Peptides and Bodybuilding with Nick Bagley IFBB Pro Coach

🎓 ABOUT THIS VIDEO
In this episode of the OptiCast, Nathan and Aubrey welcome Nick Bagley, a well-known figure in the bodybuilding community, to discuss the complexities of bodybuilding, particularly focusing on the use of peptides, the importance of mental resilience, and the role of GI health in overall performance. The conversation delves into the science behind peptides, the risks of overuse, and the necessity of understanding the body's responses to various compounds. Nick emphasizes the importance of building sustainable habits and the need for a holistic approach to fitness and nutrition, encouraging listeners to focus on long-term progress rather than quick fixes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I don't see that many people come to me with too many peptides. Not in the not not in the world that I live in. The world that I live in, most of the time when somebody's taking too much stuff, it's gonna be androgens. It's gonna be steroids and and growth hormone and that sort of stuff. So the the the number one, but we can extrapolate out from the same thing, right? Anytime we take too much of any particular product, there's going to be spillover, right? Within the context of what I typically deal with is people taking too much gear, right? To a certain degree within bodybuilding, uh escalating milligrams is important, right? And taking enough androgens to build enough muscle to to be a competitive bodybuilder takes uh doses, right? I I get that. But the problem is is once once you start going down that rabbit hole of like, all right, 1500 work great. How about 3000? All right, how about 4500? All right, how about six thousand? And it's like there's I mean, you there's nobody stopping you from fucking taking as much as you want, but that also doesn't mean it's gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

This podcast right here is just for instance for main purposes. I'm not a medical doctor, not a nutritionist, or a personal trainer. I am barely unqualified for operated toaster. As Ruth Lane were so wisely said, I don't know shit about fuck. So don't trust me, don't listen to me. We're here just for shits and games. And if you trust me with health advice, then that's just natural selection at work. Don't do drugs, always listen to your GP, and with that disclaimer out of the way, let's get started.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

Guys, welcome to another episode of the Opticast with me, Nathan, and where we show you exactly what the problems are with your current approach and growing muscle and just trying to stay lean, and most importantly, what you're gonna do instead to maximize your results and minimize the risks that come with this journey. And today, we have with us a very special guest who's very well known in the bodybuilding world for his no-nonsense, science-backed and not science-based, science-backed, long-term physique transformation, like his emphasis on building habits that like actually lasts a lifetime, and rather than just chasing a bunch of quick fixes and protocols for this and that, it just it's just uh amazing to have him with us. He's the founder of the Long Haul Fitness, which is an online uh bodybuilding prep coach with the team Saga Coaching and an in-person trainer at Destination Dallas, still, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Uh yes, I'm out in Dallas. I'm not with Saga Coaching. Okay, you're not with Saga Coaching anymore? Yeah, so long haul fitness is is my coaching company. I was with Saga for a short period of time, and then there were some things that happened that I decided to step away.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

Okay, okay. Well, I need I need to update my notes, man. God damn it. You're good, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

All good, brother. All good.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

He's uh uh Nick's appeared in a bunch of a bunch of podcasts, and I definitely recommend you guys go check out his other interviews. He's discussed everything from like the the mentality, like the hustle mentality, the downsides of that, mental health and competition, female prep, or the the hormonoshifts that come with that, like to his own decisions, which I thought was very interesting on stepping away from bodybuilding after like placing very solidly in classic physique and open, which is which is impressive. Anytime that I see someone doing it in open and classic, I'm I'm always fucking impressed. And he's known for saying like some things that I absolutely love. I just stole one other quote from him just now before we started. But he says, deadly consistency is the only thing you're missing that will drastically change your physique, and reminding everyone that the achievement of a goal is far less enjoyable when you forget to enjoy the process. I fucking love those two quotes, man. So uh please um help us welcome our one and only Nick Bagley to the Opticast. Nick, thank you so much for joining us, bro. How is everything going on your end?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

You're you're saying quotes that I don't even remember saying.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

So it's uh it's great. I got citation.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Dude, let's uh let's get started like on everyone's favorite topic of the moment. Peptides. So so the the first thing, and he's like, of course, right? Like, and then the first thing I want to know, like out the gate, is this like someone is running 20 different peptides, but they're feeling fine, their sleep is good, their blood pressure is doing okay, right? Like, what's actually wrong with doing you know 20 different peptides and stacking all of this stuff if we don't have any noticeable or like visible side effects?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

I mean, there's two answers to that question, because one, there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, if there's if there's no side effects and your blood works fine and you're not having any issues with it and you're getting the result that you want, I mean, technically run as many as you fucking want, right? But the I think the the biggest issue here is that most of these things don't have research that is backed by human data. And a lot of the claims that they make are based off of things that don't really fully go all the way. You know what I mean? Like they speculate that this pathway does this and it causes this reaction. And sure, let's let's say, let's say that they've got that part right. Let's say that they are completely correct in the mechanism of action. They don't know what other cascade of effects. It's not like once we change one thing, it doesn't just like okay, now it's a domino and it hits the next one, and it hits the next one. It's more like a shotgun and it just kind of like shoots things out, and we don't know what all of the exact effects are. So, yeah, maybe something like SLU is a very popular one, for example. I like Slough, I use it, I've used it with athletes, but there's only studies in rats, and the doses that people will talk about are a wild fucking range. And the reality of it is is like, yeah, cool, we're extrapolating data from what we saw in rats, but like we'd also don't know what else could be happening that could be an issue. You know, the cardarine. People are using cartarine like crazy for a while, and then all of a sudden a study comes out, it's like, hey, it might cause cancer, and it's like, mmm, shit. You know, so it's it's a lot of that, you know. And I don't think that necessarily means that we should uh be terrified of these things, but I think it means we should be cautious and we should understand why we're applying them. And I think that's the biggest issue, is is people don't really get why. They don't understand the purpose of it beyond this influencer online said this is gonna help me burn body fat. You know, and this is this is why I had uh Dwayne Jackson on my podcast a couple of weeks back to talk about this, where it's like, do you even know when you're supposed to deploy these things that ramp up AMPK that could actually be slowing down your off season? Like that it's it's it's all cont uh contextual. So yeah, if you're not seeing like if you're not seeing any negative side effects, then sure it's not a that that big a deal now, but we don't know what it's gonna look like in uh five years, ten years, twenty years, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Are there any less obvious signs that you've seen with people who are stacking peptides like that you can already kind of pick up on? So what would be the things like system-wide stress, signaling conflict?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

It depends, it depends on what we're talking about because like when when when people say peptides, there's a large group of things that are lumped into the word peptide that like not everything that is in the list of peptides is a GLP. RETA is not a peptide, it is a GLP compound made by a pharmacy, right? So it's a matter of like what is it that we're looking at. And to be completely honest, like my mentor Dom Couza had to like really convince me that that some of these things were were good, and I was just the I'm still of this mindset with peptides. I like peptides, I use them, I take them right now. I have a sponsor and I make money from it. So like I like peptides. My problem is that oftentimes the doses and amount of time that we had to take this for the for the person who's not getting a deal like I am, like it's fucking expensive. And you gotta take a shot every you gotta take a shot every day. And then the other thing that you don't you don't fully understand is how are you reacting to it. So like I've tried a couple different ones and gotten really poor skin like rashes just from taking the product. So it's like you don't know what you're gonna respond to. So as far as what I have seen, I have not seen too much in other people because I've only ever applied a couple of things here and there. And it's I'm a very cautious person when it comes to clients, and it's something that I'm very upfront with with them. It's like if if that's not what you want, I'm the wrong person to communicate with. You need to go talk to somebody else. I'm okay with testing limits to a degree, but I'm not stupid. But personally, what I can tell you is that I went through a period of time where I was using like cell inc and simax and methylene blue to try and like get more productivity out of myself and really be able to lock in on things and crank out more content, crank out my check-ins better and and be more efficient in the process and whatnot. And I ended up in a spot where I was giving myself panic attacks on a regular basis. So bad that it was like like I pulled over to the side of the road and had to fucking EMS check me out because I thought I was having a fucking heart attack. So the the reality of the situation is is like you can you can cause damage with these things, and it it is what it is. I'm glad I figured it out. But it took me a long time to figure out exactly what that weaving thing was. I had to pick apart each and everything I was doing until it was like, okay, well, it's this, you know, and it because it wasn't obvious. Because it was it wasn't like, oh, I put this in and immediately gave me this thing, it was something that built over time. Whereas like I had some small ones and all of a sudden had the worst one possible. It was like something has to change now because I can't keep doing this. Yeah, I mean, it's that, and then it's also like it's the it's the same thing we see when somebody takes too much T3 or takes too much clambuterol or those kinds of things, where like if you take too many of these fat-burning peptides, you're gonna end up in a spot where like the body looks deflated and stringy and you still look fat, even though you're using a bunch of fat burners. Like that's I think that's most of what I see. And then the other one that like I think I I think not enough people are putting enough weight behind is like the impact of REDA on your stomach. Of like, yeah, of course, the idea is to slow digestion, but like let's again not be fucking stupid, right? Because like we are seeing that people are paralyzing their stomach and ending up in the hospital at certain certain doses, and then that's not something you can really fix, you know. And and it's it's a matter of like, all right, do we need to run the pet the the the REDA from fucking week 16 when we first start the deficit? Or can you nut the fuck up and not stuff your face with stuff for a little while? And we use it at the end in very small amounts because it wears off fast. Like and speaking from personal experience, like one milligram worked great for a long time, and all of a sudden it fucking didn't. You know, and it was like, all right, I can go up, but uh, do I want to, you know?

SPEAKER_04 10:06

Yeah, dude. No, this is you're touching on so many things that I want to that I want to talk about. This is this is absolutely fucking great, man. Because that's that's the space that we deal in, right? It's uh I'm all about human optimization, peptides, cutting edge, all of this fancy stuff. But dear fucking Christ, people have no idea what the fuck they're even injecting. They're like, oh, I take methylene blue for focus. I'm like, but you know how that focus is made, like with methylene blue, like you know, like you're just overriding the electron transport chain. Like no, I just know that it helps me focus. I'm like, how much are you taking, bro? Because you know, like these doses can range a lot too, and it can it creates a quite a different effect, um, especially with things like Sumax. It's not a stimulant, right? So it's a little bit different, but methylene blue at high doses, I mean uh Climbutero at high doses, like all of these things, testofensine at high doses, man, it's I just feel like people are doing a disservice to their own body because they want to experiment, they want to do new things, they want to push the boundaries, but they don't even know which fucking buttons they're pressing. Yeah, you you know, and it's like why? So when someone comes to me and is like, hey, I want to take like SS31, and I'm like, which part of the electron transport, like complex one, complex two, three, four, or like the last part of ATP synthase, like, is that what you're trying to deal with? Or it's like, I don't know. I was like, then why the fuck are you considering a limo privatide? You're like, why, why? No, there's no reason for that. So, like, when you when you're looking at someone's protocol, they usually come to you probably already like taking a bunch of stuff. Like, what are some red flags that that basically make you go, like, okay, we need to actually remove stuff instead of adding more right now?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

The biggest thing is once we start getting to be honest, I don't see that many people come to me with too many peptides. Not in the world uh not not in the world that I live in. The world that I live in, most of the time when somebody's taking too much stuff, it's gonna be androgens, it's gonna be steroids and and growth hormone and that sort of stuff. So the the the number one, but we can extrapolate out from the same thing, right? Because anytime we take too much of any particular product, there's going to be spillover, right? So within the context of of what I typically deal with is people taking too much gear, right? So we start to like, yes, to a certain degree within bodybuilding, escalating milligrams is important, right? And and taking enough androgens to build enough muscle to be a competitive bodybuilder takes uh doses, right? I I get that. But the problem is is once once you start going down that rabbit hole of like all right, 1500 work great. How about 3,000? All right, how about 4,500? All right, how about 6,000? And it's like there's I mean, you there's nobody stopping you from fucking taking as much as you want, but that also doesn't mean it's gonna work. So so we start getting to it to a point where you have oversaturated things so far that you now spill everything over to other places that we don't want it, right? Because like there's androgen, there's androgen receptors in places other than your muscle, and that's why we have side effects. That's why these things come up. Acne, right? There's androgens are binding to the receptor that is on your skin, and you're called there, and there's a bunch of other things like that. It's why people lose their hair. It's like there's so many other interactions, and like that's that's not my realm. I don't know that interact, like, I'm not gonna be able to give you the cascade of effects. So anybody who's pissed off because I said it wrong, I'm sorry. But you get what I'm saying, is like there's spillover and you start getting side effects from these things that cause problems, right? And like skin irritation is one, so like the skin just kind of looks gross and thick or like really acne prone and oily. Sleep is disturbed, so they're they're not able to rest well. Anxiety, like usually it's it's can be very, very severe, like especially from androgens. People highly underestimate how much their anxiety is driven by the gear that they're taking, especially specific compounds. Like MPP for me is a no-go. Okay, I can't well, MPP's okay in low doses, but DECA is a no-go for me for sure, because it it just my anxiety just goes to the roof, and I'm a wet, sloppy, fucking disgusting piece of shit when I take it. So it there's always just gonna be spillover. So, like, if we look at the same thing with like any peptides, you're gonna end up in a spot where, like, like I said, you go from being really efficient to all of a sudden things are way too efficient and you're going the wrong direction. So, typically what you see is like if they are taking too many peptides, which for the most part, like you're not gonna take too much BPC, right? Like, it's just you're just not gonna. So, like that category we can put aside. So, the only other categories we can look at is like if you're maybe taking too much of the GH peptides or you're taking too many of the fat loss peptides. You know, like the the other ones, it's like I don't see anybody who is using a peptide outside of a cosmetic effect where they're like, let me take more, you know, you know what I mean? Like there's there's peptides for everything. And I think outside of the physique realm, you're not seeing people escalate these doses of these things. I think they're using them for what they're supposed to be fucking used for for the most part. It's just when it comes to physique enhancement, people immediately go, Well, I got results with this, so I must double it, and that means I get better results because I want it tomorrow. And it's like, well, that's definitely not how that works. So they're gonna abuse too many fat loss uh products, is what I was saying. And then they're just gonna end up in a spot where they just look stringy and disgusting and fat and not nothing's moving the right direction, but they're still losing weight. And it's like, well, you look worse and you're losing weight, so therefore something's not working. Yeah, something's off. That should that should be a red fucking flag right there that you're losing weight and you look worse.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Yeah, yeah. Especially if sleep quality is declining, if you're having like GI issues or sleep. Man, it's just such a good proxy to like use to measure whether you're having an effect or just like you said, spilling over. Because that's that's how I explain to people. It's like you fill up the cup, once you fill it up, like there's nowhere else to go. It's just gonna spill up, and what we call spillover is just side effects, they're just effects that we don't like. It's so but it's true, man. And the there's a lot of different uh like it's it's a different approach in peptides and and this stuff. Like, there are some people that experiment with higher doses, but it's warranted, right? So it ends up like SLU with the doses being like super high. I recently did an experiment with 400 milligrams a day. Um, and yeah, dude, uh, it was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

But that's like we fucked. I'd be fucked. Dude, my took a milligram and was a fucking sweaty, sloppy mess. It was disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

I don't think it goes linearly. Like, I think that taking a hundred or four hundred was pretty much the same effect. So, like, so like I didn't notice any different. I I measure my body temperatures after every meal, I measure fasted, I measure throughout the day. Like, I didn't notice any difference. Plus, I was taking plumbuterol, so it actually lowers your body temperature a little bit. Um, but like you don't see people pushing these things as much. It's usually PEDs and uh fat burners. And I I actually see uh fat burners and peptides as PEDs because they're literally enhancing your performance and your physique as well. But we have like separate categories that almost treat peptides kind of like supplements that you can just fucking pop, like vitamin C, you know? When it's like I mean honestly, you just don't know what the fuck you're injecting, you know. And with a lot of these things, you can't even tell what the effect is because you might not feel anything at all. You know, and if you're always just chasing a feeling is like the bodybuilder chasing side effects or the biohacker chasing that stimulation, that constant drive, it's like you're gonna fucking crash at some point. And I I think there's another like side to this as well of like people using peptides and and even PDs, fat burners specifically and GLP1 specifically, as sort of like an emotional safety blanket. So like I feel like people kind of feel naked without it because it's like, what am I gonna do? I don't have any tools, like I'm not gonna lose fat. And like, how do you go about like unwinding these like thoughts that are so fucking janked up and just like showing people like, hey, you're actually focusing too much on the wrong fucking you're focusing too much on the cherry on the cake, you haven't even built the cake yet. Like, we don't have cardio in place, we don't have a caloric deficit. Like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Like the thing is, the thing is, is um for a long time, especially in the bodybuilding space, it was you go on for a very specific reason and then you go off completely, right? And then somewhere along the way it turned into blast and cruise, right? And then that blast and cruise would would vary, right? Because people like, oh yeah, I'm on I'm on TRT, but TRT for them was test and primo, and like maybe a little anivar, just you know what I mean. So it was like just the pre-war was always there was always a reason just to continue to take something because they couldn't understand that like everything's gonna be okay without it, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it feels good to be on cycle and and the pumps are awesome and the strength is great and all those fun things, but like you gotta give your body a little breather, you know. You you gotta you gotta pull back and let that stuff relax. And I think now what we're seeing is like people are using peptides as a bridging type thing within my community, you know, of like, okay, well, it's my health phase, so like I wanna stay lean during this time after the show and like don't want to go crazy or whatever, so they'll continue just to keep taking fat-burning peptides after the shows and stuff, and then that'll morph into continuing to take it into their off season and so on and so forth. And then the next thing you know, you're just taking it all the time. And that's the same thing with like the guy who's like, Okay, the first time he ran a cycle, he pushed it really hard, and then he goes to TRT and he's actually doing just tests. Well, then the next time he does a cycle is like, well, maybe I don't have to just maybe I could do test in GH. And the next time it's like, all right, well, maybe I could just lower the primo for a little bit and I could still continue. So it's like it's gonna be back in eight weeks anyway. So yeah, so like the needle just keeps moving. So I think people are just too worried about not being able to take something and still be happy with themselves, you know what I mean? I think that's more the issue than it is anything else. And as far as like how do I go about it, I go about it exactly the way you said it. It's like this isn't gonna work, and I explain it, and I I just let them know this is where you're at, this is what we're seeing, and if you continue down that same path, this is what we're gonna get. And from there it's up to them. I can't do anything else after that. It is up to them to decide whether or not they are going to listen and do what I say, or if they're gonna decide that they want to keep rolling with it, you know?

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Yeah, but I I I find this to be one of the most important parts uh aspects of coaching, which is actually like you like if if like you, me, like we have access to pretty much whatever the fuck we want, and for really, really cheap. Like we can ru afford to run doses that are just uh catastrophically high of everything at the same fucking time. And like this like justification that starts happening, I was like, well, there's no reason to actually lower GH. And I'm like, yeah, dude, lowering inflammation. But anyways, like just there's no reason to like I can continue like pushing like 12 units during a health phase, right? And it's like if I'm gonna be too day contest, I mean I'm a bigger guy, so I need like 500 milligrams, or right, like that's more of a cruise back then than it was, you know, uh, you know, a proper like health phase or something like that. And you just start like justifying all of these things that are just allowing you to stay in your comfort zone because your comfort zone now is relying on a fuck ton of drugs. You're literally a drug addict.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I think it's also FOMO, right?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Yeah, exactly. It's like, man, what if I miss my game? What if I what if I get fat? What if I you know it's like, yeah, dog, then you know, if you get fat, we do a uh fat loss phase, and if you uh lose some gains, we're gonna gain them back. Like, stop sweating.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah. I mean, it and it's really a matter of like the individual and where they're at mentally within their journey, right? Because like we could say that, like, oh, the young guys don't want to listen to this, that, and the other. And it's like, I got a I got some really young guys who were doing some really stupid shit before they signed up with me, and now they listen and doing exactly what I told them. And so we could say that the young guys don't listen. Well, I also have fucking 40-year-olds who have done some really stupid shit who just didn't want to listen to what I had to say and they went and did something stupid and fucked it up. So it's like there you can't really like just put it on an age range, it's just the the individual, the individual. Like, are they going to be willing to accept that, like, hey, we're gonna be okay if we come off for a little bit? You know what I mean? And like this is one of those things that if you are having to deal with somebody like that, like if you've got a client who stubbornly doesn't want to listen about doses or taking less less amounts of whatever, what happens. You I need to back up some things first. So I need to have shown proof that something I said is gonna work, right? So, like, prime examples the this 19-year-old kid that I worked with this last year who went at Internationals, like his food was already getting really low, he was already getting really lean way too early, all this stuff. He was on a pretty big cycle, that sort of thing. And I told him straight off the rip, like, drugs are coming down, foods going up, all these things are changing. And he's like, dude, what do you mean? And I'm like, just listen. And two weeks go by and he's like, Holy shit, like this is changing fast. I'm like, Yeah, no shit, keep going. And so each time I would make a call that was something that didn't seem like was the traditional call, I would go, look at everything, look at the track record of every other call I've made so far. Have I been right? And he'd be like, Yeah, I'm like, okay, do it. So so anytime he doubted it, is like I had already shown him that I can do this. So if you just let me take this one thing here, if you just trust me and listen and try this thing that I'm going to have you do that seems counterintuitive to what you think you need to do, let me show you the results, and then we'll go from there. And then I can I can uh get into more depth with stuff of like, all right, now let me do this that really is gonna fuck you up and make you think that we really shouldn't do that when in reality it's actually what needs to happen. You know what I mean? I don't know if I explained that well.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

No, you you explain it perfectly. I I I remember talking to some people. Um, there was uh, you know, I had a client who um came to me with like severe issues with binge eating, but just like can't control it at all, right? Like, I didn't give you a fucking diet plan, and I didn't even give you macros, I just told you which foods to choose from, right? So it's like we're gonna start this thing slow, we're gonna stack these wins, and it's like, I know you want to just hop on Reddit, I know you just want to fucking take it because it's gonna be the cure for everything. And I'm like, bro, that makes you feel fuller. And for the majority of people, they stop eating when they feel fuller. You don't. You continue eating regardless whether you're full or not. So explain to me exactly how is it that you think that this is gonna help you? And that usually goes like, Oh, yeah, that that makes sense. Like it's it's probably not gonna help. And I'm like, Yeah, it's not gonna help because you have a brain issue, not a gut issue. Like, that's that that's a completely different thing. And like just these mic mic macro decisions or decisions that start like giving people buy-in into the process. Like, I remember one conversation that I had with someone that I thank God don't work with anymore, uh, but this guy was a fucking grown-ass, like 30-year-old guy who was carnivore, refused to eat vegetables, but it would eat like hot dogs and pizza. And I'm like, bro, you're not even carnivore, you're just retarded. And like, I I was I legit like said, like, bro, how about this? You've tried, because he said, like, okay, let me try doing this way for like three months and then we'll go from there. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You tried your way for 30 fucking years, and that landed you inside of my coaching team. Like, there is a reason why we're not gonna give it a try. You've given it a try, and you can look in the mirror and see the result of that. So now we're gonna give my way a try. And then once you're lean, then we can talk about it. It was like, no, man, broccoli causes cancer and shit like that. And I was like, I just don't think we can, you know, work together. But if you think broccoli causes cancer, but you're slamming Costco hot dogs, I'm sorry, man. I don't think I can help him.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, there's you'll run into some people, man.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Yeah, man, it's it's it's always interesting. Yeah, man, it's uh I think there isn't a a a certain like issue with too much information, right? Like, I'm I'm a guy that's studying every single fucking day. I I review flashcards of everything that I learned from Dom Cusa, from John Jewitt, from Justin Mahaley, like all of these people. Like, I have flashcards on their quotes and shit like that. Like, I am a fucking nerd. I do, I do believe that information accumulation is one of the main problems that people have because they are seeing these reels every time and these like carousels on their Instagram, on their TikTok. So their brain basically automatically recognizes that as if you already had that knowledge, which you don't. If you can't explain in your own words, you fucking don't. You know, like if you need a cheat cheat, you don't. And it's like, dude, like why are we so focused on just accumulating? Do you do you really think that the smartest people in the industry aren't working with someone? Like, all of the people who are smart as shit, they have someone in their corner because you're gonna self-sabotage all the fucking time, bro. You can't escape that shit. There's no peptide, there's no compound that can help you with that.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Um the the thing is, there's a difference between intelligence and experience, right? Because to to be to be completely honest, like one of the best coaches in the bodybuilding scene right now is Chris Assido. And you could you would struggle to find a human that is less scientific. Like, but he's one of the best coaches of all time, right? And and he just had two athletes win the fucking Olympia last year. So it's like as much as science is great and it it helps point us in in the right direction, I kind of don't give a fuck. Because each individual person that I'm dealing with is in and of itself its own scientific experience, yes, right, or experiment. Because the problem with every single study is no one is doing it on people who are bodybuilders.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Yeah, it's completely irrelevant to us.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And and bodybuilding aside, they're not doing it on people who have been training for 10 years already, who are following a decent diet, who are getting enough sleep, who are getting enough activity. Like they're they're putting Sally, who's untrained, into a thing, and they're going, This is what we saw. How the fuck does that have anything to do with you? Like I hate it, bro.

SPEAKER_04 27:43

Every time I see this thing, we ran an eight-week study on like trained lifters, and I'm like, shut the fuck up. Eight weeks is not even enough time for me to fucking finish jerking off, man. What the fuck are you talking about? Like, come on, man. It's uh yeah, the studies are the interesting thing is that on a lot on a lot of studies you see this happening, like with the trials of SS31, which is very well researched because it's an actual FDA-approved medication. It's like when they measure, because you can measure mitochondria efficiency on a lot of points. When they measured it on the rats that were actually healthy, they saw no improvement whatsoever on their mitochondria efficiency. So it's kind of like, man, like you might be optimizing some shit that is just literally just pissing away money because you're not like doing it for anything other than it's part of your identity to inject shit, you know? It's true, but I was wondering like, are is there any like peptide that you were like initially very skeptical about, but then it kind of earned like a real place in your toolbox?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

All of them, all of them I'm I'm telling you, man, Kooza took like a long time to convince me that that some of these would be beneficial, and it was finally like, all right, give me the information. And and he did, and I was like, hmm, okay, maybe. So I mean, all of them, and I'm still skeptical, and I've run them and I've used them with clients and I've seen responses, but I'm skeptical because it's like, well, we're already spending all this money on all these other things. Do I really need to tack on another two, three, four hundred dollars a month for these individuals just to get the results, or do I just need to diet them harder? You know, it's like, do you need to suck it the fuck up and be hungry? Like, it's it's one of those things, so it's like, is it worth it? That's individual, you know. It's like, does it do we have to do use these? No. For the long I had this is the first year where I have consistently used them with people ever. And like I've I've think I've proven I can get people in shape, and like well before that, like we look at uh talk to the guys who competed in the 90s, the early 2000s, like while these things may have existed, some of them may have existed back then and whatnot, but they weren't talked about, they weren't used. This isn't what the guys were doing to get in that kind of shape. So it's like we can still do this without peptides. But if you're in a spot where you would like to use an to an ex to experiment, because that's literally what it is, and you have the dispensable income and we can move the needle, cool, let's use a couple. But that doesn't mean that uh we add SLU or we let we add MOTC and SS31, and then because you saw a video on SLU and Five Amino, that we add those as well. Like you you need to understand that like ramping mitochondria endlessly is a game that doesn't that you don't win in. It's like, well, yeah, maybe because you've ramped yourself too fucking far, man.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

Yep, yep, yep, dude. No, a hundred percent. And I I see um I see bodybuilders doing that with supplements, so like suppressing reactive oxygen species for an instance, uh, like just way too much with antioxidants just cranking everything up all the time. And it's like, what, like, how much damage do you think you're like causing to your system? Because we can actually measure this on blood work and then utilize supplements and peptides as needed, not as preventive care. But we're kind of taking like, you know, there was this time that everybody was taking metformin, everybody was taking thalmasartin, and it was like you don't have high blood pressure, you don't have diabetes, like you're everything is fine. Like, you know, talk about AMPK, like SLU is a PPAR delta agonist, so it acts indirectly by supporting mTOR. Metformin is like directively, like straight up just AMPK 100%, you know, and like bodybuilders were just fucking taking it for no reason.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

And it's just don't start talking about the black method. Fucking Victor will show up and his demon will chase us.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

So yeah, well, you don't you don't think it's a good idea to give a uh you know recently joined a gym female some you know humologue to before training? I mean it's super safe.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah, I mean, like I certainly think that there's benefit to some of those things, and like metformin has has its has its place, just like Telmasartan does and whatnot, but yeah, 100%. Like use it when it's necessary. Yeah, you don't have a you don't have a blood pressure problem. Why are you taking a blood pressure medication?

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Dude, yeah, I was surprised because I I pulled like in my previous health phase, I literally pulled everything. Like I'm not wasn't even taking vitamin C. I was like, bro, I'm taking fucking 50 pills a day, I'm just gonna actually give it a break. And like I felt so fucking good just on PRT.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Yeah, so there's a few things that I see people do when it comes to supplements, and like even as a coach myself, I've I've done it where it's like, okay, we we need these health supplements because uh like the these can help, right? But then next thing we know, we're taking so many pills that like you kind of feel like shit in the morning, yeah. And you're wondering why, right? It's like, well, because you took 70 fucking pills, and then like all the extra, it's not just the ingredients that you're taking, it's all the extra stuff that is in the pills that compounds over time and gets irritated. So it's like, okay, do we now space this out to where you have to take it multiple times a day? Are you gonna remember to fucking do that? So, so it's that. So, are we do we really need to use every single health supplement, or can we use some very specific things? So that's first and foremost of like you take too many supplements, you're gonna piss your stomach off. Second, are you actually using your labs to determine what supplements you need? Or when you went to look, Revive is my my health supplement sponsor, and I have caught myself many times just scrolling through, going, Do I need this? Do I need that? Like, and that's what most people are doing. They go in there for a very specific thing of like a multivitamin omega's, and the next thing you know, they bought a cortisol product when they don't have a cortisol problem. So it's like that's that's the issue, is like they're just you're blanketly throwing things out there. And it's like, as much as I want to immediately tell somebody, like, oh, we should get these supplements because it's gonna help you with this thing that I think is what it is, it's like, well, let's not just think that's what it is, let's back it up with information so that I'm not shooting in the dark, hoping something happens.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Yeah, yeah, dude, 100%. I I I like that a lot. And I've been I've been like now going over my phases throughout the entire year, and I map out these like microcycles of like four weeks at a time. So I have like, you know, I'm gonna focus on liver support, I'm gonna focus on my, you know, my joints, I'm gonna focus on my heart. So I'm not popping out all of these pills all the fucking time because people forget they also rely on transporters that sometimes are necessary for the same thing. So you're absorbing even less. And because you don't have enough substrates available, like you also don't have the capacity to even use all of these things. So, like breaking it down, it also creates like for myself, like for a client like me, it creates a lot of like buy-in into the into the mindset of like, oh, I don't have time to waste. I only have four weeks to focus on my liver. I only have two weeks to focus on senescence. I only, you know, it just it and I find that to be so much easier and cheaper, so much cheaper than you know, just fucking running everything around. Because if you think about it, you need support for everything, right? Like we all do liver, kidney, brain, heart, mitochondria, insulin, fucking, you know, like everything. And it's like, man, like how many GI supplements do you need to take before you like realize that like some degree of bloating and burping, it's it's it's normal. Like some degree of this is part of the digestive like system, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Like that's you know the thing that I don't think people fully understand is like if your stomach's not working well, it doesn't matter how many pills you put in it, it's not going to absorb it correctly, you know, and without putting a name on it because it's his information to to put out or not. Uh I have a very specific bodybuilding friend that was going through GI problems who got labs done, his estrogen came back like in the hundreds, and it was super high, and he was already on a good dose of AIs close to a show, so they ramped them up more, they pushed the AIs more, and they got labs a couple weeks later and his estrogen went up. And it was because his his gut just wasn't absorbing anything, it wasn't absorbing and eliminate, it wasn't it wasn't absorbing the medication, and and then he wasn't also eliminating estrogen through his just through his GI tract, you know? And it's like if you put yourself in a position where your stomach is compromised, it doesn't matter how many supplements you put in there, you're just fucking making expensive shit.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah, no, literally. And I dude, I talked to a lot of people who have no business eating like 7,000 calories a day, and they're like, Yeah, man, I just like need a lot of food and I'm so sick of it and I can't take it anymore. And I'm like, do you have like a coated tongue? Like, do you are you bloated like when you wake up? Like, is the bloating get worse like throughout the day? And it's like, yeah, I was like, you have cybo, bro. Like, like you need to fix that because then you're gonna be back to eating 3,400 calories, and you're actually going to absorb that. Like your muscles can't utilize something that's literally just running through your system. It's like you're popping activated charcoal all day long and it's just binding to it, you know, and just fucking preventing it from absorbing absolutely everything. But on the note of like us talking about the GI and everything, that's like one place that I see of like a lot of issues coming up is uh GLP1s, right? It's uh like I feel like people really don't understand like the problems that you create by letting food sit in your stomach for way too long. Like it's you're you're not made for that. That's one of the reasons why if you just ramp up protein or fiber way too fast, you're gonna have issues because the food's gonna sit there, it's gonna ferment, then you basically start releasing antibodies, you release antibodies, there's inflammation. When there's inflammation for a long period of time, you have chronic inflammation. Congratulations, you have licky gut. Like you just gave yourself fucking licky gut by trying to get a six pack. How stupid is that? You know, like and and I and on the psychology note that we were talking about, like you mentioned on a podcast that like GLP1s basically became like outsourcing like all of their discipline to a bottle. And I feel like some bit sometimes people do that with coaching, where they like expect there to be drive and motivation and like wanting to do the work when it's like I'm just a fucking GPS tracker, bro. You're driving this car, you know. Like I think like one thing you mentioned on the podcast, which was something that I wanted to hear from you, is was like, hey, you need to learn to suffer, right? And I I you need to learn to like sit with hunger and stuff like that. And I I used to not agree with that, and I now I do agree with that. I actually think that trying to avoid hunger is one of the major pitfalls that people have because they chase fullness and fullness is unending. Like there's literally no end to full. You're you can always add just a tablespoon more of something, you know, and like it's it's I I there's a difference between just suffering for suffering's sake of just like, oh, just macho man, which is which is usually just drama that gets like dressed up as grit and discipline. But there's also like something to be said about actually learning to sit with your feelings, to know that you don't need to act on them impulsively every single fucking time they're peeked their head out, you know. Like, how do you like deal with this? Like helping people navigate the the fact that like you will need to suffer. You will suffer regardless of how many drugs you're taking. Like, all of these people who are like, Man, I'm stepping at the Olympia and I'm fucking chilling, man. Like, this is the best prep I've ever had. I was like, that motherfucker's suffering. That dude is hungry 24-7. Like, regardless of how good they feel, their good is worse than their your worst day right now.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

How do I deal with it? I I deal with it the same way I deal with everything else, is I just tell people up front, if you are planning to sign up with me, you need to expect that the level of work is going to be more than what you think it is going to be. Right? Because uh this might be a fun experience for you, and you might really just want to get on stage and enjoy yourself and this, that, and the other. This is my fucking job. There are people who are watching my social media on a regular basis who want to see how shredded I can get people, and every time I fuck up, that's a that is a bigger nail in my cap than every single time I nail it because people are going to focus on the negatives. So I'm I'm very upfront with people. It's like I I am not here to hold your hand, I am not here to be your best friend, I am not here to please you, I am here to get a result. I'm not gonna be a dickhead to you. I'm going to make sure that I support you in every possible way I can, as a coach should, but there's going to be a line to that. There's going to be a line in the sand of like, hey, look, I'm here to support you, but like I'm not your therapist, I'm not your best buddy. Like, this is my this is my job. So I'm just up front with people of like, if you if this is your first show or whatever, if it's their first, usually if they've done more than one show, they kind of understand. Even if they didn't really get in as good of shape as they should have, typically they're like, Yeah, it was still really hard, right? Like, even if they didn't get in really good shape, they probably pushed harder than they ever have. But I'm just gonna preface it up front of like, look, this is what you showed me of what you can did last time on stage. This is not the standard that you need in order to be competitive. Do you want to be competitive or do you just want to get on stage for shits and giggles? Most of the time, people are like, I want to be competitive. It's like, okay, well, then we can't do this again, which means you're gonna have to step it up, which means I'm gonna have to push you, which means you're not gonna like me for a little bit. But that doesn't matter because the day we get that award in our hand because you kicked everybody's fucking ass, you're gonna like me a lot. So right now I don't care. And and I'm just up front with people about that. And like, I will if you give me 100%, I'll give you 150. And that's that's the way I always work. It's it's as soon as somebody wants to just kind of like, oh, I think I want, like, yeah, I'm kind of in and kind of out, it's like, yeah, so am I then. Like, you're not gonna get a hundred percent out of me if you're not doing this, you know. So um, I just try to preface that stuff up front of like, if you're doing this, this is not a walk in the park, this isn't just a weight loss thing. So if you want to just lose some weight, let's not worry about a show and let's just get you in the habits. But if you tell me you want to do a show, buckle the fuck up and let's go. But the other thing there is like it doesn't really matter how much I tell them because until you have done it, you just don't know. And there's there's no amount of podcasts or or conversations that can be had that can prepare you for what's to come. That's just it. Because it it's not just the diet, it's not just the the the energy that gets put in, it's also like uh life still happens, you know. Like people die while you're in prep, you you lose relationships while you're in prep, you lose jobs while you're in prep, and it's up to you whether or not you continue to do the thing you said you were going to or not. And it's a matter of weighing out whether that's what you actually need to do at that time. If you lost your job and there's no job on the the horizon, you're not sure you're gonna be able to pay rent next month, you should probably fucking take a step away, man. But if it's something where it's like, well, my girlfriend broke up with me, but I still absolutely love this and I don't care, I'm just gonna keep pushing forward. Yeah, buckle the fuck up, let's roll, right? So it it it's all context there, but yeah, I think I answered that as best I can. Dude, no, that was that was fucking great.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

So balancing the use of peptides, PDs, compounds in general with the discipline factor, do you find that people use them as crutches? And if so, kind of what's the psychological damage of that? Or even using them too early in the process? Or you know, somebody's just starting out and they're already using a shit ton of peptides and everything and compounds. Does it warp their perception of reality?

SPEAKER_04 43:07

Um like of like what to expect in terms of like I every time that I cut I use cleanse, so I'm expecting that I'm gonna drop weight at this rate always.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

It's kind of like the they've been training the whole been training for 10 years already.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

So like they come in with preconceived notions of what needs to happen as far as drugs are concerned. Yeah, I mean, look, I've dealt with that a lot, and you know, there's there's plenty of times where we just don't see eye to eye on it, it just doesn't work out, you know, and it's it just is what it is, but like I can I can be okay with that, I can be okay with the decisions that I made. I also, again, if someone is coming to me with that stuff, like this is why I screen all my calls. I have a call with the individual before we get in get into it, because it's like I'm gonna ask a series of questions based on the responses that they gave me, and it's fairly obvious when somebody's not willing to budge on. On their stance. It's usually like, yeah, you're gonna be a pain in my fucking ass. So this is probably a bad idea. So, like, to be completely honest with you, I don't deal with a lot of that. I do deal with people who come to me who are taking a lot of shit and I go, hey, well, this isn't gonna work, and they go, Yes, sir. And they're like, I I'm here to learn and I'm here to listen. And that's what I've attracted, and that's that I'm very blessed with that. But you know, I also take a stance when it comes to any compounds that we start at the minimum, we start at the smallest amount, and there's especially at the the pro level, there's this this idea that like if you're not taking a thousand milligrams or more of androgens that you're not doing anything. And my my thing is is and I I talked with with uh Koza and a couple other people about this too. It's like, okay, let's say you're you have been on a health phase and you have been on 200 milligrams of testosterone, you have been on legitimate TRT and nothing else. Why then do we need to immediately go from 200 milligrams to 750 milligrams of test and 500 milligrams of Mastron and six IEs of GH and like what that does not make sense to me? So what I tried to do is go, cool, let's just add another compound onto that 200 test. Cool. Now let's escalate the test. Cool. Let's now let's escalate that other compound. And it's it's a cascade of effects because it's like, well, if we're coming off a 200 test and we've been off during like eight to 10 week phase, if I just put in a little bit of shit, we're gonna see a response. And then I can add more when we need it. So it's like it doesn't have to immediately be like let's ramp this as high as we can and then continue to stack drugs on top of it. It's like the goal is to like slowly nurture and move this thing this direction based on the timeline that we have at hand, not like a laid out like at week 20, we take this drug. At week 18, we take this drug. Like, I don't do that, but I use it, I I look at it based off of like, okay, yes, we are in the 10-week out range. So here is a list of products we could potentially be using. And does it make sense for this individual? Makes are they tell are they telling me that they're really struggling with money right now? Yeah, probably not a good idea for me to tell them to go buy another fucking compound. Are they on their first cycle ever? Okay, I'm not gonna put them on trend. Like it's these kinds of things that I have to have the the conversation with myself on and then tell them this is why I want to do this, this is what we're going to implement. You don't need XYZ because of this, right? And with any of these situations, when it comes to peptides or it comes to steroids or it comes to food, or insert whatever the fuck you want there. The thing that always is going to help somebody if they are willing to be helped is explaining the why, right? The more people can understand the why behind decisions that are being made, the more they're going to be willing to actually follow those decisions, right? I think one of the worst things that you see from coaching, at least from the the earlier years, like the early 2000s and stuff, would be you send pictures and you get a response back that says, okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Okay. And like, look, there's going to be people who argue that that's a better way of doing things, and for some, yeah, that's great. But like, me personally, I want to know why I'm doing things. I don't want to just be given a thing and go, yes, sir, I'm not a fucking idiot. Like, I want to be informed so that I understand your thought process behind this. Because maybe the way I look at it isn't the way you look at it. And maybe if we come together on it, now I can fucking learn something, right? Versus people just kind of blindly just being robots and just doing what they're told because an email told them.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Well, I think that there's some benefit to it's kind of like a superpower, the people that can do that if they're in the right hands. So somebody that was like a blind robot that would come to you.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

Dude, my military guys, my shooters, my law enforcement, like fuck, they're just robots.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

But a pair, I think pairing those two things together, like from my perspective, you know, Nathan's my coach, so I do come, I don't say yes, sir, but I do come to it, and I'm like, okay, like let's go, I'll do whatever needs to be done. But my brain is always like curious, and I I just can't get past this. Why? Why? You know, I want to ask the questions, I want to understand the big picture.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

I've I've um I've run into this a number of times here recently, and I I say this to people constantly. It's like they will want to ask me a question, and they lead with, I'm not questioning the program, but I have a question about this. And it's like, why do you think that I think you're questioning the program? Yeah, you are doing exactly what I fucking told you to do, is communicate. I send out a video after I make a program for somebody, I send out a video that's usually anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes, breaking everything down that's in that program, the why behind it. At the end of it, I go, if you have questions, let me know. I literally tell you to ask me questions. Like, this is the whole this is why you pay me money. Like this is the whole thing. You are not questioning me, and like I think it's it's a matter of like uh people have been traumatized by shitty coaches over the years because like they they were probably dealing with somebody who was that person that like snapped at them because they asked a question and go, Why are you questioning me? Just do what you're told. And it's like, well, that's fucking that's not coaching, that's you being an asshole. Like, that's that your your job is to coach and explain things. If you cannot fucking take the time to explain it to someone who is paying your fucking bills, get the fuck out. Go away.

SPEAKER_04 49:38

Yeah, dude, 100%. I I I I've talked about this on the podcast before. There's this girl who had a coach, first prep, natural. So it's gonna be rough, right? And she was just wanting to know why she was spending like 400 bucks a month on supplements. So she just asked, like, hey, why is it I'm taking like this and and that? And she said, Google it. And I was like, bro, if I'm dropping hundreds on you every month and you tell me to Google it, I'm I'm gonna fly over to you and smack you in the face, bro. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's it's disrespectful. I I think to like people who are intellectually curious, like us, you know, it's like if someone tells me, like, hey, I just need to know what to do, don't even bother explaining, I'm like, fuck yeah, let's do it. Just make my life easier. But if you're curious and want to learn, like that's why I tell people like it's not so much of a coach, it's like a coaching mentorship, because I want you to learn this shit as we go, you know. Like, I don't want you to be dependent on coaching for the rest of your life, you know. It's like I I want you to actually be able to do shit on your own. And then as you face bottlenecks and stuff like that, hit me up and let's fucking work on it again, you know? Yeah. Like just switching gears back to the GI here, because like I don't know what it is about GI like studies, but uh like it cost me so much mental bandwidth to convince people that it's a good test to run uh whenever it's warranted, right? Like we're seeing a bunch of effects. We tried a couple of quick fixes and stuff, and nothing really sticked. It was like, okay, we need to we need to actually take a look. And it's like it's it's like people don't understand, and I don't think they do. Like the role of the GI is in like every fucking bodily function, everything you ingest that's gonna be dispersed through your body, and it's gonna go to your mitochondria, right? Like it's it's gonna first go through your GI. Like, can you walk us through like why monitoring the GI health is is so important for us that just want to be fucking big and lean and like what are some things that you start like seeing that you're like, okay, I think it's time for us to actually like pull pull some tests and just like see what's actually going on under the hood.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

I mean, it's always gonna be contextual, it's always gonna be a matter of like what side effects the individual is dealing with. People push back on it because it's a lot of money. I mean, that's the number one thing. I mean, usually they're five, six hundred bucks to get a GI map, and it's kind of annoying, and you gotta shit in this fucking thing, and and you you think about fucking fry containers and it makes you a little like sketched out when you go to in and out the next time, you know what I mean? So it's like people don't want to do it because it's just like people don't go to the doctor because they kind of don't want to know. They kind of are they are they're hoping that they can just take a product that they saw on the internet and it's gonna fix the issue. When the reality of it is, is like if you are bad enough off with the GI problem, you are probably about to have one of the hardest times of your life fixing it. Like it's not fun, usually, and and most people don't have the discipline to fully, fully fix that, right? Because like while you feel like shit, you're not gonna want to eat the right foods while you're killing all this stuff off, you're not gonna have energy, you're not gonna want to go to the gym, your stomach's still gonna feel like shit. So you're just gonna want to eat whatever's convenient, and that will make things worse. So trying to stick to a diet plan when your stomach feels like shit is even harder. So I think it's a matter of like facing the reality that they're about to have to do something incredibly difficult that they might not be able to fully commit to is probably the biggest issue for them. But when it comes to like a client or bodybuilder or whatever, if like you already said it, it's like the GI the GI tract is involved with everything, like every single possible interaction that we have in our system, there is some link to the stomach somewhere. So, like it's really a matter of like how does that present itself? Like, what what are the issues they're having? Are they distended? Are they holding water? Do they now have an issue with estrogen because they're not eliminating it right? Like, it's it's all a matter of like what the side effects are, and then you just kind of have to approach it from there. Like, there's a million different things it could be. So it really just is based on what's what we're seeing in front of us. But I think um I think unchecked gut problems is part of why we see a lot of like distention in bodybuilding, why we see a lot of guys like start to fall off quickly after a period of time, like it they chase getting as big as they can, which means eating as much food as they can and taking to trust as much drugs as they can and training as hard as they can, and not understanding that all this creates systemic systemic inflammation, which then causes more problems. So, yeah, I think that's the yeah, there's just a lot of things that can come from a messed up gut. So it's like if we've done the basics, I have a checklist, I have a questionnaire that I have them fill out, and it's like somewhere around 30 questions that they go through and highlight, and then that's I have a cheat sheet about like if they answered this one and this one, it could likely point to this, and like we'll go through that stuff first, and like if it points towards us needing to dive deep and go, like, all right, do you have H. pylori, do you have SIBO? Do you have one of these issues? Then we'll go do testing. But if it's just like we have low stomach acid, we can test that shit at home, you know. So it's it's all a matter of like not everybody needs some like crazy antibiotic protocol to fix their stomach. Some people do need really simple things, but if you've tried to do all those simple things and you're still dealing with problems, yeah, nut up, pay the money, just shit in the fucking tray and send it off.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

You have someone that whose gut is already in a good spot and you're trying to maintain it and maintain good gut health during, you know, your growth or fat loss phase. Do you have specific maybe like two to three ground rules that they have to kind of maintain?

SPEAKER_02 55:07

Uh variety in the diet and probiotic foods. I don't I don't um I'm not big on like probiotic supplements. I don't think that um we know enough about the gut microbiome to be able to go take these specific strains and this number, and this is gonna cure everything. I certainly think that there can be use cases for very specific strains for very specific circumstances. I think that there is a uh benefit to things like that. The general individual who's just trying to improve overall stomach function, probiotic foods is probably one of the best ways to get it in the most balanced way possible. So, like start your day off with some kombucha, put some fucking sauerkraut and some meals across the day, or put some kimchi or whatever it is that you can tolerate and like and do that. And I'm I've been trying to convince more and more people to do that. So there's that, and then just variety of food. So like just not ending up in the the the meathead chicken and chicken rice and broccoli all the time, like making sure like we can use broccoli for sure, but the problem is like when we see people use broccoli on a regular basis, you end up with a lot of farts and bloating and stomach irritation and stuff. So it's like, all right, if you just fucking love broccoli that much, cool, have it once a day. But let's also have some spinach, let's also have some green beans, let's have some sprouts, let's have some some beets, let's have peppers and onions and all these different things, so that there's a variety of this stuff, and not just use rice-based carbs, like use sourdough bread and potatoes and all these different things like that, in order to make sure that there's a lot of different things going on in the system, not just chicken all the time, making sure there's a variety of different protein sources and fruits. I think fruits are huge. Making sure that people are eating fruits and vegetables, I think, is a very underrated thing that I think more people should be really implementing. Even people who are trying to push the limits as far as food is concerned. I think vegetables is something that often gets thrown out because it's just extra bulk that they don't want to have to work through. But I think they end up shooting in the shooting themselves in the foot long term rather than like in that moment, you know.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

Yeah, dude, a hundred percent. That's uh you nailed it. There's nothing nothing left to add there. I I just don't like for us to close this up with uh like more of an integrative approach on like how you work, like for myself, like everything is always gonna start in a mitochondria, right? Like it's it's that's the first thing that we're gonna do. And then after that is absorption and and detox, right? Like the the all of the phases of detox, um, just making sure that we have like the soil pretty much ready, like the filters of our system pretty much ready. And at that point, like then I can utilize like this this new system that we have in place to start like touching things like you know, basically establishing hormesis, which is like this balance of good stress to like a stress in a controllable environment to build some resilience in your system. And at like at that point, it's like, okay, now let's start thinking about hormones. Now let's start thinking about like your cycle stability and all this type of stuff. And like the last thing for me, not in terms of steps, but in terms of like the priority of all of this stuff, that's where like hypertrophy, fat loss, performance, and it's like that's where this is gonna live. So like it it it sh it sort of like allows me to have like these simultaneous domains, the domains that I'm like monitoring and and and checking at all times. And I don't have to create a dichotomy like between like what's more important, like is it like managing your stress or your sleep quality? Is it peptides or PDs? Is it training or is it diet? Like I find those like kind of I mean, come on, like no one's gonna build an impressive physique by just training hard or by just eating healthy food, right? Like you find that eating healthy food people at Whole Foods, and you find the people that don't fucking diet at any gym, they just you know they're a little bit bigger, they're healthier, but nothing impressive. Like in terms of you, like do you have like a like a like a series of things that you're like checking, or like um how do you how do you integrate all of this within like your own system, basically? Like what's what goes from like the most important thing, like long term to like the cherry on the cake, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

So like if somebody's coming onto my team, like where do I start with them as far as yeah? It depends on where they're coming from. So like we'll say there's two different people. We got one person who's not following a plan at all, and then we have somebody who is following a plan, right? So the person who's not following a plan at all is like I'm gonna put bare bones basic stuff together first, and I'm just gonna see how your body responds. Like, I'm not gonna, I I don't really when somebody first comes onto my team, like if they have a bunch of data and whatnot already, like they have labs and they have all these things to back up what they've done and whatnot, awesome, but like I kind of don't care. I want to know what's gonna happen as we go forward. Like, this is good information, this is stuff for us to hold on to for the future, just to see trends and whatnot. But like, I don't have any context to what you've already done with those. I can see the labs and whatnot, but like I don't know what you did to get them, get them there. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, right? So if they're not following anything at all, is like I put them on a baseline diet. You're gonna eat this amount of food every single day for the first five, six weeks. This is what it's gonna be. We're gonna get a baseline of cardio in, we're gonna get four to five days of training in a week, get two days of rest, we're gonna try and improve your sleep, we're gonna make sure you're well hydrated, make sure you're well fed, make sure your body is processing food well. Like the number one thing that I want to see in the first couple of weeks with anybody is that they're going, hey, I'm starting to get hungry. Like, that's what I want to see relatively quickly. So if they're not following anything, is like I'll put them on a baseline of just whatever, like I'll I'll ask them like what their food likes and dislikes and those kinds of things are, and I'll try to structure something that they will enjoy because that's is that's what they're going to stick to, right? But then if I have somebody who's already on a plan, for the most part, if they're on a plan, it's at least thought out in some manner, and they have been sticking to it for a while. So that means that they have already created habits around that thing. So all I want to do is take what they're already doing and just shift it. Just just turn it a little bit, right? Because, like, like I just made a program for a lady earlier this morning who dealing with perimenopause and dealing with pre-diabetes and all these different things. And the biggest thing I told her is like you're under-eating and you're overstressed. You're working out six days a week, you're doing cardio seven days a week, you're eating 1400 calories, you're barely getting any food. And this is this is exactly why you're seeing you, it's you're not perimenopausal yet. You can extend this for another couple of years. You have just run yourself into a hole. So it's like, but her meal plan, the the point of me saying that is her meal plan was not that terrible. It was just a matter of like, she had the the worst is when I get a female and all they have is carbs in a meal. There's no vegetables, there's no fat source, there's no nothing. It's just protein and carb, chicken and rice, and that's it. So she at least had vegetables, she at least had added fats in the diet and that sort of thing, but it was very skimpy on the the amounts and whatnot. So it's like, I need to get food in your system, I need to get stressed down, I need to do all those things. I just took what she was already doing and put my own modifications on it. She already had the structure, she's already used to this. I don't need to overhaul everything. Like it, I don't need to, I'm not so cocky that like I think that I have the most perfect way to do something. Right? If it has already been, if they are already used to it, it might not have been working, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. It just needs to be adjusted, it just needs to be shifted, and that's it. So that's kind of where I start with things. Like I typically am not worried about pulling labs or doing any in-depth dive into anything until the person's shown me that they can stick to it. If you can't stick to a plan for the first six weeks of me not making any changes while we figure out what your body's doing, why am I gonna pull labs for you? Why are you gonna waste that money? Because you're not, it doesn't matter. You're not gonna stick to what I need you to do anyway, so you're gonna continue to have skewed labs. So you either need to drop this idea that you have been doing things right and let me do my job, or we need to go our separate ways.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Yeah, dude, this is this is very good. And Nick, man, I mean, dude, thank you. This was an absolute fucking masterclass, man. We covered we covered so much, you know, and it it gives people a lot to think about, especially like the idea that like we need to build like long-term progress. Like that comes from like building resilience and mastering the basics, you know, before we reach out for a bunch of tools and stuff. If you guys are, you know, still listening and you guys want a deeper dive into his like non-BS long haul approach to coaching, like his Instagram, I believe it's uh Nick underscore bagley underscore. Yep, Nick Bagley underscore.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Yep, Nick underscore bagley underscore. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

Yep, yep, yep, dude. That's where he drops like a lot of content, like a lot of podcast snippets and a lot of videos, like in conversation with other people that I've learned a lot from. And um also, if you guys see the value in uh what we have today on this episode, like I know you did, uh, do us a solid, smash the like button, drop a comment with your biggest takeaway, like something like, oh, maybe your thoughts on like stacking peptides or like what you think about gut health and stuff like that. And also subscribe, you know, so you never miss an episode. We're building like a real community here, not just, you know, just dropping off content because I have nothing else to do, because I actually have a lot of stuff to do. So uh also, guys, stay tuned because next week we're gonna have a straight up fucking banger dropping with someone who's been like crushing in the trenches, has some fucking wild stories and some game changing insights. I'm really, really excited to like touch on like what we're gonna talk about next week. But for now, Nick, thanks again, dude. Thank you for your time. Thank you for bringing up this fucking heat and just dropping sauce after sauce, man. I really appreciate you. And uh until next time, you guys keep optimizing, keep training hard, keep thinking long term, and we'll catch you in the next episode. Peace out.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Peace.