The Burnout Lie: Why Outworking Your Problems Will Kill Your Business

In this episode, Katie shares her journey from high-stress corporate roles to building a business focused on mental health and burnout prevention. 

We explore the impact of stress on the brain, the importance of self-awareness, and practical strategies to build resilience. In this episode, Katie Lehman shares her journey through burnout, the importance of understanding the root causes of health issues, and how breathwork and mindset can transform personal and professional life. 

Discover practical insights on wellness, leadership, and self-awareness. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Business Life and Other Bollocks. I'm your host, Mike Dunn. Now, today's guest is someone I find personally quite extraordinary. Um, we were told a massive lie in the business world. If you work harder, sleep less, uh and grind yourself into the dirt, you'll win. Uh, we wear 80 hour a week caps, like a badge of honour almost, and we celebrate exhaustion on LinkedIn like it's incredible. But the reality is it's not always like that. Now, today's guest is for me living proof that running a business, uh sorry, running yourself into the ground isn't actually a business strategy, and contrary to belief, you don't get a medal for it. In Katie's own words, she spent over 20 years building a career before finally launching the business she'd worked towards for years, only for success to nearly cost her everything. Now I know there's gonna be some people that hear that and think straight away, oh I can relate to this, so buckle up because this is gonna be a very hard-hitting episode, I think. Now she helps business owners expand their capacity instead of simply working harder. Um, she also thinks it's a bit mad, which I agree with that. We've normalised entrepreneurs trying to figure out everything alone, as I know. So whilst while the world's while the world's highest performers surround themselves with coaches, mentors, and people who challenge them. Katie, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Ah, you're more than welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Ah, yes. So for those of you wondering, me and Katie actually went to school together. Um she's a year older than me, even though she looks about five years younger than me. Fucking grey hairs don't bet for themselves. Um you can't dye a beard if I did. I'd look beard. Someone actually well someone actually got me beard die for Secret Santa once, and that fucking really rattled me.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

It's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, I like the salt and pepper look with a little bit. Absolutely. It's not Mike and uh Mike and his technical at beard. That's the way I see it. Um so yeah, Katie, welcome to the show. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on board. Um, I mean what I said before, I think your story is very extraordinary. I think what you're doing is is incredible. Um, one of the reasons I was really excited to get you on is because we've already touched on it. I myself have been at burnout stage, and we're gonna talk about your story um how you got there. But you are your mission now is to try and help people, as many people as possible, correct? So, for those listening, for those who don't know you, tell everyone a little bit about what like what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Thank you for having me. Thank you for that introduction. That's all right. Um yeah, I am tired of normalizing surviving. I'm tired of it. And I don't think that we I think society is kind of built up for that like badge of honour, like do more, smash this, achieve that, which again is great. I'm extremely ambitious, but not at the not at the detriment to your own self-abandonment because it's not sustainable. You know, people are talking about mental health and wellness and things and which is great, right? Awareness is the start, but what happens after awareness, and it's taking it that next level, not to a point where you feel like you've got to totally unravel your whole entire life and go through intense therapy and it come across in that way. The way that I've altered and um developed my own method is to attune into the person because we're in society we are put in so many different boxes it's bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

And I'm I'm trying to empower that you don't want you to get to my place where I got to, where I felt like I had no other choice than to leave the business or get to a point where I felt like I couldn't come back from that and I had to sell it. That might not mean that that's not the way to go, but ultimately helping business owners not get to that point of burnout because it's a hell of a lot harder to recover from than it is to prevent. So if we can prevent prevention's better than cure, right? For sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Because sometimes as business owners, and I I've been there, and anyone listening will know my story, um you're you're right, you're spot on. You are when you set into the world of being an entrepreneur, business owner, whatever you want to call it, everyone sees these posts, gotta work 80 hours a week, sacrifice everything. You can't go to this, you can't go to that. That's how you get there. Elements of it I understand, but there are parts of it now I look at and think that's absolute bollocks. I used to miss parties. I used to sacrifice time with my daughter thinking I've gotta be on LinkedIn, send these messages because that's what was sort of embedded into me.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

100% survival.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, and it was just the biggest load of bollocks because now I realise after five o'clock no one's interested. Sometimes, okay, I'll reply to an email, but I will never sacrifice time with my kids ever again. That's the most important thing. My child my family come first before anything, and I've had to learn like yourself the the hard way. But we're here to talk about your journey because I think this is I think it's incredible. So you're 19 years old, right? Um I was you were no years ago. I know, yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I don't feel old enough to say that.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I know. I look back now and I think fuck me, like I speak to people I see in school, like yourself, and I think we're so fucking old now. But that's part of it. So let's go back to when you were 19 years old. You started at a quite high stress target-driven job. Tell us what tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

I'll go a little bit earlier than that. So I was never that kid at school that um knew that I want I wasn't that little girl that wanted to be a nurse or a doctor or a vet. I didn't I didn't want to be any of those things. I just wanted to be successful and I always remember like loved working with a till. And I probably disappointed my mum and dad a hell of a lot when I was a kid because I was like, I just want to work in a pub. Or I want to work in Mackeys. No, it's tragic.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

No, but it's not sorry, just to cut you off. I actually interview more people that have worked in McDonald's than anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Interesting, I love that, and what I know now was that what I wanted was that like human interaction, yeah, yeah, but also that just that like human exchange was what I wanted, but I loved working with Tills. I always played with my till when I was a kid. So when I was 13, mates were hanging around the park. I was like, great, but I'm gonna go and get a Saturday job. So I remember walking through town on a Saturday, got the bus into town when the buses were like 20p. I'm that old.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

You can't even pay with cash anymore on a bus.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Don't even get to a rever. Yeah. Fuck that, mate, get your card out.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I see ya. And um I did, I told a little white lie, and I said that I was 15 when I was 13, and I got a satisfying some hairdressers, um, started working around, and then I got a job in a different one, and then they said I started like, oh, I could be a hairdresser, but I never wanted to be a hairdresser for the rest of my life. I wanted a brand, I wanted like Tony and Guy, I wanted products, I wanted shops, I wanted this, that and the other. I was got had to be a hairdresser. Anyway, as I was in school, I was already they were already putting me through my training, and then um got into a relationship and took a different path and went and got a job basically, um, without going into too much detail about that. And like I just need to watch that because I don't want to slag anybody off.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Well, listen, at the end of the day, this is your story. You you say as much as you want or as little as you want.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Someone said to me, Oh, do you want to be a hairdresser? I thought it's a shit job. And I was quite impressionable. Um and so I was like, Oh, okay. So I went and got a job where my mum worked um in a mortgage company. Watched it, worked my way up really, really quickly doing different jobs, and I was very much one of these kids where I was like, Oh right, great, I've mastered that. What's next? What's next? And there wasn't anything else for me to do. So anyway, over those years until I got was 19, within three years, I worked my way up really, really quickly. And then yeah, found this job advertisement on totaljobs.com at the point where I was engaged to be married and I was going to be moving down to Oxford and being an army wife, all the things. Um he uh yeah, I applied for this job and it was like mortgage underwriter, Milan, Barcelona, London, all around Europe, and I was like, oh send me CV, whatever. Didn't think anything of it. Um because I was just hungry to progress and like learn and like be successful. And um, because no one I don't think anyone really dreams of being a mortgage like in the mortgage industry. Uh I will I've never come across the book.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

But you might but you people could listen to this and be inspired by it. Maybe they might they might as well just go fuck that.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

But that's the beautiful thing about life, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

That's it. And um and then anyway, three or four weeks later I was eating my tea, still living with my mum and dad, and my mum said, Oh, hey, there's a there's a posh guy on the phone for you. Hello, is that Katie Josh? And I was like, Yeah. Anyway, got off with the job and I was at the overnight I was um self-employed contractor working all around the UK and Euro. My first job was in the middle of London City in this massive bank auditing. It was literally when the financial crash was happening in 2008. Learned shitloads and I'd yeah, worked all the way around Europe, auditing different banks' processes and eating out every night with you know, on 300 quid a day. I was having a lovely time.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, yeah. It's mad though, isn't it? Because people will hear that and go, Oh fucking hell. But that's when things start, isn't it? Because you get embedded into things so quickly.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I remember my first job in sales, I remember I worked at MBA and I was a I was a on the old like recruitment side of it, I was a part um I was contracted if you like with Randstad. And I can remember earning a fortune there, and I loved it. But then the ugly side of it was I was away, I was working long hours.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And I think any job that's high intensity like that, when you start young, you just take it for granted, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And that's when it starts. So obviously you're you're going all around Europe, you you know, you're looking back, did you know, did that early environment sort of warp your definition of success before you even had a chance to figure out what you were like outside of work?

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Love that question. Um it made me see the world. Yeah. I remember my sisters used to take the piss out of me for eating sea bass and you know, tasting a wine or I got served at a table. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

And then 20 years old, oh I can't taste that child never. Yes, it's like looking at a blue wicked guy, what the fuck are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Basically, it's not it's not Blossom Hill, is it? Do you know what I mean? Me saying me and Grisho, they were like, Yeah, I forgot you have you two sisters haven't.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yeah, are they one older, one younger?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

I'm the younger.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

You're the youngest, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Um so yeah, it opened my eyes to a lot. I saw more than what I would see just working in offices, you know, locally and stuff, but it definitely got me accustomed to a certain type of salary, which yeah, I didn't save a load, I lived a lot, went on all day whenever I wanted to, and so you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I get right, so I I I understand that because there's I've looked back and I've said I should have a house by now, but then I can't then memories are there once only.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

And that and that is what I tell everyone is is live, you you always live within your means, right? That's number one. But then the more money you earn, the more money you're gonna spend. Exactly. And get it, some people are savvy with their money and go, Oh, I've got this, and like you do you. Yeah, I fucking love travelling.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

It's just getting the balance, sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

We've been like this year alone, we've I've been to I've had the chance to go to Prague, I've been to Nice, my brother's wedding, I went to Penner Dome. Oh my god, 10 out of 10 wouldn't do it again. Um, and then we're going to and then we're going to Rhodes for a family holiday in two weeks. So it's like everyone's saying, Oh, you've got a really expensive year. It's like, but I've seen places that I've never been before, so it's like, do I want my money to go on that the grind and you know this and that? I'm still able to do everything I want to do, but them memories that I agree with you, you only get them once, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Going back to that though, did you feel it you sort of lost your way outside of it because you were so you obviously throw yourself in at 19 years old. You think about a lot of 19-year-olds now that are in uni.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

You took that leap.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

My mum and dad were splitting up. So all this happened at a really interesting time because I then the the the I was engaged, like I said, the wedding got called off and I started this job. He went to Iraq, he was in the army. My mum and dad were splitting up, there was a shitload of change going on, and I was like, I'm not choosing to live with my mum and dad. So I chose to rent an apartment with my friend while she was in uni. So the weeks that I could choose not to work, she was at Chester Uni, we lived together. I was kind of having the uni lifestyle, but not in uni, like I was going on all on all the Netball socials and with them and everything, and I was having like this best of if I'm earning a shit ton of money, and then I can have weeks off whenever I wanted and just like go out and just like have loads of fun. Um, so this the that whole transition period was incredibly difficult to navigate. Then the relationship ended, and then I continued working and then was single for a while, and then I met my now husband, yeah, yeah. And that's when I was like, I don't want to work away all the time, I don't want that. So I think it it didn't do me any harm, it helped me see a lot and it gave me opportunity to not, I think, if anything, when I reflect on it now, it's a great question again. It probably helped me not go into any type of darkness at that point in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I think about it now, it's one of two ways, can't you?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Because if you're out and about all the time and you're doing all this, yeah. It's like the story of the two twin brothers, right? They grow up want to be an alcoholic, want to be successful, they get asked the same question, why are you the way you are? And they have the same answer, my dad. My dad was an alcoholic. You gotta choose what you want to do. And I think the fact you were so young and you could you've obviously had a you've obviously always had this way of looking at life. Does that does that come from the parents? Does that come from the background if you don't mind me asking?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

No, I don't mind you asking. My dad, my mum was always at home. Um, she was a housewife until I mean I'm the youngest, so I was like maybe 12.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

I rode horses, I I had a I had an amazing childhood, I say this. I never went without my dad was self-employed, we went out every Sunday, but emotionally, probably not the best environment. There was like mum and dad didn't get on, there's trauma, all the things. So I feel like for me, in my experience, I've spent a lot of my life being really misunderstood, and something to prove to perform. So it kind of gave me that drive. Yeah, yeah. Well, I am gonna fucking do it. Don't tell me I can't, I'm gonna do it. Don't tell me no, tell me why.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

I'm very much one of those are people that say you can't do it, the ones that haven't be asked trying.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And that's why I say to everyone, it's like you get told you can't do something by someone that hasn't tried it themselves.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

And that's fine, but I always so if someone says that to me, you can't do that, my answer is well, when did you try it?

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And if they say I haven't, I say, Well, how the fuck do you know that?

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

And that's not me being an arsehole. Yeah, it's just a genuine way of looking at life. Yeah, I know that all the time, you can't do it. You can't work from home, you can't be you can't be self-employed. Yeah, you know, it's like, well, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

I used to get like, what you're changing jobs again. I was like, Yeah, well, I've I've literally exhausted what I can do here, and I don't just want to settle, I'm hungry. Yeah, yeah. Um, but now I know the more I've obviously sort of gone into things, there was definitely a performance, like a survival. There was it was never gonna be enough.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, well, I was gonna say, yeah, you spent two you spent over two decades in a world that was built entirely on targets, volume, pipelines. Um what does that mean that kind of the what does living on that kind of constant high alert adrenaline loop do to a person's brain over 20 years? I mean, how do you distinguish between actual ambition and just being addicted to stress? I'm full of a question. I've spent a good week.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I love it. And the thing is, right, I am extremely ambitious now, like I said. I think I said at the start, but I will not self-sacrifice. But there's also a balance between that in self-sacrificing and staying small out of fear. There's a very fine line and being able to sort of like cultivate this connection with myself that can check myself and catch myself, but then also have my own coach to catch me as well. Because I'm as much as I'm a coach now, I still have my own blind spots. I've got no ego about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, yeah. I've heard that by a few people. Everyone says if you're a business owner, you should have a coach. It's something I'm looking into at the moment um because I believe that you everyone has to unpack especially stress, especially high level. I mean, I'm not in your job, but I've been in sales and I've had to have sales. Well, sales is it's the most I always say you'll never find a job that will t that will t take you to that limit more than sales or anything to do with numbers where you've got to be targeted. Sorry, I interrupted you there, Gwen.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

No, no, you didn't, you're fine. Target, and especially when you've got that corporate sort of pressure, pressure, pressure, more, more, more. Is it's just a culture that gets developed. You know, even when you look back at how we conditioned them when we're kids, more is more. You need to do more, do more, do more. It's like, well schools teach you how to regulate, to rest, to recharge. Do you know what I mean? Like they don't do any of that. So going back to your question is what's the impact of that high output? That the impact can absolutely be immeasurable success, aka the house, the cars, the holidays, the clothes, the gram, you know, what it's all looking like externally. Unless you're able to have that other side prolonged without any sort of recharging or any sort of tools to regulate, you are eventually gonna burn out. It kind of started really when I was 29, uh, 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Oh, really? Yeah, that's when it really started. Did you feel like with that that when you were that age you could feel something was going on, but you were just so conditioned to be like, I've got to do this, I've got to do that?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I feel like so my journey, right? My journey of seeing life differently and the world differently, myself differently, all happened. Nothing to do with career. It happened, I had a miscarriage in 2016, and I it was my literally my worst, worst nightmare come true. I was never one of those women that was like, oh my god, pregnancy is amazing. I was like, it looks fucking weird. Like that you're growing something inside you. Yeah, if I could pay for us, my mindset was if oh my god, if I could pay for surrogate award, literally that's it. You literally sound like my wife when I first got with it.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

She was like, fuck I look because I was saying, but she charm was like, I don't know if I want kids. Yeah, and I obviously I come from a big family, so I was like, Well I do, but I always respect her. Yeah, and like you, once again, not to cut over you, we had we had our daughter uh uh ten years ago, then unfortunately we lost uh three along the way. So I I completely said and I'm so sorry you have to go through that.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Thank you, and me too for you. But I always used to even a year when I got pregnant with my daughter in 2017, I purposely waited for a while. And even a year after, I people used to get really fucking triggered when I say this, and and I and I say this from my experience because it was a reframe. I'm grateful it happened because something fucking woke me up right at that at that point. I was I slipped into a really bad dose of PTSD afterwards. Um I remember we booked a holiday to Dubai and I remember one night just literally sitting in my living room with J and my husband, and all of a sudden I was like I was I literally felt like shit, the world's gonna end. And I was like, and he was just looked at me and he was like, Hey, what's the line? I was just watching TV. And I was like, I don't know what, I just feel like something's gonna go, I feel like something's about to happen. Obviously, that's anxiety. Um oh my god, I was seeing a therapist. I nearly never got on the plane. I did get on the plane, I cried the whole way there. And the first day, oh my god, it was just awful. And like Jim's like we lived go on holiday, like that's what we do, we travel. And I remember we'd been there all day, and it was the first night we were sat in this Italian restaurant, and I was just like I was literally just shaking. I was like, fuck me. And he went, Hey, what's wrong? And I went, I just want to go home. I just wanted to go home, and he literally carried me to the hotel room and I woke up the next and rang the girl who booked our holidays, and she was like, I can get you a flight in two days, otherwise it's gonna cost you about four grand or something. And I was like, I haven't got four grand. And then I thought, well, if we're going home in two days, I can stay for another five or four. Do you know what I mean? It was like, well, no, it's not gonna it's not gonna beat me. So we stayed and we did end up having a nice time, and that was kind of like the catalyst. And the reason why it this was why they started my journey was for me is because as much as I was scared about something, I went to the doctors and they were like, Yeah, we're gonna put you on beta blockers, and I was like judgment. For me, a lot of my family have been on antidepressants at already been suicide in my family. And I was like, Well it's not like a a massive There's not a lot of proof there that that's the right way or a way that's gonna be worth it.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And this is why when people say I don't want to trigger people, it's like no no people are gonna get triggered whether you say but the but the problem you got is though is No, you are gonna trigger people whether you say what they want to hear or what they don't. That is just the uh I've you could I say this, you could be the nicest fucking person in the world and people will hate you. Why do you think people root for the bad guy in a film?

unknown 21:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Because it's their other side, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a mirror at some point. If you're triggered by something, it's because there's something generally within you that maybe you might need looking at. So anyway, I spent that nine months, I think. That's when I started look looking into like alternative therapies and stuff. And anyway, I I got pregnant by choice then in the following February. And I was like, I'd gone from the girl that was so scared of hospitals and all of that. Worst nightmare come true. So I had a lot of proof, right? That pregnancy's scary or yeah, underlying proof. But I was like, fuck that. I'm not gonna spend the next nine months in this pregnancy stressed out and scared. So I made a choice and I ended up um trying to have a home birth. It didn't happen in the end, but fine. But I went totally 360 because I chose. I chose to learn from that situation. I chose to make something of it. Um and I ended up having a beautiful pregnancy. It was the best I've ever felt. Um not the birth I wanted, that's another story, but I tried and yeah, I felt great.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah. Sharm wanted two home births, both time c-section.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, I had a c-section.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

She was like, fuck's sake. But like you say, like we we had Scarlet 10 years ago, we didn't think we'd have any more. And then Parker came along, and you know, he's like a fucking bundle, just a chubby little blonde. When he was born, Charles melded him, she went, Why does he look like your fucking dad? Just look like me, dad. He had this old man's face sorry, not old dad. He had a he had like a like an older man's face on a baby's body, but he was he's oh you're you'll be he's beautiful. I love that view, but yeah, it's you know, look, it is hard, like any time when you watch, and I'm sure Jim will relate to it, when you watch your wife go through something so traumatic, you almost have a level of helplessness for sure. Like, what can I do that's gonna stop this? And and the reality is it's unfortunately, no matter what you say or how you act, or sometimes how you plug into someone, you're not gonna make it, you haven't got all the right answers. No, so sometimes you just need to let people be, let them cry, let them come to you and say, I'm sorry. And I I just learned that what I've if I if helping her is giving her space in silence, then that's what I need to do. Um because I've got ADHD, I'm always like, what's up, what's up, what's up, what's up? Yeah, and sometimes she'll be sad, I go, you're right. She's like, Mike, I'm fine. Yeah. But I'm trying to do, I'm still trying to navigate my way through figuring out how to approach things. Interesting. So yeah, I I'm honestly just a book of shit.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

I don't like that self-talk, Mike, that you've got there. I'm gonna, I'm definitely gonna I'm just gonna go on that and go, you don't need to talk like that. Oh, I know everyone says that.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I just I just try and find a funny and everything. I know, it's that's not a bad thing. So the next thing is I've got to ask you here, uh, why am I fucking well everyone's watching this thinking, does he not know what he's doing? Um so this is something that someone else in 2019 you co-founded your own brokerage. Uh that's the ultimate dream for most corporate players, isn't it? You've got your own business, you've worked your way, I'm gonna do it. And I set my business up in 2020.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

It was literally yeah, six months before.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Yeah. When you got the keys to the office, uh, did you genuinely believe you finally made it and the pressure would ease up, or did you immediately start moving the goalposts?

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Unfortunately, and this is the sneaky thing about burnout, those pictures on that day it was open in the office, I was probably at my lowest. You would never know. If you were to ever find those pictures on Instagram, which they'd be there, you wouldn't have a clue. But Jim knew what was going on behind the closed doors.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

How did he feel when he knew you were about to open this knowing that?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

I was in that survival, I was like, Well what's happening? I'm just busy. I just need to do this. Like we were doing like 25, 30k months as a as a new brokerage.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, yeah. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

It what yeah, we were literally flying and that's when I knew uh that's when it was like COVID came along as well. Well no, COVID had already been.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Oh god, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

No, no, don't worry. So in 2019 we both, me and my business partner, we started the um started the business and it was very much for me do I launch the business or do I have another baby? Business or baby. I was like, do the business, do that, then I'll get the baby. Which hasn't happened, but you know, another story. But we launched it from our bedrooms, he lived in on the Wirral, I was in Chester, and then COVID hit and it was like, oh my god, six months in, no pillow, all of that. Anyway, went into hyper survival, right? Even more so because you're doing a new you're starting a new business, you're kind of already in survival, there's a lot more output. COVID hit, and then you know, a few months after they the whole stamp duty got lifted, and then boom, all of a sudden there's all this business which is amazing, right? I wasn't ready to handle all of that because I still had a young daughter at home. I didn't want to have a business to take over the world and forget being a mum. Yeah, because for me being a mom was the most important job, and it is now. And again, some women will go, Oh, you can have it all. You can have it all, but I don't think society actually educates women or empowers them to know actually know being a mom is and being a parent is fundamentally one of the most important things you could.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

It's the it's the only job where no matter how shit you are on a day, they they they still need you.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

They're their priority.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, I and and even as a dad, I mean we launched in January 2020. Wow, three months before, yeah, yeah. Nothing, no furlough, no thing. And I used to say to my clients, I'll work for free.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

And then I actually came across TikTok at the time, and I got paid I got paid to do TikTok videos. Did you? Yeah, yeah. Cringy as fuck, but honestly, so I think you did what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

That's it. I had to say I'd say now if I have to go and work back in a pub, all right. I'll do anything. I'm not, I haven't, yeah, you've got to do what you've got to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Absolutely. And and I think um that what you said before was similar to me with COVID. It was the best thing that ever happened to me because I had to learn straight away. My nan passed away January 27th, and the business launched January 6th. I was incredibly close to my land. No, no, no bereaving time off. We had a first client on board by Febru, second one by March, and then we had two more in April. We used to take a staff member on us to be with our officers, and then COVID it. And I think looking back, even though it was such a weird time, um, it was I'm grateful for it. And I know there's people that lost homes and loved ones, and I don't mean it in that context. I mean from a business owner's standpoint, I was able to learn more about that survival mode than just everything going tickety-boo. Yeah. Would we be in a different place if it happened? Probably. Yeah, but what's the point? But but exactly, yeah, it's the flip side, right? Yeah, and that's so uh it's the beautiful thing about um looking at things on the other side as if it didn't happen. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. That's what my wife says. So hindsight is a wonderful thing, but on the plus side, I learned more about me and how strong I was. You know, I had a lot of like I had a lot of like backlash for my old boss. He was a he was an absolute prick online, and we had a lot of things, posts about us, and I just kept going. Yeah, kept going, and I kept pro and I and it was like every time I didn't think I could do something, I just kept saying I'm gonna do it anyway. Yeah, and I just kept on that, and that was it. And yeah, we've had some fucking big setbacks, you know, we've nearly lost everything. Like I said before, we've been at the point of what are we doing? But that is where your survival skills have to come in, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah, for sure. And that's where with this whole survival piece we can look at it in the frame and be grateful for that we've been able to achieve the things we've been able to achieve. But the problem is is that that constant output or being in that constant space of survival is going to catch up with you at some point, whether you're 32, 29, 64, 44. It's not sustainable. No end of story. And burnout doesn't necessarily mean that you then suffer a breakdown, basically, which is what can happen. But it also shows up in your health that we just again normalize whether you're not sleeping, you're putting weight on, your libido's gone. Do you know what I mean? Like these are all big things that actually, oh shit, oh, didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I think I think you'll agree with me because I know you're you love your gym, you've been to your fitness. I I was like when when COVID kind of ended, I was like, I look back at myself, I was like three and a half stone heavier, right? And well, this is it. So I went back to the gym. Yeah, and takeaways and stuff. Yeah, well, that's another conversation, another story. Don't start me on that one, but yeah, I I I lost my shit with that because a lot of people use COVID to get in shape, and a lot of people were just drinking, and and I think with us, we I did turn to that way. Um I was just in the garden every day, I was doing TikTok videos and getting paid for it. It was a piece of piss, right? But then I went back to the gym. I said to my wife, I was like, I'm going back to the gym and I need to get in shape. So, you know, fast forward six of eight years, you know, and freestone lighter, it's probably the best thing I ever did. And I think that moment of I'm gonna really start eating better, I'm gonna start talking more, I'm gonna start reading more. I I noticed there was like a pressure shift in my brain. It felt like something I've got to tap and just slowly, because I'm a creature of habit and I'm an extreme. So if I want to go to the gym every day, I'm gonna go to gym. If I want to drink, I'm gonna have a drink, so I've never got a middle.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Got you.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

But then what happened was because I was doing it every day, you just felt this little bit of pressure, Ease. And it was felt amazing. I say to everyone all the time, do you go to the gym? No, can't afford it, but you can afford £100 on takeaways a month, right? So exactly, and that's yeah, and I and I don't mean to put anyone down listening to that. There's a chap who goes to our in our work, and I don't mean I even buy this, he said, I haven't got time. And I said, I'm I'm sorry. I was like, I'm not gonna be full Molly May. I was like, but I run a business and I've got two kids and I've got you guys. I went, You I said you go to the pub after work about an hour. I said, You can go and lift the weight for an hour.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Exactly. And here's I'll I'll add to that with some science, right? When you're in that high stress output, I'm gonna explain a bit of physiology, right? When you're in that high output, high vo high focused, stressful survival state, your your vision is very tunnel vision. Because if you if you think about it when let's say that we our ancestors, right? This is totally going off on a bit of a tangent, but the science of it I'm giving an analogy to it. So our ancestors may have been living in caves, right? And there was bears and lions and shit about, right? And if they potentially were also or in our days now, let's say you were going to be attacked, what'd you do? You go quiet, right? Your body needs to pump you full of adrenaline and cortisol and everything to get shit done. But also back in our ancestors, is that they would have needed to flood our systems with the same chemicals in order to run, to stay high alert. If there was a a rustle in the the rustle in the bushes over here or over here, you get hyper-aware of what's going on and you become very hypersensitive to the situations around you. Very similarly to when you're in business and when you've got to survive, you've got to make this work, you need to make the sales, you need to do all these things. Your vision goes very tunnel vision because it's like you get locked in, and if I need to run, I need to go there, or if I need to achieve that target, you go there. When you're able to then calm the system down and alter your approach, what happens is is rather that tunnel vision just being very sort of locked in and focused, what happens is that your point changes and you're physically able to see more. Which is why on holiday, sometimes when you're able, after maybe two or three days of being on hold, it might take people generally that long to just like calm down a little bit. They get a bit more philosophical, they get a bit more Do you know what? I haven't thought about such and such for a while. Things start dropping in because their capacity has increased because their actual physical, their body isn't being pumped as much full of that cortisol and adrenaline is starting to calm down, which makes them be able to see things more clearly. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yeah, 100%. I love that. And when I so talk about like fitness and stuff, when I go away on a holiday, I'll still go to the gym on holiday. And uh, you know, my wife started her fitness journey. I'm I'm I know she remembered saying this, I'd say about a year ago, she really said, I'm gonna start, and you know, she's lost two stone, she's the best, she she's obsessed with the gym. And you can watch it in people the way they look, the way they feel. And I know there's people I know that take the Manjaro and it helps them. And and and I I say, Look, whatever's gonna make you feel better about you, you do it. Don't let other people get into your brain and say you shouldn't be doing that, you shouldn't be. I get it, I get people saying you're gonna get lose weight for it and you're gonna put it back on. But if people want to feel good about themselves, let them be.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

True, true. I'm gonna challenge that only very slightly because I agree with you to a certain extent, but then actually, when we're not very resilient, we think that we haven't got we're not gonna achieve.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Because we, our society, first of January, for example, right? I'm gonna go to the gym seven days, I'm gonna totally change my life for seven days, and it's like you're fucking setting yourself up to fail. Yeah, yeah. This is about starting things slow. Yeah. But what is it, the hare and the tortoise? Yeah, the tortoise ends up running the race, it's literally the same thing. But if we're able to help people build their resilience and their awareness and their own empowerment to go, do you know what? I fucking did that today. I could do something better tomorrow. Or empower people by choices. That's my approach, that's my lens to go Munjaro is like generally is going to be the last resort, not the crutch to go to go to. It's not the go-to thing to do. It's like you're way more powerful than what you realise.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

So I I usually I went to a school the other day doing a talk to children with ADHD and autism, and I said, When you don't get something right the first time, it's like lifting a weight for the first time. Yeah, you don't do it right though, do you? Your form's maybe a bit off. Repetition comes in, you get stronger, you get more aware, you learn new workouts. I say it's like when you start learning to walk. When you watch, like watching my son learning to walk at the moment, he's taking a few little steps, right? But he gets up, does it again, gets up, does it again. I said when you're a child, you start learning to do things systematically because that's what we are taught to do. And I was like, and that's the way life is. I was like, you do it once and you may not do it right. You do it a second time, it might be a bit better. I was like, and it's just repetition and it's not wanting to give up, is it?

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Business. First ever the first proposal I ever sent in business, fucking hell. Oh god, you could tell I had dyslexia, there were spelling mistakes. I had to pay, I had like all my values at the bottom, and I had the the value of what was it? It was like quality, transparency, something else, but I put the one thing twice, and I was like, Well, I said that consistency was put twice. I went, Well, I'm consistent. Yeah, if you find, there you go. So it's like you you've got to, I think you have got to fail a few times for sure, and you think you've got to make a few bad shit decisions. And I know we're we're here to talk about burnout, but I think it's all relatable.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

It is relatable because, and all this mindset is incredibly healthy, but if you're talking to somebody that is on the floor, would you be able to, would you have the ability to have that mindset in September last year?

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Oh my god. Um so I I'm gonna bit deep and there's people gonna be listening to this that will pull up fucking out. So September last year, I hit rock bottom, 8th of September, I was done. Ready to come, I was ready to kill myself. I phoned the Samarans last minute, they've been amazing. Um and I was still going to the gym, but I wasn't there mentally. Yeah, you do because I was just I was walking sort of into oblivion. Yeah, I went to the gym and I left and I got to the office and I thought I'm done. I just I I don't to this day I I it's all a bit of a blur, but I it's fine. Look, I talk about it and I want to talk about it because it's important that we normalize it's gonna sound weird, that we normalize these moments of fuck, I am done. Because there's people out there who don't get to that stage and it's not nice. I've lost a couple of friends in the last 12 months from suicide, and it's incredibly hard to hear because you feel selfish that you were there and you did and you've had that thought, but you can't, but then at the same time, I think, well, I came out the other side, so how can I help someone? And like you said before, we came on, can't help everyone. It starts with people wanting to help themselves, yeah, but we can't, right? You you if you could help every single person in the world felt like that, you would, but it it's you you can't.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

That's setting yourself up to fail. That's an unrealistic.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

And then what happens is is you get burnt out trying to help others, exactly, and that's where I was there's the self-abandonment piece, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Yeah, yeah. You know, you've got to check that you can have this sustainable success, but not abandon yourself in the process.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Do you know what I mean? And I've been there, yeah. Like there's been times I've been trying to help other people, and really I should have been helping me. Yeah. And okay, give me some a little bit of love for myself. I'll help that person, but then I'm I'm fucked myself.

unknown 38:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

I'm at home, like I'm fucking done in now. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

You're spent.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yeah, yeah. And I'm that well, who am I? I'm no good to anyone then, am I?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Exactly. Um and again, all all the and and do you know what? And sometimes even for entrepreneurs is someone like you, you've got like a depth of a of an awareness now. Maybe you've already had it, whatever it is, but the way you're talking today. And then a lot of people will be the same, and then you can also then have that layer of shame to be like, but I know all the things why why am I still feeling like this? Do you know what I mean? And and that's where it's like the way I work with people is to go, it's all right. The why, like, find out the why so that you kind of like connect in a lot of the dots in order for you to to go forward. Do you know what I mean? Because we're so when we're stressed and when we've got a lot on, we do feel powerless because we haven't got as much capacity. But think about think about that pint of water, juice, right? If you this isn't about giving you more capacity, this is about giving you tools so you can make a bigger glass, right? Because some of the things you can't not do, some of the things you can offload or or you know, um delegate to other people and this, that and the other, but if you've got this like inherent thing, it needs to be all me and I need to do everything and I'm the one and I'm this, it's like, okay, well let's look into why for that. But let's make that glass bigger because if your glasses near the top, if you've got you know, uh let's say you lose a business deal and your kids are kicking off and you've at shit today and you've not been able to for whatever reason, if you're taking everything that you haven't done and you take it as a self-criticism or a failure, and you start that self-chat that's really sort of is a big detriment, you're not gonna be able to have I'm not gonna be able to pour more juice into that cup without you overflowing.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

So it's almost like you're saying if you self-sabotage, then you're gonna affect the rest of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

It's the ripple effect. So if life happens to you and you're already operating at at like almost like a full pint glass, if you're already full and you're stressed out and you know you haven't got a lot left, and you're having one of those days or weeks or months, and like there's a lot going on, if you think about it, if if there's more things are gonna happen, you're gonna overload, that's when you're gonna blow, or you're gonna pop, or you're gonna react rather than respond, or you're gonna burn out, or you're gonna go, I'm fucking done. I I I I can't take anymore. Whereas having tools and practices and support to actually teach you how to maybe offload some of the juice that's in that class, so to give you more room to take on more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about letting go of everything and becoming Zen and being on a yoga map the rest of your life and giving everything up. No, no. We are supposed to thrive.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Do you do you think that because I feel like this is a conversation more people, I think more people are talking about burnout, stress, anxiety, depression now more than ever because it's such a well-spared bot. But do you feel like almost like we are we because we're told this is burnout, but this is how you deal with it. Like you said before about the antidepressants, then there are ways that people could be dealing with it. Do you feel like it's just this is the problem, here's the solution. NHS go, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Exactly. Burnout is incredibly, incredibly personal. Because what burns me out wouldn't burn you out. So then I could have shame because, well, I'm shit because it didn't burn Mike out or the other way around. I I can do something and make a choice about something, and you you can't because you're not supposed to, if that's not how you're built, then you could start feeling like, oh fucking hell, well, I'm I'm shit because I can't do what Katie's doing. And there's this outwardly comparison all the time. And when you don't have as much capacity, those thought processes of lack or victimhood, or you're not a you're not able to pivot in your business when you're drowning. You're not able to see clearly. Like I said before, you know, that tunnel vision when you're like trying to survive and keep everything afloat, and like you know, like if you tread in water, eventually you're gonna run out of energy. Yeah, right. Whereas if you've got tools and practices to help recharge you and build you back up, if something comes into the business, you can pivot because you've got that ability to be able to go and think clearly.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I think I think it's such an important thing to mention as well because I've known people that are fantastic business owners who have no longer got a business because they didn't know the way out.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

But and I and I and it's such a shame because this is what happens people build a business, the business might not do as well as they thought. I'm gonna close it. That's fine, right? But then sometimes you think all you needed was maybe a steer in the right direction. Support. And do you know what the biggest fucking killer of people's passion is? Social fucking media. Oh my god, look at that. Oh, they're on all their guys, oh my god, they're in that, oh my god, they're doing that, and the behind the scenes they are fucking drowning. And that's why I refuse to now just post about the glorious stuff. I want people to know when they lost a business, I want people. To know where I was. Yeah. Because you are watching celebrities or influencers living a life which they'll upload a video for 90 seconds, they're like, oh my god, but it took them 60 fucking takes to do. It's not a life.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

No, it's not. And it's not reality. And I think again, the whole point about burnout is it's a very physiological thing. There's something very chemical that's going on in the body, but there's also there's like a real big spiritual element to it as well, because also burnout can be that you're just not living a life that's built for you.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Yeah, yeah, true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

And I say this like entrepreneurship being a business owner, it's like friggin' personal development on crack.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

It can be friggin' brutal. Do you know why I'm gonna be straight?

SPEAKER_00 44:41

The word entrepreneur, I didn't even fucking know what it meant until someone said, Oh, you're an entrepreneur. And I went, what? I'm just this, I'm self-employed, I'm a business owner. I now say I was working sales, best thing I can do. And I actually say I'm a telemarketer. Yeah, yeah. Because they go, Really? Yeah, it's fucking ace. I would rather people think that I'm working on a row of desk making hundreds of calls than actually realise it because it gives me more power. If I say to someone I'm working telemarketing, they think I'm calling them while I'm watching the chase. But when I break it down, they go, Oh, it just gives me it gives me more of a story to tell. Which actually the LinkedIn mask, I call it. You've said anyone looked on your social media and pictures, the day you were opening your new office, you know, you wouldn't have had a clue that you you were dying inside by a choice with it. I know it's morbid, but I've been there, right? I remember when we moved into our office in Ellesmere Port, we had a two-story office, we were popping champagne off the fucking balcony, had a big party, and I remember every week thinking, I fuck it, this is not why I set this company report. But I got so deep into my own shit that I was like, how do I get out of it?

unknown 45:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

It cut breaking point, it took to the point. But you know, you we're founders, so yeah, we're as a founder, you're incredibly well. You can we do incredibly good though, we're masking the collapse. That's what we are. We mask the collapse, and we go, we've got to be here, we've got to set the presence high, we've got to be the guys on LinkedIn, on Instagram, people go, Fucking, I left lying. It's it's like crack, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

It's like John Caldwell said it. John Caldwell said he when he earned phones for you before he sold it for like 8 billion or whatever it was, he'd have a good deal and it'd be like crack, but then 10 minutes later, he would fall back again. It's such an imp he's such an incredible business owner, um, because he's just so raw and honest. But uh one thing I've got for you is who uh who were actually trying to protect with the mask is is it your clients, is it your business partner, or sometimes is it your own ego?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Everybody.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Everyone, everything because okay, but the other the other the part of the the confusion that was literally twist in my head was okay. You've got a business owner that you can trust, you've got a great relationship with him, he's got his family, I've got mine, I've got my health, which I didn't really have because as a woman, like my periods had freaking stopped at that point. That's another massive red flag, especially for a woman. Not a man. I had the office that it was mine, we'd renovated it, it was a not like just an office, it was like it was everything that I wanted, and I was like, the shame and the confusion that I had being like, why aren't you happy? Why, why is this not enough? What the fuck is wrong with you? And it was that voice inside that was like and I don't I'd started seeing a coach actually, and she she was she was amazing. She was actually a business coach, but she ended up starting being like my life coach and like started therapy because I'd done therapy, like I said, back in 2016, helping me with PTSD, and that was just a fucking car crash. She's just sat there taking notes and there was no empathy, it was it just it wasn't for me that particular style anyway, it wasn't for me.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Like we said before, it's about trying it once not working. I thought I'll try something different, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

For sure. I'm not a slate and any approaches, I'm just like, and again, which is why it's incredibly personal, because for what doesn't does or doesn't work for me doesn't mean that that is going to work for somebody else, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Well, funny enough, me and my wife, we I've been in therapy since last September, and my therapist uh Pablo, he's the nicest, I've mentioned him a few times on on here, and he's such a lovely guy, um, but he he I I've known people that have used him who said I don't find him beneficial, whereas I find him fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

So sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

No, no, it's it's it is you're resonating with the point, and it's important because you're like, oh, that resonates because that is also gonna help you even embody more of your own um resonance. Like you're gonna go, oh no, it is alright actually that I do I do I do, you know, like his approach and it doesn't matter if do you have a five audience who will go it's like food.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Oh my god, do you like that? And you're like, yeah, I fucking love madras.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Oh god, I love madrass, I fucking love madrass.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

I said uh Madras Madras, Bindaloo, Kim and Aunt. Yeah, I like the gym. My brother's my PT and he's listening everything. Isn't he? Yeah, my brother's my PT. He's been my PT for three years now. Uh he works in the hills, he's done. He was on he was uh on the show, he was our second guest. Um but you know he he he listens to him and he's like, I've heard you drinking your wine. Yeah, you're tracking your fucking calories. Like, I've got my own bar, mate. I'm not fucking, I'm not tracking everything. Yeah but that's the thing. People look at this and they go, God, he must be on the piss every night. I'm not we actually lock this up and it only Dunin only opens on weekends.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

The name is just so good. It is so good.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

The one rule is you can come sober, but you leave Duning. Maybe another day. Yeah, always welcome. Maybe another day. Thank you. But now I know what you mean by that about like you get the office, and I I've been there and I'm I'm I know for a fact there are gonna be people listening to this, not necessarily just business owners, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

You're talking any high achiever. Well, partners, people that are parents, because some people have everything, and on paper they go, Oh my god, they've got the house, they've got the car, they've got the they've got everything. And you're thinking, I'm I'm I'm I'm not happy.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Exactly. And what's happening in it what is happening in our society, Mike, is people are then consuming more, chasing more is the dopamine hit. Yeah, that might well be buying, shopping, travelling, cocaine, alcohol, whatever it is, high rocks, gym, high output all the time, cold dips, this, that, and the other, more fucking noise. And actually, sometimes a lot of the time, it's actually going being brave enough to go, do you know what? I accept I'm being honest with myself, and it's really fucking hard to be honest, really hard, which is why my programme actually is called Anora, which is um Gaelic and Latin for honesty to be honest, and people say, like, Katie, your honesty is brutal or whatever, and it's like it's the most loving thing that I can do.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

But I've said this to you before, even when we were younger, and you're not a scary person, but you tear the shit out of me when we were kids, but that's not because I can still remember being I remember being on a park one day and you asked me something, and I didn't know what to answer, and I think you said something like just answer the question.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

That's why that is only extra one time, though.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

That's not a bad thing, but that was only like 13. I was like, oh my god, this fucking girl is so scared. I don't think I came out for two weeks, but that's nothing against you, but I'm joking.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

No, no, no, no, no, you're not like that, but no, I probably was intimidating though, but not but not by like just you just want answers, right? Yeah, but also I I had this like I had this very again locked in survival way of having to think and be. And it was there was a lot of rejection in in my life, even like with my friends at the time. You know, the first two years of high school for me was brutal, even though I was in that group, the popular group. No, again, no one would really know actually what was going on. The girls knew, but anyway, don't need to necessarily go into that.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Listen, if it's any if it's in a consolation, the same guy who bullied me in primary school bullied me, but bullied me all the way through fucking high school. And I know he'd probably listen to this and he'd go, No, I didn't, but he was a bastard.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Really?

SPEAKER_00 52:13

I don't give a shit if he is it, because his actions made me whilst it made me a bit weaker minded at the time, and it's I think it's I do think bullying, which I'm gonna touch on in a later episode, is the fucking world's worst fucking I've got time for bullies. I say to my daughter, if you're being bullied, tell me, but if I ever find out you're bullying someone, you expect to get it from me because I think I know we're going where they've been track here, but um, but it's interesting this now. I'm gonna ask you a question on the bullying, it's just come to me now. Do you think things like when people are being bullied are going through a tough time and then maybe they have to act up a little bit? Do you think that is an early sign that that that burnout is gonna hit them first? Isn't as in so like me, I was always trying to impress people, I was always trying to be the jok the joker of the club, and I was always because I was going through so much shit. Do you think that is like where things start?

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Can be. Again, it's incredibly personal. There is no there we're taught in life there's a blueprint, right? There's a method, there's a way. You start here, you go down here, and you get to that. Our condition in our society is like there is a way. There's one start, there's one end, because we get we regurgitate and we want that clear path. And I'm like, it could be, it might be yours.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, it could be, might not be mine. I've been listening to it thinking it must be.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

I I think once something that's resonating for you there then.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

Even in that, yeah, there's something that's resonated because you could argue it for me, because my hyper survival linked to burnout was being felt like I was misunderstood, I was not wanted, I was rejected, I was used. All these different things made me I mean, yeah, that it they all have contributing factors, yeah. And that's why burnout, it isn't like you're just working too much. Like I said, it could be that you're living a life totally out of alignment, it could be that you're putting up with people and things that you don't need to be. You might have a narcissistic partner, you know, difficult time financially, health, whatever it is, it can all have its place. And that's why my yeah, and that's why my work isn't about saying week one looks like this for everyone, week two, it's about what's going on for my because my job is to mix my science with my intuition, with all the skills and my methods that I've learned over the years, all the different aspects of life, whether it's health, fitness, financial, nutrition, stress, business planning, family planning, relationship, emotional achievement. Literally, it's so vast, and it's just going, what's going on for my?

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Do you find that people who are gym goers, people that tend to eat healthier, um, look after themselves a little bit more, do you tend to find they're easier to sometimes deal with than someone that isn't fitness because their brains automatically wired to be almost what's the word I'm looking for? Because they go to the gym every day, they're regimented. Do you find you can sometimes get no disrespect to anyone listening that you've got, do you find they're sometimes easier to to talk with?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Not necessarily easier because there's an element of performance generally because you tell me what to do and I'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Rather than actually having that authentic inner inquiry or the ability to go, how do I feel about that? For example You could be a marathon runner. Have you ever okay, have you ever had a story about someone that has a heart attack and they're the healthiest people in the world?

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah, I actually know one of them who goes to our gym, he's been working out for 40 years, never smoked, hardly drinks, never had a heart attack, nearly died.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

And when he was asked why, stress from work.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

There is a huge this is again, this this podcast could go on for days, mate, I'll be honest. Um part two coming tomorrow. There you go, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Listen, there's this this you can speak as much as you want.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

So I'm not I never generalise, however, there are studies that if you are a quote unquote people pleaser, you're the one that is dependable, the one that you know is never loses the shit. God, they're so nice, they're so kind, they're so calm. It's not to say that they're not nice and they're not calm, and it's not to say that that's a bad thing and you should be losing your shit everywhere, because again, that's not but there's something to be said with the sort of the one that's always quiet and smiley and happy. What are they suppressing? Because there's a I've got a book right that's about this thick that's about 700 pages, and it's called Metaphysical Anatomy, your body's talking, are you listening? And actually, this is a very different take and this is taking it down a very different road. But there's a lot to be said for Western medicine, the way doctors are trained, are to prescribe based on the symptom. If you have a bad back, for example, it might be not that there's anything wrong with your back, but there's something, the root cause of it is that something's going on in your knee, or there's something going on in the way that you're walking in your posture that it's having an impact on your knit on your bottom of your back or in your shoulder. An issue in your shoulder might be down to your hamstring, but it doesn't necessarily mean so you've got all these doctors and scientists and everything, all these surgeons, not surgeons, that's not actually relevant, but all these specialists just on that particular bit of your shoulder. But you've got specialists looking into this one area.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Then it could be something else.

unknown 57:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And I'm more about the root cause.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

So there's a there was a uh guest on called Dr. Tom Mickle, right? He's a longevity doctor. And his episode was absolutely fantastic, and he was telling me that he his clinic in Chester, new clinic, he does like a full MOT of your body. So he the way he says it is it's like a car, the car looks fantastic, but what's under the boot, what's under the bonnet? And uh, it really resonated with me because it's like you're looking really healthy. I know people say you're looking really well, right? And you're like fucking great, but then you die thinking, I've had about two hours kip and I am absolutely shattered.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

So I I'll interrupt you there. So on that, there'll be an element of your system that will then have a belief or a survival belief potentially that what could happen is you could go, Oh, well, I actually look good, I get a compliment or I get praise on two hours' sleep. So that means okay, well, not that you're going to just adopt your life on that, but you could then but if you hear that a lot, then you could absolutely create this belief that you can have no boundaries and work all night and all day because of that. That's how impressionable we can actually get to.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Yeah. So your brain's like a sponge though, isn't it? Yeah. You hear a compliment and you go, Well, I'll do that again. Oh, that shirt looks nice, I'll wear one again.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

But so's your body, your nervous system, your body also has a language, yeah. And that's why I think I said to you on the phone, it's not just about mindset. This is actually creating a connection and bringing your mind and your body back into alignment, bring everything together. You know where they say, like your head and your heart, your head's your thinking, your heart's like your body, yeah, yeah. And sometimes when it's in conflict again, that can be you could reach burnout if you're in a relationship, but you're not sure whether you're your libido's gone.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

So, this is a really interesting fact of this. I don't want to get too personal, but we were struggling for years to consider like to have a have a child. When our diets changed, when we were going to the gym, we were getting sleep, we were looking, we felt happier. It changes, and I say, and then obviously it's a bit silly because remember when Jeremy Carl was on, you'd have like a crackhead about like nine kids, and I'd be like, maybe I should just do that.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

They didn't give a shit.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Yeah, they didn't care, they didn't care, there was no stress. Literally, you could have a heroin addict pop out 14 kids and they're not, and so there's an again, this is about balance, but if your body inherently doesn't feel safe enough, it's not you is creating the environment. If you if if you know where your your benefits are getting paid, yeah, and you you're probably really quite present in your life, you're an opening.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

You should have been a cracker. You use the brilliant phrase on your post, um, you were dragging yourself through cement. So and you couldn't so you were dragging yourself and you couldn't even give your best to your clients anymore. When your body finally pulled the emergency break, as I call it, and was you were forced to exit uh that 50% share of the business, did it? And let's be honest, because I I've been there myself, did it feel like a failure or was it was it pure raw survival? You've used the word survival quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Yeah. So I saw the so the business got so I sold uh my half of the business to my my old business partner in April 24. That I was out of the survival by that point, but I was still on my journey. Because I'd started helping people um through breath work basically. That's that's one of the main ways that I um yeah, I managed to turn things around. And I'd sort of have been helping people on the side. I'd I'd been to um I'd basically studied for nearly 12 months to become a breath coach because I was like fucking hell, like this is incredible. Like I'm not taking any pills, I'm not taking any tablets, I'm not doing any of these things. I'm I'm healing, I'm getting better and all these things. I was uncovering life and I was like, I can I can I want to learn this. That's just been part of my nature as well. I'm like, oh I hated school. I love no, didn't hate school. Give me a teacher that was engaging, I'd smash it. Like I loved it. Give me a teacher that just name a few. Yeah, like Mr. Captain, for example, he was class at maths, loved him, yeah, loved Mrs. Fowler. And you know, there was just certain teachers. I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

There's I and I and I think this is a thing about school, and I've got to be careful because my sister-in-law is well, she was a teacher, she's actually left up her own business now. But I went back to Upton High about three or four years ago when I did a speech of six formers, and they were like, Oh my god, what did you leave school with? I was like, Nothing, no qualifications. I think my school wants to go here, isn't it? But but my GCSE spelt help.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Yeah, or fudge, you know what I mean? Yeah, I I didn't know what I wanted to do similar to yourself. I just kind of fell into sales, and then I said to them, I'm not telling you that don't worry about school leaving nothing, but I'm telling you that if you do leave school with nothing, don't let it defy where you're gonna because you so there's a chap I know been a McDonald's since we left school. When he left, we all we all used to call him a burger flipper. And now he's a regional director, he's earning seven figures and he's got four or five houses, but he was the best at what he did. That's it. So my I say to everyone, if you're gonna be you're gonna do a job, fucking do it the best of your ability.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

And that's where for me the self-connection piece really comes in. Because if you if you if you can regulate yourself and you if you can be really fucking solid in who you are, you can literally do anything. That is when you can then lead a life of alignment because you know your shit, you know yourself, see all these external factors that could take you down, whether it's opinions or external factors, they're less likely to take you down.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Yeah, and that and that's why I always say about fitness is that if you can get up in the morning, get to that gym first thing, right? Your brain has already switched on.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

While everyone's setting, while everyone's best in snooze, and you're you're an hour into your workout, you're already winning the day. And I know it's not for everyone. My wife has to go in the evening to the gym because we've got the kids, right? She's not a morning person. I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

But I always find that once you've got that balance of going to that gym in the morning, everything certain things change in your in your body, in how you see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

You're physically changing the chemical balance though. You're physically changing what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Exactly. And then your brain becomes more wide and more switched. And I do genuinely believe if I ended up in going to the gym and working with my brother, you know, maybe that day on the 8th of September it would have been differently. And I say that confidently, you know, because I have to be honest with myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

Um, but yeah, I know what you mean about being committed, you know, how we're engaged in school. Like I had there was a couple of teachers I had brilliant, but there was a couple I just looked at my time to be like, fuck's sake, why am I with him?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

I was I was I was got in school. If you've got me engaged, I'm like one of your best students. If if you either disrespect me, you know, you don't treat because that was a thing, like I hated being treated like you know, a child necessarily. I I was a little shit. I would like pretend I was on the period, make the cook, make, make the teacher feel really uncomfortable and just go and have a fag and be like, I need I need to go to the toilet. And like, Katie, you're not going to the toilet again. And they'd be like, I'd be like, I'm on the period. And they go, Oh, okay. And I'd literally go and smoke in B-block toilets. I'm a little shit. I was I literally that's what I would do. I'd just be like, literally fagging it in in um B-block toilets. I did, I was I was able to manipulate it in that way, and but again, that comes from being hyper hyper aware and it's it's a skill. Um, but going back to your other question about um the business. So when I sold my business, it had kind of gone to the point where the way I was helping people and coaching people behind the scenes, it was like I can't, if this isn't fair, one, it's not fair on my other business.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Yeah, two, I was really okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

When I was in that burnout, I have a way I believed that the business needed to be worked on and not both of us in the business. And that in and on, there was a mismatch going on. So I because I was feeling really low and that I was struggling, I was like, oh well that that means I'm wrong. Okay, so I lost my inner authority. I lost my ability to speak up and go, Well, no, I I I stand by this, or and that's not being stubborn, that's being being able to have two truths that can be absolutely correct and whatever. But then it got to the point where I was coaching more and more people behind the sidelines, it was a passion project, and I was getting purpose. This purpose within me was like fucking screaming, and I was like, I can't not listen to this anymore. But it took me 18 months, no, about yeah, nearly 18 months to actually decide that and approach him and say this isn't for me anymore, I think I'm gonna go. Probably not great, no, and I could but I can appreciate you know I'm not gonna project and say it happened in a certain way. Um it's a shame how it ended. Um but I just had to say true terms of the city.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

When do you start looking out for number one?

unknown 1:06:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Because you can't live.

unknown 1:07:00

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

I did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Do you know what I mean? Giving me Jew, he tried to support me, but I wasn't able then to still actually it didn't feel like it was my business because I felt the guilt that he probably had to like hold the reins a bit whilst I was going through what I was going through.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

So if you were honest to him, because it could have been you could have carried this on and imagine down the line, well, I'm fucking doing all this, and you you just explode and you go, Well, I'm I'm trying to do yeah, two different things, and also kudos to you because you sacrificed sacrifice, you recognize something and thought, you know what, I want to help. Yeah, it's so admirable the fact that you took that step and said, I can carry on doing this, or I can find my purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Yeah, and I and I and I tried for it to be to be coexist, and and I do believe that there could have been absolutely a way for me to stay involved in that business, but as more like a distant director, but it he didn't want that, and so I was like, Okay, I'm gone, I'm going then. Do you know what I mean? So I sold mine, and then that but coming up with that that was like a whole fucking death within itself because that was a hot this whole identity that I then had to, as much as I knew there was things going on behind the scenes and I was getting better and I was finding myself more, then I actually had to speak about it and go, people are going, what you selling the business? I was like, Why? And it was like oh, it was really confronting because like you've got that judgment all the time, people judge you changes, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It was like fucking hell, give me a break, yeah. But it was like I've got to own it, so there's an embodiment that I had to find. So when I say that like personal entrepreneurship and having businesses and stuff is like personal development on crack or on steroids, like it really friggin' is, and and that's the level of support that I want to and I am bringing in with my coaching and how it's evolved so much over the last few years because my own situation has evolved so much because as we naturally grow, our perspective changes or it or it alters or it deepens or it heightens. So and I think that that's the same for everybody because I think if again, if business owners are running on running their businesses on that survival, that high output, that's not sustainable.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

Well, I think it's a what's really good is the fact that you're gonna help business owners. So there's a two point attack for me for this, which I think is just remarkable. You're not just helping business owners, you would like to think then business owners are then gonna help their staff.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

So this then bleeds me into my corporate aim.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Because corporates are okay. I'm just gonna say it. Corporates are getting on the well-being bandwagon, right? That's my next thing. Really? Okay, here we go. But no, bunch, yeah. Um corporates are getting on the well-being bandwagon, right? And you've got all the bosses that are like, okay, I need to spend a certain amount ticking a box. There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

We didn't revise this. We didn't generally didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

This is like, this is good. I like this though, because there's alignment I love that. And they're ticking the boxes and all this, but they're kind of being like, you're expecting you're expecting the work to change at the ground level. No, no, you as the business owner, you as the entrepreneur, you as the principal, the CEO, COO in the business, whatever, you fucking lead by example.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

Call it the total wellness bollocks. Because my my wife's um, so we've got two mental health coaches, my wife's one, naturally, and Chelsea. Yeah, yeah, mental health first aider.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

Yeah, we've we've given a lot to people, and I know people are gonna work for us over this and this thinking, you're talking about me. Well, if you think it it probably is, yeah, you shouldn't have been a prick. Um, we've given people months off work for pay over mental health, and they've still fucked us over. Doesn't mean we're gonna stop doing that. And we were doing that four or five years ago. We were giving people months off work because I've I've been there, yeah, you know. Um but yeah, sorry, yeah, go on. I know what you're saying about the the wellness tick in the box.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

And and and the tick in the box, and again, the intention is right, right? But the higher we climb, generally, you've got okay, what people don't necessarily realise is the likes of Steve Jobs or all these billionaires, they've all got coaches, they've they've all got the people behind them.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

They stem by it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

Yeah, exactly. They've got all you know, you've if you're an athlete, you've got a coach, you've got nutrition, you've got it, you've got all these things. Footballers now, they all have um their own coaches' mindset, you know, body and everything as well. But actually, in our society, there's a lot of shame around that, and it's like, no. Sometimes in a in a session with my client, we could be talking about okay, why can't you delegate or how can you delegate? The way I am, the way I've come to accept what I am, is I am a strategist. I see holes, I see patterns in people, and I'm able to help work with someone and go, here's a strategy, let's put this strategy in place to achieve X goal or whatever it is. But in the well-being space within corporate, it's like if you're trying to change the culture from the bottom up, it's the wrong way around. It's like have your manager, have have you be grounded so that you can listen to what you've got the capacity to listen to your managers' issues, so then you help the managers be able to then deal with the staff, have that ripple effect down. They're trying to come at it from the bottom up, and it's it's it's it's the other way around.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

Because because at the end of the day, if if you have a team of 20 and you're trying to help them and they're going, this is really good, but they don't give a shit up there. Exactly. You're just battling with each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

That's it. And then it's like, one is it a waste of money, it can actually it can actually like um have a detriment on the communication and the culture because it can do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

Yeah, but Katie said I've got to do this. Yeah, but I don't give a shit because I want you to do it like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

It's our HR documents that you've got to follow. But why did you pay for this woman to come in and do this? So then you've got to go to the HR, but then by this point, the trust has gone from the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Yeah, and I that's my point. Yeah, so I I suppose let's take, for example, you've got your which I'm gonna touch on the breathing and stuff. We're not even into what you actually do yet. This is ace. Fucking ace. So um you for me, there's old school HR who I fucking hate. I don't care if they hear me, I don't like them. I think you're still working in the 1980s. We're in 2026 now, we've been through a global pandemic. Mental health is the biggest, most spoken about thing now, especially men's mental health. And you're still trying to get guys on site to fill in a document um that was being done in the 80s, right? How do you change their mindset?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

By how do I? Yeah, because when you're going to speak to an old school HR manager and they bring you in, how do you generally and that and that's what's difficult to be honest. And I'm doing some work with um the mortgage industry mental health charter charity to try and make a difference within the mortgage industry. And I'm explaining to them that you've gotta, in order for something to come across with conviction, generally there's something that you would have needed to have walked through yourself before because people can feel that. If you you'd you'd know if I hadn't really gone through anything and I was just spouting shit that I'd read on Instagram because it's you know looking a bit trendy.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

That's why I love Marcus Tins. That's why I love that lad because he's lived it, breathed it, suffered it, and you come out the other side.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah, that's it. You the resonance that you feel from him, you're gonna feel that difference as rather than someone like jumping on a bandwagon or just doing something to deter. The most motivational speakers are the people that have lived it. My angle is is experience it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

Experience a shift for yourself so then you can be that ripple effect as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Live it, breathe it, and then you can expect and I agree with that. So it's like it's all about reading. I I've just finished reading Mel Robin's book, um Let them and all of that book, even though she's misjudged, like that book is her experiences. Exactly. But I love the way she brings in experts in fields, and yeah, she's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

And I did a post about it last week.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

It takes a village to see it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:57

It takes a village to raise a child, but yeah, it takes a village to heal the adult that that child becomes. It's like my approach isn't just the right, the one thing. I don't have the ego to say, you know, if you were to come to me like Mike, I I I'm everything, but I'll what happens with my clients is is generally they are, and I'm not if this isn't a you know a blanket statement, the trends that I've noticed with my clients is they generally have the transformations a hell of a lot quicker. Yeah. Because it is a bespoke approach.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:28

Do you prefer working with smaller businesses or larger ones? Do you have to learn about the culture? Do you have to go in that? Do you have to have like a tick sheet and say, I need to know this, this, and this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

But again, it's finding the right corporates that actually want to do it. Because again, generally they don't see it because they don't see the investment in it, so to speak, if they haven't gone through it themselves. So generally a smaller business is is better.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Because they understand the pressures.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

Yeah, and they're able to make that make that difference because you know the untapped um benefits of actually having a program or having solutions like like this and the way I teach is your staff turnover is going to reduce. Staff sickness is going to reduce. Do you know what I mean? Sales are going to go up. Oh, again, this is another conversation in itself, but where I'm at now is I've really been fine-tuning things over the last two years since I sold the business, like two and a half years ago-ish now. I've really been fine-tuning this and really being like, okay, who who is my ideal client? Who is it that I want to work with? What are the trends? What can I tweak? What works, what doesn't work, rather than and I suppose that's gonna change constantly, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Of course it'll change. You could think one minute, oh my god, I absolutely love it and this, and then a sales company come along and you go, Oh wow, I've got a separate because I suppose you do you have to build like separate sort of programs for separate companies, or do you take bits? Because you've got different, you have a whole palephora, don't you? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

And and it is bespoke and you know, there's not there's not, don't get me wrong, I'm not working with like loads of companies like I haven't. I've worked with more business owners and and like high achievers, but I the company that I did work for in that level was very much like tell me what your problems are, and it's them trusting me with that and me going, okay, well, we start here and we we can do this and we can we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

Do you kind of look at it, say like you're here, you but I suppose it's a case of understanding where do they want to get to the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:21

It's it's like consultancy, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

Basically. And is it sort of like you advise them on how long it will take, or do you just say, look, use me as and when you need me? What's the sort of program?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

Again, it depends because it it it's only it's only as impactful as how it's taken up. Do you know what I mean? But again, I said you've got to create the conditions for the people to do it, so you can't expect people because boundaries for people now since COVID with employers and everything are shocking. Yeah, people are working from home more again, which is great, there's loads of flexibility, which is great, but people's boundaries are shit. They're working till eight, ten o'clock, nine, ten o'clock at night, and you're employing it's like, no, you've your employers are actually expecting that of you, and it's like, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Well, I say to the guys in the office, so obviously being in telemarketing, everyone thinks you're in a rubber desks, right? They've all got the ability to. I say to them, if you want to work from home, obviously we pay for the office, so go to the office. But like in the summer holidays, there's most of the staff have kids. So I'm like, right, listen, if you want to work from home to be around your children, I do not mind. Yeah, because your kids have to come first, right? That goes right back full circles and start. Mike, your kids have to come first. As long as that work is being done, and our results, because we are a target-driven business, and that is fucking pressure. And I don't want to put more pressure by saying, make this many calls, send that many fucking emails. They're not they're not driven by that. I asked everyone, what are you driven by? Is it the incentives or is it um is it working from home? Is it freedom? Because Sean says it best. If you're working for money, you are working for the wrong thing. Everyone wants to have money. If you want a million pounds, you'd want two million pounds.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

You'd wish, right? It's that fulfillment. Right. When's it why why do you want the million? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

Work for your freedom. Have the freedom to say, like, I'll say to the guys, Nave you've smashed it, go home at 12. It's Friday. Love it. Go and enjoy yourselves. Go go and spend time with your kids, right? After five o'clock, no one's fucking bothered anyway. So I'm always looking at like from the mentality of when I was in that role, what do people want? And you only know by asking that question, what do you want? Yeah, I want to earn more money. Okay. We all want to earn more money. We can't earn more money unless we hit why we can't earn more money unless the business hits this, this, and this number, right? So, how do we get you to want to hit that number?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

Well, I I've got a particular um programme that I've got, which is um I'll say it's fine, regulate to elevate. Oh, I like it. And it's uh teaching people in sales the differences on how expanding your capacity will increase sales. Well, it'd be really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

I'm not just saying this because you're it'd be really good to get you in and meet the team and do some work with us. That is the next thing obviously we want to talk about. What one thing I'm really interested in, what you do is the breathing. You've said about this breathing, and I've been trying, I didn't want to jump the gun, but I've also seen a testimonial online taught to me about how what what is that's world? Is it just is it breathing? Is it what what how would you is that what it is?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

Basically, it's the first thing that we do when we're born.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

We take our first breath, and it's the last thing that we do. But we're not taught. I like that. We're not taught. We're not taught how to breathe at all. Now breath work is so nuanced, it's so in-depth, there's so much to it. You can use breath work to ease anxiety, ease depression, get you fired up before you like a step on stage, get you chilled or focused before you go into an exam, before you start a podcast, do the things in life, keep you calm, stop you from reacting to your kids. I've actually had so many clients say that they are literally shagging like fucking rabbits with their partners because like things happen. Basically, she's gonna think you absolutely thinking if she's just heard that, she'd be thinking, What the fuck are they talking about? What are they talking about? Okay, so using your breath is allowing you to work with your body on what's going on. People say I have anxiety. If I was to ask you, what is anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

Me, uh, my anxiety is uh the fear that so I sometimes make a and Sean says it, I create a scenario in my head that hasn't even happened yet, and then anxiety kicks in.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:29

And it's like, shit, are we gonna make payroll? Oh shit, are we gonna do this? And then sometimes it's it's actually not even bad, but because my brain's already wired into that way. I'm getting better, but anxiety, I think everyone has their own level of anxiety. Like Sean shouldn't laugh. She came home from uh from a hendu, shouldn't laugh. She came over from a hendu the other day, and she got in at three in the morning, and the plane had had the worst turbulence, but because she was hung over, she didn't even say, Hey babe, I'm home. She just went, babe, the plane was really bad. I thought we were gonna crash. I just opened one eye and I was like, Where the fuck did you just come from here? So her anxiety was this plane feeling going up and down, she didn't sleep all night, she was like, So it embedded into her. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:11

It does make sense. So another question then, based on that. So that's your thought perception on anxiety. What it is, what do you experience when you have anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:23

Oh my god, uh, I have moments of failure, like I'm not doing the right thing with my kids, um, I'm not a good business owner, you know, I could be doing better as a husband. Why is this happening? Oh my god, this happening again. Shit, shit, everything's on fire. Like Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:42

Thanks for sharing. What happens in the body? What do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

Uh like a claminess, like uh almost like your tummy is a bit getting a bit tighter. Um just tiredness, sluggishness, like just wanna just want to cry in a nutshell, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:00

Yeah, okay. So what if I was to say to you that anxiety isn't necessarily something that you have, it's your it's actually what your body it's the experience of you that your body is giving you. So anxiety isn't like I said, it's something that you have, it's something that you're experiencing. So it could be clammy hands, heart racing, breathing changes, but your body is ultimately giving you the sensations, and this is why I bring the mind and the body together, because the first answer to the two questions, which isn't incorrect, were mind-based. What you think. So when I said to you what happens, you went you went straight into what you start thinking about, and then the fears, what your head is thinking, whereas actually what's happening is your body is signalling first because it's pumping the body through the adrenaline, it's thinking, but the brain is sending the um the messages to the body, and the body is responding by flooding it with pumping the heart rate up, feeling an emotion, it's creating a re uh a chemical reaction in the body to get you to take action and move potentially. That can be what anxiety is. So when you start, you know, heart pounding, adrenaline and cortisol is getting pumped because it's sensing fear. Remember what I said before, as if our ancestors are in the caves, it needed to run or you were gonna get chased. It needs to pump the body thinks it needs to because it's sensing fear. It doesn't know whether the same fear is the bear that's coming or the person that's chasing us, or the fear that you're gonna let somebody down. Fear, it's the same thing, but your body can't, your mind will have different interpretations of fear. All these different, you know, like if you were to do like um like a spider graph, fear, what all these different fears mean and can feel like in the things that you'll think about, but your body interprets fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:56

Quite mental, really, because I was in a when I went to Maplegrove school, I actually put the word fear on the and I said, tell me what fear is, sadness, unknown. And I said it's got a double moral four. So fear is you know, fear, everything, and run.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:09

I said, but if we flip it and put face, everything, and rise.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:12

That's the one I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:13

Yeah, I said one's a red word, one's a green, and all the kids were like, so now you've said all that, I'm thinking, I need to just have that slide, maybe just tattooed on my arm, maybe I don't know. Maybe um, but yeah, I anxiety. I speak to a lot of people have it, and they they always say they feel like it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

Generally, it's sensations because it feels fucking scary. Your heart's pounding, you feel like you can't breathe. Everything's you know, sometimes you can even like tense up, you could breathe too much, not enough, whatever it is. So, what breath weight basically is is how in in that one scenario with anxiety, it you can use your breathing to alter what's happening in the body.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

I first got introduced to breath weight when I was pregnant, however, when I look back, I used to be shit scared of flying. Shit scared of flying. And I didn't fly till I was 16, and that was when I went on holiday with my boyfriend for the first time.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

The night before we flew, he knew that I'd never flown. He was like, Oh, we should put a film on. It's like, oh, this is a really good film. Final destination, the first one.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:17

I was like, you twisted bastard. I was like, anyway, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:26

So I watched that, so I was terrified of taking off. Terrified of taking off. Literally, I used to fly for years. My go-to, I'd put my sunglasses on, I would have chewing gum, and I would put the hoodie over my mouth, and I didn't even know I would connect to my breathing. I would literally get so connected. I'd never done it before. So that's why I know it was in me. And I would breathe, and I would just get present and I would get calm. And then once everything had calmed down, come up, and I'd be alright.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

So, what what's your thoughts on like meditation and like the wellness apps? What's your what's your thoughts on all that sort of stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:03

I mean, yeah, they c they can be great for sure, but again, your own physiology is incredibly personal. So the way I can help my clients can be, like I said, it can help ease that anxiety, that fear, that self-chat all the time. Because ultimately, fear as well is that it means you're not being present. You're either worrying about what's happened in the past or you're worrying about what's happening in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:24

Which sometimes hasn't even happened at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:25

Exactly. But breathing and having an element of practice with meditation or breath work or whatever is literally practicing on you being present. If you can be present right here, right now, nothing else, and with yourself, that's an incredible skill to be able to use and build.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

So what you're basically doing is which is incredible, is you're taking people away from a scenario that might not have happened yet, but they think it is, or a scenario that has happened and it's replaying in their mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:56

You bring them in the body and the mind to catch up with.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:00

How long does that take to learn?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:01

To learn? Oh God. I mean, I I'm always still learning. Yeah. My f so when I first started breath work, I'll tell you my I'll tell you the first like time, I was feeling really, really bloody low. Really low. And because also breath work, you can breathe in certain ways to get you pumped. If you're really depressed, you're generally really sluggish. You're on the sofa a lot, you're sleeping in, you've got no motivation, you're just like, oh, whatever. You can breathe in a certain way to get your fucking fired up and be like, right, come on then, let's go. And what's what's the difference then? What how so you try you're either using your breath to charge the body up and like get stuff moving, if it's depressed, because your nervous system's in a particular state. Which again, these all these are all the things that I teach, because actually when you teach it, it's like, oh, that makes loads of sense. Doesn't have it doesn't have to be super scientific. Um, or if you're really charged a lot, you go, the breath can calm you down, so it can fire you up or calm you down. Right. You can use it in loads of different ways, and that's why it's so fucking good and it's your own. Do you know what I mean? It's nothing external. Um, but yeah, I I was messaging a guy on Instagram um and it resonated with a lot of what he was talking about, and he said, Kate, do this breath work at home, it was like a YouTube video. And I did it, and I remember I was working for my sister's house that day actually, and I did it, and I followed this 20-minute guided practice, and I had n I hadn't felt so alive in fucking years. And I was like, What the fuck was that? I've never took drugs, used to smoke weed when I was younger, not done anything like high few poppers at a festival. Do you know what I mean? Like that's about it. But I was like, I it the what came up with me was like a few poppers, few poppers at a festival sometimes, you know. But I was like, I feel like I'm on drugs, I feel high. It was mad, and um anyway, I just developed, I practiced it a lot, did it a lot, and then I was like been on a few retreats and it was incredibly healing. And that I entered the breathwork world in the more of like the trauma release side of things, it was quite the heavier side I started in, and I was like, oh my god, I can help all these people. I had the met the best intention. Oh my god, I can help all these people and release people's traumas and they can find themselves and all this. And again, you know, I know I talk like I'm taking the piss out of myself, but the girl, I had good intention, and I still do, and that's not to say that I don't do that breath work anymore with people I do, but I was you've expanded your repertoire, haven't you? Of what you can do, yeah, and that's incredible hundred percent because I was doing like group events, and no matter what disclaimers, I had an amazing breath school that taught me the ethics, the science, the boundary setting, like all about me being the best facilitator that I can be. Um, but I was going in no matter what disclaimers I was putting on workshops, no matter how safe I was, I was still getting people coming in but into a group workshop that they'd paid for on Eventbrite, no matter what contraindications I would put on there, whatever, I I would open the session up and they'd be like, Yeah, I'm here because I tried to commit suicide three weeks ago, and I was like, You shouldn't be fucking breathing like this. Because if you're in that dysregulated state where there's a lot going on, the last thing that I would recommend anybody do is create more charge. It's like we just want to like calm things down gently and treat things like that snail, the tort or user approach, because in our society we're so conditioned to chase the dopamine, the drama, or the quick fix, or and whilst it can provide temporary relief, and that's fine. When you're working with the breath, it can be incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:49

You can read trauma people, and and also I think since we left school, things have got worse. Exactly. Social media, like I'm on social media, you're on it. I won't let my daughter go on it. No, she's not allowed a phone. I don't care. Her friends have got she's in primary school, some of her friends have she's got a phone, she has got a sim card, she's just got YouTube and that. Um but I've said no, yeah, you're not having it. Yeah, like she has a she has like a kid's TikTok account, but she can't, no one can see it. She's allowed to upload it because we know it's no one's gonna see it, right? But I feel now the pressure from a society, if you use the word society a lot, and I completely agree, the pressure that children, even adults, are under now all of us to look good, to to feel good, and there is so much conflicting information flying about, and that's why it's good when you get someone like yourself come on that says, I'm not trying to tell you that your way is bad or or it's oh it's better than mine. You're just genuinely trying to express what you can do to help, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:48

That person, because again, I'm different to you, you're different to your wife, your kid, your child, your people that you you employ, your mum, your dad, we're all different. Stop trying to put everybody in boxes, and that does take time, but again, I just have to keep remembering I am the ripple effect because my marriage is stronger, I'm a better mum.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:08

What's it I don't mean to be personal, but what's at your house? Is it do you have like a calm environment in there? Like uh what does your partner do? Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:16

He is an electrical engineer.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:18

Wow, okay, very stressful job.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He's a fucking stress head. Is he? Yeah. I just can't imagine it. We're not the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:27

That makes it work though, right? The yin and the yang. Like me and Sean, I'm very so I'm like, oh my god, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, we're gonna fucking she's like, Mike, my whoa, whoa, whoa, let's just focus on part A.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:36

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:37

Yeah, and she she's the one that brings me back in.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:40

Yeah, interesting. So, in answer to your question, is my house super calm? No. Right? Being regulated doesn't mean that you become, like I said before, you're that yoga mat yogi. Oh my god, love and light, and oh my god, like I so don't get pissed off anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:00

It's like the hippie culture versus like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:02

Yeah, basically. Do I lose my shit? Yes. Do I lose my shit as often? Absolutely not. Am I have I got the capacity to be able to try so many different ways first? Absolutely. If I I would be robbing anybody of the experience of life by portraying that I'm not a human, I still get upset. People still will upset me and piss me off. I'm still gonna fail at things, but my go-to, my default isn't to lose my shit. Do you know what I mean? Because I know that it's like because people say all the time, like, God, you your voice is so calm. And I find that bonkers because I'm like I don't think you changed a bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

Really? Apart from but I do think you bought like your but I've I've not seen you properly since I've seen you at Mootrition. Um with your with your with your with your family. Um but you don't you you don't seem any different, you just seem like you've got and this is I say this with love and respect, purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:03

Because I didn't know you in your working life, but from listening to your story to now, you seem like you've got a purpose, and I think that's I think that's incredible. But you've had to get there through real strong challenges, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:14

And that's what I say to people is like when I went to that primary school the other day to that talk, I would never have done that a few years ago, but because a lot of these children I met, they were going through ADHD, autism diagnosis, they're not sure what the world has for them. If if I could go and speak to them and say, it is you're gonna enter a big bad world where you're gonna be met with rejection from jobs, you're not gonna get the job you want, you might get the job you love and fucking hate it. As I that's the wonderful thing about life, is that you can be knocked back a few times and still keep going. Yeah, and it was such a uh honour and a privilege to meet these kids and really speak to them and just working with children. Well, I'm gonna say, like, you know, you you we're talking about the adult side of it, you must you're teenagers and and even younger than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:57

For sure, and again, and and this is where I I do because I am naturally very entrepreneurial, I have ideas, I can't bring to life everything, right? I wish I could, but I can't. I've done work with teenagers, and I think the state of teenagers right now is is actually diabolical. I think it is so sad how lost these kids are. I also think it's incredibly sad how lost the parents are. And when you asked me before about how what my house is like, my house is very real. We're very we're dealing with an eight-year-old child. You could she's incredible, she's going through what she goes through, she's eight. My intention as a mum is to allow as much as I can without to allow as much as I can to allow her a safe space to express whatever she needs to express, and I'm gonna not judge her, and I'm gonna hold her, and I've got the emotional wisdom and capacity and the tools to be able to encourage her to be whoever the fuck she wants to be. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and that might be that I don't choose to work 12 hours a day or whatever, I choose to live my life in a way that is an example to my daughter whilst building a business. Yeah, and that and I know that will probably go, oh fucking, that's alright for her.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

People that probably haven't done it though.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:18

And and and I really want to point this out if anyone's listening to this, who would listen to this because they enjoy podcasts. Because I get that, I love a podcast, I'll be able to listen to your podcast. Okay, if you listen to this and one, if it resonates with you, then pick up the phone, right? You get your call. But then also, if you listen to this and you haven't tried it before, but you're scared to start.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:38

But start and know the support, because that is the biggest thing about being a business owner entrepreneur. We think, right, oh my god, right, I need to be like the direct Stephen Bartlett.

unknown 1:37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:48

I need to be like this person because I'm seeing all this, and I'm I'm you know, I've I've been really fortunate to share a table with some of these people that we see on TV. They all say the same thing. Don't fucking work yourself to the bone. Stephen Bartlett's renowned for saying about burnout and how like he went on stage and he had no sleep. People think, oh fuck me, I need to be like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:05

And I'm going, you really don't you really don't need to be like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:09

Like okay, the perception for me. I could have still sat here ten years ago and had a really honest conversation with you. I've always been an open book, but the way I feel sat here, I haven't got any anxiety. My experience is different in life. And sometimes people may go, What? You were insecure. What? You were this, you were that, and I'd be like the way I walked through life generally was I was gen genuinely so uncomfortable in my own skin. I felt rejected, like I said before. I had abandonment issues, like all the things, hence why I was this like hyper-independent, probably really defensive girl.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:58

Yeah, I mean I said before about like it scary and stuff. I think but I didn't mean that in a way that was like insulting. I meant you always struck me as you were you were before I go back to us being kids, right? We were on that park or the field behind which you were always someone that seemed more ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:17

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:18

You always seemed like you were older.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:21

I felt it to be fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:22

Yeah, but now you say all that, it makes sense. And I think it's important that if people there's gonna be I really hope young people listen to this and they go, I'm I'm there. Because it's interesting to get the views of these people. Um I've got a couple more questions, obviously. I'm conscious of time. Um this is one that someone's actually asked me to ask you. So they put you this is from Stevie put you sell workplace performance packages to businesses. How do you pitch breath work in regulation to an old school CEO who thinks performance only comes from longer hours?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:52

I ask him about his life.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:54

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:55

Again, it's through that um because have you had that before? Yeah, yeah. And I asked them to experience it. I asked them to go in within themselves, ask them a few questions about their goals or what they experience on a day-to-day basis, what what might be their challenge or whatever it might be, experience a particular type of practice and they go, Oh my god, I feel so much different. And then they go, Right, okay. So because then I'm I'm very much like, don't tell me like I need to know like why. So I teach in that same way. But also testimonials, obviously. But it's through empowerment through knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:37

Like they've got to be able to understand it, not just be told what all the benefits are. Okay, tell me what rather than me pitch to you, let's say you are that old school business owner, rather than me pitch, pitch, pitch to you, because you've heard wellness, you've heard this, you've heard that. If I'm just pitching at you, but you're not gonna resonate because you're just like I'm just being sold to here, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if I find out about you, your business, your challenges, what's your culture like, what are the main challenges that you're experiencing if your sales dropped recently? Is your sick greatness up? Is your high turnover you're spending thousands on high turnover as staff, whatever, what's going on? I just have a way which you can't really explain.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:17

Yeah, because your way is different to everyone else's.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:19

My way is different, but I've got an ability to be able to see where there's holes.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:22

Yeah, we got approached a few years ago by a wellness coach and a lovely guy, but he didn't ask me any questions. He spent two hours telling me about how he's gonna help, and in the end, I went, look, I said, I'm a salesman, my job is to ask questions. I was like, and obviously you can tell from doing podcasts, I ask questions all the time. Yeah, not just to be intrusive, but I I'm it's the same if I'm trying to find something out about a business of how I'm gonna generate them revenue because I'm gonna ask a business for quite a large sum of money up front, right? Yeah, but why am I doing that? I need to understand why a business wants to part ways with and use our business for lead generation. We're very fucking good at what we do, we generate millions, if not billions, for people, right? And we just work on the phones, you know. So I need to ask questions. And if someone doesn't start asking me questions about me or more so my business, I've got a red flag. So I'm thinking, uh how can you sell that prime example? You don't know. I got a call yesterday from another lead generation provider, hadn't looked at my website, hadn't looked at what we do, and he was like, We can book you appointments. I'm thinking, can you? And I'm thinking, I well, I said to him, I said, Do you know what we do? He goes, Yeah, you're a Mark Saint. I went like look again, and he must have pulled it up on his computer and went, We're a lead generation provider, mate. I went, We do what you're selling. Yeah, it was it was embarrassing. I said, Go and do your research. I said, just remove me. Yeah, but um I love that though. Yeah, you've gotta go and do some research. I used to say I you say research like me, I couldn't just bring you on today and start asking you all these questions. Like I've done, I've sat down and I've looked because I have to know that to your off mic. I was gonna say, love that. But I've got to every single person's episode that comes on here is broken down and I and then I do a and I have to know where my start and end is. Because if I just come on and go, right, tell us about yourself, we'd be done within five minutes. Yes, okay, some of these podcasts last longer, but I love it because I I'm I don't want to do a podcast which is the same shit. I want to do a podcast where if people are on a long trip journey, they can listen to you talk about this breath and they can listen to your life. Maybe if there's a mortgage advice, so someone's what you've done, that's what we want to get to. Yeah. All right. So last last question for me is what is the actual measurable business cost when a company ignores staff well-being until people start quitting?

SPEAKER_02 1:43:38

I mean, I don't think there is one set amount.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:42

I it literally again it depends on the business. The immeasurable amount, it depends how much you are spending on your HR. Well, that do you know what I mean? How much you spend on your HR seems.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:52

What's the biggest mistake HR departments make when trying to implement wellness to prevent burnout?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:57

Well again, it's understanding what the core it's understanding what the challenge is within that business. Because I could achieve okay, my approach could be that I could depending on the type of business that you've got, depends on the demographic within your teams. I've done work for a company called Kafkas, which are um like a huge national uh they deal with really high um what's the word? Like social services. Um they're like Kafka are the ones that above social services basically, so they have they've got quite a traumatic job. I've done work with them and again I tune to their team. I was like, well, what your team experiencing? They're dealing with a lot of traumatic families, like all the all different things. Again, that's different. I had another firm that I've done work for that generally their um their team were actually generally really healthy. They looked after themselves, they went to the gym. I was like, okay, so what's stagnant? Well, there's a few people like you know, not really performed, they weren't all fired up, they were all just like coasting, it wasn't growing. So I was like, okay, so they're all interested in the gym, this, that, and the other. So we looked at improv how they could empower themselves by like uh expanding their the health now, like improving the HRV. So there's different ways that you can use nervous system regulation for different types of businesses and teams and cultures and things, but I think that's where it's getting it wrong because I think so many people see wellness as this like trillion dollar business, which again it is, but you've got people that just want to come in and tick a box and will just be you can let's be honest, you can generate a uh program from ChatGPT if you want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:42

Correct, and that is I so I'm one of them with like fucking oh, don't so I did a test, right? I I did a week's worth of chat GPT posts on my LinkedIn and got fuck all and then I did two posts at a week because I'm always posting on LinkedIn, I try and be as regular as possible, and I did two posts personally, and it got loads and loads of love and loads of likes, and it's quite funny because when you work in telemarketing, no one wants to like your post because they know you're gonna pick up the phone. Whereas now I just don't. I just email them saying thanks for the like. Yeah, thanks for the like. I'm here if you need me. If someone views my profile, hope you're all right if anything. I I'm not a salesman where you're gonna be making 100 calls a day. I refuse to be like that. I don't want my staff to that. I wanted to make 30, 40 calls and get a good result. Let's get the because it's about ROI and your what you do is return on investment, right? But your return on investment is different to mine, exactly. Yours is performance level, mine's revenue.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:42

Yeah, but also it can be revenue with, like I said, the regulate to elevate. Yeah, yeah. Because if you're coming at it from a sales perspective and people want to go, let's say your team are sound, right? Let's say you've got no issues in the business.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:55

But it could be, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:56

You could have actually with the because your culture sounds pretty fucking strong because you are probably leading very strongly from the top down, right? That would be my sort of blanket assumption compared to other business owners that I've spoken to, right? So your approach with this type of wellness or whatever, I hate that word wellness, but it's one that's you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:17

Well, it's the it's a trigger word, isn't it? And it's probably the most spoken about word now.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:20

Yeah, well, it's it's watered down anyway, because it's like anxiety or ADHD. Everything's like a buzzword, it's like watered down. But anyway, you could use nervous system regulation practices or using the skills that um the approaches that are relevant to you to just elevate their sales. It's not all about fixing, yeah, it's all about when things are bad. And this is the other side of how how I help with clients. Like not all my clients are like at burnout, a lot of them are just I'm really I had a guy that was a business owner flying, flying, pulled up at my house in a really freaking nice portion. I was like, okay, fair enough. The guy goes to the gym, he smashes life, he's got a great work-life balance. We use breath work for him just to elevate, just to literally create more capacity, making that jug or that pint glass bigger by using certain practices and stuff as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:17

That's that's fascinating. Yeah. Um so I'm gonna ask you a question. Don't feel like you're going right. I ask everyone this because this is where we go full circle, and I have a feeling I know where it might go. What has been the hardest moment you have faced so far in your career now professional?

SPEAKER_02 1:48:38

What's been that moment where you are? I'm trying to pick one. Well you three. What's the hardest moment, Sam?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:00

The hardest moment were feeling when I was achieving, unapologetically, I'd want everybody to achieve with me. But there was always I was al I would always get shit everywhere I worked. Because I'd come in and I would just smash targets. People didn't like that. And oh fucking hell, yeah, I faced a lot of yeah, there was all the and uh the the zonership, there's obviously elements where I was probably really like focused and it probably seemed a bit like heartless or whatever at times. But anyway, I was always there was always something. And it was difficult when I was trying to get back into work after maternity leave that things had changed and yeah, rather than just telling me that my job wasn't there anymore, tried to create something else and that was really difficult. But that was a dark that was dark. Um, because it kind of set my PTSD back off a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:02

Yeah, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:03

In 2018, so two years later.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:06

How'd you handle something like that? Welcome back. By the way, your job's not really here, but we've made one for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:11

Well, yeah. It was and it was interesting because that was a really great when I look back and reflect as well, that was also a test for me to I have a natural skill of sensing stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:24

Yeah, yeah. Um telling my wife. Really? Well, it's a woman's intuition as well. She will know when something's not right. But then I'm the same in business. If I know someone's gonna leave or I know something's not right, I will say you get that sniff, don't you? Yeah, I've done it before and I've gone there going.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:39

But I used to be like, oh, it makes me really judgmental, but I'm really negative. Like, no, again, that's a skill to harness. Anyway, there was that second one has been when I sold the business, like when I finally made that decision. Oh my god, I had a mic, right? The day two weeks no, I'm gone. December of 23, I said, I don't think I can do this anymore. Thinking I'm out. He said, take Christmas to think about it. Come back in January. I was like, no, I'm gonna give it a go. A week in, we were so misaligned on stuff, and I was like, No, it's I it's time I need to sell. The day after I had a migraine that I was in bed for for three days, a migraine, and it was not the pressure's been released, the pressure was releasing because I've been sewing my head for so long about it. It was like, oh, and I remember at the time thinking, I'm lying in bed here, literally physically thinking like my skull is gonna crack it. It was it was bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:40

Kids as well, that's even harder, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:42

It was hard. Mosbum was amazing. He's hard, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:45

It's do you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:46

I adore that man, he has supported me through so we support each other with the time. I adore that we've met you. Well, you get on with Jimmy's sound.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:53

I met well, I met a nutrition very briefly. Yeah, I think that day, I think he was hungover, or you were or something. I don't know. I remember, yeah, you were because your door was trying to see the cows, and I was like, Do you want to come through? And then you went oh yeah, and you went, Are you Mike?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:06

And I went, Oh shit, yeah, do you Oh my god, yeah, I didn't I wouldn't even say he was here there there that day. Um no, he Jim's we've been together 18 years now, like he's and again, you only I think you only stay together that long if you both remain open to communicate. I think that's the thing, and and there's you know, there's been times where I've grown or he's grown and it's like, oh are we still on the same path? Yeah, but so far we we we come back together and it's good. So there was there was that side of it the business finally walking away, being brave enough to walk away. And the third one is building this is it is confronted every insecurity, every self-doubt, every I was not expecting that. Yeah, it is confronting everything in me to because there's no mask to this. There's not not that it's a mask, but there's no character to it. It's not mortgage Katie. This is Katie, and it's like feeding into that. Am I enough? Am I chosen? Am I gonna be rejected? Am I gonna fuck it up? All the shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:15

A lot of um I suppose the anxiety in a st in a head start coming out, don't they? Am I gonna be able to help people? What if I can't help people? Or if I let people down. Yeah, what if I let people down? I think that's the biggest one. That everyone thinks what if I let people down?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:28

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:28

And yeah, and I think naturally as humans, we fit we assume that we're always I do think humans genuinely think, what if I let people down? I think it starts when you become an adult. When you become a parent, second you hold that little child, you think, oh fuck, I've got a new responsibility now.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:43

It people pleasing starts when you're a kid as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:47

You know, except trying people please everyone. But it's because I got bullied so much, I was like, oh I need to try and make sure I'm keeping everyone happy. Right? And I'd be like, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:56

All the things. So yeah, those were my those are my three because like I said, again, entrepreneurship is like if you choose to go this way and you choose to live a life of alignment, like it can feel at times. If you want to build something sustainably, it can be challenging because to do that, you do need that support because someone is gonna throw the mirror up at you and challenge you on your fears, your beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:26

Well, Sean didn't start the business with me. She left her, she weared a career in semi-permanent makeup. And when she said, Yeah, last September wasn't the first time. We've been through hard times before. I remember going on holiday, our first family holiday, and we got there, and our biggest client decided they weren't gonna pay us, and we couldn't make payroll. And that didn't just happen once. And I'll be honest, oh yeah, it happened two or three times. That's tough. And it was, and but the problem is that everyone thinks it's our fault, and you get people saying, Well, I don't understand the flying. It's like, yeah, but you don't fucking realize there's P A Y E, there's NI, there's rent. So, my fault for not keeping my eye on the ball, but that was hard. I spent the first week of a two-week holiday in Greece around in the in the lobby of the hotel while she was in the pool with our daughter. Happens, it does made us stronger people, but she she took and she took a lot of that shit on, you know, and I that's why I adore her because she left her career and she doubts herself. She has doubt now where she's like, Am I doing the right thing as an MD? And I'm like, You are and we still have the conversations now, and it's never easy where she's like, I don't know if we're doing the right thing, or I like that moment, I got she thrives under chaos, and I love off it. It's mental, really. I've got um got something I want to ask you though. It's called the 19-year-old self. If you could sit down with the 19-year-old Katie, who just got her first job as an underwriter, eager to prove herself and ready to run on adrenaline for the next two decades, what is the one piece of advice you'd give her to make sure that she survived the journey?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:55

It's always interesting when you ask someone about their youngest self because they go, oh fuck. You gotta choose yourself. Be vulnerable enough to ask for help.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:18

Be brave enough to ask for help, be brave enough to speak up to yourself and continue to just be who you are because you're a good girl. You're a good girl with a good heart, and you can achieve a lot and you will. That's what I'd say to her.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:33

I think you've done incredible. I think I think you've done amazing. I think the fact that you've been through all this um and you've come out the other side and now you want to learn and implement that, I think it's it's a testament to you, it's a testament to your strength. Um, from someone that's known you a long time, I would say just keep doing you because you're doing great. Thank you, man. I mean that.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:54

Ditto, right back at you, mate. He's doing an amazing thing with this podcast and everything else that you want to use as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:59

Good idea. Might be able to afford a proper podcast camera eventually. If there's any podcast cameras listening you want to or you know, help me, please send them over. The phone works for now. Uh so yeah, I've got nothing else to ask. If you've got anything you want to ask, or what's next for you? Um, world domination. Um for me, I've learned to just enjoy the moment, take it as it comes, stop trying to be the master of everything, get it right, get something right, and then move on. Um I'm just happy. Like I feel for the first time in a long time like things are going well, and I'm happy with that. I've got two wonderful children, an amazing wife, you know, I'm I've got a great little family. Um I think what's next for me is just to keep doing this.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:50

Love that and take one step at a time. Love that. Yeah. Final question. Go on what have you learned today or your biggest takeaway?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:01

Um that failing is just part of the process and feeling vulnerable is normal, and that I need to start some breath work after this. Uh no, just enjoy your life. Um, yeah, I think I think everyone needs to take someone away from every single episode, and I'm hoping that people do. But even if they don't, they can always go back and re-listen. Because that's the wonderful thing about these, is that they're there, they're in the open, and people can come back to them whenever they want, they can listen and they can go, shit, I missed that one, but I can go back to it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:58:34

Yeah, they could listen to it four or five times over the same podcast or the same book, and you'll you'll listen to it. This is probably been our longest one.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:40

This has been about two hours. Oh god, I don't know, I don't know, I've not looked, but uh it'll be quite interesting when it's broken down to a five-part series. I I can talk that's it's ace, and it's ace because I normally I've got to ask a lot of questions, but you've just been an open book and thank you for being so vulnerable with us as well because you've spoken about a lot of really deep shit, and some of it I can relate to, and um I know some of the other stuff other people can relate to, but you know, kudos to you. I suppose with what you're doing, you have to be quite vulnerable and you have to be open with people, don't you? Um one bit of advice I'm gonna give you is um keep being you, like please keep being you and keep helping people because you've spoken a lot about when you were younger, and I still feel like there's some of that there, maybe in some ways, but seriously, yeah, I'm gonna be like I love that, and something I've I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:26

Thank you. One thing I've come to realise and learn is that it will always be with me because it's part of me. Yeah, it's never anything to get rid of. Information is everywhere, right? But integration is rare.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:40

Oh, I like that. And last piece of final from me is it tough times don't last.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:51

But tough people do. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:54

Love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:55

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:55

Love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:56

Right then. Now you're more than welcome. Thank you for joining us. So, everyone, that concludes another episode of Business Life at Otherbollocks. Katie, you've been amazing. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 2:00:06

They can find me on Instagram, mainly at the moment, at Kate K-A-T-Y-L-E-H-M-A-N underscore or Katie Lehman on link.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:15

Katie's amazing. If you please, if you listen to this, get your chance, follow her, watch her videos, maybe look at the website. And if you're a business owner watching this and you want to get the best out of your staff, or you you maybe need to find yourself a little bit, I would really recommend getting in contact with Katie. So thank you very much for joining us today. Right then, guys. Well, I will see you all soon. Uh, any questions? Feel free to drop me a message and uh yeah, take care. Bye bye.