The Church Didn't Hurt You with DJ Forman

If you’ve never been betrayed inside a church, you probably haven't been to church. It’s a bold statement, but it’s the reality of walking with imperfect people. In this thought-provoking episode, we are joined by special guest DJ Forman to dive deep into one of the most sensitive topics in modern faith: the reality of "church hurt." While the pain many have experienced within the body of Christ is very real, we take a step back to reframe the narrative. 

 Join us for a raw, honest, and practical look at how to handle betrayal and exactly what to do with the hurt so you can keep flourishing in the Father’s house. Be sure to stick around until the very end for a powerful prayer of restoration and healing from DJ.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you've ever felt betrayed inside a church, you're not alone. In fact, if you haven't, you probably haven't been to church. A lot of people call it church hurt, but I don't like to call it church hurt because it's not the church that has hurt you. It's the person. Furthermore, it's a spirit in operation using a person to hurt you. We know the word says that we don't fight against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces of evil. The church is the bride of Christ, and his bride is not to blame. We don't need to throw shade on God's bride by labeling it church hurt because of the actions of sinful man. Welcome to My Father's Business Podcast, where we explore our divine purpose and identity in Christ. I'm your host, Lindsay Cope, and I'm about my father's business, seeking to live a purpose-driven life. In each episode, we'll discuss various topics that connect to God's will. Just as Jesus devoted himself to his father's business, we'll see how understanding our identity in him helps us navigate life. So join me on this journey of discovering how to align our lives with God's plan and fulfill our unique God-given destinies. So today we're going to be reframing Church Hurt. And here in the studio with me today is a great friend of mine, a man of God, DJ Foreman. DJ and his wife, Hannah, have been good friends of mine for quite some time. DJ is a leader, a teacher, a mentor. He carries a prophetic gift in the Fivefold Ministry. DJ, I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Wow. Thank you so much for having me on and welcome me, welcoming me like that. It was so great and encouraging just to get to hear Hannah's uh podcast that she did with you a couple weeks ago. I was so proud of her.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Um just filled me with joy because she's got a gift in her life to teach as well. She does. And God's trying to cultivate that in her. And so seeing her step out in her boldness and just embrace opportunities to share what she's been through and what she's learned spiritually and all that she has inside of her, the wisdom that she carries. It really blessed me to see that. Yeah. So thank you for having me on. Um, I'm excited about this. A little nervous, haven't done a podcast before.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. So yeah. So DJ brings a grounded perspective on offense in the church. And before we dive in, let me say that we are not here to slander or bring defamation to any church or ministry that we have personally experienced offense. This is about something that everyone has experienced at some point, and we want to shed some light on this topic to help bring others to a place of healing and restoration. This isn't about slander, this is about healing. So let's dive in, let's explore what John Bevere calls the bait of Satan, which is offense. So, DJ, let's talk about this strategic plan of the enemy to keep us in a place of offense.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Right. So if we're talking about church hurt, the foundation of that is the spirit of offense, like you're talking about. It's a spirit that causes hurt and offense between fellow believers, or it doesn't matter if they're even a believer yet, but within the church setting, there's hurt that takes place. Somebody feels some type of way, so they go off scorned, they leave the church, or they say, I've been church hurt. We hear that a lot, and it's a common thing, it happens a lot, quite more often than we would like it to, for sure. And the spirit of offense, as John Bevere talks about in his book, and that is talk about a work that must be read on this topic. Absolutely. I would recommend that book to anybody. It's transfer, it's a transformational book, really. But he talks about how the spirit of offense is a trap. And you know, traps, if you think about a hunter who lays a trap for an animal, it's hidden and it's baited. So offense and church hurt, it's hidden and it's baited. It's a bait that draws you in and it and it traps you in it. And you don't see it until you're caught in it. And so what is what is that then? What is the spirit of offense? So offense works where kind of two ways, the way I look at it. Typically happens in two forms. It's either the sin in other people hurts you and causes you to turn against the church andor God, or the conviction of God offends you because you don't want to surrender your sin. So you go away and call it church hurt, but really it was just God confronting your sin or your flesh.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yes, that's so good.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

So those are usually the two forms that church hurt takes. It's either another person's sin hurting you, or it's really the conviction of the Holy Spirit confronting you. Yeah. And you don't know how to respond to that. You're not mature enough to know God well enough to submit and surrender your own flesh and faults. So you go off hurt. And then hurt breeds more hurt because you draw other people in on that. And something I actually wrote down, kind of just a revelation the the Lord gave me, if I can find it here. It says that offense works to turn brothers to enemies and sisters to slanderers. And the reason that the Lord revealed that to me is because men, you know, we're action-oriented, we're mission-oriented. So we get offended at each other. We we kind of build walls. We have our camp over here, you got your camp over there, my mission's over here now. I don't want nothing to do with you anymore. There's this wall between us. And in fact, there's a scripture in Proverbs 18, 19 that says, A brother offended is harder to win than a strong tower, and contentions are like the bars of a castle.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Because that's what happens when men get offenses between each other, they want to separate and go to their own corners. Women are a little bit different. The way a woman expresses her hurt is vocally. She wants to share it with somebody.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

So typically what happens when a woman is scorned is she'll go and share. She'll bring in a sister, she'll bring in a mom, she'll bring in a friend, bring in a spouse, and she'll share this hurt. And then if there's not a foundation of truth in that relationship where somebody else can check her hurt and say, Hey, that's not of God, you need to stop, you need to check yourself in the mirror, it becomes slander. Now you've started a gossip party.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

And now you're building a narrative based on deception and offense.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

And so you can you see how that's so divisive and that divides churches.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yes, and that's so that happens so often. And it also causes us to withdraw and sink into isolation at times to completely because that's the enemy's goal, right? Is to bring division in the body. That's the result of offense. And just as my cousin Jonathan shared in the last podcast, isolation is terminal. And he wants to cause us to withdraw. And sometimes, if we're um, you know, it's either one way or the other, we're either going and sharing it with everybody and slandering, or either we're hurt and we completely withdraw and isolate.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Right. Yeah, that's so true. And what's amazing though is God knew, you know, he says offenses will come in the Bible. Yeah, Jesus said offenses will come.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

It's inevitable.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

It's inevitable. There's gonna be offense. You can't go through this life without somebody doing you wrong some kind of way.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

You know what I mean? But the problem is in our walk with Christ, and I was thinking about this today, your relationship with God and salvation begins with desperation. It begins with recognizing your need for God. That's good. And the problem with offense is it triggers the flesh part of you that doesn't want to accept that need for God, that that surrender. So you get in your feelings, you feel like an injustice has been done to you. So I get I should get to hold this, I should get to feel some type of way about you because you hurt me when really we're all in desperate need of God. You know, our righteousness is but filthy rags. So I have no right to really be offended. You know what I mean? Like, what right do I have to be offended? If I'm if I'm gonna humble myself before God, if you say something that hurts my feelings, I should just forgive you and release it. Because otherwise I'm only hurting myself. You know, offense works to it's kind of like you know, that saying it's you know, drinking poison, wishing the other person would die.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

That's what offense does. And I tell you what, the quickest way to get bound by the demonic is to hold unforgiveness in your heart. Yeah. The quickest way.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

It will torment you. In Matthew chapter seven, it might seem like we're trailing off here, but I'm just feeling led to the body.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

That's okay. Make the point because you know, I I have something to share on forgiveness as well. So it ties in, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

It's definitely part of offense because you have to forgive to release the offense. And in Matthew chapter seven, and even in chapter six, when when Jesus has given us the model to pray, he says, pray like this. He says, Lord, forgive us of our trespasses or our debts or our sins as we forgive others. Right. Right. Yeah. Forgiveness has to be reciprocated. How can God forgive the inexcusable in me, but I can't forgive the inexcusable in somebody else?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Right. And here's the thing is it's not about releasing the other person from the debt or releasing them from the offense, but it's about yourself releasing yourself, experiencing that freedom within your own heart, because the word says, forgive as far as it depends on you in Romans. And, you know, we know that the Lord knew that we were going to have to continually forgive day to day, many times a day. In fact, 70 times seven. Right. Because when Peter asked Jesus, Lord, how many times must I forgive? Not just seven times, seventy times seven, multiple times throughout the day and throughout your life.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

Mercy triumphs over judgment.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

You know, and it's it's so powerful to forgive. And right at the end of Jesus giving us the model to prayer, he says, For if you forgive men their trespasses, this is Matthew 6 14, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses. That's heavy.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

And you can't you can't take that any other way. God is saying, if you want me to forgive you, you have to be willing to forgive people. So my freedom, my salvation is dependent on my ability to forgive.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

So this is a big issue. Offense is a big issue. So forgiveness is mandatory.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

You have to release that offense. That's why that scripture where it says than an offended friend is like it's harder to win back than a barred city because offense and that unforgiveness, it is a severe barrier that then also opens yourself up to all kinds of torment.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Absolutely. Forgiveness is such a major component of what we're talking about today because it is the antidote for offense. Um, it is the only way to um combat it is to forgive. And the enemy wants to keep us stuck in this place of bitterness and keep us bound in unforgiveness with contentions against our brother.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

And DJ, you said something about forgiveness that it's mandatory, and that's so good. But another thing about forgiveness and what it's not is that it's not minimizing the offense, and it's also not always reconciliation.

SPEAKER_05 11:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

While reconciliation should be the goal, it's optional because reconciliation is a two-way street. You both have to agree to the reconciliation. So sometimes it's okay to forgive and walk away if that's necessary, if two are not in agreement.

SPEAKER_05 11:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

So let's talk about the enemy's ultimate goal to divide the body, to bring division in the body, and to still our purpose as members of the body.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

Right. Absolutely. So one of the primary ways that I've seen division happen is usually it's the offended person typically will be a little less mature in their faith. And I'll say that because as you mature in your faith, God will put you through a process of facing offenses. Yes, to clean it out of you. That's right. So you learn how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

And there's a proverb that talks about, you know, a wise man overlooks an offense. Because you reach a place of maturity where you realize that's that's your flesh. I'm not gonna let your flesh, I'm not gonna let sin in you produce sin in me.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

That's right. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

I'm not gonna allow your flesh to bring me to that level. I'm not gonna let the enemy use you to get to me to take me down to that level.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

So I'm gonna overlook it. I'm gonna forgive quickly, I'm gonna move on.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

But what happens is we're in the church, so we're there to grow. And not everybody is at that level where they can just overlook offenses like that. They've still got a lot of their flesh that they're dealing with. And sometimes, I'll use this as an example. Sometimes in leadership, you have strong leaders that are called to lead, but sometimes they can be heavy-handed in the way they lead and they can come down on people in a manner that really offends them.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

It happens, it does happen. And sometimes they take offense to it because it is the their flesh and their the you know, there's demonic stuff involved. But yeah, because not every lead leader is trying to hurt people. I don't think any true shepherd of a flock is trying to hurt the sheep, but he wants to clean them up. You know, that's right. The Bible talks about God wants to present us to himself, a bride without spot, wrinkle, and blemish. Yeah. So what do you think the gifts of the ministry are for?

SPEAKER_02 13:48

For correction, for correction, and the word, you know, specifically tells us that that's what the word of God should do. Right. And an open rebuke is better than love hidden. Or it also tells us that. So um people have a hard time when their sin is confronted, and that's where the offense comes, you know. And um, one thing about you had mentioned on you know, how we respond or don't respond as a mature believer, sometimes betrayal doesn't even need a response. The most spiritually mature response is sometimes no response at all.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

How did Jesus respond to Judas?

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Let God defend you. Yes. I I can relate to that personally. You know, I've been through things in my life and part of my testimony, which I can share another time someday. But I had to go through a season where, man, the entire community turned against me. So many people washed their hands of me, said, Oh, he's this, he's that. They labeled me, they named me demonic things, you know what I mean? That's not not what God named me.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

That's not what God says about me.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

And in that season, I had to learn to let God defend me. You know, and and thank God that I have godly leadership around me that also defended me because that's that's what a good covering is for. That's a whole nother topic. We can talk about coverings and submitting to authority.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

But when you submit to godly authority, it provides protection.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Not only does it provide protection, it provides an anointing. And in Psalms 133, which I know you want to talk about this, it talks about the anointing upon the head of Aaron.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Coming down the beard and flowing down upon the garments. That signifies being under the covering of authority. It starts at the head, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

The anointing starts at the head, it starts at the top and it flows down.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

So there's an anointing in unity. That's why the devil wants to divide and conquer.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

He wants to divide the body of Christ because the Bible says that how can two walk together unless they agree? And if two or three touch and agree on anything and ask for it in their father's name, it shall be given unto them. Where two or three are gathered in his presence in his name, there he will be. So the power of agreement in the spirit is strong.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

And the devil knows that.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

So if he can break up the unity in the body of Christ, he can dilute the power of the bride.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

He can dilute the power of the bride.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

And keep keep the anointing from flowing.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah. People miss that piece because you hear over and over and over again the oil comes from intimacy, abide in the shadow of the Almighty. Yes, that is a big part of it. That is so important. However, unity is also where the anointing flows, and we neglect that part, especially when we break off from the body and we say, I don't need to be in the church because I'm church because I spend time with the Lord and I watch church online. Massive deception. Yes, the body, being a part of the body is so important. In Psalms 92, 13, the word talks about being planted in the house of the Lord, they will flourish. The enemy knows that we will flourish in the house of the Lord. When we are planted, when we are rooted in community, right, in unity, and a common unity is what that community word breaks down to be. And when we have this common unity and this common ground and this common agreement, like you were sh saying, then we are unstoppable. But getting to that place can be very challenging.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Yes, you're absolutely right. And there's other scriptures, I mean, there's so many that I can think of that talk about being planted and rooted. Psalms chapter one, it says that he who is planted by streams of water will give fruit in his season. His leaf will never wither, and all that he does will prosper.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

So you got to be planted and rooted before you can prosper. That's right. And so the devil knows that too, right? He knows that just like Hebrews says, do not forsake the gathering of the saints.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

There is a power in community, in common union. Think about okay, let's just think about Acts chapter one and two. When Jesus told the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until the Father sends the Holy Spirit and imbues them from with power from on high.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

So they had to get in one place and one accord. It says that they are in one place and one accord in the upper room, praying continually, seeking God, seeking God, staying in unity. That one accord is a powerful word.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Staying unified. And then what happened? The Holy Spirit came with power. If they weren't there in unity, that wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

That's right. That's right. So let's talk about the protocol for when offense comes. How do we handle that biblically?

SPEAKER_04 18:29

Protocol is a good word. I like that. So God is faithful and he gives us answers for our problems, right? So if we ever need help with an issue, an offense is a big issue, then we should look to the scripture for the solution. And there is one. It's right here in Matthew chapter 18. It says, Moreover, this is verse 15, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. Let's stop right there.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Okay, so let's say an offense takes place. Let's say we're in church together, we've been there together, we've been in leadership together, and you do something that just really offends me, and it feels like a betrayal. I should go to you personally, you know. And if it's between a man and a woman, I should take my spouse with me, you know, because we're one. But if if it's between a man and a man, go to them privately, one-on-one, and address it. And so many times, this is where it gets out of order immediately, is we don't do that. We take it to somebody else and talk about it, we gossip about it, we share it, or we internalize it and we hold it and we don't address it until it festers and becomes something even bigger.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

So we should go and we need to get better at that as a whole. And I think something that individually we need to check ourselves on is hey, if I feel any type of way against this person, have I gone to them privately?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

And if I haven't, I need to repent. I need to go do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

And try to reconcile because reconciliation is always the goal. We want to keep that unity, right? Yeah. So that's the first step. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

And if you think about it, DJ, it's just what grown-ups would do, you know. Man to man, right? Yeah. Like this is the adult thing to do, guys. Like it's not just about how we react as Christians. Yes, that's a very important part of it. And we want to make sure that we are emulating the character of Jesus in everything that we do. But you know, the golden rule: treat others the way you would want to be treated.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

The streets got it better than the church sometimes. They understand how to go to somebody and confront them.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, I think the world knows how to forgive and ask for forgiveness.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

When I was living that life and running around with my friends, like we were gonna, you know, we were gonna pull up. We're gonna say, Hey, what's going on here? You know what I mean? Like, what what's the beef? Let's squash this. Let's see what's going on. Why do we why do we not do that in the church? Why do we get sheepish and some kind of false humility say, I'm just not gonna address this, I'm gonna let it slide?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

It's because of the standard that we place upon Christians, and we're so often called hypocritical in the church because we forget that all men are fallible. We put man in the church on this pedestal, and when they disappoint, we're so broken, we're so hurt by it because our expectations are higher than they should really be, because we're idolizing the leaders in the church.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Yes, amen. Preach on that. That's good. And you know, God will hold leaders to a higher standard. It's true.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

As a leader, you have to really be careful how you treat people, like even more so than other people in the congregation, because God's gonna deal with you for that.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

I had a dream one time when I was first getting into leadership and ministry. The Lord gave me a dream where I was going to a bank and I put in a deposit of a good amount of money, and there was a whole line of people behind me, and they didn't have the money for they had to make some kind of deposit or some kind of payment, and they didn't have the money. So I charged. It to my account to pay for all of them. Okay, what's interesting is I walked away from that, paid for this whole line of people, whatever they needed. It wasn't a whole lot. Well, after that, I noticed money kept coming out of my account, or maybe sometimes money would be added to my account. I was checking it on my phone. And in that moment, I was questioning, what is this about? And the Holy Spirit spoke to me and he said, All those people behind you, because of your leadership, what's in your account is credited to them as well. And vice versa. The decisions and actions they make because of your leadership, it will affect your account.

unknown 22:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

So basically, if they're if they're going astray because of my teaching, because of my leadership, because of the way I treat them and handle them, that's going to be held to my account.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Even more so than them.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

To whom much is given, much is required.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

And so this is I really, really, really despise manipulation and control in leadership. Because it causes so much offense, it causes so much division.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

And you see that a lot. You get people who know that they're called by God. They're in leadership positions rightly. Need to deserve to be. That's what they're called to do. But because of some of their flesh, they misuse that authority. It's kind of like a police officer. You get you get a few bad ones in the batch, right? And it ruins the reputation for all of them.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

It's how it is with preachers and ministers.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

And so much confusion. You think about the new believers, the baby believers in there. I mean, can you imagine the amount of confusion that it brings when this kind of stuff is going on in the church and in leadership?

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Yeah, it's it's tough to deal with, but that's why we have to have this protocol. And you have to be able to address people one-on-one. If somebody can't receive correction, they can't grow. And I don't care if that's the highest uh apostle in the in the state, in the city. I don't care if that's the lowest person in the church. Yeah. You know, and because in the kingdom, we're all the same. There's one spirit. We're all equal in God's eyes. You know, we talked about this earlier. What what are titles? Servant is the only title. You know, those apostolic gifts, the ascension gifts of Christ, the the fivefold, the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the pastor, and the teacher, and the other, you know, the ministers and the deacons, the elders, all these titles that we have just shows a department of service.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Right, absolutely. But the purpose among you that wants to become a leader must first be your servant.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Come on. Yeah. So the the greatest call, the commission is to make disciples, and we're all called to serve to that effect. Yes. And so you can be an apostle and think that you're greater than others because of your gift.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

And then you can misuse your gift.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

And you can hurt people.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

And then you hurt people.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

And so we and those people in high positions of leadership have to be able to be confronted and accountable for their own mistakes. If you can't confront a leader, you can't feel comfortable enough to even go to them and address a fault that they made or an offense that you feel with them. They're not approachable and confrontable. That's hard. That's you can't deal with that.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

You know, that makes things difficult.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Okay, so referring back to Matthew 18 verses 15 through 17, that's really our protocol for how to handle offense.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:12

And we talked about, you know, going privately to a leader or to an individual that's hurt us. And if that doesn't work, there are next steps in the process.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

It says if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. So, you know, if and this I think really is beneficial if you're dealing with somebody in leadership, right? And you can't get through and get can't get reconciliation, then you can take more with you.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Um, and then if they still refuse to hear, then you tell it to the church and you take it public. So that's that's dealing with, you know, maybe some more deeper stuff, not just individual surface level offenses, but abuses, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

But that's the protocol. That's the protocol that that you know, biblically the actions that you would take um in a situation like that.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

So and then it says then if that person refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Ultimately, what Christ is getting at is if you can't be corrected, you need to be cut off. That's harsh, right? But that's what he's saying.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

If you can't take correction, if you can't work through this to find reconciliation between brothers and sisters, because that's what we are, then you need to be cut off from the fellowship until you learn, hey, I need to check myself and forgive and release this and go to this person. And part of forgiveness that's so powerful is like you said, it's you releasing yourself from prison. It doesn't have anything to do with the other person. You can't change what's been done.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

You can hope that they'll come to you and apologize. Maybe that would help to some degree, but ultimately forgiving them is for your soul, your sake. Right. So you forgive, and a lot of times in that process of forgiving, the Holy Spirit will tell you to go to that person. It's not just, oh, I forgave them in my heart. No. A lot of times God will say, No, you need to call them, you need to text them, you need to go to them, you need to apologize.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Even if they haven't apologized yet, you do your part.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Keep yourself free. And you know what? If they and then it sometimes that'll lead them to repent and apologize too. Right. They're just by your actions. That first step can often be the bridge. Yes. And then you get reconciliation. You've gained your brother or your sister back. It's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah, absolutely. Because oftentimes we win people over by our character, and we are ambassadors of Christ. So we carry out that forgiveness. And when we do that, the Holy Spirit will move on them and convict them and bring them to a place of repentance as well. So how we conduct ourselves, you know, not just in our character, but in our conversations, is a very important piece of this, and how we respond to offense and how we are careful not to cause offense, how we are to um correct or rebuke others, that we do it in love.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Because a primary attribute of the Holy Spirit is love. And we need to act out of that love and be conduits of the Holy Spirit and respond to that offense in love. So sometimes it's not an offense that runs people off. Sometimes it's a complaint about things that are not happening in the church that they think needs to happen, or whether it's things are not going the way they expect.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

Yeah, well, first of all, if if you're struggling with those things, you need to repent of your complacency because there are people in countries of persecution that are just grateful to have four walls and a place to worship.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

And it doesn't matter if they have live music or a pastor on stage or if they have shoes on their feet or AC in the building, they are there to worship the king. And so we've got to get away from this production and these programs and back to presence.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Church is about presence.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, and your pre- the presence is harvested within your own heart.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

You know, you can't worship the Bible says that those who worship me worship in spirit and in truth. So your flesh can't worship God.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

You have to worship by the Spirit. So if you're all caught up in your flesh and you're worried about the music, you're worried about the presentation, you're worried about the look, you're not going to have an encounter with God. You've already ruined it for yourself. It doesn't matter where you go, if that's what you're looking for, then that's all you're going to get.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

If your level of worship is determined by the level of performance in the church, then you might have a problem with your heart.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Yeah, no, that's 100% right. And we've got to teach on these things because here in America, we've got it so easy, so comfortable. And sometimes, you know, I'm so grateful for what we have here. But it can be taken away, it can go away. And sometimes I wish that we would get a taste of what life as a Christian is like in other places, which is why I think missions work and missions trips are so productive and fruitful. And I want to do a lot more of that in my future. But we just have to have an understanding that the primary purpose of church, because we're the church, the the people are the church. It's not a building. The reason we gather is to be gathered in his name.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

It's for him, it's to seek him, it's to experience him and encounter him, it's to receive from him the correction, the love, the edification. It's for the corporate anointing that comes when we're in the fellowship with one another. That's the reason we do church.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:33

So where we gather, when we gather, how long we gather, what's going on while we're there, what the message is like that day. Do they have coffee in the lobby or not? Do they have the right kind of worship that I like or not? Those things are so secondary.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

But because we got a church on every corner here in the southeast, it's like, oh, well, I'll just have it as Burger King. I should have it my way. You got fast food Christianity, you got drive-through church. If you don't like it this place, you just go try another place.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

That's bogus. God never calls us to do that. The Bible says that He sets us solitary in families. So God has a place appointed for each one of us to learn and grow.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

That's so good. Another thing that I wanted to bring up is, you know, what if we approach this with the mindset of expectation on the devil being on assignment to destroy and divide the people of God? What if we walked in that expectation? And here's another piece of that. What if we knew that, as we have been promised, all things work together for the good of those who love him, that he was going to use it?

SPEAKER_05 31:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

What what if we approached every situation, every offense, every circumstance that sought to bring division in the church with the mindset of this is for good. This is for good. I believe that the Lord aligns the opportunity for church hurt or offense so that we can be a part of the solution. I heard something earlier this week on social media about this particular topic on being a part of the solution when you're offended. For example, nobody spoke to me. I didn't feel welcomed, nobody reached out, I didn't feel loved. Maybe you're the person that's supposed to be a greeter. Yeah. No one discipled me, no one followed up. Maybe you're the disciple.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Well, I didn't know church was about you.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah.

unknown 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

You know what I mean? Exactly. I didn't know it was about you. Exactly. It's about others. I'm supposed to deny myself daily. Because the Lord knows that we struggle to die to that fleshly nature. He's still going to use it because he uses all things, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

So he's going to use that to awaken us to the reality of what our gifts and callings may be.

SPEAKER_05 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Lord, break our hearts for what breaks yours, what burdens you. Maybe He's He's trying to call something out of you, pulling out those gifts and callings. Maybe the very problem that you're complaining about is the very problem that you're meant to solve.

SPEAKER_05 33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

So I believe that it's all intended to be used because I know personally that I've always had a burden for discipling young women. Because there was a time when I felt forgotten and unseen.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

And so I make an asserted effort to see everyone and to see every young girl at the very age that I was when I felt unseen and reach out and disciple her. And the Lord's brought me girl after girl after girl.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

I love it. So cool. Okay, so that group of believers that approaches a fence as an expectation, who, like James chapter one, counts it all joy, right? That's an army of super soldiers in the spirit. The devil doesn't want to see a believer that looks at a fence as an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Because that is man, that's what hell doesn't want to see. And because when we do that, it's the character of Christ that you talked about. And it's the sufferings of Christ that matured him and perfected him is what the Bible talks about. His call was to die.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

We forget that. We think that because God's so good, He's so merciful, He's so gracious, He loves us so much that everything He thinks toward us is to bless us, which is true. Right. It is good, and He uses all things for our good. But we forget that on this journey there is suffering. Yes. Suffering, even that He ordains for us.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Yes, there is test. Okay. There are tests. Yes. You have to have a test to have a testimonial. And sometimes walking through the fiery trials are what it takes for Him to refine you and transform you.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

It's what it has to be because the human nature is so stubborn and so fickle that we have to go through that refining fire. You know, you think about, you know, the Bible talks all the time about refining gold and refined silver will be like refined gold and silver. Because when you take gold and you you you find it in the earth, you don't know how pure it is, how much pure gold you have there in that. So you put it in a fire and you heat it up. And what happens is the impurities or the alloys, the dross comes to the top. So this is why when when you go in through things in life, the the bad junk comes up to the top, right? Because God's trying to get it out of you. Yeah, He's got to get it in front of your face before he can get it out of you. You got to confront that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

That's right. One thing that it's always stuck with me on that topic of refining the gold or the silver, that the silversmith knows when the silver is ready, when he sees his reflection in it. So our Maker sees his image in us after we've been refined, and sometimes it hurts.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

It hurts. The fire does not feel good.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

No, but he's there in it with us.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

That's right. Amen. And he's one in the fire.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

He's always closest to the vine when he's pruning it.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

That's right. That's so good. That's so good.

SPEAKER_04 36:12

And so when we're going through those seasons of trial and church hurt and we've been offended or we've been hurt, first of all, we need to take comfort knowing that God's with us.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

He sees us. And he loves the other person just as much as he loves us.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

And sometimes God will allow that fence offense to come so that you can confront some of your own impurity.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

That's good.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Some of your own your own sin nature that still hasn't been surrendered. And so when you can confront it and look at it and say, you know what? I need to take responsibility here. I need to say sorry. I need to be the first one to repent.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 36:46

I saw flesh in myself right here rise up. I need to let go of that and go to my brother and repent for that. When you do that and you behave like Christ, you just you just matured a little bit in the spirit. You know what I mean? So there'll be another fire down the road that comes to get something else out. But you passed that test.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

And it's all about reaching that perfect maturity level of the perfect man who is the reflection of Christ. That's what this whole thing is about. It's getting Christ in us and living through us so that we can be his servant, his vessel of use. He wants to use people. He needs a man, he needs a woman willing to give it all to him.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

And and the exchange is you get him. You get God. You get God and all that he has for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

David, you know, prayed a prayer that we should all pray in that search me, Lord.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Examine me.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Know my heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

You know, find any impure way or, you know, in within me and bring it forward. We want to confront that stuff. Lord, let me confront it right now. Let it be seen. Let me deal with it because I don't want to be a stumbling block to other people.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:55

And I don't myself want to miss out on what you have for me because I have this sin in my life that I've yet surrendered. You know, I want to see it. I want to face it. I want to confront it. I want to deal with it so I can grow.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

That's so good. That's so good. Well, DJ, I know we could go on and on because this is such a loaded topic. But before we go, I do want to give you an opportunity to pray over our listeners. But I do want to also close by saying if this podcast has moved you, please share it and reach out to let me know that it's impacted you. Your feedback, it helps me. It helps me to grow and helps me to keep this mission alive. So I would love to hear from you. DJ, if you will close us out in prayer, please. We would be honored.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Lord God, we just come before you right now. We just we just want to repent, Lord. If there's been any offensive way within us, God, we just lay it down right now. We surrender to you afresh right now, God. Lord, purify our hearts, purify our minds, cleanse us, purify us, put us through that refining fire, Lord. We will embrace it. We want to be the ones that say, Lord, I'm willing to go through the fire to grow in my maturity with you. I'm willing to go through the fire to be more like you. Lord, that I can be the man or the woman that you have desired for me to be, that you've called me to be.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

So right now, Lord, if there's any offense that anybody is carrying toward a brother or a sister or anybody at all, Lord, I just pray right now, God, that you help them release it. Release the offense. Forgive that person in their heart, God. Their salvation may depend on their ability to forgive, God. Help them to release the offense and forgive. And I pray, Lord, for reconciliation, Lord, to come between offended brothers and sisters, God, that unity can be restored in the body of Christ. That the anointing that comes with unity can flow once again, God, that that tap can be reopened, God, and the flood waters of heavenly anointing can flow upon that relationship, God. I pray a blessing, Lord, over the body of Christ, and we pray for unity in this hour. Lord, we pray that you tear down the walls of division, that the enemy has tried to raise up, God, that the spirit of division, Lord, that's always working overdrive within the church, God, to to dilute it and keep it powerless, Lord, that we would be mature enough to see these offenses, Lord, as opportunities to grow. And that we would embrace the challenge, Lord, and that we would first check our own hearts and ourselves and our motives and repent, Lord, and get right with you. And then we would go to the other person, Lord, and seek reconciliation and repent to them and just try to be those godly um men and women, Lord, that you've called us to be to live that life of Christ, God. Help us to overlook offenses, God. Lord, if it's just something petty that the enemy wants to use to get us in our flesh, Lord, let us brush it off our shoulders and overlook the offenses, God. Not everything is worth getting upset about, God, because at the end of the day, you are our perfect provider. You care for us and you use all things for our good, even when people seek to hurt us and harm us. So we praise you, God. We thank you for this word. Thank you for Lindsay and her ministry, God. May you bless it. May you bless this podcast. May it reach the people that need to receive it, oh God. In Jesus' mighty name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Amen. Thank you, DJ. Thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_05 41:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Thank you for joining me on this episode of My Father's Business. As we strive to understand our divine purpose and align our lives with God's will, I encourage you to seek his face and his guidance in every step you take. May He bless you with clarity, strength, and a deeper understanding of your identity in Him. Until next time, remember you were created on purpose for purpose, and it's time to rise up, live intentionally, and embrace the unique plan God has for you. God bless