Helping Kids Expand Their Diet Without Force

Kristine and Sarah discuss compassionate food expansion, picky eating, sensory sensitivities, comfort foods, peer modeling, and why children should never be forced into eating new foods. They explore practical ABA-informed strategies like Plate A/Plate B, gradual exposure, Pivotal Response Treatment, and the importance of collaboration between families, doctors, speech-language pathologists, dietitians, and behavior analysts. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to Acorns to Oaks. I'm Christine Dixon. I am a board-certified behavior analyst, and with me is the phenomenal Samaro. We have uh been on this quest to help families with children and adults that have these restrictive diets through food expansion. And there are several. We talked about escape extinction. We really don't do that with food. Um, I have seen that done in a clinic with a banana where they just put the banana to the child's face until he ate it. Um, I wasn't part of that intervention. And immediately, immediately upon seeing that, was like, I'm never gonna do that. You know, there's also pairing of both new foods and old foods that would look like raisins and pancakes, right? Your child's able to eat pancakes. I want to try to see if they'll eat raisins, so we mix them together, or pairing together uh different foods. Have you ran these simultaneously pairing of the non-preferred and a preferred food?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah. So uh one method comes out of a book that I enjoy. It's called plate A, plate B. And basically you have foods that I know that my child will like, and then foods that I want my child to try. Um, and little tiny, small amounts, right? So we're we're trying the new food. It doesn't mean that they're going to love it. It doesn't even mean really that they're gonna swallow it today, but we're building that familiarity. So that's one way of doing it. Then there's also the combination method, right? So you take a little bit of the pancake and a little bit of the raisin and see if we can eat it together. And again, really small raisin to start with, and then we sort of add more as we go. Both of these methods are trying to uh increase familiarity and reduce whatever sensory or um rule-governed behavior or just fear that we're experiencing slowly over time.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Baby steps, baby steps to greatness. That is our philosophy. But you know, that's right. Do no harm, baby steps to greatness. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah. So uh those are both uh good approaches in terms of of slowly expanding the diet. And it'll vary the response from one child to another. For some kids, it's not really that hard. And they'll they'll pick it up pretty quick once once they learn, like, oh well, this is what we're doing. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Um, you can throw a lot of vegetables on pizza. That's true. And children were like, I'll try it. Or, you know, cut up broccoli in a quesadilla has been very successful.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

That's a good one as well. I know people like smoothies, that's another way to kind of mix flavors. Um, but it's not gonna work for everyone. No, because some kids have like texture issues, texture issues.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

And we've dealt with that.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Absolutely, yeah. Flavor issues, um fear of certain stimuli. And not all of our clients have always been able to really express to us the re this is the reason why I don't want to try that food. Or it could be like they had a bad experience, um, an experience of choking, an experience of being nauseous or throwing up, and associated it with that stimuli. So it's important, I think, to be sensitive to those things and move very slowly, ideally in a preclinical way. So we have a social skills group that meets every week. We have a great time, we present fruits and vegetables, they're not forced to eat them, but they're having that uh exposure in a fun setting and they're experiencing their peers model eating those foods. And we've seen a lot of success with that.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

We have we have um we we when we started, it was like no one's eating grapes and carrots, and you know, now it's it's kind of breathtaking when you look out and you're like, there's 16 kids eating grapes and carrots together. Um and peers do uh play a role in food. So for instance, you know, if one of your friends is like let's go get sushi, it's like okay, right? Because it comes back to what you were saying is that there really is a social component um to how we look at food and and and our intake on food. The social component is so important, right? We have great conversations at dinner.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, mealtime is a very social time. Um, and it's it's a really important thing that I think I thought of when you were just saying that is that uh there are so many reasons why a kid may not want to eat a certain food. Yes. And we often, I think, jump to, well, uh, they're on the spectrum, so it must be a sensory issue, or it must be a rigidity issue of we like the same thing, it makes me feel safe. Or it could be um, I don't want to move away from this really fun thing I'm doing over here to do that. I don't really feel that hungry. I'd rather keep doing my fun activity. iPad. iPad, right? Um, but there can also be social, the social part is really hard, right? Sitting at a table and having conversation is really difficult for some of our clients. And and that might be part of why they're avoiding eating. So teasing that out, then also from physical issues, like do I have a trouble chewing and swallowing? Do I have a problem like coordinating breathing with swallowing? And that's when we need our speech NOT friends sometimes to assist us. Um Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

And we've worked a couple of cases like that when we're looking at um medical fragility and um, you know, unable to have solid foods. And we've worked from liquid to solids in very, very small baby increments. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

And I I think a lot of families when they struggle with feeding, get to a point where they have to put in a feeding tube. And that's devastating for families. However, with that feeding tube, the child is getting the nutrition that they need, and now we can move on to exploring diet expansion in a way that isn't going to be traumatizing because we're not going to have to force because they're getting the nutrition that they need. And then over time, we've had success with getting people off of that tube, which I think is a really uh crucial thing for families and for children to be able to be comfortable with what they're eating and at the same time getting the nutrition that they need. Um and again, I just can't emphasize enough how much we need a collaborative model between your doctor, your speech and OT, your behavior analysts, um, and also your registered dietitians.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

You know, the pre-mat principle, which is first eat your dinner, then get dessert, right? That's another empirical-based intervention. Um, that can work for some, but definitely not at all.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah. And especially works well for the kid that doesn't want to leave that activity. And that that's the reason why they're not eating their dinner or they're not eating those foods, is because I want to do this thing over here, which is more interesting to me. And for those that maybe don't have a big aversion, um, but they just prefer to not, you know, I think that the pre-MAC can work really well for those kids. Uh, if it is an issue of that is something that is so disgusting to me that if I put it in my mouth, I'm gonna throw up. I that might not be the right kid for that intervention.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Absolutely. And I would never recommend medically fragile or, you know, but yeah, maybe the kid that doesn't want to um Yeah, and and I I know you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

I you you've had a fabulous record working with families. I think that understanding the reason why can help to point us in the right direction for the intervention. However, there needs to be more research because we don't really have there's not really a tool that we can use that says, hey, this is the problem, use this method, right? Which I think would be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Interesting, like an assessment tool for um expansion to sort of uh help us indicate and hypothesize the function in a way that I like that. I'm gonna get the positivity, but never give up, never surrender.

unknown 8:30

You got it.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

I will never surrender. Never surrender. Never surrender. One of the uh interventions that has been really successful, and I'm so glad that uh I came to know and love this intervention is by the Kegels, Bob and Lynn. And this is uh their pivotal response trainingslash treatment food expansion program. That's been great for us, and uh it's really simple. Um, it starts with 30 foods that the parent wants the child to try. And then it is a very slow step-by-step process, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yes. So that is perfect for if there is a sensory issue, yeah. Um, to slowly uh become more used to that smell or that flavor or that texture, but in a way that is at the child's pace.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yes. And it's it's so ascent-based, meaning that the child has the choice each time. Um, but it starts, let's you know, say it's a strawberry. It starts with having the strawberry just on the plate, tolerating it on the plate, looking at it. Um, you know, even if it touches other foods. Uh and then um next it is smelling it. Right. So you're uh you're automatically getting used to at least one sense of the food.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah. Right. And the slow step wise from just looking at it to smelling it to eventually lippling it, chewing it, spitting it out, chewing it out, swallowing it. Yeah. And it ends with chewing, swallowing with no sign of displeasure.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

No sign of distress. That that's I love that because uh I don't think eating should be stressful. When we talk about healthy relationships with food, it shouldn't be a stressful thing. You shouldn't have high, high emotions, uh both positive or negative, and a lot of the the foods, the emotionality that comes with it. Um, my husband, Kevin, um, he will not eat bananas. Oh, really? But he once, like a little monkey, loved bananas. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Did he have a bad experience? He ate so many bananas that he just will never eat anymore. I think he ate so many that he actually threw up. Is that true? That is true. Okay, yeah. Oh wow. He ate so many bananas that he threw.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

So for the uh behavior analyst students out there, yeah, uh, that would be an abolishing operation. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Same exact thing happened with rural bars. Interesting. So some people get on a kick and and then it's like it's done. Or if you've had food poisoning, yes, right? I have been for poisoned by food. I have also been poisoned by food, not as recently. And I will never, I will never eat a tuna melt again. It will never touch my lips.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

I had to desensitize myself to salmon. I got sick on a salmon. Oh man, I just took a long time. But I thought, like, it's so healthy, and you know, I'm gonna work my way back. But I did. I used to work your way back. I did, I did, and now it's fine, but for a long time. Even looking at one, the smell, trying to take a bite, oof, nausea. Yeah, right. But yeah, that that's a quick way to become afraid of a food is to become very sick.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

And there's such a variety of food, and a lot of the foods still in the world are very unfamiliar to me. Like, what is that? Like at a buffet or I was like, what is that? Um in Detroit when I was 20, I think I got invited to a fancy party, you know, really fancy. And um, there were strawberries next to this like pinkish, uh pinkish, it looked like pink whipped cream. And so I thought it was like cool whip fruit dip. Yeah, right? Reasonable. Yeah, it was caviar, it was some type of caviar dip. So um I put a huge scoop. I took, I thought I knew what it was. I put a huge scoop on the plate, I dipped my strawberry in at the fancy party and was like, this is not cool happen. And then I slowly put my plate by my feet and I pushed it under their couch so I didn't have to eat it. But, you know, some foods, you know, the record, you know, things that are recognizable, they are comforting and they're comforting the kids, right? So, you know, comfort foods I think should play a big role, you know, in uh the daily routine of feeding individuals, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

And it's I think also it's really great to have that understanding for parents because I think sometimes parents go to school with their little kids packed lunch and receive a lot of judgment for what's inside. And sometimes those comfort foods are what is going to power that child through the day. And we work on the diet expansion at home, you know. So eventually the foods that we're working on when we become comfortable with them can go into that lunchbox. But I think there's a lot of um, there's a lot of blame that gets put on parents. Yeah. And it's it's so unnecessary.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And a lot of times it's from other parents or teachers, like you sent them with two bags of chips. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'll eat. Yeah, yeah. He likes chips. Yeah. I also sent a sandwich and some carrots and some celery if he wants to try it. Um, but yeah, in the in the PRT food expansion, once the child without any discomfort tries the food, uh, then that food should be regularly incorporated into their weekly diet.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah. And it really is a partnership with the family. I think your dogs are hearing that about food again.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

I know they're like, we love food. They're like, I'll eat the carrots, I'll be on this podcast. Call me in for my interview. They're all right there.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

But yeah, it is important to have that partnership with the family so that we understand, hey, this is where we are, this is what he did today. If maybe they didn't see it or maybe they weren't a part of it that day for whatever reason, then that way they can incorporate those foods in that lunch or in that family meal the next time. Um, because we can have all the success we want when it's one-to-one with the therapist and the child. Yeah. But it doesn't matter if that isn't being translated into the child's everyday life.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah. Generalized across people, generalized across settings. Yeah, absolutely. That's meaningful change. And that's one of the things that our science is so good at. Yes. Yeah. You know who doesn't have problems with food expansion is dogs. I heard I've read or I believe I learned in my sensation and perception psychology class with Dr. Theodore Bell that dogs have a certain enzyme which allows them to eat garbage.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

That would check out with my dogs. Um yeah, yeah, the things that they find on our hikes through the forest and choose to eat, it's astounding. Um, but I also noticed that if I so this morning I put out my dog's kibble for their breakfast and I also put a little yogurt in there because I'm pushover. And the Weimariner, who is very food motivated, is like eating right away. But the Vishla waits until I scoop the yogurt into his food bowl to start eating because he's spoiled.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Um or do we also do these do these rituals around these food? Does this add to some of the reinforcing properties of the food?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

I think it does. I think it does. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I I think maybe uh there's there's a safety component there too. Like I know I'm going to expect this routine to occur, and then I feel like I'm okay. But if I doesn't occur in that way, um eventually he'll eat the food because if he doesn't, then his brother, the Weimariner, will. Um, but I think I think if the Weimariner were not there, he probably wouldn't. He'd wait until that yogurt was put in there before he'd eat because that's his routine.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah. I have three dogs, three golden retrievers, and um they are absolutely food motivated, uh, of course. And uh one of them will eat street buggers, that's what we call them. They're just they'll just lick the street and it'll just drive my husband crazy. He doesn't want them to get sick. Uh, and they had such a song, strong sense of smell. Um a lot of times, uh, you know, with dogs, they will lick things that are absolutely not in their best interest.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, unlike you and I and our food poisoning experiences, I'm not convinced that my dog knows it was that trash I ate that's making me feel this way. I think that by the time it hits him, he's forgotten about the trash. And I'm sure he's looking for a reason, but he's not finding it.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

My little puppy, when we're on walks, she just leans over and bites random bushes and eats them. Just and just keeps going. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

It's a salad bar.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

I wonder if my big boy dog, Bu, named after B. F. Skinner. You know, uh, I wondered, I asked this of my husband uh last week. I was like, Do you think this dog, if he had unlimited food, would eat himself to death? And Kevin said no, but I was like, no, I think it would.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Well, I I have experienced something similar. So really not my current Weimariner, but the previous Weimariner back when I was single and it was just me and Lyle uh in an apartment in Costa Mesa. I had I kept his food in a little locked, like metal locker from IKEA, and it had the key in it. That's how you opened it. It didn't have like a lift or a you know, any sort of handle that you pull. I thought he can't turn a lock with his mouth. He's a dog. He's a dog. He can't turn a lock. And I so I, you know, would leave the key in the lock, but it's closed. And one day I came home and the key was on the ground and had like a bite mark on it, but the thing didn't open, so I thought, ha, still can't unlock it. But I still left the key in the lock. And then the next day I came home to carnage.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And he's like, I learned how to open it, mom.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

He opened it and he ate an entire bag of food, and it was like he ate a bunch and then he'd throw up, and then like stuff was all over the place. It was terrible. But I I told this story to a friend, and like, can you imagine how he felt that moment when the lock turned and the door opened and how happy he must have been. And that kind of made me feel a little better. But yeah, uh yeah, I don't know. I I think I think that they probably would not be able to eat themselves to death like a goat can. I don't know if they can expand that much without throwing up.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Sorry for all the vomit talk today.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I have, you know, I would come home from school and my parents both work, so I would be alone in the house. And this did not lead to healthy food eating habits. I mean, it would be like, I'm gonna have a spoonful of hot fudge, I'm gonna eat this whi uh this uh cool whip out of the container. And then when it would come dinner time, my mom was like, You're not gonna eat your dinner. Like, oh no.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

No, no, I don't need that anymore. Exactly. I I actually um my husband's very food motivated. And every year when it's time to get his flu shot, we make a deal. He gets the shot and then he gets to choose whatever lunch he wants.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And you know, not to say that creamak. Yes, exactly. It works. Not to say that I restrict his lunch choices regularly, but it's worked. He's gotten that flu shot every year we've been married.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

So yeah. We do um to our family, not just our children, but our family and our husbands and our loved ones, we do also really want them to be healthy too, right? And science is really saying that eating like, you know, these prebiotic fibrous foods is really great for health.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah, well and vitality. High fiber, high protein, lots of uh fruits and vegetables. But I I don't know that it's I I always find this kind of funny because I think as adults, most of us, if not all of us, know like, hey, this is a healthy choice, and this is maybe not such a healthy choice. Um, but it's making that shift to to make that healthy choice over the maybe more appealing, maybe more accessible, lesser healthy choice. But I also don't want to get so focused on that that uh I don't enjoy anything. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

You can't eliminate like I like chocolate. I love chocolate. You know, if you eliminate chocolate, scientifically the value of that piece of chocolate is gonna go sky. That's all you'll think about. Yeah. So it really Is about moderation and balance. Absolutely. And speaking of that, we grew up with the food pyramid, right? Yes. The sorry. The Illuminati way to eat food. Yes. Yeah, but that's now changed quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, so it's it's been through a lot of changes. It then went to the plate, right? Where the you had like half of your plate should be veggies and fruit and then a little bit of um proteins and carbs. Um and now there has been a recent change. We're back to the pyramid, but it's configured more like this.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Like a V?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Like a like an upside down.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Like an upside down. We've tried to we flipped it on its head.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah, it's like a piece of pizza now. Oh, I like that. Well, emphasizing more of uh the proteins and dairy. Um I would actually really like to talk to a dietitian about what they think about that because there's a lot of sort of religiosity in what we talk about diet, like people that swear about keto is the way to go, or vegan is the only way to eat, or Mediterranean, which there is a lot of data for Mediterranean. But you know, there's all these different diets and there's belief systems that support them and that we engage in and that we think this is the only way to eat. Um I don't really think that's true, but I would really be interested in getting a registered dietitian's take on that. So registered dietitians out there, give us a call. Yeah, we we know a few.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

We do. Yes, yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, I think it really comes down to the joy, you know. You know, we don't put out a lot of those foods in our house. So we do have the cakes, the cupcakes, we do have things like that around the holidays and you know, um, but we also try to have healthy options. It's so funny. If there's an apple and a cupcake, I'm going for the cupcake. Yeah, you know, yeah. It's uh it's hard to always go for the apple. It is, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

And but that I think is the the bottom line is it doesn't always have to be the apple.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

It doesn't. It doesn't always have to be the apple. It can be the cupcake. It can be the cupcake if it's balanced, they can coexist.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yes. In a peaceful manner. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

But you're right. Um, parents, there is a lot of judgment.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yeah, I I think it's just an additional stressor. I I just have so much compassion for these parents and going out of their way to dedicate their lives to supporting these kids. And it's not always easy. But hopefully, you know, we can be a part of making that little better.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Absolutely. Watching watching it learn and grow is crucial, expanding diet. Yeah. I ate a cherry Christine, I ate a blueberry. Wasn't there a case where you were cutting blueberries up into oh yeah, tiny pieces?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, yeah. So you going back to like the smallest acceptable amount to just get started. But he ended up eating those blueberries whole toward the end. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

The pivotal response treatment really has incorporated fruits and vegetables into uh our clients' diets in a very positive and joyful way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

And it should be fun. It's food. Right? We should have a good time with it rather than it being something to be afraid of.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah, that's the healthy mindset around it.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Except bananas. Oh no. That's so sad. One more thing about food.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Halloween.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

My favorite holiday. Yes. Hands down.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Halloween. Yeah. We have we seem to, you know, in the calendar in the 365 dates, we have these days of gorging on food. And not always the best foods, right? Oh, yeah. Not always the best foods. So when you were um uh did you go trick-or-treating when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Absolutely. I looked forward to it for months. Yeah. I had my costume, I had my little orange bucket, and I was ready to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Well, you know, uh we just used our pillowcases. Oh, that's what does that fill them up complete with candy. Yeah. Yeah. And then how much candy would you eat?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

I had full rain of not only the bucket, but um, I grew up in a small town in Iowa, so they just kind of throw me outside and off I'd go. And um, oh, the freedom, the costumes, the spooky music, I everything about it. I loved it. But the best part was you come home with a bucket of cand of candy that is not restricted in any fashion by your parents. And I, yeah, I hoarded it in my closet and I would um, it was like a ritual like I'm gonna choose the best piece. Oh, yeah, and I'm gonna go eat it over here in the corner where no one can see me. It was wonderful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, I I think there's days during November where I must have had 30 pieces of candy in one day. I'm like, wow. I mean, I would just eat it and eat it and eat it. I I do like sugar.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, I I yeah, I hear you on that front. Yeah, and I think it's important to allow those celebrations and to have those moments if you can. Maybe some kids don't like that too. I know Halloween actually can be really hard for a lot of our clients because this costume is itchy, and who is that? And what's that sound? I don't want to then yeah, I don't want to ask for candy, I just want to get it, or I don't want to even be here. I want to go home and watch television or whatever I would usually do. Um, but that's sort of the fun about these things, right? Is there's a freedom to do it in your way. I hope that our clients are out there having a great Halloween every fall because I loved it so much. Um, but if not, that's cool too. You know, there's a lot of celebrate that. It's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

But I think the joy around food, I think that that's a really important piece of that healthy relationship with different foods is being joyful. Absolutely and having positive experiences around a large variety of food. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then you'll try new foods.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

That's true. You're more likely to, I think. Um, and for some kids, like having that social component is key. Yeah. Right. Like I see my friends doing this thing and they're enjoying it. So maybe I'll try it and maybe I'll like it. Um and maybe not, right? But at least it's a it's a healthy connection not only to food but other people. And really that's a big part of health is having that social part of your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Absolutely. But in moderation, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you and I, we um we have had so many successes that we have um toasted um many glasses champagne. Oh, another thing that I really love. Yes. But this January we uh decided we took a little pack and we decided that we weren't going to um do that. Slept better, felt more focused. Oh, did feel more focused for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, and alcohol is one of those things that it there's really no benefit health-wise. Um but again, like you don't live like a monk if you don't want to. Absolutely it's okay to have a glass of wine once in a while for some people. For some people, yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

But did that state of deprivation of not having it, did it make you want it more? Because in my case, it didn't. No, that's great. Yeah. In my case, I was like, oh, this is just this is fine too.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, yeah, I have I have replacements. So pomegranate juice is one that I really like. It looks like a glass of wine. Yeah. You know, like St. Pellegrino is bubbly. Right. Yeah. Some olipops. Those are pretty good. Um, yeah, I I had done a long stretch with no wine a few years back. I went, I think 50 days, and that first glass of wine after 50 days was great. Well, that's that stated deprivation. Yeah, it smelled amazing, like it looked really good. Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I I think um yeah, alcohol is is one of those things. Like I I wish it were true that it's I wish it was a health benefit.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

There's no there's no health, it's not on the fit. Pyramid, no, no, yeah, yeah. So very rarely. Very rarely, yeah. Okay. Um anything else on food expansion. I just I think I just want to emphasize to remove the blame. Yeah. Remove the blame, have compassion. And take your time. And highly individualized, empower individuals. Don't force. Absolutely. If you're forcing food, you're doing something wrong. Yeah, that's that's how unhealthy relationships with food are formed, I think. Me too. Yeah. Well, we agree. As usual.

unknown 31:15

Let your positive energy radiate outwards for the whole world to see.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I see your positive energy. Yes, I see yours. Well, thanks for joining us at Acorns to Oaks. We had a lot of fun talking about food today. Hell yeah, we did. Look forward to speaking to you again. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions or comments, and be sure to hit that subscribe button when you get a chance.