ANC History: Episode 1: Before 1912. Prof. Sifiso Ndlovu & Prof. Bongani Ngqulunga

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi sits down with Prof. Bongani Ngqulunga and Prof. Sifiso Ndlovu on the history of the ANC.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So the what I I I I think uh Bongan you must do for us is introduce prof. Yes. And prof will introduce because I I I realized as we were speaking interesting tensions.

SPEAKER_06 0:18

No, I were who prof is. It's quite interesting actually because no, he is unique actually in the academy. Uh because uh he writes about he will start from way way from in a sense the 18th century, early 18th century. You write about numbers, write about all the way to so 1976. Yeah, like basically he writes about uh the 200 years of South Africa's history, in a sense, that is quite uh extraordinary. I I try from the from the 1800s uh to the to the 1900s, but he goes at least a century ahead of of me, in a sense, in what he likes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Not in not in that in literal age time.

SPEAKER_06 1:24

No, no, no, not in literal age.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

It does look like it's a century.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

That's what these two books, this one and this one about what you've just said.

SPEAKER_07 1:34

Yeah, this one and this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And and yeah, I I got Professor And Love gave me um the Union of South Africa and the Soviet Union.

SPEAKER_06 1:46

Union, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Uh an interesting correlation. These are unions. Yes, in a sense. In a sense, yeah. But um, we were he did this deliberately because of the debate uh Jeremy and I. Well, I don't think Jeremy was debating me, but yeah, I had written something which evoked the origins of the native Republic.

SPEAKER_06 2:19

Oh, the native republic basis, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, which uh the book is based on an important an important uh archive of the communist international, yes. Yes, yeah, uh but this is 1910 to 1961, the two unions. In that sense, the Union of South Africa is older than the Soviet Union.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yes, that's my argument. Yes, yes, the NC is older than the Communist Party. But you get people arguing that the Communist Party influences the NC.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

The Communist Party of South Africa. That was my battle.

SPEAKER_06 2:55

The Communist Party of South Africa. No, or the Communist Party.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Today, but I mean, by that time, the people who decided to form the NC in 1912 are quite aware what is the question in the part.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

But we are told that no, it's only the communist party which made these ones conscious of the issue about what is the but they were not even yet, but they are born in 1921. In 1917, it's just the revolution. You know, they come into being as a CPSU communist party of 1921.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Five years after the mission of the age.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

But the others by the Russian oh, the Russian revolution official the revolution, that's true. Yeah, after the revolution, and ours also come into being, but you are telling people who have been around then by nine.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

The defeat of the Tsar, yeah, February. But Proof, maybe then I was doing that deliberately. Uh would say uh Bonganimus uh I'm happy.

SPEAKER_06 4:01

I'm happy yeah, yeah, I'm happy to introduce him actually. Because uh I do think other than the purposes of this thing, uh he he has not been given recognition that I think he deserves as a historian. I'll just look at these books alone. It's just and this is not just uh therefore this is just uh yeah, I say, Prof, let's meet to discuss, and then it's there's always a book for him for every for every topic, for every topic we want to discuss with him.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

He comes uh when I meet him next week, he will want the review of all of them. I don't know where I find the time, but um please proceed, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:44

No, Professor uh Swiss Goliath Sab. Um, I mean he's one of the extraordinary historians, actually. Uh that Africa has produced uh you know what usually happens with historians, they will focus on small periods, they become specialists. I mean, for very short periods. His scholarship spends literally the two centuries um of modern South African history. In a sense, I mean, he has written about uh I said before uh Bombas written about Kabai, Nabu Tsibeni in uh in in Swazerland, but also he has written about in the history of the ANC, the history of the South African Communist Party. The Soweto uh prison in 1976, and there is a book about that here, and I think it makes him uniquely qualified. Yeah, not to talk just about the history of the ANC, but also about the history of our people.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I I do think maybe this is an opportune time if uh flex you could bring the whole volume of Sadat. Because I think just to foreground um what what type of work here and just the whole volume, yeah. Uh yes. I mean it's uh it's not actually the whole volume here, but isn't that one the top one?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yes, so and by the way, just that the taboo, the top, the one at the talks on tabomp.

SPEAKER_06 6:23

So and just that's a dead volume, yes, Dr. Luz.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I and and um possibly building blocks, no? No, not building, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:35

But just this this this volume as a because I don't think this project, yeah, yes, this project.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Actually, there are 18 books.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

There's 18 books.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

We only have two, four, six. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

There's eighteen of eight.

SPEAKER_06 6:49

And and there is no academic in South Africa, friend, who has done something of this.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

This is an important project. I think I think must we we must keep it here on the table.

SPEAKER_06 7:02

I really think I really think we need to. Yeah, let's keep it here on the table. There's no scholar with gun work, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

And uh this is a sideshow, obviously, uh relative to this, yeah. But um very important. Um how many how many how many people here? 54. 54, yeah, John Strimla, Ben Churok, Chris Landsberg, uh Amim Umgwe, he was in the Bassader in Tanzania, uh to LB Sex, uh to Daute Giso, Andilen Aba, Jonas Kwawa, yeah, Willilen Chapo, Gloria Sorber, Julian Shitenze, you name them. Uh all saying what uh what they think of um President Mbeki. Yes, yes. Anyway, prof we we we I think that's an it's a nice introduction. Then I introduce uh prof Mulung.

SPEAKER_07 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Well, not really if we can populate the table like this. I don't say something in passing.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, I just wanted to say to say it that for me to be able to do my work, I just don't work in isolation in isolation. Yeah, I have to read other literature that is available out there because you certainly think that when you were at universities and when you were doing your bibliography and your reading, coming across it's a name like Molunga.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yeah, was but wasn't there in Flack Plus? I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying to say there's a funny joke about it.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

I'm trying to say whenever you were doing your footnotes and your bibliographing, there were no African authors. Yeah, authors like Prof. Whom I worked with because the original Sadet, you know, stuff was headed by him, so I worked under him. His work was banned, so we couldn't access it. So so so post-1994. It's not a coincidence that uh Prof. Is late. It should have existed clear, yeah. But but it was going to be bad. It was going to be bad. So I is one of the people that I make it a point that I read these work, yeah. Because it has suddenly come to my notice because I've worked under Prof. And I know that they share a background in terms of being sociologies, but but they're sociologies of a special kind. Historical. They are historical sociologies.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

And I'm a political sociologist. You see, in fact, well, in other respects, but yeah, yeah, mostly I'm just causing a lot of trouble.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

But they they they are scarce. The historical sociologies are scarce and very few, including Prof. And uh Prof. Ziman's, yeah. Very pretty. She's she's she's she's well. So it means to me, therefore, historical sociologies are pretty.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

No, I agree. And I did this exercise uh to to basically say to all of us uh as the audiences, particularly as African scholars, African thinkers, um, there are actually black professors.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And you can fill up who are alive.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Uh you can fill up the entire table with uh Professor Zovu's work. I mean, this is actually very limited. Here it's a lot of collaboration, you leading scholars of the same um uh generation of the generation before, generation younger, uh, to try and craft what could be a history towards a democratic project in South Africa, which I think um um uh is important, but to inspire everybody out there that we can also be scholars and and uh uh be alive and um it's not a thing that white people do only. Yeah, true yeah, but how about we go back to the ANC then? Yeah, I imagine that um hundred and forty years the ANC celebrates this year. Um maybe prof you you you break the ice for us with what are the conditions, circumstances uh what are the characters uh the places that bring about this date we call 1912 January 8th, where Africans gather in um uh Bloomfontein. In in your book about Pixley, you say there was only one woman in the hall. Yeah, uh Charlotte Charlotte McGrave. Uh anyway, that's what you have, and uh these people formed this thing, which by institutions, by organizations, um both formed by black and white people, uh, is one of the oldest living uh social formations. Uh so that would be my I think opening question.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Opening question.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Frame these places, figures, circumstances, conditions that bring about 1912.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

I think I think we're part of the international world, and we are also going to talk about these issues in terms of progressive internationalism. The AC is not an exception if you think about it, if you think about the Labour Party and the Conservative Party in the US, they are in the more than a hundred years old. Also, the parties in the US, the Republicans, you know, and their opponents. So, so, also, to some extent, we as South Africans, we have to be conscious of those histories. You tell that in terms of historical consciousness, it's not unique to the ANC. It's an issue that is there. But there's one thing I want to do is to focus on cultural history. If you think about it, as soon as the ANC comes into power in 1994, when they were dealing with issues like discussing public holidays in South Africa, there's one public holiday that remains that they inherit from the past. And it has to do with uh 16th of December. And and and that holiday has a protracted history, and it's still with us. It is called the Day of Reconciliation. How it originates, I mean, we know that when it comes to wars of resistance in our country, in our history as a country, they began the first day when the white person sat forth here, and the original freedom fighters, um, people whom we call the hoi and the sire. And those those of disposition are part of the history of December 16th. So it's also about land disposition, which is still with us today. But the fact is, as a historian, the question you have to answer, why focus on the 16th of December when we have a rich history prior to the 16th of December about issues that matter like land disposition? The answer might be the colonizers had to deal with a formidable character called uh King Tinganiga Senza Marcon. And it led them, it led them to fabricate history in as far as coming up with a name of referring to that holiday which they celebrated late nine uh late 1880s, and they called it the Blood River, and they said that that day for them. Up to this day, the founding myth is based on that. 1838 December, the defeat of King Tinganega Sensamnokon. Up to this day, you can't discuss the past, the history of our white compatriots called the Africaners without going back into that. But for us as Africans, you know, if you think about it, it's really not about African nationalism, it's about us as a black people and land disposition and the fact that King Tingan stood up and fought against that. And we do know that they falsified history when they came, that since then, since the 16th December, the South Africa belongs to them because they defeated him. We quite know very well that they didn't. The person who defeated King Tingan is his brother, Prince Mpade, in 1840, the battle impiace was also so so. For us, we have to take our history serious, in a sense that we have to go back into those times. You understand why I say they found the myth of the white Africanans in terms of the historical record is not correct. Because even by then, King Tingani had been involved in about six or seven battles with them, but it defeated them five times. But the sixth battle is the one that is pre-palled purpose into Eastern and it becomes a historical myth in terms of the founding of White South Africa. So, so to a large extent, I just want to take this opportunity of thanking you for bringing us here. Because the reason why I began with this narrative is that we don't know our past, we don't know our history. You know, so so because there's a completely different interpretation from white Africaners about what I've just said. You know, you know, and and that's what makes history, you know, interesting and serious.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Well, that would be maybe a half-s half story, but I wanted to move into that. I want to push you to paint for us the uh there's this consolidation of white defeats, which I hear you are mobilizing with this narrative that we have to dispel first and foremost that the founding moment of black-on-black violence gives advantage uh to a falsification where white people, specifically Africaners, say, you know, they conquered us, when from that moment Mbanze conquers. I get that, but okay, figures, circumstances, uh places that paint the canvas for the formation of the NC.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yes, then when we are busy then trying to make it a point that because King Ting and I say is for the first time in my life, King Shangra didn't have to deal with so many white people in the in the land. So he has a problem. So as a black person, he has to stand up and fight for his people who, you know, you know, because they are coming from all directions. They are calling themselves for trackers. And what they do when the English come in, you know, later in that space, they come up with so many legal tricks like the 1842 Land Delimination Commission. You know, and and if you do an end elimination commission, what does it mean? You give the land that is productive to these small groups of people in the in the in in the region that is in Southeast Africa, that is what we call KwaZulu-Natal now. Remember, everything is also has happened because the Cape is colonized in 1652. You know, we we we're talking 1842, which is a new event, historical event there. So there's that history. For me not to talk about it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But now The problem is as a black person now your land is taken away, and then now through the king and the queen in England, Queen Victoria, and you know, there's a land terminal termination commissions in your in your region. And then your land is taken away. King Pan is in charge now. So so so so these issues replicate themselves when now as the colonizers move into the interior, then the only thing that connects us to the international world then is the fact that we are the colony of Bhutan. But what makes what first strikes issues further is the discovery of the minerals. As this move is from the Cape is okay, we move into the interior, then comes Kimberley, gold, and diamonds. Then in that sense, we come, we become part of the international world because we have to set up mining, we have to set up communications, you have to set up uh banking, because um finance capital comes into the country. But as we are talking about all these issues, therefore, regardless of the fact that the monarchies and the Koi and the Sun are part and parcel of the broader challenge that we face. Our people decided to modernize their politics and they started in the regions where now we're part of the mineral revolution to set up different movements. There's one called, I think in KZN it's called the Funamalungelo. Well, it the name explains itself. You know, it is even formed even before uh the Natal Congress, African Congress is formed. So our people are conscious politically and otherwise, and they're quite conscious the fact that you know this uh economic dispensation that is you know uh that that has been imposed on us suddenly the question of class. It was raised before the land question, the question of class, because what you have to do now we need workers. When when when King Petway was defeated, the glorious regiments and Ahmabut suddenly were changed into workers. So they have to live was Zulu Natal after 1879 or the Zulu Kingdom, when it was defeated. Those warriors suddenly now become workers, you know, and and and they lost the land, so to speak. So that is why then down the line the Congress movement is formed, which is provincial, you know. But then we're quite aware that, as I said, um I'm specifically focusing on that region in Southeastern, which is called Gwazulun Natal. Now, parallel developments happen throughout southern Africa because you have mine workers recruited as far as Tanzania, Malawi, uh Zimbabwe, Mozambique. During that time, the late 1860s, and when the diamond mining revolution takes place and the gold was discovered. Now, how can you then claim that in the present, you know, we might be in a fallbook? Because at the end of the day, the fact of the matter that when people, when there are migrations moving from Southern Africa, those who move in as mine workers are part and parcel of us. Then. But in the present, when you discuss such challenges that are still happening, economic migration, you think that economic migration begins in 1994 and if and therefore it's a new phenomenon. No, it begins then, you know, and we become integrated and we become one, you know, because because because we're talking about class issues now. Now those different provincial agencies then soon match them from the organization, the South African Natives now Congress in 1912. But I'm going to speak about one issue, then I'll leave everything to my colleague to come in. When it was formed, it also is an issue that is also relevant now in the present. It has what it calls the house of chiefs, you know, as a structure. Therefore, it's not a coincidence that even today in our parliament we have a structure. But what is unique about this house of chiefs? Who is there? It is monarchies, monarchies from Zambia, Luanika, no of the Barut. It's monarchies from Lesotho, Lindsay, it's monarchies from Swaziland. You know, it's King Denis Zulu Zulus, it's monarchies from Botswana. But the monarchy from Swaziland, people make a mistake. They usually say it's King Sokuzawan. It's not him. He only takes up power when he the Queen Mother is his grandmother. Queen Mother Labotzibo and he passes away in 1921. He only cuts him. But so what is so special about Labotzibo? It means she is the first female leader of the ANC, and she's not necessarily a South African. You know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

This is amazing. I I do want to come back to this.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, yeah. I want to come back.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

I wanted to talk about hold the thought there. Yeah, because there has to be a proper account of that structure in its maybe a little bit of more detail. Yeah. I want uh prof you to come in, but um do the other parts uh of the places, characters, yes, as well as uh important circumstances that give rise uh to these characters gathering in 1920.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

Because there's 1909 later, yes. Okay, yeah. I mean, I think there is a context.

SPEAKER_06 29:38

Um perhaps to add to what Professor Nobri has said, let us go maybe 30-50 years before the formation of the AC, just I mean, really in broad strokes. I mean, South Africa in the before the discovery of diamonds and gold, especially gold in 18 LDCs, which uh brings to the formation of Johannesback. I mean, Johannesback is 140 years old this year, which is a significant moment because Johannesburg becomes a significant city, not only in the economic life of South Africa, but in its political life, and also in what the ANC becomes. But South Africa mostly up until the discovery of diamonds, it's really an agricultural economy.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, the entity we now call the agricultural. That's what I was hoping.

SPEAKER_06 30:41

That difference, I'll get there. Okay. I'll get there because that has a bearing to when the ANC gets formed. That this uh the I mean, even the political imagination, I mean, I mean, the ideas of forming this one entity is not slightly dependent on a South African state, I mean the United South African state, and that is the reason why the ANC Party gets formed in in 1912. But South Africa is an agricultural economy. Um, and and so the focus is on the dispossession of Africans, the dispossess of their land. Because uh, as white people move uh through South Africa, especially into the interior, they are finding these Africans who are occupying fertile land. I mean, and this is what gets uh dispossessed throughout throughout what we call South Africa today, and I think that is an important context uh to keep in mind. But who forms the ANC in 1912? I mean, so there are the pockets of educated Africans, but they are linked to missions. Uh and so they form mission communities. I mean, if you go to what we call the Eastern Cape today, uh these people are trusted around missions. I mean, these these Africans. If you go to Natalia, you find the same thing. If you go to what was called Transvaal, you find the same thing. If you go to what was called the Free State, you find these small communities of educated black people, right? Uh and these, in a sense, are the people who form organizations that eventually lead to the formation of what we call the ANC. And how their organizations are formed, this is the second half of the 19th century in the main.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

1850 this way.

SPEAKER_06 32:54

Now, this is 1850 this way. I mean, they were there educated Africans even before that. I mean, people like Teo Soka, right? I mean, Teosoka has gone to Scotland, I mean, to be educated there even before then. There are people like Feldman Piquecha, I mean, who's born around 1829 or so. So they are major political figures, they become major political figures. Some get born in the 1850s. I mean, I think uh J.T. Jabav gets born in 1859 and he plays an instrumental role. But what is critical about this group of educated Africans who are clustered around missions is because they are clustered around there because that is where they got their education. And in a sense, they develop through uh institutions and structures that are established by missions. It's quite interesting to me that even when black people start gaining voice, political voice, they start expressing their demands. I mean, using the forums, the mechanisms, the institutional mechanisms that are established through missions. I mean, if uh Christian missions. Christian missions. Christian missions. Um it's interesting if you take, for instance, somebody like John Tango Chabav, who starts the black, the first newspaper to be started by Africans. He is a product of these uh educated Africans, I mean, who grow from from the missions. There is something that happens though towards the end of the century that is critical to understanding the formation of the AIDS. I mean, I think the first, I mean, is the defeat of Africans, in a sense, through what usually is called uh colonial wars. I mean, if you think, I mean, Professor Nobez mentioned the defeat of uh the Zulus in 1879, but the Petis also get defeated in 1879 after the Zulus. I mean, the the what stories, the Torsas, they've gone through wars on for a century. Like the nine frontier wars, they are defeated. So by the end of the 19th century, for all intents and purposes, Africans have lost their independence. I mean, and so the mode and face of the world. They've lost political systems.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Political systems. They've lost an economy.

SPEAKER_06 35:42

Economic system. And and so confronting um white settler colonialism through uh often confrontation, military confrontation is no longer, in a sense, a viable option, right, by the end of the 19th century. And that is a critical point to keep in mind. Because then if Africans could not reclaim what they had lost in the battlefield through, how else do they do it? Do they do it? Then they start forming organizations, these political organizations. They start the newspapers. And most of this starts in the Eastern Cape, what we know is the Eastern Cape today, for a very particular reason. Uh I mean, I was talking about the frontier wars because they are critical, is also because the exist of the existence of these mission societies that establish institutions of education, because you can articulate your demands. I mean, once you gain the language, I mean, you know, the language of rights, I mean, the language of uh access to land, of representation, of representation. These are the people who get this language, I mean, this lexicon of political representation, of making demands and making claims through that. And so there are, I think it is critical to say that before the formation of the ANC in 1912, there were organizations that black people had established. But they were largely provincial organizations because what we know today as a united South African state did not exist then.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

But what existed, because you you're calling it provinces.

SPEAKER_06 37:40

Yeah. But they are not provinces that they are countries. Yeah, they are they are countries well, I mean, in in many ways. Well, I mean, you have, for instance, what be what became known as the Boa republics, for instance, I mean, the Transva and the Orange Free State. I mean, by this is uh 1890s, that's what leads to the Anlo War, actually. I mean, you have uh the colonies of Natal and the Cape, right? So they are not provinces, they become provinces after 1910. Yeah, so you you are right there. But Africans then start organizing themselves politically, using these uh political boundaries in a sense, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Let me let me let me ask a different historical uh question before Professor Nov comes back. You you you me he mentions to there's an agricultural economic system. Yes. In the agricultural economic system that uh prevails up to maybe the first diamond mines, there is very little cohabitation of space amongst Africans of different languages because I'm trying to arrive at the situation, like what are the circumstances that make people say uh no longer Tosa, no longer Zulu, no longer we have to fight as a single entity. What would have been the material condition that would have brought about a conversation like that? Because simply saying they they lost wars, you are still discussing them as a day. Yeah, but on the defeat, on the battlegrounds, Zulu is losing, Zulu Kingdom loses. Yes, it could have organized itself on those terms, yeah. Moving forward in terms of these entities that you are describing, yeah, or they could have organized themselves as a batembu or uh basutu. And yet in 1912, a conversation like that, this is the significance of 1912. Yeah, I'm trying to trace the material conditions that bring about these people to abandon these identities as identities through which we can claim a politics.

SPEAKER_06 40:29

Yeah. I I think it is important to mention, by the way, that these were not closed communities. I mean, there is even evidence that to follow on Professor Love that, for instance, King Kichuayo is communicating with Sikokun, right? Because they are facing a common problem, right? And even way before, I mean, there is evidence that these polities, and I think the best way really is to refer to them as polities, there is interaction. There are moments of military confrontation, but also there are moments of diplomatic engagement. So it's not as if these were the people who did know, did not know one another. But even for these educated Africans who are clustered around these Christian missions, it's not as if these are communities or leaders that do not know one another and that are not communicating with one another. I mean, I mean, one of the interesting examples is that a significant number of them leave South Africa and go and study overseas. Right? In the USA. In the USA, where does and Scotland and everywhere. Where where does uh Charlotte Makege meet the man that she eventually marries? In the United States of America, Dube, I mean, goes with his uh with his wife to the United States of America. I mean, others are going to Scotland. I mean, some of the first uh black medical doctors, I mean, um, I mean, sometimes I think, I mean, the first medical doctor in South Africa, I think he graduates in the Soka, he graduates in 1874. Nembula is a student at the Chicago Medical School in 1870. So this is not as if um I mean their lives are not crossing. Their lives are not crossing. And they are sharing node support to the experiences of colonialism that we are being dispossessed. And and that is the reason why when the idea came that they needed to come together, and I will explain at least from my perspective, then why it becomes possible in 1912, I mean, for them to come together. I mean, in 1898, Walter Khobusan and some of his colleagues in the Cape colony, for instance, they start an organization that is called the South African Native Congress. Right? This is 1898. This is more than a decade before the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1912. But they are already thinking of an entity called South Africa, they call it the South African Native Congress in 1898. So that that tells you the only way they could name an organization that way is because they knew that there were these other people in other places. They might not have formed this organization that they called the South African National Native Congress in 1912, but they knew that they are the organizations that were existing. In 1900, these educated Africans they start an organization and they call it the Natal Native Congress. The guys in the Transvaal are forming the same organizations, the guys in the Orange Free State are doing the same thing. In 1900, before the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910, but there is something that is quite significant that happens just before the formation of the ANC. When white people decide that they are better off with coming together, and this conversation happens especially from 1907, when the Poers regain their independence. I mean, after, because remember, the Poers lose their independence in May 1902 with the Treaty of Ferienge, when the two Poa republics become the colonies of Britain. And that is given back, I mean, to them around 1907 or so. But they decide that actually we do need what then became the Union of South Africa in 1910, and then they have a national convention in Durban in 1909. And when they have that national convention, they exclude Africans and that convention. What do Africans do? They call their own convention. They call it the native convention to discuss that we have been excluded in our land. There is a discussion going on in the wide community that will have a significant bearing to our own future, to our fate as a people. Our fate is being determined somewhere else, and we are being excluded. And so they convene this convention and they call it the Native Convention. And then when they are excluded further, they send a delegation in 1909 to Britain, to plead their case. And when nothing happens and the Union of South Africa is established in 1910, it is quite clear that they need to do something, that they needed to unite as Africans. And that is where Pixie Semi around that time he's returning from being absent from South Africa for almost more than a decade. And he finds this situation where Africans are being excluded. And there are all these movement in a sense to bring about unity amongst Africans.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yes, uh, of chiefs. But already this is a city, and everybody is here.

SPEAKER_05 47:57

That is true.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

People from Mozambique, people from uh Zambia, people from Malawi, people from Zimbabwe, people from Namibia, and all of that. That is true. And there's nobody in that space for those 20, 30 years. Um, hence the chiefs that are gathering, who has a concept of the South Africa and a concept of space that the whites had, the whites are actually very limited. Had it been the blacks who formed South Africa, it would have possibly arrived in Tanzania.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

Possible. Definitely seven Southern Africa. What we know is Southern Africa.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

I mean, if the chaps in the in the room, yeah. Okay, let me put it this way. The chaps. The chaps in the in the house of traditional leaders, let us say it's them, we must say, is South Africa a border? Yeah, uh, it's the country C enzyme. Well, thinking about those characters, and you can help later on. Yes. Where would they have drawn?

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Yeah, I remember by then I did allude to the fact that um their recruitment was from Southern Africa when I spoke about last issues then becoming prominent, you know, even if you think about our first trade union in terms of uh Kadali.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

Yeah, the industrial uh commercial workers. Where is he from?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Malawi from Malawi. You know. So so for me, this is a pan-Africanist idea, uncle. So pan-Africanism does it arrive in South Africa with the formation of the PAC in 1959 by this this extra in itself. It's remember also that we have a southern South African diaspora in southern Africa by now. They originated from northern Zululand. You know, they called Bengoni, you know. Where you know they are led by Zwamendabe. Some of them are led by uh So Xyong and Ngakasa. And when he arrives in Mozambique, actually they are from the Nduandwe group, not from the Zulu group. Actually, it's Enduandwe does for part. It's it's from Northern. So Sosheng, and when he arrives in in Mozambique, they just change the S into a Z, which exists still today. We have the Gaza prophets, you know, then then that that's that's him in Zimbabwe. We have the Ndebela. In Tanzania, Malawi, and Zambia, you have the Ghone. Who leads them? This is one Kendab. Where is he from? They're from northern Zuland, from the fact that Zuite and Sharma, they don't see eye to eye, and these ones decide that they can't stand up to these young ups that we live in, you know, and these diasporas still exist even today, and then from the free state we have baruta who live during the same time, and they are called uh the lozi today, but they exist, they are part of the diaspora which we choose which exist, and and and and and to a large extent, this pan-Africanism therefore makes it easier when you find you set up the house of traditional leaders in South Africa now. No, it it's from there in 1912. Yeah, yeah, because same remember the founder of the ANC, he has traveled so uh, you know, so for him it's an easier thing to establish, and is also linked to the Swazi monarchy development. He works as an advisor to Chris, yes, over TV. So that is why I'm saying, therefore, you know, it makes you think in the present when you think the issue of xenophobia and whatever. This is a movement that in its 1918 constitution, when it describes, defines membership, it talks about Africans from the continent as part of the membership, precisely because the Africans from Southern Africa who work in South Africa because of the economic migration. They should be part of the movement itself. So it's 90%.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Because they have to defend any African from a racist assault. But let's go to first day. Something interesting, um, Bangani. Uh who is in the room and what are the debates?

SPEAKER_06 53:18

Yeah, it was on a Monday. It was a Monday. Um, the weather it was overcast in Drum Fund Day.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

So there were no holidays. I mean, why gala on the 8th of January?

SPEAKER_06 53:30

Remember, remember that was there was no calendar yet.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 53:34

No, there was a calendar. Remember that uh who is who is on the 8th of January? I remember that Pixley wanted the what we know is the ANC today to be founded in 1911. Right. But just uh because there were a lot of debates, because what is coming together in 1912, partly are organizations that were operating. And and that is partly the reason why it was so difficult to form the ANC. That there were these organizations that preceded the formation of the ANC that had their own structures that were political basis, I mean, of some of the people who were there in 1912. That is partly the reason why, I mean, one of the significant leaders at the time, John Tengot Chabavu, who was an established leader, that did not come to the conference, to the founding conference in in 1912. I mean, because as I say, these are the people who were their own political bases that were being brought together. So the the question we're asking is who's there? The people who are there mostly are leaders of the African people. These are the people who are formed at these uh mission societies that who started these political organizations who started the newspapers, those are the people who are there. But they are also chiefs, and it links to what the prof said, I mean, about the second house. Why were chiefs interested in the formation of the ANC, you ask? Because fundamentally one of the biggest issues there was the issue of land disposition. The the Swazis who sponsored the starting of the newspaper linked to the NC Abantubad, and basically gave the ANC SEME money to start the paper. They had lost significant chunks of land, some of which that now is in South Africa all the way to MLO. They've lost this land. I mean, so here is this organization that is being formed to deal fundamentally with two main things. Firstly, there is the issue of political exclusion, right? But also there is the issue of economic exclusion at the heart of which is the issue of land dispossession. So these traditional leaders who attend this conference is because they have an interest in these two big issues. It is not just the educated elite. This is a struggle that affected every African because the issues at stake were quite fundamental and touched every African. And so when SEME issues a clarion call, I mean, in October 1911, he's addressing all Africans, not only in South Africa, because remember, um these what we call the countries now, I mean Zimbabwe, um, Eswatini, Botswana, Lesotho, and the formation of the modern South African state and Zambia.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

And Namibia.

SPEAKER_06 57:09

Yeah, and the Namibia. The idea was that all of those countries today will be part of South Africa. In fact, when Alfred Milner started a commission in 1902, the South African Native Affairs Commission to study what the native condition, he also included Africans in in Rhodesia, in Southern Rhodesia, what we call Zimbabwe today, because in his imagination, in the understanding, was that that would be part of a united South African state. Yeah, the the the the the high commission territories, Botswana and Lesotho, the idea was that they will be part of a future South African state. That is the reason why when Cecil John Rhodes dies in 1902, he gets buried in what is called Zimbabwe today. Because even before he died, he never imagined that what we call Tabele land would be outside of what we know as a modern United South African state as we know it today. So Africans from those territories too are interested in the formation of the room. They are in the room because what is at stake is the very fate of South Africans that is being debated. It is not a small matter. Here is a group of people who have dispossessed us for over a century.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Oh more, yes.

SPEAKER_06 58:48

More than a century. Who have decided to form this political union called the Union of South Africa. And when deciding to do that, they've decided to exclude us. What are we to do?

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Let me let me let me then get in the internal matters now. Um we get that global view. ANC is formed, but the uh interesting characters uh for the leadership question. Yeah, I'm raising this because it's uh an enduring question throughout the existence of the ANC. Who leads the ANC and what directions do they lead it? Yeah, first president. Um before I go back to Professor Andro, you have an interesting story. Yeah, because the characters, the people off the Cape are the most experienced in terms of political of politics. They even have a franchise to some extent. Limited, but uh they have the franchise. Well, the franchise was already a limited franchise in within the white community.

SPEAKER_06 59:58

That's true. Well, I mean, women, for instance, didn't vote.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

White women didn't vote, yes, that is true. But some sometimes as well, certain white people without I think education and property in some instances, yeah, the franchise evolved. But something happens in this room. These people can't agree on who should be the leader of the of the organization as they form it.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:23

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is uh it was an interesting conversation because and how it got resolved was quite interesting. I mean, the the person who eventually got elected as the first president general of the ANC was not even at the conference itself. John Langanivalitube.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

And keep in mind, I want to know why you think Tube was not in the room. No, he's he to take care of that. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:54

John Langaliwalele Tube is is is not in the room, and he's not even the most senior of this emergent political movement, the African nationalist movement that organizes itself in the form of the South African National Native Congress. He is a leader in Natal of the Natal Native Congress. And when Africans decided to form what they call the South African Native Convention, which was in 1909, which was a response to the National Convention, they then elect a veteran, um, Walter Husa, from the Cape, in a sense, a rival to Jabab, to be a leader of the South African Native Convention. It would have been expected that when this organization then that brings together all Africans, that when it was established in 1912, it would have been Khobusan.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

It would have been Khobusan who was president.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:02

Why then Khobusane did not become or even Son Praque, for that matter, these uh experienced uh leaders of the African organizing? Organizing at a national scale. Why did UN Africans come together? Khobusani especially, given that he had been elected as the president of the South African Native Convention in 1909. He was the person who led the delegation of Africans that went to England in 1909. It was not John Bangalibal at Ube. But then when the moment came, it was Dube who was elected president. What was Call of Ban? To answer that question, you need to go back to the political settlement that brought about the Union of South Africa. Because there was this agreement amongst white delegates who attended the national convention that was discussing a Cortessa in a sense that brought about it was a Cortessa.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

But of the British and the Africaners.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:15

Of all of us. And the disagreement was that you had limited franchise in the Cape. There were white politicians who got elected through the votes of those few Africans who were voting in the Cape.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

In the Cape. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:46

So it was in their political interest to keep the franchise. The franchise, the limited franchise. These are people like uh John X. Merriman, like Sawa, like F. S. Malan. These are politicians from the Cape. Uh from the Cape who are saying we need to keep the limited African franchise. White politicians, especially from the Transvaal.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

And the Orange First thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:20

Don't live out Natal.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Oh, and Natal.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:23

And from Natal. And from Natal, who were completely opposed, not only to the enfranchisement of Africans generally, but they were arguing for the removal of the limited Cape franchise in itself. Right. And the compromise that was there was that let us postpone this equation. Let each province keep what it has, it currently has. And so in the Cape province, then they kept the limited franchise of Africans. And that had significant consequences for what happened in 1912. Because suddenly, for these Cape Africans who had the vote, they say, ah, our vote was kept there. It is there in the constitution, and some of them pulled back. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

And so that this, in your view, explains the absence of Jaba.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:26

That partly explains the absence of Jaba, but because it was kept. The gravity, the force of political gravity of black politics shifts from the Cape to Nathan's world. Partly because of the discovery of gold and diamond.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

And the city of Johannes.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:00

The Cape that had been leading for the decades prior to 1910, the Cape African elite suddenly it sees this that our interest of keeping our right to vote has been maintained there. Some of them start pulling back. One of them who doesn't pull back completely is Khubusak. Yes. Because Khubusak sees himself as a national leader. By the way, there's a biograph of Khubusane coming out soon by a historian Brown Maba. It should come out around April and he explains some of this. But Khubusane, Same then starts organizing these meetings when he comes back here in Johanisback. That are planning for the formation of Osukarizek. Khubusane is not attending post meetings. He's not attending those meetings because he lives to accompany the king of Abatimbu went overseas for health reasons. So he's not around. So Semi becomes this central figure. And the guys who are attending the meetings, they are from the Free State, is people like Sol Praki, the guys uh like uh Thomas Mapikel, uh Mocha from the Free State. But really the force of political gravity of black politics has shifted to Johannesback and is led by these uh young people who come from all over, from all over. Same is from Natal, but we have people from all over who are here in Johannesburg. And so when the conference takes place in Bloomfontein, and why Bloomfontein? Because the Free State is at the center even of South Africa today, so it was easier for people from Natal to easily get to the Free State, from people from the Cape to get to the Free State, from people from Transvaal to Cape to the Free State. That is the reason why the conference is held today. But Sayme, because he was concerned that this emerging unity should not fracture over who should become president, he proposes something quite interesting. He says, No, we should elect a committee that should work on who should become the first president general of this organization that we have established here. That committee should nominate who should become the first president of the AS and then three names. This committee brings together three names. One is one of the trusting leaders is Seu, who's quoting is also put there, and it is John Nagandibalade. Now, Senior's relationship with Dube is quite interesting, especially for what happened just a few years after the formation of the ANC because they fell out. But Dube had been instrumental in Semi going to the United States to study, going to high school in Western Massachusetts. And they came from the same Michi, Christian Michael, in a place called Inanda today. So they are congregationalists. I mean, and so Seme is younger than Dube by a decade, but really he is quite rose. I mean, they do not have a blood relationship, but there is a social relationship that they had. And so Seme did have an interest in Dube becoming the first president general of the ANC.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Was he in this committee that was supposed to be? He was the chair of the committee.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:53

He was the chair of the committee. And that is the reason why then when the voting takes place, Dube becomes, he gets elected because he had been a deputy to Hbusan when the South African Native Convention was established in 1909, but he had been leading the Natal Native Congress. I mean, so he is a veteran in in many ways. So it made sense that of the three people who were contesting for the position, that Dube was elected president, but he was absent. And the reason why he was absent was quite interesting because he had fallen from a horse. Dube was he fell from a horse. And for that conference, not uh not uh um not and and by the way, when when the conference started, um a song that was sung there, um it was a song that was composed uh by uh one of the um I'll tell you the name, I mean, and and Spongle Kumalo actually uh what's it what's the name of that song? Uh Keeve to a free car. That was the song that was uh and it is interesting that that song was because largely that was the church song. Yeah, it's a church, it's a church uh sound.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

But written by a black person.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:30

Yes. I mean, um it was it was interesting because all of those present they knew the song, which goes back to that point that this was a group of people who knew one another. They might have been operating politically in this different geographies, but they knew each other. They were intermarring, and that is one of the other interesting things. I mean, it was an elite, an imagined class that was intermarrying, that was aware which was sending its children to universities overseas and and uh let me venture uh to extend now the the concession.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

I will I'll think this first period we can push up to 1940. For very I think 1940, two important events uh conspire for that to really be a new chapter. It's like towards the end of World War II, which had defined, but also the world is getting restructured. Obviously, politics are going to get restructured, but what what would you characterize then? The ANC is formed in 1912 to 1940. For you, what are the key moments, key figures, and um the conditions of our people? Yes, clear. And I mean I this is the between 1912 and 1940, there are literally two world wars.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:11

Yes, can I can I can I talk about the uh the silence is also important. So also if Quinn Matter Law Tibon can belong up there, I think it's a time we have a female president in South Africa.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:32

But that's what we'll talk about, right? So I'm happy you are coming to the party about the presentation.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

So so so so so the 1920s are quite crucial in here. Quite not even the 1920s, uh the politics throughout the world, then we'll talk about the issues about plaque on plaque and selling rivalry, the two semi poly, and then people also talk about semi-cumented.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

Yes, yes, yes. It's quite a rival figure general.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

And and the state of the NC in the 1930s. But what happens now? The organization is intellectual, intentionally intellectual. So which might not be the case. I'll explain why. For example, the constitution itself is the 1918 one, is intentionally pan-Africanist. The 1923 meeting makes it a point that the movement becomes pan-Africanist. It is renamed, it becomes the African National Congress. It's no longer South African 80 National Congress. The meeting also discusses the Bill of Rights.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

It's not 1923.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Not in 1996. There are people who claim that the South African constitution was written by whites because we sold out. No, 1923 discussed the Bill of Rights.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Not just the Bill of Rights.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Yeah, and also in that meeting, in the project I was doing for Prof Munga, I discover that actually it was not the committee, it was the ANC who started to discuss the idea of forming a republic in South Africa. You know, in that meeting. It's a pity we don't have a minute of that, of those. But today the Bill of Rights does exist as a document. I wished that debate, I was lucky, it was covered by Illanga newspaper of 1924, the issue that they were discussing issues that have to do with becoming a republic. But then also the organization itself, as I say, it's intentionally in intellectual, they become aware of the issues that are about progressive internationalism. Why do I say that? Through the Polshevic Republic uh revolution, the Soviet Union is formed, and we are aware that therefore South Africa becomes part of that through the ANC, and the main leading piece in that respect was Josh Kumete and Lakuma. And it ends up going to the Soviet Union. And in fact, Kumete even went to Georgia, and he went there with Stalin, you know, as as as a test. So true true progressive internationalism, then the issues about international solidarity comes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:35

That's the 1920s.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:37

Yes, yes. So but in this intentional formation, you know, with the account you were giving, both of you, about a defeat which was based on war. Yeah, these chaps have fought wars of resistance as soldiers.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

But get convinced that to concentrate in the forefront now, a different kind of a soldier. Yeah. A different kind of a soldier who is an intellectual. So are you uh and here comes the big question then where in the formation, in the beginning of the ANC, in the beginning years, a decade or two, let's say the first 20 years uh or so, you know, where do you place the industrial worker?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:35

No, well, I was going there. Okay. Actually, I was going to move there after, in fact. In fact, I did mention Kadale, so I did mention I was going there anyway. In fact, when we contextualize the defeat, we're not stating the fact that the Anglo-Zulu war for the world, it's not the defeat of the African, it's the defeat of the British. It is still the case even today. It is MPS and remains an important merrier in terms of history being taught in Britain. It's not the defeat of us, it's the defeat by Amazul, where in terms of international politics, then. I mean the British have just defeated the French. They've defeated Napoleon at Waterloo. But they still can't explain even today how they were defeated. Yeah. And we know that even in the PPC, there's an Anglo-Zulu war industry in terms of films, you know, Zulu or whatever, whatever, there's so many even in that space. So, so it's relative. For us, we view the debate in terms of the debate. The British see it differently up until this day.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

But I mean, the institution of self-rules, the sovereignty, yeah, that's what land and all of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:32

That's what I was saying. There certainly shouldn't be a debate then. That's what I'm saying, but in terms of context.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:39

But after 1912, then I'm coming in. Then in terms of the labor history, then it's the formation of the blab trade unions, African trade unions. Because in their minds, the conditions are bad, you know. And at the end of the day, the whites decide then to form themselves into a special group. They don't recognize black workers. To them, black workers are enemy. You know, and then we have the rise of people like Clements Adali. And he forms the industrial commission of Africa. I see you in during that period in the United Know. The implications are that with the formation of that union, the ANC has to come up with a strategy now that the Communist Party exists. And even though when it was called when it was formed, it was originally a white union, but with time black South Africans became interested towards the late 1920s, and they had the NC had no option. But the relationship between the INCU and the ANC depended, you know, on it's like how does Kadali field this morning? But there was a united front between the two. But, you know, it was unpredictable. But the organizations did work together because precisely for the reason that the leadership overlapped. It's not only now with Kosar and the Communist Party and the NC now. The leadership overlapped even from the beginning. From the beginning, that's when now you get the issue about the death of Johannes Nukosi in 1930. You know, that march that was organized in Devon and where he was squeezed, where he was killed, it was both the ICU and ANC members who were part of it. Even though Albert Nzula by then, you know, was one of the leaders that left, he was in the Soviet Union and then buried there, you know, because he passed away during the 1930s. If you look at his life history, you can see that it's influenced by both the national movement and also by the trade union movement. And that is when the comintern then comes into space and come and introduce the idea of a native black republic. And that's when now, even though the membership overlaps between Kumete and SEME, they don't see eye to eye. And comes the election of SEME in 1930, and then I will leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

Firstly, the franchise is taken.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:44

In 1936. In 1936, we'll come to that. But much earlier, you've got the Ren Revolt. Yeah. Um and you also have collision government in 1925. Yes. Um how do these affect the African National Congress's evolution?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:03

I I think there is a contextual issue which touched partly touches on the question you raised uh before. Um the discovery of gold was a significant moment, even for the political organization of Africans. I I think we should not underestimate that because it did something, uh it's a sociological thing actually that makes um the 1940s, 1950s significant and different from say the first uh 30 years or so of the of the ANC. What the discovery of gold in particular did, it forced the white authorities to to force black people to coerce black people to go and work in the mines. I mean, outside of that, I mean the tax, I mean the hard tax, top tax, and all of that. That is a way of forcing of coercing Africans to go and work, especially in the mines of Johannesback. And so there was a a small, yes, a small but significant urban black population, say, by say, especially after the First World War, and that is the reason why it was possible here in Johannesburg to have those strikes, labor strikes. I mean, it's because there are these black people now who are here in Johannesburg from all over the place. And and some of whom, even though they came from where they came from, are increasingly seeing urban centers like Johannesback as home. And that is the reason why the issue of racial segregation and the permanence of Africans in the urban centers become such a big issue in white politics. So much so that in 1923 Ansmarts is forced to introduce the legislation in a sense that formalizes the segregation of races, I mean, in the 1920s. Why does that matter? Is that it in a sense the ANC now has a big issue that even though it had started as an elite organization, but there is the presence of these uh industrial workers that you are talking about that they need to deal with. And what makes the question urgent is the formation of the industrial and commercial workers' union in Cape Town and the talks in Cape Town, but it moves. In Johannesback in the 1920s to organize black workers in the 1920s. And as Prof. said, it is started by Malawian, Clemence Katali, who fully participates, by the way, not only in the ICU, but in the politics of the ANC itself. The ICU by the 1920s, 1925, 1926, 1927, it is the largest mass-based organization.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:29

Larger than the ANC.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:30

Much larger than the ANC. Much larger than the ANC. And it is organizing, and in a sense, it is becoming a more authentic voice that articulates the aspirations of black people. I think we need to keep that. And yet the ANC continues, in a sense, to be an elite organization that does not mobilize people and how it engages with white authorities through deputations. I mean, it sends its needs to meet with this minister, to meet with Prime Minister Erzog. These are our demands, and that is said politely. But then we have this emergent movement, I mean, of uh workers. And the ICU starts organizing also in rural areas, right? In farms and everywhere. And so that is the context, in a sense, uh leading up to the election of Josiah Kumete in 1926 as the president of the ANC. They are step back. So we said before the first president general of the ANC was Dubin. The second president general is Sepharko Mahat. He's elected in 1917 after a major political fallout in the ANC. The fallout actually is over something fundamental in a sense and also peripheral at the same time. It is over the policy position of the ANC towards the policy of racial segregation. There is a suggestion that John Dana Aliba Lele Toube, together with Celope Temer, who was acting pres who was acting secretary general of the ANC because Sol Placid had remained uh overseas, I mean, after the 1914 city, that they have written a letter to the APS, I mean, uh the the the what was it called? The Africa, the anti, the no, it was the African political society in the UK supporting segregation. And so Sem, who had become, in a sense, an opponent of Dubay, says, How can a president general of the African nation, well, I mean of this African National Native Congress support segregation, which was really not true. The argument of people like especially Selo Petema and some of the early African nationalists was if white people insist on segregation, let them be fair about it. They must divide this country down the meek. We Africans are not afraid to govern ourselves. We Africans are not afraid.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:42

If you segregate, you just said that, like it's really a noble idea.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:46

Um no, no, no, no. But but but but remember this, but remember, remember the vision of segregation that white politicians have is that they will take everything and then they will shove Africans to elitic ghetto.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:02

So what is to divide it in the middle?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:05

No, they were saying do it fair. If you want to do it, if you want if you want territorial segregation, right? Because I remember that segregation in practical terms came in two forms. It was territorial segregation and it was institutional segregation. Territorial segregation in the sense that white people should stay in their own area, the most fatile, the most productive, the most convenient areas, and then Africans should be shoved to some yeah, to some unproductive land. That was the first thing. And then institutional segregation was that white people should have their own institution of governance and representation. They must have a parliament in Cape Town, they must vote. Africans should have uh their own advisory bodies and and some.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:03

But what was the Tong's argument? Let's look at this argument.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:06

So the the the argument is if white people insist on segregation, that the races South Africa must be apart, let that be done fairly. That was the argument, especially of somebody like Tem, especially Tem in particular. He says if the idea is that there should be a segregation of races, we Africans are not afraid to govern ourselves. But that principle should be done fairly. It means then Africans should be given sufficient land and sufficient resources to literally govern themselves in a serious way. And given that Africans were about 80% of the population, it means then what is allocated to them must reflect must reflect the demographic reality of the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:01

Okay, so this is what splits. Now this is the first split of the issue.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:06

This is what causes, this is what then causes the issue. And then Same supported by Mangena, Richard Mangena, who was the treasurer. Supported by the guy after whom Kwamaima is uh was uh named to uh tell you now who was the editor of uh the newspaper at the time. I'll come now with the with the name it's me. They they they they say no, but uh that is that is problematic. Uh for for for us is the unity is the is the territorial integrity of South Africa. It leads to a major debate, especially in 1916. 1917. So Dube and Selopetiama are forced to resign, they resigned. Dube left the ANC before his second term ended. I mean, so they resigned uh from the leadership. And so the next so far is then elected to become the second president general of the ANC from 1917 to 1924 when Mahavane becomes the the president.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:25

But at this stage, what happens to Dube? Does he go ah Dube, but he maybe maybe at this stage we will take a small break, but uh and drink water and all of that. But just complete for me the first split, yeah, Dube and Silopetema resign.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:48

Yeah, they are forced and in a way still fall.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:55

No, you're not taking polukan the still fall, there's still going there. And polukwan is not even there. There's no poluk. There's no place. But I mean was it already Petersburg?

SPEAKER_06 1:36:15

It's part of the transition. That is where Petersburg is there. That is where Selopetema. Just outside uh Petersburg.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:28

That's a hook for readers now because they know Polukans. Now we are telling them that that's easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:35

We have to complete and slope Tema. We know Mange N S Reme. Was it with Makatu?

SPEAKER_06 1:36:48

Yes, that was uh Solom Sane that was talking about with Makati. Yeah, Solum Sane who uh after whom the this uh host of my mind was those people will be coming from uh uh injured, I mean from the mind. He was uh he was a manager, the compound manager, so they will come injured. He'll say, My so you then got fault, my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:16

The chaps remain. We will come back to them. Yeah, before we take a break, where does Dube end up together with Tema?

SPEAKER_06 1:37:28

They did not leave the ANC. Remember that Dube is the president general of the ANC. They get forced to resign as leaders, as leaders of the remember that Dube is president general of the ANC, but at the same time he is president of the Natalie.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:43

Of the Natas, yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:45

He is he has his political base, and that is what by the way creates problems. People talk about the uh the ANC of Natal, but actually it was not, it was the ICU of Natalie, AW champion. But we'll we'll we'll get to that. But they they they did not they did not leave the the ALC. Temmer was a leader of the South African National Native Congress in the transfer in the in the in the province itself, right? So the fact that they were nation they left the national leadership of the ANC. They remained as leaders, they remained as provincial leaders, as as leaders, attended its conferences, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:28

Prominent leaders of the clarify the AW champion question. No, that's another thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:34

Yeah, I I I just wanted to because part of this uh is just for people to know a bit about the history of the NC. I wanted just to mention the presidents up until 1940.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:45

We'll then we'll see that. We will we will do that as an opening line in the second champion will come, we'll repeat.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:55

Now, now I think the just the important thing to mention about AWG Champion is that he also comes from Natal and then he works in the mines. When Clement Cadali had started the ICU, the Industrial and Commercial Workers Union, he sees that not only is the political gravity of African or black politics, not only has it moved to the transfer, but also the economic gravity is CNR. So it decides to expand the reach of the ICU that had started in the docks. I mean, it was basically for dog workers. So he opens a branch in Johannesburg. And one of the people he appoints to start organizing these industrial workers here in Johannesburg is a fellow called uh Alison Vincent's uh Champion. George Champion, very charismatic, but uh I suppose populism in a sense you could say you could say it's all the starts with eight or each other. But um, and so Champion joins, he joins in 1924, and Kardani sees the potential of Champion and he sends him to Durban to open a branch. There was Maduna there, uh in in but really um and this is significant because when Champion moved in Durban, he started mobilizing and brought in like mass following to the to the ICU. But there were questions about his management of funds, especially of the ICU. And there was an attempt, he was suspended uh because there were claims that he had misappropriated funds. And so when he was suspended, and because most of the money uh of the ICU came from membership rules, I mean from Natal, especially Teban, where he was the organizer, he could not accept being suspended. And he, together with his followers, started split from the national organization and formed what became the ICU Yasenata.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:28

Thank you. I think that's a good point. There was never Ukombo Senator.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:34

There was never the ANC of Natalia, although Tube. Although Tube. So when the decision is taken in 1923 to change the name of the ANC, so it is then decided that this change must be reflected also in the names of provincial location institutions. So the Natal Native Congress should no longer be called the Natal Native Congress, right? It should be called the Natal African Congress. Now there is a conference in Peter Maris back in 1924. Dubay is being contested by Chief Ministry Stephen Steven. And Duba is defeated at the conference in 1924, and Duba couldn't take the defeat. But in a sense, this Natal native congress belongs to him. Couldn't because remember the political split in Natal was between those who were from the coast and those who were from the inland, Peter Marisbeck, Eating Dave, and those who were from and and Dube and Lutuli later on, they came from Devon, I mean from the coast. And so he refused to uh collapse the Natal Native Congress. So you had Stephen Meany leading the Natal uh African Congress, and you had Dube continuing with the Natal Native Congress as if it had not ended. It was a split that went all the way to 1945. But we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:23

Let's take a small break. We still have the seminal minute. Yes, we still have the seven image.