African Renaissance Podcast - ANC History Series

ANC History: Episode 3: Before 1912. Prof. Sifiso Ndlovu & Prof. Bongani Ngqulunga

• African Renaissance • Season 1 • Episode 3

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0:00 | 1:38:22

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi sits down with Prof. Bongani Ngqulunga and Prof. Sifiso Ndlovu on the history of the ANC.

SPEAKER_02

I wanted I wanted to for us just to maybe uh proof you can do that for us. Yes. So the end of uh why nineteen thirty-seven yes President uh Sam as the founder um loses the conference. Yes. The conference stands and sings and goes together in relief.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But something important happens there, isn't it? And I'm not sure if that's the only chair in history wool tend as the president of the ANC.

SPEAKER_00

He's he's the only one, definitely in the history of the ANC. Yeah. Um because he was first elected as president general of the ANC in 1924, uh, succeeding Sefago Mahat. And I mean, he's the guy we're talking about the Bill of Rights. Uh he is that is Toruga's presidency. The African Bill of Rights.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, that is his presidency of the it is more than that, if you think about it. Change in the main becomes pan-African organization.

SPEAKER_02

The change of uh the S-A-N-N-C to African to ANC. Also, what he does. So he he he he may have produced the new uh constitution.

SPEAKER_04

Constitution again 1918 constitution again.

SPEAKER_00

1819, yeah, because uh the the chairperson of that committee is a Richard uh Simon is a Richardman. But but I think what is interesting, well what is interesting about just think about the 1930s leading up to that change of leadership. I mean, maybe there is just a biographical point, a minor biographical point to note, that Mahabane and and Seme and those before that, in a sense, this is the same generation. Mahabane is born in 1881, and Seme is also born in 1881. They they share more or less the same perspectives. I mean, and so the the contest in 1937 really is not an ideological contest. They do not represent different visions about not only South Africa but also the the fate of uh of Africans. I mean, so this is not as if these are people who represented different visions. In the main, um the disacrament was over Semer's leadership style, more than anything. But what is going on with Africans? I mean, in the in the late 1930s, as we said before, the 1930s were probably the most difficult period or decade for for Africans. I mean, it starts the the decade starts with the Great Depression, right? Uh that leads to that led to massive job losses. Uh I mean, even as we said, I mean that even for those Africans who had jobs uh in at the beginning of the 1930s, um they they lost those jobs because the policy of government was that if there was an unemployed white person, um that unemployed white person could take the position of an employed uh black person. Um the nationalists, the national party under General Herzog is in power. Uh Herozoch had won in 1924, you had been re-elected in 1929, and the election campaign of 1929 amongst white parties was swartified in a sense. So there is a there is an entrenchment of racial segregation. I mean, uh in the 1930s. So Africans are under tremendous pressure. But their own organizations on the political side have weakened. The ICU that it started mobilizing them has collapsed. I mean, by 1929, for all intents and purposes, the Industrial and Commercial Workers Union has collapsed. The ANC is at its weakest moment under the leadership of uh of SEME for some of the reasons that we we have explained. The right to vote for those few Africans, especially from the Cape, who enjoyed that right, they've been removed from the common voters' role. And and and so the conditions of Africans in the 1930s are quite horrible, to say, to say the least. That is the context leading to this election in 1937, uh, where Mahabane challenges Pix Legais Agas M for the presidents of the NC because everyone accepted that the NC was at its weakest moment. In 1935, just to track back a bit, in 1935, when this bill to take away the right to vote uh in the Cape. Yeah, the right to vote in the Cape. Um, and so this organization that was supposed to fight for those Africans in a sense that's his weakest moment. And so there is an initiative to convene uh a convention of all Africans, and it is called the All Africa Convention, right?

SPEAKER_02

To deal with this with these pills, especially the pill that is seeking to take away the right of in a way what occasions the All Africa Convention is precisely the weakness of the age.

SPEAKER_00

It is the weakness of the age.

SPEAKER_02

What did people do in the past in the past because ordinarily had uh died or was it it was it was on its knees because ordinarily it should have been the ANC that should have led this this protest to challenge this government that is taking even the nickel that is there for Africans, but the ANC is at its weakest.

SPEAKER_00

And actually, if you read the newspapers at the time, there is this debate. Okay, the ANC is weak, but it exists, this parliament of Africans. How do we deal with this matter? And how do we deal with this founder of the ANC under whose presidency the ANC is weak in terms? Now, um, and I think there's just an important perhaps, I don't know whether we call it a footnote, that the interesting thing when you look at that period is that we have a reentry of the Cape into national politics in a big way.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe the first entry, really. Well, I mean, they well remember that because the nation, as defined, is a 1910 phenomenon.

SPEAKER_00

A United South African.

SPEAKER_02

In 1910, the question of the franchise for Africans is postponed. Yes. Only to be closed 25 years later, 1935. That that is the which made the Cape citizens of African descent more or less less participant.

SPEAKER_00

More or less. If you look the first five presidents generals of the ANC, that none of them comes from the king. From the king.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yes. And that's is it the case as well with uh secretary generals?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, secretary generals actually quite a number of them who um who were from the Cape. I mean, uh one of whom was uh was Mdolomba, who came from what we call today the the Western Cape. But actually, Anata becomes uh in 1936. Yes, in 1936, Seme draws Kalata because uh Seme is in trouble. He knows that there's challenge to his leadership, so he's trying to get as many people as possible who could support.

SPEAKER_02

But that's also 36. You know, it's uh it's post this era you're describing. Yes, I mean so so the first the first S G uh Uplaki. Yes, is transval.

SPEAKER_00

He comes from Kimberley, yeah. Yeah, he he comes which which is which is uh is Kimberley, is ma is Kimbali, is Kimberly Mafika, but uh but it is uh it's more transval. Yeah, he is there. I mean when Semis organizing these uh these these meetings, then what happens when Plucky goes to with the delegation that went to England in 1914 to protest the the land at the person who then acts who's appointed to act in his position is Silope Silope. Is Tema who's with um with whom yes, where where there is this issue where Tema and Dube are forced to step down back, yeah because there is that disagreement over the history.

SPEAKER_02

After Silope Tema, then after Silope Tema, then we have who was the SG to Kumed? Now well let's start with my with uh with Sefako Mahat.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, because uh that's that is what brings uh T T Mweliscota into the fold. T D Mwelly Scota is interesting because his family comes from Kimberley, right? But over time really he reaches his political consciousness here in the in the transformed. Um it's interesting when he dies in the 1970s, uh house was in Pymville, not too far away from uh from from where we we we are. Gumeda is uh is interesting because so so so so so.

SPEAKER_02

After Sephago is Gumade.

SPEAKER_00

Because remember, then you have um Titi Mwani Scota also being the SG under uh Mahabana because remember that after Sefago Mahato it is Mahaban Mahaban. Because Mahabana was the third president general of the AC, right? And then after Mahabane, then it is Kumete. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is JT Kumete. Then after JT Kumete, it is speaks. Who is SG under JT? Now, that is where then the issue of communist comes in. Yes, yes, because uh becomes an important party to Kumete, Secretary General of the ANC, and Khaile was known as well, I mean he was a known communist in a sense. And so when Pixley comes in, he brings back T.D. Mweli Scotter to be the SG of the ANC, but and they they did not get along, and then he dismisses his uh executive. Remember that the executive was not elected. The president general, it was at his pleasure. And so and to a point. I mean, and so when he had a difficulty with the executive, then he fired them, including the the SG. And so that is where then there was trouble. And then at first, I mean he he gets uh Sol Placky's son, he makes him uh the SG, but it doesn't work. Then he brings in Dolomba for quite a bit, um, because he's trying to build a coalition that will keep him in the position. Um then Tolomba is there for quite a bit, uh, and Tolomba had been the president of the Cape Native Congress, especially in the 19 in the 1920s. And so um Kanata, who's born in 1895, and we'll talk a bit about this generation when we get to Kuma. Um, Kalata is part of that wave, I mean, that emerges to this challenge to the herself bills, I mean, this attempt to take a withdrawal of the franchise.

SPEAKER_04

A withdrawal of the also serious bills also at the same time. Yes, that is true. That's true. That are very challenging today.

SPEAKER_01

Take us through the the the the the uh areas.

SPEAKER_04

Well, they they are more or less, they go back. I think we did discuss them in the first section, which have to do with the land act and Africans moving in urban areas. Which establishes townships. Yeah, yeah. And Jansmart is the prime minister. So it's not only about the election, it's also about these issues.

SPEAKER_00

But it is also because the heads of bills are are interesting. I mean, usually when we talk about land dispossession, we normally focus 1913, we forget 1936.

SPEAKER_04

We forgot 36. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We forget 1936 because let us remember what happens the the the land that is allocated to Africans uh in 1936, uh, it is not the 13% that we usually, I mean in 1913, the in 1913 that we talk about. It was about seven or so. Seven. I mean, with the seven percent. Yeah, seven percent, with the idea that there will be a commission appointed that will then identify areas where those areas, the pieces of land that will be given to Africans to add. That 13% that we usually talk about, that is additional land that is made possible by um the Native Land and Trust Act of 1936. And that is the argument that Jan Smart uses to support the removal of Cape Africans from the common waters all. Because he says, when yes, true, I mean, they are losing their right to vote, but at least they are getting more land. But anyway, just to get back, I mean, I I I did I do think, Prof. That this context, in a sense, I mean, what happens in the decade of the 1930s is critical to understand. Because otherwise it looks like it's a personality context.

SPEAKER_02

But I think we have maintained a nice balance. Yeah, a nice balance because you know why it's important to underscore you will uh tell me your view, but I think at the center, majority of the time, of African politics is the leadership question. Yeah, which must never be underestimated.

SPEAKER_00

That's true.

SPEAKER_02

We're not quite discussing personalities as we are discussing the leadership.

SPEAKER_00

The leadership question that is true.

SPEAKER_02

This uh combination of uh personalities and human agencies that bring about the necessary collective agency to confront material conditions on the historical context. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I I wanted uh then gets elected in 1940.

SPEAKER_04

But I will ask in the three years after of Zachariah Mahama.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, of Zachary.

SPEAKER_00

What did they and and and will explain why then Kuma suddenly becomes a factor?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because you know the the by the time you introduced the All Africa Convention, yes, you were beginning to make this.

SPEAKER_00

I was trying to get I was trying to get uh but uh we'll we'll talk about the political uh and and and the biographical aspects of Kuma, but let's just deal with this thirty SEME and then Mahabad. Now, I mean as as early as 1932, so we are two years into Seme's presidency, the the what usually is called the old guard of the ANC. I mean, they had realized that actually this guy that we brought back, that that we brought that because we thought he would save the ANC is actually not what we thought he would be. That is pixel enough. Because they thought, yeah, he is the guy who had been there at the forefront and we had been the founder of the ANC. The ANC is being taken over by communist through Gumad and let us bring him back. Of course. Yeah, so it turns out that actually it didn't work out, and he expelled them from the ANC. They was removing to call an elective conference, and they are trying to have this. And so eventually in 1937, they succeed to vote him out. And they instead of electing somebody new, they go to a veteran in a side.

SPEAKER_02

They go to the old card or to the old cut. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

They go to the old cut, they go to uh Zacchaeus uh Mahabane, who was a priest, he he was a man of cloud, more of a uniting figure, because that is what the ANC needed at the time. But you'll ask a question, but why go back to the ANC? Because by 1935, 1935, 1936, and perhaps we could say the momentum had shifted towards the All Africa Convention in a sense. It had become the mouthpiece of the aspirations of Africans. But the All Africa Convention, at least to a large number of Africans or African leaders, they had not thought of it as an organization to supplant the ANC. It was a convention. It was uh because in the given the weaknesses of the ANC, it was like, okay, let us come together to deal with this.

SPEAKER_02

Would you, would you because okay, maybe I should have allowed you to finish the thought because what the All Africa Convention does is introduce to the national stage a new set of activists that is true who become critical to the revival of the AIDS. That is the same thing. This is not the time.

SPEAKER_04

This is not the first time we have a convention. He speaks about a convention.

SPEAKER_00

That's what we've spoken about the the 1909, you know. So we also spoke about this. Is actually is making a very important deal, important point. It's the second convention of this. That when Africans are in the face a crisis of sort, they say let us convince you. We call we're calling it the diamond.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So that's not a body language, man. Let us now come to think that the um any similarities to draw, although, like you know, in a without getting into it, is this perhaps what President Becky would have had in mind?

SPEAKER_03

No, we can't.

SPEAKER_00

But so anyway, so what happens then once once um because the All Africa Convention is established to deal with this issue, this attempt by the Herzog government to take away the right to vote for a few number of Cape Africans.

SPEAKER_02

But also the question of the uh the land there's the organization of South African land.

SPEAKER_00

Then there is a land question, and then there's of course the issue of uh segregation that in 1923 Jans had introduced a law, right? This law says there must be an established Of a limited number of what was called native villages in the urban centers, right? And so this is entrenched, this segregation of the races, I mean, is entrenched also. There is a law that amends the 1923 uh legislation and it further entrenches.

SPEAKER_02

But it's interesting what this is at the height as well of what you indicated of an economy on its knees.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

This is this is this is an economy and Africans say let's convene a convention.

SPEAKER_04

Because the other guys they've resolved the matter by trying to address the poor white problem. Yes. Which they did efficient. And Africans are not sleeping, they can observe.

SPEAKER_02

So let's go back to this convention.

SPEAKER_00

Now, the convention, the the the main guy who then images as a leader of this call for a convention. Because these calls, like Semers uh Clarence call in 1911, they are made through the African press. One of the major newspapers we have in Vozaban Sundu that Jabab were established in the 1880s. Yes, you have Dubai's paper, which is still there, Ilan Alasen Atal. But uh we have Umgum Um Tetelu Wabantu that has been studied by um the Chamber of Mars Mindsite. But in 1932, a new newspaper is established and it is edited by Salopetema. It is called the Bantu World. In a sense, it really becomes the main forum.

SPEAKER_02

Bantu Well, which is the soul returned to the now.

SPEAKER_00

So there is this thing that, man, this right to vote is being taken away. And for the first time, Herzog has a majority in Parliament to amend the constitution, the Union Act, that will enable him to take away this right. Because Smartz has formed a coalition government with Herzog that for the first time gives Herzog the power, the votes in parliament to take away this thing. So we do need then as Africans to do something, but the ANC is weak. It is on its knees. So let us have this convention. If you read the newspapers in 1935, especially, there's this call. They also have this convention. And one of the leading people who are calling for this convention is the editor of the Bantu World. I retract Victor Salope. And the other person who's leading are these Africans from the Cape who have this right to vote. One of whom is DDT Jabav, the son of JT JT Jabav. He becomes a leader of these calls, leader of these calls. And so a question is raised: okay, if Chabavu then is a leader of this call, what about the president general of the AHC then? What role should he play? Chabavu writes a letter to the Bantu World, he said, no, no, no, no, I don't mind to be a co-convenor of this convention together with SEME. But where is Semer Editor? He's spending a lot of his time in what we call as a Swatini today. He is aware of these debates, but he's really not a part of them because he's far away from these debates, and most of these debates are happening in Johannesburg in the newspapers in the Cape. But it's interesting who comes to this convention, which is held on the 16th of December at Anne. Because most of these uh things happened on the 16th of December. I mean, in in our history, I don't know whether there is a date that is as significant, at least historically, as the 16th of December, and a place that is as significant in the political history of people as Bloomfantine. In a sense, there's 16th December, Blumfantine, that is our heritage.

SPEAKER_02

So the Caps gather.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, they they gather. And then that is why then the debate gets interesting. There are two pills here that the convention has been called to discuss. But suddenly the discussion focuses on this pill that removes that seeks to remove the franchise. The franchise no, but yes, there's the issue of the franchise, but it can predominate. There is also the issue of the land, the land, and he says there is the overrepresentation of Africans for the Cape. Where do you guys come from?

SPEAKER_04

You because uh we have been on this thing for enormous time, and in terms of the demographic, in terms of the voting power, yeah, they're so small, yes, the total number, yeah, it's it's negligible. So in the convention, in the convention, it too. But in buying, yeah, because we have a land issue to deal with here.

SPEAKER_00

We have a land issue, we've been fighting these things. You guys have been taking a back seat, and suddenly he has a conference. You guys, we are all over the conference.

SPEAKER_02

What was the answer? Jabavu, Jabu is younger, though. I mean, the well, I mean he has that at least as a exclusive excuse.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the the answer is yes, I mean, yes, there is this issue, you might have a point, but the franchise issue is equally critical. And so, and so out of that convention, then there are resolutions uh made, and one of which is that there should be a delegation that should go to Cape Town to meet with the prime minister to discuss this issue of the franchise and to see whether they wouldn't be uh a compromise.

SPEAKER_02

More characters, who is in the house.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let me go.

SPEAKER_02

I'm trying to fish uh or rather give substance to this claim that it is this convention that propels a new breed of activists into the national state. That is true. Babun. That is true. Um I have the names in my head. No, no, no, that is we should do the justice.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, that is true. That that is true. Because now suddenly, and and actually we are raising an important point because there are people in this convention and who are leading a call for the convention who are relatively new to this thing. One of whom is Tuma, Alfred Pittini Tuma. Who Abdurahman was Abdurahman is uh is there because he had been organizing also these conferences, I mean, uh, for Africans and and the so-called uh colors, right? But Uma is one of them. James Morocco is one of them. Alata is one of them, and there is something but kotani, kotane, yes, kotane is uh is one of them. So we have a combination here of the so-called old card, and we have these relatively new, yeah, and and and we do need I do want to ask if Omgov was there. Omgov is I don't know whether Omgov is there. I'll have to check it again. But it's possible that it could have been there because Omgov is born in 1910, right? 1909.

SPEAKER_02

It's not far with age because Kodani is 1905, Omgov is around 1909.

SPEAKER_00

190. But what is interesting is some of the people who are leading this thing, because there is a major difference, a political difference that emerges from that convention, and I'll explain it in a second. Now, um, and perhaps we should say something just briefly about who's this guy and why suddenly it becomes a major figure. And and there are people like uh, for instance, um uh Henry Cell P. M. Sima, who becomes the Secretary General of uh the All Africa Convention after they had elected an executive. Is there people like uh Selo Petema, who is also there, is one of the intellectuals of uh the the ANC, and is one of those people who had been expelled by Pixley Semit from his executive. There are people like uh Mahabane. Remember, Sol Plaque is already dead, right? Khobusane is already dead, the the the the the old card. There's trouble, and perhaps we'll get a moment to talk about splits in the ANC. I mean, there are problems in the Transvaal. In the ANC of the Transvaal, I mean there are some problems there. So, but what what is interesting is that Kuma, and perhaps we should focus on him for a second. And it will be interesting to hear what Prof. So Tuma is born in 1893, in March 1893. Right in a very in the Transcarpo District, in a village called uh Manzana. His father is a lay preacher in the Wesleyan Methodist uh church. Some of the people so he's uh growing up in a family that is influenced by Christianity, by missions, right? And he the family in a population, how many people are there? I mean, around the transai around there, about one of the estimates I've seen there, about 468,000 people, but few educated, about 3% were educated, right? But his family. Yeah, his family, his family is quite educated. It starts his primary education relatively young for the period when he's about seven years old or so. One of the people who teach him Macron is Poswang, who was uh who was a lawyer. And then from there to do his uh what we'll call today his higher primary school, in fact, standard six at the time, he goes to Clarkberry. And it is one of those institutions, I mean, Clubberry, uh it was a mission, but a lot of the African elite goes there, I mean, to study, goes to Clarksbury, and after that he becomes a teacher. But then he wants to go and study overseas. He's not satisfied with being a teacher. And so, and there was a number of Africans who had gone overseas, but especially they had gone to the United Kingdom. There were a few who had gone to the United States. So one of the people he tends to, because he wanted to go overseas is Poswaio, the lawyer. He also goes to Reverend Tancy, who had connections with the American Methodist Episcopal Church, the AME Church. And so Reverend Tancy says, ah no, then go to the United States. But the problem that he had, he had a funding problem. Where am I going to get money to go and study overseas? So he talks to his father, Abraham Krima, who says, okay, why don't you save money from your salary as a teacher? And he does that over a period of two years, and then from there he saves enough money to go overseas. The institution he goes to is a fly, it is your airport. Yeah, when I see. Yeah, it's a ship. I mean, you needed to do that 10,000, 10,000 miles, I mean, in the sea. He goes to an institution.

SPEAKER_04

Who was there, the month's travel?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. 10,000, yeah, about a month. He goes to uh very he goes to Taskige Institute in Alabama. An institution that had been started, that was started by Bukati Washington team. And we need to note that because um it that experience there was one of the major influences in his ideological outlook, in a sense, even as president general of the ANC. Uh he studies agriculture there. He when he's done, he goes to Minnesota, he studies a pit there. But he's now he wants to become a medical doctor. I once said spends a bit of time in uh Milwaukee, in Wisconsin, in Chicago, goes back to Minnesota, he goes to Edinburgh. So from 1913 to 1927, Puma is away.

SPEAKER_04

He's away. Actually, he he has a doctor of anything. What we call a Northwestern University. Yes. It's not a street. And he went to Edinburgh, yeah, and also Hunger also. Yes, remember he wanted to specialize also as a gynecologist and in optrestics, you know. So he's well learned, I think. You know, and he is a doctor of medicine.

SPEAKER_02

If you had this collection of degrees and you come back home, you were a quick pick for political activism.

SPEAKER_04

In fact, what happened in 1929 and 1930, the ANC standard him out. He said no. It's only then when the health bills were biting in 1935. That's when he so he had been proposed.

SPEAKER_00

He was offered positions. He said no. Katani, he he arrived in December 1927. He the ANC offers a position to be assistant treasure. He says, No, the the faction of the ICU, the small part that has left, they say come to the ICU. He says no, his main focus is to build a medical doctor.

SPEAKER_04

No, he works in Alexandra, yeah, of all the places. So he might have been accused of so many, but he works as a medical officer, Alex.

SPEAKER_00

You know, so it's only when during the time now the heads of bills that he comes to brings him into this, and then he becomes the vice president of the African Convention. Basically, deputing the All Africa. The All Africa Convention. Deputizing DDT, Professor DDT, Above. And in a sense, in many ways, you could say he becomes the leading intellectual of uh of this. That then we have uh, as we said, the person who becomes the treasurer of the All Africa Convention is James Morocco. And it is important to make this post because sometimes when Morocco is criticized, it is as if he was just the footage. No, he he did not. Yeah, he did not fall from the sky. I mean, this is the guy who had been involved, and the SG on the All Africa Convention is Henry San Pimcima, who had been a youngest dedicated the founding conference on the ANC in 1912. He was a secretary for Pixley.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So, but I think the main point about all of this biographical detailed work, even, is that what brings Truma into political prominence is this fight uh against the heroes of bills that are trying to take away the right to vote. That did take away the vote. That did take away the right to vote.

SPEAKER_02

I want I want uh before we we sort of begin how then he presided over the ANC, because his is um a significant era to the reshaping of the ANC, quite frankly, as we know it today, it has been in that image since Uma. In a way, this is Kuma's age.

SPEAKER_04

If if you think about the youth, the women, yes, and the labor and the alliance, yes, with the Tadopact with yes, but I want to and the doctor's pact, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I want to uh uh yes, yes, I want to come back to that, but can you just locate because I do think it's an opportune moment to quickly track Kotan because Kotani gets elected incidentally himself as the general secretary of the SAC of the SACP, the CPSA, in 1939.

SPEAKER_00

But his trajectory is slightly different, it's it's of course.

SPEAKER_04

I'm saying that because the 1940s because the overlapping membership is also it makes it makes it difficult, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But I mean I'm saying as a figure, but he rises through trigonomism. That is the reason why I was saying, and it is uh an important distinction in a sense, because the the leadership of the ANC is drawn, as we said right from the from the beginning, from the educated class of Africans, who um in a sense who rose orose from these missions. Literally, Mahaban, Tube Sefako Machato, Mahava and Akumade, Pixly Sem, um now uh we we come to Kuma, all of them. They these are people who come who are educated Africans, they come from these mission communities. They have uh they are articulate and they are talking the language of rights, the language of owning property, these and they are sometimes dismissed as the petty bourgeois.

SPEAKER_04

Not necessarily, you know. If we those of this generation, we use so many names to call them. If you think about it, no. In terms of the fact that they are the ones who inculcate uh pan-Africanism today, because the 1918 constitution talk about men and women, the aboriginal race of Africa, you know, not South Africa, not the Union, the African continent. And what they do, the slogan of the movement is Ma'eboy Africa. It's not Ma'aibuye Union of South Africa. The national anthem is well, it's Africa, which they sing when when they get rid of. So it's not Nkosi Segalele Union of South Africa. So for me, in terms of political culture, pan-Africanism, including changing the name, they are the ones. You know.

SPEAKER_02

So for me to reduce them to PT Pujazi, it's even if they're the reduction, but I'm just saying they would be because they they were very concerned about even their property.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's a sweet word.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, maybe. Although, although although socialists, when they do call you that, it's opting to dismiss you.

SPEAKER_04

In fact, what I'm trying to say, in terms of political culture, you know, and heritage, no one speaks about the fact that actually pan-Africanism is already, you know, introduced by them in various ways, which we take for granted. But the petit bourgeoisie, it's it's prominent in terms of the historiograph. That's what you get. But this side, you don't you don't believe it.

SPEAKER_02

Agreed. Yeah, there's a whole elevation of pan-Africanism. Even the bill of rights ideology that was not usual, that had to be leading to a hegemony of constitutional.

SPEAKER_04

Even the 1923 Bill of Right. You know. So for me, that's why I'm saying you get the petit bourgeoisie element when you when you read our historic being the one that, you know, they've been dismissed. That is what I think Galata, because he's part of this group, will have to be, you know, will have to pay some some homage to them in that range. Not as petit bourgeoisies.

SPEAKER_02

It's not a it's not an insult according to you, but I do my initi my question because of uh time as well here is Gotani.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

You know, my intuition. Is the SACP up until the Kotanis had dismissed the initial blacks. The La Gama, Lakuma, Gama, they had been marginalized. Abu Kotani, there's sort of a second, so to speak, wave. Second wave of Tabomo Fuzanya. And Tabomo Fuzanyali. Yes, yes. Who is also in the All Africa Convention. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But but but to be fair, I mean to the communist part of South Africa in a sense, you could say it was one of the first organizations that allowed for the membership of people without consideration to race. And that is the reason why, even in the 1920s, there are quite a number of Africans who are prominent members of the party itself. And this links up to your question about Kotane because what is different about Kotane to all the personalities that we have been discussing here, the leaders, I mean, who come through these mission communities, go through schools, universities, and then into the leadership positions that Kotane actually goes through trade unionism. His rise to leadership is through trade unionism. I mean, those people who worked in bakeries. That is what takes him into the Communist Party and he becomes a leading ideologue.

SPEAKER_04

Including Uncle JP. Yes. Remember, Uncle JP is more of an African because of his background.

SPEAKER_00

So, in a sense, what is interesting about Kotane, because the party, I mean, even though there have been Africans who were there, but it is largely dominated by white leaders, in a sense. And that is the reason why Kotane's letter in 1934 becomes so significant. Because he says the communism that we are fighting for has to be grounded in the conditions as they exist, not only in South Africa, but also in the African continent. That means even the society that we imagine and how we organize for the realization of that society has to take that into consideration. And sometimes the dichotomy, in a sense, between African nationalism and communism should not be as dark as it is made out to be.

SPEAKER_02

I think I want to push us now to Kuma's era. Let me let's start with you, prof. Your framing of 1940 to 19, is it for denying?

SPEAKER_00

It's 1949.

SPEAKER_02

For denial. I want to start with Babunju. Firstly, what is this decade for you? For him. In material conditions that the ANC of UMA rises.

SPEAKER_04

It's the war, it's the war economy, you know. And also, remember. World War II. Yeah, World War II. And also, which I've been doing deliberately when I speak about internationalism. Actually, I'm speaking about geopolitics. It's not only now when you start thinking you're calling for South Africans not to be part of the G20, and South Africans have to pay to ban the military war games between Iran, South Africa, and China. It's not the first time we are involved in this thing. Kuma has to deal with an important issue in terms of world politics and geopolitics. He has to deal with Southwest Africa, Namib, the Namibia question. Because remember, during this time, this is the death of the League of Nations. And when the League of Nations dies, we know SMART is a prime mover. Therefore, in terms of geopolitics, we are prominent through SMART. And when the UN is formed, it becomes automatic that SMART thinks that we're going to colonize Southwest Africa. If the League of Nations dies, therefore, Southwest Africa now becomes another problem. Yes, yes. But now Puma has to stand up and be counted. You know, the League of Nations stroke UN because Silepo Tema, during after the First World War, was a leading prime figure in terms of fighting for the Southwest Africa to be handed over through the League of Nations mandate as a province of South Africa. Then Kumar takes over from Silopatem. He does so. He fights, he writes memoranda that goes to the United Nations discussing this issue. And then remember also in terms of the Second World War, it's the African claims document. And the African claims document in and also he revisits the issue about the Bill of Rights, you know, which is now in 1943, the final document. He goes back to that issue. And and it's in it, we do know that it's internationalist, you know. So that's why I'm saying that the leadership then had its eyes and focus glued on geopolitical and geostrategic and geo-economic matters. Because comes the Second World War, it's it's it's the economy, it's a war economy. South Africa contributes. It has to develop industrial centers. Port Elizabeth, the Harvard develops because we are dealing with producing war machinery, helping our rulers, the British government. So so the war could then it makes it a point, therefore, that Kuma in the NC take a decision that we, regardless of the issues, we were fighting lots of pills, segregation, et cetera, et cetera. But we're supporting South Africa in this. So so so so so so so so to a large extent, what is happening now? It's nothing new. So Uma and his colleagues have to deal with these issues. And and and and we know that African things became an important document for us and policy.

SPEAKER_02

But you you want to step in because something else happens to the ANC with MUMA. And I think it becomes it evolves from a parliament to a party.

SPEAKER_04

Let's get changes that can I correct you? Yeah, you said it people's parliament.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, people. I think I'm I'm I'm I'm making a provocation that I think the era of the ANC that is beginning under Kuma, the ANC appreciates that it has to become a political party and not like a liberation political movement. It has to be, I think, because of the forms uh of organizational structure that it takes. One, what happens to the chiefs and why? Why does this generation, I mean, in the room are these characters of the All Africa Convention in the May, uh, including um the other character that we should have mentioned is uh Matthews ZK and all of that. But I'm saying firstly tell us about the constitutional changes the ANC adopted for the three constitution which which changes it as it had been conceptualized and then uh re-adjusted in 1918. Uh but for the three changes. Uh Kuma says it has to become something else, just the thinking. But secondly, uh which prof had begun to do there's a very interesting explosion of the urban population, yeah. But also what majority of the reports, government official uh reports, I don't know whether they are called statistics or not, those things, they they begin to worry about the idle youth. They begin to worry about the concept of the Tsotzi emerges, these youth African youth that are rejecting to even look for a job who want to live out of pickpocketing and all those things. The the the the urban center, specifically, you know, your Alex, yeah, uh your Sophia Town, your Everton, and all those things. In a way, there's also that phenomena, the basis of which I think comes this big concern of for the first time of a youth in the African community. But also there are other strikes, uh, transport strikes. These are the errors of the past. Secondly, there's um mine worker strike, and then uh, but thirdly, as well, it is the era uh of of of strong yes, of the strong land occupation struggles, yeah. Uh just juxtaposed for us.

SPEAKER_04

In fact, so in fact, to add on that for the first time, the strategies of blocking African women to come into the Airbnb cities for the coming and big now.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, that's another big population, and that's that grows is uh uh and big, big settlement population of African women. Yes, that's why they say what does that do to the ANC?

SPEAKER_00

Well, first of all, just uh the the election of Duma, and by the way, it was a close contest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was a close contest.

SPEAKER_00

It was close, it was decided by one vote was 22. Very close.

SPEAKER_02

Who was the contest then?

SPEAKER_00

It was Mahabane and Guma. It was and and there's that element why did Mahabane contest? Well, you wanted to to well Mahabane was um and and perhaps your question leads us to what did the election of Kuma represent? Because it was an end of an era. The people who had run the ANC from 1940 had to make way that then there at the founding of the ANC in 1912.

SPEAKER_02

So this is what uh this is about 30 years, this is uh 30. 28, 22 years.

SPEAKER_00

The the people who had run from the first president general to the fifth.

SPEAKER_02

To Mahaban.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, Mahaban. They come from one generation. They come from one generation. So there is a generation. Uma's election as president general of the ANC was not just a change of leadership, it was a generational change. That is an important point to make, because we we have in generational terms, we have to think these people who were taking the ANC, in ANC leadership generational terms, what were they? And this is important because just a few years later, then the Congress Youth League gets formed. Who was forming the Congress Youth League and why? And these are some of the questions we'll have to answer. Now, we have been mentioning names Galata, Puma, ZK Matthews, all of these people who become prominent, I can say PP Klingywe, Stin Klingiwe, all of these people who lead to the ANC, former part, Mafutanyani. These are people, in a sense, I call them the bridge. They bridge between the bridge between the founding generation and the Congress Youth League generation. These are people who were already born when the ANC was formed, but who were not there at its formation because they were too young. Right? So we said Tuma was born in 1893, right? Uh, I mean, if you take the Secretary General for the when he was president general, for instance, uh James Kalaka is born in 1895. ZK Matthews is born in 1901. Um is also born, I think it is in 1895. So, right? So these are people who are 10, a decade or two.

SPEAKER_02

So Abo Abo, these words of the 1910s would have been generation Gen Z. The turn of the century.

SPEAKER_00

So it is, and and by the way, I mean you could say, ah, you know, it is an it is an irrelevant biographical detail, but it has some very interesting political implications, in a sense. Because their politics threatles these two generations that they are preaching, in a sense. There is a part of Kuma's ideological outlook that is quite similar to the man he defeated Mahavan or even Pixlison, right? In in many ways, what Kuma is fighting for is the political inclusion of Africans, but it is not a political rapture in a sense. Even the methods that he proposes, it is not political confrontation, which is what gets him into problems with the generation that establishes the Congress youth leak. But since this is a discussion about the ANC, how does the ANC that Puma inherits in 1940 look like? This is uh because even though Mahabane had been there for three years, but in many ways it is still a very weak ANC, right? It is still an ANC that is controlled by what you could call provincial big men. Because the trouble with the ANC is that inasmuch as we say it was founded in 1912, but in many ways it was an incorporation of structures that preceded it.

SPEAKER_02

Because it was a parliament.

SPEAKER_00

It was a parliament, and these structures had their own leaders who had been leading them for a long time who didn't want to let go. Right? Um and it was also the second point to mention is that it was also in many ways a divided ANC. I think the results of the voting itself were Kuma 1 by one vote, it tells you, yeah, it tells you that it was a divided organization, but also even in provinces, it was quite divided. Sefakomachatu here in the Transvaal was fighting with Petrus Motseka for a long time. The ANC in the Transvaal was divided for a decade leading up to the election.

SPEAKER_04

Even in the 1920s.

SPEAKER_00

Even in the 1920s, it was in Natal there is a big fight between Dube and Champion. And and uh Dube is fighting, he's he has a meeting.

SPEAKER_02

In fact, there it took an organizational, the function did not demobilize.

SPEAKER_00

It did not demobilize. So so Tukuma also inherits an organization that just doesn't have money. Right? So we do need to take that into consideration because that's what makes Tluma such a great leader. What is it that he he did when we got in added that made the ANC, in a sense, that saved the ANC. Had Tluma been a weak leader, I'm absolutely convinced that the ANC would have died in the 1940s.

SPEAKER_04

Because the membership rises. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But now what makes the rise, which is uh another contextual point I want to mention. So this is the the institutional context I was explaining now. How does the ANC look like? The ANC that inherits.

SPEAKER_05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But there's something uh bigger that is going on in South Africa, that South Africa is participating in a war. And because South Africa is participating in a war, so there has to be production for the war, and so it brings a lot of black people and the war back into the urban areas. The war economy. Yeah, the war economy, but also because uh Smartz, who's prime minister at the time, is following a policy that Africans must not fight in the war. They must not carry arms. So a lot of young white men have to be conscripted to go and fight in the war and then need Africans uh to come into API centers. There suddenly you have this huge urban, African Apen population in places like Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, and everywhere. It's happened out everywhere else. Which means because all of these things that sometimes we talk about that take place in the 1940s, without the presence of that significant Apen population would have been would have been difficult to happen. So Puma, um, but there is an ideological split, and it's interesting how Tuma finesse it. Because the old card of the ANC. So when the vote, the cave franchise, is taken away in 1936, there is a new structure that the government creates, right? It uh calls it the Native Representative Council. It says you Africans are not going to be represented in parliament, but we are creating a body for you. It's called the Native Representative Council. This body would advise government on your aspirations on native affairs. And in order to serve in this body, you must be elected by your people. Suddenly, these people who have been opposing the removal of the cave franchise, suddenly they participate in this structure. The native representative uh council. They call themselves members of the of the representative council MRC. And after their names, it will be R V Salopatema, MRC. In the same way it would have been top Tambuisend of MP.

SPEAKER_02

I never, by the way, for the record, I've never written my name.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the important thing is that a significant number of the old guard, when the On Africa Convention and what it was trying to do is defeated, Harozoch implements this thing, suddenly they participate quite enthusiastically in the Native Representative Council. That is the ANC that Tuma inherits. It's the ANC, there are ideological differences that are there. It's still a weak ANC. There are splits in provincial ANCs, but in many ways financially it's financially it is in trouble. But these provincial ANCs are still controlled by provincial big men. And it is important to mention this because it gives context to this constitution of 1943. Because what does it do? What is Tuma trying to do with the constitution of 1943? One of the things he's trying to do is to centralize power from the province.

SPEAKER_04

From the provinces.

SPEAKER_00

So the ANC, in a sense, what the ANC has become now, in a way where suddenly provincial leaders have become these big barrels, is a return to the ANC before 1943, what Truma was trying to defeat in many ways. Because he was quite, because that was the question that had not been resolved since 1912. The power of the central ANC versus the power of the provincial ANCs. What Toma does through the 1943 constitution is that he centralizes he centralizes power, right? He then organizes the finances of the ANC. And he creates a national office of the ANC, and he says the headquarters of the ANC henceforth are going to be in Johannesburg. Which is the financial credit by that time. And then he gives also women, right? He gives them full membership of the ANC.

SPEAKER_02

As full time with the right to be voted for.

SPEAKER_00

With the right to be voted for, and we should give credit here to his American wife. Because that constitution establishes the ANC Women's League before the ANC uh youth league. Right? So, in a sense, Tuma modernizes the ANC through that constitution. But Tuma is a preacher. I think we need to get back to this point. That if you think about the ANC in its 114-year-old history and think about how to locate Tuma. Those three presidents of the ANC, they are born in the 1890s. They are not there at the founding of the ANC. They were born. But they are already born. Right?

SPEAKER_02

So Umar No, before, I know you are driving to the lead.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

The circumstances of 43 as well is the response to the Atlantic Charter.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Now and I mean this this is important. Which gives rise to Africa's claims document, in which is the a sort of improvement, update of the African Bill of Rights. It's important to me, uh, and I'll tell you why, gentlemen, because we keep getting back at this point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

People think the history of South Africa's constitution, you know, maybe started uh in at Cortesa. Yeah. But as we will see later in the next episode, there's this moment all the time where an ANC president says, let's write a constitution. Principles of the Constitution, Oliver Tan, Uma, African Claims document in the 1923 Bill of Rights under Mahabani.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Where the origins, as it were, of what we are looking at in 1996 is something that has been going on for a long time. For a very long time, which are ideas of Africans, Africans thinking about not, I mean, what they are responding to in 43 is the Atlantic Charter. It's an international situation, it's a it's a global ballot, it is a global conversation like we are having today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, prof was saying the League of Nations dies. So it's a conversation, what must come after? Yes. And when when the rounding up of World War II happens, the Americans and the British are beginning to have a conversation about what must happen after. And the Africans react to what world. So we're back there because uh Trump's obsession with the Western Hemisphere is trying to restart the world on different terms. That's true. And uh we may be looking at something of a conversation. What happens after the United Nations? What comes after?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And here are these chaps, globalists in their thing. They think of their struggle as a struggle that is taking place on the world stage, too. And and so 1943, very important.

SPEAKER_00

1943, and and remember that Africans, I mean, even though the smart government even though the smart government does not want Africans to fight in the war, making the same argument that Smart made as Minister of Defense as the first minister of defense when the when World War I broke in 1914, that this is a white man's war. So when the war breaks out in 1939, smart still insists that Africans should not fight. But the the response of Africans themselves is quite interesting because they say what is at stake also affects us. We who are dark. Right? Because our freedoms, if this man Hika wins, would be some of his major victims. So we do want to fight in this war, and we want to be armed, and we are prepared to shed our blood for the cause of freedom. Umar, even when Kruma becomes president, I mean he writes several letters to Smartz, in a sense saying we are prepared to participate in this war, but we want to participate on equal basis. When Churchill meets with the rules of it. Yes, and then they set out these principles of a post-World War order. Order, right? This is the charter promises equality and freedom for all.

SPEAKER_04

All nations, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and one of the people who are supporting this Atlantic Charter is Yans Smart. Then Umar says, aha. He then establishes a committee that should have the responses of Africans to the to the charter.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. I I have an interest in the names of the Africa's claims documents. African claims committee. I want you to consider this as you go to the initial point you were making about the bridge uh um generation. So the names uh which are outlined as soon as I find it. Uh firstly, Uma says most educated Africans. That's the the basis of the committee. Yes. The most educated Africans.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so I'll just go through a few. Yeah. He is the leader of the committee. And uh ZK is literally the convene, uh, so to speak. Um list of members of the committee. RG Baloe, who was the TG of the NC. Yes. And then Dr. R. T. Bogwe. Yes, uh, a medical practitioner.

SPEAKER_00

Medical practitioner, but also a prominent leader of the NC of a TMS at the end.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and then James Alata, who is a priest and the SG of the NC. And then um uh Mr. R. H. Kotoi, uh, who is in the ANC leadership, uh, Mr. L. Kabani, yes, uh teacher in the first state as well, but also African Teachers Association leader, president of African Teachers Association, Moses Kotani, yes, who at the time is the secretary of the South African Communist Party and a member of the ANC, yes, and then Mr. S. Mek Lepodisa, trade trader organizer, but is in the ANC, and then Mahabani, yes, that these bridge gap people, yes, and then uh who is a minister and a chaplain of the ANC of the ANC, yes, trade unionist Makabeni, yes, and then Mapikela, TM Makela, Thomas Mapikela, uh, who is uh also an ANC member, ZK Matthews, and then C Mbata, yes, govern Mbek.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Now I find this name odd to be in this list. He was possibly the youngest, yeah. Mwerani, M Mwerani, yes, M T Muerani.

SPEAKER_00

Who's that who's related to governor?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, who is related to government?

SPEAKER_00

T E T Mufuzaniani, yeah, Tabu Mufuzaniani. Tabu Mufuzaniani after whom one president is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, this is the guy President Beggy's name after his best friends with uh with uh well, not best friends.

SPEAKER_00

Umgov looks really yes, uh uh maybe the more by the way TMW who's uh who's a brother to to the the mother, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Then you've got Dr. S. M. Mulema, yes, Dr. J. S.

SPEAKER_00

S. M. Mulema is is interesting because he's one of the elements of doctors.

SPEAKER_02

I don't want us to get out. I think just for a sense of mentioning. Then you've got uh Reverend Mbito, yeah, Reverend Abnam Timkulu, yes, from Natam, Mr. Don M Timkulu, Mr. Liam Timkulu, Mr. JM N Sapo, yes, of the Wilberforce Institute, yes, uh an executive member of the ANC, Mr. Selbing Mobo, yes, the principal M of Otland.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, then not of sorry, principal of uh of uh the Adams College, sorry.

SPEAKER_02

Then the most important name Pixley Isagagas is here, and then uh Sitluchhelo, yes, Dr. Ach R. Situhelo, yeah, uh Mr. R V Silepetema Silopetema, yes, and then Mr. B B Kwiniwe, yes, and then Dr. Kuma, who is the 28th member. Yes, and Kuma, obviously, these people uh were writing all of this reporting to him, but he participated uh in the in the Africa's claims initiative. Um there is an opening sentence in the following pages, the reader will find what has been termed Bill of Rights and the Atlantic Charter from Africa's point of view. Just with the hand of view. That's the name of the document. And it's I mean, there's these characters are mentioned, Roosevelt uh as well as um uh uh uh uh Churchill, yes, uh, but also Nazism and uh these Africans say they're going to respond to this. Uh, president general of the ANC is the convener. He he actually writes the preface, yes, giving a historical context to the Atlantic Charter, and and and those characters include very, very, very, very young people. So in 1943, Omgov would have been 31, if I'm not mistaken. Because he was born in 1909. Yes. So I want you to come in now because you're going to the league 1909, uh 19 uh43, or he would have been 34.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, he would have been 34 years. I don't know if there is a contemporary.

SPEAKER_00

No, but what is interesting though, um it's interesting because actually before 1940. Sisulu is not here.

SPEAKER_02

No. I just that's my point.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I mean the chaps that we are going to know as the youth league, yes, as the Rivonia trilists, uh Stevings.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And all of that. The next time we're going to hear the people who, in a way, I mean, from Sisuli, Sasuli's 1900s.

SPEAKER_04

No top will talk about.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, by the time they talk about being youth, yes, umgov.

SPEAKER_03

No, it might, it might, it might not, it might not be the case.

SPEAKER_02

Just as a side note, I mean, I'm not thinking.

SPEAKER_04

No, it might it might be it might not be the case, but you can explain it to you.

SPEAKER_00

I I wanted just to say that uh I mean it's quite interesting actually that in the conference uh where Sem is defeated in 1937, there's a very young person who's present there. His name is A Pimda. So there's a young person who's already coming back. AP is born in 1916.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's he's actually younger than Omgov. But wasn't Om Gov in that conference?

SPEAKER_00

The the 1937, at least in the list that I've seen, he was not. But what makes him and and and actually I can understand why he's part of the African Claims Committee. I can understand. Remember that he's editor of Inkunlaya Baba. He has become by 1943 a well-known.

SPEAKER_04

He works with children.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a well-known figure. Definitely as the as the editor of what really became it became a very influential newspaper. It became even more influential because it became the mouthpiece of the Congress Youth League when it was formed. But we are not there yet.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, okay, so we've got that. I want us to to start with the Congress Youth League in the next episode. Just complete for me the grounds, maybe you, Babuji.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The grounds for why part of what gets removed in the structure as new structures are introduced is the house of chiefs. What arguments uh did Tumame or he wanted so much centralization that he didn't want the chiefs. What was the argument?

SPEAKER_04

The argument is that I mean if I remember my interview with the young Matthews, Joe Matthews, because he was a youth, then his argument was that most people make a mistake and argue that the youth came into being in the late 1940s. He says that it already had provincial branches in the early 1940s. So to a large extent, they don't have to become members of the African claims. It's just that the issue is they just didn't pitch up in 1944 and then we recognize them. He says that Kuma has been working on it. So it's the trade union movement. Remember? I'm coming back to the next one. I want just to start the conversation in the next episode. Yeah, no, no, I'm not chiefs. I'm telling I'm closing the argument. Remember then to think what about the non-European trade union movement and also forming the trade union which is led by Uncle JB in 1946. So he had women, he had trade unions, he had the youth. So who's going to lose in terms of this equation? The chiefs are the losers. For him to accommodate these three. Because in his mind, he thinks that he thinks that the chiefs may not be supportive in terms of making it a point that women get space, you know, within what he's thinking about. They will think that the youth no. They'll also think that the trade, you know, new movement might not. So it was a choice he took as the leader of the movement.

SPEAKER_02

So it's not necessarily but I I remember reading that the structure itself had become almost non-existent for many, many decades.

SPEAKER_00

I wanted just to address.

SPEAKER_02

Well, many years, I I suppose. But um I don't know what did you find. You think in his modernization project, he knew for sure the the thing that represents the old God the most is the house of it's it's it's it's in his modernization.

SPEAKER_04

Traditionalization it's is taking, you know, is it's taking responsibilities because the other sectors do matter, you know. The chiefs had their time, you know, in in 1912. So he has to bring in these three, you know, so he has to take a decision.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have I I want you to add perhaps a bit of detail here. Um remember that the leader of the ANC who had brought chiefs into the fold, the center of the ANC was Pixley. Yes, right. And in fact, when Truma gets elected in 1940 and he constitutes his committee, he includes Senai in the committee. Yes. And he makes him the secretary of chiefs. He does not move against Chiefs immediately, right? Uh but let us let us track it back. What what attracted Chiefs to the ANC? What attracted Chiefs to the ANC? Um in the main, it was the issue of land. That is the reason why there was a significant representation of Chiefs in the founding conference in 1912. And most of the funding in the early period for the ANC came from Chiefs, right? Even when the ANC was fundraising for the delegation that it was sending to the United Kingdom in 1914, most of the funding came from chiefs. We mentioned earlier on that even the Abantu Batu newspaper that was started in 1912, the funding had come from the Swazi royal family. When that delegation of 1914 failed in a sense, uh there was a bit the chiefs started to uh humble and none, like say actually this thing we are putting money not working, so much so that when the ANC wanted to send the delegation after the end of the First World War in 1999, not so many chiefs contributed money for that decision. So I think it is one contextual point we need to keep in mind that the Chiefs themselves lost. They were losing interest. But when Semer gets elected in 1930, he tries to bring them to bring themselves. Right. He tries to bring them back. He has the Swazi royal house now, uh King Soposa, who's supporting him in the main. He tries to bring them back, but it really does not, it did not work. Their participation was not as enthusiastic as it had been towards the founding of the ANC and uh the deputation that went to England. But there were leaders of the ANC, even when Tomavon in 1940, who were still interested in Chiefs. I mean, in 1920, this is about 1926 or so, Mahabane writes an open letter to Chiefs when he was president general. I mean, so the so-called ANC old guard was still interested in the Chiefs. There's something that happens in the um in the 1940s, in a sense, we're talking about Umar. That there was uh a shift, and I've been using this term quite a lot. That the while the LC had been anchored in these clusters of educated people who were in the missions, they were known in Hunter, they were educated people who were there. Eating Dale, I'm just using Natan. I mean, you would go to Love Tale and all of these places, King Williamstown and all and all of those things. So there were these clusters. Petersburg. Peterspeters, yeah, Peter's Berg, in Petersburg, they are all. By 1940s, as more people move into cities so in urban areas, the ANC changes in a more youth and women. Yeah, the gravity of the ANC also moves to these centers. That is the ANC that Kuma starts leading. He then makes Johannesbeg the headquarters. So he's no longer leading a rural pace in a sense, I mean, that is anchored on elites. We have more women coming in, even youth and youth are coming.

SPEAKER_04

Ababa Malay, so he has to find a way of making them.

SPEAKER_00

Now, so the chiefs as a political force of sort, I mean, they are losing influence. And in fact, when he when he changes the constitution, and remember the term of an ANC president was three years. It's interesting that he does this after he gets re-elected in 1943. That is when people like Samei gets rid of them. He's taking now charge of the ANC and he's creating Lin Danger. And the younger and the younger people. And so the ANC is becoming largely an urban political movement. It's no longer an elite movement that is anchored in these clusters of educated elites. Mostly one decentralizing communities.

SPEAKER_04

It does away with provinces.

SPEAKER_00

So that that is the context to that constitutional to that constitutional change. And they're all actually it is the re-imagination you made this point earlier on. It is the reimagination of what the ANC is about and what it is fighting for.

SPEAKER_02

Do you still maintain the form that it took? And we will start with that's fine. For for obvious reasons. Yeah. This is the, in my view, the reason I wanted us to take very basic time. I am convinced this is the history of the ANC most unknown. But you're coming. Until the most people like, you know.

SPEAKER_04

No, you're going to ask us again how the Chiefs come back in 1994.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, I won't. I won't. But what I want to conclude with House of Tradition. What I want to conclude with is I'm not sure that that point is sufficiently made with its 1943 robustness, by the way, of the Chiefs. But Gloomgil. No, it's like it will return. Because up to that point, there's no single chief. That's one of the things about the ANC. None of the Chiefs ever lead the ANC like other parts of will come back to that. You can't say that because it's coming. No, but in this era, not in this era. Until the House of Chiefs is removed. No, none of them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. None of them. What I'm trying to say to you. Even when Lutul comes in, the Zulu Royal House still remain important for him. I agree. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

He's the first chief to lead.

SPEAKER_00

But he's an elected chief.

SPEAKER_02

Agreed. But I'm saying in the ANC, in any way, the point I want to ask from an organizational form point of view, your thesis was this was a people's parliament, Africa's people's parliament. It's not us, it's them who defining themselves as that. And this explains the organizational form that prevailed 1912 to the 1990s, 1950s.

SPEAKER_00

That's true. This is true. This is a character.

SPEAKER_02

Would you say what does it shed the skin of people of parliament to become the liberation political party? What would you call the the the organizational form it takes from 43?

SPEAKER_04

Then we are going to argue about semantics. Therefore, maybe we have to go back to our languages because now you start hearing the name masses. What's the difference between masses and the people?

SPEAKER_02

So part of what you would say is the first thing is it becomes a mass-based organization. We're going there. We're going there.

SPEAKER_04

We're going there. He lays the framework. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, all of the parliaments are very different organizational form.

SPEAKER_00

But it's interesting though, because there's a new lexicon that starts the new language, new terms. I mean, if you read it closely, that suddenly starts appearing. I mean, the idea of liberation actually starts around that time. Yes. That, I mean, when you read the documents of the ANC, this book that took the book that you've brought in.

SPEAKER_04

Lembed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Okay, but you before we go. I know you are trying to pay.

SPEAKER_00

Or to get into the political organization because I do think there's something. Yeah, what form do you think? I think there is something the um and remember what influences uh in the first, yes, there's an idea that this is the parliament of the people, right? But actually, the the the moving spirit, and that is how I think of SEME in many ways, the moving spirit behind the formation of the ANC, one of the major influences that SEM brings, he has studied at Oxford. He spent a lot of time in British Parliament, right? So part of it he's thinking the House of Lords and the House of Commons in how we structure the ANC in 1912, right?

SPEAKER_02

So this one is a Yankee.

SPEAKER_00

Kuma, Kuma is a Kuma Kuma is a very strong. Yeah, Kuma is thinking of libertarians. Yeah, he's thinking of an urban, he's thinking of an urban political organization that is fighting for the rights of Africans. Yes, he still believes that the ANC represents, it's a body that represents the interests and aspirations of Africans. But there are also other organizations that exist at the time. The ANC cannot claim that it is the only organization that exists. Even though a large section of the leadership of the ANC that had participated in the establishment of the All Africa Convention went back in a sense to the ANC. But the All Africa Convention did not die. That's where the new unity movement comes. So Tabata and all of that, those they stick to the All Africa Convention and it becomes something else, right? So, yes, the ANC is still, or at least its leadership in the 1940s, still believed that it represents the aspirations of the African people, right? But it is not a parliament in the sense that it had been conceived in 1912 when we'll return to this question.

SPEAKER_02

I like Prof's very direct, hardcore answer. We are now beginning to see a contestation between mass movement and people's parliaments, in which case there's a political semantic. Yes, political semantic being underscored. That uh uh are these masses the people?

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and I mean it's an it's an interesting question. I think uh certainly um the reason I tagged the SACP and Gwadani earlier is for this error that we're about to enter into in the next episode. How about the break? We deserve it, we deserve it.