ANC History: Episode 7: On Radio Freedom: Thami Ntenteni

Dr Mbuyiseni Ndlozi sits with Thami Ntenteni on the history of the ANC, on Radio Freedom.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Let's begin we uh just a brief background of Denny you obviously from politically uh where politically were you born and what are the circumstances that have you end up in exile?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah um you see uh Mousene um I my maybe let me start off you know just a little dramatic when I was in FOM Four in 1970 and we did the French Revolution. There were so many of us who were so excited, man. He we're talking the French Revolution.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Which one is FOM4? Do you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:09

From four would be at this point uh what you would call standard 11 or grade grade 11. Grade 11, yes. That's that's form 4 just before metric, just before metric. Agreed. Because form 4, that's when you write your metric, I see, your university entrance, you see. So we did the French Revolution in high school. In high school, which one Maurice Isaac. We did the French Revolution, and uh when we did that uh lesson on the French Revolution, there were many of us who were so excited. We outside in a break, you came together into small groups, and uh, in fact, our teacher, Umashaba, a teacher with a history, Umashab, uh, actually said, Oh, now that uh you have been introduced to the French Revolution, you think you will start a revolution here. But it was more light talk, you know. But that's what sparked the interest, you know. There was a sense that uh something is not right in this country, you know. And uh I think it was uh not for me, it was consolidated by the Tiro strikes. The Tiro strikes again, which happened in 1971, when Tiro at the graduation ceremony in KFL denounced Bantu education and he was expelled. And as a result of his expulsion, there was a close down of all the universities when Kiro was expelled. So I would say my political consciousness is around that time, okay, let's say from the 1970s, beginning of the 70s. So uh I then made a conscious decision, I can tell you now, that uh I decided that I was going to university because university that is where things were happening. And um I wrote my metric in no, no, I'm wrong, 1970 is when I was doing form 4, because I wrote my metric in 1971 and I got a school living certificate. I had to write uh I had to write uh a biology because that was the only science subject I was doing in order to gain a university entrance. I gained university entrance and in 1972 I went to the University of Zululand. At the University of Zululand, yes. At the University of Zuland, I became very active in SARS. In actual fact, I became also vice president external of the SRC at the University of Zuland. What then happened was that at about that time, I went to invest in 1973, right? 1972. Oh yeah, 1972, 1973, 1974, there was uh when uh Mozambique got its independence, there was the Freli Morale. Freli M Raleigh, which resulted in the arrest of all the top leaders of Saso at the time. And at the time I was vice president externa. And so it was then agreed that I should go and mend the Debian offices of SASO. But there was a lady, I was very young at the time, I went to school at a very, very early age. I went to school at the age of five. So I was very young. And this lady, our fellow student, O Papa, O Papa said, you can send this young guy to those offices under this environment. You are just exposing him, and uh uh he's just going to be swallowed up and be killed by the pools. He's still very young. I don't support the idea that he should go to the Sasso offices in Deblin. And uh that was what was agreed upon. My president at the time was uh a guy, he's Judge Makanya. Now I don't know if you know him, Judge Tami Makanya. We were together at Maurice Isaac, and uh we went together to the University of Zullen. So 1974, because of all of these uh uprisings, uh we were expelled from the University of Zuland. 1975, I went to teach at Maurice Isaac. And uh, even going to teach at Maurice Isaac, and that was okay. I I think uh that was not part of my plan, you know. I was still thinking, what am I going to do? When one day a group of students comes in and uh they say to me, uh Suzogland, it's early in the morning, nizongland. But I Su Zoglanda Uti Uyobau teacher away to Morris. These were my friends. We grew up together. I mean, uh, when I was in Metric, they were in JC. So I knew all of them. So you want me guys to go and teach you? They said, yes, we don't have a history teacher, and uh, we've already spoken to the principal Matabata, and Matabata has sent us to come and fetch you. So that's how I went to Morris Isaac to teach. I taught from three, from four, from five accounting and uh history with uh but CH machining. I taught CH machining in metric and uh a number of others whom I will not mention by name, but if they were to come here, you would see. I mean, we we had a very, very good relationship, uh young as I was at the time. And so I then said to these guys, you know, guys, you know me, and we know each other very well. And in fact, uh we are friends. But now that uh you have uh brought me here to teach you, as soon as I come into this room, your classroom, I am your teacher. And then your friendships, Zaibona mmapan, but when I'm here, because if we were to continue along those ways, along that line, I would be destroying you. I would be you would not mean I've been to university, I've passed my metric. So if we were to relate to each other in those in in that way, then uh I would be destroying you, I wouldn't be helping you.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Did your time in Maurice Isaacson coincide with Tiro's time as a teacher?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

No, in actual feat, Tiro was there in 74 and I arrived in 75. He was gone. He was gone, he had gone to Botswana in the time. I arrived in 75 and he had left then, but you know, um the interesting thing was that um my students who had become politically conscious at the time, they also insisted that um instead of doing the history that is uh in the textbook, we should do the real history of this country. And again, I said to them, you know what? Uh we need to go in accordance with the syllabus of the history. Because if we do that, you will not pass your history. Let's go according to the syllabus, and then after hours, after the school ends at four o'clock, after that, we can then have separate classes wherein now we talk the real history of this country. So during the school hours, I taught this syllabus, the history that was required. And then four o'clock, we then met outside and uh in the classroom, and that's when we now had it was more of a political discussion, really, and a discussion of history. So I had uh all these uh machine and a whole lot of them. So it is at this time that uh I'm approached, I'm talking 75, okay. I'm approached by one uh comrade. I don't know, you would possibly you know George, George Nene, he's late now. I'm approached by George, and George says to me, I've been involved in underground structures of the ANC. We have a cell, and um now the cell is breaking up. I am now supposed to go and establish my own cell. And your name was uh one your name was raised, and the people I'm in the cell with you know, but I'm not going to tell you who they are. So I am proposing that you become a member of my cell. I said, yeah, no, fine. He said, you agree? I said yeah, no, I agree. And then uh he said uh there's a certain training that I need to give you so for underground work, and uh but primarily what you are going to do is uh to receive uh comrades, uh MK members who are from outside, create what is called DLP, dead letter boxes where you hide arms, etc. I said, yeah, no, fine. Um I'm in, you see. He said, but before we do that, I need to give you that kind of training. But before that happened, before that happened, some of the people who were in the cells were arrested. I can tell you one of them was Stan Linkosi. You may have heard of Stan Ling Kosi, one of them. And so he came to me and he said, things have changed. We have received instructions from outside that we should leave the country. However, in your case, you have not attracted the attention of the security apparatus of the country, trying to determine whether you should leave or we should leave you behind. So they engaged. I wasn't, I didn't know. I only got to learn later who was it is that they were talking to. Not June 76, no. I left the country in February because I was, you could say, I was already a member of the underground structures of the ANC, and when I left, it was as a result of an instruction from the ANC outside.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So you left and ended up where?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Now, when I left, in fact, uh the other thing that would uh be of interest to you, I left on the same day with uh General Nyanda. The very same, same, same day. Uh and it so happens that he was the contact with the outside structures, Swaziland, where he was, I got to learn that later. In fact, the the person was an operative in Swaziland at the time was uh President Mbeki. He was and uh General Nyanda was uh the go-between. So when it was then decided that we leave, we left together. And a number of but the interesting thing is that uh the people I was living with, I knew them. We were friends, but we never spoke about this thing until all of us were across the border in Swaziland and say, I wanna now we are humble, yeah, Namia. But maybe the other interesting thing, you know, that I could uh that I can tell you. Uh I used uh Stan Uncosi's uh passport. We didn't jump the fence when we were growing up, and uh which later on, in retrospect, I put one and one. I've never asked about this, but uh I came to the conclusion that uh the guy at the uh border post must have been an ANC operative because you see why I'm saying that I was given Stan's uh I was given Stan's uh passport and uh I had short hair and Stan had uh hair similar to yours. And uh I was and I was instructed that uh when they call Stenkosi, don't stand up, just raise your hand and say, Yes, I am Stenkosi, and look down. But uh I forgot all of that. You stood when this guy said uh Sten Lingosi, I stood up and he looked at me and he looked at the hospital and said, You are Stan Lingos here. I said, Yes, I'm Stan Lingos. He laughed and looked at the other side and he stamped the thing, and when we went out there we're laughing. But uh, that's how we went in Swaziland. But again, there were certain problems and difficulties in Swaziland. Just on the day when we arrived, I never stayed in Swaziland, or we never stayed in Swazland. Perfect midnight, we crossed over into Lomahasha, Mozambique, because in fact we did not even stay at the AMC house in uh in Swazland. We were instructed to stay at uh find some places at hotels and not, you know, because well, there were some security measures and the Swazili police were active, you know. Well, I didn't know at the time. I mean, I'm new, there's Figuel again. But we crossed, we didn't stay. We stayed, we arrived in Swaziland, I think, early hours of the morning, around uh 7-8, border opened, and we stayed there until 12 o'clock midnight. 12 o'clock midnight, same day, we crossed over to Mozambique Lomahasha. Lomahasha, where we then stayed, and uh cut a long story short, stayed there for some time, but what happened was that uh when we are in Lomahasha and we are going to Maputo, there's a river there, and uh there were heavy rains, and that uh bridge there was swept away, and uh the only people who remained behind in Lomahasha were just myself and another guy, um, who also unfortunately has passed away. So we stayed there, but uh there was uh there was a not Mapaz Kenny, not Kenny Mapazi, not Kenny Mapazu. No, no, no, I know he Kenny's I mean I'm talking 75. I'm talking that time, you know. So uh but there was a euphoria in Mozambique at the time. We were held in high esteem. Remember, Freilimo has just taken over, Mozambique has just become free, and uh it is known we have skipped South Africa, we are Korean fighters who are going away to train and come back and fight. So, you know, there was that kind of euphoria in Mozambique, and uh we were uh treated with high regard and high respect until such time that uh the bridge was fixed and then we crossed over Maputo Maputo Tanzania. Okay, Tarasala. Now, when we get to Tarasalam, should I continue? Of course, when we get to Daresalam, uh we are asked the group of us who were there by uh Max Max Sesulu, who was uh an officer of the ANC there in Dares Salam, he asks us has any of you guys ever written something? And uh those who have say yes, and I had written, sir. I I had written, you know, because uh I didn't say this during the 19 the period 1972, after writing my biology, and I passed my biology and I got university entrance, because I was so very young. In fact, when I went to look for a job and And they wanted matriculence. The poor called me Pekinini. We don't want Pekininis here, you see. And my father was a very understanding person, what I know. So uh I like I say, I went to university in 1973, 74. So during 1972, when I was sitting when I was sitting at home, I used to write a lot. I used to write a lot. I used to write poetry. I used to write short stories. And so when Max asked us, uh, has anybody written anything? I said, yeah, I've written. And he asked me to write something, and the other comrades to write something. I remember I wrote about a minor strike. Okay, I wrote a short story on the minor strike. And uh Max came back and said to me, uh, this thing that you have written, is it uh a true story or it's fiction? I said, no, it's fiction, but it's based on true story because I was reading, I knew exactly what was happening. I said, no, it's fiction, it's not something that has happened, it's something that I have uh thought out on my own. And uh, you know, in fact, uh, at some point later on, I also wrote a piece, and uh, for some reason I would write these things and give them away. I wrote a piece and uh I wrote a piece and it was titled Voices from the Grave. And one of the comrades who saw because I wrote this thing and I left it on the desk, when he saw this thing and he read it, he thought I wanted to commit suicide. But that's a that's another story. So Max says to me, um, we have read this thing that you have written, and uh we want to suggest that uh you go for training as a journalist, and uh because we want to deploy you in Radio Fredo. I say, uh didn't come here for that. I came here for an AK for a soldier and have an AK-47 and go back home to fight. I think I'm not going there. Yeah. Max tried to persuade me. I said, no, I'm not going there. And uh there are a variety of other ANC leaders who came to the place where we were in Temek, Temek in Tanzania. They came and uh they asked to see us, and I told them the same story. I am not going to school. I want to go and train as a soldier. Can I have water? Of course they. Oh, yeah. So I then said uh I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

I said I'm not going to school.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I'm going to the military. I'm going to join MK. Until one day, the person who came was O R. We were all very excited to see the president of the AMC. It was nice. We had political discussions, and then after that, he then asked to see me individually, together with the other comrades who had been selected. But um I had a one-on-one with him, and he said to me, and I am told that you have been selected to go and train as a journalist and go to radio freedom, and you are refusing. I said, Yes, Comrade President, I'm refusing. I'm not going to school. I am going to the army. And uh and you said to me, I respect your position. I respect your position. No problem. But let me ask you a question. Assuming we were to take you and train you as a freedom fighter, a soldier, a guerrilla. You get your training, you finish your training, you come back from the Soviet Union or wherever. We give you all the necessary equipment, we give you your gun, we give you everything, and we infiltrate you into the country. You go into the country.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Now, what do you think? Would the people accept you as a freedom fighter?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

They don't know you. We've sent you to an area where people don't know you. They don't know you. And you come, you are carrying weapons of war and all of these things. Do you think the people will welcome you with open arms or the next one?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Or report you to the next police station?

SPEAKER_02 28:22

He says, What do you think would happen? Would they say, Woo, here's our freedom fighter, and uh embrace you, or they'll report you to the next police station. I said, the most likely thing is that they will report me to the next police station. I'm glad you're thinking like that. I'm glad you agree on that score. Because you see the responsibility we want to give you is bigger than that of the man with the girl. We're asking you to prepare the people of South Africa psychologically to receive the man or the woman with the gun. By the time the man and the woman with the gun arrive, you shall have told the people to ask to expect that person and that this is their liberator, and that they should not report that person to the police station. What do you say? It makes sense, Conrad President. So, okay, I agree. I will go and train as a journalist. But before I go and train as a journalist, I'm going to the army. So there was a compromise. Did my military training, and he said, yeah, no, in fact, actually, uh, the place where you are supposed to go uh opens in September. That was uh the party school where you are going to do your training, and uh when March or April at the time and said, You can't sit here until September, you'll be bored even, you know. So I went to train and come September, I was then uh recalled and I went to the party school in Moscow, where I trained as a radio journalist. That's how I got into. But you see, the interesting thing, in conclusion, uh this episode of my life, the interesting thing is uh when somebody else recognizes a particular potential in you, which you are not aware of yourself, and uh it changes the course of your life completely, and uh you never regret the course that you took. That's what uh OR did when I met him, and when he used that example and convinced me to go and train as a Radio Freedom journalist.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

So tell us the story then of Radio Freedom. Um where does the story of Radio Freedom start? How was it established? I ask long questions because you know you you chaps from uh the party school give very long answers.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

No, you know, in actual fact, in actual fact, radio freedom began inside the country. Uh the first broadcast, it may not have been called Radio Freedom at the time. The first broadcast inside the country was done by Walter Cisulu. It was done by Walter Cisulu, and I think uh it was an engineer. If I'm not wrong, it must have been Dennis Goldbeck who designed a radio, and uh I got to know about those things later. Because I also at some point when we were coming back, I smuggled some radios inside here with uh transmitters, and at the airport they did not even know. I said there are cables for television. They did not, but uh Walter Sisulu, the first broadcast of Radio Frido was in South Africa, or the first broadcast by Walter Sisulu, in which he says our house is on fire. Um our leaders have been arrested. I am broadcasting to you from somewhere in South Africa, but I will not leave the country. I am in hiding, and my wife is in hiding, and I'm calling on you, people of South Africa, to mobilize and confront the apartheid regime and continue the struggle. Now, it was a very brief message that Walter broadcast, primarily because you cannot broadcast for a long period of time when you are inside because they can trace you through coordinates. So they made that broadcast and switched off, and then I don't know if there were subsequent broadcasts that were made, but I know for a fact that one of the very first things, and this is very, very interesting, you know, in the light of today's circumstances and from my experience in communication and my understanding, one of the very first things that the ANC did, uh, primarily it was to train militarily and to establish uh international support. But one of the things they did was to ask for broadcasting facilities from uh uh Tanzania, you know. So the first country to give us broadcasting facilities was uh Tanzania Tare Salam in 1969, and uh the people who were involved in that broadcasting were leaders of the ANC. Bota Bombeki were also broadcasters, Josiah Chele and uh Dumanokwe, and a host of others, which therefore says to me, here is an ANC, even when it was out there in exile, that understood the importance and the role of communication, but I don't get that sense with the ANC today. But I'm jumping now, you see, so there was this understanding because when the ANC was still a legal organization, it could call meetings, it could call rallies, it could uh do all of these things legally. But once it was proscribed, once it was illegal, it couldn't do all of those things. So naturally, under the circumstances, primarily that was the reason of the apartheid regime to pen the ANC and other organizations. It was to kill the ANC, it was to actually uh create the conditions where there wouldn't be any contact between the ANC and the people. So the ANC understood that. And uh this is true to an extent because when we grew up from that period of the banning of the ANC in 1960 after Shabville, there is what I could call a political vacuum, which political vacuum is filled by Sasso in 1966, the emergence of the Steve Beacos and the Abraham Tiros and Pichana and the host of all of those uh host of all of those young leaders who emerge, but at the same time, like I'm saying Sasso 1966, uh 1969, the ANC starts broadcasting. Soon thereafter, the ANC got broadcasting facilities in uh Zambia, 1972. You know, if I am correct. In fact, I'm correct, yeah, 1972. But uh there was a political or ideological disagreement between the ANC and uh the Gaunda government at the time. The ANC supported MPLA by Augustino Neto. And the Kawunda government at the time supported Unita of Saving, you know, or at least well they were sympathetic to it, yes. Sympathetic to it, and they thought that there should be some form of reconciliation, you see. So there was that disagreement. So Zambian government said we can't say this on our radio, and then you come in the evening and you say something that is contrary to what we as the government of Zambia, so the ANC radio in Zambia was closed for a long time. In fact, it was closed from about that time we opened that day, we opened uh that station in Zambia. I'll come to that. So I'm then saying that's how radio freedom starts, okay? And uh that is why when we came, there was this drive to train some of us to be members of radio freedom. Because I think even then there was already discussions, because already uh it was clear even for the Zambian government that the UNITA grouping is not the right kind of. But uh I think there were discussions between the A and C, and it was clear that very soon uh our station in Zambia would be opened. So I went to train in Moscow uh party school. I trained in radio broadcasting together with uh my um the other comrades who had been selected. There were ten of us, and uh we trained uh from uh about late in 1975, and by the time we came back, uh Angola had celebrated its independence. We left from Tanzania, but when we came back, we came back to Angola, okay? And uh there were discussions with Angola to provide us with broadcasting facilities, but uh for some reason this did not happen immediately. So I went back, in fact, together with this group, we went back uh for training uh Penguela, military training in Penguela in Angola, not abroad, military training, and then uh we went back to we also from Penguela we went to Nova Katena. Um then you see uh Penguela was more of a semi-desert kind of place, it was not really uh uh good for habitation, so we were then given uh a camp further south, Nova Cater. And uh, you know, again, uh when we started broadcasting, we started broadcasting in Angola on the 16th of June, the first anniversary of uh the Soweto Uprising. 77, and just about that week, a week or so after we had left uh Nova Katenga, the pools came and they bombed Nova Katen. You know. So we started broadcasting in uh Angola, but uh but where? At uh Radio Nacional de Angola. Which town? Luanda. Luanda. Yes, Luanda. Radio Nacional de Angola, Luanda. It was at that time, it was at that time that uh agreement was reached with the Zambian government, and uh I'm talking 77 June, 1978. I think about beginning of the year, we started broadcasting in Zambia. So it group of us was sent to was sent to Zambia but I stayed in Angola I stayed and continued working in Angola you see uh okay broadcasting in Angola and then there were some problems amongst uh the comrades in Lusaka okay those who were broadcasting and um I'm not going to go into the detail of that but uh there were some in fact the head of the unit was recorded to Angola and when he was recalled I was then sent to Lusaka to head radio freedom in Lusaka okay so when I I went to Lusaka I think uh round about 78 or late in 78 you know and uh I work in Lusaka 78 79 I'm working ready freedom in Lusaka everything is fine okay and then something happens President Tambo meets with Didi Ratziraka of Madagascar and that's what uh OR tells me it says Didi Ratziraka says I don't meet a few a lot of people who say that's what OR tells me I don't know how I feel I just got goosebumps you many people who who say then or tells me I think I think I think I think about that I mean yeah yeah well a number of things that but uh talk about so he meets the the the Madagascar's um uh president or meets president Ratzira yes and Ratziraka says to or um president tam we would like to support your struggle in South Africa but um we are a poor country we don't have resources what is it that we can do to support your struggle or says give us broadcasting facilities and Ratiraka says um so when OR comes to Lusaka he says to me uh I want to send you to Madagascar Madagascar to do what in Madagascar you are going to open a radio station in Madagascar but uh Comrade President in Madagascar they speak French we don't have an office in Madagascar how am I going to even start talking to these people about that's when he tells me about this I say but uh no I I think maybe the first thing that needs to be done is uh send some senior comrades there to establish an office and then thereafter I can go he says no it's very urgent we can't postpone this you must go norade president I'm I'm not sure no no no no no no go I'm sure you will make it he sends me to Madagascar with one comrade a senior comrade to life who could speak French who could speak French and uh he was more or less going to be my interpreter there we get to Madagascar when we get to Madagascar we meet with people from foreign affairs I try to explain they tell us we've been sent by the president to come and see you and we will get the whole the gist and the essence of the story from you guys I I try explaining this radio thing and the foreign affairs people they don't understand what you want us to give you radio etc etc i no no no it doesn't make sense it just doesn't make sense to these guys foreign affairs we thought uh you were they'd never dealt with the liberation movement we thought you were coming from an independent country and we're coming to talk to you about establishing an embassy here now you're talking radio and we must also support and maintain you etc etc no we don't understand what they're talking about they go back to the president Radziraka Radziraca I think briefs them about what he had discussed with president Oliver Timbow and so the next time they come they come they didn't have a Ministry of Information they come with the head of Radio Television Madagascar and when that guy comes and I speak to him didn't take a day we clicked he understood exactly what it is that I was talking about and he knew what it is that I was uh coming for and he said when uh when can you start uh you can start tomorrow as far as I'm concerned I started broadcasting in Madagascar on my own and then sent a message to Lusaka with clicked the deal now please send me reinforcement that's how we established uh uh radio freedom in Madagascar now the advantage of uh radio freedom at the time is um you see we're using short wave and uh short wave uh we are at sea here the waves are easily there are no obstacles the waves are carried by the sea and in fact uh radio netherlands had a transmitter in in uh in Madagascar I'm not sure if we're using that transmitter but uh our broadcast from Madagascar were very very clear we even received letters from uh people here in South Africa saying we are receiving you very very clear so we were broadcasting from now or broadcasting from Tanzania which is the north and uh it hits to a very great extent the northern parts of South Africa who are broadcasting from Zambia which works almost in the same way as Tanzania northern parts of South Africa and central parts of South Africa and not broadcasting from Angola were hitting the the western parts and some central parts of South Africa and we are broadcasting from Madagascar we're hitting the eastern part of South Africa. So we've got South Africa fairly covered radio freedom is you know we've got it fairly covered and uh whatever attempts were made to jam our signal they couldn't because jamming if you if you know what jamming a signal is it means you actually broadcast electrically generated signal to that frequency and it's very very expensive you can't and you are having how many stations four stations you can't uh jam all of these four stations oh no Madagascar fine broadcasting from Madagascar now everything is fine somewhere along the line I think we were in Madagascar 19 1980 1980 yeah 1980 about up until 1982 somewhere 1982 I am then recalled to Lusaka again when I get to Lusaka now you can you can imagine I mean you you get to these places and you get established you are fine you know you you are familiar with uh the surroundings and you can even speak the language in fact in Madagascar could even speak uh not very well but could speak the language get to Lusaka I don't know why I'm being called to Lusaka uh my name was Don then Don Mugeri Comrade Don we have uh agreed with uh Addis Ababa that uh they're going to provide us with broadcasting facilities and we want you to go to Addis Ababa to open radio frame uh uh no no no no no you are enjoying the island yeah I'm enjoying the island there I'm enjoying the island no please send somebody else to utopia no no come right on you have now gathered all this experience you are familiar with how these things work there's no other person who can do this except yourself okay I then leave for Madagascar uh for Ethiopia now I can in Ethiopia it's the same problem it's the same problem that I encountered in uh in uh Madagascar now in Ethiopia it's even more it's worse because it's very bureaucratic you you are sent from one office to the other one office to the other and all of them they don't understand what we're talking about they've never dealt with liberation movements and by the way all the other liberation uh Zapu only arrived in Madagascar after us we negotiated for Zapu to be to open a broadcasting facility even in Ethiopia they came after us after we had so I go there do all these negotiations from office to office office to office until finally there is agreement there is oh yes now we understand what you are talking about oh yeah when do you want to start anytime the very next day I start broadcasting in Ethiopia by myself and I send a message to Lusaka I have now clinched a deal with the Ethiopians please send me uh send me reinforcement they send the reinforcement we start broadcasting oh it's fine now get familiar what then happens at the time is uh something happens in Madagascar and the comrades that are there in Madagascar are expelled by the Malagasy government it was a misunderstanding it was a misunderstanding and if I may just briefly you know because when I asked what exactly happened here you see our house in Madagascar was next to a school right it was I don't know it's a private school or one of the elite schools there and the children of the president were attending that school and so every day every day there were people who were standing next to our house and these were the security of these children we did not know about that that's what my comrades tell me and so once they noticed this tendency they thought that here are people who are observing us here from the regime from the regime you see and so they started uh doing certain things they were not even taking photos you know the these uh batteries of the you are they're pretending like they are taking photos and these guys got alerted and when they said we saw you taking photos they could not produce the photos because they were not taking photos they were just uh uh indicating to these guys that we are aware of you and uh but uh it was uh they didn't so the Malagasi they said uh these guys must go and they said uh do not send any other person other than the one who came here the first time and that was me so I had to leave Ethiopia at Isabago and go back to Madagascar right at that time we're not broadcasting I have to start broadcasting okay start broadcasting preparing so I then get to the story as to what happened etc etc and uh they speak to me because I I had already established good relations with uh they knew me Malagasy officials foreign affairs etc so said no no there was a misunderstanding but we can't undo that and we we we we've got no problem with you guys with you anc you know uh maybe talk to your headquarters to send you reinforcement so I spoke to them again and they brought me reinforcement and uh there I am again I am in Madagascar I am to Madagascar did you get maybe a a wife from there's not getting to that because you know you you when you mention Madagascar it it comes with a I think a very fond no no in fact um both Madagascar and Ethiopia but in fact maybe most of these places really because you see what happens you get to a place you stay there for two years you make friends right you make friends you get familiar with the people look at you become part even with Zambia the same thing happened I didn't want to leave Zambia right I didn't want to leave Zambia because I was going to a place I don't know Madagascar you get to Madagascar you establish yourself you make friends you make friends you get too familiar with the people you get to understand them ah you are now relaxed now it's home and then suddenly you are pulled out of this place there you are you starting afresh again Ethiopia Ethiopia they speak another language you don't understand so you know uh I think the fondness comes from there that you actually initiated something you got familiar so I'm in Madagascar again oh no I'm familiar terror I'm in familiar territory and immediately I get there I go to the places the familiar places and familiar colleagues and comrades radio and oh you are back and all of us are happy it's not new now anymore no sooner I am there I am then called again from Madakaska now uh what is it now what is it now I'm fine now you know I don't have uh I'm called to Lusaka Lusaka uh okay fine we're now broadcasting from all of these areas that's fine now a decision has been taken by the Department of Information to actually create the post of a director of Radio Freedom because you've got all of these radio stations right they need there is some coordination that needs to be done and so I am then called and I am then appointed as the director of Radio Freedom okay with the responsibility to coordinate the work of Radio Freedom in all of these areas. Now as director of Radio Freedom I had the opportunity I was visiting all of these stations all of the time and giving them an update about what is happening the situation and what is happening but I became based in Lusaka then I was based partial but over and above over and above there was I I actually established a support group in the Netherlands it was in fact they established themselves when they knew it's a group of journalists in the Netherlands they called themselves Omroup Omroup for radio freedom that's the Dutch okay and then I was invited to the Netherlands to speak about radio freedom because they had established themselves as a support group they had no idea really what is this radio freedom and what does it do etc etc so I was invited there and established very very good relations with them those guys they actually bought us state of the art equipment uh we bought us equipment we had equipment in Lusaka we had equipment in Luanda Angola we had Equipment in Ethiopia and in Madagascar, we had two sets of equipment. We had two sets of equipment in Madagascar. Now, what that did was that we no longer had to go to the station to actually record. No. We did our recording at home. We designed the place. They came, they designed the place, studio facilities, top of that. In fact, we were a radio station. The only thing we did not have was an antenna to broadcast from home. So what we did then was to actually take the tapes after we it made our lives very easy. Made our lives very easy because we no longer had to wake up or go to the station. We produced our programs here and uh did everything here at home, and then we only took the tape for broadcast to the station. That's what we did.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

So what maybe in this entire period, if quite frankly, well, up to 1994, would you say other than these challenges you are noting of establishment disagreements over uh what is happening in Angola and the Zambian government, the problems as well of uh uh equipment and all of that. And you were beginning to say that, but maybe I wanted to push you a little bit the response of the establishment. Because you are reaching into South Africa, you are contesting the airways, and you are agitating. I I will come to the programs in a moment, but just take us through surely the security branch, the South African security forces had to sort of ban mark again or go to okay, how do we counteract these chaps?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Uh take us through the highlights of uh the the many, many security attacks, yeah, as it were. You know, uh we say we will return on the neck of the yeah, you know, I I I know because as very young, uh, five years, 1991, 1990, my great-grandmother was a radio freedom listener.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Uh you you you have but quite a lot of those people there in the you have a lot of people because and baby baby baby Farips.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

Yeah, yeah, this was the only way that the ANC could keep itself uh relevant or alive within the political environment of South Africa. Primarily, primarily, without coining, the message was simply the ANC is alive and it is preparing and it is coming back. You see, that was primarily the message, and uh your um uh you know people, activists, etc. Now we used to debate amongst ourselves whom are we, who is our target audience, you know, because part of the problem uh which is very unique, is you can only assess your impact as a radio station when you are in the same environment as your consumers of your product. Here we are, we are broadcasting from outside of South Africa into South Africa. We are not part of our consumers of our product. So the question is uh, how do you then assess and evaluate whether you are having an impact, whether these broadcasts are having an impact or not? Now, there are a number of things, if I understand your question well. One, it was illegal, it was illegal for you to listen to radio freedom, which therefore means that the apartheid regime was aware of the broadcasts of the ANC Radio Freedom. Number two, they referred to us highly trained communist propagandists. We knew that's how they regarded us. Number three, they tried to jam our signal. Number four, 1985, 85, is it 85 or 86? I think it must be 86. I think it must be 86.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

Maybe you can uh get it. Was it before or after Gwabi?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

After Kwabi, after Kabu. Was in 85.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

So where if if maybe you use that as a reference.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

I need to I need to say something about that, you know. I'll come back to this. Uh takes passes a resolution to the effect because already there are signs.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Yeah, just a quick one. Cabwe is the 1985 National Conference of the ANC. Uh takes a resolution to do what? Amongst other things.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

Yes, it takes a resolution to the effect that we must take all every department must take it uh must take its trainers, its people for training, whether it's administration or etc. etc. Okay. Because, as I'm saying, already there are signs that uh we might be moving towards a negotiated settlement. In fact, uh, President Mbeki, uh I was head of Red Wriedom, and therefore he was telling me a lot of stuff that uh ordinarily other people did not know, even the secret meetings that were being held. So I knew exactly, I even knew, I even knew that when uh uh Bertha was supposed to make the statement unpinning the ANC when he actually re uh renaged and made uh and made the Rubicon speech, you see. So I was I was informed, I was up to date, I knew political developments. So what then happens is that uh I speak to after I'm talking to this resolution in particular because it has a it has a relevance to us as Radio Freedom. I say to President Mbeki, who was at the time the head of uh the Department of Information and publicity, I say to him, you know what? I think we need to take our comrades in Radio Freedom for training. They need paper qualification. In the light of everything that you're telling me, um when we get there, doesn't matter that these guys, I have no doubt about their professionalism and their understanding of radio, but when we get there, they are going to require paper qualifications. We need to see. At about that time, at about that time, there was a conference of information ministers, SADEC, information ministers of the SADEC region in uh Gadoma.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:18

Um that conference, um they discussed everything about information, da da da da da, everything. And uh they left the question of the liberation movements to the tail end, and after a reception, you see. So we go to this reception, and then the last item on the agenda is um the liberation movements. So uh I'm part of the delegation, Attabo, and uh another comrade Omanjam Simon, who unfortunately is late, and then we also have Swapo, whose delegation is led by Hidipo, Hidipo Amutenya, and he's got his uh department person, uh Sisinki. Yeah, I remember. So I know we are relaxed in there, having gin and tony. So they uh uh President Pimbeki and Hidipo, they approach us, the three of us. Comrades, what are you drinking? Oh no, chef from drinking uh gin and orange or drinking gin and juice.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

No, I said, Comrades, you don't see what is happening here.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

These guys have started with this reception so that when we go there we talk nothing about liberation movement. No, okay, okay. We are aware we are disrupting your enjoyment, but can you please go with you and uh sit down and craft a resolution? Craft a resolution above. So when we got there, we did that, we stopped the drinking. When we got to the plenary discussing there, nothing was discussed. We presented our resolution, and amongst other things that which uh we presented, which was the critical thing, which was the critical thing, was that the Zimbabwe, these frontline states, must waive their qualifications for entry into their technicons and their universities. They must allow our comrades to go into these technicons. If the qualification is you must have an O-level or a matriculant, that must be waived when it comes to liberation minus. And they agreed, they accepted that, and they then said the only provision is that they should have worked at least in radio for about three years. Good. So we we've got that resolution. That is why, that is why the importance of what I'm telling you now is that once we agreed with President Mbege that we are sending our people to Harari Polytech to train as journalists to get certificates, many of them were young comrades who didn't have the necessary qualifications. But in terms of radio and broadcasting, they were all of our comrades were sent to the Harare Polytech and they were trained and they came back with certificates. Came back with certificates, and I'm the only one. But what I'm saying is that uh we we we we we had everybody when when we came back to South Africa, when we came back to South Africa, indeed, true to form, when our comrades uh applied for jobs, they wanted qualifications, but they had qualifications and they had uh Harari Polytek, etc. So that's why many of our comrades were able to get jobs when we came back after the negotiated settlement.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

But you were about to say something about Abu, uh not about Gabwe, but whether it was 85 or 86 in relation to yes, I was going to say, yes, because you had uh raised the question, you see, I was coming to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:17

You see, uh in 86, 86, there are a number of things that happened around that period. One of the things that happened was a meeting between uh Gorbachev and uh Regal in Rejavik. Amongst other things that they discussed and agreed upon was to diffuse the hotbeds of tension within uh in the world. And two of the areas that were identified was uh the Middle East and South Africa. And Margaret Thatcher was given the responsibility to actually talk to the apartheid regime, and Gorobachev was given the responsibility to talk to the ANC to explore a negotiated settlement to the problem of to the problems of South Africa. At the same time, the eminent persons group was sent to South Africa, led by uh Obasanjo, to explore the possibilities of a peaceful settlement. What happened was that at that time when the eminent persons group was here in South Africa, South Africa sent fighter bombers, they bombed Haberoni, they bombed Lusaka, they bombed uh they bombed uh Harari, all at the same time. All of the same time. We were the targets. I'm now telling you that uh you were asking about our impact. We were the targets. Radio freedom. Radio freedom. They came directly for the DIP. They came directly for the DIP. Department, it was in McKenna, outside of Lusaka, not the headquarters. Our where we were working from now.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

So DIP stands for Department. Department of Information and Public.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

So the that's where the broadcast was being carried from.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

No, that's where we were producing. I see all uh publicity material, propaganda material was being produced from there. Joel Le Chitange was working from there, we were producing my buy. Uh, we had uh equipment there, we were producing our radio and we're taking the tapes to the so everything pertaining to information and publicity was being done in McGene.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:17

That place was called and it was bombed.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:21

I'm coming to that. So they then send the fighter bombers. In fact, I hear I was uh I was in the path at the time. We hear these uh fighter bombers coming, you know, because uh the way th the way these things happen, you hear the sound before it arrives. Yes, you hear the sound, but but our uh our place was covered in trees. It was covered in trees, and the roofs. I I don't know whether that was done deliberately. I don't know, I wouldn't say the roof of our house was green, so you could not actually see it from the air because it was covered with these trees. They went and they hit, they went and they hit uh an area which was more of a settlement. In fact, it was a pub where people, Zambians were staying, they thought that was our camp. That's what they hit and they missed us. And uh when they came back, when they came back coming back now to South Africa because uh there was uh a Namibian refugee camp. They went via that refugee camp and they hit that refugee camp to Smitherings. So they went back at uh where the casualties I'm coming from amongst ourselves, I'm saying they had missed us. There where they had bombed again, there were no casualties. Fortunately, fortunately, when they came, there was a young guy there who had done his uh military service, and when they started bombing because they were using what they call jumping jacks, these uh are the types of bombs which when they hit the ground, they spring up and they explode at uh at your level, at the height. So this young guy knew, you know, they dropped these uh cluster bombs, and this young guy was able to direct the people and say, and so what happened is that only the buildings were destroyed because of the because of the force of uh the bombs, but there were no casualties. You only had casualties at the Namibia refugee camp. That's where you had refugees, uh, that's where you had casualties and then and uh at time you see, you know when you have been through all we knew from our training that once you have an air force doing a bombing, the most likely thing is that you also have ground forces that are coming to do a mop-up operation. So we don't deploy ourselves, we were armed, we stayed with our hands there. We waited for a while and uh thinking that maybe there might be some ground forces when nothing happened. We went out when we went out, what we witnessed there was very painful. The bombings happened at a time when all the men had gone to work, the people who were there were women and children, and when these guys came with their Fighter bombers. They actually radioed the Air Force, the Zambian Air Force, and they were circling the airport there because the Air Force was there. Anything that goes up, we will take it down. They circled it. And they also told them that anything that comes, so you had a situation where we were the only ones who were there, armed, trained. You know, when uh when we went out and we found old ladies, women and children not knowing, crying, etc. And we arrived armed. They knew we were a friendly force. They started to relate, deployed them safely, and then started looking around to check if uh there are any uh if there's anything. Well uh fortunately there were no casualties except at the Namibia refugee camp. We used our cars, we went there, we took the people who were there, and we took them to hospital. But uh they were the bombing was not only just uh in Lusaka, they also bombed, I think, uh Zipra camps, Zapu camps outside of Lusaka, and uh we had to go and assist there with our cars, take people to hospital, etc. But that is the extent to which I'm making this to illustrate that uh we were a thorn on the side of the apartheid regime because they would not have done what they did. In actual fact, at nine o'clock, Radio RSA, Radio RSA announced that they've uh finished the Department of Information and Publicity of the ANC. Our broadcast in the evening was about that. We said, uh, they told you that uh they've finished us here we are here, we're still here.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:34

How did programming work? You you spoke a little bit about that, yeah, but what would a program run like on a day on a normal day? Did you pro did you program only for a four-hour broadcast or for a 24-hour broadcast? Uh what were the contents? Did you have news, history, music?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:03

We were used to the time that we're given. Uh I you must take into consideration that uh we were a broadcast within a broadcaster, right? We were allocated time. These uh broadcasters, they had their external service, they had their own national issues, which they were broadcasting on their external service. So we were allocated time with feeling their external service. So in some instances, I think in Ethiopia were given two hours, and in Macaxia were given two hours, and in Zambia, I think we had one hour or so, you see. Now, ordinarily, what then would happen is um, and in fact, that is also a very, very important point here, because what would happen? Uh we would monitor, uh, we would monitor uh radio, monitor PBC, monitor Radio Tej of Vela, Netherlands, and all of these radio stations. And uh also Radio RSA.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:29

But also there was a new What is Radio RSA, Republic of South Africa?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:33

Radio RSA, yes. This is the one Radio South Africa. This is the one that is now being called Channel Africa. That was Radio RSA before. So we would also listen to RSA, and uh there were newsletters that were produced, information produced from London, which they would uh so we were highly informed about what is happening in South Africa internally, and we were also receiving letters from South Africa. Uh, if I can give you an example, you know, at uh one point we produced a program, and uh our Zambian colleagues said, yeah, we know apartheid is bad, but this thing that you are saying, ah, it can be, they can't be that bad, these guys. You know, you guys know man, don't exaggerate, don't exaggerate. We said, okay, fine. The very next day we brought them the information where we got this. We said, here, if this thing is coming from inside South Africa, this is the information that we use, and they said they couldn't believe it. So we were really on top of our game. We were on top of our game. You know, there would be uh times when uh the radio in Ethiopia, the radio in Madagascar, the radio in Lusaka would choose a subject, the same subject, and they would say more or less the same thing. Let me give you a living example of what I'm talking about. Um time there was uh a funeral here in South Africa. I don't remember whose funeral it was, which was attended by uh Mongosutu Telis and we got the information and uh we knew that uh he was not well received at that funeral. I think it was the funeral of a sass activist, etc. Now we did a broadcast on that event. So uh I think it was it must have been a Monday, I go to I go to the office HQ and I see the leaders of the ANC, they are members of the NEC, they are in the groups or they're in Atlasta, they are heavily involved in some kind of a discussion. And when I get into the gate and then they say, here is one of them, I don't know what they're talking about. And uh just as I come in uh and I'm approaching them, uh John Cantler, he says to me, You see, you comrades, you are not supposed to be making policy for the ANC.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:03

You are supposed to interpret police. Yeah, yesterday you brought you broadcast a program in which you are attending Mawasoto Mutele, and uh Mao Soto is very angry now.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

So, what's the problem with that? What's the problem? Yes, we did, but uh how do you say the policy of the AMC, Comrade Joe, is against the Bantu stance, or has it changed in so far as uh Mangosutu is concerned? He keeps quiet, and Joe Mudise pulls me aside, and he said, No, no, we are making a mistake. You see, what was happening was Mangasutu Bukelezi and Ortambo were having secret meetings, or were having meetings, in fact, they were secret in London. So when we made that broadcast denouncing him, Mangasutu said uh, no, no, you guys are not serious about our discussions because this is what your radio is saying about me. Whereas we are talking here. So that is what made these guys angry. In fact, you also have a historical uh precedent on this. You know, during the Second World War, when the Japanese were about to capitulate and they were having secret discussions with the British about how this thing is going to happen. The BBC was broadcasting, denouncing the Japanese. And the Japanese says, You are not being honest with us because your radio is saying this. So it was a similar situation. So Joe says to me, we made a mistake. We should have told you that there are these discussions and that uh when it comes to Butelezi, just uh hold your horses, you know. But again, another example was when uh one leader of the ANC, whom I will not mention, said to OR, these uh Radio Freedom people are broadcasting, and we don't know what they are broadcasting because we are on shortwave, you can't proceed. We don't know what they are broadcasting. What mechanism do we have to know what it is that these guys are broadcasting? So okay, I meet O R. I I I used to have a good relationship with I meet OR and when in fact uh as I'm going into the office, and OR says, Don't, don't, don't, don't come here, come here. We go to his office, and uh OR says to me, umrade so and so has come to me and raised a concern to the effect that uh we don't know what you guys are broadcasting, and uh uh shouldn't we create a mechanism through which we would uh be able to know what we're broadcasting? So I have no problem with that, Conrad President. But this is how we work. We have an editorial meeting every day in the morning. We debate and discuss issues, and we come to a consensus. We come to a consensus about this which we are going to broadcast on that particular day and the direction or the line or the angle that we are going to take in the broadcast. So by the time we go and we start scripting and writing, all of us are of the same mind as to what we are going. So if there is a concern amongst some of, then whoever it is or leaders of the NEC cannot monitor us from away. They must work with us because we are governed by time. We cannot produce scripts, and then after producing scripts, we drive to headquarters, and then those scripts are read at headquarters, and then we drive back. No, we can't. Whoever is concerned must sit with us and you must be part of the team. Then you will know what it is that we are broadcasting, and they will be part of the team, and they will also be writing scripts, not just sitting there just to listen or to monitor us.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:47

No, for the sake of time, uh, and I'll see because uh uh the broadcast this side needs scripting. What would you consider the most memorable broadcast in terms of its impact on the ground in South Africa?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:11

That was a ungovernable, make a parking unworkable and make South Africa ungovernable.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:19

This was uh by OR.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:22

By OR. That in fact, even today, people when they are angry with the ANC, they still say we make this ANC ungovernable. That was the most memorable. And also, when uh PW was supposed to make the statement unpinning the ANC that was uh made the Rubicon were made, we also have crossed the Rubicon. And also, this thing, yeah, Toy Toy, Toy Toy, hoi, hey, people got it from us, which was in itself a tool of mobilization, the toy toi that uh when people are demonstrating, even to this day. So that was the impact of radio freedom. And what were the key artists that you used to play musically on the yeah, that's that's um that's another important question, um we say you know, because uh it took us some time. We debated that question and in the beginning, the most of the music, the songs we played were revolutionary songs. But as a certain point in time, we then said, but we have South African musicians and artists who have been banned by the South African apartheid regime. Your Miriam Makebas, your Huma Swikelas, etc., etc., they are in exile. And their music is not being played in South Africa. Why is it that we don't play? Expose our people to this music. And at that point, we started playing not only just the revolutionary songs, we played music by South African artists that were in exile, and whatever other relevant music or music that we found relevant to the struggle and which we thought would be appreciated by the people of South Africa. So we have evolved, we evolved over time, we evolved over time, and uh at a certain point in time, we like I was saying earlier on, I didn't manage to get in. Uh, who is our target audience? Who is our target audience? Uh are we broadcasting to the people of South Africa as a whole, or are we broadcasting to the activists? And uh we debated this over time, and finally we came to the conclusion that our target audience is both. And uh we ended up having cassettes which were uh recording stuff and smuggling into the country. You want to do a critique? No, no, no, not even a critique, it's just an observation or a comment. I don't want, I don't want to do a critique of. You see, we made the impact that we made using shortwave, which was uh not very clear in some instances or even jammed in some points. But we made this tremendous impact. In fact, uh you could say, you could say without fear of contradiction, that we kept Radio Freedom kept the ANC alive in the minds of the people. That here you have an organization which was operating from underground, but which had or actually knew or had a knew the value of communication. You now have an environment from a technology point of view where things are much easier, but from a communications point of view, the ANC is missing. There's a proliferation, I don't know, maybe one of they think they're doing a good job, but for me, I don't see it. There's a proliferation, proliferation of YouTube, uh, TikTok, uh, Facebook, uh, X, which was Peter, etc. What is usually referred to as social media. And 90 to 95 percent of these platforms are very critical of the ANC. There are people like uh Rob Herzov who have actually invested millions of rands, I mean your business, etc., millions of rands, and all of them are predicting the demise of the ANC. But from the side of the ANC or from the progressive side, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but uh I hear nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:45

You see, I mean nothing the commissariat commissar of incondology I do have thoughts uh on precisely that subject, but perhaps we can take solace in the knowledge that in that particular proliferation the African Renaissance podcast is uh entered and it's engaged in a battle of ideas.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:21

Sure, sure, that that's uh yeah, but uh you see uh take for example, let me give you an example. Let me give you an example. Helen Zilla. This is a government of national DA is in the government of national units, and Helen Zillier says, we're giving the ANC uh what 10 to 15 years. After that, the ANC will be dead. All that we need to do now is for us to prove to the people that we're better at governance. And what does the ANC say? Zilch. Instead, they say the government of national unity is what the people want. You can't. There's no political party that goes into power for power sharing, that goes into politics for power sharing. All political parties, when they go into politics, they want to they want to gain power. They don't go in there for power sharing. Uh the ANC electoral performance declines from 2009, and then 2024, boom, it goes into a government of national unit. Has there been a thoroughgoing and deep political analysis on the part of the ANC and which broadcaster says to us at the end of the day, you might, you might from the African Renaissance, or I might, but what is I'm talking? Now, about the ANC itself as an organization and communication. And I say, relative to the ANC then and the ANC now, I don't think the ANC is doing itself a good job. And I can say that without fear of contradiction. In actual fact, more often than not, their uh communication is more reactive rather than proactive. But that's me. Somebody else may have a different view.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:47

Head of Radio Freedom. Thank you so much for your time. I will leave all these questions to members of the ANC to resolve. But thank you so much for your time. Okay. I maybe one wonders what happened to all that equipment. Did it go to the SABC? What happened to the archive?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:10

No. You know, for example, um the archives is a different matter altogether, and it pains me. But let me tell you about I said in Madagascar we had two uh two sets of equipment. Now we did, we went, myself and one guy. We went and we fetched our equipment. When we were in Madagascar, they asked us, they requested us, they said, please, because our equipment was highly sophisticated and state-of-the-art equipment. They requested that we leave this equipment behind. We left our equipment behind. You know what they do? You know what they do? The ANC. Whoever is the ambassador there, and uh this uh young guy, they know absolutely nothing about all of these things that happened at the time. They then decide to repatriate that equipment, and it is sitting at Freedom Park there under classes, and nobody knows what exactly this thing is all about. That should not have happened. If the Malagasy felt that they don't know need this equipment now, they ought to have created a museum and put this thing in a class and said this is a historical uh site.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:57

Yes, our cooperation and our assistance to the ANC and this is and the freedom of South Africa. And the freedom of South Africa in this. It's exactly the same as the question of going out there and exhuming the bodies of our comrades. Why are you doing that?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:17

Because traditionally, from an African point of view, you can bring the spirits. And so in Tanzania, I think you were there, where there were graves that were dug and they were left open like that. Why are we doing that? Because this is a legacy of the cooperation and the solidarity and the solidarity that was expressed and the umbilical cause.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:46

And the umbilical cause of our connection of our connection. Why are you doing that?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:51

They took Moses Kotane from uh from Moscow, where Moses Kotane was sleeping together with uh the heroes of the Soviet Union and other Marxist, uh other Marxist internationalists. They took him and they went and put him uh somewhere in northwest. I don't think you know even where Moses Kotane is now. I don't know. And who's looking after Moses Kotane there in the Northwest. Moses Kotane's son, Joe, Joe Cottin, we used to call him Joe Cottin, was opposed to this thing, but because of some populist reason, it's wrong. It's wrong because where Moses Kotane was sleeping is a highly respected site within Soviet or Russian society. It was an honor for one of us to be sleeping there because that's the museum. Lenin is sleeping there, and then next to the outside, there are these uh graves, and one of our own was sleeping there, and we decide to exhume that person and throw him in some remote area in the northwest. Why did we do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:55:15

Okay, thank you so much. I think it's clear that the communications department of the ANC is in a terrible state of disinformation.