking that they're broken. They were never taught, they were never told that, oh, like I'm not good at art or I'm not good at this. And then some people that were no good at maths, you know, so um very logical, you know, um, logically minded. And it's learning about these things and the different ways of thinking and problem solving, not just problem solving a problem. Here's a problem to solve, but understanding problem solving almost as its own subtopic and how to think and how to respond. It's just a lot of that's missing for me.
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. It's a massive, massive debate debate at the moment in the education space. There's people saying we need a knowledge-rich curriculum, and they're saying that if we don't have good knowledge, then we can't interact with the texts and the people and and the things around us. Um, and to not give that would be uh to not provide for our young people. Then there's another group that is saying problem solving is actually where it's at because it's the kind of analytical thinking, finding the patterns, figuring out possible solutions with the plural, and then looking towards what's most effective and why. Is that the minority?
SPEAKER_04Let me get it.
SPEAKER_01We need all of it. I think that format of what, how, why, and what if that they're actually all in dynamic dance with each other. So it shouldn't be a polarization, and it's become a polarization. And I find it hard to listen to sometimes the more extreme sides of that polarization.
SPEAKER_04Oh, well, and I think that's actually a battle within the human mind itself. Is this as within, so without? So there's this idea of um do I focus on the micro or do I focus on the macro? Do I focus on the content or do I focus on the context? And and the metaphor that comes to mind here um, do I try and see the parts for the whole or the whole for the parts? Or some or more commonly, you know, when you hear, oh, they just can't see the forest for the trees. Well, that's because in school we were taught to see the trees for the forest. So we were taught to just focus so we we weren't taught to zoom out and question why we're doing it, how we're doing it. We weren't taught to question context. We were taught to just focus on the content and be more narrow in our thinking, based on my experience. So I think that I'm glad that that debate is happening. And I think it is not one or the other, it's how can we integrate both because both are essential. You can't have the parts, you you can't understand the whole without understanding the parts, and you can't understand the parts without knowing the the whole, without having the context.
SPEAKER_01Seems clear to me as well. So that was the first gap you mentioned. Thank you for being so detailed in your explanation about that. What was the second gap that you wanted to talk about?
SPEAKER_04The second gap. Now, this this gap was brought to my attention probably six months ago speaking to a school teacher that still teaches at the school uh that I went to school at. And he mentioned how disengaged uh children uh are becoming, you know, between seven to he was in the campus of uh year seven to year nine, but also happening year 10 to year 12. So they were two different campuses, but the same issue was occurring. How disengaged and unattentive and just not showing up to school at all, not engaged whatsoever. And I asked him what he thought some of the causes were, and he mentioned that, well, parents are a huge part of the problem. And me and my background thinking from a systemic point of view, who are all the key stakeholders that can make the the schooling experience at 13 years well spent, truly well spent, and will parents have such a huge part to play in that. And I've wondered, and I think back to you know, my parents' involvement in school, in my schooling, and I don't know whether things have changed now, but I just question and I still see obviously today that it is a key gap, considering this teacher brought it to my attention and he's in the trenches, knows what it's like firsthand. And yeah, essentially it makes me think, well, is there an aspect of the curriculum or the structure that should also involve parents, whether that's once a fortnight, once a month, and it's a workshop where parents get to come together with teachers, so without the children, and they can learn and become more equipped and empowered, especially as children uh, you know, becoming adolescents, teenagers, going through that whole journey. It, you know, obviously every age of a child's development brings its own set of challenges. But one might argue that there's less cooperation, more rebellion, uh, a lot more exposure to outside influence, whether that's through friends, through social media on your mobile phones, and that can then obviously sway the behavior of teenagers. So, and that can be a really hard thing for parents. So it makes me wonder, well, why are parents a problem? Is it because they're just they throw it in the too hard basket, or they don't have the tools, or they themselves are children in adult costumes and they are ill-equipped and inept in many ways, and therefore they need to continue their schooling and education journey, but specifically in the context of uh how can I prep my child, my teenager, for the world beyond school, just like the schooling system is doing the best they can with with what they have to do the same thing. So that's the key gap.
SPEAKER_01I've I've got a couple of thoughts of that. I'm in a primary sector, so I don't have as much uh first hand experience in the secondary sector. But the two things that jump into my mind as potential bumps towards parental involvement, particularly in secondary. The first is the parents tend to drop off. They're they're busy, they're often, often busy. And the way our economy is with uh both parents often needing to work to sustain the lifestyles that people are wanting. Those sorts of practical factors. Also, the children if I can say children for teenagers, the young people in that 14, 15, 16, 17 category aren't that keen to have their parents front and centre anymore. They're really making bonds with their peer groups rather than with their parents. And I'm not sure that they would be excited in the same sort of way that the five-year-old or the six-year-old is excited to have their parent at school and part of that involvement. What do you think of that?
SPEAKER_04That's very interesting. My my initial thoughts on that is so how is it packaged? How is it sold? How is what's the context? What's so if if if teenagers uh I I think it comes down to, and I'm thinking through my with my business hat on here, it depends how it's pitched and sold, and and how those seeds are sown from maybe even year seven. Maybe it's a program that kicks in around year year eight or year nine, where it's once a month. The children aren't even involved or at school at the time. Maybe it's after school when the parents have finished work. And maybe also it could just be for when not across the board, but for certain indicators uh being triggered around the the child's engagement or attendance or performance and everything else that the parent is then brought in. So it's not just a one size fits all. If a if a teenager is super attentive, uh engaging, you know, A-class, a grade student, then maybe it wouldn't apply to to that parent. But the those that aren't uh meeting just the baselines that are required, well, it's only fair that the parents are brought into the fold and consulted and because they're obviously a part of the problem, but also, you know, and maybe to some degree, and some might say, well, no, but there's there's no way of negating responsibility for being part of the solution.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I cannot imagine that there would be a school that would not bring parents into a conversation when there was something that needed addressing for a child or for a young person. So that's definitely already happening. But it what I'm hearing from you is there might be a way of packaging parent involvement in the secondary space that isn't uh a nanny sort of feeling for the young people, but more of a positive experience because those parental conversations when it comes from something that's not working can be on the negative side.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and imagine if a bunch of parents came together once a month and connected with teachers and yeah, other parents that might be going through similar things, and it's purely about having a shared sense of belonging, uh, a sense of I see you, I see what you're going through, oh no way, I thought I was isolated and alone in that. Imagine even especially for single parents, single mothers, single fathers, to know that they can come to school outside of ours, connect with other parents that could be in a similar situation, have that sense of I see you, sense of belonging, sense of, oh, okay, it's it's it's not just me. This is a shared experience. And then whether teachers or external professionals provide some kind of curriculum to further empower children, to get them engaged to come to school, to see the big picture, to prep them for the big wide world when they finish. So, yeah, more from that positive empowerment sense of belonging space. Uh, and it's probably also a great way for teachers and the school to get even more detailed feedback of what's actually happening in the child's life outside of school. What are the other factors going on at uh outside? So it's a it's a feedback exercise, it's an empowerment exercise. Uh I can only really see upside out of something like this.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm can we finish up here with just a little bit about content itself? You've experienced your 13 years, so you've got a reasonable sense of what content you got in your 13 years of education. Is there any of that that you would take out or put something else in in terms of content?
SPEAKER_04You see, uh if I were to take out anything, it wouldn't be taking out uh something that is on its own. It would be just reducing the volume of insert content here so that it would create space for new things. So I wouldn't necessarily remove anything uh for the sake of removing things, I'd only be removing things purely to create space for more meaningful things to be added in. So obviously we remove things, but the key purpose is well, what can we add in that's useful? And I touched on quite a few things before.
SPEAKER_01Can we have a look at what we would reduce then? So is there anything the one that's jumping into my head because a few other people have said it, book reports? They feel like, okay, one book report, two book reports, even three, that's fine. But not book report over book report over book report.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, look, I I think that's um, I agree with that as well. But see, once again, if we were operating within a different system, would we have more of a tailored bespoke approach to each individual? Because I could say take out maths because I have a bias towards not enjoying maths, maths was useful, maths didn't this, maths didn't that. I don't use it now, um, or English or you know, uh history because supposed there there's there's so many things that I think are wrong when it comes to our history books, anyway. Um I I'd actually, you know what? If if I were to remove something just thinking out loud, I'd probably remove half of what I've taught about history, about wars, um, how they were funded, how they how they were created, uh and on that note, I would add in learning, and I mentioned this in take one, learning how the world works. So even us asking, well, why? So the question, you know, what would we change? What would we add in? What wouldn't we add in? Well, let's ask, let's zoom out and look at the context. Why is the education system designed the way it is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Who benefits from it being in a certain way, including certain things and not including other things? I think my belief, and when I finished high school, I learned really over years, not straight away, over many years, you know, running my own companies and doing different things and operating at different levels. I learned much about how the world truly works, especially when you follow the money and where money leads. See, I don't believe personally, and sorry, I know I'm going, I'm deviating a bit here, but I think it's juicy conversation for the listeners. I I I don't think we live in a democracy. I think we live in a kleptocracy, which is essentially money talks. And we are controlled and dictated by a ruling class. I don't think governments sit above companies. I think companies and organizations sit above governments. So if we learn about how money works and how money talks, and people follow. The money to all corners of the earth and where it comes from and how it's made and who has most of it and why that is, and lobbying and funding, and how these different corporations influence and persuade and even coerce governments and uh bodies, organizations that literally dictate and run our society banking, legal, education, healthcare, healthcare. It makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't make a lot of dollars. We live in a system and a society where mental health is increasing, disease and sickness is increasing. You've got more children with, you know, all sorts of issues, questioning things that they would never question, wouldn't even cross their mind, and now all of a sudden they're questioning their own identity on so many levels, you know, and they're they're feeling pressured to figure out what they want to do when they grow up and you know, all the rest of it. So it's like, why is all of this happening? So follow the money, follow the powers that be, and you won't like what you find, but it they they say the truth will piss you off first, but then it will set you free. And I think most of us are hoodwinked and have our head in the sands because we're not willing to ask the tough questions. And at an individual level, it's very hard to influence the system. So that was a round, that was a very long way of saying, well, well, that's something that I would add in. But you know what? It's a bit naive of me to think that the education system would talk and mention those things because, in my opinion, uh, and I'm I've spent a lot of work working through my own realizations, so I don't have a negative, depressed, I'm not a negative, pessimistic, depressive person. I'm actually, you know, very much by default an optimist. You know, I'm always inventing things, creating things, entrepreneurial, trying to solve problems and add value to the world. But one thing that's apparent to me is that the system, the overarching system and the educational system being one of those systems within the overarching, you know, societal economic machine that we're a part of is that the powers that be at the very at the top top levels want us to be dumb, sick, and have little to no agency because it's about control. So the more empowered, the more I know about my emotions at a deep level, the more I understand my emotions, not just asking who am I, but what am I and what am I a part of, understanding trauma, understanding conflict negotiation, understanding problem-solving approaches and how to be adaptable and all these beautiful fundamental things. When we grow up and leave, you know, the little pond that we're we're um being indoctrinated in in many ways, uh, you will have far more agency, you'll feel so much more empowered, you'll have so much freedom of choice to decide what you want to do and how you want to add value to the world. And I just don't think that's taught at school. And I think it's for for some sad reasons. Um yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_01I really, really appreciate your views, your passion, your articulation about it all. It's really, really appreciated. Let's finish it off with what's next for Brad.
SPEAKER_04What's next for Brad? Uh well, I'm working on a couple of different projects. So, as I mentioned, my background's in organizational psychology. So I have my own um company that specializes in executive coaching and leadership development. Uh, I'm I'm currently building a people management, a human resources software to provide to small businesses. There's lots of businesses, especially out in the regions, that don't understand people, don't know how to track if they're getting a good return on investment out of their people. And often wages are a business's greatest cost and also, therefore, a greatest risk. So, how can we how can we increase our return on people investment, but also retain talent? How can we meet their needs? How can we accommodate? How can we help them feel a sense of belonging, feel challenged, experience a sense of growth, feel engaged? So that's what I'm working on at the moment. But if if I may, uh I'd love to end on a really powerful poem that I heard.
SPEAKER_01Can I pause you a tiny, tiny bit? Because I'd love for that powerful poem to be our absolute conclusion and give you a bit of space just before it to say what your company is and how people might find you if they're interested in those sorts of services.
SPEAKER_04Yes. So so my uh company is called Objective Consulting. And so for those that have obviously listened to these podcasts, obviously I've got different opinions about a whole bunch of different things. Uh and and that is all probably arisen out of my deep passion and curiosity for understanding uh the human psyche, understanding people, and understanding how to create um success, you know, in in the business and workplace setting as well as, you know, in relationships between other people. So, yeah, you can people can find me at objectiveconsulting.com.au. I also actually have a leadership assessment tool, which so I don't know about you, but I I love personality profiling tools and everything else. And I created my very own leadership assessment tool. Uh, and it's to do with um understanding your relationship with power, uh, which I which I think is a fundamental aspect of those that are in positions of power and in leadership positions. Understanding your relationship with power, and then as a result, how do you relate to people? How do you solve problems and interact? Do you talk down to people? Do you talk up to people? Do you step in too soon and try and take control? Or do you step back and neglect the situation at hand? So all those kinds of things, which is I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02So we're doing that tool.
SPEAKER_04Uh so that's on the website, and in the menu, it's you'll see a button called leadership assessment. You click on that, it's free. Uh, it takes about five minutes to complete. And for those that are into people and psychology, and you know, even if you're a teacher and you want to figure out, you know, how do you position and relate to to kids? And if you keep bumping up against your own, you know, invisible ceiling where you're struggling, this will absolutely give you some clarity and direction of how you can interact and relate with people in a more effective and and harmonious way.
SPEAKER_01Sounds amazing. Okay, let's finish off with that nugget that you were about to say.
SPEAKER_04Yes. So, as I mentioned, a book that completely changed the trajectory of my life, um Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. There was a great poem in there, and I want to just um read that poem. And the reason I want to share this poem out of all the different poems that I've come across is because one of the key things that I learned is is pretty much what I was sharing with you before, that you can achieve whatever you put your mind to, and you reap what you sow. So here it is. I bargained with life for a penny, and life would pay no more. However, I begged at evening when I counted my scanty store. For life is a just employer, he gives you what you ask, but once you have set the wages, why you must bear the task. I work from manials higher, only to learn dismayed, that any wage I had asked of life, life would have willingly paid. So think big, think better.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so so much for your time, your patience, and your willingness to do this twice. Thanks, Brad.
SPEAKER_04Thanks, Susan. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Once again, such an interesting story. And I again feel a little bit blindsided, and I really feel like by this stage in the recordings, there would be more repetition of different people's stories. But it just goes to show that we do need each person to come and tell their own story because Brad had a completely different perspective again on school-based education. As with many guests who've come on to tell their stories. Brad appreciates the basics. The basics really are not in question. The basics being able to write and read and converse using English as the dominant language in this country and basic matter to be able to do the basic things that you need to function in the country. But Brad said that essentially his education kind of was incomplete because at that pivotal point when he read the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, he cried because he felt that so much of the things that he learnt through that book could have been taught in school-based education. So Brad's not wanting to actually change any particular part of the curriculum. Leave the subjects the way they are, just reduce some things. He agreed with the book report idea, but he was also looking at history as a place to reduce. And as you reduce some of that maybe a little bit more repetitive side of the learning curriculum, create space for the things that for him were much more important in understanding how life works. And that was to do with how to think, to move from the what, which he felt was very, very heavily done for him in his school-based education, and move more into why, how, and what if. Personally, for me, the what if just always lights me up because I love to imagine new scenarios of anything. So what if is my favorite of those ones. But he was also talking a lot. Being a psychologist himself, I can understand that this might be more dominant in his thinking than perhaps another person. And again, that's why we have all of the stories. Brad was talking a lot about emotional intelligence and identity and how you come to get those sorts of things. They're hard to kind of list into a school curriculum. And it's one of the reasons why there has been a little bit of like it's there, but it's not in the same subject areas as maths, English, science. And there's been a lot of work in education. I know there's been a lot of work in education to bring that to the forefront more strongly. And I wonder why it is that we still are talking about it not being there as strongly as it could be. Now I loved the piece where we drilled down into a specific example, thinking about the English space and being able to think of how an English teacher, all teachers of course, but in this particular situation where a student is asked to do an oral presentation, how might a teacher bring in the understanding of how emotions sit in your body and noticing the physicality of those emotions as well as being able to name them, as well as knowing techniques to ease them, like the deep belly breathing and also the possibilities of moving with those feelings and still doing what it is that you're aiming to do. It's not so much that Brad was talking about changing the curriculum as changing the lens through which we look at the curriculum as it stands. And those lenses would be a lot more to do with understanding the self, the embodiment of self, which works beautifully because very, very soon I will be interviewing Guy Claxton himself. Yes. And one of the books that he's written, his most recent book with Emily Powell, I hope I've said her name correctly, is Bodies of Learning, where he talks about embodiment and how the body does hold both the learning and the life experience. And what is learning if it's not developing in life? So that was a beautiful segue into what's coming up next. And I really appreciate Brad's point of view. I really appreciate his expertise. It was almost like I was having an educator reflection in many ways, because Brad actually has so much expertise in his own space of psychology and also his own life of working through the things that he felt that he missed. Starting with that book. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. So thank you again to Brad. And if you would like to share your story on this podcast, please do get in touch with me. 13 YearsWellSpent at gmail.com. 13 is a word, not a number. Or if you've got any ideas that you've thought of since listening to this, also get in touch with me. Let me know what you think. Bye for now. We've got some good things coming up. Please listen into the next one. See ya.