The Science of Friendship | Social Skills, Bullying, and the PEERS Program

Kristine and Sarah discuss social skills, friendship development, bullying, cyberbullying, and the UCLA PEERS® program for autistic teens and young adults.

This episode explores:

•  how friendships actually form 
•  socially rejected vs socially neglected profiles 
•  common interests and connection 
•  meaningful friendship 
•  social isolation 
•  parent support 
•  direct social skills instruction 
•  online safety and cyberbullying 

An insightful conversation about why social connection matters deeply for long-term happiness and emotional well-being.

Many people assume social skills are something children naturally “pick up,” but research and clinical experience show that social interaction is often a teachable skill set.

This episode discusses the UCLA PEERS® program, which approaches friendship scientifically through direct instruction, rehearsal, modeling, and real-world practice.

The conversation also challenges some traditional advice often given to children, such as:

•  forcing introductions 
•  “just go tell a teacher” 
•  assuming shared diagnoses automatically create friendships 
•  believing social success should happen naturally 

Kristine and Sarah discuss how meaningful friendship is built through common interests, psychological safety, shared experiences, and gradual connection over time.

Acorns to Oaks is presented by Nurture & Nature ABA, providing compassionate ABA therapy and parent support in Valley Village and the San Fernando Valley.

Learn more or schedule a consultation: nurtureandnatureaba.com

Follow Nurture & Nature on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for individualized clinical care.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome back. Uh, I'm Christine and I'm Sarah. And this is Acorns to Oaks. We are both board-certified behavior analysts. There you go. And Sarah's also a nurse practitioner. That's right. And today we're going to talk about a subject that we adore. Absolutely love. That's right. And that is social skills. Yes. And the importance not just for autistic peoples, um, but actually for all peoples, because we are social creatures, humans. And um, you know, PRT epival response treatment and Lynn and Bob Cagle did some really interesting research about happiness outcomes and how um social skills, having friends, having a community around you of people that you can laugh, smile, and connect with um makes a big difference in meaningful outcomes of life. That's true. It also makes a big difference in just general health and well-being. So it's very important to have some social skills so that you can build those relationships. And it's funny because other than your parents saying, like, don't say that, be polite. Like they're really not teaching social skills directly to kids. And that's not true. Often what they do teach is like the wrong thing. Go introduce yourself. Uh, I I can't think of any time that I have walked up to a group of strangers and said, Hi, I'm Sarah. What they would uh respond with, but my guess is that they would just slowly sidestep away. Like, hi, Sarah. Hi. Yeah. Yeah. So there's an excellent program called Parent Education and Enrichment of Relational Skills or Peers. And it is phenomenal. Elizabeth Loggison, Fred Frankel, UCLA research, I think from close to 20 years ago, maybe I guess so. Yeah. But some great research that came out of that that really uh stands in opposition to some of the things that we've been taught. Absolutely. And has been extremely helpful. I think what I really love about it, so it's based on the premise that maybe social skills aren't something that you're just born with. You're just really amazing at speaking to other people and really great at building relationships, but maybe it's a skill set that can be taught. And through this program, I think we've seen that it can. And it it has actually really benefited my own social skills. I have to say that. It has for me as well, um, particularly in the area of self-advocacy and working through arguments and uh, you know, just really life, lifelong stuff. It's the science of making friends. Yes. Right. So they took a scientific approach to why do we connect with other people? And from a scientific viewpoint, and a lot of what they found is that relationships are based in a lot of common interests. That's right. And the more common interests you have with individuals, the more reinforcing, the more you're drawn to them, the more you're gonna have things to talk about and things to do together. So that's a big part of friendship. And I think really a cool thing, and I think about my husband with this one, because he struggled socially when he was young until he found a theater community where he could run all the speakers and work backstage running the sound, which he does for a living now. But he has mentioned how getting involved in that theater community was where he first started to learn to have friendships. And isn't that so true if you think back on your own life, how you've met people that have been a big part of your life and have uh been great friends, really starts often with a common interest. Absolutely. And you know, I love peers because the research of the science of making friends has been remarkable. Um, one of the things that they teach, and we're both certified in that. We got certified, and we got the chance to meet the amazing Dr. Elizabeth Loggison. And um, she is most phenomenal in every way. And her team. Yes. I have not met Dr. Frankel. I have not either, but um, he started it with these groups at UCLA, and um, I love how she says in her book and during the certification course: friendship is a choice. Not everyone gets to be friends with you, and you don't get to be friends with everyone. And that's such a valuable lesson. I hear myself saying that to my clients all the time when, you know, when they're dealing with social rejection or when they really want hyperfixated on one person to be their friend. Yeah, you know, just coming back to like it's a choice. Yeah. Yeah. And anytime they're having trouble maybe with a friend they already have. If they're having too many negative experiences, it's time to make that choice. Do you want to keep engaging with this person? Or maybe it's time to move on and meet other people. I think that that's so helpful, especially for our clients that maybe see things sometimes in a kind of black and white way. Um, a lot of her program has that. And you know, she really targets two areas of social skills deficit. One is sort of socially withdrawn, and the other one is more socially forward. Yes. So socially neglected or socially rejected. Those are the two that she talks about being very common amongst the population that we work with. Yeah. And there's also a video modeling component, which uh we got to see in real time, and we've done peers um that kids really are drawn to because in the video modeling component, and this is so true, they show the bad example. And I don't know what it is about kids seeing the bad example, but they love it. Yeah. They love when, you know, the video of people talking too close or asking too many questions or talking too loudly, or like, you know. Yeah, it's it's really helpful, I think, to illustrate for them the point we're trying to make. And then they get it. And I think that's what's so exciting is like, I see what she's doing wrong. I see it. Yes, you know, I think it's really fun. They get to call out the uh the sort of presenters. Um, but the structure of the program is pretty unique. It is uh both parents and um their children or young adults. Um, at least when we were certified. Now there's, I think uh UCLA has for early intervention as well.

unknown 6:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

But we were certified in young adults, um, teenagers and adolescents. Teenagers and adolescents, yes. And um, we would meet weekly. Uh, there's 16 or 17 lessons, depending on if you're gonna include the sex education. Yeah, so there's uh 14 sessions unless you're doing the dating portion. Then there's 16. Yeah, yeah. But excellent, really, across the board. I I have benefited so much from their work and being able to share that with clients and their families. Really cool. And it's empirically based. So it does have replication. Um, and there's a lot of big data behind that, that empirically based, evidence-based uh social skills program. And because there's not a lot of that. There's not a lot, no, which is unfortunate because it's such an important part of life. Um, I really love the work that they've done and it's been translated into so many different languages. So it's really gone global, which is so cool. Um, but yeah, I I think, you know, think about your best friend or think about your group of friends and how it makes you feel to have those people that you can call them if you need someone to talk to or just someone to laugh with and hang out with, and how crucial that is to your life. Um, I love that there is this program and this approach that can help our clients have that in their lives if they so desire. Yeah. And teaching social skills in general is pretty phenomenal. But peers, um, you know, they their research is so great, and it really changed my perspective on sort of how we approach bullying. Absolutely. Yeah. So, first of all, just even teaching this is bullying, this is teasing, um, what that can entail. The role of humor. The role of humor, yeah. It goes into the role of humor, um, how we're laughing together with or laughing at, yeah, sort of teaches in a discriminatory way. Um and bullying is such a great point because I think that's one of the examples of how we have taught kids wrong. Not we, but we as a society have taught kids the wrong thing of go tell someone. Yeah, right. Um, so that's for verbal bullying. Right. So if a child is getting verbally bullied at school, the traditional response is go tell teacher. Well, going to tell the teacher makes you a bigger target. Yeah. So that child might get in trouble for doing the bullying, but they're not gonna stop. And when that teacher's not looking, that bully's gonna up his game. Yeah. Yeah. So the important thing to do there is first not get upset. Say something really quick to show that well, you thought whatever that person said to you was kind of stupid, and then leave. And the examples, it was like a quick witty comeback, drop it, might drop it, and then walk away. So some of the examples were like, Oh, do you need attention? Yeah, like why are you trying to be funny? Yeah, I thought they were so being a valley girl, I thought the scenes were so valley girl-ish. Yeah. Like, whatever, you know, like, okay, like, yeah. Um yeah, so quick comebacks. Um, there's also some great strategies in terms of pairing up. Yep, don't be alone. Don't be alone. If you're by yourself, you're an easy target. So if you know, if you're gonna walk somewhere in the hallway, one, you might want to avoid the person that's been picking on you, and the other is you want to travel in a group because they're less likely to do that if you're in a group. Yeah. But since technology has been evolving so rapidly, which is so exciting, I I love it that it's evolving. I I love the entire breadth of what I've seen of technology from Pong now to where we're at, it's been uh a breathtaking journey. And it and I'm still so curious. But now we really have a lot of intense cyber bullying happening. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I and I think when that occurs, yeah, tell an adult. Yeah, well, and don't delete it, is what they say. They say print it out, don't delete it, make sure you have a record. Um, I this is a little bit of a sidebar, but I think age limits on social media are wise. We have seen what social media has done to young people. It's just not good for their mental health. But it is important to have these safety skills when you're online to know when it's okay to talk to someone, you know, to make sure that you're not opening yourself up to someone that is maybe looking to do you harm. Um, and when it comes to bullying, making sure you're keeping your record and that you're then following through. Yeah. Yeah. And because, you know, um, we just had a great presentation uh about this at Nurture in Nature done by one of our clinical directors. And I really liked the analogy she used. It's like, you know, when Christine was growing up, um, you know, they would be like, There's a stranger at the door, don't answer, don't talk to strangers, don't open the door. Be like, mom's not home, go away. You know, like, you know, we'd be trained to say that or don't talk to strangers. Um, with you know, social media and a lot of these things, the kids are just opening the doors. And like it might be appear to be a child, but it's not. It could be a predator. And so there really is the importance of teaching that uh internet safety. Yes. And Pierce does tap into that a little bit, which is vital. Yeah. Yeah. To kids that have maybe social delays or don't recognize all the social cues. Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also um I think really helpful small things too, like reach out twice and then don't reach out anymore, right? Oh, yeah. So the science of making friends. Yeah, we're not leaving, you know, 50 emails or text messages or voicemails. Um, we are just doing a couple times we're reaching out, and if they don't respond, okay, we're moving on. I think that's really helpful for a lot of our teens and young adults. Like the rate of responding, right? So and we see this a lot in the dating world as well. Yeah, in which it does teach dating skills, which would have been so helpful to so many of my junior high classmates. Um, but how to, you know, put together a get together and what the meaning of the get together is and basing it on common interests. But really, it builds. And the first uh chapter is just exchanging information. Yeah, it's understanding different types of relationships. What is a friend, what is a peer, uh, exchanging information. So learning this very simple pattern of communication where you're sharing information about yourself, you're asking about the other person and seeing if you have things in common. And so, like not asking too many questions, not policing the conversation, right? Sharing the experience of time between two people, and ultimately getting towards a common interest. Yes. So asking those open-ended questions that aren't necessarily about yourself, but are indeed about um things that you might jointly have in common. Yeah. Yeah. And then what's your favorite movie? Exactly. Yeah. Or, you know, do you like this sport? Right. So it opens the door for then further communication and activity and connection down the line. It's really an exciting approach. And I think it's so simple to learn. And I wish I had had that when I was younger as well. Me too. Also, I like how do you approach someone? How do you approach a group? How do you introduce yourself? And it isn't like right off the bat, like it's often told by our parents, like, go introduce yourself, go say hi, my name is. No, we want to listen first, see if this group is talking about something that you actually care about. Like, do you really even want to talk to these people? Waiting for a little pause and then making an on-topic comment or asking a question. Um, it's it's kind of a um gentle art, really, to get involved in a group. And then seeing if you're accepted in the group. And and Logason really does this so well when she's like, you know, if they open their bodies from the circle and allow you to physically come into the space, you are accepted into conversation. Yeah, sign of acceptance. If they're talking to you, if they're listening to you, um, what's their tone? Are they turning away from you? Are they looking at their friend and laughing? These are all little cues that our clients need to learn so that they can have those really fun interactions with people and not be so excluded all the time. And I I really needed to learn them too. You know, I'm always learning and growing and improving, but you know, I'm known to drop the the non sequitur, like, you know, to change the conversation. You know, my husband's always giving me that critique of like, we've talked about 50 things in three minutes. I'm so confused, you know. Um, but actually with our husbands, you know, we didn't know if they were going to get along. Yeah. We knew that we got along really well and had so many things in common. That's true. Um, but they did find a common interest of film, and we ended up going to the Sundance Film Festival. So much fun. And they did have a really good time. Yeah. Scott talks about it a lot. He really had a lot of fun. So, really based on common interests. Another common interest is dogs. Yes. Yes. Yes. Both Kevin, Milo and Scott really love love dogs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you when you get form get togethers, if you can form it around dogs, movies, right? You know, eating seafood. That's right. Those are all common interests. Yeah. And I think it's helpful too for our clients to know well, where will I meet someone that I that I like? And then learning to find groups and events that are based on your own interests. So it'll be fun for you anyway. But then when you get there, there will be people that that identify with you. And I think that's really cool. Yeah. And in the peers research, they actually break down the groups of like jocks, yeah, nerds, bronies, right? Yeah. And like emos, punks, and like jocks. And like they went. And um, that was also enlightening too, because I was like, oh, I had no idea. That would have been particularly helpful, I think, for me in high school, because it seems like at least during that time, people would wear the uniform, right? Yeah. You would you would see them and know, like, that's a goth, that's a preppy, that's a jock, that's a dancer, right? So they they kind of advertised, uh, whether they knew it or not. Like, this is the kind of person that I am, and these are the things I'm interested in. So to be able to identify that is really helpful. Yeah. Because if you know someone likes sports, right? So that's something that I don't know if Scott and Kevin are husbands, have that in common. They do not.

unknown 18:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

But Kevin loves sports. Yeah. But um, you know, he's not going to pontificate on sports with Scott because he knows it's not a common interest. And that's really important too, right? Is that recognizing that yeah, you we have some things in common, but maybe there's some things that we don't have in common, but that doesn't mean like friendship over. It just means like, hey, we'll connect on these things and not so much on these things. Because sportsing, as my husband calls it, sportsing, I love that. It's not the same as being a football fan. Yes. And, you know, I'm married to a fanatic. Yes. Yes, yeah. So uh big differences, but still able to connect on on things. And I think, you know, asking those social questions, actually taking this back to Bob and Lynn Cagle and PRT and the ability to ask questions, not about ourselves, like, you know, not like, did you see my mug? How's my hair? Do you like my tap? Do you like my shoes? Like, yeah, not about that, but more open-ended to gather information. Yeah. And at that age, I really like to focus it on an activity. So, where what's your favorite color? That's a question, but what are you gonna do with that information? Right? It's not necessarily that helpful for most kids unless you're like doing an art project and you can handle something in it. It's gonna be like, let's talk about the 50 shades of purple, my favorite color. Yeah, yeah. So it's and it's fun because you can reinforce it with access to that activity, then, right? Um, I want to play this game. Oh, do you does your friend like it? Go ask. Yeah. And then they can play it together. And that's naturally reinforcing, and it's a lot of fun, and it will be built upon over time. Um, and multiple sources of friends, right? That's another thing that peers teaches parents actually is how to find sources of friends. Yeah. Because um, you should have multiple sources of friends. You have work friends, you have church friends, you have the Boy Scouts, you have the baseball team, you have meetups, you have, you know, charity work. And at each one of these places, you can develop sources of friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and people that you can connect with those certain activities that you really like, you know. Um, so if you do have a friend that loves the movies but hates the football game, maybe you'll have a friend that doesn't really like the movies but really likes the football game, right? You'll have more options of people you can connect with in different settings. And then how to design get togethers and sort of also how to romance the friendship. Yeah. Because, like we said in the beginning, there can be, what did you call it? It's like socially a service. Socially rejected and socially neglected. Yeah. So socially rejected would be the ones that are super outgoing and are trying really hard, but are always shut down and and maybe made fun of. Yeah, and they talk too much. They talk too much, maybe they say the wrong things, they get too close, they're butting in, they're policing. Yeah. They, you know, might drop the conversations, they change topics. Yeah. So those would be your socially rejected. Um, where your socially neglected may just come off as like really shy, like they don't really interact with anyone, they're not really trying to interact with anyone, and people just, it's like they they don't exist, they're just completely ignored. Um, so both have challenges in connecting, but come from a very different point and in terms of understanding how to approach people and how to engage with them. Yeah. And peers really gives you that science based approach. Um, I think it's been close to 10 years since I've been certified. I I also I think I got mine in 2016. Yeah. And I, you know, there there's so many wonderful things about it, and so many things that I personally Learned about social skills.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah. Practicing the skills as well. That's another thing that Piers has. Um, is that you have a quick little lesson. Um, the parents are in another room learning about homework. Like they're gonna make a phone call, they're gonna text, and you know, how are their boundaries coming in terms of how often are they texting an individual? Right. So, like how are they interacting in their groups? If they're in, you know, tennis or they're in art or they're in something based on an interest. Are they attending? Do they seem to be having fun? Um, I find it really interesting when I meet a new teen. Often they'll tell me, yeah, I have friends, and they'll list off a long list of names, and then I'll speak with the parent and say, Hey, they said these people were their friends. And no, those are just people that they have met, right? So even just learning what a friend is really helpful through the peers program. Yeah, yeah. And I know a whole generation really um almost got disillusioned with this idea of like, well, I have friends on Facebook, yeah, or I have friends on social media, and um peers really defines what meaningful friendship is, people that will be there for you, care about you, um, people you enjoy being with and who enjoy being with you.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And both give in the relationship. Yeah. Because sometimes we really see uh the people that are pro-social but are rejected. Sometimes we can see them become taken advantage of. Like my, you know, and we hear about this in treatment sometimes. It's like my friend um asked to give asked me to give him $20. Yeah. Or my my I brought my, you know, toy to school and my friend took it, and then the next day he said he got the toy from his mom. Yeah. And, you know, sort of that pure conflict or being taken advantage of, and stealing, and that falls under the category of bullying, um, actual physical bullying. So it yeah, it's really for our our clients to desperately want to have friends sometimes and will really do almost anything to have a connection with someone. It does put them in a position where they're often taken advantage of. And that socially rejected peer often is the one that's being bullied the most because it's so clear that they want to interact and they're putting themselves out there constantly. Where the socially neglected one, you know, they they don't really, I think, get noticed much at all. Um yeah. And um, you know, another thing about this remarkable program is that um it teaches you that uh when you have a get together and sort of how a friendship builds slowly over time. Yeah. And so, you know, the socially rejected individual or the person that really wants to make friends, and I can relate to them because I was that person, you know, I was like, oh, you know, if I could only go back and tell the eight-year-old Christine, like, you're enough, you know. Sometimes when they they want something so badly, um, not only can they be taken advantage of, but they can police their peers, right? So they they want the attention, the engagement so much that they'll be like, your watch is wrong, your shoes untied, your hair is messy in the back. Yeah, like they'll start policing. Yeah, and I think it comes out of a desire to be helpful. Like I don't think that yeah, that it's really recognized by the person is like, oh, I'm I'm policing someone. I thought I was just giving them some guidance. Like, well, I don't want them to get in trouble, but you're not allowed to do this, that, and that. You're not allowed to chew gum, you're not allowed to do this, you know. And so, like, really, you know, telling the rules and the other thing is asking like re like really intimate questions too quickly. Yeah, too sensitive of information. Yeah, yeah. That's something that you know, you may be curious about someone, you may want to know those things, but you have to understand how uncomfortable it makes them to be asked something very personal, very quickly. That it's um it's very risky is the way the peers kind of um like if you're like, you know, are you a virgin? Have you ever kissed a boy? Like what what kind of underwear do you wear? Like questions about health, questions about family relationships. Yeah, yeah. And adults see this at parties sometimes, and you're like, Wow, I gotta go find my husband at the time. I just remembered I have to be somewhere that's not here. Yeah. When you meet an individual, and there's just, you know, you it it takes time to get to know someone, and that that's an art in itself. It is, it is. There's a lot of nuance that I think Piers makes really clear, which is really helpful. Um, but yeah, you were talking about the structure. So there's a quick lesson. Oh, yeah. Then there's a rehearsal of the skill that you just learned. Yeah, really. Behavioral rehearsal, uh, another empirical-based strategy where it's like, let's practice. Yeah, let's give it a try. And a safe environment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that's been really great with the clients that we've had in our program. And then you'll have a little homework that's fun at the end. And the parents will help support that. So it's just such a great model. I really enjoy using it. We're doing it right now. Um, hopefully we'll keep going. Yeah. And it's really important for um, you know, children and adults uh who may be autistic. Um, because, you know, some of our really early research from Lynn and Bob Cagle really say that um sometimes when a parent has a child that's diagnosed with a disability, um, it is the worst day of their life. And I talked to thousands of parents at this point where they tell me, Christine, that was the worst day of my life. And yeah, you know, um, sometimes there is social isolation where they don't want to go out into the community because if there's challenges, right? And they don't want to go forth and tell uh their social community or their friends about the diagnosis because there could be shame. Um, and then you know, social isolation of the parent can lead to social isolation of the child. That's right, because parents are modeling all the time. Um, and and I think that's really common, even in some of the feeding research that we've discussed. Like if if you're having trouble with different types of foods, going to a social event that's based on food, which many of them are, it's really uncomfortable. So parents will just stop going altogether, and that reduces again the social modeling for that child and the social opportunities for that child. So um and social isolation is based or community isolation is what I think the cagles call it, um, directly correlates to depression. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll if you are interested in the topic of isolation, you know, there's been a lot of studies of um people in prison being put into isolation for, you know, certain periods of time and what that does to their health, the health and mental health deterioration that occurs when you are alone. Um severe. So going back to how we opened up this topic, which is we are human and we are social creatures. We are not meant to live in isolation. Um, we need to connect with other people. Absolutely. And that can mean different things for different people. For some people, that means I have one really good friend. For some, that means I have five. For some, that means I have 10, right? Um, and that's okay. But just having the skill set that you can have those things should you want them, really crucial. Yeah. And then friendship is a choice. That's right. Not everyone gets to be friends with you, and you don't have to be friends with everyone. You can choose. And I think that's also a really important for adults because there can be people that have been your friends for a while, and then boundaries need to be set. You know, it's like and things change too, and that's such a change and common interests change, and you know, velocities of people change, and and um yeah, but social skills are important for all of us. Absolutely. I learned so much from from peers, me too. Yeah, yeah. I continue to learn from it, you know. Every time we do it, I take away some new piece that I hadn't thought of before. So it's really fun. And also just seeing it applied and seeing first friendships happen is one of my favorite things about what we do. Yeah, especially when the common interests might be a little egocentric or like different, you know. Um, we have a very diverse culture here in Los Angeles, and I'm so blessed to be a part of it and and to learn more about it. But it's like um just niche little like toys or niche little, you know, comics that people can connect on or niche. And you know, just uh different um different facts or different um subjects like space or race cars or flowers, you know, like that you can know everything about that to find someone else who also is really interested in that thing is such a light balled moment of oh, this is actually fun. I I actually like talking to other people. Right. Yeah, and a bond is formed. I mean, that's like the more common interest, the more reinforcement from our conversation. So, like there's a therapist and he's like, I'm really into succulents. It's like so am I, I'm very much into succulents, and like we can continuously connect on different species of succulents where you couldn't have those conversations with everybody. No, you know, not everyone's gonna know about thousands of you know, subspecies of succulents. That's so cool. Yeah, so like really nichey connections, you know, and then you get to meet really special people and uh you get to choose if you want them to be your friend, and you start with a get together. And yeah, why don't you come over and look at my succulents? You know, hey, sounded naughty. I wasn't gonna say anything. I know it did sound a little naughty bit, yeah. But, anyways, um at a scale of one to ten, how likely are you to recommend peers? Oh, ten, hands down. Yeah, ten out of ten. It's pretty exceptional research, really fascinating and and so accessible and supportive, and over a relatively short period of time, and we see long-term gains. Yeah, and the parent component is really wonderful too. It's uh, you know, it teaches like you can't force your child to be friends with another child. Yeah. Like even if it's your bestie, you know, it's like friendship's a choice. So a lot of times parents are like, Well, he likes this kid, but I don't like the parents, so it's not gonna work, you know. The other thing I come across a lot is, well, this other kid has a similar disability, so they're gonna get, you know, they're gonna like each other. And a disability is not an interest. It is so not a interest, yeah. Parents, I think, really struggle with that. They think like, well, I'll find someone with the same diagnosis and they'll be more accepting, I think is what they're thinking of. So it's really eye-opening for the parent as well to see, oh, wait, actually, it's based on interest, not on a demographic. And then it there's also it's also based a lot on uh slow baby steps and psychological safety. Yeah. And moving from an acquaintance to when someone is a friend. And then the meaningful acts of friendship. Yeah. Meaning, is this a meaningful friendship and how to determine that? Yeah. Yeah. No one ever teaches you that. That should be a class in junior high. It really should. I are they really your friend? Or yeah. How do you know they're really your friend? Is it are they meaningful? Yeah, yeah. You know, because very good. Adolescents can be tough. I think it's tough for everybody. It really is tough for everybody. But then when you put on maybe some social skills deficits, um, that direct teaching instruction is crucial to bridge that gap. Absolutely. At least it bridged the gap for me. Me too. All right. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Um, I think it's fair to say that Piers is a common interest. It is, I think, a common love affair. I mean so I do love Piers. I do too. I do. I'm so grateful for Dr. Logison and Dr. Frankel for their research and bringing that to UCLA and um pretty remarkable stuff. And continuing to help people through the Tarzan Center there in LA, too. Yeah, yeah, she's great. Well, that's Acorns to Oaks on Peers. Definitely uh do it, get certified. It's worthy, I say. Absolutely 10 out of 10. I think you can also find Peers providers online on their database through their website. So 10 out of 10, check it out.