The Anniversary Toilet Incident: Boundaries, Burnout & PR Bollocks with Jennifer Hodgson

​​"Don't work with idiots."

​Sounds simple, right? But how many of us keep toxic clients just to keep the revenue flowing?

Or How often do we take a call in the toilet our anniversary? 

​This week on Business Life and Other Bollocks, we were joined by Jennifer Delgado, co-founder of Moda-PR

We’re cutting through the PR hype, talking about the reality of global scaling, and sharing why setting hard boundaries is the most profitable business move you can make.

​No fluff, no corporate speak, just the reality of building a business on your own terms.

Transcript

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Welcome everybody to another episode of Business, Life and Other Bollocks. I'm your host, Mike Dunn. Today's guest, uh, someone I'm incredibly proud of. Uh, she's also uh the co-founder of Moda PR. And I think I speak for everyone when I say she's probably a PR powerhouse in her industry. She's also a she's also responsible for changing laws, I believe. Well, many of you. Um I'm I'm delighted to welcome to the show today uh Jennifer Delgrado. Jen, welcome to the show. Very much. How are you? It is hot, isn't it? No, right. Jen, um obviously I know a lot about what you do, but for those listening, tell everyone what it is Moda PR do. Well, so Motor PR, we work um with people. We're people personal PR agency. So we work with experts on Twitters and people within the entertainment entertainment industry. Right. So whether you're CEO, founder, expert, celebrity, someone in the entertainment industry, we always say, you know, whether you've stepped out of a boardroom or you're going on time a celeb, you know, we can we can help you. And I'm right in thinking that PR wasn't always aware where you worked, was it? No, no, I didn't always work in APR. I've had a few jobs from army to working in the construction industry to work in at Airbus. I mean, it's been a variety, yeah. It's not always been, I think, what everybody sees on Instagram, which again is not what the reality is, but what what was the the reason for the change? What made you wanted to get into this industry? Well, I think and I think Ashwell vouched for this as well. We had that even though we didn't know each other at the time, we had like very similar, I think, outlooks and journeys on I guess sometimes we didn't really know what PR was. Like in my head, when I was growing up, I didn't really know what the term PR was. But I think everything that I loved, you know, throw back to like the Hills, Elka Tron, you know, the Katie and Peter Andre series where Claire Powell was in it, you know, like that kind of that being around, you know, that I want to say chaos, because I feel like it is chaos a lot of the time. Yeah. But being around that kind of just environment and the entertainment side especially, I was really drawn to. But yeah, I don't I think it was just something that's in me. I'm a very I'm I'm definitely a people person. I'm not somebody that is good at being chained to my desk 24-7. And I think PR, when I kind of really did a deep dive into okay, that's what that is, that really just kind of started to click. I was like, yeah, okay, maybe this is something I could go into. The only desk you'd be chained to is a bar lounge, anyway, isn't it? Really. Yeah, so's the person that's booked in there at five o'clock. So you got a business about you. Well, it got married then. So obviously we've done a bit of work with you guys in the past, and you are right, people person is definitely what the phrase I would use because you you stepped into the role as uh head of people in culture at one point, didn't you? And that was that was a massive change, wasn't it? But you really threw yourself into that as you believed in that. Yeah. With regards to sort of like clients you're working with and what you're looking for, uh you you've used the don't be you know the the the red the red flag, the time wasters of dickheads. What is what what what is for you when you know someone is gonna be a dickhead or a time waster? I mean, I think you just there is a lot of like gut feeling, like you sense it. And I can sense that and so definitely Ash can from I would say the initial meeting, sometimes even the email. Like, and I think we've got better at spotting definitely the time wasters, you know, and our business look very different when we started to what it does now. So probably our definition of a time waster back then is completely different to what it is now. But in terms of what it is now, it is people that don't really have a goal, don't really know what they want. Yeah, they come to us. One of our buggest, biggest bugbears is I just want to like get in the press, or just want to be a bit famous and we just think get out. Like we're just not there's no interest in that for us because being a bit famous or getting a bit of press, it's it's doesn't mean anything anymore. It's transparent. And I think as well now, you with regards to like getting in the press or getting famous, the social media now is at people's fingertips and it can almost be a bit of laziness. Yeah, you can do it yourself if you want, can't you? Yeah, you could easily pay for a blue tick and you could easily start paying to do this and that, but it's laziness. So when people come to you and they say, I want to get the paper, that must be like a fucking It's like a red rag too. Yeah, yeah. But you you are responsible though for some incredibly powerful stories that have been shared, haven't you, recently? Yeah, definitely. We've definitely worked not just recently, sorry, but I mean in the in the six and a bit years you've been going. Yeah, 100%. We've worked on some incredible campaigns, you know. Sharon Gafka's uh campaign that we did with her when she first came out of the Love Island villa, you know, she came out second, and traditionally back then, you know, with Love Island, if you came out second or third, if you weren't really, I would say in the finals, and I think that's what it is now, really, but I think the early ones people would forget about you. But Sharon came out second and I there was just something about her that straight away I you know, I remember talking to Ash and who's just saying that she's she's just she's just a bit special. Like, you know, I think she she's got something, she's got substance and she knows what she wants to do, you know. Is there in in your profession, uh is there a difference between someone who wants to get famous for the sake of it and someone that wants to get famous because they've uh they've they've physically got something they need to share. Yeah. And you do you pick up on that quite quickly? Yeah, because I think sometimes the people that do become famous for good reasons and for like Sharon, for example, and Georgia Harrison and people, they didn't necessarily want to become famous to be famous. They were, you know, kind of thrust into these things with probably very different intentions, whereas people are going online to try and go viral and try and be on TikTok sensations, and that's great. But there's a very big, big difference between being a household name famous and being TikTok famous for 10 minutes. Is there a particular social media that you you tell people is a is there no like you would you say that isn't right for you, or is there one in particular you just don't like at all? It depends who you are. You know, if you're a CEO expert, for example, of you know, like we've got a client at the moment that is incredibly well known in the construction and public sector, I wouldn't be telling him to go and dance to Doge account on TikTok, you know what I mean? But his his plat his platform is LinkedIn, like that's where we want to push him more at and like new media like Substack and things like that. Whereas, yeah, wouldn't be telling everybody to go on TikTok, but then for example, like big TikTokers or you know, people like GK Barry, for example, wouldn't be telling her necessarily to go be posting on LinkedIn. You know, it's just not her medium. And do you do you have to, when you sit down with people at the start, do you have to like come up with that strategy? Like, or do you expect them to have some sort of vision or do you prefer when they haven't got a vision and then you can like literally No, I I think you have to, you have to have some kind of vision and control over, you know, we always say we can do so much. I we have what's called like our ecosystem, which is so you've got personal PR in real life moments or IL IRL moments as we like to abbreviate, and uh social media. Yeah. And I think one thing that we've definitely seen in the last two years is that social media is something that you need to be having a grip on. You know, we can give you recommendations and we can help you like tweet little bits, but realistically, if you want to be known in your field, if you want to be up there with the likes of the top experts and the creators, you've got to have a grip on that yourself. Yeah. And the way the media is now, if you haven't got that following, it becomes very, very different, sorry, difficult to get you that traction. Doesn't matter what it is, even booking you on podcasts now. Podcasts are a business. Yeah. So if you haven't got that social following or you haven't got something to give them for their audience, then you might as well kiss goodbye to it. We've worked with people that have businesses that are in the tens of millions, and because they've had no social presence, uh digital ghosts, as we all know, it doesn't make any difference. It's like, you know, we've been pitching them into podcasts, and Ash has got a really great screenshot that we show at um talks all the time, which it says, you know, hi Ash, thanks for your thanks for your email. Transparently, we're looking for guests with higher social followings, and that is literally like smatterbang the reality of what we're dealing with. So I think, yeah, having that social part of whoever you are like locked in, I think that has to be your responsibility. As it is for us as business owners, we have to really, really, really focus on our LinkedIn. We're doing a lot more video content now, and so I'm sat here with you. Do you know? We we are just putting ourselves out there more, and I think, especially as a founder of business, if you're not doing that, you're doing yourself a disservice. 100%. Um, obviously, I'm not in your industry, but you know, yourself. I've um I've always been quite um present on LinkedIn. I post, try and post every day or every other day. And I've noticed recently that the likes have gone down, but the business inquiries have gone up. Yeah, because you're probably posting more intentionally. Yeah. Your strategy, like that's exactly what we did. You know, we very openly say, you know, we did kind of sleep on LinkedIn a little bit in the beginning. It was there, but you know, it's only through, I think, trial and error and kind of realising and have seen how the seeing how the landscape has shifted, but for us, absolutely, like LinkedIn is something LinkedIn I checked first thing in the morning before my Instagram. Yeah, yeah. Like that is just the the shift that I'm in. Well, I always I've always believed that LinkedIn will make you money and Facebook and Instagram will cost you money because it's time and it's Doom Scroll, isn't it? You just sit in there scrolling through reels, and some of some reels are fucking hilarious, but yeah, a lot of it is a is a waste of time. So I suppose for you guys, if you're dealing with someone that's come out of Love Island and they want to change their lifestyle, they want to do it, then yeah, you would probably say if you want to do that, then LinkedIn's the way forward. But if you want to stick to the other way of it, then then your Instagram and your TikTok is the way to go. I think it I think again it just depends on the client. I mean, for example, I'll use Sharon again, but you know, she um she obviously does a lot of she is a violence against women and girls campaigner, but she works a lot in politics, she works a lot now. She's done incredible, she's she's amazing, and I think for her, her platform is on socials, obviously, to show that lifestyle side of her. But LinkedIn is where a massive amount of her audience lives. I mean just think about the people who are gonna book her for these corporate jobs, the people that want her on the news, like these people are journalists, are living on LinkedIn now. So where they may have found you two years ago looks very different now. Yeah, 100%. Obviously, you've you've spoken about that there, but I want to just try to go right back to the start of your journey because it is it's it is incredible, right? We started similar times, it was in lockdown, wasn't it? Yeah, 2020. Um 2020. I think I think I remember when we spoke, it went kind of lockdown it, and we were in the garden because we had plans to do like all this fancy shit together. And we did do bits, but at any point we never got the chance to really fulfil it. Yeah. And I think at the time, this was before Ash came on board, wasn't it? Yeah. Um and we were so weaving away, but you were at home, you had your laptop on a desk, and you really threw yourself into it, didn't you? I I just kind of felt like I'd reached that point where I thought, I've got fucking nothing else to lose. Exactly. And I thought, I c I can't and it was that, you know, it is however cliche it does sound. It's like it was that pandemic shift mentality where I thought, oh my god, am I actually is the world gonna end and I'm gonna go back and sit in that office? Absolutely fucking not. Um I just thought, give it a go. Give it a go. You've always wanted to work for yourself, so just give it a go. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And Jack just said, God bless him, he said, Listen, I'll support you for a few months, like just see how you get on. And it just escalated really quickly. Thank God it did. And yeah, I just I just had this feel, it was gut feeling, and I couldn't let it go. And I think a lot of people that end up working for themselves will say that as well. 100%. I I am with you on that. Like I had when we started at home, we we were literally in the back room, and then COVID hit, no funding. It was like you ain't getting anything, mate. You've been going for three months, so it was like shit. And I did actually, I don't really like admitting it, but I went to TikTok because it was like the only thing people were doing is either sitting there. You did have a good stint on it, and it was great. Hey, I've still got all my followers, like I've still got my followers, but the videos are gone. The only I think Scarlett's found a few of them when she shows them to her friends. I'm like, please, for the fucking love of God, do not show them the Carol Basket videos and shit like that. Oh fucking hell. But at the time life was different, wasn't it? Everything was different back in 2020. But with throwing yourself into it and things escalating, something I think there was a point for you, wasn't it, when you went, this is getting too much. And obviously, there's a it's in the title of this episode. Tell everyone about the toilet situation on your anniversary. Yeah. Because I think I personally I think this is a a real an example of an oh shit moment of oh, this is really spiralling. But then also how you I think that was it, it was a changing point for you, wasn't it? It was definitely a changing point for a few reasons. It was a changing point for me where I kind of was realizing, like shit, I really need to like check my fucking boundaries because it's a Saturday night. I'm answering a call at 10 o'clock at night when it's my anniversary dinner with my then boyfriend, who's now my husband. But you know, that that's something that's special. You know, it doesn't matter how long you're together, an anniversary dinner, like to me, it's like you know, and Jack was sat there at the table while I was taking this completely unnecessary call. It wasn't an emergency, it was nothing. And because I just didn't have the boundaries in place to go, oh I I can leave that till Monday, that was just scary. Like that was when I thought, God, okay, I'm um my availability being 24-7, that isn't a flex. Like, that's really not when I and I think a lot of people need to understand it because similar to you, and I can relate to this, I had moments when I I was with my my wife and my time, we only had Scarlet, and I'd be taking calls at the dinner table, and I'd be thinking, What the fuck am I doing? And I I read a story that a Bear Grill's wife said to him, she said, You the camera gets your best, and we get the leftovers. Yeah. And when I read that, I thought, right, that's that's so true. That's fucking that and I I and it it it really did hit home. And I think there's a lesson there because I think yourself and me, because because of the time the businesses were started, we had to throw everything into it. But when you do that, you become like a fucking punch bag for everyone. Yeah. Oh, I'll go to jail, oh, she'll answer the phone, oh she'll do this, that doesn't fucking matter. Yeah. When it can wait, right? Yeah. And that hustle that, oh, it's 24-7, it's fucking yeah, okay. Elements of what you do as a business owner, yeah. Any business at the start, it is like nine to five is like where you're working with clients and then you're five to nine is where you're working on the business. But it's not fucking gonna go anywhere, is it? I'm gonna say something quite controversial now though. Well, I wouldn't have changed it. No. And I I wouldn't, I don't think, I think this hustle culture, and I think Emma Greed said it, and I know she's got shit for it, so whatever, I'm probably gonna get it too. Emma Greed uh skins CEO. Uh oh I'll send you the link. Um but she said it recently, and it does make she said it's all I've ever known. And I I do get that. Like I think for me and Ash, like we're best mates, we run the business, we socialise together. I think to ask us to switch off at 5 pm and start at nine in the morning is completely unrealistic. And I'm not saying it works for everybody, yeah, yeah, because it doesn't, and there has been times when we are absolutely knackered, but I you know, I do think that that is just part of the territory of being a business owner. Would I sometimes like to switch my laptop off and just get my paycheck at the end of the month? Maybe, but that lasts about 30 seconds, and then I think no. So Sarah, the the SBL and this, we were talking about this, and I said to her, sometimes I wish I could just have my sandwiches, talk off at five and fuck off home and forget about everything. It's never gonna happen. Never. The only thing now I do literally refuse to do is I I I feel like a bit of a shit at times because when my daughter was growing up and the business was started, I used to like just go and lock myself away. Whereas now I would I refuse to do that. Yeah, and I get that. I I think that it's that moment of growing up almost and going, right, I've got this email, they're not in the office now. But when the when my when my son goes to bed, when I've played with him and I've actually given him my best, yeah, I can put that together and send it first thing in the morning. Yeah. Because no one's you've got to work on your business after five after five, right? You have to work on it. Yeah. But then you have to work in it. So there's and there's a balance, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one thing that me and Ash definitely do, you know, during the working hours, 100%. And even obviously, you know, a lot of nights it's afterwards. But yeah, we we're very good at okay, like that's that's not urgent, listen. I can schedule that for the morning or I can do that, you know. Someone emails me at eight o'clock asking me a question that doesn't is not urgent, yeah, I'm not answering it. But in terms of the working on the business, yeah, me and Ash will be talking all night on oh my god, I just have this idea, blah, blah, blah. And I love that. I don't think that is, you know, I wouldn't class that as like hustle culture. I would just class that as being two frigging women that don't want to work for anybody else ever again in their lives. And I think you've got to do, you've got to there's there's you can't work nine to five and build a business of your dreams and a life that you want and expect that you're gonna do that without putting in the extra work. And I think I'm more than a happy listen, no kids, got jack, got a bulldog, I've got nothing else really. That sounds nothing else, not nothing else, but your your your commitments aren't as stretched as other people's. So your time can be spent more. And I I'm completely with you. And Sean, me and Sean, we were together. Yeah. So naturally, it's not like I text her, yeah. I've got an idea, and nine times out of ten she goes, Oh, fuck's sake, what now? Because my brain, with the ADHD side of it, because it just doesn't switch off. I'm I'm constantly thinking, like when the when the podcast came around, I was like, right, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. And I it's like that moment of fuck, am I going too fast here? Yeah. Because I'm scared of that burnout, because I've hit rock bottom with business before. Yeah. And I never want to get there again. Yeah, we we definitely have as well. And I think we've we've learned how to, I think, manage it a little bit better as well. I think for us, like Ash loves her, like she actually puts it in the diary, like her quality ash time, like weekend, she'll block out, she's doing football, she's watching a watch. Same thing for me. I'll sit there, Jack will go play football, whatever. And if someone asks me to do something, it's a no why. Yeah. Because I actually don't want to, I just want to go through my Netflix list or read my books or you know, do and I think what you know, that's but that has come from years of having that kind of oh fuck, I'm absolutely dusted, like I'm burnt out, like I need to learn how to kind of balance the time as well. And I think I think we do do that now, you know. We do, but it's I mean, it's it's so hard to try and find that balance. You just you just said it yourself. You can't have the business and the freedom without putting in the sacrifice. No, of course not. And that's the thing, like if you're working for money and you're building a business for money, then great. But for me, Sean said it to me, it's about the freedom to have a day off, to be able to go where you want, to go for dinner at five, and not have someone say you're not fucking taking a whole day. Well, for us, we go and get our hair done at 11 o'clock in the salon, we've got our laptop. Exactly. But I can't do that by making calls and telemarketing. Yeah, well, yeah, I couldn't have done that in my own job. It was barely, I you know, it was like give you a blood sample if you want to go to the busy dentist appointment. Well, you you you were in construction, right? You were cute, were you quantity surveyor? No, no, I was in customer care in um uh one of the biggest house builders in the country. And your dad was a sales director, wasn't it? Still is, yeah. He's a sales sales director. So do you think being in that male-driven macho sort of fucking environment has pushed you to be the way you are, like more because I I I do admire the way you and Ash have ran the business, right? Um, in the sense of you've kept it small, you've never stretched yourselves. Something I had to learn, by the way. When I when you told me that, I was like, well, I need to fucking and it's the best thing I ever did. But do you think coming from that background, a very masculine sort of men, men, men, sort of lads, lads, lads, hasn't put you where you are now in the sense of you're going, no, no, no, I'm gonna do it my fucking way. No. I think I was always like that. Yeah, I'm gonna fucking Yeah, I'm I'm generally and it yeah, I'm gonna copy. I'm very um I'm very comfortable around men. Like I've never, you know, I never walked into one of those rooms thinking any of them were better than me. Yeah, you know, absolutely not. No. Was it a little bit intimidating? Yeah, but maybe a little bit because my dad was above me and I thought, shit, I've got to do this right, otherwise my dad's gonna like. So no, in the the male thing was never a thing for me. I'm growing up surrounded by lads. I was in a friendship group when I was younger and I was the only girl, and there were three lads and I was the boss. Do you know what I mean? I was like my daughter. Well, that was it, like it I I've never had an issue being around men. I think, you know, what it did do, if anything, actually, it kind of made me realise that I could deal with difficult and different environments that are so out of my comfort zone and so far away from maybe where I thought I would be. Because, you know, before I went to work in that job, I'd also done an internship in talent management years before. So I've gone from like celebrity to construction back to like celebrity now. So it's you know, it doesn't yeah, it never I don't think that really contributed, but it definitely gave me a lot of I would say skills. Yeah. With regards to that celebrity side, there's There's is there a difference between celebrity and influencer? Yeah, I think so. I mean influencer, I don't really like the word influencer anymore. Um it's more we'd probably categorize them as creators now, creators and celebrity. But then you know, there is there's it's such a blurred line now that the differentiation between one or the other. You know, for example, you've got people like Grace Beverly, who is an incredible entrepreneur, like incredible businesswoman, but she is a creator, she's a podcaster, she is, you know, she's everything. And I think that's especially for us over the last two years. We started off the business in brand. Like we were working with brands heavy, and we started seeing about two, three years in, about three years ago now, it was you know, the founders of these businesses are where it's at, people that's where they're interested in. And it's taken, I think, a while for people to kind of catch on in the last two years or so. But we saw it years ago. And I think when that's the the real thing for us that really transformed our business when we were like, Ashley, fuck brand. Yeah. Like we want to work with people because that's what we're good at. And once we really kind of we had the balls to say, no more brand, no more brand, just people, yeah, that flipped it for us. But that's that's so admirable though, that you were able to pivot. And is it so hard to few like us? We were always telemarketing, just telemarketing. And then we said, actually, we could fucking do some recruitment as well. Oh, actually, we could do that as well. So rather than us trying to have one form of streamer revenue, we sort of said, Well, we can diversify a bit. Yeah. So we brought in different ways of working. But for you guys, you were focused on brand and you've gone, it works to an extent, but the people behind the brand or who you want to work with. Yeah. Because I suppose you like you work with when you work with us, I used to say two will attack. Shit, Jen, you know, we're we're a telemarketing, you're working with celebrities over there, and you'd be like, we're not bothered by that. We're bothered by the people behind the company and where they want to get to. And you did some incredible work for us. And I always say to people, Moda, the because you're not what I love about you guys is you're not asked about you will listen to where people want to go and you won't shoot it down. No, but you'll always advise. Yeah, well, and you know, Ash always uses that, it's the best analogy ever. It's like Kim Kardashian, she said she wanted to be on was it American Voe? Cosmo, that's it. She wanted to be the cover of Cosmo. And the publicist at the time said, I think you basically need to rein it in. And she was the cover of K9 magazine at the time, which is like a dog magazine. And now she's been on every single cover you can imagine. Like we always say we're not gonna sit on your dream, absolutely not, but what we are gonna do is we're gonna help you get there properly. We're not gonna say to you, you come and join us on Monday, by Thursday, we're gonna be talking to British folks. That's not gonna happen. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. We're realistic, and we're not we're not gonna take your money if we don't think that we can help you either. Yeah, and I've noticed you with your post, you're very honest about that as well. And I like I like that because uh look from from from an outsider looking in, you see maybe it's an album. I see a lot of PR companies coming up, and it seems like there's been a culture change, but do you do you girls still find that there's uh still a bit of a toxic or hasn't you know, is there a toxic way that this you're you're in the street? Because I know in ours is it's it's terrible. I mean I wouldn't say toxic to to that extent. I think there's definitely listen, in any industry there's gonna be bad adults, 100%, right? There is, and there are you know, there there have been instances in our industry where and it's I would say it's more so in the celebrity space where people will be paid by publicists to maybe tell a story in one way and it's just it's not it's the money grab, basically, it's the money grab, it's not thinking of the client and their due diligence, it's not thinking of the best way to tell their story for them, but not for the quickest way that it can get out there. You know, we did uh the Aurea Duba campaign recently and that was uh one strategic long form podcast, one interview on TV with Lorraine, and it was small, smaller interviews with the Times and Mental because he wanted to really, really get through to the right audience. Now, if that would have been somebody else, they could have just taken that to a splashy tabloid, maybe got a few grand for the fee of it, and it would have been everywhere. It was everywhere anyway, in the best ways, and it's just told through his lens and through and you know, in the right way. But yeah, I think there are times where you know there are people that are doing it for the wrong reasons, 100%. But I think you've got that in any industry, it doesn't matter where you are. Like I just think sometimes in our industry it's it PR sometimes does get a bad rap because the amount of times that people have come to us and said, Oh god, you know, I've been burnt by my last agency, but and it's like can't take that baggage into your next relationship. If you took that baggage into every next, you know, yeah, yeah, treat it like a bad ex-like just leave it be. That's a good way of looking at it. We we get it now. Like, like I say, with what we do, the word telemarketing, we took out of our entire branding because people were going, fuck telemarketing, you'll call me while I'm watching the chase. It's a bit of a trigger word. Yeah, oh mate, uh you see people go into like a fucking cold shot. Oh my god, the telemarketers are coming and get me. It's like we're not here to sell you insurance, but we we took it away, and it's the best thing we ever fucking did. Yeah, because now people see the word lead generation, they're like, oh my god, you're the you're the saving fucking grace, you're the lead generators. It's like it was the same fucking thing. Yeah, you just package it. It's just package it differently, yeah. And the thing is though, you get people saying, Oh, the last telemarketing interviews, they they were they were terrible. They promised us the guarantee. The word guarantee, fuck it, honestly, it's the same in our industry, don't worry. Oh, well they're guaranteeing me this. Okay. Do you because I always say that cheap is easy, but results and quality are not that easy to find. Pay cheap, paid ones. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And we had it, we had a competitor, um, which I won't go into much. He he put a big post up saying, pay peanuts, get monkeys when we first set up, because I was on my own. Yeah, cool. So I didn't have to fucking charge an arm and a leg. But because I beat your client, he was like, Oh, you and it and we've still got the tweet up in our office now. Is that the framed one? Yeah, yeah. It's an example of where we've come from, and now you know we've surpassed them and we do charge more. And yeah, we do, but uh we don't just have one package, but you've got to move with the fucking times. And as is your right, by the way. Like when me and Ash first started, we were charging £500 a month per club. Like, we wouldn't get out of bed for that now. That's not me being pompous. No, no, no. We've earned all we've earned the right to charge that, and also we've got overheads with a business. Like, I cannot charge you £500 because that's what one of my pieces of software costs. We we we um we had it the other day where someone said that they've halved your your proposal. I said, right, they said, can you match it? I said, right, let's just scale this back. I said, that means their running costs. Yeah, and but they I was like, so that means that their uh their running cost per day are less than £100. Yeah. And he he went, he went, I see what you mean. I went, right. I said, every business has a running cost. I went, and we have to make sure everyone is being covered, not just people on the phone, the national insurance, the pensions. So I said, no, no, I'm not, I'm not gonna match it. I was like, you want to go with them. He's they've they've come on board of us because it came to fruition, they were just gonna outsource it to somewhere else. Yeah. So it's that meeting someone, and we're the same as you. Yeah, we used to work with fucking anybody. Oh my god, it's them, we gotta go and work with them, get them on board, yeah, lower the costs, get them on board, whatever it takes. Now I'm like, no, fucking no chance. No, no, no, no chance. And we walked away from a client recently because he was micromanaging and he was fucking on the phone every five minutes. I'm like, mate, this isn't how this works. We're we're a business driven by quality, and everyone, if they're paying for a service, they of course want to see results. Yeah. Because your industry is it is results driven, isn't it? In an aspect of like where you want to get people. I hate it. I hate it. Like, we cannot guarantee, I can't guarantee from one day to the next what the news cycle is gonna do. It is chaotic. You know, when the Queen died, for example, RIP, like me and Ash were in New York, and that morning, we so before we got on the plane, we knew that uh there was gonna be a client that was on the rain, and there was a client with uh a Graptia exclusive article coming out. When we by the time we landed and we realized the Queen had died, that obviously article did not go out, and the rain was not covering anything other than the Queen dying. Like, I can't guarantee like how how would I have guaranteed that? Like, you just can't. It's mental thing. That, you know, when it comes back to like the toxicity of people in our industry, it's when I see that that really grinds. Yeah, I've seen when you've spoken about that. Like, if anyone tells you that, like run like Forest Gump, run, run, run, because you can't. We we got go so we had a client that came on board with us a few years ago. They were with another competitor, and this competitor guaranteed them three to four results a day in a very, very fucking hard target audience. Yeah. And he said, if you can put guarantee in the proposal, I'll sign off. I went, first of all, the only guarantee you're getting is transparency and quality. Results, I can't guarantee. I said, Can you guarantee me that there's gonna be record-breaking summers next year? No, you can't. No. We have a clause in our contract that says it as well. You can't, you can estimate. Estimate, yeah, I can estimate what people do based on what C person did or say person did, but every campaign is different. Like everyone you work with is different, right? 100%, but you do get you get the vibe. So recently, like we worked with Charlotte Crosby, like she's incredible. Yeah, that's an amazing piece of work that is, by the way. She she came to us and she said, This is what I want to do. You know, it was very clear in like the story that she wanted to tell. And straight away, like we were on the same page and we had that vibe with it. I was like, right, yeah, so this is where I'm gonna go, so what I'm gonna do, and I can't see why. And I always say, based on previous experience of what we've done before, I cannot see why they wouldn't want to take the story. But I always have to make you aware that we might not, we always might need to pivot. But that's the way it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You know, we've just done we're working with Alfie at the moment. I just took talkers. I love that. Amazing. But originally we said, you know, let's try and go for the this morning. He wanted to go on this morning, and this morning didn't really want to take it at that point. So we went to Good Morning Britain instead, who we work with a lot and who are fantastic, and it's been the best thing ever. So doing regular check-ins now with him across the month, like the coverage that he's getting off the back of that is probably more valuable. When you get these these typically thrilled, um when you get these people on board, Alfie, Charlotte Cross with these guys, what's the pro what's the process of bringing them on? Like, is it you? Do they reach out to you? Do you go to them? Do you meet them at shows? Like, how it it can depend. We met Charlotte at um a BAFTA event um with Intertalent. Um, another talent agents we work with a lot, they're great. Um it could be a cold email. Ore came to us in our info at inbox, you know. Sharon was a further to my talent manager at the time, George the same, you know. We work now with such a lot of talent agencies that they get used to our style, they know who we are. So Alfie, for example, we worked with Chloe, his manager on a previous client, and she just knew our style, sent us to her, and it's been great. So very, very different. And then sometimes, you know, me and Ash, like we will call that reach as well for people that we really, really want to work with. Yeah, why not shoot a shot? Yeah, absolutely. You know, like I and there's nothing better, I think, for us than reaching out to a talent agent or a talent and telling them generally how much that they love their work and they want to work with them because that is genuine. That's not that's not from a place of bullshit. Like we really, really like we wouldn't reach out to you otherwise. So I think it there's a few ways. Yeah. What one and and and for you guys being in this industry, is there is there a particular load of bollocks that you see from competitors and you think, for fuck's sake, here we go. Um I wouldn't necessarily say bollocks. I'd probably say, well, when I say bollocks, maybe some pricing. Some pricing that we always come against. But that's necessarily because sometimes we come up against, especially in the celebrity space, a lot of freelancers, and we're not like we're classed as an agency, so we have bigger overhead business costs opposed to a freelancer. So a freelancer can charge less than we can, which sometimes we do lose out, especially in the celebrity space to that. But it is a hard pill to swallow sometimes, especially when you know you really love that talent that they've got, or something, you know, like it is, but you know, and this is something that's taken a long time to be comfortable with and say it after my confidence crisis last year. But I always know that cream rises to the top, and I don't mean that in a cocky way, but I think if people want to work with us and we've qu and we've quoted them a fig that is too expensive for them, so they've gone elsewhere, that's fine. Let them because they might come back. And if they do, then great. And we've had that before where you know we've quoted people and they're gone, oh it's a bit expensive. Well, okay, sorry, I can't do anything for you. And then they come back because they've gone to a lesser or gone to a cheaper, maybe like a day rate thing, which is something that we just don't do. And they come back and it works. And then there's that kind of understanding then, there's that education, and I'm not I'm not gonna lower our fees to 500 pounds a month, I'm not gonna do that. So we're probably not the right bit for you. So the right people that we are that are willing to pay our fees, then that's fine. Well, what's the what's the one industry you guys love working in most? Like what's the sector that you love, like what's your art? I know this is really gonna get me going. If that fucking makes sense. Um, to be honest, I think I wouldn't necessarily say there's a specific sector. We love working with founder creators, definitely. I think that's such an incredible and exciting market because I feel like over the last, I mean, you've got people like you Stephen Bart and things who've been around forever with the personal brand, but some really, really great brands now that are with the founders at the helms who are incredible creators as well. And I think that's a great space to be in. Um celebrity space, yeah, I absolutely love. I do love working in that space. And I love the kind of like new genre of creators that are coming through as well. Like, you know, we've just um we've just been in discussions with a book talk creator who she's great, you know, she talks a lot about like that thriller concept and you know, from book to film adaptations and might sound a bit niche, but my god, there's a market friend. Yeah, yeah. And there's a genuine interest for me and Ash as well. Like Ash is like horror film girly, I'm a sweet girly, you know, we love writing our books. Like we just so yeah, I I wouldn't say there's one specific sector, but definitely one type of person that we like to work with. Yeah. Well if it if it so you were saying then about horror films. I suppose if you had the opportunity to like work with like that guy that's just made obsession, oh he's like the next hot property. Yeah, uh, he's done like he's made like 20 horror films. He was a YouTube creator, right? Yeah, yeah. He was just a YouTuber and like he's turned into this new horror director, and everyone wants to work with him. So I suppose that's would that be something that you would absolutely love to work with? Certainly, we could get right stuck in there, yeah. Make it work, yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing for us as well that we really put an emphasis on is we want to work with people. If they're called talent, want them to have talent. You know, and I'm quite pig-headed about that. I'm not gonna say like I just think if you're gonna call yourself a talent, have talent. But you're right, yeah, I don't think it's a big anything. You're right to say that. Yeah. What is it? What are you looking to gain from it, I suppose. Yeah. I can ask you something quite personal. I know you went through quite a bit, but what's been the the hardest the hardest time you've had in being a founder yourself? I think probably last year when there was a time when I thought, I don't know if I can do this anymore. And it was that was the first time in years that I'd felt like that. And I but I was scared because I thought, first of all, if I say this to Bash, what's she gonna do? Because it's not just me. Yeah, yeah. You know, I you know, we have a responsibility for each other, it's 50-50, and if that just one person's feeling like shit, then the likelihood is definitely at that time that the other person probably was as well. Got very similar vibes, but yeah, I think last year and it wasn't just us, I'm quite pleased to say, you know, everybody was going through it in our industry, and I think people just in the economy in general, any business owner we talked to, like was going through it the last 12 months. 2025 was a thundercunt of a year. Yeah, it was the hardest year for us on record. We we literally we I and it's mad, I seem to speak to a lot of people. It last year, like I failure there, like we we genuinely had moments last year when even Sean and Say, we just become parents again and there was times when we looked at each other and said, I don't I don't I don't know if I can do this anymore. Oh yeah and it's the world and like you say, when you're involved with someone else, you then gotta take that, but then on the flip side of it, that person brings you through it as well. Oh yeah, 100%. Like, and I think you know, Jack lives with me, obviously sees everything. He's a lovely lad, Jack. He's great, and you know what it is, true what they say, you know, who you end up with and who you marry makes such an impact on your business. It does, like, because if he hadn't have been so supportive at the beginning, I wouldn't have been able to have the freedom to just throw shit at the wall and see what's sticks. I wouldn't have been able to do that. And I think over the last 12 months, definitely like obviously me and Ash are like best friends. Like we were ventinutes of the 24-7. But there was times where I would just go to bed and like I would just I'd cry and I'd say, I like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, and I I just don't know how to get out of this. And I think it was only when really me and Ash, like, I think we had this conversation quite a few times, but we just got to the point where we were like, we've just got to, there's no plan B, nobody's gonna hire us, we're unemployable, we've just got to get a grip. And it was mad because we were at um we were working at the Hilton last month, I think it was, and we were going back over the last 12 months, and to look at like the numbers was scary, thinking, how the fuck did we keep those lights on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we did, it's like we we did, and that kind of pivot again, like I said before, like transitioning to that really focusing and double down and on people and personal PR is where it clicked. And we were like, stop trying to like do everything, let's just do something and do it good. You have to have their moments. Yeah, you can't have the success without the moments of oh shit. Oh yeah. Because otherwise, yeah, no one wins anything from being perfect all the time. No, there's no football player in the world that has gone on to win World Cups about being beaten in more fight. Like Cristiano Ronaldo. Yeah, he says I've lost more finals than I've won. Yeah. But he's he's classed as the greatest player, yeah, one of them of all time. Yeah. So you for me, I'm grateful for every moment of every setback, of every time I thought this is gonna fall apart. It's the worst feeling for me was watching Sean go through it. Yeah. You know, like you know, a lot of people don't know this, but eight for September last year, I I did contemplate suicide and I found myself on the phones of the Samaritans. And that's been that's been the biggest wake-up caller thing I've ever had in my life, was where I actually said, like you about boundaries, yeah. That's it. I'm not I'm not gonna find Pete please everyone. I'm not gonna be I'm not gonna put my wife and child as the second they're gonna be the they're gonna have the best version of me every time. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So um it seems like last year was an absolute bastard for a lot of people. It was, and like you're saying about like prioritizing things, I know it sounds really silly, but you know, I am obsessed with like reading now, like that is my like safe space. But last year, I think it was January, I turned around and I was like, I love reading, I've not read a fucking book since I started this business. The only book I read was Stephen Barnett I was CEO. Yeah, I've and I thought that can't be the only book I've read in five years. It can't. I love it. I we've got books upstairs and I'm desperate. I've just finished uh Let Them Live. And honestly, I think it is that if you're going for a tough time, that is the book to read. Yeah, she no, she gets a lot of hate, but actually, that was the first book I read last January because I said I'm gonna read one a month. Yeah, yeah, and now I'm probably on one a week. And it's not business books. Mel Roberts was the only one that was probably a businessing one. It's not, it's like I read thrillers, I read anything that is like I don't need romance, I don't need that shit. But like anything that's like sci-fi romance, like it's just not for me. Yeah, yeah. But any like thriller, if you're getting murdered, if there's a mission. James Patterson's. Oh, I used to love, I used to read his on holiday, but now I'm a Frederick McFadden, C.L. Taylor, you know, just all like any thrillers can get my hand on I love. And it's come, I don't I want to say like a bit of an addiction, but a healthy one. It's like there's a library, like 300 yards from my house. So like I'm on first name service, I have a girl in the library, she saves the books that she thinks I love. Like it's great, but honestly, and that is I've got I'm not embarrassed, like that is such a happy part of my life. But that is a credit. So we're talking about quality of people and people paying attention and looking at people's results. She now knows your type of thing because she's listening all the time. Yeah. I think that's that's pretty cool. Yeah, I went in on Saturday with three of them and she goes, Oh my gosh, have you read them yet? I said, Yeah. I said, and I did laugh. I said, Yeah, I've read two and I realised I've already bought the other one, it's at the bottom of a bookshelf. So she laughed and she's like, So what are you going for this week? Brought us three more back. And it's just nice. And it's like it's something that has become so part of my like habits that keep me functional away from work. And I think it's intentional that I don't read these business books. Not saying I won't ever again. I've got the Emma Greed one, I love her, I will read that. I've got, you know, Steph Sword Williams. Career come down. I've started that, loving it. But in terms of like prioritizing and like escaping my work points, like that's not and I do know what I'm with you on this. So I I I've got a couple of books that are like my Bibles. Um How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. You told me about that one. It's the greatest book that I think I've ever read because it's not a business book, it's just about how you better yourself. Dale Carnegie, he was fantastic. Very old, but brilliant. I take that on Harley with me. Yeah. There's Paul Cheatham Cox Taking Care of Business. That's another book I won't read. And then the other one, weirdly, is uh a book called The Jaws Log. You know the film Jaws? Yeah. If you ever read, if you ever want to realize how tough life can get, read the log. Uh because I'm telling you now, you'll read it and go, fuck me, this wasn't just about a big super plastic chart. This there was so much that went into it. So there's books like that, but then at the same time, I do feel like when I read certain business books, it puts me. It's weird to say this. I feel like shit, I've not been doing this right. Like I don't want to, I don't want to get political, but like James Watt, um Brewdog. Yeah, I couldn't read it because the second I got into one of the chapters, I was like, This, you're just you're making me feel fucking pissed off. I think there's like definitely something, and I've talked about this before, it's like learning to block out that noise. And I think that's why I don't read a lot of these business books because there are so many opinions flying at me all the time, whether it's online, Instagram, TikTok, courses I'm being sold. I'm just like, oh my god, shut the fuck up. I'm like the biggest thing I've ever done is trust my gut. And the biggest time that it's fucked up or where I've really felt like shit about things is when I didn't trust my gut. And I think I'm gonna just I'm gonna trust myself and Ash, obviously, like over the night over the course of the next few years. Not say I'm not gonna ask for help for things, because I do ask for help for things now, and we you know we know what we can do and what we can't, but I'm not gonna be buying every single business book that comes out and not listening to every single guru about things because I I can't. The mental overload for it, there is only so much space I've got in my brain. And not everybody telling you something is right, not everything's right for you, for your business. Like they're not in it, they're not living it. Yeah, and and I and that telling you about reading the book a week. I would give anything to be able to do that. But when I've got a one-year-old who just fucking crawls everywhere, and then I've got a ten-year-old who wants my attention. I'm lucky if I get a page a week. I think you need like an audio book, you're fine for me, do you know? Yeah, I do. I I I've done I've got two of them, I've not even listened to. Yeah, but no, it's good. And I think people need to listen to that. I think that's because self-care, yeah, as a business owner, like I I go to the gym in the morning, and that that helps my brain. Like with having ADHD, it helps we put everything into like sections. Yeah. Oh, it it it just sets the day off, right? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So obviously, try and wrap things up, but I want to know quickly like what's the plans for Murder in the next couple of years? What what are you what are you looking to do? World domination. World domination. I mean, listen, we it we do work with US partners at the moment that are amazing. I think for us, I think we'd definitely like to explore that further because the US is such a great market for us. Is there more opportunity over there than there is here? Um, I wouldn't necessarily say more opportunity. I'd say there's definitely a big budget, like, and I think that's no word of a lie. Like the UK budgets compared to what people pay for PR in the US is very different, and that's just the way it is, and it's unfortunate. But yeah, I I think the US is definitely a market. Do you would you see yourself moving over there? I wouldn't necessarily say moving over there permanently at this point. I think we're quite happy going back and forth, you know. I would be fucking December. We're going in September. We tend to do it in a bolt, so we'll like do like New York and then come back do it, but this time we're doing New York and LA because we've got partners that we can speak to in in both cities and nice little trip out there. But um, I'm I'm free in September. If we need anyone to carry the bags in. Do you know what? I've always wanted to do that. Give myself a chance. No, I I I think it's incredible what you two have built. Um I think you're a credit to co-founders, and I'm not just saying that because I've I've had the pleasure of working with you, I've had the pleasure of watching your business grow. I've also had the pleasure of you being a friend. So when I've had tough times, I've been able to call you, we just had rants, haven't we? Yeah. It's been nice. Three-minute long voices. Three-minute long voices. That is the way forward, I'm telling you. What advice would you give to anyone? So let's say I come to you, uh, you hear this and I think I want to go into PR. What's the biggest piece of advice you're gonna give me? Buckle up. And I'm I say that being honest. Like I I do. And I think it depends what kind of what you want to do in PR. If you want to be working in a PR agency and you wanna, you know, be the day-to-day, then that's fine. But I think if you wanna be a PR agency or PR founder, I think you've got to be prepared that you're gonna be mentally on a lot. Yeah, yeah. And that's just the way it is. You know, you're dealing with an active news media cycle all the time. But I love it. I wouldn't do anything and I don't think I really could do anything else at this point. I think even if I tried not to, the skills that I have and everything that I would try and do would still bring me back to PR. But yeah, I'd I'd say would you would you say that buckle up? Yeah, yeah. Don't be naive to think that it's not hard work, because it is, but you know, the rewards hard work and reward, innit? That's it, and I think it depends if you want to you want to run your own business, it's the same across the board, buckle up. Yeah, someone said someone said to me, uh, what advice would you give me for starting up a business? I said, don't. Run and run. No, uh it makes me laughing if people go, you're smashing it. Oh, those three words I have. I'm smashing my head against a fucking brick wall every single night because either someone's not paid or someone's told me they're gonna start and they haven't, or someone's done this or someone's done that. But then social media is fantastic for showing people what they want to see. Yeah. But no one sees the sleepless nights and the tears and the until they do it themselves. But but I think another piece of advice as well, something that I've definitely had to learn, and I'm still learning, is patience. Like you've got to be patient that however woo-woo it sounds like whatever's meant to be for you is gonna be. And I think put in the hard work, be a decent person, don't be an arsehole, and just be patient that it's all gonna work out. And obviously do the fucking work as well. Like don't rely on the fact that everything happens for a reason. It happens when you like Kim K said, get off your ass and work. But be patient that if you're putting in the good work and you you know, we've been going five, six years, we're up against agencies that have been going 15. Like, sometimes it's so easy to compare yourself to people and look at like their journeys or look at where they are, look at the clients they're getting, and think, why isn't it me? Yeah, and it's like shit, but like what is it? Um FIFA's the joy of comparison or something like that. Oh, FIFA's the comparison. Yeah, comparison is the thing. Yeah, it's like when I told people about this, I they said, Are you gonna record it? Yeah, and you could see people going. I was like, Well, I've got to start somewhere, and I've been guilty in the past of running and just fucking running into the fire and then going, Why did I do that? Yeah. And that's that's the biggest thing. If you start comparing yourself to everyone else, you just take away your own happiness, don't you? Yeah, you do. You just you just end up all it does is it chews into what you could be doing. Like I've learned now that, well, if I can't control it, I can't fucking control it. But what is the point in getting stressed? Of course, it's I say all this, I'm probably the most stressed person in the fucking world. Like, I lose my shit about seven times a day. And Sean, look at it, like, you've literally just been on there and told everyone to be dead calm. But I think as well, there's something there's definitely something in me and Ash certainly do it, is like curating your own happiness. Like if there's people like say on your socials or think that is gonna make you feel like shit about yourself, then don't follow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're an asshole. It's your responsibility, like be responsible for your own happiness, yeah, yeah. Like and don't let anybody else control that. And we had it before where I've said to Sean shit, I should post this. And she's like, fucking, just post it. Just post it a million times, yeah. Just post it, like just get on with it and be happy. Yeah, I suppose. Like, yeah, don't be naive, but just start and do it. Well, I heard someone say something once if nothing changes, then nothing changes. I think that Ashley Rudd. No, don't give it too much credit. No, right, so uh thank you very much for coming on board. Uh I will get Ash, uh, who's literally sat over there. She's my little cameraman. I am gonna get Ash on here soon because I want to hear from her side of it as well. Yeah. Because I've known you, I want to hear Ash because she's and and if anyone's listening to this, please follow the guys on their socials, on LinkedIn, Moda PR, they are fantastic. And if you're looking for a really good PR company, I would no disrespect to anyone I know who's got one, but I wouldn't recommend anyone else personally. Don't come to me with five and two quid. I can't help you. I've actually got a question for a question for you after this. No, guys, thank you very much for joining us today. Uh, we'll see you soon, and hopefully, I might even be able to get Jen to co-host uh an episode with me in the future. Would you be up for that? Of course I would. Would you? Just get the beers out. Oh, well, that's loads of beers there, mate. And the rum. Uh no, right, guys. Uh, we'll be back very soon for another episode. Um, feel free to follow us at Business Life Another Pollocks. And uh yeah, Jen, thank you very much for coming on board. No worries, thank you for having me. Not a problem. All right, thanks, guys. See you soon. Bye-bye.